Comments for the week ending October 14, 2002

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**Gathering-related announcement**

The site for the gathering 2003 is now up:
http://gathering.gargoyles-fans.org/index.html

registration will be up shortly, as well.

**
Lynati
Sunday, October 13, 2002 11:47:49 PM
IP: 65.66.157.158

I was wondering how much hard drive space the whole series takes on your machine. I have the whole series on a 40 Gigabyte hard drive and it is taking up a whopping 17.1 gigabytes.
Gray Wolf
Sunday, October 13, 2002 10:06:40 PM
IP: 195.167.64.193

Eric> "Just making sure everyone starts perparing for Halloween. Especially since Toon Disney is going to air _ALL_THE_EPISODES of Gargoyles back-to-back!"

I've already got the VCR programmed. :) I learned to use the VCR timer specifically for this purpose (and ran a number of tests, of course). Of course, I WANTED to just watch them all, one after the other, and try to do what Mooncat's doing (sheer insanity even more so because I've never been able to sit down for more than a couple of hours at once with nothing but a TV to occupy me) . . . but the fact is, my sister sleeps in the room where the TV is (and I sleep there, too), so I had to figure a way around that.

But yes. :) I'm even mapping out already how I think they're all going to fit. So . . . yes, I'm definately getting ready.

I'm only able to do VHS, but it's good enough for my purposes; it's not like I've got the equipment to do screencapping or whatnot, anyway.


Airwalker> Yes, I'd like to see some of the old commercials, too . . . 'cause I didn't get to see them the first time. At least, I don't think so. I might've in passing, but I hardly remember any of the episodes from back then . . .

(Although now I'm remembering a Gargoyles meal-pail I got from McDonalds once upon a time and wishing I'd kept it; oh, well.)



Heh . . . only fifteen days 'till it starts. Hehe. ^^
Lady Baltimore
MD, USA
Sunday, October 13, 2002 06:14:19 PM
IP: 199.183.161.221

MOONCAT - You wrote: [Toon Disney does run commercials, mores the pity. But that is an excellent excuse to actually sit and WATCH the episodes and take out the commercials manually]

On the bright side the GARGOYLES commericals that they have been running recently (or to be more specific the only GARGOYLES commercial that they are running at this point) is a pretty good one - if not on par with the original syndication run commericals then at least it comes pretty close.

(I'd love to get it on tape; in fact I'd love to get my hands on Quicktime, AVI, or MPEGs of the original run commericals. I have yet to come across more than one while searching the net. It would be nice if someone would happen to have copies of the commericals and manages to put them up somewhere.)

The rest of Toon Disney's commercials though with maybe one or two more exceptions are pretty much crap - they will never be able to appeal to an older demographic as long as they maintain the type of commericals that they currently have on the channel. CN level commericals are the only way to go.

You wrote: [I think I'm going to try. Sheer madness...]

I recorded the Toon Disney run of GARGOYLES when it was originally showing and when they were definitely showing them in order. (Nowadays they tend to show chunks of the show in order - Season 1 followed sometimes by a leap to M.I.A through HUNTERS MOON 3 and then back to LEADER OF THE PACK and so on and so forth.) I sat through the episodes as they were being shown and edited out the episodes on the spot. It gave me a chance to go through and watch the series again. It also gave me a chance to see all the edits that they put into the episodes and start work on a list. I still have that list; I really should submit it to the Avalon Archives or to the Gargoyles News Central site.

You wrote: [I GOT MY NEW DVD BURNER =)]

Congratulations! By the way, what system are you running and what type of a DVD Burner is it?

You wrote: [And I'm going to try and burn the series to DVD. The ultimate back up set!]

I constantly have doing that on my mind but I'm waiting to get myself an iMac for its simplified capture and burning capability before I do anything. When I finally do get one I plan to burn the original run copies that I have rather than the Toon Disney alternates. Not that I have anything against Toon Disney episodes as most of them are unedited but I want those few edited episodes completely untouched when I get the series into a digital format. (I also have a copy of VOWS with the original ending and want to have both of them (or at least both endings) on the same disc.)

I would say though that you might as well avoid working on AWAKENINGS given that this is most likely what Disney is going to put on DVD sometime next year anyway. (And after seeing how they restored BEAUTY AND THE BEAST and how well it came out I'm confident that the GARGOYLES DVD will work out wonderfully. I'm just wondering if they will ever get around to doing the entire series or at the very least everything up to HUNTERS MOON 3. Disney has never actually released any of its animated TV series completely in any format. I hope that GARGOYLES can be the first.)



GRAY WOLF - You wrote: [I'm putting the series on VCD]

The Toon Disney version or the original run version? If I can't get around to burning it to DVD anytime soon, I think I'll go the VCD route too. As long as it is digitized you can always burn it to DVD later on. The important thing is to get the series into a format where it can last potentially forever. VHS wears out too easily.



BABS - You wrote: [thats a good idea about the shows on CDR but make sure that your dvd player can play them , since CDR isnt a dvd it might not be able to read it]

True; Pioneer 343 region free version is a good player for DVDs, VCDs, and CD-Rs. Still if you don't have a DVD player that can play CD-R or VCD then a DVD-Rom is always a good short term substitute.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Sunday, October 13, 2002 04:34:47 PM
IP: 12.88.164.20

The best DVD player I found was from Toshiba. It supports DVD-R, VCD, MP3 disc.
Gray Wolf
Sunday, October 13, 2002 03:43:05 PM
IP: 195.167.64.193

thats a good idea about the shows on CDR but make sure that your dvd player can play them , since CDR isnt a dvd it might not be able to read it,Some of the newer DVD players are able to play them, if you have a CDR player you acn use that instead of a DVD. It's amazing to me that Gargoyles have been off the air for some time now, yet fans will always let it love on,I was reading the questions today and Some person from Germany was looking for the VHS or DVD, true he couldnt speak good English but he tried he loves the show so much that I dont think he cared if he typed in it wrong just as long as someone gets the idea. For a cartoon for have such an impact on peoples lives just boggles my mind.
for the German kid Ich liebe Gargoyles !
Babs
Philly, Pa
Sunday, October 13, 2002 03:37:48 PM
IP: 68.80.98.67

Mooncat> I'm putting the series on VCD (Video CD) which are just regular CD-Rs that been burned so that they can play in a DVD player. The only downside is that I can only put two shows on a CD at a time.
Gray Wolf
Sunday, October 13, 2002 03:23:28 PM
IP: 195.167.64.193

Toon Disney does run commercials, mores the pity. But that is an excellent excuse to actually sit and WATCH the episodes and take out the commercials manually *^_^* I think I'm going to try. Sheer madness... but...

