Comments for the week ending February 24, 2003

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*POPS IN QUICKLY*

TODD> Kepp on posting! Your comments are refreshing!

*Exits to watch FAMILY GUY*

Later~
Pyro X / Battle Beast
CanadaSunday, February 23, 2003 11:56:01 PM
IP: 205.206.79.107

***OFFICIAL TGS ANNOUNCMENT***

We here at TGS have begun an artist recruitment drive for all an any who would like to apply. The application and resume for those who would like to apply MUST follow the following guidelines or it will delay your review in the selection process.

Please send an e-mail to: able_squad@hotmail.com

please include your name(handle) and a valad e-mail address if you are sending from some other account.

The resume may consist of upwards of ten links to your art or web site, which the curent staff will review.

If you do not have a web site or do not have at least three pics to link or feel that these pics are not your best examples you may do the following.

You may include no more than THREE attached pictures each no more than 50k or overall file size less than 150k. Please stick closely to these requirements because if your e-mail is more than 150k it will be rejected and asked to be resent with the pics being smaller. I have to stress the file size requirement because it is a Hotmail account and they will die if it gets overloaded.

Do not send more than three, only the first three will be taken all others are not considered, so take your time and send three good ones or find a way to link to more. Please only send one, resume. Questions may be sent as well, but again, only send three pics.
After your resume has been received you will receive a reply saying that we have your e-mail. Only if you do not receive this reply should you send again.

Applications will be taken until Feburary 28, which is only FIVE DAYS FROM NOW. Soon after that everyone will be notified over e-mail whether they have made it and can begin to work.

Please do not flood the box asking if you have made it, it will not help your case and will more likely hurt.

Questions will be welcomed so that everyone understand what is expected.

Thank you

*END*


Revel TGS Art Director - [able_squad@hotmail.com]
Sunday, February 23, 2003 10:42:57 PM
IP: 129.120.255.198

Thanx. 8-)
D-Marka
Sunday, February 23, 2003 01:27:06 PM
IP: 57.70.4.209

Sorry for the double post...
I think messed the weblink up:( The address is www.gargoyles-fans.org
Enigma
Sunday, February 23, 2003 11:04:29 AM
IP: 24.118.156.5

D-Marka>>>If you have cable they show the gargoyles episodes on Toon Disney. I think it's on at 11:00PM, but I'm not sure. Otherwise you can find pretty good synopsises (sp??) of most, if not all, of the episodes at the Gargoyle Fan Website(click on my name to get there).
Enigma
Sunday, February 23, 2003 11:02:08 AM
IP: 24.118.156.5

Hi, guys! I need u'r help. GRS is my favorite video game. But recently i found out about the cartoon. I saw only 1 episode of GRS (from AVALON) & I like it. Help me to find at least 1 serie. PLS!!! 8-)
D-Marka - [dovgalm@nursat.kz]
Sunday, February 23, 2003 10:43:18 AM
IP: 57.70.4.209

The Warner > Which one are you? Yakko, Wakko, or Dot?

Re: knights > Present day, the title for men is "Sir" and the title for women is "Dame." Sir Laurence Olivier. Dame Maggie Smith.
Patrick Toman
Sunday, February 23, 2003 09:30:09 AM
IP: 65.43.150.124

****Flame shoots out of the fireplace. It seems to reach across the Room to right in front of the buffet. After a second it retracts back into the fireplace, leaving a (still smoking) Blaise gathering up some goodies.**** Back again to release some thoughts that have been scraping at my skull.

BATMAN VILLAINS> Well, I can't speak for the comics, but in the animated series, the Penguin at least didn't go to Arkham--he always wound up at Stone Gate penitentiary. Kind of makes his association with the "crazies" bit more interesting, doesn't it?

DRACON's GANG> Well, Greg has always said that he wanted to do something more with Glasses. Does anyone think Glasses would strike out on his own or something? He does strike me as something of "big man". He seemed kind of put off when Dracon set him to digging with the other "goons" in THE SILVER FALCON. And maybe it's just my personal opinion, but I always thought he was a bit...I don't know...charismatic and subtle than Dracon.

