Comments for the week ending January 20, 2003

Index : Hide Images

<lone spotlight on a pewter and red helmet,,,>

[singing]
We've paid our dues, time after time...
We've done our sentence, but commited no crime.
And bad mistakes... yes, we've made a few...
We've had our share of sand kicked in our face
Now we've come through!

(And We mean to go on, and on, and on, and on!)

WE Are the Champions, my Friend!
And We'll keep on fighting 'till the end!
WE Are the Champions, WE are the Champions!
No We're NOT Losers!
'Cause WE are the Champions... of THE WORLD!!!

# # #

Much apologies if that last phrase seems premature... but, DAMNIT, BUCCANEERS WON THE NFC CONFERENCE!!! WE'RE GOING TO SAN DIEGO AND THE SUPER BOWL!!!

MAINTAIN AND CHECK SIX!!!

Stephen R. Sobotka Jr.
Tampa Bay, FL, USA
Sunday, January 19, 2003 08:19:17 PM
IP: 65.35.132.55

*Rebirth Hint*: Just climb onto the rotor. Then you'll be moving along with the blades and can easily pass through the gap.
Vash
Sunday, January 19, 2003 08:19:06 PM
IP: 129.98.123.136

Hello,

I was wondering if anyone could give me a hint concerning how one bypasses the fan in Chapter Four of Gargoyles: Rebirth. I have been struggling with it for a couple of days now and I can feel my mind swiftly approaching the point of insanity. Could someone please be kind enough to ease my brain of its torment.

I haven't posted here before, and am unaware of any rules or guidlines that are subjected to one topic or off topic posts. Please do not flame me for poor spelling or grammar.
RxZix - [RxZix@TeamFCUK.com]
Edina, MN, USA
Sunday, January 19, 2003 08:10:14 PM
IP: 65.29.47.174

AIRWALKER - The S&P issue that you raise is most likely a major reason for the relative lack of animated adventure series in low-tech periods of history.

Re Macbeth's decision: Well, I still believe that, aside from the moral issue, there could have been serious political ramifications to executing the young Canmore.

1. It would give an excellent propaganda handle for any of Macbeth's political rivals, especially those related to Duncan (by the way, in actual history, Duncan not only had a second son in the form of Donald Ban still alive at the time of his death, but also his father Crinan, a powerful nobleman who did in actual fact move against Macbeth and attempt to depose him a few years later, only to be slain in battle himself). Duncan's death alone would be a little difficult to handle from the propaganda standpoint, since Duncan had brought it upon himself by launching an unprovoked attack upon Macbeth for no reason other than three old bedlams claiming that Macbeth would someday become King of Scotland in his place; you'd need a lot of whitewash to cover that up, more than would most likely have been available in 1040. (And, historically speaking, Duncan was also an incompetent and unpopular king by 1040; I doubt that anybody other than his closest kinsmen and adherents had reason to mourn his death). But putting a helpless child to death; there you've got a rallying point. And if Macbeth had had to face an enemy using Canmore's execution as his primary stated motive for moving against him, he might well have gone into battle fearing, deep down inside, that the opposition was in the right, thanks to a guilty conscience over killing Canmore (which, knowing the Macbeth of 1040, he'd most likely have had had he done it), and been sufficiently weakened in morale that he could well have lost.

2. The deed might have started him down the slippery slope to becoming a tyrant himself; one case of "the end justifies the means" could easily lead to another, and then another. After all, the reasoning behind killing Canmore wasn't that different from Duncan's motives for seeking to kill Findlaech and Macbeth.

It might be worth wondering, incidentally, whether putting Canmore in charge of his English relatives in 1040 would have appeared quite so dangerous at the time as it does in hindsight. Eventually, we know, they did come around, but for all that we know, the situation in England could have been different at the time. Maybe they originally had sufficient troubles at home that invading Scotland didn't appear a realistic possibility, or maybe they initially didn't feel that fond of Canmore and viewed him as the son of a failure (on the grounds that if Duncan let himself get trounced by Macbeth, he couldn't have been that successful a king). It certainly took them a good long while to get around to invading Scotland on his behalf, and maybe at the time it didn't seem quite so feasible. Of course, we've no way of knowing.

(It's a pity that we can't consult Greg Weisman still further on this one; I'd really like to know his thoughts on this beyond just Donald Ban's existence).

You could, if you like, see Macbeth's clemency to Canmore as a bit like the old cliche in super-hero cartoons where the super-hero not only always spares the villain, but even goes out of his way to save the villain's life, thus ensuring that the villain will be able to return and threaten the innocent again.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Sunday, January 19, 2003 06:39:48 PM
IP: 63.208.40.200

TODD - You wrote: [These days, practically any animated adventure series has to be set in the present day or a futuristic high-tech setting to be accepted, it seems.]

I don't think its so much the Medieval setting that immediately turns the Executives off from a DARK AGES sort of series; interest in a Medieval story probably does come up but then again there have been relatively successful animated and live action series set in ancient/medieval periods. I think that the lack of series in a Medieval setting are more a way of dealing with S&P. In a modern/futuristic setting with all the high tech action can be smoothed out a bit; it can be violent without major side effect - violence without violence in a way. In a realistic swordfight you have to be more vivid with damage and consequences than when you deal with Lazer blasts.

You wrote: [Canmore only won because Demona gave in to her suspicion and distrust and deserted Macbeth]

I wonder about that; Canmore defintely won due to Demona deserting but what would have happened if she hadn't have done so? Its not clear that Canmore would win but its not clear that Macbeth would either. Would there have been a prolonged stalemate? The odds weren't in Macbeths favor since Canmore had English backing and they had their own motivations in getting Macbeth out of the way. And when Moray fell, Macbeth gave the impression that he and the Gargoyles were more on the defensive than the offensive. Was Canmore's victory inevitable given all that? Did Demona's defection only speed up his ultimate victory?

You wrote: [I certainly doubt that we were meant to view it as the wrong thing, given that a major point of "City of Stone" (and of "Gargoyles" in general) was that "every life is precious" and "death is never the answer".]

Would Canmore's death have avoided war? Given that we have Donald Bain in the picture, it probably wouldn't have. Would a campaign without Canmore have been easier for Macbeth to win? Questionable. Was Macbeth being true to his code of conduct and honor by sparing Canmore? Yes. But was it ultimately a wise thing to do politically? No strong argument has really been made; the split comes down between it being politically wrong and morally right.

