It could be worse, Joe Quesada could be in charge.
The Gargoyles Pulse (Anthony Tini)
...updated Mondays afternoon/early evening
posted @ Sun, Jan 13, 2008 11:59:55 pm EST from 70.15.84.29

Greg B> "I think, now that we have the comic book, we have more questions than answers. Greg kept a lot of secrets."

No kidding. I was just discussing this with my friend Ryan yesterday. During that ten years, it really seemed that Greg had told us a lot, but now it is becoming clear just how much he held back. Think about the Double Date story. Greg told us Elisa and Golith would go on a double date with Delilah and either Jason or Morgan. But look at Issues 3-5. Look how much else is part of that story. We had no idea Thailog would be involved, for instance.
It really makes me wonder about Issues 10-12. Greg told us what seemed like a lot about that story. But how much did he not tell us. I think there are going to be some major surprises coming up, even in the stories we thought we knew about. And who knows what Issues 13-24 will have. Even of the stuff Greg did tell us about, we are quickly running out of info. Greg said he had years of Gargoyles stories. We know only a couple dozen issues worth of stories at most.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Sun, Jan 13, 2008 10:30:33 pm EST from 68.184.215.167

No, Avalon is a borough in New Jersey.

The Devil and the Illuminati> I am not speaking in terms of the "Gargoyles" Universe. But the Bavarian Illuminati, the one founded by Adam Weishaupt gained a reputation for being Satanic, even though that was poppycock. They considered themselves enlightened and "truth seekers". I believe even the name means "enlightened". The Church had them outlawed and declared them Satanic. The Illuminati was very Atheistic.

Now, obviously this is not at all how the "Gargoyles Universe" Illuminati operates. Hell, one of their leading members is the Fisher King. The other is quite possibly a bastard child of Thomas Jefferson. But, there is obviously a lot of Biblical references with the Illuminati. The mark of the beast. The Holy Grail. Shari's stories about the Stone of Destiny tie in with Moses and the exodus.

I think, now that we have the comic book, we have more questions than answers. Greg kept a lot of secrets.
Greg Bishansky
"Fredo, you're nothing to me now. You're not a brother, you're not a friend. I don't want to know you or what you do. I don't want to see you at the hotels, I don't want you near my house. When you see our mother, I want to know a day in advance, so I won't be there. You understand?" -Michael Corleone
posted @ Sun, Jan 13, 2008 10:00:08 pm EST from 75.56.245.4

Silly folks. Everyone knows that Avalon is really a Canadian peninsula.
Whitbourne
posted @ Sun, Jan 13, 2008 9:45:15 pm EST from 64.230.28.131

Incidentally, according to the letter in "The Silver Falcon", Mace Malone's full first name was "Mason". Could this have been an allusion to the Freemasons? (Of course, "Mace" itself would have its own connotations in the Gargoyles Universe - even more ominous from a gargoyle's perspective.)
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Sun, Jan 13, 2008 6:15:37 pm EST from 4.244.209.19

Re: The Freemasons, etc.

There's a show about the Freemasons coming up on the History Channel soon (Jan. 28th) http://www.history.com/shows.do?action=detail&episodeId=225234 If it's the same one I saw a while back, it's well worth checking out. Very interesting and informative.
Bagpipes5K - [bagpipes5k2 at sbcglobal dot net]
posted @ Sun, Jan 13, 2008 5:21:50 pm EST from 69.217.151.125

<<That is the government's answer. Of course, there are the conspiracy theorists that believe that there is a secret organization that controls everything. This group is called the Illuminati. Their symbol is the all seeing eye. Therefore, some would believe that since the symbol is on the one dollar bill then the Illuminati has some kind of control over the U.S government.>>

No, in the real world, this group is call the Freemasons. The reason many people believe that the pyramid, all-seeing eye of Horus, and the "new world order" inscription have ulterior meanings is because these are all Masonic symbols. The were chosen by The Founding Fathers, many of whom, by no small coincidence, were Freemasons. The images in the two circle on the back of the dollar bill do indeed comprise the entirety of the Great Seal of the United States. However, only the obverse of the seal, containing the American eagle grasping the olive branch and thirteen arrows, is still used on official documents.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry

166 days left until The Gathering 2008 in Chicago, Illinois!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Sun, Jan 13, 2008 9:56:24 am EST from 76.241.154.165

Since we learned about the Illuminati having 666 membership slots in #5 (which came out half a year ago), the connection to the Book of Revelation does feel like "old news".