I GOT MY NEW DVD BURNER =) And I'm going to try and burn the series to DVD. The ultimate back up set! With any luck this means I'll have Screen Capture Heaven for art references and web stuff.

:: crosses fingers for good luck ::

MC
>^,,^<


Mooncat
Sunday, October 13, 2002 11:02:15 AM
IP: 68.102.23.36

Just making sure everyone starts perparing for Halloween. Especially since Toon Disney is going to air _ALL_THE_EPISODES of Gargoyles back-to-back!

Dates and times are as follows:
October 28-30 3pm-12am EST
October 31 3pm-3am EST

All on ToonDisney.

Pretty sweet! And a good chance for those of you who want copies of the second season on tape. Especially since TD doesn't run commercials during the episodes... although yes some are edited a bit, but hey, it's still cool.

Looks like Disney is pushing the toon a bit more now. That's a fairly good sign of that the DVD is on its way.

Be sure to check out Toon Disney's Gargoyles site (click my name), especially the sweet wallpaper.

Eric - [eric@s8.org]
Sunday, October 13, 2002 05:06:51 AM
IP: 151.203.253.247

Thailog discussion> talking about how Thailog and Delilah would make a cute couple is moot cuz they are probably not going to end up together... didn't Greg say that they'd have a little fling and that would be that?
and it occures to me now how surprising it is that Thailog didn't have a plan to handle Demona after he breaks up with her! seriously, thats not very Xanatosian to suddenly make an enemy and then not guard against her... why didn't he shackle her up too or have one of the Clones hold her while he had Delilah get rid of Angie? silly Thailog, if Demona is mad at you, you better hide, or stop her somehow!!!!
matt
Sunday, October 13, 2002 02:12:45 AM
IP: 207.230.48.9

ELLEN - You wrote: [If the opportunity for gratification of some kind appears - especially if it presents an opportunity to mess with his enemies in the process - he'll take it, incestuous or not.]

I don't doubt that personal gratification is one of his main life goals. And I don't doubt that he'd want to and would take any advantage he could get over his enemies. But I still just have this feeling that we are reading too much into everything and making Thailog more depraved and evil than he might actually be. He has to have a red line somewhere just like Xanatos and even Demona - Thailog is amoral, not immoral after all.

In every appearance so far Thailog has been operating under some grand master plan of his own making, with his own goal and its something to which we are largely in the dark on aside from a detail or two. I think that at this point that plan (like Xanatos' immortality plan or Demona's Genocide Hobby) more than personal gratification would drive him and interest him.

I think that we're also personalizing Thailog's conflict for him. Aside from his first appearance he hasn't exactly related to Goliath or Sevarius as a father. The only personal conflict we could say he'd really recognize is with Xanatos. I think that Thailog's more like Classic Xanatos - everyone is a means to a goal and if something doesn't work out he's not going to take it personally and plan revenge. If he gives Angela a look in SANCTUARY, it isn't attraction as much as it is interest and a means to unnerve his opponent. (Which it did by the way.) He might be more disiplined than we might think too - I'm not sure he might jump at the chance for personal gratification if it would get in his way or wasn't central to his plan. He's more like Xanatos in thinking than we might be figuring.

You wrote: [Fox's loyalty and obsession, of course, is tempered by the tremendous strength of her individual personality.]

We can't really judge Delilah's personality or if she has strength equal to Fox since she basically had two lines of dialogue and five minutes of appearance. But I have to wonder - while Thailog might not have wanted an equal, he wouldn't have wanted someone boring. And while a obsessive, pleasure oriented concubine might be fun for a little while it would probably start to bore him after an extended period of time. He might not be interested in love (same as Xanatos when he got involved with Fox) but he might be more interested in someone he could plan with and deal with. So I wouldn't be suprised if Delilah were more individual and devious in thinking than we might imagine. Sort of like Fox. And even sort of like Demona who I think he dumped more due to goal orientation differences between them than lack of interest or common ground with her.

You wrote: [Yes, she's his, body and soul, but she doesn't disappear in his presence.]

True. But we don't know that Delilah wouldn't have be similar in that respect either. I doubt Thailog would think of her as a true equal or that he would ever love her but then again I wonder if that is how Xanatos started out in his relationship with Fox too. And while I'm not saying that given time a Thailog/Delilah relationship would have developed the same way, I don't think that it would be as static and demure as that of a master and a companion/slave.

You wrote: [Maybe, at a minimum, her personality would have been along the lines of Maggie's - as kind of a "negative" of Elisa and Demona, the way Thailog was a "negative" of Goliath. But even Maggie had her moments.]

Maybe. But I don't think that Maggie is the sort of personality that Thailog would want in a consort. I can't picture Thailog programming Delilah to be that passive and out of it. I think that it is more likely that the programming he gave Delilah was strong on the obsession and loyalty (or as he might have had her think of it - "love") to him but I think that he might have made her more along the lines of Demona, Elisa, and more likely than them Fox in thinking and action. Maggie or something like it would probably get on his nerves after five minutes.

You wrote: [I can't help wondering if this was also at least in part a last-ditch test of Demona's true loyalty - to Angela or to him.]

His first attempt on Angela in THE RECKONING was probably a test on where Demona stood.

(I personally think that he might have liked Demona more than we might think but that her general goals and personal desire for power were in conflict with his own (or that he figured they would eventually come into conflict with his own) and thats most likely why he dumped her. If she were more into ruling humanity than killing it he might not have been in such a rush to get rid of her.)

But his order to Delilah to kill Angela, that seemed more to rub salt in her wounds than anything else. Get dumped for a clone of yourself with your ex-husbands girlfriends head attached and then have her off your only child right in front of you. I'm not sure Thailog thought that part of the plan through - did he really think Demona would be that easy to handle once he turned against her or that he could move against Angela so easily while she was still free and able to do something? He really needed some more life experience, particularly in the "get you ass kicked for underestimating immortal psychopath ex-girlfriend" department. :-)



SILVERBOLT - You wrote: [I believe that Thailog thought Demona was too smart and that he created Delilah]

I think that it was more goal conflicts and in general that Demona could never be as loyal as a specifically programmed clone. But I don't think that he was particularly unhappy with her or that there was a major conflict on a personal level prior to THE RECKONING. They had a lot in common and I think that he might have even enjoyed being involved with her. Its just that she was bad for business so she had to go. Nothing personal.