ARTHUR KNIGHTING A FEMALE> This subject kind of reminds me of a scene from the animated series "Prince Valiant" in which Arthur (voiced by Efram Zimbalast Jr., AKA "Mace" Malone) knights Valiant, Arn, and their female friend, Rowan (I'm sure I've butchered the spelling). He dubs Valiant and Arn "Sir" with no pause but as he comes to Rowan, "I dub thee..." then he turns to Gwenivere and whispers, "What do I dub her? I can't very well call her SIR Rowan, can I?" I can't remember how it was resolved, but it was a fun little scene.

Well, my mind is emptied, my belly full, and I shall come again when the opposite holds true. Until then, farewell. ****Blaise loses himself in a cream pie. Literally. Don't ask....****
Blaise
Sunday, February 23, 2003 12:07:26 AM
IP: 209.178.146.104

Todd> "But all the same,your response makes me wonder if maybe my comments have been too good, if they leave everyone else thinking that there's nothing to say in response to them."

....Yeah, I bet that's it. *holds tongue*
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Saturday, February 22, 2003 11:30:30 PM
IP: 24.169.113.216

PYRO X - Thanks. But all the same,your response makes me wonder if maybe my comments have been too good, if they leave everyone else thinking that there's nothing to say in response to them.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, February 22, 2003 09:11:33 PM
IP: 67.28.92.86

TODD> Don't feel bad. When I read your posts, I feel that you've said it all and I really can't respond better than you can. :)


On the topic of strange weather, did anyone see the photos from Newfoundland Canada where the whole city was trapped in ice? ice up to the roofs of cars? Wild eh?

Later~
Battle Beast / Pyro X
CanadaSaturday, February 22, 2003 07:57:57 PM
IP: 205.206.79.107

The long gap between Thursday evening and Saturday may have been partly my fault, given that the last post before the long gap was mine, and was of an Arthurian-based nature - most of the folks here may have felt unable to comment on it. Sorry about that (assuming that my suspicion is correct).

AIRWALKER - I've seen "The Long Halloween" at the local library, and read it a few months ago. A rather good story, actually.

I agree that the gargoyles generally focus on mundane crime, from the evidence; what I was saying was that it generally doesn't get focused on in the series because the gargoyles' brushes with the ordinary criminals generally would be a quick foiling, not enough to fill a 30-minute episode - unless it's a case of helping Elisa stop her old nemesis Tony Dracon. (I sometimes wonder where the Dracon/organized crime stories would have gone had Greg Weisman continued the series; he mentioned that Dracon's gang was broken up by the end of "Turf", after all (and the mere fact that this time he was still in prison rather than out on bail as in "Protection" would certainly indicate that he was losing his influence). What would have happened to Tony after his fall from power? And who'd take over the organized crime leadership with the Dracon mob out of the picture? We'll probably never know now).

One correction on Arthur: he's a "5th century Briton", not an Englishman. The "English" in the 5th century were the Saxons and Angles, his enemies; in terms of modern-day British racial/national divisions, Arthur would be closer to Welsh (or maybe Cornish) than English.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, February 22, 2003 07:03:13 PM
IP: 67.75.177.32

I need more time during the week; I just haven't had a moment until now to really stop by and post anything. Anyway:


TODD - You wrote: [But if he gets killed by a gargoyle, a member of a species with no known interest in or allegiance to human politics, you don't have that factor.]

The real core problem with the plot as we all know at this point is the assumption that the public is going to relate to Gargoyles as if they are just the Mutants of this particular universe rather than just some wild animals plaguing the city. Although even having a public thinking of the Gargoyles as equal sentients still doesn't make the plan "the Illuminati" were using in that episode make sense.

You wrote: [all of a sudden, foreign statesman are a lot less keen to visit the place for international peace conferences and similar affairs, on the grounds that the gargoyles in the city make it far too dangerous for them to go there]

Good; the streets would be a little less jammed and there would be more parking space. :-)

You wrote: [the criminals that Batman caught get sent to Arkham Asylum rather than to prison because it was Batman who caught them rather than one of the police.]

In Batman's case most of the villains that he deals with tend to need to be locked aways in some sort of mental institution. I doubt that any ordinary mugger or theif he would catch would end up in Arkham. But then again when really was the last time Batman really dealt with someone who didn't need to be put in Arkham? With the Gargoyles, their "supervillains" tend to be more of a diversion from their ordinary routine of stopping ordinary crime than the main purpose they run around and fight. Batman (like Superman for that matter) shifted almost completely out of the ordinary crime aspect of their careers; if they do stop it now and then its more boredom or having some free time on their hands than anything else. (Although with Batman most of the crime lords and such were wiped out the first few years of his career by the super villains - check out BATMAN: THE LONG HALLOWEEN if you want to see not only an interesting Batman story but also this shift vividly illustrated.)