I don't think that the Illuminati of the Gargoyles Universe work for the Devil, though - at least, no more than anyone who takes an "ends justify the means" attitude towards overcoming obstacles does.

I think that Greg would stay away from Satan for a while, because of the potential religious controversy - though, in light of all the cases of the gargoyles being mistaken by frightened, superstitious humans for demons, it would be tempting to imagine some genuine demons show up - and have them looking like regular humans without any horns, cloven hooves, or batlike wings, as part of the series' "Don't judge a book by its cover" approach.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Sun, Jan 13, 2008 7:47:21 am EST from 4.244.212.202

This reminds me...we know that there are some "gods" in the Gargoyles universe, like Anubis for example. And as of #7, we have reason to suspect that some other biblical figures are real in the Gargoyles universe (if the stories be true). So, I wonder if Satan might be real (in some sense or another) in the gargoyles universe? I guess he'd obviously have to be a member of the third race, or a damn powerful sorcerer.
Rebel
posted @ Sun, Jan 13, 2008 1:22:29 am EST from 24.227.200.138

I'm not sure if there are any other biblical references you can associate with the Illuminati, but I'm sure if you tried hard enough, you can find many parallels between the devil and the Illuminati.
The Gargoyles Pulse (Anthony Tini)
...updated Mondays afternoon/early evening
posted @ Sun, Jan 13, 2008 1:08:31 am EST from 70.15.84.29

I'm not entirely sure what I was getting at. It just sort of surprised me to see that the two things we know about the Illuminati so far (and note that I'm only talking about the fictional, Gargoyles Illuminati and not suggesting some real-world conspiracy) came from the same biblical passage. I knew 666 was biblical, and I knew there was something about how people couldn't buy or sell without the mark of the beast, but I didn't realize that those both referred to the same creature/person. I'm not suggesting that Greg is steering the Garg-verse into some sort of Left Behind-style apocalyptic fiction gibberish. I'm saying that it now seems very clear that the Illuminati modeled themselves after the Beast/Antichrist, whereas the number 666 might have had some other explanation as to why they picked it. Maybe I'm overreacting to something that was already obvious to everyone else, but I wonder if the Illuminati's modus operandi has any further biblical inspiration...
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sun, Jan 13, 2008 12:47:01 am EST from 68.58.182.37

Jurgan>
Q: What is the significance of the symbols on the back of the one-dollar bill? I'm particularly interested in the eye and the pyramid.

A: The eye and the pyramid shown on the reverse side of the one-dollar bill are in the Great Seal of the United States. The Great Seal was first used on the reverse of the one-dollar Federal Reserve note in 1935. The Department of State is the official keeper of the Seal. They believe that the most accurate explanation of a pyramid on the Great Seal is that it symbolizes strength and durability. The unfinished pyramid means that the United States will always grow, improve and build. In addition, the "All-Seeing Eye" located above the pyramid suggests the importance of divine guidance in favor of the American cause. The inscription ANNUIT COEPTIS translates as "He (God) has favored our undertakings," and refers to the many instances of Divine Providence during our Government's formation. In addition, the inscription NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM translates as "A new order of the ages," and signifies a new American era.

source: http://www.treas.gov/education/faq/currency/portraits.shtml

*****

That is the government's answer. Of course, there are the conspiracy theorists that believe that there is a secret organization that controls everything. This group is called the Illuminati. Their symbol is the all seeing eye. Therefore, some would believe that since the symbol is on the one dollar bill then the Illuminati has some kind of control over the U.S government.