You wrote: [I'm guessing that if Delilah did beat Thailog at chess Thailog would probably be angry with her]

I think he'd get moody but I don't think he would get angry or violent. Her interactions with him would be a test of if he is still maintaining an edge and if he started to lose to her then I think his thinking would drift to that rather than anger. It could also get him thinking if Delilah was outgrowing her programming and might need replacing but that would depend on how he would relate to her in general.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Sunday, October 13, 2002 12:24:19 AM
IP: 12.88.164.231

Ellen> I always believed Thailog made Delilah to be a slave or as he put it "The perfect programmed Companion" I believe that Thailog thought Demona was too smart and that he created Delilah because she would be a clone (He might yearn for his own kind?)and also she wouldn't betray him (Though calling her Delilah does sound odd since we all know what another Delilah did.)
I'm guessing that if Delilah did beat Thailog at chess Thailog would probably be angry with her (though if he would punish her with violence we'll never know)
And he used Elisas face instead of Demonas because he probably though Maza was more attractive and I guess the idea of using Angela's DNA for making Delilah would technically be incent seeing how that would have made Delilah his half sister.
I can't help but also notice a hint of Frankenstien in it as well because first Sevarius makes Thailog then his creation orders him to make a 'bride' for him, that was great, just like when Xanatos did the "It's ALIVE! ALIVE!" Oh how I laughed. :P
Silverbolt - [silverbolt2012@hotmail.com]
EnglandSaturday, October 12, 2002 06:58:54 AM
IP: 62.7.27.242

AIRWALKER: I always love a good analysis of Thailog, his personality, and his motives.

Your words: "In fact I think that we tend to attribute more twisted thinking to him than should be - if he were really interested in some sort of incest/Oedipal thing, he could have had Delilah created from Elisa and Angela who is biologically related to Goliath and technically to him."

In my view, it's not that he takes any real initiative to go looking for incestuous and/or Oedipal relationships. Instead, if the opportunity for gratification of some kind appears - especially if it presents an opportunity to mess with his enemies in the process - he'll take it, incestuous or not.

"And we still don't know exactly how Delilah's personality was worked out to be - is she anything at all like Elisa or is she more like Fox in thinking? Fox is after all extremely loyal and obsessed with Xanatos which is the sort of thing that might interest Thailog."

Fox's loyalty and obsession, of course, is tempered by the tremendous strength of her individual personality. She flips David on the exercise mat, she beats him at chess, she's cool and calm in response to his marriage proposal. And he likes that. Yes, she's his, body and soul, but she doesn't disappear in his presence. If I recall David's words at the end of "Upgrade" correctly, he calls her his true equal - not his true love, life companion, etc. His choice of words helps establish the ongoing individuality - and, in my view, independence - of her personality. Such a trait of independence in his closest allies (and in his consort, at the very least) might be more unsettling to Thailog than it is to David.

In addition to this, I seem to recall Greg Weisman going on record at some point with a self-assessment that he's deficient in constructing truly weak female characters. Besides endearing him to people such as me, who love seeing strong female personalities in entertainment/pop culture settings after having grown up with a glaring scarcity of them (I'm older than dirt, remember), this assessment indicates that Delilah would have had some kind of individuality, at the very least. Maybe, at a minimum, her personality would have been along the lines of Maggie's - as kind of a "negative" of Elisa and Demona, the way Thailog was a "negative" of Goliath. But even Maggie had her moments.

"And in THE RECKONING he was more interested in having Angela killed than killing Goliath - he did have Delilah move against her rather than after proving his point to Demona have Delilah try to kill Goliath."

Obviously true - but I can't help wondering if this was also at least in part a last-ditch test of Demona's true loyalty - to Angela or to him. Besides, he likely knew by then that Demona had already made multiple direct attempts on Goliath's life herself.

GREG: "And this pointless exercise is now done."

Your "pointless exercise" was the source of much enjoyment in this forum. We look forward to the next time a "pointless" whim strikes you.



Ellen - [efstolfa@aol.com]
Chicago
Saturday, October 12, 2002 01:54:08 AM
IP: 205.188.208.9

TODD - You wrote: [But two hundred years have gone by without the various gargoyle clans embarking upon such an offensive, which would give the lie to such a claim.]

Just because the various Gargoyle Clans who choose to reveal themselves or become revealed to the world don't actually do anything they are accused of doesn't mean that the accusations and propoganda saying that they do can't be used. And the lack of evidence doesn't mean that these accusations and propoganda will be discredited in the eyes of the majority of people.

I'm not saying that the situation is hopeless and that the situation of the Gargoyles won't improve in the 200 years between 1996 and 2198 but I do think that you are underestimating the lasting ability of hate and propoganda as well as its ability to be constantly recycled. Mainstream discourse in 2198 might not be able to refer to Gargoyles outright as murderous demons or frightening animals but that can still be used outside of mainstream discourse, aimed at an audience that has no contact whatsoever with Gargoyles. Mainstream discourse might move into more polished, nicely worded dialogue which just end up saying the same things.

You wrote: [Thailog's choice for her originals (Goliath's ex-mate and his future mate), combined with his earlier mating with Demona and repeated efforts to kill Goliath (not to mention Xanatos and Sevarius, his other two "fathers" in "Double Jeopardy") makes me strongly suspect that the guy has an Oedipus complex.]

Its possible but then again he does have better reasons to have done the things he's done than to say its all an Oedipus Complex.

He liked Elisa which says that he has good taste but that doesn't mean that he just wanted her because she happened to be Goliath's love interest. He was attracted to her in his own right. As for Demona, let's not forget that while she's Goliath's ex-wife, she was up to that point also the only known female Gargoyle around, so its not like he had a huge choice in who to date. Besides that is also the general fact that Demona is on some level someone who would be agreeable to Thailog in action and temperment. They both don't have a high opinion of Humanity, they both want power, and they both aren't really concerned with who goes down for them to get it. If Demona hadn't been relating to Thailog as a sort of substitute Goliath on some level and if she had been more into ruling Humanity than killing them then I'm not so sure that he would have been so quick to get rid of her.

