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Comments for the week ending April 5, 2004

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"Jump the Shark">

World Tour: It was quite long-winded wasn't it? I guess the one thing I wish would of happened during the course of the World Tour was to break it down more between Goliath, etc. and what's going on back in New York. There should have been a few more episodes taking place back in New York in between Goliath and crew. I'll admit I was also very impatient. The suspense was gnawing at me every episode of the world tour. "When ARE they getting home?!"

Of course, years later after seeing the series again, I didn't seem to mind as much. I couldn't tell whether it was because I already knew what would happen or if my renewed interest allowed me to enjoy what was happening rather than being anxious about what to expect. Maybe little of both.

Time Slot:
I sooo hated it, when I found out that the Goliath Chronicles being made to supposedly continue the story (or so I thought) were only going to air on Saturday mornings. I was in a bowling league that bowled when it aired, and rarely saw any of the episodes. I think I saw maybe one while it aired on TV. Again, years later after I saw the series again in its entirety, I realized I really wasn't missing much after all. ;-)

Jim R. - [jim@dialwforwarp.com]
Sunday, April 4, 2004 07:15:05 PM
IP: 65.40.75.66

Xanatos's portrayal in "For It May Come True" was a bit iffy - his attack on the gargoyles felt a bit more "conventional cartoon villain", but his line to Goliath in the hospital, "I make my own visiting hours", was definitely the sort of thing that he'd have said in the first two seasons. (The episode was also blessed with the best Owen moment in the "Goliath Chronicles", where Goliath's ranting to Owen about suddenly finding himself human and married to Elisa, and Owen says simply "How nice for you.")

I'm also at a loss as to how the Cadfael bit got into the "Gargoyles" page at "Jump the Shark".

I think that the retrocon complaint regarding "Avalon" was aimed at the eggs turning out to be alive rather than the way that Kenneth and Constantine were handled.

That is a good point over why Demona makes New York the headquarters of most of her schemes. I think that the early ones were based largely on the fact that she was working with Xanatos then and needed to be close to his headquarters while making use of his resources. Her scheme in "The Reckoning" was directed at bringing Angela over to her side and getting rid of the rest of the clan, so that *had* to take place in New York. "Hunter's Moon" is more of a mystery, however; my best guess is that she hadn't yet had time to open major branches for Nightstone Unlimited in other cities and so had to carry out the operation in New York in order to make use of its resources (such as Sevarius's carrier virus). Perhaps if the series had lasted longer under Greg's leadership, Demona might have established bases outside of New York. (Another possibility is that Demona might have wanted to base her Hunter's Moon scheme in New York so that she'd have the "fun" of watching Elisa succumb to the plague, something that she wouldn't have the opportunity to do if she'd done it in, say, Los Angeles or Paris.)

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Sunday, April 4, 2004 06:37:54 PM
IP: 4.244.12.151

Regarding the whole "jump the shark" thing, you know what they say. Opinions are like ... everybody's got one.

And yes, the Wyvern Massacre discussion... I remember the arguments well. What did Demona know and when did she know it? Who else knew and when did they know it? Why wasn't more done to prevent it? It's an interesting exercise in 20/20 hindsight... very much like the 9/11 commission. Goliath was a leader clueless to the impending doom and he's seen as a victim. Meanwhile, Dubya takes a media drubbing. I guess politics is funny that way.

Oh yeah...

124 days left until The Gathering 2004 in Montreal, Quebec!

Patrick - [<-- allez ici pour information dans le Gathering]
Sunday, April 4, 2004 03:55:16 PM
IP: 65.43.158.69

You don't take the comments at Jumptheshark with a grain of salt, you take them with a pound of salt.

Blaise - <That one about the "multiculturalism" ruining the show sounds to me like it's coming from someone who'd prefer there be only one culture in the world, period.> The only time I feel like complaining about 'multiculturalism' is when the theology of the show doesn't add up because of contradictory religious beliefs being all shown as right. In the case of gargoyes, I've never felt that any story actively pushed any religion.

Z - <All of those off-base comments from JumpTheShark are just evidence that one should rarely enter into a discussion ready to put stock into what someone else says.> Honestly, I'd like to see all the ones that are totally off-base removed [where in the heck did that moron get the info on Elisa's brother]. I think too many people saw "Double Jeopardy" without seeing "Sanctuary" and "Protection". Thailog isn't a cliche villian.

DPH
AR, USA
Sunday, April 4, 2004 03:25:54 PM
IP: 67.14.195.41

****Blaise walks into the Room...or at least Blaise's legs sticking out of the mouth of the shark last seen pursuing him. With a muffled "Hello all," Blaise finally manages to fling the shark from the upper portion of his body and out the window.**** Whew! Finally.

PUNCHINELLO> The Sister's weren't wrong in my opinion.
I mean, who ever said that Demona's part in the Wyvern massacre warranted punishment--let alone one like what Hakon should have received? The Sisters never did, as far as I can tell. And I can't think of anyone else who said so. The fact is that the massacre was made possible because of Demona's actions (or in-action as the case may be). She should have gotten the others out of there, or come clean when things went south. Actually, I don't think the betrayal was even her idea to begin with (I read somewhere in Ask Greg that it was the Captain's).
And you're right--given the treatment of the nobles at the castle and the disregard of the soldiers, who can really blame them? Leaving aside Demona's fear of her visit to "the future" coming true, a lot of the humans were big jerks. But again, this is that part of the tale where proverbs and Aesop-like morals come into play, like "two wrongs don't make a right" and "an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind."
Now, I do not pretend that I would necessarily have been any better than Demona or the Captain here. There've been times when I have engaged myself in fantasies of revenge on those who have wronged me, and freely ignored those sayings. I never acted on them, and I hope I never do, but the point is that everyone's susceptible to a desire for retribution. In fact, the only person in the GARGOYLES series who tries to avoid revenge completely is Xanatos--and in some ways he can be more cruel than Demona (he gets no pleasure out of it, but still...).
As for Katharine and the Magus, they got better. It took the Massacre and their own captivity/near death to do it, but when they changed, they changed good. Actually, with the way the Magus acted in AVALON he seems to have achieved that sympathetic quality your friend said he lacked. At least, a number of fans seem to think that way, judging by reactions. So, those two were not irredeemable.
And let us not forget that Katharine's father, Malcolm, was a good friend to the clan (and the Captain's best friend), and that the nobles tend to act on the opinion of who's in charge, so all this was probably a non-issue until Katharine came into power. However, in a way Malcolm helped cause Katharine's dislike for the gargoyles, by using them as a convenient impetus (i.e., boogeyman) to get little Katharine to behave. He never meant for what was to come--probably never considered it possible--but his careless action planted that seed in Katharine.
And what about Tom? The little peasent boy who actually tried making friends with the Trio. The Captain and Demona's plan would have seen him carted away, too.
Anyway, going back to the Sisters. Demona (in a state that may as well have been induced by pentethol) said that she wanted "revenge for [her] clan, revenge for [her] pain." Okay, fair enough. The Sisters asked who destroyed her clan and who caused this pain. Demona answers that the Vikings destroyed her clan, and the Sister's asked "who betrayed the castle to the Vikings." Okay, now I can see where you're coming from here, Punchinello. On the surface this would seem to be the Sister's implying that Demona might as well have wielded the mace herself. Except, I don't see it that way. In all three of the Weird Sisters examples, there's always a human behind the mace. But that human would not have had the opportunity were it not for some action on Demona's part. That was the point--that in each case she had *some* responsibility (not necessarily as much as the humans' though). She just refuses to take any responsibility whatsoever--and ultimately this allows her to make the same mistakes and suffer the same consequences (heck, in Moray's fall Demona became the active betrayer as oppossed to the more passive second-party she was at Wyvern). One has to recognize one has made a mistake in order to learn from it and move on. Demona doesn't want to do even that.
This is starting to get a bit thick, so I'll try to close it off here. First though, let me just say that your comments are very thought-provoking and well-worded, Punchinello. I really wish the Ask Greg submit feature was running--Lord knows the issues you raise here are a heck of a lot more interesting than "what comes out of a gargoyl?" ;-)

DPH> Heh, don't you just love those comments?
That one about the "multiculturalism" ruining the show sounds to me like it's coming from someone who'd prefer there be only one culture in the world, period.
And then there's the one that obviously has NOTHING to do with GARGOYLES whatsoever. More evidence that one should not toke and surf. :-D

That's it for me, but hopefully I'll have more later on. Until then, farewell. ****Blaise turns to leave, and the shark flies back in through the window and once again swallows him up to the waist. Heaving a long-suffering sigh, Blaise walks back out of the Room.****

Blaise
Sunday, April 4, 2004 01:36:19 PM
IP: 209.178.189.8

BLAISE - You wrote: [And as for the other things the Sisters pointed out--Demona did create The Hunter (she scarred Gillcomegain, giving him a focus and a drive for his burning rage)]

The thing about that is that while she did create The Hunter, she also got rid of him. The current Hunters are in no way connected with Gilcomgain who is the Hunter she created. Duncan took up the Hunters mask without any connection to Demona and while Canmore took up the mantle partially due to Demona, it was not exclusively due to her; Macbeth plays a big part in that.

You wrote: [She is, in her own mind, a blameless pariah and martyr.]

Pariah, yeah. But martyr? I'm not so sure about that mainly since she hasn't actually successfully completed any of the plans she's pursued that would have led her to "martyrdom". Maybe Blameless Pariah and Potential Martyr would be a better way to put it.

You wrote: ["Xanatos repents"...well, I'll have to go with Greg on this one--if they're talking about how he was portrayed in the last 12 eps of TGC, I can't say I blame 'em.]

Let's give TGC just a little bit of credit - they did have a good Xanatos moment; lets not forget his appearance in Goliath's dream sequence in FOR IT MAY COME TRUE. But overall I do agree that TGC wasn't good to any of the characters involved.


TODD - You wrote: [However, the Captain would most likely have done it even if Demona had never been hatched (he had the means, opportunity, and motive without her.)]

Actually The Captain needed Demona's involvement but not her help simply because her giving "permission" to the plan gives him validation for what he was doing. In fact, I've always wondered who approached who first about the plan. On the one hand we've always thought that Demona had a strong hand in it and that her blaming the Captain in later years was just her way of coping, her survival mechanism at work. But what if it were the Captain who hatched the plan and approached her with it? We know that he did most of the work - while her passive role deserves condemnation, could she be that far off from the mark in accusing and blaming him for what happened?

You wrote: [So why is it that we tend to focus more on Demona than on the Captain when looking at the betrayal?]

She's alive and kicking; he drops off a cliff in the middle of the second episode. Its that simple. Also it is Demona who is mostly bring up the Massacre whenever she sees Goliath. Its the defining event in their modern relationship - she can't find a way to not blame him for it without blaming herself so she keeps bringing it up. Her bringing it up makes our associations of it with her more prominent.


Z - You wrote: [Not necessarily. They can always imprison her forever as was the case in "The Reckoning".]

Imprisioning an immortal only delays the issue; she could have sat in that cell for 200 or 300 years and then when nobody would be left who would remember her or why they were holding her, she could have either talked her way out or just escaped once the bars got rusted enough to knock them out. Outside of her changing her goals or Macbeth killing her, there is no way to defeat her. She can only be delayed.

You wrote: [I'm sure he would not hesitate to kill Demona (and subsequently himself) if it meant saving even one other life.]

In battle, sure. But just walking up to her while she's trapped in a cell and shooting her? He'd have to be in a very bad state of mind to do that. (Most of his direct fights with Demona usually have him in some sort of deeply depressed or deeply angered state of mind. If he wasn't having emotional problems at the time, I think that it would be difficult to just have him show up and kill her so easily.) Besides I don't think that Goliath would consider that option.