Macbeth and Young Canmore seem to fall in line with an old Talmudic proverb - "Those who show mercy to the Cruel end up being Cruel to those who deserve mercy." He showed mercy to someone who was openly a threat to him, his family, and his allies. In the end that act of mercy led him to a life of exile and ultimately a sort of villainy.

"Life is precious" and "Death is never the answer" are true but in trying to kill Demona, Macbeth was trying to end him own life with Demona dying as a side effect. The Sisters played their tricks again - they kept asking him if the deaths of Findlaech, Duncan, and even himself did any good. But they never did give him enough of a chance to wonder if Canmore's death would have improved things.

You wrote: [It would certainly have been sloppy writing to, midway through the four-parter, say, "Sorry, we were wrong about this; taking a life was the right thing to do here" with Canmore, and then go back to the "every life is precious" for the remainder of the story after that.]

On the other hand Macbeth did kill Gillcomgain, Duncan, and was ready to kill adult Canmore and then Demona. The episodes weren't saying that fighting evil and even killing it are incompatible with the idea that "Life is precious". The argument to me seemed to be more in response to the life isn't worth it attitude that Macbeth had adopted; his goal was not so much to kill Demona (that would only really be a side effect) but to kill himself. And that wouldn't solve anything.


AARON - You wrote: [I believe it to be some combination of reading chicken entrails, a dartboard, and rolling a D20.]

Can't be; its too logical a system to explain most of the edits. :-)

You wrote: [Unless of course the evidence was suppressed by the Illuminati.]

I could see the Illuminati helping to in general make the memory of Gargoyles vanish faster than it normally might have and to help keep Gargoyles a legend by making sure that the existing information on them would either be hard to find/rare and largely discredited. But after a point the Gargoyles themselves have to be pretty much out of view of the public; the Illuminati can only do so much to keep the Gargoyles a secret. If a Clan is discovered as the Manhattan Clan was then there isn't much the Illuminati can do about it.


SPACEBABIE - You wrote: [Yes Duncan would have killed Luach, but Macbeth ISN'T Duncan. He ISN'T the Macbeth in the play he is much closer to the real Historical version. Sure some might think he should of but it would be against his honor code. That's why I like and respect the character so much.]

I respect his moral choice and his ability to rise above politics in order to abide by them; that is part of what I like about the character too. I understand that he's not the ruthless coward that Shakespeare developed; but all that aside doesn't erase the fact that politically the choice he made was stupid and ultimately fatal.

He had to make a choice between Power and Morality; he chose Morality. That makes him a decent person with good intentions but all that doesn't keep a man in power. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Sunday, January 19, 2003 03:23:48 PM
IP: 12.88.172.78

I doubt that "Gargoyles" has the same hopes of coming back that the "classic cartoons" (such as "He-Man") had, for the simple reason that it never enjoyed quite as much popularity as they did; the big "popular" series at the time that it was airing was "Power Rangers", after all. It was more of a "mildly popular but nothing big" series in terms of viewership and ratings.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Sunday, January 19, 2003 07:09:20 AM
IP: 63.208.62.188

VK -- of course we all think it could; we wouldn't still be in this fandom if we didn't still all harbor a great love for the show.

However, it was never a lack of ideas that brought Gargoyles to an end. Greg had plenty of those and could have happily kept going for years. It wasn't his decision to end the show. As sucky as it is, the characters were his intellectual creation but not his property.

So, without permission from Disney, not even Greg could bring back the show, or do a series of books, or anything. At the risk of speaking for the man, I'm sure he'd love to and would leap at the chance. Going by what the rest of the cast and crew have said at the various Gatherings, I bet they'd drop everything if they got the go-ahead to do a new season.

But they _can't_ unless Disney says so. So it doesn't matter how many wonderful ideas there are out there. It's out of Greg's hands. And it's certainly out of ours. Unless any of us win the MegaFilthyRichBillionsBucks Lottery and can buy the rights.

Maybe, someday, Disney will realize the colossal blunder they made (but, right now, we're talking about the people who think "101 Dalmatians 2" is a good idea, so, personally, I'm doubtful).

But I just want to reiterate -- it was never for a lack of ideas. A guy as creative as Greg isn't a well that's going to run dry any time soon.
Christine
Sunday, January 19, 2003 12:20:53 AM
IP: 65.239.47.106

Alot of classic cartoons are being redone and updated, like He-Man the question is does anyoen thing that Gargoyle could be redone?.

I know highly unlikely, but one can hope.
Vault Keeper - [vaultkeeper@dupuis.shawbiz.ca]
Victoria, BC, Canada
Sunday, January 19, 2003 12:05:58 AM
IP: 24.64.223.203

MATT> I didn't say he was one, I said he was behaving like one. Huge difference there. Have you read any of his posts? We all have our pet peeves. Stupidity is a pet peeve of mine, even (and especially) when it comes from me. If someone behaves like an idiot, I call them on it.

TODD> <<it was the right thing to do morally.>> And look at what it got him. In the game of survival, morality is a luxery very few can afford. Macbeth should have killed him, while I can respect the morality behind it, and I do carry a tremendous amount of respect for Macbeth. But, damn, I'm sorry but he was an idiot for sparing him... not only sparing him but sending him some place where he could gather an army. And Canmore was hardly an innocent child. He could have at the very least imprisoned him.
Greg Bishansky
Saturday, January 18, 2003 11:35:10 PM
IP: 216.179.3.29

VK -- nobody said that; just that there's a difference between fanfic and publishable fiction. Plenty of people do both.
Christine
Saturday, January 18, 2003 11:06:47 PM
IP: 65.239.47.106

its a huge pet peeve of mine when people refer to other non-retarded people as retarded. calling someone an immature retard shows immaturity. Vault Keeper has done nothing to desearve that kind of treatment, and even if he had its not neccesary in the Comment Room. sorry for the rant.
matt
Saturday, January 18, 2003 08:05:16 PM
IP: 207.230.48.34

SPACEBABIE - I agree with you on Macbeth sparing Canmore. I still say that, while it may have been the wrong thing to do politically (and even then, Canmore only won because Demona gave in to her suspicion and distrust and deserted Macbeth), it was the right thing to do morally.

Also, I certainly doubt that we were meant to view it as the wrong thing, given that a major point of "City of Stone" (and of "Gargoyles" in general) was that "every life is precious" and "death is never the answer". It would certainly have been sloppy writing to, midway through the four-parter, say, "Sorry, we were wrong about this; taking a life was the right thing to do here" with Canmore, and then go back to the "every life is precious" for the remainder of the story after that.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, January 18, 2003 06:48:16 PM
IP: 65.56.170.93

Spacebabie> I had four Wisdom teeth pulled in October and I'm Still hurtin' a little bit. :( Hope you feel better though. :)

Mooncat> I went back today to buy one of the cells (I found money I didn't know I had), and they only had the coldstone one left, to my Horror. (Cells don't last long up here; there gone in hours.) Even that one was a terrible shot, as it only showed the back of G and half the front of CS. SORRY. I'm affraid there's NSL.