As for his attempt on Goliath, Sevarius, and Xanatos in DOUBLE JEOPARDY it could be argued that it was all part of his attempt to get rich and free himself from captivity. If he just left then Xanatos might have gone looking for him. Even Sevarius might have done so, seeing him as nothing more than an experiment. He needed to be thought dead - the only thing in the plan that stands out is Goliath who I think he was actually interested in meeting and developing an opinion on independent from whatever Xanatos might have taught him. But even then Goliath is necessary to the plan - if Xanatos dies then files on Thailog might be found and his existance revealed to the government if not the world. But with Goliath around Thailog can have an death scene and have everyone escape alive. It wasn't coincidence that he said he planned out killing them but left Elisa in oversized shakles, the Magnetic disc on Xanatos, and Sevarius awake to help put an escape plan together.

If he was really interested in killing Sevarius or Xanatos or Goliath he had other opportunities to do so also and didn't. He didn't kill Sevarius in THE RECKONING even after the cloning job was done. He only made an attempt on Goliath in SANCTUARY and that was more because he was getting in his way. (And in THE RECKONING he was more interested in having Angela killed than killing Goliath - he did have Delilah move against her rather than after proving his point to Demona have Delilah try to kill Goliath.) And as for Xanatos I think that he has a more twisted version of the relationship that Xanatos has with Petros. I'm not sure so much if he wants to kill him, as much as I think he wants to prove himself to him.

In fact I think that we tend to attribute more twisted thinking to him than should be - if he were really interested in some sort of incest/Oedipal thing, he could have had Delilah created from Elisa and Angela who is biologically related to Goliath and technically to him. But instead he created a more agreeable version of Demona for himself since Delilah is largely a Demona clone with Elisa DNA thrown in for cosmetic effect.

(And we still don't know exactly how Delilah's personality was worked out to be - is she anything at all like Elisa or is she more like Fox in thinking? Fox is after all extremely loyal and obsessed with Xanatos which is the sort of thing that might interest Thailog. Was he looking for a loyal trustworthy love or just a sex toy is the real question to ask? Is Delilah his slave or companion? Is Thailog as twisted as we think or is he just almost acting out a Gargoyle version of Young Xanatos for us? After all we haven't seen how vicious 20-30 year old David Xanatos was. And we don't know how Thailog would act if he got the point and situation that Xanatos has reached in his life either? How would an older, more successful Thailog act?)



MICHAEL - You wrote: [Where did everyone go? I haven't been around in a long time due to real life responsibilities but I am shocked to see so few posts here.]

The room thins out from time to time. RL and other excuses. :-) It'll probably pick up when Greg's next ramble goes up. Or if we get into a Demona conversation. That always angries up the blood around here. :-)
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Friday, October 11, 2002 10:47:56 PM
IP: 12.88.164.85

Where did everyone go? I haven't been around in a long time due to real life responsibilities but I am shocked to see so few posts here.
Michael Norton - [goliath_994@yahoo.com]
Friday, October 11, 2002 08:43:06 PM
IP: 63.154.16.193

Shirt #19:

White. On the front, at the top it reads:

"5TH ANNUAL
GATHERING
of the
GARGOYLES"

Beneath that is a Greg Guler design of that Marilyn Monroe inspired gargoyle.

Beneath that it reads:

"CITY of ANGELS
JUNE 22ND - 25TH, 2001"

On the back is a parody of the logo from the show "Survivor".

A black circle says "OUTWIT OUTLAST OUTPLAY" surrounding:

"CONVENTION STAFF
SURVIVOR
THE GATHERING 2001
LOS ANGELES, CA"

This was given to me at the 2002 con, by Jen, who knows how much I like free stuff.

Anyway. That's it. 19 garg related t-shirts. Plus the sweatshirt I got from ToonDisney and the G2002 staff this past summer. Plus, I have a garg hat. Plus a couple of garg pins. That's my entire garg wardrobe.

And this pointless exercise is now done.
Greg Weisman
Friday, October 11, 2002 02:36:35 PM
IP: 67.219.26.113

Jim R.> Greg said in a chat in '97 that, "in my mind, he [Jon Canmore/Castaway] approached the Illuminati, who for their own reasons, funded the Quarrymen."
Vash
Friday, October 11, 2002 12:51:36 PM
IP: 129.98.123.136

Quarrymen of 2198> Personally, I don't see them changing that much in 200 years, if in fact, they still exist. There will always be bigots in societies and the Quarrymen would stand for just that. I could see the Quarrymen forming into some ritualistic Illuminati-like order, if they aren't somehow controlled by the Illuminati already. I don't remember there being any connection mentioned between the Illuminati and the Quarrymen, but anyone can feel free to refresh my memory. :)
Jim R.
Friday, October 11, 2002 12:11:54 PM
IP: 65.40.128.98

Hello everyone. I know that the comments room is not normaly used for posts like this but I need a bit of feed back so some writting that I have been doing. So... here is a tiny piece of the first chapter. Hope you enjoy it.

Lioness By Merain

Chapter 1: A Strange Discovery

Night fell over the gardens of Pike Mallok's large private estate. The roar of its owner breaking free from a day's sleep echoed throughout the gardens. Pike ran his fingers though his thick brown hair brushing the remaining pieces of crystal from it. He stretched his large green wings yawned, then he grabbed a nearby broom and as he did every night slowly swept up the pieces of crystal shards left behind.
The afterglow of the sunset danced over the tops of the trees and bushes turning them lovely colors. A cool spring breeze spread the smell of flowers thought the air. Night birds sang and the full moon slowly began to raise over the distant hills peeking thought the thin layer of clouds. All was peaceful or it should have been, but something wasn't right. Pike could feel it. He moved slowly towards the house his sharp eyes and keen ears taking in everything. Halfway from his roost to his house he heard the noise that had set off his Gargoyle senses. He froze listened more closely for a moment. It sounded like a sob. A sob? "Now I'm hearing things." He thought.
Pike lived alone, he had no family or servants and his friends, odd as they were, could be found for the most part in the old abandoned castle atop a nearby hill. The castle was believed by most people to be haunted but in truth it was just a legend that some of the local gargoyles and other odd magical creatures used to give themselves a safe place to stay. For many years now they had lived there in peace and comfort. With all the Quarrymen yelling for the destruction of gargoyles in Manhattan, a place like that was more than welcome as their beliefs were quickly spreading like wild fire through out the country. There were no other dwellings for many miles around. So what on earth could he have heard? The bushes near the front gate moved against the wind and a soft sound like a sob came from that general direction. He took a defensive stance and moved slowly towards the bushes his eyes glowing white. He peeked over the top and the sight that greeted him was not what he had expected.