But the one dollar bill is real. The Illuminati, and all the information provided in the bible have not been proven. So I don't know what you're getting at with your statement about the $1 and the Illuminati connection. I think it's pretty much common knowledge. And Greg Weisman picked 666 members for a reason, and in the Gargoyle Universe that reason is most likely liked to conspiracies, the bible, and other sources.
The Gargoyles Pulse (Anthony Tini)
...updated Mondays afternoon/early evening
posted @ Sun, Jan 13, 2008 12:26:35 am EST from 70.15.84.29

JURGAN> So, Mephisto is Number One? Because he's already fucked up Spider-Man. What chance does Goliath have?

;)
Greg Bishansky
"Never hate your enemies, it clouds your judgement." -Michael Corleone
posted @ Sun, Jan 13, 2008 12:25:50 am EST from 75.56.245.4

HOLY S***. Oh... I hate to jump in, but... have we discussed this? Because if not... Well, I just saw a quote from Revelations, and it seems odd that I might be the first to make this connection, but I don't recall this ever coming up before:

"He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666."

Revlation 13: 16-18.

Questions: How many members are in the Illuminati? Okay, we all got that one. What is their "mark," and where else have we seen it? It is in fact impossible to buy or sell (with cash, anyway) in the United States without interacting with the mark of the Illuminati, because it's on... the back of the $1 bill. Ahh... oh, this is just too perfect. Has this really never come up?
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Jan 12, 2008 11:58:32 pm EST from 68.58.182.37

Vicky82 - One problem: we don't have a definition of what constitutes a full clan. It is becoming quite apparent how the Labyrinth clan is going to grow, but my best guesses for how the Manhattan clan grows involves donations from the largest clans, assumedly the Japanese and New Olympian clans. In my mind, it's a toss-up between those two clans who is the largest.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Sat, Jan 12, 2008 10:50:29 pm EST from 98.20.251.54

Titania's mention that Fox had shown no sign of magic in her suggests that she (Fox) grew at the normal rate for a human.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Sat, Jan 12, 2008 9:07:31 pm EST from 4.244.213.209

Oh sorry that was me
Vicky82
posted @ Sat, Jan 12, 2008 8:27:30 pm EST from 195.93.21.4

I don't know if anyone has done this but I did some working out on how many gargoyles in Manhattan (not including the labyrinth clan) there will be in 2198, so I worked out estimating that there will be 84 Gargoyles but thats not if there were paired up or moved out so it probably be a little less and could be at least 29 eggs ready to hatch in 2198.

I don't know how long can live up to so I put it up to 100/(200) years old(not all of them of cause and not including who could end up going to Avalon for a couple of years)Tachi could be still alive by 2198 if she lives up to 100/(200) but I doubt it. but I guess that Artus 90/(180), Gwen 80/(160) and Lance 70/(140) could be still alive

I did this all on microsoft works spreadsheet so it got really confusing so it went far back as Brooklyn and Katanas great great grandgargoyle from there 3rd egg

So I hope I estimated this correctly
Anonymous
posted @ Sat, Jan 12, 2008 8:26:25 pm EST from 195.93.21.4

dph >
"Since Alex is growing so fast, doesn't that mean that Fox grew up faster too?"

I have a hypothesis about this. It would seem logical that she did grow up quickly, but perhaps being "magically stimulated" early in life is part of what makes third race members grow up fast. If that is the case, then Fox would have grown up at the normal mortal rate, and Puck's teaching is responsible for Alex's potential to be "unlocked", allowing for speedy development.

"That would be interesting, but of course, it would probably take place over a 48 hour period. But I kinda doubt that we will get to the year 1998 even by issue 24."

True. Unfortunately.
Rebel
posted @ Sat, Jan 12, 2008 8:20:46 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

Patrick - <Avalon is surrounded by water,> Yea, but one question: just far out does the water extend beyond Avalon? Furthermore, from what we've seen so far, it appears as though everybody approaching Avalon via water enters through one location. I'm not disputing that we're dealing with an island, but so far we've one side of who knows how many sides this island has. I'd really enjoy a bonus feature of having a map of Avalon drawn from an aerial point of view. Also, how big is Avalon? the size of Texas? New Jersey?
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Sat, Jan 12, 2008 8:15:36 pm EST from 98.20.251.54

As of now, I make a prediction, by the end of December this year, I will achieve the rank of at least 7th place in the Ed's Gargoyles 2008 Prediction Competition. :-)

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=507 <- It's been over slightly 9 months of This day in Gargoyles' Universe History.... Wow!!