Sorry...

and VAULTY> You're no hack. Your a Canadian!!! :)

Later~
Pyro X
CanadaSaturday, January 18, 2003 05:55:16 PM
IP: 205.206.79.107

VAULT KEEPER> Um, no one said you were a hack writer. Read the posts here. But I will say that you are behaving like an immature retard.
Greg Bishansky
Saturday, January 18, 2003 04:02:29 PM
IP: 216.179.3.29

Listen people I get the message, your saying I'm a hack writer who will never be as good Christine.

Well let me tell you something I'm going to prove all of you wrong,
Vault Keeper - [vaultkeeper@dupuis.shawbiz.ca]
Victoria, BC, Canada
Saturday, January 18, 2003 03:27:38 PM
IP: 24.64.223.203

Well my tooth ddoesn't hurt anymore, but I still need to get that wisdom yanked. as a matter of fact I got get all the wisdoms yanked...sigh

Airwalker_

Yes Duncan would have killed Luach, but Mac beth ISN'T Duncan. He ISN'T the Macbeth in the play he is much closer to the real Historical version. Sure some might think he should of but it would be against his honor code. That's why I like and respect the character so much.


Vault Keeper_You can write a book about a different kind of gargoyles. There are some books out there, but they can't be like the Disney version. There are other fantasy creatures out there itching to have their stories told. Good luck on your fan fiction and other ideas.
Spacebabie - [LadyAndromeda@smstars.zzn.com]
Orlando, Florida, U.S.A
Saturday, January 18, 2003 02:00:53 PM
IP: 64.156.211.69

Pyro > I haven't broken into the library system yet, so I'm afraid you won't have much luck finding them there. Any chain bookstore can order the ElfLore ones, the online bookstores can get them, or you can order them right from me. Click my name for the link to my site.
Christine - [christine@sabledrake.com]
Saturday, January 18, 2003 12:36:17 PM
IP: 65.239.13.87

Pyro - hey, can you pass on the number of that Disney Store? I'd love to have a go at the cels if they are decent shots of the characters.

Mooncat
>^,,^<
Mooncat
Saturday, January 18, 2003 01:38:30 AM
IP: 68.102.23.36

All COST way too much for me.

(SORRY for the 2 posts.)

Later~
Pyro x
Friday, January 17, 2003 10:18:22 PM
IP: 205.206.79.107

Ok people, Give Vaulty a break. I mena he -Ahem- *tried* and nothing came of it. *Could* come of it. So forget it.

Yes, he angered some of us. Maybe even miffed.

It's over now... besides, if he wants to write *FAN* fiction, all the power to him. But it won't be *PUB'D FICTION.* Not like Christine's.

(BTW... where can I find your books? What are the titles? I tried my library but NSL... HELP...)

ANY WAY...

ANIMATION CELLS> I was in my local Disney Store today and they had three Gargoyles Cells for sale.

1) Demona / Goliath
2) Coldstone / Goliath
3) Angela / Trio

ALL WAAAAAAAY too much for me... But still cool.

Later~
Pyro x
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Friday, January 17, 2003 09:23:58 PM
IP: 205.206.79.107

Well there goes my idea for a novel series, all well I'll guess I settle for Fan Fiction. Good news is that one of my other writing projects take place in Chiacgo,

OK I'm sorry if I upset anyone fellow well known Gargoyle fans,
Vault Keeper - [vaultkeeper@dupuis.shawbiz.ca]
Victoria, BC, Canada
Friday, January 17, 2003 08:10:37 PM
IP: 24.64.223.203

Uh, folks ... thanks, but please don't point this guy at me. He used to e-mail me his ideas under one name, fell silent for a while, and then popped up under a new name, claiming he'd never written to me before, but sending me the EXACT SAME ideas.

He seems to think that I've got some sort of inside pull with Greg and the gaming industry, and that I can use that influence to help get his (V.K.'s) stuff published or on screen or whatever.

Jeez, if I had that kind of power ... if only I had that kind of power! And if I did, I'd be using it to get _my_ ideas made into an animated series!
Christine - [christine@sabledrake.com]
Friday, January 17, 2003 02:24:45 PM
IP: 65.239.13.231

Vault Keeper - No is saying you shouldn't work on your idea, but it is not a licensed fiction and is definately fan fic.

Yes there are novels based on tv shows that are being officially published -- In this case a company has LICENSED the right to publish novels based on the show and has either already tapped published authors (that's authors who've ALREADY proven they can produce full manuscripts) or who begins reviewing spec script submissions from industry agents representing proven authors. Or that rarest of lucky breaks, someone with a personal connection with in the industry (who still needs an agent) who might get their shot at submitting a spec script.

Then, even if they write out the full novel, the publisher may still decide NOT to publish the manuscript, and the professional author tapped will be lucky to wind up with a simple "kill fee".

I think it's safe to say there is very little chance an unsolicited manuscript from someone without an accredited agent (or do you have an agent?) for a series where there is **NOT even a current project of licensed novels in the works** [by official license holders], for a show that was canceled 8 years ago, and whose story is does not even focus on the canon characters of that show.

Add into this the fact the animated show is not marketed towards young adults/adults who buy novels (even if there is a small, but significant fandom of adults who enjoy the show), but to a younger audience whose demographic sales strength is in toys and action figures-- the probability of Gargoyles novels diminishes even more severely.

Dark Angel, Buffy, Angel, Charmed, Forever Knight, Highlander, Xena... Star Trek ... all are live action *prime time* shows with HUGE audiences in the teen/young adult sales demographic. Show based books are put out based on the already established popularity of a show are common. After a show is cancelled, novels can come out to milk the remaining fan base, but they are usually the "last gasp" at mining a few more dollars out of a property, not an effort to "save" the show.

Mooncat

Mooncat
Friday, January 17, 2003 12:25:06 AM
IP: 68.102.23.36

Well this forum doesn't have spell checker, also I would like to point out the fact that there are Dark Angel novels being made. One is out already, two are in the works.