Merain
Friday, October 11, 2002 12:23:24 AM
IP: 206.148.225.42

AIRWALKER - Some good points about the Quarrymen. Of course, I did believe that a major factor in undoing the whole "the gargoyles will slaughter you and carry your children away for some horrible fate" propaganda routine in 2198 is this. In 1996, the gargoyles have just been revealed to the world, involved in a couple of acts of horrible destruction, and so that makes it easy to believe that the gargoyles are out for murderous attacks upon humanity. But two hundred years have gone by without the various gargoyle clans embarking upon such an offensive, which would give the lie to such a claim.

But then I realized, while typing this, that one thing that will always help such a propaganda take is that people (both adults and children) do disappear in real life, and often their disappearances go unsolved or when they are found, they're found dead. Anti-gargoyle propagandists could simply lay such crimes to the gargoyles' door until such time that they can firmly be accredited to human criminals, and there might still be those who'll believe them. (The gargoyles don't necessarily have to continue making all-out assaults on humanity for the next two centuries to help that charge, after all).

On the subject of Delilah - Thailog's choice for her originals (Goliath's ex-mate and his future mate), combined with his earlier mating with Demona and repeated efforts to kill Goliath (not to mention Xanatos and Sevarius, his other two "fathers" in "Double Jeopardy") makes me strongly suspect that the guy has an Oedipus complex. Of course, the big problem is, who's going to volunteer to psychoanalyze Thailog to confirm it? Probably just as many people as are willing to psychoanalyze Demona (even though she'd certainly make a fascinating case study).
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, October 10, 2002 10:20:02 PM
IP: 63.208.45.200

Home stretch here, people.

Shirt #18 (technically this should be shirt #19, but I switched it for the real #18, because the real #18 looks so much like #17, that the people I work with would think I was just wearing the same shirt two days in a row. And I like to present a more hygenic image than that. So we'll get the real #18 tomorrow.)

Anyway, this one is a kind of beige color.

At the top it says:
"GATHERING
OF THE GARGOYLES"

Beneath that is a Native American inspired shield of some kind, with the image of a tattooed gargoyle, his back to us. There are leather fringes and feathers hanging from the shield.

Beneath that it says: "2002".
Greg Weisman
Thursday, October 10, 2002 02:43:26 PM
IP: 67.224.7.176

SILVERBOLT - You wrote: [Well I dunno how Demona would relate to Delilah, technically this Delilah isn't the original and therefore shouldn't completely look like Elisa]

Delilah 2198 is supposed to bear a strong resemblence to the original Delilah which I took to mean something along the lines that while coloring, wing structure, and forehead horns might be altered, that largely she would look like the original Delilah who basically looks like Elisa. (It's even possible that the Delilah 2198 design might have some Demona elements showing up strongly since after all Demona is technically one of the parents of the original Delilah.)

You wrote: [I'm pretty sure Demona truely despised Delilah uno and probably any relation daughter, grandaughter or other wise.]

Its a pretty good bet that Demona completely hates the original Delilah. After all not only is Delilah a replacement for her but it be more likely that Demona would see her more literally as Elisa Maza's head on her body. (I wonder if Elisa might see it that way to a certain extent. Would she be insulted or sort of flattered on some level?)

But I'm not so sure about how she would react to Delilah 2198. There might be hostility since we are talking about someone who is going to bear a strong resemblence to Elisa Maza and I can imagine a lot of friction between the two characters.

But I also wonder if Demona might have mellowed out and developed somewhat that she might have some sympathy (or alternately pity) for Delilah. Delilah might remind her of herself way when she was that age and might be able to look beyond her Elisa-ish look. (It might even be a sort of parallel to the Demona/Gruoch relationship as Greg described it once - sort of quiet respect and possibly even a bit of admiration mixed in with lots of distance and a bit of hostility.)

It also doesn't hurt that Samson probably has an interest in Delilah. I'm sure that Demona probably kept exact track of her various descendents (she would probably know exactly how the family tree twists and if he is Lancelot's son or grandson or whatever). Being civil and pleasant around Delilah might give her some points with Samson, something that she might want to have. (She obviously has some desire to be involved with her biological descendents or she'd probably be more likely to not help Samson and move against the Spawn on her own.)

You wrote: [I find it quite interesting how Delilah has become so popular seeing as how she only said a few lines and had very little screen time.]

It is hard to explain - I think its the endless potential that a character who is a biological mix of Elisa and Demona together with possibly some Fox in her personality that really draws the imagination to Delilah. She just strikes as a character who could have had so much more story and influence if only there had been a little more time to have that develop. How would she react to Goliath? Would she see him as an individual or as a Thailog substitute? How would Goliath see her? And how would he react to finding out that she might see him as a Thailog substitute considering that he is the original and Thailog is the evil clone? How would Delilah relate to Elisa? To Demona? To Talon? How would she develop? Would she be more like Elisa or Demona or even Fox? Or would she develop in her own direction? And considering that Thailog gave her some more detailed programming, exactly what is her worldview anyway? And how will she develop from that template? And is it a bad template considering we don't exactly know what it is?



TODD - You wrote: [I wonder what the Quarrymen of 2198 would be like.]

I figure that they would go both ways - have a political wing that would be legally recognized and deal with propoganda against Gargoyles and have a military wing that would be illegal and deal with physical attack against Gargoyles.

You wrote: [After all, the public have had two hundred years to learn the truth about gargoyles, to discover that the gargoyles aren't out to undertake mass slaughters of humanity, kidnap human children, etc.]

The public has had a lot of time to learn a lot of things but they don't usually sink in very easily; there is still mention of the Blood Libel in anti-Jewish propoganda for example. I don't find it hard to believe that the Quarrymen could cart out the old myths to use over again. It would be less likely to be as mainstream in 2198 as it might be in 1998 but that doesn't give much comfort.

And has the public had THAT much contact with the Gargoyles in the 200 year period we are talking about? The Gargoyles might live more in the open and might participate more in society overall than they did prior to 1996 or even in the period following HUNTERS MOON 3 but as night dwellers who live largely in a rich man's castle overlooking the entire city, they are still pretty isolated. And we aren't talking about a huge population either - there usually aren't more than 40-50 Gargoyles per Clan; not exactly a huge number to interact in a city of millions or a world of billions.

I think that it is much more likely that Gargoyles have been more isolated than we might think - I don't think that they turned outright into just another human-ish minority in this space of time. I think that isolation and small numbers plus rich alliances and the possible political clout that come with that might make them more suspect in the eyes of the people, even in the cities where the odds for close contact are better. At best Gargoyles will have been given status in Human society and under Human law which is better than letting it remain undefined and leaving them open to outright attack by anyone with a sledgehammer but that personal opinion of the Clans might not be so good.