Dumb question: Since Alex is growing so fast, doesn't that mean that Fox grew up faster too?

Rebel - <And then maybe we'd get a brief, maybe one-page thing with panels of the different clan's eggs bursting from their shells all over the world> That would be interesting, but of course, it would probably take place over a 48 hour period. But I kinda doubt that we will get to the year 1998 even by issue 24.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Sat, Jan 12, 2008 8:07:44 pm EST from 98.20.251.54

Avalon is surrounded by water, and a blue whale can produce 1,000 pounds of milk every day. Just a thought. ;)
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
got milk?
posted @ Sat, Jan 12, 2008 8:05:14 pm EST from 76.241.154.165

Bob >
"Does any one know how much care eggs and young gargoyles need, maybe they pretty much take care of themselves (other then feeding)and this is how the mayan clan and Tom, Magus and Katherine did it and will do it?"

I've always assumed (and I have no real reason to assume this, it's just my own personal hunch) that infant gargoyles are nowhere near as helpless as infant humans. It usually takes humans between 9 months and 1 year before they can walk, I just can't imagine a baby gargoyle taking double that time. I sorta always figured that an infant gargoyle (perhaps a few days after hatching, to give them time to get used to the world) was maybe around the equivalent of a 9 month old to 1 year old human, in terms of mobility. But like I said, I have NO reason to believe this is necessarily true.

I have another question. I think Greg has said that Gargoyles are highly in tune with the planet. So taking that into account, do you think a hypothetical clan of all male gargoyles (or, all females) would, for example, know that the year 19XX is breeding and laying year? And that the year 19XX is egg hatching year? Would gargoyles know, even if they had no mates of their own to breed with and no rookery of their own, that it's time for mating or for eggs to hatch, and thereby conclude that somewhere else on the planet, this is happening in other clans even if it's not in their own?
Rebel
posted @ Sat, Jan 12, 2008 7:54:59 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

I've sometimes wondered what it must have been like for Princess Katharine, the Magus, and Tom raising thirty-six gargoyles - three humans having to keep track of twelve times their number of hatchlings. Let's hope that there were a few milkable animals on Avalon like cows and goats, so that Katharine wouldn't have to nurse them all herself. (Though Greg did hint at some such solution.)

(Knowing Avalon, the cows and goats on it - if there were any - would probably have been descendants of the ones of myth and legend - say, Audhumbla or the cattle of Helios in the case of the cows, Amalthea or Heidrun in the case of the goats.)
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Sat, Jan 12, 2008 7:10:04 pm EST from 4.244.214.120

It would be awesome to see baby gargoyles, especaily mayan ones they have always been my favorite. Does any one know how much care eggs and young gargoyles need, maybe they pretty much take care of themselves (other then feeding)and this is how the mayan clan and Tom, Magus and Katherine did it and will do it?
bob
"no, are ya mad these are your childern...no one threatens my eggs"- Princess Katherine- Avalon part 3
posted @ Sat, Jan 12, 2008 6:39:09 pm EST from 66.202.98.82

Antiyonder> Considering how fast Alex is aging, he won't be a baby by the time Tachi hatches.

I foresee, Alex strapping M80s to Tachi in a lame attempt to send him to Uranus.

Speaking of Alex, just how do you think he's going to grow up, anyway? Obviously, by 2198 he's the Secretary General of the United Nations, so he doesn't turn out too badly. But before then, what do you see happening? This is a wealthy child born with a lot more power than a child should have, hell imagine him as a surly teenager?

"Dad, I don't want to take over the family business. I've been reading Noam Chomsky."
Greg Bishansky
"Never hate your enemies, it clouds your judgement." -Michael Corleone
posted @ Sat, Jan 12, 2008 4:16:50 pm EST from 75.56.245.4

I imagine that the hatching takes place at least over the span of one night, if not a couple nights. It doesn't happen exactly at sundown probably since in 2198 the gargoyles were awake to witness the hatching. So, I think there could be gargoyles hatching in New York and Guatemala at the same time and maybe even New York and London, etc. It all depends on when during the night a given egg is gonna hatch.