So it is possable for a series of official Gargoyle novels, look at Star Trek.
Vault Keeper - [vaultkeeper@dupuis.shawbiz.ca]
Victoria, BC, Canada
Thursday, January 16, 2003 09:34:20 PM
IP: 24.64.223.203

VAULT KEEPER> Well, if you want to write professionally, or anything "official" than your grammer definetly needs work. And feel free to work on that project, but understand that it is fanfic.
Greg Bishansky
Thursday, January 16, 2003 05:52:52 PM
IP: 216.179.5.161

Your are saying that I shouldn't start working on this idea, also I still need help of those talented Gargoyle artists.
Vault Keeper - [vaultkeeper@dupuis.shawbiz.ca]
Victoria, BC, Canada
Thursday, January 16, 2003 04:28:56 PM
IP: 24.64.223.203

Airwalker> <<I wish that I could understand exactly how they decide on these edits.>> I believe it to be some combination of reading chicken entrails, a dartboard, and rolling a D20.

<<But I largely dismiss the idea of huge Clans surviving in hiding and then being found and destroyed during the thousand year period following 1057 based on the idea that after a certain point if that were to happen then it kills the idea of them being mythological to the general population.>> Unless of course the evidence was suppressed by the Illuminati.

Todd> <<Richard III>> I thought the Yorkish princes were actually killed by the Tudors, and that Richard's responsibility for such was more of Shakespeare's "historic license", not to say outright pandering to his patron. And for the record, I think killing Prince Canmore was the one time Bhode's advice was on the money.

Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
Thursday, January 16, 2003 04:02:11 PM
IP: 66.142.70.253

S8 messed up the link...

http://gathering.gargoyles-fans.org
Greg Bishansky
Thursday, January 16, 2003 12:39:30 PM
IP: 216.179.5.161

VAULT KEEPER> Listen to Mooncat on this one. It is fanfic (which I also must scratch my head over your disdain for). By it's very definition, it can't be anything but fanfic. And no offense intended, for the past six years I have been in this fandom I have seen many fanfic series, some which were great and exceeded even the heights reached by the series, some that were just plain crap, and many, many in between the two. Your premise is hardly original.

What you are writing will never be official and will most certainly not "save" gargoyles. The best way you can help do that is to attend the Gatherings, help show Disney we're willing to spend enough money on the property to let them know it's worth exploiting further. Their decision to release the DVD so far has been a direct result of these conventions. Click my name for more info.
Greg Bishansky
Thursday, January 16, 2003 12:37:59 PM
IP: 216.179.5.161

Vault Keeper - a) You are a fan (I assume) of Gargoyles b) your Gargoyles fiction is not licensed work, and not solicited by the license holders. I don't mean to tweak your tail feathers, but if you are creating Gargoyles fiction, it *is* fan fiction.

And I would not disdain fan fiction, for many Gargoyles fan fiction writers are VERY serious about their work, and some have produced extremely fine works that would shame many so called "professional" (which only means there was money involved) publications.

Christine Morgan, who creates the most excellent fan fictions for Gargoyles that are epic in scope, is a professionally published author. Others in the field, like Ellen Stolfa and Summer Jackel are so talented, I'd pay hard cover prices to pick up their stories.

The Gargoyles Fandom is wealthy in the many fine "fan" talents, story, art, and other that grace it's community. I'd dare say they are "serious" talents. *^_~*

Mooncat
Mooncat
Thursday, January 16, 2003 01:48:05 AM
IP: 68.102.23.36

I will not write fan fiction, I write novels, comics, scripts for TV and Movies. Which most of them are unpublished,

This is a project, like my many others I shall treat with much seriousness as writting for a novel, so call what you will to me it's not mere fan fiction.
Vault Keeper - [vaultkeeper@dupuis.shawbiz.ca]
Victoria, BC, Canada
Thursday, January 16, 2003 01:20:50 AM
IP: 24.64.223.203

MGC is updated and the winners of the Moulin Rogue Gargoyles contest are announced! :) Also 2 more weeks left to enter the Good and Evil month.
Kessalia - [<< you know you wanna... ]
Wednesday, January 15, 2003 11:05:32 PM
IP: 24.247.97.173

Vault Keeper - Erm... Save Gargoyles? From what? If you mean from being completed and there series officially ended, that happened a good 8 years ago. If you mean being taken off the air, it's on re-runs on Toon Disney and there is no indication it's going to be pulled. It's also supposed to be released on DVD this year (fingers crossed that this project doesn't get scrubbed)-- so Gargoyles isn't in any danger right now that it needs to be "saved" from.

Not to be unkind, but your idea becoming a series of "official" novels is very unlikely to happen unless you are so uber rich that you can afford to buy a license from Disney to write a Gargoyles series... if they'd even be willing to deal a property of theirs like that with a private individual.

You could write a fan fiction series, but that is all it would be, a fan fiction series. If you are interested in Gargoyles Fan Fiction, I suggest going to the Gargoyles Fan Website and checking out some of the very excellent authors who've already done some excellent Gargoyles series and fan novels based on the show.

http://fanfic.gargoyles-fans.org/past30.php

I highly recommend the works of Christine Morgan, Kimberly Towle, Ellen Stolfa, Summer Jackel, and many more who've got fantastic quality works of epic porportion already available.

Good luck on your fan fiction story.

Mooncat
>^,,^<
Wednesday, January 15, 2003 10:53:31 PM
IP: 68.102.23.36

Well still researching for my Gargoyles series idea, which could be made into a series of official novels.


Vault Keeper - [vaultkeeper@dupuis.shawbiz.ca]
Victoria, BC, Canada
Wednesday, January 15, 2003 09:10:24 PM
IP: 24.64.223.203

I don't feel at all disturbed or bothered by "Dark Ages" being a prequel, since what stood out about it to me was its medieval setting. The "medieval Scotland" flashbacks were always one of my favorite parts of "Gargoyles", and a series that would have used that time period as its core setting would definitely have delighted me. I doubt that I'd have been at all disturbed in the fact that we ultimately know how it turned out; what would have mattered to me was that it was an animated adventure series set in the early Middle Ages, with stone castles, pieces of real Scottish history (we can be certain that some of that would have gotten worked in; in fact, the evidence that we have points to the alliance between Prince Malcolm and Hudson originating over the struggle between Prince Kenneth's family and Indulf and Culen's family over the Scottish throne), fantasy elements such as the Archmage, and so on. Definitely my cup of tea.