You wrote: [However, while Demona has proven to be very cunning and systematic in some of her vengeful plans, she seems much too filled with rage to be willing to wait that patiently for her "victory".]

Its true that she wouldn't take the route of letting time deal with Goliath. But that doesn't mean that it isn't possible. Its just not probable that she'd use that type of plan. But in and of itself its not a bad plan. I can't figure why she bases herself in NYC for example. If she really wanted to succeed, why not set up in some godforsaken place like New Jersey or France? Somewhere where she wouldn't be bothered by anyone. The clan never goes off Manhattan and probably wouldn't consider looking for her there; she could easily plot the destruction of Humanity without interference.

You wrote: [Has Greg ever said that Demona would, in fact, change her ways, or is that just the road that TGS decided to travel down?]

Greg mentioned that she'd be fighting for the good guys in the future. He never specifically said that she would actually become a good guy, just that she would side with them.

(After all when its her Great Grandson vs Space Aliens, its not such a hard choice to make. What I always wondered about G2198 is that Greg says that none of the clans bothered to keep track of lineage so the only way anyone knows that Samson is a descendent of Goliath is the fact that he looks a lot like him except for coloring. But wouldn't Demona have kept track of it so that she would know who exactly are all of her descendants?)

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Sunday, April 4, 2004 12:00:18 PM
IP: 12.75.160.4

*****TGS RELATED MATERIAL. DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVE NOT READ TGS*****

Airwalker wrote "I wonder if Brooklyn, after he gets done Timedancing might have become a bit more farsighted in strategy than he and Goliath are now."

That got me wonder this: It is in the first season of TGS's version of Timedancer, we first learn that Demona reforms in the future. Has Greg ever said that Demona would, in fact, change her ways, or is that just the road that TGS decided to travel down?

Peace

Z
Sunday, April 4, 2004 10:52:02 AM
IP: 67.66.158.9

Airwalker - <Goliath and Clan can never defeat Demona - her immortality makes her undefeatable.>

Not necessarily. They can always imprison her forever as was the case in "The Reckoning". There's always the Macbeth solution as well. Despite occasional actions throughout the series, Macbeth is really a noble character at heart. I'm sure he would not hesitate to kill Demona (and subsequently himself) if it meant saving even one other life.

<all Demona has to do to defeat him is take a vacation for a generation or three and then nobody is going to remember her, let alone have the ability to stop her.>

This is true. However, while Demona has proven to be very cunning and systematic in some of her vengeful plans, she seems much too filled with rage to be willing to wait that patiently for her "victory". The only time she has shown such patience was in acquiring all of the necessary items over the years for her plague. She was fairly patient in "The Reckoning", but that wasn't a very long wait.

DPH - Right you are. All of those off-base comments from JumpTheShark are just evidence that one should rarely enter into a discussion ready to put stock into what someone else says. There are far too many idiots out there. But hey, I guess I should try not to be so cynical on a Sunday during Lent. :)

Peace

Z
Sunday, April 4, 2004 10:40:36 AM
IP: 67.66.158.9

...
Anonymous
Sunday, April 4, 2004 10:20:58 AM
IP: 63.185.40.106

I read that statement by the reviewer on this "jump the shark" site by the way. The one who referred to the whole production as a "kickass cartoon that went multicultural." I didn't get past the second sentence without declaring "who the hell is this fool?" I think the problem might reside more within his assumption that multicultural (non-western?) is somehow in conflict with a desirable narrative, than with his apparent hallucination of a multicultural theme in the show.



Punchinello
Sunday, April 4, 2004 06:21:11 AM
IP: 217.220.253.9

"What the series is trying to show is that the solution she followed is the wrong one--morally and pragmatically."

Well, was it the wrong one? I'm not sure. I suppose you could make a stronger case for violence being a non-pragmatic solution since it invites reprisals from her enemies, but as it has already been pointed out, her primary motivation (I think) was never to save her species but to seek retribution upon human beings. Fear of reprisal may not need to enter the equation given that objective. I'm not really convinced of the morality of her solution if it comes to that, but I'm troubled by the assumption that her "participation" in the original massacres were somehow non-moral. To the best of my reccolection, her actions in both were retaliatory. That changes the picture of the moral status of her actions. After all, was retaliation not a reasonable reaction? How much must a people tolerate? Living as non-citizens without attendant rights or dignity was bad enough, but to then suffer a violent (and genocidal) attack by (from D's perspective) the same party surely must make her solution legitimate.

Of course, you're careful to premise your statements with the theme that "the ends don't justify the means" that could be read into the show. I don't know that this premise is true though. _Do_ the ends ever justify the means? If they don't then why not? This premise seems to assume what it should be trying to offer proof for. If violent means achieve an end which mitigate more suffering than they cause, then there must be some argument to be made in favor of them.

"what they (the Captain and D) did was still wrong, and they should have borne their share of the responsibility."

Well, again, I'm not sure of this. I mean, in what way can we say either of them is meaningfully responsible for the massacre? I think the only way they can be reasonably judged is by their intentions, and those intentions were pretty noble (I think) even if they were devious. How can we possibly judge them on the basis of an unforseeable scenario that emerged from their other objective, to liberate the clan. I suppose we could question their motives in wanting to do harm to Catherine and the inhabitants of the castle, but why would we? There was nothing sympathetic about that particular cast. I recall watching the show with a friend years ago. She described the Magus as a strange amalgamation of Faust and Rasputin, but without all of the qualities that made either of those sympathetic figures. I may have asked rhetorically of Catherine, "why hasn't anybody killed her?"

These were not characters that warranted our investment. They were repugnant. The captain though, with the simple line "they are not my kind" confirmed himself as a character of high ideals. He was morally troubled by the treatment of the gargoyles and he acted upon that. His situation is very similar to D's. A noble end backfires because of his weakness. Hakon Threatens him when he attempts to stop him from using the mace, and he backs down instead of fighting him. So what guilt do either he or D possess? Guilt of weakness? I don't think we can meaningfully malign a persons intentions for the failures that emerged from their weakness.

"I must also disagree with your assessment of Goliath's reaction to her, and the weird sisters listing of her actions."

On the matter of Goliath's condemnation of her, I don't think I have given you anything to disagree with, since all I said of it was that I frowned upon it. I did.

The Weird sisters are another matter. Your thesis seems to be that they don't specifically compare her to Hakon by name, and that they illustrate that D harbors responsibility for the massacre due to her part in the plot. I don't really disagree with your reading, but what you have stated here is precisely where I find the error in the sisters "reasoning" and what leaves me so dissatisfied with the way the character is treated in the context of the narrative. They are assigning a kind of "blame" to D. So the quality of the responsibility she had in the massacre is thought to be something she warrants punishment for. That's what I find impossible. You simply can't attatch the same quality to D's involvement in that event. Hers is not the kind of "responsibility" that entails blame. It barely even entails accountability. In Hakons case, his culpability was that he had a malignant end. It was his _agenda_ to carry out the massacre. Demona's just sort of blunders into that participation. The responsibility we talk about with reference to D and the captain is qualitatively different from the responsibility of Hakon. If the sisters don't equate the two as you contend, then why on earth do they treat them as if they were qualitatively the same thing? Culpability which we can meaningfully blame someone for.

It seemed to me at the time that the quality of their thinking was very poor. I think what irritated me most by that whole exchange was that there was an understanding that the sisters were otherworldly and somehow had a supernatural insight into the truth of the matter. Except...they were wrong. Wildly so, in fact.

Punchinello
Sunday, April 4, 2004 06:03:04 AM
IP: 217.220.253.9

I'm going through selected quotes from JumpTheShark about Gargoyles:

>Classic case of the kickass cartoon gone multicultural. You know what I'm talking about, all those BS African legends and that stupid Irish episode and the loopy Egyptian episode and the retarded Native American episodes (note the use of plural, as in episodes;

Please, I didn't feel anything in those episodes was about 'multicultalism'.

>The real surprise to me was that the obvious source of decay in the show (IE the PACK) didn't really destroy the show.

Let's see. What are heroes without good villains?

>When there were more Gargoyles than there were humans on the planet, things got out of hand. The Aztec gargoyles were the final straw

*stratches head* At what point were there more gargoyles than humans?

>The great strength of the show was also the cause of its downfall. They remembered what had happened before and things had consequences. but eventually they wrote themselves into a corner they couldn't get out of.

Unless that's referring to the TGC ending, I don't understand.

>7: Irish Culture seems to have penetrated the entire world...even ancient Africa and Medival Japan.

lol

>5: Hypocrisy...one minute Goliath is bitching at Demona about every life being precious, the next hes splitting open skulls like ripe melons.

what show was this guy watching?

>4: When Disney started taking revisonist history to a whole new level with that entire Avlon storyline.

Didn't Greg Weisman say that he researched stuff?

>3: When Eliza's brother, a no talent out of work (probably doped up) football player whupped Goliath's ass week after week . . . Wasn't Goliath supposed to be a master warrior who slew people every other day or something. . .First off there was Oberon...portrayed as the supposed master of all Gods and Religions. . . Then theres the whole Puck thing...Owen is Puck and Vice Versa. Can anyone here say "forced for shock value."

Which show was that guy watching?

>Cadfael never jumped, but let's get his relationship with the sheriff straightened out- Hugh is supposed to be "best friends" with Cadfael. I would give anything for more episodes.

Which show was this guy watching?

>One word: Thailog. You know a show's in trouble when it starts to resort to cheezy and oh-so-cliche plots like the "evil twin" story. Even the name "Thailog" is so lacking in originality, it's pathetic. Oh, and the constant flashing back to medieval times-while a theoretically good idea-kept throwing me off.

What show was this guy watching?

>The "Round-the-World Cruise" sequence completely bunged up the series' already gnarled continuity. I enjoyed the series until then but was gradually turned off as the series played more and more to a smaller and smaller audience of detail-obsessed fans.

Huh?

>I don't think it ever really jumped, but the whole world travel thing where it turns out there are actually like a thousand gargoyles in the world in about every country really took something from the show.

Every other country?

Summary: The majority of the people had it right: TGC was the downfall of Gargoyles.

DPH
AR, USA
Saturday, April 3, 2004 11:40:03 PM
IP: 67.14.195.15

One thing that I've noticed is that the person who was really focal to the betrayal of Castle Wyvern was the Captain of the Guard. It was the Captain who did all the actual work (meeting with Hakon, cutting the bow-strings, lowering the drawbridge). Demona's role was far more passive: she agreed to the plan, and then when it became clear that it wasn't going to work, instead of warning the other gargoyles, hid by herself outside the castle. Morally she has to share in the responsibility since she supported the Captain's scheme and did nothing to stop it even when she understood how things were going to go awry; however, the Captain would most likely have done it even if Demona had never been hatched (he had the means, opportunity, and motive without her).

So why is it that we tend to focus more on Demona than on the Captain when looking at the betrayal? I think that a major part of it comes from Demona having the bigger role in the series. The Captain died only a few hours after the massacre when he and Hakon fell off that cliff, and only returned once (in "Shadows of the Past"). Demona, on the other hand, became one of the main antagonists of the series, showing up in a lot of episodes, including the finales for both Season One and Season Two. So she's far more prominent in our consciousness.

That said, I still like Demona's glimpse of 994 that Blaise mentioned in his post, and especially the fact that 1995-Demona doesn't say *which* humans were responsible for the massacre, but only humans - which would make it very easy to jump to the wrong conclusion and believe that it was the humans living in the castle that slaughtered the gargoyles. Dramatically, prophecies that are brought about by an attempt to prevent them are beautifully ironic. (The same thing turns up in "City of Stone" where Duncan fears that Macbeth will replace him as King of Scotland, attempts to kill him, and winds up dying himself as a result.)