As for the Mayan Clan, I've thought about them raising 30-50 eggs on their own and admit it'd be rough, but it is nothing compared to Katharine, Magus and Tom, three humans, raising 36 hatchlings on their own without much previous knowledge of doing so. At least the Mayan Clan will have gargoyles with experience raising hatchlings, not to mention two females capable of nursing them. And knowing the Mayan Clan, I'm sure that if K, M and T could manage on Avalon, the Pendent Wearers can find a way for The Green to provide as well.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Sat, Jan 12, 2008 3:56:39 pm EST from 68.184.215.167

Since Alex of course doesn't have any fear of Gargoyles, I wonder how well he and Taichi would get along (Baby human and baby Gargoyle),
Antiyonder
posted @ Sat, Jan 12, 2008 3:55:03 pm EST from 72.87.13.156

Patrick > True. Maybe it could show different rookeries at different stages. Maybe one rookery somewhere has already had all the eggs hatch and the hatchlings are being cared for and clothed by their clans, maybe another rookery elsewhere is about halfway through hatching, maybe another just has a few hatchlings out of their eggs, and maybe another just has one single egg just beginning to crack.

I pity the Mayan clan, having to raise a whole rookery of eggs with just the four of them (well generally two, as there's usually one pair patrolling).
Rebel
posted @ Sat, Jan 12, 2008 3:24:09 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

Life, it seems, is like Earth. Living comes a full circle at a time of convineance.
Dangerla
posted @ Sat, Jan 12, 2008 3:15:55 pm EST from 4.90.9.152

Actually, the earth's rotation makes it impossible for a synchronized hatching to happen worldwide. Think about it. What time of day is it on the other side of the globe right now?
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"Two peanuts were walking down the street. One was a salted!. Wocka, wocka, wocka!" - Fozzie Bear
posted @ Sat, Jan 12, 2008 2:16:52 pm EST from 76.241.154.165

Rebel> Agreed. I had the same thought myself.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Sat, Jan 12, 2008 12:08:30 pm EST from 68.184.215.167

I'm sorta hoping that, when Tachi hatches, the characters point out that new gargoyles are hatching all over the world. And then maybe we'd get a brief, maybe one-page thing with panels of the different clan's eggs bursting from their shells all over the world (our characters won't be seeing all this, but WE will). That'd be neat.
Rebel
posted @ Sat, Jan 12, 2008 11:45:12 am EST from 24.227.200.138

Kerry> I really hope we get to see the Mayan hatchlings. That'd be awesome. The next known event we have concerning the Mayan Clan is Obsidiana coming to the US in 2006. By then the hatchlings will be 8 years old (equivalent to 4 year old humans), so they'd still be pretty cute if we saw them then. Of course, we could see them sooner or later or never. We'll see.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Sat, Jan 12, 2008 10:27:04 am EST from 68.184.215.167

Rebel: Well, anyone can deduce from my past posts (especially the two that came before I posted my picture) that I have a disdain for popular culture. I've never been quiet about that. Same thing with the sarcasm. I'm constantly sarcastic in here. To ask me to stop being sarcastic is like asking an element with an atomic number of two to stop being helium. And as far as the last three, you were wrong. It should stand to reason that if I don't much care for popular culture, the type of car I drive shouldn't matter to me. But whatever. Thanks for playing.

Patrick: <Lexington isn't as smart,> No kidding. It's just a military-grade computer virus. My eleven-year-old half brother could probably crack it (knowing him, though, he'd probably create one and hold the free world for ransom. He reminds me a lot of me, except smarter).
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
Dean: "But that might have been someone's spirit, pop." Thadeus: "All the more reason to get it the hell off me." ("Venture Brothers")
posted @ Sat, Jan 12, 2008 10:00:28 am EST from 71.62.198.251

Asatira> In particular I'm looking forward to seeing Mayan females with the snakey lower half, but that will be awhile in coming. LOL Though they'll be adorable babies.