You wrote: [By 2198, it's highly unlikely that the people in such places as New York where gargoyle clans live will still be in the dark about it, unless they're so hopelessly stubborn and calloused that they have deliberately locked the door to understanding from the inside.]

I don't think it is that simple. People might recognize that Gargoyles aren't demons and aren't animals. They might recognize that they have rights or at the very least they might be forced to recognize that they have rights. But would that change opinions drastically? A million different new reasons could be invented to hate them for - for example I wonder how much of the city might view the Clan if they have become closely associated with the Police. The Quarrymen might have more fertile ground than we might imagine. It wouldn't be as uphill a battle as in 1996 but I doubt that the battle would be over and we would be talking about Season 1 TGS Utopia that the Spawn would be shattering.

You wrote: [I doubt that these people would be frightened citizens who want to protect their families any further; more likely, it'd be made up almost exclusively of hardened hatemongers, thugs, and professional mercenaries.]

It wouldn't be frightened families - anyone who wouldn't like living near Gargoyles would have moved out of the area long ago and wouldn't consider coming near the place. But I don't think that the Quarrymen would just be thugs and mercenaries - perhaps for a period in that 200 year timespan when they are at a low point but they seem to try to appeal to a dual audience - one respectable to finance and the other not respectable to do the dirty work.

They might not be respectable in 2198 but they aren't illegal either. That says something about the situation in 2198.

You wrote: [On the other hand, the Quarrymen might have given up on the old "hammer-wielding violence", on the official level.]

I think that it might be a more symbolic thing for them on the official level - the official symbol of the group but also a sort of trophy that each member has and keeps in their homes. Sort of like a lodge with hammers in substitute for stupid hats and a weird handshake.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Thursday, October 10, 2002 01:59:22 PM
IP: 12.88.163.209

While we're on the subject of "Gargoyles 2198", I wonder what the Quarrymen of 2198 would be like.

On the one hand, it's quite possible that they'd be a lot more like the Quarrymen of "The Goliath Chronicles" than the Quarrymen of "The Journey". After all, the public have had two hundred years to learn the truth about gargoyles, to discover that the gargoyles aren't out to undertake mass slaughters of humanity, kidnap human children, etc. By 2198, it's highly unlikely that the people in such places as New York where gargoyle clans live will still be in the dark about it, unless they're so hopelessly stubborn and calloused that they have deliberately locked the door to understanding from the inside. I doubt that these people would be frightened citizens who want to protect their families any further; more likely, it'd be made up almost exclusively of hardened hatemongers, thugs, and professional mercenaries.

On the other hand, the Quarrymen might have given up on the old "hammer-wielding violence", on the official level. After all, the drawback of the old Quarryman tactics is that they wind up making the Quarrymen look just as big a menace to the public as the gargoyles, if not even worse; they'd be facing constant accusations of reckless endangerment of innocent bystanders, vigilantism, not to mention what happens when they smash architectural gargoyles and the owners file complaints about property damage. So they might decide to undertake more subtle measures - maybe behaving more like those people who claim that the Holocaust was a hoax, for example. (The Gargoyle Education League that we recently introduced into TGS, if I can mention that here, was based on just such a concept). And we do know from Greg's document that the Quarrymen will be distributing propaganda to convince the public that the gargoyles are in cahoots with the Space-Spawn. So maybe they'll be less violent, more subtle.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, October 10, 2002 09:16:44 AM
IP: 65.56.173.113

Airwalker> Well I dunno how Demona would relate to Delilah, technically this Delilah isn't the original and therefore shouldn't completely look like Elisa (unless it's a clone of the original Delilah but i seriously doubt that) also I'm pretty sure Demona truely despised Delilah uno and probably any relation daughter, grandaughter or other wise.

I find it quite interesting how Delilah has become so popular seeing as how she only said a few lines and had very little screen time. She reminds me a little of Boba Fett in a way because he had a little role in the Star Wars movies (Minus Episode 2) and he is the 2nd most popular bad guy!

Thank you Greg for creating Delilah, WHOO!
Silverbolt - [silverbolt2012@hotmail.com]
Thursday, October 10, 2002 05:28:18 AM
IP: 212.50.183.100

Shirt #17:

White. At the top it reads:

"5TH ANNUAL
GATHERING
of the
GARGOYLES"

Beneath that is a Greg Guler design of a Marilyn Monroe inspired gargoyle, whose name escapes me at the moment. She's doing that whole "Hey, my skirt's being blown up and I have to hold it down" sexy pose that Marilyn is famous for.

Beneath that it reads:

"CITY of ANGELS
JUNE 22ND - 25TH, 2001"
Greg Weisman
Wednesday, October 9, 2002 07:20:35 PM
IP: 67.224.11.4

LADY BALTIMORE - You wrote: [maybe we could do a similar analysis/debate on another character, another situation? :)]

Ok, how about this - I was looking at the G2198 Plan recently and while reading over the description of Greg's idea for Delilah 2198 I started wondering - doesn't the character description sound a lot like Demona except without the genocide bit? Its interesting trying to imagine the situation in G2198 if her personality is along the lines of a 994-1057 Demona except that she happens to look a lot like Elisa. I wonder what Brooklyn would have to say when he timedances into 2198. :-)

(It does seem to fit well if we look at GARGOYLES as being one long story from 971 to 2198; hell we could even say that while Goliath is the main character that the story of the series really revolves around Demona - she plays a role in all of it from the very beginning in 971 to the very end in 2198.)

And it also raises another question - if Delilah is a lot like Demona then what exactly is Demona 2198 like? I got the impression that she might be a little more mellowed out if not over her whole "kill humanity" habit. And how would future Demona relate with Delilah, someone who might be so much like her but looks a lot like Elisa Maza?
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Wednesday, October 9, 2002 06:36:54 PM
IP: 12.88.164.97

Just posting a link to the latest NASA space shuttle launch. It's in quicktime format. The great thing about this clip (and the reason I'd post a link to it) is it includes video from the tiny camera mounted on the external tank facing down torwards the orbiter. It is a great piece of video. I've seen pieces similar to this from unmanned NASA launches as well as amatuer rocketry launches, but this one is exceptional due to the perfect weather during launch.
Eric - [eric@s8.org]
Wednesday, October 9, 2002 04:36:26 PM
IP: 192.207.57.4

Yes, the new s8 forums are there only to help me keep track of everyone's opinions on what to add/deleted/change here on s8 with specific focus on this Gargoyles site.