Of course, that would probably be one of the very elements that would make it difficult to get made, I suspect, since I doubt that too many Disney or network executives would feel confident about getting a lot of viewers for a series set exclusively (or almost exclusively) in the medieval period, with no high-tech equipment around. These days, practically any animated adventure series has to be set in the present day or a futuristic high-tech setting to be accepted, it seems.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, January 15, 2003 06:35:35 PM
IP: 67.28.90.86

I have recently attained a video collection that supposedly had all of the episodes but I found out this was not true. If someone could help me get the missing episodes I will gladly pay them for the help.
John - [Jultreras@prodigy.net]
Wednesday, January 15, 2003 05:07:23 PM
IP: 67.28.101.88

Okay, checked my Halloween Marathon copy of Deadly Force -- It wasn't the credits that I wasn't able to get on disk (switch out time was so short between episodes), but the "Previously On Gargoyles" -- otherwise I have the complete episode, *^_^*, on recorded DVD. Yay!

Went ahead and finalized the disk rather than risk a screw up between now and recording the next two episodes on it.

MC
>^,,^<
Wednesday, January 15, 2003 04:46:06 PM
IP: 68.102.23.36

Yes I know it needs work, if anyone would like to help me out in fleshing this idea please contact me via E-Mail.

That go double for Gargoyle artists,
Vault Keeper - [vaultkeeper@dupuis.shawbiz.ca]
Victoria, BC, Canada
Wednesday, January 15, 2003 03:42:30 PM
IP: 24.64.223.203

Toon Disney showed Deadly Force on the Halloween Marathon. So far it has NOT shown in the regular showing of Gargoyles in the US. Unless it was shown outside the US, it's not been re-shown since the one time showing during the Halloween Marathon.

I've been recording all the US showings since Halloween, trying to get a perfect collection (well, as perfect as you can get with edited shows) of the series on DVD.

The Halloween Marathon had the big cover blurbs that took up a third of the screen when we came in and out of commercial. Ugh. So I'm painstakingly trying to get recordings of the 'normal' showings.

I think the person who burbled so happily about the reshowing of Deadly Force was only referring to the Halloween showing.

Now, it's possible they may show Deadly Force **out of order** ... But so far, Toon Disney in the US shows Gargoyles episodes in chronological (sp?) order, and has for over the past year and a half I've gotten the channel.

Ah well... least I got the Halloween recording, but I had trouble with the recording and I think the end credits got cut off. I have to find the disk now and make sure it's finalized.

later
MC
Mooncat
Wednesday, January 15, 2003 02:23:53 PM
IP: 68.102.23.36

TODD - You wrote: [What I meant was the mere fact that he'd chosen that name as a variant on "Arthur" was a sign that Greg's well-informed on Arthurian matters.]

It is a sign of being well informed (or well researched which ultimately leads you to being well informed, so its sort of the same thing :-) ) but I always figured that "Artus" would come into play rather than using the english version of the name for two reasons -

1. An attempt to avoid using the same names too often in a series to keep things from getting confusing; Its one thing to have an Alexander Xanatos and an Alexander Thailog since odds are that internally the characters will never call Thailog by the name "Alex" but its another thing to have two characters who both use the same name like Coyote and Cyoti. If they appear too often together then there could be some trouble getting across which one exactly people are talking about. (There was a moment like that in CLOUD FATHERS where Goliath was looking for Coyote and gets Cyoti instead. Visually it wouldn't be confusing at all but when the characters are off screen it can be a little disorienting if not handled correctly.)

2. Its sort of a Homage not only to any adventure with King Arthur but also to Princess Katharine. Her mother was French and odds are good that the story of King Arthur that she knew and told to the Avalonian Gargoyles (including Angela) was a French version. Its a subtle way of keeping her mother Katharine in mind when Angela is naming her first child.

You wrote: [(And for all that we know, they might have undergone further Arthurian encounters, as in "Gargoyles/Pendragon" crossovers).]

I think that its a good bet that if not the entire Manhattan Clan then at the very least Goliath and Elisa would be involved in more adventures with King Arthur. There is that whole "Holy Grail" line in SENTINEL that is just crying out for an episode to be shaped around it after all. Given the choice of names for their children, I think that it would be a good bet that again if it isn't the entire Clan involved then on top of Goliath and Elisa that Broadway and Angela might be involved too.

You wrote: [For my own part, "Pendragon" is the spinoff that I'd most like to have seen for "Gargoyles", with "Dark Ages" (because of its time period in the 10th century) as a close second.]

Personally if I was choosing between Spinoffs the order I would go in is this: GARGOYLES, G2198, TIMDANCER, BAD GUYS, PENDRAGON, DARK AGES, and THE NEW OLYMPIANS.

While the idea of PENDRAGON as a series has grown on me, I'm still not that much of an Arthurian buff; I've always been more of an Alternate History/Sci-Fi fan which is why I lean towards G2198 as my first choice after the main series. (I had a hard time in ordering which I would rather see, TIMEDANCER or BAD GUYS, and to be honest if I could I'd probably rank them in the same spot. But what put TIMEDANCER ahead is that when it comes down to it Brooklyn has gotten more screentime than any of the cast who would make up BAD GUYS and has more of my attention and interest. Plus Time Travel interests me; I remember when BACK TO THE FUTURE came out - I was a huge fan.)

The one I not that enthusiastic for is THE NEW OLYMPIANS. While the episode in which they showed up was a powerful one, I just had no sympathy for the cast that did show up outside of Taurus. And even with him I have mixed feelings. I'd watch the show if it were ever made and I'm sure that it would be interesting but my opinion on them is soured by the realism in their behavior in the episode they did show up in and doesn't make me enthusiastic to see them get their own series. (I put DARK AGES as second to last mainly because I'm not really fond of Prequels; I can live with them only if they are either short or highly focused.)


MOONCAT - You wrote: [Yesterday's episode was Temptation. Today's episode is Enter Macbeth. We can kiss Deadly Force good bye once more. Looks like it's not going to be part of the regular line up. Pfeh.]

But didn't someone else just say that a few days ago TOON DISNEY did show DEADLY FORCE again?

I was a little suprised not to see it in place where it should be in the rotation of episodes especially now that they have an edited version to work with. Maybe it'll still show up but out of order? Or maybe they are only showing it on the Weekend cycle of Episodes?
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Wednesday, January 15, 2003 01:36:27 PM
IP: 12.88.160.146

VAULT KEEPER> Good Idea; Needs work. ;)

?????> What is this "rebirth" I keep hearing about? Anyone?

Dark Ages would be the choice of series for me. I's like to see that one the most.

Later~
Pyro X
CanadaWednesday, January 15, 2003 10:29:14 AM
IP: 139.142.189.66

***GATHERING 2003 ANNOUNCEMENT***
Calendar and T-shirt Contests for the Gathering 2003!

The Calendars will be for the 2004 year- yes, there are two separate calendar contests. One for the Gathering, and one for Gargoyles Othercon.