I think that what bothered Goliath most about Demona was not so much that she'd helped take part in the Wyvern massacre a thousand years before, as that she still wanted to wipe out the entire human race - and that she was ready to kill him and his clan to stop them from interfering (remember that Demona was attacking Goliath with the laser cannon in "Awakening Part Five" even before she revealed to him that she'd agreed to the Captain's plan.) Goliath was no doubt conscious that Demona had not been intending to bring about the massacre when she agreed to betray Princess Katharine and her people to the Vikings, but even so, her actions would still have bothered him, since he and his clan were sworn to protect the humans living in Castle Wyvern, and Demona's act was breaking that vow.

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, April 3, 2004 06:50:50 PM
IP: 4.244.12.53

****A pool of water appears in the middle of the Room. A shark is clearly visible in said pool. Suddenly, there is the roar of a motorcycle, and Blaise tears into the Room. A jumping ramp appears at the edge of the pool, and Blaise guns the motor, heading right for it. He hits the ramp, and flies over the pool, just out of reach of the shark's jump, and lands safely on the other side.**** 'ey!
Just a few things to add to various conversations.

PUNCHINELLO> Demona had another reason for wanting the humans out of the castle--her glimpse of the future. She saw her clan destroyed and Goliath frozen in stone at night, and was told by her future self (whose very manner horrified her) that "the humans" were responsible. Without knowing exactly what group of "humans" and seeing the growing disdain and distrust of Katharine and her court, she probably grew worried about the future and strove to prevent the massacre.
Now, having said that, let me say that I disagree with your assessment of how the series "mistreated" Demona.
No one is questioning that Demona's outrage at the humans of Wyvern is justified--nor was her fear of them. What the series is trying to show is that the solution she followed was the wrong one--morally and pragmatically.
We know she didn't participate in the betrayal of Wyvern for some malignant end. Like I said, that was never doubted. However, one of the recurring themes in the show is that "the ends don't justify the means." And putting one's trust in the hands of one's enemies is a very stupid move no matter what you're planning. She even knew this--maybe not in the forefront of her mind, but she suspected something, else why did she even consider warning the others?
But she didn't warn the others, or even try to come up with a contingency plan, She continued to decieve her clan and her leader (and mate). Does this make her (or even the Captain for that matter) as bad as Hakon. No, of course not. But what they did was still wrong, and they should have borne their share of the responsibility.
I must also disagree with your assesment of Goliath's reaction to her and the Weird Sister's listing of her actions.
Goliath's condemnation of Demona (as you have termed it) largely stems out of her betrayal of his trust (and perhaps the gargoyle ideal of protection). However, even then, I don't think he's as severe as you think he is--Goliath gets more outraged at her actions in the present then he does with the Massacre. Heck, Demona is the one who keeps bringing up the Massacre--and accusing Goliath of being responsible for it (and you know that Goliath does feel a sense of guilt over it--"Shadows of the Past" plays off that guilt).
Nor do the Weird Sisters (or the clan, or the series) equate Demona's guilt with Hakon's--his motivation was greed (and maybe spite), and for that he committed cold-blooded murder. However, because she was a party to the betrayal (no matter her intentions) she should have accepted her fair share of the responsibility. But she didn't. She never accepts responsiblility for her actions. Even in the immediate aftermath of the massacre, she flees Goliath and tries to come up with a lie rather than face up to him and tell him the truth. Yes, she was distraught, and maybe that excuses her need for space and time, but not making up a lie to cover her own culpability.
And as for the other things the Sisters pointed out--Demona did create The Hunter (she scarred Gillcomegain, giving him a focus and a drive for his burning rage), and she is even more responsible for her second clan's destruction than her first's (she could have just deserted Macbeth, or taken the clan to follow Luach, but instead she joined THE HUNTER, putting her clan's lives in his hands, for the sake of hurting Macbeth).
It doesn't matter what Demona's intentions were at the start--"the path to Hell is paved with good intentions" I believe the saying goes. What matters is the result her actions ultimately had, and the fact that rather than accept her part in it, she continually shifts the blame--to humans, to Goliath, to anyone but her. She is, in her own mind, a blameless pariah and martyr.

AVALON WORLD TOUR> Yeah, I liked it. Largely for reasons already given. Of course, being a Brooklyn fan I did miss my fav character. But Tour's biggest problem was with reruns--a symptom of the work schedule, I believe. Maybe it would have worked better if AVALON was the last new episode for a month or so, and then the world tour began amid fanfare of "All New GARGOYLES" commercials. Heck, the amount of commentors at "Jump the Shark" who seem to think that TGC was the 4th season attest to some sort of perceived divide. Speaking of which....

JUMPING THE SHARK> I've seen that site before. And having read the comments (for GARGOYLES and other series), I've a sneaking suspiscion that some people belive a series has "jumped" when it has ONE episode they don't like.
As for GARGOYLES' numbers and comments--like many, I'm not surprised that most people think it "jumped" with TGC. I do disagree with a lot of the comments of those who accuse it of jumping with the World Tour. And I especially disagree with the one who didn't like Thailog (did they even watch the other episodes with him?).
"Xanatos repents"...well, I'll have to go with Greg on this one--if they're talking about how he was portrayed in the last 12 eps of TGC, I can't say I blame 'em.
Actually, there's not a whole lot I can say about these comments. Some really surprised me (like the one about Owen/Puck's revelation being "forced"), but other than surprise, agreement or disagreement, they really incite no emotion in me. Well, some annoy me, I guess.

See you guys later. Until then, farewell. ****Blaise turns his motorcycle to leave, but instead falls into the shark-infested pool. He leaps out, screaming, and bolts through the door, inexplicably followed by the shark, which seems to be hopping along on its tail.****

Blaise
Saturday, April 3, 2004 01:25:26 PM
IP: 209.178.190.98

ABOUT OUR CURRENT DISCUSSION...

http://www.jumptheshark.com/

Go to this site, scroll down untill you see "Shark Catagories" and click on A TO Z, then "G". Find Gargoyles, and read what they have to say about the show.

That is all I will say.

Battle Beast
CanadaSaturday, April 3, 2004 11:31:18 AM
IP: 142.179.227.73

GREG BISHANSKY - You wrote: [There's a new TMNT series that's currently doing it, last I heard.]

Is that series still on? I remember seeing a half an episode of it and that was about it. Honestly these days, if its not being shown on Cartoon Network then I hardly get a chance to check it out. (And even then most of what I see is on Adult Swim; I just don't have that much time to tune in other than in the evening/at night.)


TODD - You wrote: [oddly enough, one who nominated Thailog, though why anybody would consider Thailog a "jumping-the-shark" moment]

I can understand the logic behind it - rather than saying that Thailog shows up, look at it this way: the evil, murderous, money grubbing clone of the main character shows up. Usually the moment that happens it means that the writers ran out of ideas. In GARGOYLES however we got an interesting villain instead. (And underused too; I would really have loved to see Thailog become the prominent foe of the cast.)

You wrote: [I believe that it would have ultimately made things pointless if they were - if the gargoyle race is headed for immediate extinction, then why even bother making peace with humanity?]

The moment cloning (and to a lesser extent Mutation) was successfully introduced, the future for the clan became a bit less pessimistic. But even with other clans around, its not that optimistic - after all instead of 6 Gargoyles, there are now something like 400. Is that enough to keep an entire race going, particularly given that each couple can only have 3 kids 20 years apart from each other and that males tend to outnumber females?

As for the whole making peace with humanity issue, that was never prominent - what I mean is that while relations between the speicies was a plot that was always bubbling around in the series, it was always on an individual level. Goliath had no plans whatsoever of revealing the Clan to the world or to make a case to the Human race. That comes up only because the Hunters reveal the Clan to the world. Without the world tour (and thus without Angela) its more possible that Goliath would have had a more restrained response to the Hunters and thus the events that led the Clan to be revealed might not have happened. The Clan could have continued to live quietly and secretly.

You wrote: [I saw Thailog as more of an "evil son"]

I didn't mind so much having Goliath retain this idea for himself personally (During SANCTUARY, the fact that his "son" who he was actively trying to help sided with Demona may have been one of the things that made Goliath even more reluctant to open up to Angela.) I don't see the rest of the clan thinking about Thailog that way. I also think that defintely by the end of THE RECKONING, he might have abandoned thinking of Thailog in this manner; in fact having Angela as a child to focus his attention on might have helped this along.)

You wrote: [a few people think that the series jumped the shark in the Avalon World Tour was because of the fantasy elements in it.]

I don't think that it was so much the fantasy elements that could lead to such a feeling as much as it is how prominent they became particularly in the World Tour. Originally the fantasy elements you mentioned are more subdued in the series. The World Tour on the other hand can give the impression that the travellers were meeting a different magical being every other week. Pre-AVALON aside from Human magic (the spell the Magus cast, or the various spells Demona cast) we only ever have three magical artifacts show up and only one Fey. The Human magic doesn't feel so out of place and even the artifacts up to that point could be attributed to more Human magic. And even though Puck showed up, it was more isolated since no other magical beings show up. It fits in with the isolation the Gargoyles are part of. (Yes, I know the Weird Sisters show up too, but they go out of their way to remain mysterious and shadowy which plays again into the theme which the Gargoyles themselves were trying to preserve - staying shadowy and mysterious in a Human world.)

You wrote: [could Goliath have used that to have persuaded Demona to call off her war on humanity?]

He hasn't persuaded her to do so even now when they all know that there are other clans out there. (And even before Angela told her anything I think that she might have been aware of the London Clan at least.) Demona is independent and focused enough on her goal that with or without other Clans, I doubt Goliath would be able to convince her to call it off.

(Demona's been at it so long that the goal of helping Gargoyles has transformed into the focus of just getting the plan to work. And Goliath doesn't have a chance at all of stopping that. I'm not even sure that Angela has a much better chance, other than to slow Demona down enough that somewhere along the line someone else might help her change her goals. The fact is that when all is said and done, Goliath and Clan can never defeat Demona - her immortality makes her undefeatable. All they can do is delay her until she decides to do something else. The way Goliath has been going at it was so short term focused; all Demona has to do to defeat him is take a vacation for a generation or three and then nobody is going to remember her, let alone have the ability to stop her. I wonder if Brooklyn, after he gets done Timedancing might have become a bit more farsighted in strategy than he and Goliath are now.)


ED - You wrote: [The cast was decimated.]

The problem ultimately is that the 3rd season turned out the way it did. That season was supposed to balance everything out with a return and focus on Manhattan. Instead because we discount it (as it deserves to be discounted) we focus on how long the World Tour was and how short the return to Manhattan was. After all we only got 9 episodes set in Manhattan post-World Tour instead of those 9 plus 13 more which would have brought up up to 22. (Consider that the series was made up of 20 episodes prior to AVALON, so 20 post-AVALON would have been a great anchor for the series.)

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Saturday, April 3, 2004 11:18:00 AM
IP: 12.75.158.252

On the matter of Demona's motivation. I think Jensen is correct to state that her primary motivation had probably never been to save her people. That she wants revenge is transparent, but there is something in the way Jensen articulates her reasons that I think deserves elaboration. That she wants to revisit some of the misery her people have suffered upon the perpetrators. Revenge for all the massacres they carried out. I don't think I hear this point emphasized enough with reference to D. Whenever her "crusade" is talked about it always seems (to me at least) to pay concession to how she's "spiteful" and "vengeful" and otherwise a "terrible person" but never examines the quality of this anger. Jensen sums it up with the description "If we can no longer thrive in this world than at least neither will our murderers." I think that's probably a perfect representation of the character. At least from the perspective of what the author intended since we know that Greg was rather preoccupied with this theme of an eye for an eye making us all blind.