I'd also love to get a look at the clans we haven't seen yet, and Xanadu's beasts.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Sat, Jan 12, 2008 9:39:18 am EST from 24.98.74.35

If there's one repeated lesson to be learned from the trio, it's don't judge a book by its cover. Broadway isn't as dumb as he looks, Lexington isn't as smart, and Brooklyn isn't as smooth.

All this talk of the "Cute Monster Girl" syndrome has inexplicably melded with some clips I was watching on the Comedy Central web site, leading to the fleeting thought of Angela being interviewed for a certain late night TV news show and being asked, "Do you think America is ready for a CMGILF?"

167 days left until The Gathering 2008 in Chicago, Illinois!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"Two peanuts were walking down the street. One was a salted!. Wocka, wocka, wocka!" - Fozzie Bear
posted @ Sat, Jan 12, 2008 8:06:37 am EST from 76.241.154.165

I'd like to add that we do tend to apply our standards and stereotypes to others, including inanimate objects (we're pretty self-absorbed). Admittedly, the few female gargoyles seen through the series do tend to match up to CMG, but remember there were only a few and rather fleeting. This began to be addressed when we started seeing more clans and different types. Given more time and more exposure to clans, we'll start to see a lot more variety in the looks of both males and females. And I think it's a mark of good character development that many of us can look at the more exoticly designed characters and see them as beautiful and handsome even if they don't fit the humanoid patterns we're familiar with.
Asatira
posted @ Sat, Jan 12, 2008 1:05:16 am EST from 68.119.80.181

Phoenician - Got your predictions recorded.
If there is any more last minute entries, you got 2-3 hours to post.

Anybody seen Guandalug la'Fay online lately?

One more thing, while I"m thinking about it, as I understand it, compiled version of the 1st 6 issues of gargoyles doesn't have any spoilers in it, right?
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Sat, Jan 12, 2008 1:04:55 am EST from 98.20.251.54

****A chair fades into view in front of the Comment Room fire. The fire turns green, billows forth, and spits Blaise out and into the chair with enough force to knock it over. Blaise stands up, dusts himself off, rights the chair and sits in it.**** Been a bit rough lately. Oh, well.

TRIO'S DESIGNS> As I understand it, Rebel's saying that the Trio's designs, especially in regards to Broadway and (to a lesser extent) Lexington, were more "cartoony" and fitting for more "one-dimensional" characterizations than what they eventually developed. I mean, from a design standpoint, they are clearly from the same animated show as Goliath and all that (at least they are to me), but they look like they are meant to fill in the usual stereotypes for action shows.
Broadway: The dim-witted, ever eating, strong guy (think Hunk from the American version of "Voltron," or Armand from "Mummies Alive!"). This is not just because of his bulk, but a combination of that, his "apish" mouth and brow, eye shape (yes, that plays a part, too), and his voice.
Lexington: The little, cute one, and/or (with his huge cranium and gigantic eyes--evocative of glasses) the smart one (Pidge from "Voltron"). This image would of course be enhanced by his high voice.
In other words, they basically look like one-note characters who have a hook and nothing more. If I understand it correctly, Rebel's objection (and please, correct me if I'm wrong, Rebel) is that their "stock character" physicality is incongruous with their later development (Broadway's intelligence and insight, Lexington's vengeful streak, etc.).
I don't know how exactly Brooklyn fits into this thing, though. I mean, as far as "cartoon hero physicality stereotypes" are concerned, my personal experience would point to Brooklyn, not Goliath, as the leader from day one. I mean, looking at most animated action shows (outside the ones like "Thundercats" and "He-Man", where ALL the male characters have the EXACT SAME muscular build (probably steroid-induced)), the big, muscular guy is NOT the leader (even if he isn't fat). No, the leader--while definitely well toned--is usually slender and fast (but not the fastest). Not to mention that the "token female" of the team (if she is not related to him) will always be attracted to him and vice versa. They won't be "lovey dovey" or anything (because then the action-crazy boy audience will get pissed), but the attraction will be pretty obvious.
But that's not the way it is with "Gargoyles." Instead, the big, muscular (but not big-bellied) guy is the leader. He's also intelligent (not usual for big, muscular guys), philosophical and...well, technically he and the main female character ARE an item, but she is of a different species. But, as I understand Rebel's arguments, that's all par for the course because his FACE is more human looking than Brooklyn's (and his eyes are more serious, I guess).
Actually, to a certain extent I agree with Rebel: the Trio's designs are a bit less "serious" than Goliath and Hudson's. But to me that makes sense, seeing as they are also a fair amount YOUNGER than both of them (equal to 18 years old at the start of the series). Also, from a "cartoon stereotypes" perspective, I think the fact that the Trio subvert their roles is actually quite brilliant. I mean, I LOVE the fact that Broadway *looks* like the stereotypical "fat, dumb strong guy" but proves himself to be anything but. I LOVE the fact that Lexington, the "small, cute, smart one" proves that he can be just as vengeful as any other member of the clan, if not more so. And yes, I actually LOVE the fact that Brooklyn, the closest to the "Leader" stereotype of the Trio and my favorite character, has a really hard time finding a date. And, since one of the main themes of the show is the discrepancy between appearance and character, I think the difference between the Trio's stereotype appearances and their deep characters is *perfect.*