The Gathering Calendar theme is gargoyles in New York City. You know it, you love it, you wish you could live there- or at least visit for a few months. Show us your gargoyles living it up in the Big Apple! Canon and original characters fine for use.

The Othercon art calendar will only be available to those 18 and over, as the artwork in it will be mature content. Submissions will be accepted of any variety, as long as they are tastefully done. (Questions of what constitutes "tasteful" may be sent to gathering@gargoyles-fans.org)

The T-shirt contest is also a dual contest, and should be New York themed. Madison for the Gathering, Death for Othercon. (See the "mascot" section on the Convention site for details.) We are also running a "name our convention" contest for the 2003 Gathering; provide a short motto (3-5 words) for our con for inclusion on the Gathering shirt.

Winners for the T-shirt and Motto contest will get a free shirt.
All artists whose work is picked for the calendars will get a free calendar.

Image resolution of entries should be 300dpi, and scalable to 11 x 8.5 inches. T-shirt entries should be portrait oriented, while calendar ones should preferably landscape style. Entries should be submitted to gathering@gargoyles-fans.org

The submission deadlines are:
Name our convention- March 01
T-shirt contests - April 05
Calendar contests - April 12

Have fun, and we look forward to seeing your work!

gathering.gargoyles-fans.org

Lynati, Gathering Staff 2003
Wednesday, January 15, 2003 12:18:52 AM
IP: 66.142.56.235

Well... BLAST!

Yesterday's episode was Temptation. Today's episode is Enter Macbeth. We can kiss Deadly Force good bye once more. Looks like it's not going to be part of the regular line up. Pfeh.

Oh well. I have the commercial tape, and a copy of the Halloween Marathon version. Still is very irritating.

Mooncat
>^,,^<
Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:52:00 PM
IP: 68.102.23.36

you know that homemade computer game gave me idea on how to save Gargoyles, what we need is a new show. One about a new clan in a differant American city, Chicago.

It's about a female Human who is turned into a Gargoyle, the clan of Gargoyles which this new Gargoyles lives with is called Windy City Clan.

The first season of the show is main theme is the Human turned to Gargoyle is finding her place in society, is she Human or Gargoyle. Also during the first season she spend time looking for a cure t her Gargoyleness.
Vault Keeper
Tuesday, January 14, 2003 10:16:25 PM
IP: 24.64.223.203

Vash you played Gargoyle Rebirth, please give me walthrus for the parts you played.
Vault Keeper
Tuesday, January 14, 2003 09:17:16 PM
IP: 24.64.223.203

AIRWALKER - [Well I think that he had something more specific in mind with Broadway and Angela choosing to use that name (in addition to the names of their other children) more than just Arthurian literacy.]

I agree; I don't think that he was just showing off. What I meant was the mere fact that he'd chosen that name as a variant on "Arthur" was a sign that Greg's well-informed on Arthurian matters.

It's not too difficult, of course, to figure out why Broadway and Angela would name their children after Arthurian figures. After all, Angela grew up on Avalon, and Broadway first came to recognize the value of reading through the Scrolls of Merlin. So the Arthurian world's had a strong impact on them. (And for all that we know, they might have undergone further Arthurian encounters, as in "Gargoyles/Pendragon" crossovers).

For my own part, "Pendragon" is the spinoff that I'd most like to have seen for "Gargoyles", with "Dark Ages" (because of its time period in the 10th century) as a close second.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, January 14, 2003 07:04:55 PM
IP: 67.28.91.239

VAULT KEEPER - You wrote: [Ok again people I ask for help on Gargoyle Rebirth, I'm stuck on the first part.]

I'd love to help but I haven't gotten around to playing the game.


TODD - You wrote: [Well, Britain has a *queen* at present, not a king.]

uh, well, what I really meant to type out was Monarch but, well...... you know what I meant! :-)

You wrote: [I'm sure, knowing Greg, that it would have exhibited a lot of "Arthurian literacy".]

I think so too; although PENDRAGON isn't exact the first from all the spin-offs that I would have wanted to have seen made, I will admit that over time I have developed an interest in the idea and what it might have turned out to be like.

You wrote: [Even to using the medieval French variant on Arthur's name, Artus, as Broadway and Angela's first-born child.]

Well I think that he had something more specific in mind with Broadway and Angela choosing to use that name (in addition to the names of their other children) more than just Arthurian literacy.


MATT - You wrote: [ummm, are you so sure about that? has Greg confirmed that?]

I don't think he has too; the episodes themselves flat out say that. Everyone from the Stone of Destiny to the Lady of the Lake to Arthur himself basically come out and say that he's awake earlier than he should be.

You wrote: [just cuz Arthur thinks he was awakened early, doesn't mean he was]

That is an interesting angle to go from; what if Arthur is wrong? What if he is up early for the calculations of the Fey but in actually is right on time for what his true destiny is? He was supposed to sleep until his country needed him (according to the Magus) - what if he is on time for that but not for what they Fey wanted to use him for?

You wrote: [i know Greg said that there was a reason he and other world heroes were being brought back to the surface]

That interests me; the very beginning of Heroes Awakening (Which is what the VHS release of AWAKENINGS was called by the way) was 1994. What could be so special about the times from that point that would need so many heroes to start to awaken and reappear in contrast with earlier times?
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Tuesday, January 14, 2003 06:41:21 PM
IP: 12.88.160.109

Matt> I think i do recall Greg saying he was early. The lady of the Lake suggested it too.
Jimmy
Tuesday, January 14, 2003 12:17:55 PM
IP: 199.74.80.112

Airwalker> "He shouldn't really be so confident - after all not only is his time over but he's also early for his second coming." ummm, are you so sure about that? has Greg confirmed that? just cuz Arthur thinks he was awakened early, doesn't mean he was, afterall you just said he was imperfect and overconfident! no one else seems to think he was awakened early and i know Greg said that there was a reason he and other world heroes were being brought back to the surface... and i doubt it destiny wanted to keep Arthur sleeping for a while longer that a New York Police woman would've been able to thwart it...
matt
Tuesday, January 14, 2003 02:51:23 AM
IP: 207.230.48.58

14th!!! ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... I can try, can't I?

Today I had my English Final Exam. We had to compare and contrast two Shakespearean characters who have had difficulty in acheiving their goals. I choose Macbeth and Hamlet. My six page essay was grueling, to say the least. I even mentioned Gargoyles: "Macbeth was so messed up that even the Gargoyles looked normal to him..."

I hope I do well.