You wrote: [they simply focus on the psychopaths because Batman's clashes with them are more likely to have an interesting plotline, while his foiling the ordinary criminals is more what happens on his "routine nights out".]

That is probably more true than not; but still I don't think that they have any balance in the presentation. Pretty much it could be said that while Batman might try to stop a mugging here and there, he spends most of his time on Super-Villains that he keeps fighting over and over again in a sort of stalemate. Dealing with regular crime can produce some very interesting stories too (BATMAN YEAR ONE for example) but we never get that; instead its always Batman and usually the Joker.

You wrote: [It's the same reason why they focus on Goliath and his clan's clashes with the "big super-villains" like Demona and the Pack, rather than their handling the ordinary criminals like the three street-thugs or the guy who kept on robbing Mr. Jaffe.]

While the series did tend to shift away from dealing with regular street crime it wasn't something that disappeared completely and remained an element that was being dealt with, even if it wasn't prominent in evey episode. We had mafia stories, and regular crime stories too. (Those three punks from AWAKENINGS 3 kept popping up. And patrolling for regular crime was constantly kept as a rolling plot even if we stopped seeming the actual crimefoiling. They don't really go looking for Demona or the Pack; when was the last time Batman went out to stop regular crime and ran into the Joker rather than diliberately seeking him out for some reason or other?)

You wrote: [Which, of course, raises the question as to whether Arthur will have female knights in the future of the "Gargoyles" Universe.]

It depends; we don't know enough about the Gargoyle Universe version of King Arthur to be able to say what kind of an opinion he would have. I think that he would probably be uncomfortable with the idea of a female Knight at first but that contact with people and ideas from this era might cause him to shift his opinion. (I'm not sure he would be completely opposed but that he would be more likely to think of Knights as being a Male only thing but that Women could still be able Warriors without the title or perhaps under a different title. He is a fifth century Englishman after all; he can't start out with the same opinion as a 21-21st century individual - it has to be something he'll have to grow into.)

You wrote: [On the other hand, in "Avalon Part Three", he didn't display a similar chauvinistic attitude towards Elisa.]

On the other hand, she wasn't asking to be made a Knight. Perhaps he doesn't have anything against the idea of a female warrior but that he would be a little uncomfortable with the idea of a woman having the title of Knight. That said, it doesn't mean he won't adapt and have female Knights. Being uncomfortable with the idea doesn't mean that he won't change his mind or even just go through with it anyway and keep his feelings to himself.


PATRICK - You wrote: [when's the last time Batman wasted his time on your average garden variety mugger or bank robber?]

Mainly in Year One stories; the honest truth is that if Batman (and Superman for that matter) ever concentrated on just regular crime, they would just be cops in really strange looking uniforms.


GABRIEL - You wrote: [you must also keep in mind that they were in the midst of battle.]

Actually the Vikings had left and the battle was over when Goliath and Hudson went after them. They went off to take action to make sure that the Vikings never came back which sounds a lot like pre-empting to me.

You wrote: [And Goliath went with Hudson to scare them away, not kill them with the entire clan.]

The point was to make sure that the Vikings left the area and didn't return to plague the castle with another attack. The means of doing it was entirely up to Goliath and he chose to scare them off rather than try to wipe them out. That doesn't mean that he wasn't taking pre-emptive action; he was - he just chose what he figured would be a quicker and less bloody way of doing it. In the end the entire point of his going off with Hudson was to make sure that Hakon and the Vikings never came back to pose a threat to the Castle and everyone in it.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Saturday, February 22, 2003 05:57:03 PM
IP: 12.88.199.195

Anyone been experiencing unusual whether recently? Click on my name and be prepared. Listen and react, live.
The warner
Saturday, February 22, 2003 03:13:18 PM
IP: 212.159.30.247

*Enters*

*Drops a Pin*

*LOUD ECHO*

Boy, it's more dead in hear than Jimmy Hoffa is.