BLUEWYVERN> Check the ASK GREG archives. Greg once wrote that one of his bosses originally wanted there to be TWO kinds (races/species) of "humanoid" gargoyles (those that were more human in appearance like Goliath, and those that were more bestial in appearance, like the Trio). Greg nixed that idea.

A REACTION TO THE NEW LONDON FEMALE> While I was visiting my family over the holidays, I showed my mother my "Gargoyles" comics (she had showed some interest in them). When I pointed out to her the latest London gargoyles, my mother's reaction was somewhat along the lines of:
"So they finally put a stout female gargoyle in this and what does she look like?! A PIG!!"
I guess you can't win them all. ;-) (She said it with a smirk on her face, though.)

Well, I've said my peace. Back to reality I go. Until next time, farewell. ****Blaise stands up, removes the cushion from the chair, and dives into it (the chair, not the cushion). The chair then fades away.****
Blaise
"Build a man a fire, keep him warm for a day. Set a man on fire, keep him warm for the rest of his life."--Terry Pratchett's "Jingo"
posted @ Sat, Jan 12, 2008 12:44:35 am EST from 4.233.44.246

Greg > Both. :) Anyway, I wasn't specifically referring to *that* house, somehow I didn't think that you were in your own house in that pic anyway.

As far as all these assumptions go...I dunno, I basically just took cues from the general appearance, facial expressions, posture, clothing, and then just put down whatever the voices in my head told me (hence some of the really random things). It would have been especially interesting if lots of us had done predictions for each other, but then again I guess some of you probably already know each other pretty well from Gatherings.

About the boar female's nature -- it would be kinda cool if she were a gentle soul. If we see any other members of the London clan, it'd be really neat if some of them "broke the mold" for their respective animal as well. For example, it would be kinda surprising if that stage male is a ferocious warrior who is gung-ho for a battle (I don't get that impression from looking at him, but who knows?).

Speaking of him, we've all talked a lot about that boar female, but it doesn't seem like that male has been the subject of much discussion. Anybody have any thoughts or impressions about him?
Rebel
posted @ Sat, Jan 12, 2008 12:35:03 am EST from 24.227.200.138

Rebel: I wouldn't mind if she wasn't explicitly mated: a lot of gargoyles characters don't have their mates explicitly shown or their status even mentioned. It would only be a problem if she was said to be mateless specifically because she was somehow "ugly" by gargoyle standards.

Though with the London Clan, it's less subversive than with other types, because the Londoners all have snouts and beaks. It'd be even more absurd than normal if all the females were shown as snoutless.

It's interesting to note that with Una, her designer took care to make her hyper-feminie as a female humanoid equine could be: putting her in a pink dress, with lips on her snout, and using the stereotypically-feminine unicorn with blonde hair. Don't get me wrong, she's a badass character and it's cool to see a female clan leader (whose status will hopefully soon be "canonized"), but still....