I must say that all of the Scottish stuff y'all were talking about came in handy. :)

THANKS ALL!

Later~
Pyro X
CanadaMonday, January 13, 2003 11:00:51 PM
IP: 205.206.79.107

Well, Britain has a *queen* at present, not a king. Admittedly, Arthur probably wouldn't want to become king again once he found out that about all they'd let whoever's currently the British monarch do is lay a few foundation stones and make a few speeches. He doesn't strike me as being likely to be too keen on being a mere figurehead with nothing substantial to do.

I doubt also that they'd refer to Arthur drowning the babies (although it has gotten once into Arthurian pop culture, with the graphic novel "Camelot 3000"). I do agree with you, Airwalker, that most people aren't that familiar with "Arthurian history" beyond a few general elements (such as the Sword in the Stone and Lancelot and Guinevere's love affair); that's one reason why I considered it such a pity that "Pendragon" never got made. While it would have really been a sequel-series based primarily in the modern world, I'm sure, knowing Greg, that it would have exhibited a lot of "Arthurian literacy". (Greg Weisman's posts on the subject at "Ask Greg" have certainly displayed a strong familiarity with the legend, down even to using the medieval French variant on Arthur's name, Artus, as Broadway and Angela's first-born child).
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, January 13, 2003 06:48:44 PM
IP: 65.56.171.171

Ok again people I ask for help on Gargoyle Rebirth, I'm stuck on the first part. I can't open any doors or pickup the napsack.
Vault Keeper
Monday, January 13, 2003 02:54:02 PM
IP: 24.64.223.203

LORD SLOTH - You wrote: [Perhaps they promised Macbeth that they would take care off one heir for him, and persuaded him to make the right choice]

I doubt that the Weird Sisters got any more involved than they had already done; Oberon's law is still binding after all. Most of what they did do tended to be passive. Outside of actually casting the spell on Macbeth and Demona the Weird Sisters just hang around watching things unfold. They don't really do anything that forces anyone to do what they want and they don't really actively do anything themselves. I don't think that they were involved at all in any calculations and decisions Macbeth was making when he was dealing with Canmore.

You wrote: [I'd be interested in that too, but I don't think it would clash with his character thus far. Not that he's been in many episodes, but Arthur does come off (for me) as an imperfect character.]

Imperfect is one thing - but having the protagonist of a series (even the series is named after him) do on screen what the legend says he does might first not be able to actually get on screen (especially given today's S&P) and second might undermine him in the perspective of the viewers.

I'm not saying on the other hand that it has to be eliminated either; it doesn't have to be turned into some sort of propoganda that was only circulated by Morgana after Arthur went to Avalon to ruin his reputation. But it would have to be dealt with very carefully if it was going to be dealt with at all. Modern Morality and Medieval Morality were a little different and while the event in question would still inspire some disgust regardless of the time period, it would probably get a much stronger reaction today than it would have back them. Certainly any PENDRAGON cast that is 20th century born is going to have a very hard time dealing with it if it comes up. (On the other hand it doesn't really have to come up; most people are either very light on the details of Arthurian History or don't know it at all.)

You wrote: [Hear how pompous and arrogant he sounds declaring "it is MY sword" and "I AM the rightful king", he sounds a lot like present day Macbeth actually.]

He is overly sure of himself. He really shouldn't be though. Britain has a King at this point and he isn't it. He shouldn't really be so confident - after all not only is his time over but he's also early for his second coming. :-)

And he does have some similarity to Macbeth although I think that Arthur has more confidence and direction than Macbeth. The whole first half of the episode seems to play Macbeth as being aimless despite his search for power, as if he's doing it because he has nothing else to do with his endless life. And then when he gets the possibility of being the true King of Legend, he jumps on it almost out of desperation with some ego and greed playing into it. Arthur is played more as someone singlemindedly heading to what he wants and getting it because of that.

You wrote: [In this case the one would be Canmore, and, apart from a political standpoint, if his death really did bring about a "Golden age" between Gargoyles and Humans, then that sounds like a worthy death]

The entire "Golden Age" thing was just talk, political propoganda. I think that Macbeth meant it as a description to his people that he would improve things but I don't think that he was honestly planning on the Messianic era upon taking the throne or that he would have used any plan for improved ruling as an excuse to justify killing Canmore.

You wrote: [after 17 years it's not going to be that much longer before rumors about sorcery become strong suspicions when neither Macbeth or Demona get any older.]

It helped that Macbeth ended up being much older as a result of the spell. I also don't think that people would take as much notice of Demona not aging; Gargoyles are supposed to age slower than Humans after all. It would have become a problem though after a while although in that case Macbeth could always give up the throne to Luach and have gone off into the countryside or into the shadows to advise his son without being seen.


MATT - You wrote: ["Broadway Goes to Hollywood" was on Toon Disney last night, and i'm almost ashamed to admit that i really enjoyed it.]

If I had to name a favorite TGC episode then it would probably be DYING OF THE LIGHT. BROADWAY GOES TO HOLLYWOOD has some points to it and it certainly isn't the worst TGC episode (that honor is reserved for A BRONX TAIL) but its just difficult to watch the TGC episodes in general, even the less bad ones. I think its seeing the wasted potential that bugs me the most.


SPACEBABIE - You wrote: [Thank you for clearing up who Dan Barn is. I thought he was a Shakespeare characters and I spent hours going through my Shakespeare book trying to find him.]

I think that he was mentioned by Shakespeare somewhere but I'm not sure exactly which play it would be. I was glad to find an answer online; I was a History Major in College but Medieval Scotland wasn't exactly what I concentrated on. :-)

You wrote: [No. It might have caused the people to from a Coup.]

Which people? It was mainly Duncan and Scotland vs Macbeth and Moray. I don't think that Macbeth had anyone outside of his Clan join him against Duncan; I don't think that his Clan would have been particularly upset over Canmore being killed. All those soldiers including the ones who brought Canmore to him must have known that it was a strong option that Macbeth might order Canmore killed but no one seemed concerned or upset over the matter.

The real question is how would the other Lords of Scotland react; its really impossible to say although odds are that given that Duncan lost and was dead plus Macbeth with his Gargoyles had an overwhelming advantage against them individually that they might be willing to overlook a general purge of Duncan's side of the family. Besides isn't that the fate of the losing royal side in Medieval times? Wouldn't Luach have been killed if Macbeth had lost? Nobody would have been shocked by that and I don't think that anyone would have been shocked over Canmore getting killed.


JIMMY - You wrote: [it was still the noble thing to do and I gotta respect Macbeth for that. It isn't easy being that honorable.]