It is not replacing the Comment Room... but hey, if you want it to, post a message in the forums about it!

I'd like to get as many comments in the forums as possible to help push me and give me an idea of what people want (if anything) in a new design of this site.

As a side note I also installed a Wiki site for anyone to play with if they want. The address is http://www.s8.org/wiki/

I'm toying with the idea of creating a Gargoyles Wiki as part of the redesign.
Eric - [eric@s8.org]
Tuesday, October 8, 2002 11:29:52 PM
IP: 151.203.249.187

Well, looking back to the Demona debate that was going on when I first came 'round (when I hadn't seen "Vows" or "City of Stone" yet, so I couldn't exactly contribute much) . . . maybe we could do a similar analysis/debate on another character, another situation? :)
Lady Baltimore
MD, USA
Tuesday, October 8, 2002 11:06:31 PM
IP: 206.214.2.212

TODD - You wrote: [the forum is intended more as a place to submit comments to Gorebash about what we want changed or not changed at Station 8, instead of an actual replacement for this comment room.]

I don't think that its a replacement for this place at all; rather I think that its a more centralized place where Gore can easily and quickly scan over any suggestions and comments related to ASKGREG and the site in general. It can be time consuming having to sort through the Comment Room for specific suggestions on what to do with the site when this place really picks up. With the forum in place he can stick to a centralized, specific thread and skip anything he might not have time for.

I already registered to post there but I haven't had time to put down anything yet; been busy with some job interviews this week. I hope to get to it in the near future though. Maybe this weekend.



And while I'm here - we really need some sort of new topic to launch into now that "the state of ASKGREG" topic has been effectively moved to the other forum. Anyone have any suggestions?
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Tuesday, October 8, 2002 10:43:11 PM
IP: 12.88.165.194

Well, the impression that I got was that the forum is intended more as a place to submit comments to Gorebash about what we want changed or not changed at Station 8, instead of an actual replacement for this comment room. At least, I hope that that's what it is.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, October 8, 2002 07:28:33 PM
IP: 63.208.44.166

we have a forum now? Wow, Like I didn't waste enough time in the CR. But will the presence of the forums drive the CR to extinction? That would suck, since the free, open nature of the CR, (without having to worry about making different threads that many might ignore) would be gone.
Jimmy
Tuesday, October 8, 2002 07:15:30 PM
IP: 199.74.80.15

Shirt #16

At the top it reads:

"GATHERING
2001"

Beneath that is a shot of Demona with her wings open to reveal the Los Angeles skyline (such as it is).

Beneath that is a scroll which reads:

"5th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles
City of Angels"

And beneath that a signature: "aimee major '00"

This was the shirt given out, I believe, to G2001 staff members at G2000 to help advertise the con.
Greg Weisman
Tuesday, October 8, 2002 02:51:16 PM
IP: 67.219.22.193

Greetings. I apologize for my absence, though I have been training. For those who don't know, I will be in Camp Bondsteel.....::drum roll::....Kosovo by the end of this month. I look forward to not paying any income tax for the whole month of October, because I am in a tax free combat zone, as opposed to fully taxed combat zones like the Bronx, South Boston, Cleveland, Detroit, and Newark :)

Not much else is going on with my life and I hoep all are doing well. See you at NYC in June.
Green Baron - [greenbaron@hotmail.com]
Kitzingen, Bavaria, Germany
Tuesday, October 8, 2002 10:26:21 AM
IP: 136.207.251.246

LADY BALTIMORE - You wrote: [But I'm thinking I'll have a bit of trouble convincing my parents that it's worth it since we've got the original VHS]

The Special Edition DVD release has three different versions of the actual movie presentation - the special edition version with a long new scene added in, the seen in the movies version, and the work in progress version that they showed at the 91 NY Film Festival. If that isn't enough to convice your parents then the tons of extra features on both discs (music videos, making of the movie, etc) should help too.

You wrote: [I'm woefully unknowledgeable in the anime category (beyond a bit of it with Lain 1-10, Princess Mononoke, and Digimon's first two seasons).]

If you liked LAIN then I recommend picking up NIEA UNDER 7. Its the LAIN creators take on comedy and the class system. If you liked MONONOKE then anything Miyazaki is recommended. And if you liked DIGIMON, well I'm not sure what to recommend in that case. (Season 1 and 2 of DIGIMON are good although with the dub script they had it can be hard to tell. I'm still hoping someone will sit down and fansub the Japanese version of it.) Try PRINCESS NINE or SABER MARIONETTE J. They have nothing to do with DIGIMON but they are pretty good series to sit down and enjoy.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Tuesday, October 8, 2002 09:37:48 AM
IP: 12.88.162.76

Greetings TO all! The second chapter of my story is up if you are intested. click link or go to:
http://www.miniclan.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=17
It's under story time2
Merain
Tuesday, October 8, 2002 01:16:28 AM
IP: 206.148.224.6

Airwalker> "By the way, I picked up Disney's Special Edition release of BEAUTY AND THE BEAST. Its probably my all time favorite Disney film; they really did a good job with this release. I'm more and more convinced that they'll handle the GARGOYLES DVD release well."

I really want to get that one . . . and since my birthday's coming up, I might have a chance. But I'm thinking I'll have a bit of trouble convincing my parents that it's worth it since we've got the original VHS . . . but Belle is one of my favorite Disney heroines, and I like the movie, so I think I'll try . . .


And I've actually got no other comments yet. I think the forum is a good idea, even if I've got nothing to suggest or add or say (at least more specifically than I think it's a good idea) . . . and I'm woefully unknowledgeable in the anime category (beyond a bit of it with Lain 1-10, Princess Mononoke, and Digimon's first two seasons). But I think the forum thing's a good idea, and I think I'll at least lurk around there. *nodnod*

Anyhow . . . 'sall for now.
Lady Baltimore
MD, USA
Monday, October 7, 2002 11:05:55 PM
IP: 199.183.170.28

GOREBASH - You wrote: [... and I'd shoot myself if I didn't give some props to my favorite Miyazaki film "Nausicaa and the Valley of Wind".]

I have the fansub. I can't praise this film enough either and I can't wait for the DVD release. The film is also the only one that Miyazaki did a manga for also. (I would have loved to have a LAPUTA manga; that ending almost seems to cry out for it in my opinion. But then again I did want more of that story. :-) )

The movie is just a shorter, more condensed version of the first couple of chapters in the first volume of the manga. See the movie before you read the manga because then you might be left feeling that the movie barely scratches the surface. I had a friend who got the manga first and she described the movie as light and lacking in detail, almost like nothing compared to the detail and majesty of the manga. (She still liked it by the way; just felt it to be light in comparison with the manga.)