I have to say though, that there was always something in the way Greg (and his fans) treated the character of D that left me dissatisfied. The way her indentification as a villian seems to emerge from the way her plan to get the Gargoyles out of the castle backfiring on her is treated as equivalent to her actually having done the massacre herself always seemed like a hollow comparison to me. She was devious in that regard, even duplicitous, but never to what I could reasonably call a malignant end. What did she want besides a means to improve the quality of her peoples life? She made an effort to remove them from what was impinging upon that quality. Namely, Catherine's people. Yes, the whole plot came to a magnificently horrific ending, but I dont think anyone really supposes that this end was ever what she had in mind. I would never have assigned her the status of a pariah over this incident. Her (justified) moral outrage over the treatment of the trio, her convoluted plan to get rid of the source of her peoples troubles without directly doing them violence (at least initially) and her obvious frailty in fleeing the scene of what she must certainly have expected to be a massacre without warning the others for shame of her scheming all seem to me to be indicative of a sympathetic character. Yet I often felt that the show's narrative sort of expected me to treat her as something else. If it did, then it was certainly not because the assignment of "evil" naturally followed from her actions.

Instead I more often frowned at Goliath's condemnations of her and I positively cringed internally when the Wyrd sisters shared that expository moment where they outline how Demona is supposed to be the source of her own misery.

As if it logically followed that her "guilt" were qualitatively equivalent to Hakon's.

As though her clan had not been butchered.

Twice.

Apparently the fates are as inexperienced with reason as we mere mortals.

I never thought "She needed somebody to blame."

There was never a point in the story that I considered the crossed shark (whatever that means) but there was this issue. There was this problem for me which lingered in the background. It always seemed that hating D and the Captain of the Gaurd were compulsory, like it was understood that they were the opposite of sympathetic characters.

I'd be curious to know what people think of this.

Punchinello
Saturday, April 3, 2004 08:52:56 AM
IP: 217.220.252.133

Could "Gargoyles" have remained hopeful even if Goliath and Co. really were the last of their kind? It is possible that it could have, by focusing not on the future for their species but on the fact that the re-awakened gargoyles were now protecting the city, foiling criminals from the three street thugs to Tony Dracon all the way up to Demona - having the hope consist more of, to quote Elisa, "The city feels safer already." (Although, if the gargoyles are an irrevocably dying race, the level of hope there isn't going to be so great; once they die and have no new gargoyles to take their place, the criminals will be able to start getting the upper hand again.)

But the big problem with going that route is the whole "feared and hated by humanity" element. If the gargoyles really have no future, then it makes the whole issue of making peace with the humans pointless; the most that they can hope for is living out their final years in peace, unmolested by panicky mobs (and since the people most inclined to go out and kill gargoyles are those who are criminally inclined, who'd be after the clan anyway for being crime-fighters, I doubt that convincing the general public that they're not evil monsters will raise the gargs' life expectancy that much anyway). Which would argue that if the gargoyles are going to be the very last of their kind, the "humans fear what they do not understand" aspect would have to be removed or played down - which has the big disadvantage that once that element's out, Demona loses much of her impact; without the "human persecution" factor, she moves closer to being just another "take-over-the-world" villain.

Perhaps one of the crucial things to remember about the Avalon World Tour is that a lot of the things that were in it were intended to lead into future plans of Greg's that never got carried out because he left the series after "The Journey". If Greg had gotten to do the full third season, many of the events in the Avalon World Tour would probably have appeared more significant than they presently do. (This might suggest that maybe the big mistake that Greg made was assuming that the series would go on for a lot longer than it actually did.)

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, April 3, 2004 07:54:07 AM
IP: 4.244.12.31

years ago, when the series was unfolding on tv, my friends and i began to get tired of and hate the World Tour episodes. besides the ones where new clans were discovered, we just waited and waited and waited for an episode about what was going on back home or for Goliath and Co to get home. i distinctly remember the first time Future Tense aired and afterwords i called up a friend of mine and said that i predict they will get home in the next episode, turns out i was right.
of course, back then i was just impatient. i wanted the travelers to get home so the Trio could begin courting Angela (we all knew they would) and i really wanted to see Hudson and the trio react to the news of Clans around the world, particularly the Avalon Clan. today i can see how the World Tour made the series so great and am very glad it happened. but at first, i hated it and can easily understand why other viewers believe the show "jumped the shark" with it. Phil had some great reasons, so i won't ramble further.

matt
Saturday, April 3, 2004 03:02:16 AM
IP: 207.230.48.44

Jumping the Shark: I can just picture Brooklyn with the motorcycle from 'Temptation' in that sort of situation.

World Tour: I liked the World Tour in general. It expanded the show's horizons and gave it some fresh change/vitality/shook things up. There were some episodes that I felt kinda sucked, and then there were some that were great.
I would have liked to see more episodes like "Kingdom" and "Pendragon" with the crew back home dealing with Goliath & Elisa's disappearance. Couple of the tour eps lacked the sense of "connection" with the wider series and I feel could have been cut.

Thailog: Well he is an evil twin, he's not a cliched evil twin, which is why he's interesting.

CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Saturday, April 3, 2004 02:02:50 AM
IP: 132.170.40.139

Count me among those who enjoyed the world tour. From a practical point of view, it was a necessity to change the tone of the series from being pessimistic (only hope for gargoyles suriving is through cloning) to an optimistic (there's more than just Goliath's clan out there) potential future for the gargoyle race.

I really enjoyed expanding the gargoyles universe. I also understand from a cost point of view, it can be quite expensive (new background scenes for every episode).

That's why I would probably be against doing Timedancer in the computer generated 3d animation. Costs of doing it in 3d animation vs traditional animation might put a damper on the number of episodes.

Can anyone give a break-down of cost of doing one episode in tradiation animation vs doing the same episode in 3d animation?

DPH
AR, USA
Saturday, April 3, 2004 01:53:10 AM
IP: 67.14.195.43

The World Tour> I was positively tickeled when I saw the eggs alive and well. I rather liked the Idea of Gargoyles alive in other parts of the world. It's cool.

If there were no others, the plot of the story couldn't be advanced (like someone else already pointed out). The Gargoyles would just die off, and that be that. But now they have a chance.

*************

And, I have to reply to this...

You know, I posted that like to my painting for a reason... I thought I could get some help... well some one evidently thinks that this is the wrong place to post something like that. Well, If someone knows a better place, please tell me.

Thanks.

That is all I will say.

Battle Beast
CanadaFriday, April 2, 2004 07:08:36 PM
IP: 142.179.227.73

One thing that I found myself wondering today was this: if Goliath, his clan, and Demona had indeed been the only gargoyles left alive, and there were no gargoyles anywhere else (including Avalon), could Goliath have used that to have persuaded Demona to call off her war on humanity? After all, with only seven gargoyles left and only one of them a female (especially in light of the fact that gargoyles give birth only once every twenty years, and then to only one egg at a time), the species would be doomed to extinction anyway, regardless of whether the humans were out to destroy gargoyles or not, so wiping out humanity wouldn't save the gargoyles. And that, in turn, would remove the only practical reason for destroying the human race. Could Goliath have used that to turn Demona aside from her course?

My own suspicion is that it wouldn't. Because Demona was not motivated entirely by a desire to save her species; indeed, I don't think that it was even her primary motivation. Her main reason for wanting to wipe out humanity was revenge for all of the past massacres that it had carried out on gargoyles (plus the fact that she needed somebody to blame for the troubles that she herself had helped bring about, to avoid facing the fact that she was responsible for them). I think that Demona, even if she was aware that it was too late to save her race, would go ahead anyway, on the grounds that it would at least ensure that the humans would not be able to enjoy their "genocidal victory", an attitude of "If we can no longer thrive in this world, at least neither will our murderers."

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Friday, April 2, 2004 06:45:29 PM
IP: 4.244.12.153

I liked the idea of the World Tour and I thought it had a lot of great episodes. In fact, the later world tour episodes were my first, and the ones that hooked me. It certainly wasn't a "jump the shark" point since Season Two bowed out with some wonderful episodes. But I think there were a number of concerns with it:

1. The cast was decimated. Anyone who watched chiefly for Brooklyn, Hudson, Broadway, Lexington, Matt, Xanatos, Owen, Fox or Demona had to make do with only a couple of episodes in the run compared to twenty or so for the travellers. Until that point, 'Gargoyles' had felt increasingly like an ensemble show. We saw lots of different characters interact in lots of different situations. In the World Tour, 'Gargoyles' felt like an ensemble show with an ensemble of three (four including Bronx).

2. Small casts can be great, but the cast that remained in the tour almost didn't feel diverse enough (despite their vastly different backgrounds) to really hook the audience. There wasn't the banter of the Trio, or the scheming of Xanatos to shake things up. 'Kingdom' fascinates me because you get to see new sides of old characters, especially in the way Hudson tries to guide Brooklyn without Brooklyn being aware of it. The characters on the tour weren't especially humorous or sneaky or abrasive. They didn't learn all that much from each other (Diane is the one that ultimately calls Goliath on the way he relates to Angela) and generally were all of roughly the same kind of mindset. Of course, several episodes, such as 'Sanctuary' and 'Mark of the Panther', shook things up. But basically the characters were much the same in 'Avalon' Part Three as they were in 'The Gathering' Part One. I think Brooklyn was probably the character who changed the most in this period, even though he had a fraction of the screen time. The characters simply felt less dynamic.

3. Part of this is because the show also removed a large part of what defined them. Goliath and Elisa swore to protect Manhattan, but now they felt like more traditional heroes. They no longer had any specific responsibilities from episode to episode. The introduction of other clans also lessened the sense of pathos in the series, and by placing the characters in fresh locations it almost seemed like the tone of the series had shifted suddenly. A main reason for the characters not seeming as dynamic is because they simply weren't. They were dumped in a location an episode against their wishes and had to work out a solution. The drive for the episodes didn't come from within so often, but from without.

4. As a result, the show began to feel a little formulaic. The tour episodes that shook things up most structurally were 'Ill Met By Moonlight' and 'Future Tense', which showed adventures not related to the mission of the week. But those were placed together, and last. There were no multi-parters on the tour, so you could start to count on the fact that the heroes would arrive at a new location by a couple of minutes in and leave it by a couple of minutes before the end. If there were consequences to the stories, they weren't likely to be dealt with any time soon because the characters would move on. Moreover, a number of the stories feel quite similar. Three episodes deal with young men in their twenties coming to terms with their destinies as heroes. Several more have similar journeys for characters like Dingo and Peter Maza. Diane and Beth both come to appreciate the gargoyles more. Rather than delving deeper into familiar characters, the episodes tended to focus on showing new characters that seemed even more strange and alien than the gargoyles. But because people came to expect these kinds of surprises, they stopped being as surprising.

Now, I still enjoyed the tour a lot. I think the series was better and more interesting for it and most of the episodes were excellent. But I don't think it was generally as compelling as the episodes based in Manhattan.

Ed
London, England
Friday, April 2, 2004 10:38:32 AM
IP: 213.187.39.103

I certainly don't see Thailog as a "jump-the-shark" element either - and didn't see him as a mere "evil twin" to Goliath. (After the opening bit in "Double Jeopardy" when they momentarily mistake him for Goliath, the concept is abandoned, and Thailog even makes himself distinctly different in appearance from Goliath by wearing a suit of armor.) I saw Thailog as more of an "evil son" (a la Edmund in "King Lear" or Mordred in the Arthurian legend) - just as the cast did.

Not that one should forget the physical similarity, but I think that that's part of Thailog's creepiness - the fact that you've got a guy who looks like Goliath and has the same voice, but who is, in terms of characterization, almost the direct opposite of Goliath in terms of morality. It's the incongruity that makes him so unsettling.