*Has Nothing more to say*

*EXITS*

Later~
Battle Beast / Pyro X
CanadaSaturday, February 22, 2003 12:07:31 PM
IP: 205.206.79.107

I doubt that Arthur visited Tintagel during his "missing adventure", since Greg already mentioned that he'd be going there during his Quest for Merlin with Griff, and it'd be repetitive to send him there again. But I've got to admit that seeing the place would come as something of a shock to him, given just what an Arthurian tourist trap it is (as someone who's visited it twice, once in the late 70's and once in 1993, I would know). They've got things like a "King Arthur Car Park" and toy plastic Excaliburs; I even read in a tourist guide (but never saw any of them on either visit) that they sell "Excaliburgers" there! (The Hall of Chivalry in town, however, is fairly impressive; when I was there, they had a nice audio-visual retelling of the Arthurian legend by the voice of Merlin, complete with illustrations in the form of a lot of Victorian-age paintings depicting the major events in the story - I recall one of Lancelot rescuing Guinevere from being burnt at the stake, for example).

I can only wonder what Arthur would have thought, for that matter, of "Monty Python and the Holy Grail". (Though I doubt that his missing adventure involved seeing it, either).

Of course, that leads to the whole question of what Arthur must think about just how famous he is in today's world, all the books that have been written about himself and his knights (not to mention Merlin), the movies, and all the rest. Not to mention the historical controversy over whether he really existed or not. If they ever do make the "Pendragon" spin-off, it would be fun to see if they address that somewhere. (He'd certainly notice that they left out the role that the gargoyles played in his reign, though).
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, February 20, 2003 06:32:22 PM
IP: 63.208.61.2

Round Table<Interesting what known characters would make up this new round table?
The Question
Thursday, February 20, 2003 10:36:58 AM
IP: 66.19.28.164

Todd> "Greg Weisman mentioned that Arthur had an off-stage adventure shortly after leaving Avalon, the details of which are not known, but which was unpleasant enough for him that he returned to Avalon and spent some time there, unwilling for a while to leave."
Maybe he went to Tintagel(sp?), like in TGS. That would certainly put him off the modern world for awhile. Or New Jersey.

"I believe that in the modern-day British order of knighthood (which, admittedly, doesn't resemble Arthurian knighthood that much), female knights are given the title of "Dame" rather than "Sir". But Arthur might not follow this custom."
Ugh... "Sir" it is. ;)

"Which, of course, raises the question as to whether Arthur will have female knights in the future of the "Gargoyles" Universe."
He's be a fool not to. If he can't adapt to the modern world, then there wouldn't be much point to having him around. I think he'd get used to the idea pretty quickly, although it shouldn't be a terribly foreign idea to him anyway. Gargoyles aren't sexist, and Arthur had contact with gargoyles in his own time, so he should be fairly okay with the idea of female warriors.
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Thursday, February 20, 2003 10:28:24 AM
IP: 24.169.113.216

interesting question... anyone know how long Arthur stayed on Avalon when he returned and how long between "MIA" and "Pendragon"?
matt
Thursday, February 20, 2003 10:22:28 AM
IP: 207.230.48.61

Greg Weisman mentioned that Arthur had an off-stage adventure shortly after leaving Avalon, the details of which are not known, but which was unpleasant enough for him that he returned to Avalon and spent some time there, unwilling for a while to leave. At last, however, he did decide to have a second go at exploring the outside world, and left Avalon again, this time being sent to London to meet Griff.

I believe that in the modern-day British order of knighthood (which, admittedly, doesn't resemble Arthurian knighthood that much), female knights are given the title of "Dame" rather than "Sir". But Arthur might not follow this custom. (Of course, there were no female knights in Arthurian Britain - except the borderline case of Britomart in Edmund Spenser's "Faerie Queene" - so he wouldn't have any precedent to follow).

Which, of course, raises the question as to whether Arthur will have female knights in the future of the "Gargoyles" Universe. We know that Blanchefleur will be joining him, but Greg Weisman indicated that she wouldn't have the role of a knight, and I doubt that Arthur would have had any companions other than Griff, Blanchefleur, and Merlin, until he settled down to found New Camelot (which, most likely, would take quite a while).