You wrote: [Liked Princess Mononoke or Spirited Away, go see Nausicaa!]

As long as we are recommending Miyazaki let me mention LAPUTA and FUTURE BOY CONAN. LAPUTA is adventure, fantasy, science, romance (sort of), and a pretty clear open ended happy ending too. Its probably the closest of all Miyazaki films to date that seems like a good Disney film. (Its also sort of strange for Miyazaki in that it has a clear cut, no hold barred villain rather than the usual grey area characters he tends to have.)

FUTURE BOY CONAN was a TV series that he did in 1978; despite the age, it still carries out very strongly - you can see shades of all his future works and themes but in particular MONONOKE, NAUSSICA, and LAPUTA in it. I can't recommend it highly enough. It has everything although again since its a late 70's/early 80's TV series, don't expect miricles with the animation.

Both are fansubbed. Disney though only has the rights to LAPUTA and since they have produced a dub for it, the odds are that it will be released on DVD eventually by them. FUTURE BOY CONAN still hasn't been picked up by anyone and is only available fansubbed. Its worth the effort to get it.



By the way, I picked up Disney's Special Edition release of BEAUTY AND THE BEAST. Its probably my all time favorite Disney film; they really did a good job with this release. I'm more and more convinced that they'll handle the GARGOYLES DVD release well.

(And they even put the LILO AND STITCH parody promo on the DVD. I love that one! :-) )
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Monday, October 7, 2002 10:48:05 PM
IP: 12.88.166.100

Station has a forum now?! Wow. I'll register.

(looks at forum)

Hmm...plain looking, but still, it's something. Thanks Gore!
Jim R.
Monday, October 7, 2002 07:52:12 PM
IP: 65.164.19.145

... and I'd shoot myself if I didn't give some props to my favorite Miyazaki film "Nausicaa and the Valley of Wind". Tackles so many important topics that are important to all of humanity and does so in an exciting way. The manga is much more rich in story but the film represents the manga well.

Liked Princess Mononoke or Spirited Away, go see Nausicaa! Right now it's only available as a fansub or as a bootleg, but Disney has the U.S. release rights to it so it should hit the US in official capacity eventually.

Link goes to a huge wallpaper from the movie.


Gorebash - [eric@s8.org]
Monday, October 7, 2002 07:25:23 PM
IP: 151.203.249.187

matt: contact me 'bout what?

I'm putting up a new forum system to specifically deal with handling people's comments/thoughts/ect... regarding Ask Greg, what to do with it, and what to do with this site in general.

The address is:
http://www.s8.org/forum/index.php

So go nuts. This way nothing gets lost, there is no room wiping, or such...

And if I'm missing a forum topic that should be up there, e-mail me and let me know.
Eric (aka Gorebash) - [eric@s8.org]
Monday, October 7, 2002 07:16:59 PM
IP: 151.203.249.187

I thought the Top Ten was supposed to stop at ten? ;) Although I guess technically I'd be fourteen, but . . .

Lurker #2> "10th! (don't you ever grow tired of this race?)"

Well, it brings a moment of sunlight into my week that might not be found otherwise . . . ;)

But really, who gets sick of the little pointless things? It's the meaningful things that I get sick of after a while. :) :B

Hehe . . .
Lady Baltimore
MD, USA
Monday, October 7, 2002 05:23:48 PM
IP: 199.183.160.210

Week #3/Shirt #15

Black with a bold florescent Goliath on the chest. It glows in the dark.

On the Right Sleeve it says:

"The
Gathering 2000:
Orlando"

By the way, the family went to see SPIRITED AWAY yesterday. It got off to a slow and even annoying start for me, but by the end of the film I was totally entranced and very sad it was over. Loved it. Highly recommend it.
Greg Weisman
Monday, October 7, 2002 02:41:18 PM
IP: 67.224.9.7

D'OH! 12th, oh well never mind. I still claim it in the name of cute fuzzy werewolf pups everywhere!
Silverbolt - [silverbolt2012@hotmail.com]
EnglandMonday, October 7, 2002 01:06:47 PM
IP: 213.122.240.89

my lucky number 11 for all its worth...

has anyone tried contacting Gore yet?
matt
Monday, October 7, 2002 06:54:40 AM
IP: 207.230.48.38

(besides: the count is usually wrong anyway;)
Lurker #2
Monday, October 7, 2002 03:13:35 AM
IP: 129.217.143.253

10th! (don't you ever grow tired of this race?)
Lurker #2
Monday, October 7, 2002 03:11:00 AM
IP: 129.217.143.253

I shall take ninth!

:)


Princess Alexandria - [princess_alex24@hotmail.com]
Monday, October 7, 2002 02:32:43 AM
IP: 64.91.100.237

<ENTER LORD SLOTH>
<YAWN> uh. Eight. Yeah,.............yeah. uh, hmm, uhh <yaWN>
<EXIT LORD SLOTH>
Lord Sloth
Monday, October 7, 2002 01:54:30 AM
IP: 142.55.22.187

For the heck of it, I claim #7.
DPH
AR, USA
Monday, October 7, 2002 01:20:13 AM
IP: 204.94.193.75

Make that 6th.
Missy
Monday, October 7, 2002 01:03:05 AM
IP: 64.12.96.71

7th!
Missy
NJ
Monday, October 7, 2002 01:01:40 AM
IP: 64.12.96.71

OK Five, I'm even slower than I thought....
Wingless - [canclan@rogers.com]
Monday, October 7, 2002 12:28:19 AM
IP: 66.185.84.203

Getting Sloooow in my old age.
Number Four! Aaaaoouuuuuuuuwww!
Wingless - [canclan@rogers.com]
Monday, October 7, 2002 12:27:55 AM
IP: 66.185.84.203

I claim 4th in the name of the Fay!

MOONCAT
>^,,^<
Mooncat
Monday, October 7, 2002 12:27:46 AM
IP: 68.102.23.36

THIRD!!! MWAHAHAH >:D
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Monday, October 7, 2002 12:21:24 AM
IP: 66.169.210.231

I guess I'll grab second.

Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
Monday, October 7, 2002 12:13:07 AM
IP: 152.163.188.164

First! Wheee!
warrioress
Monday, October 7, 2002 12:02:16 AM
IP: 64.216.155.20