(He definitely had a bit impact on Xanatos, too; note that the Thailog Project was the last time in the series that Xanatos tried making his own gargoyles.)

One other comment that I thought I'd bring up: Greg Weisman mused last night that one of the reasons why a few people think that the series jumped the shark in the Avalon World Tour was because of the fantasy elements in it. The thing that occurs to me about that is that the core concept behind the protagonists was a fantasy concept - living gargoyles in medieval Scotland, trapped in stone sleep by a wizard's curse for a thousand years. I'd have been more bothered if, when they awakened, almost all of their adventures had been straightforward crime-fighting ones; they'd be far more appropriate for a relatively mundane super-hero of the Batman variety. To me, the fantasy element of the series was necessary to fit in with the nature of the gargoyles; now, if they'd been ordinary humans born in the modern world and wearing gargoyle-shaped armor to strike terror into the hearts of cowardly, superstitious criminals, on the other hand, then it'd have been a different story.

I'm looking forward to Greg Weisman's further rambles on the subject tonight.

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Friday, April 2, 2004 07:28:25 AM
IP: 4.245.17.153

Yes, I agree that the show did indeed "jump the shark" (whatever that means) beginning with the second episode of The Goliath Chronicles. But I've yet to understand what people don't like about the World Tour, or about Xanatos and Fox having a baby, or about Xanatos having a change of heart. What's wrong with a show evolving? Few shows have dared to take the risks Gargoyles did. Most shows just stick to their original premise and never change. But Gargoyles did evolve, and that's one of the reasons I love the show.

One person voted for Thailog, and said that a show's in trouble when they resort to the "evil twin" idea. Oh, come ON. What evil twin idea? Most "evil twin" plots have the twin try to take over the brother's place. Did Gargoyles do that? Nooo. Thailog, from the very start, showed us that he was his own gargoyle, his own person, and never tried to take over Goliath's place, or Xanatos', or Sevarius'. Just because he LOOKS like Goliath, doesn't mean he IS Goliath, or trying to BE Goliath; he just happens to look like him. And I'm not just saying that because I like Thailog.

Plus, he was only in three episodes (excluding TGC). If the show had indeed been in trouble, and if they'd indeed resorted to the "evil twin" idea to save it, then he'd have been in every other episode, or heck, even all of them. That's what I think anyway.

GNC: THAT was low. :P I've heard many April Fool's jokes about a Gargoyles revival (the one of Gargoyles being taken over by Saban comes to mind), but that one topped them all. And posting it on a news site? Though fiendishly clever, it was still so very low. It's a terrible thing to do to play with the fandom's only hope and then crush it. But maybe I'm just biased when it comes to April Fool's Day because we don't celebrate it here. :P

Demona Taina
Friday, April 2, 2004 04:19:17 AM
IP: 172.128.9.179

In response to the whole "Jumping the Shark," thing, I have no idea where people are getting the idea that Avalon and the World Tour caused the show to jump the shark. The World Tour was great! I loved seeing the new clans and seeing storylines come together! Knowing there's hope for the gargoyle race added to the show's depth. The true culprit(s) for the show's jumping the shark--the Goliath Chronicles.
Emperor Auladarr I - [tor001@earthlink.net]
Anaheim, CA, USA
Friday, April 2, 2004 02:14:56 AM
IP: 67.101.232.63

GARG CENTRAL> I nver fell for the trick, but it was REALLY low... :P to all who fell for it.

I guess I should re-post this here as I am getting no luck in finding a name...


***ALERT ALERT ALERT ALERT ALERT ALERT***

I have a painting that needs a name, but for the life of me, I can't think of one. So, I have a small contest going on. I need a name for my painting.

SIMPLY go to
www.geocities.com/oscarmovs/pic.html
to view the painting, and clicky the link below to name it. SIMPLE?

I will narrow it down to a top three (if I can get a top three), and then choose.

Thanks everyone and GOODLUCK!!

That is all I will say.

Battle Beast
CanadaFriday, April 2, 2004 12:32:56 AM
IP: 142.179.227.73

RAC - Greg Weisman posted the URL in his ramble at "Ask Greg".
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, April 1, 2004 09:51:06 PM
IP: 171.75.194.32

David Kelley has decided to forgo the dramatic Practice follow-up series, in exchange for several characters appearing on a planned Gargoyles relaunch scheduled to premiere on ABC as early as November. It is unconfirmed whether or not Xanatos' new lawyer Alan Shore will learn of the Gargoyles.


Boba Fett
Thursday, April 1, 2004 09:44:36 PM
IP: 152.163.252.100

Don't worry about the April Fool's joke Todd, the people at Gargoyles Central already had a mean one(low Siryn?, really low...).

But what the heck is this jump the shark page? Really confused about it and don't know where it is...

And how many people have been keeping up with Gargoyles on Jetix? Nice seeing the episodes again, can't believe Deadly Force actually aired. Yeah they cut the scene out with Elisa in a pool of blood but still had blood on Broadway's hands and on Elisa when she was deposited on the stretcher. Don't care for edits but it could've been chopped much worse than that...

I still don't know what's with some of the cut sound effects, where some of the roars are either muted a bit or cut(noticable with one Brooklyn roar in Temptation when he';s going after Demona). But so long as they don't make any major edits, I won't complain too much.

But everything better be unedited in the DVD.

Rac
Troy, NY, USA
Thursday, April 1, 2004 09:30:43 PM
IP: 24.194.43.107

Happy April Fool's Day, everyone! I tried to think of a hoax for today (such as a "forwarded message" from Gorebash announcing that he was shutting down Station 8 because he didn't consider it challenging any more, or from Disney announcing that they were bringing "Gargoyles" back, but with some alarming changes such as having the gargoyles now regressed permanently to hatchlings and their stories now focusing on "sharing and caring" rather than fighting crime and protecting the city), but nothing seemed quite right. Sorry about that.

On to other matters. Greg Weisman just posted a ramble about his visit to the "Jump the Shark" page on "Gargoyles", and his thoughts on where people thought that the show jumped the shark - most of them voted for the Goliath Chronicles (not surprisingly) - but there were a couple who nominated the Avalon World Tour instead (and oddly enough, one who nominated Thailog, though why anybody would consider Thailog a "jumping-the-shark" moment). He plans to ramble a bit more about it tomorrow.

Greg does briefly muse about the fact that somebody evidently considered the revelation of other clans out there a "Jump-the-Shark" moment, which gets into the question over whether the series would have been better if Goliath, his clan, and Demona were indeed the only gargoyles left anywhere. I believe that it would have ultimately made things pointless if they were - if the gargoyle race is headed for immediate extinction, then why even bother making peace with humanity? ("Superman" can work with Superman as the last Kryptonian, since Krypton's just a plot device to explain how Superman can fly and have x-ray vision, but the gargoyles' "gargoyleness" was a crucial part of their characterization from the start, rather than just a convenient plot device for helping them fight crime.)

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, April 1, 2004 07:13:04 PM
IP: 171.75.194.32

Quick question:

If we had custom pins made for the Gathering (not buttons, actual metal cast pins with the pinch clip at the back), would you buy one?

You can let us know here, or by email! Thanks!

Kanthara - [info@gatheringofthegargoyles.com]
Thursday, April 1, 2004 03:48:11 PM
IP: 66.131.214.176

Darn you people who get to watch the show on ABC Family... but only because I don't get to. Woe is me. And boy has it been forever since I took a look in here. *L* ;)
Shinga - [gothic_fairy_01@hotmail.com]
Thursday, April 1, 2004 03:28:10 PM
IP: 67.202.40.161

Hey Gang, I need some help. There's this thing going on in August, you may have heard Patrick mention it, The Gathering? Yeah, fans get together for a weekend of bonding and merriment and hanging out with Greg Weisman, Thom Adcox and others who worked on Gargoyles. Well, here's the thing, I need some Volunteers. Folks that will help out by acting as Hosts and Hostesses for various venues like the Art Show, Video Room, ConSuite, who if they can keep cool and speak French, work a couple of hours at the Registration Desk, you know, stuff like that. I also need a couple of people for Very Special Assignments: Deputy Art Show Director and Auction Coordinator.

If you've got at least two hours (or more) you'd be willing to donate to the Gathering would you drop me a line?

volunteer AT gatheringofthegargoyles.com or if you have as hard a time typing that as I do, then kapogge AT yahoo.com .

Thanks!

kathy
Thursday, April 1, 2004 08:19:56 AM
IP: 66.82.197.68

Re: Deadly Force -- It was edited, but not so much as usual. They cut the reveal of Elisa on the ground, and then replaced the shot of the pool of blood with a face closeup. It lost some of the "holy crap" visual punch, but it was still obvious what happened, so I'm not complaining. (But I am editing the shots back into my own tapes ;)

Surprisingly, they left the blood on Broadway's hands. I'm pretty sure that Toon Disney scrubs his hands clean on the rare occasions that they air this episode.
Edge
Wednesday, March 31, 2004 09:37:51 PM
IP: 68.77.117.207

I saw Deadly Force, and really enjoyed it. I was wondering if anyhtig had been edited, as I recalled people mentioning Elisa lying in her own blood...but personally, I do not think the story suffered for the editing. I thought Goliath, and the normally friendly faced Broadway were very well portrayed as far as their expressions...for the first time Broadway was looking none to friendly while at the warehouse confronting the people with the guns...not that good with everyone's names. I liked the story a lot...finding the first season on average to be one of my favorites.
Sahyinepu
Houston, Texas
Wednesday, March 31, 2004 06:06:07 PM
IP: 67.107.64.28

Deadeye: Please stop posting links to adult sites in this forum, they are not at all appropriate.
Lynati
Wednesday, March 31, 2004 01:37:50 PM
IP: 64.219.130.157

good news if you don't know gargoyles are on the new jetix
block abc family

james nelson - [none]
victory, ny
Wednesday, March 31, 2004 11:49:15 AM
IP: 24.195.101.215

Hey you know..it's my occupation..just..don't give me scuff about it ..please.....it's what keeps me eatting...
Deadeye - [Amelia_Sucide@yahoo.com]
Temple , Texas , USA
Wednesday, March 31, 2004 09:38:28 AM
IP: 24.26.206.141

Deadeye:> *clicks link*

O.o *clears throat* O.o

Leo
Wednesday, March 31, 2004 09:16:22 AM
IP: 68.231.241.236

I'm sorry to post or interupt..but..it's still here....I can not belive it...I was in junior high ...7 years ago ..and like I remember this place..and now I'm 20 and wow....nice to see you all
Deadeye - [Amelia_suicide@yahoo.com]
Temple, Tx, USA
Wednesday, March 31, 2004 06:18:03 AM
IP: 24.26.206.141

According to on-air promos, "Bionicle: Mask of Light" will make its television debut on Cartoon Network's relaunched Toonami block April 17th at 7:30 PM. Greg Weisman was one of the writers of the movie.
William C. Maune - [Meteo@ToonZone.net]
Columbia, MO, United States
Wednesday, March 31, 2004 02:12:51 AM
IP: 12.216.236.208

Vertigo: I would have, but I don't get ABC family in Orlando.

Mab & Oberon: I think it's ideological: In the mythology, the Seelie go from benevolent to nuetral on humanity while the Unseelie go from nuetral to malevolent.
I imagine the that figure's in somehow.

CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Tuesday, March 30, 2004 11:20:38 PM
IP: 132.170.40.139

Now that things are actually working again.... ;)

How many here actually watched "Deadly Force" on Saturday? (btw, they're airing Gargoyles on Sunday at the same timeslot as well) I did notice that they edited it slightly. The clip with Elisa laying in the pool of blood got cut obviously, but that was all I noticed. They even left the faces of Goliath and Broadway alone. (ie: in their menacing glare state)

Vertigo1
TN, USA
Tuesday, March 30, 2004 09:00:24 PM
IP: 207.65.59.155

Yea, Todd, I agree with Xanatos learning that lesson. That simply means adding layers of denialibity and not taking too much of a hands-on approach to certain activities.