I can agree with that. Maybe Macbeth really wasn't suited to be a King and everyone around him knew it; maybe thats why his father wasn't eager to press a claim for his son against Duncan. Medieval Kings have to make difficult and even immoral choices and Macbeth couldn't do it.

I think what is the worst thing about his choice to give mercy to Canmore is how much pain and cruelty it forced Macbeth into later on. Another bloody war (which might have been different in tone if fought against Donald Bain with who it wouldn't have been so personal), seperation from his wife, his only son killed, and eternal wandering into an existance without any honor whatsoever into a life of fighting the innocent (Goliath and his Clan both in NYC and Avalon) and struggling for power (PENDRAGON). His act of mercy only created more suffering, pain, and anguish.



Without Canmore its possible that Demona might not have betrayed Moray. Who is to say that Donald Bain would have taken the anti-Gargoyle route if he were the one using the English to take Scotland? And who is to say that in that case Bodhe would have made the suggestion that he did make to Macbeth? And on top of all that who is to say that Demona would have chosen to desert to Donald Bain who would have been completely different than Canmore?
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Monday, January 13, 2003 01:44:40 PM
IP: 12.88.161.98

Killing Canmore> Was it a smart decision, nope. Macbeth knew he was a threat. But despite the fact that it was political suicide, it was still the noble thing to do and I gotta respect Macbeth for that. It isn't easy being that honorable.

Donald Ban> Is this the same guy as Donalbain? I think I've heard that name before.
Jimmy
Monday, January 13, 2003 12:45:48 PM
IP: 199.74.80.112

Nine!

Airwalker]---- Thank you for clearing up who Dan Barn is. I thought he was a Shakespeare characters and I spent hours going through my Shakespeare book trying to find him.

Should Macbeth have killed or gelded Canmore??? No. It might have caused the people to from a Coup.

Ugh now I have a frikkin large pain in my lower right part of my jaw. That widsom has got to go!
Spacebabie - [LadyAndromeda@smstars.zzn.com]
Orlando, FL, U.S.A
Monday, January 13, 2003 10:27:08 AM
IP: 65.57.80.147

8th! HELLIG USAVRT! :D
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Monday, January 13, 2003 08:47:33 AM
IP: 66.169.210.231

7TH!!!!

"Broadway Goes to Hollywood" was on Toon Disney last night, and i'm almost ashamed to admit that i really enjoyed it. its my favirote Goliath Chronicles episode, and i like it more than some of the episodes from Season 1 and 2... but somehow, it still feels wrong to like it, lol!
matt
Monday, January 13, 2003 07:25:32 AM
IP: 207.230.48.82

<ENTER LORD SLOTH>

Whoa, Sixth, Nice. I'm back, back from the internet-less holydays, and have been for the past week, but all that Scottish history was making my head spin so I've still been pretty absent around cyber land. Not that that much has changed around here (including the Ask Greg situation though the weekly update suggests something happening), but it's still good to be able to read all your rambles and "creativity demons" once more. <Sigh> Good times.

Macbeth's Mercy> "He appeared to show weakness and left a loose end to haunt him 17 YEARS after the fact. And it cost him literally everything." -Airwalker

Personally, I can't help but be of the mind that "the ends justify the means", or as Mr. Spock says: "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the One". In this case the one would be Canmore, and, apart from a political standpoint, if his death really did bring about a "Golden age" between Gargoyles and Humans, then that sounds like a worthy death (of course, I'll admit that they weren't all that close to a golden age, and after 17 years it's not going to be that much longer before rumors about sorcery become strong suspicions when neither Macbeth or Demona get any older. 17 years is pretty good though, but still, no matter how good it is, I will say that IMO, no human has the right to decide how many years one life is worth to others, but since humans do that all the time anyway, it's best that they make the right choice.

Pendragon's morality> "I'd be interesting in knowing exactly how Pendragon would be able to justify that in the series; he didn't exactly come off in his few appearances as the sort of person that would commit such an act." -Airwalker

I'd be interested in that too, but I don't think it would clash with his character thus far. Not that he's been in many episodes, but Arthur does come off (for me) as an imperfect character. Hear how pompous and arrogant he sounds declaring "it is MY sword" and "I AM the rightful king", he sounds a lot like present day Macbeth actually. That sort of attitude for his kingdom could well lead to some unspeakable acts, if they were heightened and well written. I was quite pleased when I saw this side of him actually because I was afraid he would come off as a totally benevolent king (perhaps just because he looks a bit too much like Jesus (all you need do is replace the plate male with white robes and viola)) but he soon put my fears to rest.

"if they had even dared do it in "Pendragon" in a flash-back or allusion; they might not have, for all that we know." -Todd

Well they already have massacred quite a few humans and gargoyles, both in dialog and on screen. In theory, these massacres include infants too, so I think they might be able to handle this, in one way or another, though it might be tough without converting Arthur over to villain mode. But this is all <IF> the show could run once more with the same S&P settings.

Donald Ban> "Macbeth would still have to contend with a legal heir that could raise an army against him" -Airwalker

Well, if you take Roman Palanski's <SP?> version of "Macbeth" into account, there is that scene and the end that shows Donald Ban lured off screen by the Weird Sisters. Supposedly they planned to do to him the same thing they did to Macbeth, but who knows what sinister idea they had. Perhaps they promised Macbeth that they would take care off one heir for him, and persuaded him to make the right choice (for them) concerning Malcolm Canmore, else he stain his hands (or Lady Macbeth's nightgown) with blood. ;^D

Matt>"lol, i'm so weird!"
Good for you! Be proud of that.

BtW, happy Christmas, Merry New Year (or Hogmanay if you please) and, to all the new people here, welcome. Have a cookie if you haven't.

<EXIT LORD SLOTH>
Lord Sloth - [Spunkidge13@hotmail.com]
Oakville, ON, Canada
Monday, January 13, 2003 07:23:29 AM
IP: 142.55.22.187

Number five!
Patrick Toman
Monday, January 13, 2003 07:00:37 AM
IP: 67.38.241.180

Hello. I thought I'd pop in and claim fourth!
ColdFire
Monday, January 13, 2003 02:14:53 AM
IP: 199.185.30.201

Third in the name of the Fay!

MC
Mooncat
Monday, January 13, 2003 01:55:25 AM
IP: 68.102.23.36

Second. *coughs*
Bud-Clare
Monday, January 13, 2003 01:33:23 AM
IP: 24.169.113.216

Oh, well. FIRST! :-)
warrioress
Monday, January 13, 2003 12:01:53 AM
IP: 208.190.202.171