I wonder how receptive Arthur would be towards female knights. I recall a fanfic from some years ago where he had to form an alliance with Robyn Canmore, but was unwilling for a very long while to accept her as a knight because of her gender. (Of course, we know that Robyn's own role in the future of the Gargoyles Universe is going to be very different, and have little to do with Arthur - other than through the fact that her employer will be at odds with Duval, who is linked to Arthur via his original identity as Percival). On the other hand, in "Avalon Part Three", he didn't display a similar chauvinistic attitude towards Elisa.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, February 20, 2003 07:08:26 AM
IP: 65.56.171.246

Man, I've been gone a long time. Well, anyway, let's get to the questions. Arthur: it could be that it just took onger to get from point a to point b. In Arthur's mission, he recruited Griff as a knight. Obviously, he couldn't have done that before Goliath brought him back to the present, so it's possible that Avalon deliberately delayedArthur's arrival in London until Goliath retrieved Griff.

And knights are always called Sir, regardless of gender. And don't mess with Sir Integra(l). She owns you.
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
Wednesday, February 19, 2003 10:40:18 PM
IP: 209.198.12.162

I felt bad that the room's been so dead lately, so I dug out some questions that I had planned to post at Ask Greg several years ago, but forgot. (He might have just about gotten to them by now, had I posted them.) So, I found a possible topic for discussion... (assuming that we haven't talked about this before, and I just forgot. Think I'm getting a bit senile lately.)

Arthur left Avalon at the same time as Goliath et al. in Avalon part 3, but he didn't turn up in London right away. Anyone care to speculate where he might have been sent in between?

And, on an even more trivial note... The new Round Table will presumably have female knights. Will they still be called "Sir", or by some other title? (*snickers* Integral...)
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Wednesday, February 19, 2003 10:25:24 PM
IP: 24.169.113.216

Hey Guys and Gals.

I was just wondering...

does anyone at DISNEY know of "The Gathering"? Specifically any top brass? Have they ever acknowledged it???

LMK.

later~
Pyro X / Battle Beast
CanadaWednesday, February 19, 2003 09:39:56 PM
IP: 205.206.79.107

Morgan? A good Riggs? Best thing I've heard all day! :)

Later~
Pyro X / Battle Beast
CanadaWednesday, February 19, 2003 07:18:01 PM
IP: 205.206.79.107

I prefer Long Island myself.
Jimmy
Tuesday, February 18, 2003 07:19:14 PM
IP: 199.74.80.183

"There are no e's in "Manhattan", only a's."

A good Manhattan also has whiskey (or bourbon) and vermouth in it... and sometimes an olive or maraschino cherry. ;)

But save those e's, though... Tennessee always needs them. ;)
Patrick Toman
Tuesday, February 18, 2003 05:53:52 PM
IP: 65.43.150.124

Matt> you must also keep in mind that they were in the midst of battle. And Goliath went with Hudson to scare them away, not kill them with the entire clan.
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Tuesday, February 18, 2003 02:15:05 PM
IP: 129.120.35.51

I don't know about being a JL-type group but one idea that's been tossed around a lot even by yours truly has been the idea of a gargoyle joining the NYPD, and given his predisposition for detective stories it's always been broadway, but then who hasn't wanted to put him and someone else in the classic buddy cop movie, and the scary thing is, Morgan would make a perfect Riggs
Shogun Raptor
Tuesday, February 18, 2003 12:06:16 PM
IP: 209.86.183.247

Todd> good eye, my bad. don't know how i let that happen, esspecially since i do know how to spell it... *shrugs*
matt
Tuesday, February 18, 2003 07:05:17 AM
IP: 207.230.48.40

MATT - Sorry for being a nit-picker here, but the correct spelling is "Manhattan", not "Manhatten". There are no e's in "Manhattan", only a's.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, February 18, 2003 06:48:06 AM
IP: 67.28.90.47

i hate that we had to bring this topic into the CR, but i had a thought and couldn't resist adding it here...