Question - <The conflict however seems to be intergenerational between Oberon and Mab and her followers who I guess who are probably the Titans and the Frost Giants.> That's pretty much what I think except I'm going to add a bit to say that I *think* the Wierd Sisters might have a hand in getting Queen Mab freed either directly or indirectly. I'll leave further speculation out of this cr.

DPH
AR, USA
Tuesday, March 30, 2004 07:43:12 PM
IP: 67.14.195.22

I'm one person who never paid that much attention to the animation in "Enter Macbeth" - I was too intrigued with the introduction of Macbeth and especially wondering about whether he had anything to do with *the* Macbeth to pay much attention to that.

I do think that it's a great story. Macbeth gets an intriguing entrance, particularly when we discover that he's connected to Demona and even named her. The gargoyles have to move out of the castle into the clock tower (as Greg once commented, it's like Batman being forced out of the Batcave for almost 60 episodes). And Xanatos gets a particularly amusing line when he describes his stay in prison to Owen as "a learning experience" - as Blaise once said, presumably what he learned was to make certain not to get caught the next time he was doing something sneaky!

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, March 30, 2004 07:04:46 PM
IP: 171.75.194.70

It's like.... bad anime. Or maybe Nickolodeon animation.

Either way, it's the story that counts, right?
(I am right, right?)

CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Tuesday, March 30, 2004 02:12:41 PM
IP: 132.170.40.139

Message for Lion,

Important must talk danger
Alley Cat
Tuesday, March 30, 2004 01:35:18 PM
IP: 152.163.252.196

Was that from Saturday? I didn't get to see the entire episode.

I...can't find the words to describe that second picture.

Dernhelm - [springsprite@email.com]
okla. city
Tuesday, March 30, 2004 12:28:13 PM
IP: 68.12.196.86

LOL!

great links Edge, the one where Lex is talking to Brooklyn is esspecially hilarious! i was cracking up!

matt
Tuesday, March 30, 2004 11:57:46 AM
IP: 207.230.48.69

Recorded a better copy of "Enter Macbeth" off of ABC Family last weekend, and for the first time, I noticed just how bad the original animation must have been. Ask Greg has a few jabs at StarToons (the US faciltiy that animated this episode) and Greg says that the original footage was a disaster. Well, some proof of that remains :) Cut-and-paste the links for a few good laughs.

http://www.element80.net/garg/badgarg1.jpg
http://www.element80.net/garg/badgarg2.jpg
http://www.element80.net/garg/badgarg3.jpg
http://www.element80.net/garg/badgarg4.jpg

Edge
Tuesday, March 30, 2004 09:07:45 AM
IP: 68.77.117.166

i just kept having a futile hope that maybe a new Ask Greg system was being installed, thus the inability to access the site... but i'm not surprised that all is as it was... oh well...
matt
Tuesday, March 30, 2004 03:01:56 AM
IP: 207.230.48.13

<ahh, everything seems to be intact. good.

...aren't Oberon's court the gargie version of the Sidhe, the "light" elves, and wouldn't the opposing Unseelie court be the "dark" ones? >

There doesn't seem to be an unseelie court. Seems like the Oberon's Court includes everything from the good guys like Odin to the Lady of the Lake to the bad ones like Raven. The conflict however seems to be intergenerational between Oberon and Mab and her followers who I guess who are probably the Titans and the Frost Giants.

Question
Tuesday, March 30, 2004 01:07:06 AM
IP: 128.104.217.179

*cruises the AG archives*

ahh, everything seems to be intact. good.

...aren't Oberon's court the gargie version of the Sidhe, the "light" elves, and wouldn't the opposing Unseelie court be the "dark" ones?


Lynati
Monday, March 29, 2004 11:45:01 PM
IP: 68.94.113.3

Spoke too soon. should have kept my keyboard silent.
Wingless
Monday, March 29, 2004 10:44:47 PM
IP: 24.157.218.68

From Hudson via Kythera:(March 28, 2003)

The server known as 'spazz' run by thelonewolf and co, croaked--which hosts s8 and a number of other sites for 'free.' Yeah, well, free comes at a cost when your admin NEVER CHECKS THE DAMN DISKS! :P

It was, technically, related to the move. but only by technicality. To put it in blunt terms, a reboot killed it.
Completely. Hardrive is fuxored: Incremental sector errors starting just beyond the boot sector and running up the list from there, from a glance, I'd call it your typical case of head/platter alingment drift and drive mechanics breaking down, All at once.

It was known by the admins of that box that we would be shutting it down, so..they had plenty of time to try a good old-fashioned read-only FSCK scan, and then time to make backups while the disk was operational, but we don't know if they did make backups or not.

It was running fine while the platters were spinning, which is common for this type of failure. And thats the funny part - the disks technicly died some long time ago, but while it was still juiced up and 'spinning', it was okay. Once it stopped spinning... no more love! Buhbye, thanks for playing. Go go gadget mechanical wear.

*head scratrches* what really boggles me, is that these type of failures spit all sorts of nasty, spammy, HUGE hard to miss errors all over the system log files, usualy file reads and writes fail, disk timeouts, sector misalingments, etc. all little warnings signs that scream 'this disk is DEAD/going to DIE/having BIG problems!', and nobody saw it. Or if they DID, didn't mention anything to us before the move to the new building.

Leo
Monday, March 29, 2004 10:19:45 PM
IP: 68.231.241.236

Surprised no one in the know posted an explanation in here. Simply, being told by someone who was in on it, some work was being done to move the server saturday night, and supposidly the one that held S8-something blew that caused an unexpected delay in getting it back up. Hudson might be able to give you more details-but for now, hope that helps.

Fades out into the shadows-where he usually lurks, away from the masses.

Wingless
Monday, March 29, 2004 10:00:21 PM
IP: 24.157.218.68

I don't know. I was trying yo post something, and the next thing I know, BAM! Won't load. Weird.

So here I am, posting it now.

***ALERT ALERT ALERT ALERT ALERT ALERT***

I NEED YOUR HELP!!!!

Did THAT get your attention?

I have a painting that needs a name, but for the life of me, I can't think of one. So, I have a small contest going on. I need a name for my painting.

SIMPLY go to www.geocities.com/oscarmovs/pic.html to view the painting, and clicky the link below to name it. SIMPLE?

I will narrow it down to a top three, and then choose.

Thanks everyone and GOODLUCK!!

That is all I will say.

Battle Beast
CanadaMonday, March 29, 2004 09:39:10 PM
IP: 142.179.227.73

So, does anybody know just what happened to Station 8 for the last two days?
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Monday, March 29, 2004 09:21:45 PM
IP: 171.75.194.8

Ok, that last post had a few weird things about it. The most noticible one is that the system didn't protect the string & #58; (delete the space btn. the & and the #) that I typed in. Thus, when my web browser renders the page, it puts a nice colon instead of the code, rendering that sentence absurd.

This post also has a *different* relative URL in it, BTW.

JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Saturday, March 27, 2004 01:20:11 PM
IP: 65.244.170.163

Bud-Clare>> That's what I ascertained from my experiment, but thank you. And there is no "o" in "Gregarius." It is the Latin word, not the English one. ;-)
Now, let's look at the HTML tag generated from the "Web Site" field.

<A HREF="http://www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com/" TARGET="_top">

The string (in quotes) after the HREF= is simply the entry into the Web Site field, with the necessary HTML substitutions (for example, the : for the colon).
Apparently, you are allowed to put a *relative* URL pointing to another file on this website in the "Web Site" field. Why anyone would do this on this site instead of using an absolute URL baffles me, though. I put ../ in the Web Site field in this post. Let's see where that leads us....

However, what is really interesting about the HTML tag that was generated above is the TARGET="_top" parameter. Anyone have a clue?

JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Saturday, March 27, 2004 01:08:27 PM
IP: 65.244.170.163

JJ Gregarious> You need http:// at the beginning.
Bud-Clare
Saturday, March 27, 2004 02:45:34 AM
IP: 66.67.201.63

It doesn't work. :-(
JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Friday, March 26, 2004 04:43:32 PM
IP: 65.244.170.163

Dernhelm >> It works.
Let me see if typing www.councilofelrond.com into the Web Site field works as well....
Try clicking on my name!

I really am...

JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Friday, March 26, 2004 04:42:31 PM
IP: 65.244.170.163

Nickerous: I'm using Windows Movie Maker cause it's free. Course, it's windows, so it crashes alot.

My kazaa connection has spontaneously reactiviated, so I might not need it now. But if it dies again, I'm looking for the scene where the humans first turn to stone.

CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Friday, March 26, 2004 02:10:09 PM
IP: 132.170.40.139

PATRICK - <<Anyone out there who can read all of Tolkein in just one day... more power to you.>>

Does that Include reading all three of the Rings books and the Hobbit together? If so <raises hand> I've done that.


Maintain and Check Six!

Stephen R. Sobotka Jr. - [ssobotka33616_AT_yahoo.com]
Tampa, FL
Friday, March 26, 2004 10:28:23 AM
IP: 24.164.32.253

Anyone out there who can read all of Tolkein in just one day... more power to you.

133 days left until The Gathering 2004 in Montreal, Quebec!

Patrick - [<-- allez au le Gathering en Canada, eh!]
Friday, March 26, 2004 06:52:03 AM
IP: 65.43.167.178

I just put on http on the beginning of the address. I don't know if that will make it work..

I just use this screenname when I post here. Most of the time I'm Fimbrethil (but not on councilofelrond.com, the url, if it still doesn't work.) I posted once, and I chose this name because I had been playing Age of Empires with a friend, and that was my handle.

Dernhelm
okc
Friday, March 26, 2004 03:15:01 AM
IP: 68.12.196.86

*sigh*, No, *she*'s (he?) Dernhelm, computer. *I* am JJ Gregarius
Dernhelm >> Wow! Is that you regular screenname?

Also, your URL is slightly messed up. Somehow it has a www.s8.org prefix tacked on...strange.

JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Friday, March 26, 2004 02:20:48 AM
IP: 65.244.170.163

Dernhelm,
Wow! Is that you regular screenname?

Also, your URL is slightly messed up. Somehow it has a www.s8.org prefix tacked on...strange.

Dernhelm
Orlando, FL
Friday, March 26, 2004 02:19:11 AM
IP: 65.244.170.163

Tolkien reading day? I forgot about that, even though the news has been on my home page for days. And all I did was post a message about the Lotr references in Mst3000. :/

Airwalker-- You wrote "In DARK AGES we are not dealing with present versions of the characters and moving forward with them. Instead we are looking at past versions of the characters that are going to develop into characters we already know in the present."

I think it would be more like finding out more about who the characters were, so we can understand who they are. I mean we had to see what happened to Demona in the past (City of Stone) to understand her in the present.

Dernhelm
Okla. city
Friday, March 26, 2004 02:09:10 AM
IP: 68.12.196.86

Finished!!! Well...almost.

I've completed my two Goliath Chronicle dvds and have, basically, finished the series. I took a short cut on that last chronicle dvd, but I probably won't care in the long run. The only thing left is to finish the extra features disc (and the episode, Possession, which will be on there too). All in all, I am very pleased with the quality of the set.

Nickerous - [nickerous@yahoo.com]
Thursday, March 25, 2004 07:37:21 PM
IP: 66.220.76.64

ED> Yes, it was you. I saw you'ew post and went to check out "Ask Greg."

That is all I will say.

Battle Beast
CanadaThursday, March 25, 2004 02:57:27 PM
IP: 137.186.134.59

CKayote> which scenes? I have those episodes but, with my dialup connection, it would be hard to send the entire episode.

What programs are you using for your video? My entry is on hiatus right now. Just got too much going on to work on it. Plus, my big computer has one mean virus on it. I think I'm going to have to reformat the HD to get rid of it. :(

Nickerous - [nickerous@yahoo.com]
Thursday, March 25, 2004 12:51:24 PM
IP: 66.220.76.27

Today, March 25, is an unofficial "Tolkien Day" (thanks to the fact that the One Ring was destroyed on March 25 in "The Lord of the Rings"). It's a good day to get re-acquainted with the original story that those Peter Jackson movies were based on.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, March 25, 2004 10:18:49 AM
IP: 198.209.226.130

134 days left until The Gathering 2004 in Montreal, Quebec!

Re: Colleges jamming Kazaa... Arr! 'Tis a hard life these days ta be a pirate! :P

Patrick
Thursday, March 25, 2004 07:01:34 AM
IP: 65.43.167.178

<I'm trying to get a scene from one of those episodes to edit in for the Gathering video contest, and my university network's jamming kazaa, so I'm kinda stuck. >

Isn't this illegal? I mean downloading cartoon episodes and such.

Question
Thursday, March 25, 2004 02:15:42 AM
IP: 144.92.164.199

PJ:

There should be a dvd on the first season in the fall/winter. Depending on how many copies are sold will determine if more dvds of gargoyles get made.

Rac
Thursday, March 25, 2004 12:56:16 AM
IP: 24.194.34.168

Does anybody have a copy of City of Stone 1 and/or 2 on their computer that I could acquire somehow?

I'm trying to get a scene from one of those episodes to edit in for the Gathering video contest, and my university network's jamming kazaa, so I'm kinda stuck.

If anybody can help, I'll download whatever program you need to make it work.\

CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Wednesday, March 24, 2004 11:46:16 PM
IP: 132.170.40.139

Any news on when we'll see a Gargoyles season DVD?
PJ - [orion124@aol.com]
Wednesday, March 24, 2004 11:31:07 PM
IP: 205.188.116.149

Hi I was wondering is anyone here interested in new idea for Animated show?,
Vanguard - [conklin@shaw.ca]
Victoria, BC, Canada
Wednesday, March 24, 2004 08:26:25 PM
IP: 24.64.223.203

So why is it thanks to me? Or is this a different Ed? Not that I mind being thanked. I'm just curious. (But if it turns out to be a different 'Ed', I'm going to be very disappointed. j/k ;))
Ed
Wednesday, March 24, 2004 07:24:24 PM
IP: 213.187.38.242

DPH> If you read my WHOLE post, you'll see that I am asking a whole other question. I know it was you whose question was answered.

I'd still like my question bandied about.

That is all I will say.

Battle Beast
CanadaWednesday, March 24, 2004 05:17:48 PM
IP: 137.186.134.59

135 days left until The Gathering 2004 in Montreal, Quebec!
Patrick
Wednesday, March 24, 2004 06:55:29 AM
IP: 65.43.167.178

DPH> i think that somewhere in the queue i have asked Greg that very question. i tend to ask him a lot of questions about the Mayan Clan, and i think at some point i asked him if Jade and Turquesa made it back before the eggs hatched. its either in the queue or in the archives... or i'm delusionally and it doesn't exist, lol.

off to work now, cuz thats all i do now... 50 hours a week split between UPS and the St Louis Zoo... *sigh*

matt
Wednesday, March 24, 2004 03:14:11 AM
IP: 207.230.48.91

Battle Beast - Not that I want to be picky, that was a question answered today and it was asked me. I quoted an answer with my question.

I can understand why Greg Weisman wouldn't want to pin the exact dates for when did Jade and Turquesa make it back to Guatamela; if Gargoyles ever comes back, it's a good idea to keep those options open. Looking back, I should have phrased my question to be do Jade and Turquesa make it back to Guatamela before the eggs in Guatemala hatch.

DPH
AR, USA
Wednesday, March 24, 2004 01:07:48 AM
IP: 67.14.195.25

...
Anonymous
Tuesday, March 23, 2004 10:40:06 PM
IP: 63.185.49.76

Thanks to ED, I found an interesting question (at least to me) in the "answered" queue. Here's a quote:

Pamber writes...

2)how hard was it to get those transplanted plants from Guatamela to grow on Avalon?

2. Not very.

OK. So I got to thinking... how far does Avalon's Magic go? I mena, can it make ANYTHING gorw? If you plant a cactus, will THAT grow? Banana's? Avacadoes, Tulips, REd peppers?

What ELSE can the Island do?

Anyone care to venture a guess or something Greg's already said?

That is all I will say.

Battle Beast
CanadaTuesday, March 23, 2004 08:41:00 PM
IP: 137.186.134.59

Sorry for the double post. While I was posting I ought to have added, of course, thanks to Greg for the interesting response.
Ed
Tuesday, March 23, 2004 08:18:47 PM
IP: 213.187.38.109

I was a bit surprised to see my question to Greg pop up. Makes me wish I could have gone back and re-edited it. At the time, I suspect it seemed that Greg would be able to catch up more quickly. Anyway, I meant 'last' as in 'most recent' rather than 'chronologically last'. Interestingly, I'm not sure I still feel the same way about multi-parters, but perhaps that's because continuity seems to be more widely used -- and abused -- in television nowadays. Or perhaps I'm just more aware of it. Quite weird reading myself 22 months ago. Seems like longer in some respects. Hmm.
Ed
Tuesday, March 23, 2004 08:14:17 PM
IP: 213.187.38.109

Alright, the backlog at Ask Greg has reached an important milestone: only 799 questions left. Better yet: 77 or 78 questions left until the 1st Gathering 2002 report comes up. The last Gathering 2002 report is . . 215 questions away with Aaron's report. If you go to the one before that, it's 94 questions away. It's

kathy writes...

Gathering Journal Part 2

So if Greg Weisman averages answering 2 or 3 questions a day until the time of the Gathering, he would have gone through answering all (except Aaron's) the Gathering 2002 reports by the time of the Gathering 2004.

That would be interesting to say that the backlog at Ask Greg is 2 years.

Jim R. - <After all this time, I've finally got a small list of (hopefully, legit and half-intelligent sounding) questions for Greg, but it figures that the queue has been closed.> If the queue wasn't closed, too many previously-answered questions would be accumulating.

Anyways, I still want to know if a separate forum will be set-up just to harvest the Gathering 2004 journals (no new questions). I fear the results of what would happen if Ask Greg was re-opened for questions. All the progress in the past few months would be undone in a matter of days.

DPH
AR, USA
Tuesday, March 23, 2004 06:53:15 PM
IP: 67.14.195.11

JJ Gregarius> "Local channel?"

You're right, probably not so local. What I meant to say was "basic cable." I've had the traditional basic cable for so long now that I almost consider it "local." Sorry for the confusion. =)

Jim R. - [jim@dialwforwarp.com]
Tuesday, March 23, 2004 11:53:19 AM
IP: 65.40.128.162

Greetings from the Gathering 2004 Staff!

We have decided to push the deadline for the preregistration from March 31st to April 30th! You have one extra month to take advantage of the cheap registration price of 40 USD/53 CAD!

You can also get the package deal that includes the registration, Banquet and t-shirt for only 100 USD/128 CAD!

Take advantage of the low price now! And if you're not sure you can come to the Gathering, or would like to support us, you can get a supporting membership for only 20 USD/27 CAD, membership which is upgradeable to a full one!

http://www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com/registration.html

Thank you!
- The Gathering 2004 Staff

And now a message from The Count:

39 days left before Gathering 2004 pre-registration prices increase.
10 days left to submit artwork and stories for the Gathering Anthology (deadline is April 1).
40 days left to submit entries for the Gathering T-shirt contest (deadline is May 1).
101 days left to submit entries for the Music Video contest (deadline is July 1).
106 days left to reserve your hotel room at the Delta Centre-Ville (deadline is July 6 at noon).
136 days left until The Gathering 2004 in Montreal, Quebec!

The Gathering Staff
Tuesday, March 23, 2004 06:54:07 AM
IP: 65.43.167.178

Sorry about the double post -- I didn't see BattleBeast's question.

Yup, that was Vinnie. Actually, that character was speaking for Weisman, as "The Journey" was the last ep he was actively involved with. The other eps. of the "Goliath Chronicles" were based on Weisman's notes, but heavily altered. For instance, "Runaways" was originally supposed to be "TimeDancer," the ep that would show Brooklyn embarking on and escaping from his grand adventure.

JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Tuesday, March 23, 2004 02:27:12 AM
IP: 65.244.170.163

Jim R.>> Local channel?
JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Tuesday, March 23, 2004 02:23:43 AM
IP: 65.244.170.163

Generally it would be a half hour on Saturdays and Sundays, but ABC Family Jetix sometimes runs marathons and other special events on Sundays.

No ratings have been released as of yet. At least not that I have access to.
William C. Maune - [wcm1db@mizzou.edu]
Columbia, MO, United States
Tuesday, March 23, 2004 01:29:22 AM
IP: 12.214.6.155

Ok gang, question:

Who was the guy who went to Japan at the end of "The Journey"? Wha that Vinnie? I havn't seen it for a LONG time.

That is all I will Say.

Battle Beast
CanadaTuesday, March 23, 2004 01:07:49 AM
IP: 137.186.134.59

Is it just a half hour on Saturdays or a half hour on both Saturday and Sunday? Stinks that it will be just a half-hour but that's better than being taken off completely...

Have any ratings been released on Gargoyles? I would think they would have to be decent if it is not getting replaced.

Rac
Troy, NY, USA
Monday, March 22, 2004 11:51:20 PM
IP: 24.194.34.168

Great news for 'Gargoyles'. Let's hope this puts wind in the sails of the DVDs! I also hope that Greg can swing some DVD features that promote the Gathering and suchlike to raise awareness for fans outside the fandom. I assume that sort of thing is possible without any legal craziness.

Greg: ("I think you're all just making an issue where none exists.") I hear nowadays people call this sort of thing an "Internet Discussion".

Ed
Monday, March 22, 2004 10:12:08 PM
IP: 213.187.38.109

It felt so weird, yet great to see Gargoyles on a local station. After reading the reports from in here that it was back on the "not-so-digital-cable-only" air, I actually managed to see the two episodes for myself this past Saturday on ABC Family. Memories of those Disney Afternoon days began coming back.

I need to rekindle some interest, and here's hoping that by watching now (and re-taping some episodes that I have, but are in bad quality), I'll be able to restart posting comments again. I miss this place, and have long missed the topics of old discussion, as well as some of the people I haven't seen here since I first posted.

After all this time, I've finally got a small list of (hopefully, legit and half-intelligent sounding) questions for Greg, but it figures that the queue has been closed. *sigh*

Jim R. - [jim@dialwforwarp.com]
Monday, March 22, 2004 09:37:55 PM
IP: 69.34.180.70

*** Breaking News - Gargoyles a Success? ***

Today ABC/Disney made its big presentation regarding what would be airing next season on ABC Kids, ABC Family and Toon Disney.

As many of you know, Gargoyles recently joined the ABC Family Jetix weekend line-up. Even though that block is adding two new series this fall, Gargoyles is still on the schedule! It will only be on for a half hour (11:30 AM Eastern) instead of a full hour, but I say that is still pretty good considering everything. It looks like Gargoyles has already graduated from schedule filler to a full-fledged part of the line-up!
William C. Maune - [Meteo@ToonZone.net]
Columbia, MO, United States
Monday, March 22, 2004 07:18:11 PM
IP: 12.214.6.155

There would be no problem setting an animated series in a realistic NYC. There's a new TMNT series that's currently doing it, last I heard.