"To make things 'worse' I think they'd advocate against any preventive attack on Iraq"
ok, what makes you think the Manhatten Clan would be against the war on Iraq? first of, its not about being traitors cause to betray someone you have to have had some sort of agreement with them in the first place which we don't really have and the gargoyles themselves certaintly have no agreements with Iraq (i think)
second, we have proof in the series that the Manhatten Clan SUPPORTS preemptive strikes. in the first two episodes Hakon and the Vikings vowed they'd be back to sack the castle, so Goliath (though persuaded) decided to attack the Vikings before they could attack the castle.
anyway, i'm not sure what the gargoyles would think about the situation, but we don't know enough to say for certain that they would or would not support the war.

wonder if there was ever an Iraqi Clan...?
matt
Tuesday, February 18, 2003 05:31:43 AM
IP: 207.230.48.29

Actually, I recall that they did show occasional scenes of Batman dealing with ordinary criminals in "Batman: TAS" - they simply focus on the psychopaths because Batman's clashes with them are more likely to have an interesting plotline, while his foiling the ordinary criminals is more what happens on his "routine nights out". It's the same reason why they focus on Goliath and his clan's clashes with the "big super-villains" like Demona and the Pack, rather than their handling the ordinary criminals like the three street-thugs or the guy who kept on robbing Mr. Jaffe.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, February 17, 2003 09:08:14 PM
IP: 67.75.178.21

I thought the big reason most of Batman's catches end up in Arkham as opposed to a regular prison is because most of the criminals Batman goes after are insane, psychotic, sociopathic supervillians. I mean... when's the last time Batman wasted his time on your average garden variety mugger or bank robber?
Patrick Toman
Monday, February 17, 2003 09:01:48 PM
IP: 65.43.150.124

Sorry for the double post, but:

Re the gargoyles crime-fighting actually helping the criminals getting back out on the street faster - I recall a similar scene in an episode of "Batman: TAS", where the criminals that Batman caught get sent to Arkham Asylum rather than to prison because it was Batman who caught them rather than one of the police.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, February 17, 2003 07:10:09 PM
IP: 65.57.59.63

We got a lot of snow here in St. Louis on Sunday, though the city wasn't shut down, fortunately (I understand that things were a lot worse on the East Coast). I actually rather liked it, since all that snow is beautiful as long as it doesn't inconvenience people.

AIRWALKER - That was designed as more of a spoof on super-hero cartoons of the sort where they don't do anything but fight crime than a serious speculation (I certainly don't think that things ever would go this way for the gargoyles) - and, yep, the ones that take that course do so voluntarily and don't seem to mind.

Another big plot hole with the Illuminati's scheme in "To Serve Mankind": it would make better sense to have a human assassinate E--n P-x than to have a gargoyle do it. After all, the whole point behind murdering the poor man was to restart a civil war in his country. Under such circumstances, it would make better sense to have a human assassin, who could pose as a member of one of the warring factions. Then you could have accusations and counter-accusations, back and forth, which would help in starting up the fighting again. But if he gets killed by a gargoyle, a member of a species with no known interest in or allegiance to human politics, you don't have that factor. (Would Austria-Hungary have gone to war with Serbia in 1914 if Archduke Franz Ferdinand had been attacked and killed by a hungry mountain lion, rather than shot by a Serbian assassin?)

Of course, there might have been the theory that E--n P-x was the only statesman in his country who wanted peace and that his successor would be a lot more bellicose. But if that's the case, then peace in his country would still be a lost cause, since it would be dependent entirely on his survival, and P-x struck me as looking elderly and somewhat infirm. How much longer does he have to live? And what if he has to resign soon because of ill health? If the hopes of peace are tied to just one man, then it looks as if you're in for a lot of war.

One creativity demon that I had, by the way, related to that event was New York facing a big problem after Goliath's attack on P-x; all of a sudden, foreign statesman are a lot less keen to visit the place for international peace conferences and similar affairs, on the grounds that the gargoyles in the city make it far too dangerous for them to go there ("If P-x's security couldn't stop a gargoyle from breaking into his limo and carrying him off, then how can we be certain that ours will?"). (Not to mention that one would have expected the city to go full-scale anti-gargoyle after that - as in, the police being instructed to do everything that they can to bag the entire clan - on account of the status of the near-victim).
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, February 17, 2003 06:44:56 PM
IP: 65.57.63.185

BABS - You wrote: [Due to the fact that Im trapped in my house, with the over 2 feet of snow from today.]

Me too! On the up side I didn't have to go to work today but on the down side I live at a corner house and have to dig it out of 2 feet of snow thats come down since last night. I really need to move someplace a little warmer.


TODD - You wrote: [There, they are given supervisors taken from law enforcement, and drilled into a new outlook of being "conventional super-heroes" who never do anything but fight crime, strike dramatic poses on roof-tops, and talk about how they "fight a never-ending battle for truth, justice, and the American way", while being discouraged from having lives outside of crime-fighting]

To be completely fair we should remember that the traditional superheroes who go in for all that non-stop crime fighting and rooftop posing tend to do all of that of their own free will. Largely government sponsered teams in comics tend to be highly covert (and usually disgruntled) so I don't think that turning the Clan into a JLA-lite would be the way any government would want to deal with them. Besides JLA's and such tend to be either clubhouses for the Superheroes themselves or something organized by some really powerful but traumatized and psychologically unbalanced rich guy with an agenda. So unless Xanatos becomes morose and depressed for no particular reason and decides to fund the Gargoyles as a strike force then its unlikely to happen. Any government looking for results would be more likely to get the Pack to work for them rather than the Clan.

You wrote: [After a while of this, Goliath and his clan wonder if they were better off being feared, hated, and hunted.]

Except for Superman and Captain America most comic heroes are either hated or feared or at the very least mistrusted to some degree (from X-Men as most hated to JLA as least hated) so if the Gargoyles had gone down this route then all they would get is twice the work with all the same hate, mistrust, and fear thrown in.


DENIS - You wrote: [I don't think that the clan will tolerate that very long. They had a taste of such 'leach' with the *shudders* Egon Pax affair, and hated it.]

Egon Pax (yes everyone I actually said the full name outright!) wasn't an attempt to JLA the Gargoyles but Illuminati assassin reprogramming with huge plot holes in it. (Like why use Gargoyles and make the entire thing complicated when all you need is a sharpshooter with good aim and one bullet or a car bomb of some sort? And if you capture 4 Gargoyles then why only brainwash one and torture the others when it makes more sense to brainwash all of them as a backup in case the first one fails in his mission?)

I personally don't think that the Gargoyles could last long as superheroes in the spotlight. I could see them slowly become part of the Police Department in some way as time goes on which would be a more realistic way of funnelling their protection desire without violating the law.

(I wonder if they really do that much good; they do stop crime here and there but the way they do it makes sure that the criminal is going to be able to argue his or her way out in court. Demona's argument to Brooklyn in TEMPTATION is even stronger when you consider that the criminal he would have gone after would have to be let out because of the way Brooklyn would have dealt with him - I doubt that any lawyer would have trouble convincing a judge when his client has been badly beaten and been left either unconscious in an alley or tied up hanging to a lampost.)

You wrote: [To make things 'worse' I think they'd advocate against any preventive attack on Iraq]

What makes you say that? They are warriors after all and not only that but also medieval warriors. I don't think that they would have any particularly negative views on pre-emption and while Goliath might be a philosopical and a bit unhappy about war and conflict in general I don't think he would shy away from confict, not when we're talking about as bad a ruler as Saddam. Violence for the Gargoyles was (and still is to some extent) a part of life; they fight battles, they plan, attack, and defend. I don't think that they would view War as an absolute evil; something unpleasant and undesireable but sometimes necessary.



By the way, I managed to get a chance to see DAREDEVIL this past Saturday. I really recommend this to anyone who wants to see in many ways a very realistic portrayal of a comic book superhero. It was a very dark but very interesting movie although it did feel like it sped through the comic story arc that it was based on; I felt that it could have used another 10 minutes here and there. Still I hope that we manage to get a sequel out of it; the story we got was very solid and well acted. (Not to mention all the cameos and little injokes that they managed to sneak into the movie; loved the Frank Miller cameo. :-) ) I don't know what all those movie reviewers had against it. They seem to have thought that they would be seeing Shakespeare or something. Now I'm just sitting and waiting to see the Hulk movie (they had a trailer for it and it looks great) and X-Men 2 (which I think will be better than the first one from the look of things).
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Monday, February 17, 2003 02:31:55 PM
IP: 12.88.167.104

Todd> Why does it always have to be the 'American way'? Your country is about as screwed as my country :P
Silverbolt
Monday, February 17, 2003 01:14:30 PM
IP: 81.131.188.207

Hello!