And again, Greg Weisman when asked about 9/11's impact on the series never mentioned any problem in setting the series there either. I think you're all just making an issue where none exists.

Greg Bishansky
Monday, March 22, 2004 12:29:01 PM
IP: 216.179.4.248

ALEX GARG - You wrote: [Keep in mind that GARGOYLES launched only a year after the 1993 WTC attacks, and we know that the show was in production at the time, and yet that didn't deter the setting of the show.]

1994 was still an completely different time in atmosphere from today. I'm really not sure that the people behind animated series would want to set a show in a realistic version of NYC. (Even Big O's NYC was some apocalyptic version - well until they did that last episode of the series; I'm still trying to figure out what the hell was going on.)

You wrote: [Frankly I don't see a problem, especially now that we're almost three years out from the event.]

Its not so much a clear reason that I'm giving as much as it is a gut feeling that I get. I think that Disney would be reluctant to set a series in "real" NYC; future NYC or an extremely noticeably different version of the city would be something else.


TODD - You wrote: [The New Olympians spin-off definitely fares the least well among the various candidates - I get the suspicion that it comes mainly from the distinctly one-note tone that the NOs had of practically all being hostile towards humans]

That was one of the reasons that I couldn't like the series. The NOlympian cast that appeared in that episode was just so unsympathetic in general that I'm just not interested in seeing more of them. They are victims of the complete lack of time the episode - the episode and concept needed at least an hour to develop itself and only had 22 minutes.


BLAISE - You wrote: [because I love Sphinx's design (another cat-girl with wings!)]

One part of me is agreeing with your logic (how can I say no to any series that produces more catgirls? :-) ) but on the other hand, aside from that I'm still not very interested in the concept. It does create some interesting questions and I would be curious to see the effect of NOlympians on world politics but I still can't get over the introduction episode we got.


QUESTION - You wrote: [In our world I'd agree however in the gargoyles world there are other factors to figure in such as the Illuminati, Coyote-X, King Arthur and his New Camelot, Queen Mab, the Gargoyles, the New Olympians and Alexander Xanatos who might have all played all factor in the world being put under the UN.]

The way I see it, for every element that is trying to unify and make the world peaceful on a global level (Arthur, maybe Alex) you have a force that acts to balance things out and work against them (Illuminati, maybe Mab). Not to mention that aside from the sci-fi/fantasy elements that exist in the Gargoyles Universe, its basically supposed to be very much like our universe, even to the point of having 9-11 according to Greg. I can't see that world unified in 200 years or free of conflict. I don't think things will be the same as they are now but I certainly don't see unified world utopia especially under anything run by the UN.

You wrote: [I'd think that wars would still be present why else would there be gargoyle peacekeepers in the UN?]

I hadn't heard about this bit; Greg mentioned that G2198 would have UN Gargoyle Peacekeepers?

(I don't think that the presence of Gargoyles among UN instititutions means that a dawn of world peace and unity has arisen. Or that it would make the UN competant enough to run the world. It just means that Gargoyles are recognized as either a nation or an ethnic group that is eligible to participate in UN instititutions. That doesn't really mean anything useful to the group involved, except having to pay membership dues.)

You wrote: [I think that Greg probably wanted to get away from the cliche used in so many science fiction series like Trek of aliens being the reason that humanity unites under one world government, which I for one find overused and hardly plausible for a long term unification.]

I meant it more in a David Brin manner, where the aliens/mythological beings just wreck so much of the earth and enough of the governments in the world that whatever is left reshapes itself to end up governing the world.

(Check out the GN LifeEaters for a good example of this - its an expansion of Brin's short story Thor vs Captain America. And although there are problems with the second part of the story (little things that catch a person's eye if you know enough history), the ending is a pretty good example of the scenario above.)

I could see the SpaceSpawn trying first to rule with puppet governments and getting resistance from some small nations (either vocal or underground) but that once the resistance really picks up speed, they or their allies are going to have to start directly rule the earth and eventually have to pacify it. At the end of such a conflict I could see a new UN with the core surviving nations at its head, having to run a world government in order to function in intergalactic politics.

You wrote: [Most of the major players aside from Boreas, Talos, Taurus and Ekidna haven't even been introduced especially the faction that wants humans to worship them again.]

Talos being an emotionless robot doesn't give a good or bad vibe off in the episode. Taurus starts off unfair but at least he grows in the episode. I suppose that its Boreas who just turns me off the episode entirely. The entire episode has him trying to appear fair but in fact he's as bad as everyone else on the island. That makes him a bit arrogent and defintely (though honestly in his view unknowly) hypocritical.

(The problem that the episode has, mainly due to lack of time, is that while the NOlympians feel threatened and under siege by Elisa's presence on the island, we just don't get a feel at the same time of how badly isolated they are. They are afraid that she might say something about them but even if she did, it would end up with her in an insane asylum - and they can't recognize the fact because they think that the human world still relates to them (or at least memories of them) as real rather than just mythology.)


MATT - You wrote: [sure, but thats not a difference of the two spin-offs, thats a similarity. we know the general cast of Dark Ages, just as we know the general cast of Timedancer, and in both series' we know how it'll end. Dark Ages ends at Awakening, Timedancer ends with Brook and family getting home.]

I don't think that I'm explaining my point as clearly as I'd like to. With TIMEDANCER we don't know anything about how the cast is going to develop or what is ultimately going to happen to them aside from the fact that the Timedance is going to end with Brooklyn and his family in the same place he started at roughly the same time he left. With DARK AGES although we don't know specifics about the years 971-994, we know that no matter what happens, the Trio for example is going to head into the characterization of the main series. Goliath and Demona are going to end up together and then end up in the events of the main series. Maybe the best way to describe what I see as the difference is that with TIMEDANCER we are taking a character from our present point in the series and we are moving forward with him. In DARK AGES we are not dealing with present versions of the characters and moving forward with them. Instead we are looking at past versions of the characters that are going to develop into characters we already know in the present. We don't know how Brooklyn will be and how changed he'll be at the end of TIMEDANCER. We do know that no matter what at the end of DARK AGES Brooklyn is going to become the Brooklyn of the main series.


DPH - You wrote: [Have you ever read TGS's take on Timedancer? I really despise the idea of Brooklyn showing up and 5 seconds (or minutes) later leaving.]

I don't mind it if its part of buildup to something else in the same story. If he jumped into some time for a few minutes and saw something out of context that effected him in the main story that is in the next jump then it flows properly. But if he just spends five minutes in some time for no reason and for no effect, then its essentially just filler.


JAMES - You wrote: ["I'll find Fry's coffin, get his corpse and keep it under my mattress to remind me that he's really dead. That'll prove I'm not insane!"]

I love that episode! (They should never have cancelled this series; it was just starting to get really good and suddenly its off the air. Meanwhile the Simpsons, which is a show I love, has pretty much been a zombie waiting for someone to put it out of its misery for at least a season or two is still going. With Fox bringing back Family Guy, I hope that they will eventually consider bring back this series too.)

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Monday, March 22, 2004 10:22:48 AM
IP: 12.75.158.241

My Turn:
Timedancer: As a self-proclaimed writer, I think this one's got the most potential because of the innate variety that comes with the 'topic'. But for the same reason it also has the most potential to suck.

Bad Guys: Greg W. obviously has a lot of detail thought up for the world Gargoyles circa 1997, and this would be an easy format to show it off. I also think it has lots of potential to be funny.

2198: If they avoid the great scifi dilema of the setting being more important than the characters (or becoming a character itself). But I think there's alot of room for lameness to creep in.

Pendragon: I'm afraid it'll become flashback-city as they try to retell Arthurian mythology/background. If it can stay in the 20th century, I'd be more inclined to watch it. That said I'm also afraid they'll draw it out too much, a miniseries might be good.

Dark Ages: Knowing the end doesn't bother me. I just don't know what kind of stories they could do beyond Vikings and Archmage.

NOs: Think this one would be better as a storyline in one of the other spin-offs. We could get more of a NO politics vs. human politics angle. But I'll watch the episode again before I pass final judgement.


Futurama:"Darn! I was going to eat that Alien mummy!"


DPH: Damn you, cost-effectiveness!

CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Monday, March 22, 2004 03:02:34 AM
IP: 132.170.38.21

Battle Beast> My preference for posting with Hollywood notwithstanding, I'm a *grrl*. -_-

Another fan site I noticed disappear was the old copy of rat.org that Hudson put up a few years back. But since he's recently redesigned ketnar.org, I guess he chose to get rid of it. Kinda sad... rat.org *was* the very first big Gargoyles fan site. Hope you guys visited the backup while you had the chance.

Vashkoda
Monday, March 22, 2004 02:25:56 AM
IP: 129.98.127.164

Not that it matters, but I do not see this post you refer to on last week's board.
:confused:

JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Monday, March 22, 2004 02:00:26 AM
IP: 65.244.170.163

JJ> to be fair, you were the first one to post on the cleared board, but James Anatidae was the first one this week... his post was posted on last week's board at 12:00:02, Monday March 22.

That is all I will say.

Battle Beast
Alberta, Canada
Monday, March 22, 2004 01:11:52 AM
IP: 137.186.134.59

And here, in the top ten for the second week in a row, slipping from #1 seven spots, is BATTLE BEAST, with his hit song, I CLAIM 8TH SPOT.

BTW> Only one person has tried to guess where my end thingy is from. You can still guess... it's a free contest with the room's respect bestowed on you for about a week. :)

That is all I will say.

Battle Beast
Alberta, Canada
Monday, March 22, 2004 01:08:11 AM
IP: 137.186.134.59

7.
CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Monday, March 22, 2004 01:03:07 AM
IP: 132.170.38.21

6th!

At the end of the last week, the spin-off scores stand at:
Timedancer.....4.63
G2198.....4.00
Pendragon.....3.88
Dark Ages.....3.50
Bad Guys.....3.00
New Olympians.....2.00

So TIMEDANCER snuck up over PENDRAGON and G2198 rocketed out of the tie with DARK AGES, which scored a little lower; BAD GUYS scored a slightly higher but maintains its place, and there's been no movement on NEW OLYMPIANS. I'll keep track for a while longer/however long this conversation lasts - I'm not particularly concerned with filling a quota for scores, but more lists would be nice.

Alex Garg - [alex_garg@yahoo.com]
VA, USA
Monday, March 22, 2004 12:45:35 AM
IP: 216.145.68.130

5th
Nickerous - [nickerous@yahoo.com]
SC
Monday, March 22, 2004 12:33:55 AM
IP: 66.220.76.210

4th.
Leo
Monday, March 22, 2004 12:08:59 AM
IP: 68.231.241.236

#3, hopefully.

JJ Gregorius - I despise it because I consider it cheap stunt that doesn't amount to anything. Frankly, it wouldn't be cost-effective. Designing a background for 5 second scene wouldn't be very economical. From a cost-prospective, there would be probably be a minimum amount of time Brooklyn spends in any location just to keep the budget for the animation in check.

DPH
AR, USA
Monday, March 22, 2004 12:05:22 AM
IP: 67.14.195.35

First in the name of Phillip J. Fry! (Hey it doesn't have to be all Gargoyles all the time in here does it?)

"I'll find Fry's coffin, get his corpse and keep it under my mattress to remind me that he's really dead. That'll prove I'm not insane!"

James Anatidae - [parshallNOSPAM@citcom.net]
Monday, March 22, 2004 12:00:30 AM
IP: 207.144.84.85

1st
JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Monday, March 22, 2004 12:00:22 AM
IP: 65.244.170.163

DPH -- Why do you despise that aspect?
JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Monday, March 22, 2004 12:00:12 AM
IP: 65.244.170.163