Todd's 'Gargoyles Squad': I don't think that the clan will tolerate that very long. They had a taste of such 'leach' with the *shudders* Egon Pax affair, and hated it. Beside, Gargoyles aren't interested in American Way, nor European, Russian, Chinese, Cuban or whatever human Ways, for the matter. To make things 'worse' I think they'd advocate against any preventive attack on Iraq (probably branding them as potential traitors, and result in shortening their leach).
With Elisa's forbidding, it would be the last straw and they would break away. Violently if needed. you know how Goliath is. So it'd be back to square one.
except this time, it's the governement agencies like FBI or worse, NSA they'll have to deal with.

what do you think of my analysis?

Denis - [d.deplaen@lft.be]
Monday, February 17, 2003 12:12:07 PM
IP: 217.136.1.97

VASH> I was just wondering because I filled in some of his Biographical info on www.imbd.com...

Thanks anyway!!!

Later~
Battle Beast / Pyro X
CanadaMonday, February 17, 2003 11:18:44 AM
IP: 205.206.79.107

Todd: "and talk about how they "fight a never-ending battle for truth, justice, and the American way", while being discouraged from having lives outside of crime-fighting"

The Gargoyle "Justice Guild" :)
Leo
Monday, February 17, 2003 08:21:06 AM
IP: 68.96.8.12

Just for the fun of it, here's an admittedly somewhat twisted notion for how the series might continue past "Angels in the Night" if the "Goliath Chronicles" were to be viewed as canonical:

The gargoyles discover the flip-side of having become recognized as protectors after saving the passenger train. The Manhattan city government has them moved out of the castle (on the grounds that it's considered inadvisable to have them living with a private citizen, especially a private citizen with Xanatos's dubious record) into a newly-built structure in the middle of Central Park, the "Gargoyle Watch-Tower". There, they are given supervisors taken from law enforcement (none of whom are Elisa or Matt Bluestone), and drilled into a new outlook of being "conventional super-heroes" who never do anything but fight crime, strike dramatic poses on roof-tops, and talk about how they "fight a never-ending battle for truth, justice, and the American way", while being discouraged from having lives outside of crime-fighting (and with Elisa being officially forbidden to do any more interacting with the clan except on a strictly business level). After a while of this, Goliath and his clan wonder if they were better off being feared, hated, and hunted.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, February 17, 2003 07:06:12 AM
IP: 67.28.88.149

well, i missed the top ten, but at least i end up at my lucky number 11!
*sigh* off to school...
matt
Monday, February 17, 2003 06:14:30 AM
IP: 207.230.48.28

10! Oh yeah, uh huh do a dance, whoo!
Silverbolt
Monday, February 17, 2003 05:47:25 AM
IP: 81.131.107.17

<ENTER LORD SLOTH>

#9.

Babs> Lucky you. It's snowing a bundle here to, but it makes no difference when you live in the same building that you go to school. I'm having trouble remembering the last time I went out side; apart from getting groceries that is, and running through the woods late at night, in -3 Celsius, with no shirt on. Ah, boy that's invigorating!
Wait, I think I've said too much. I better just...

<EXIT LORD SLOTH>
Lord Sloth
Oakville, ON, Canada
Monday, February 17, 2003 02:59:55 AM
IP: 142.55.246.4

8th!! Weeeeeeeeee!!!
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Monday, February 17, 2003 01:27:55 AM
IP: 129.120.86.120

........................7th.
Great... I move out of Brooklyn, and now it snows every other day... why did I move to Florida?

Vin
castle0909
Monday, February 17, 2003 12:50:36 AM
IP: 172.141.114.71

6th in the name of the Fay!

MC
Mooncat
Monday, February 17, 2003 12:45:22 AM
IP: 68.102.23.36

5th!!
Due to the fact that Im trapped in my house, with the over 2 feet of snow from today. the 4 inches from yesterday and the few inches from a few days ago. Looks like I'm gonna to be stuck here for awhile.

Babs
Monday, February 17, 2003 12:22:43 AM
IP: 68.83.228.122

4th
Jimmy
Monday, February 17, 2003 12:16:32 AM
IP: 199.74.80.183

Third!
Demona Taina
Monday, February 17, 2003 12:16:30 AM
IP: 196.42.28.57

*sneeze* 2nd or 3rd. Damn, here comes the blizzard.

PyroX> He lives in So Cal atm. He lived in NY for a while. Dunno where he was born, though.
Vash
Monday, February 17, 2003 12:08:47 AM
IP: 129.98.123.136

*Yawn* First?
Enigma
Monday, February 17, 2003 12:02:41 AM
IP: 24.118.156.5