I prefer the aesthetic of beaked non-London garogyles, so I've wanted to see a female like that ever since I was a kid. It might be neat to have a beaked/snouted female happily mated with a beakless male. I drew up a couple like that once, but nothing beats the "real" thing, i.e. canon.
Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream"--Shirley Jackson
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 11:42:12 pm EST from 216.36.154.204

Siren> Ever looked at a Torrid? They have some fun clothes. ^..^
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 11:31:32 pm EST from 24.98.74.35

Rebel> Actually, I think you've pegged me quite well. Was it the cigar or the jewelry? As for the house, it isn't mine. Well, it sort of is. It's my mother's house, I grew up there, but I don't live there.
Greg Bishansky
"Never hate your enemies, it clouds your judgement." -Michael Corleone
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 11:30:49 pm EST from 75.56.245.4

Personally, I have a feeling, don't know why, but that the sow-gargoyle is a gentle, soft spoken type. She is probably a fantastic warrior, but I have a feeling that she may be a more peaceful type. It would go against her overall image of being a boar, since they are often tenacious and aggressive. I don't see why if she's single that would make her a loser or less than the others, or simply look bad. Gargoyles are a pretty rare race. She may have not found the one yet. But who knows?

Rebel said:Siren > Oh ok, my bad. Sorry. Anyway, about you. You didn't enjoy high school very much, but you probably graduated towards the top of your class. Your relationship with your mom is...interesting...I think that you either loathe her entirely, or you are very close to her. You like alternative type clothes, music, etc. You are more likely to go to Hot Topic than a department store. You like dark chocolate more than milk chocolate. You are probably more interested in social sciences and humanities type subjects than others, though that might not be what you ultimately chose / will choose. Halloween is your favorite holiday.

No, I didn't enjoy high school. But I didn't grad at the top of my class. My mother and I are close, but not extreemly. My clothes generally consist of jeans and a t-shirt, usually black. Don't know if you call that alternative. Music wise, I can go from Alice Cooper and Rob Zombie to Sarah Brightman and Enya. I like Hot Topic, but they rarely have anything that fits me. I like milk chocolate more than dark. My favorite subjects in school were English, Creative Writing, Biology. And yes Halloween is my fav holiday. You got me a little less than half.
Siren - [Click my name for my music videos!]
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 11:28:20 pm EST from 68.202.76.113

Rebel> I think that at least some of those changes were aging the characters. So maybe if, later in the comic, we get to see Broadway and Lex when they're older, those changes will be incorporated. ^..^
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 11:10:56 pm EST from 24.98.74.35

In regards to treating the boar female respectfully, I agree that that is really important. Another thing I hope is that she has a mate. It would be really unfortunate if there was finally an unconventional female gargoyle and she was single.
Rebel
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 11:09:55 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

Not posting my picture.

Siren: I think gargoyles *do* have standards of beauty, but it gets oversimplified in fandom as the notion that human-faced gargoyles are the most attractive, and this being *especially* true for females (I have a hobby of collecting fanart of beaked female characters, and several of their descriptions include reference to being self-conscious about having a beak. This is never chalked up to being influenced by humans). For instance, gargoyles with similar features might be more likely to be mated, and there would be individual preferences for certain features (i.e., "I prefer wings with spiked elbows"). But because Gargoyles have an astonishing variety of features (going to the serious fan-nitpicking, they have different nostril structures and wing-thumbs that face in different directions, on top of the more obvious wide-ranging spectrum), it really can't be treated as simple.

As I've said before, the fact that Brooklyn fancies himself a ladies' man is one of the biggest pieces of evidence that gargs aren't meant to have human standards of beauty. There's no reason that females would be *totally* excluded from this.

This wasn't directed at Rebel, but at other trends in the fanbase.

I'm not quite ready to celebrate the boar-garg yet, until we find that the character herself is treated with some respect; not made perfect, but respectfully treated. I have a strong confidence that she will be, and Greg won't have her as comic relief, or being considered butch or ugly by her fellow gargoyles.
Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream"--Shirley Jackson
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 11:05:47 pm EST from 216.36.154.204

Rebel> For the record, you got some things right, but others wrong. I'd say in your guesses you were on track about half the time, which means of course that you were statistically right where you should be for guessing. I like some country music, I don't dance nor do I like to nor can I, and I was not very involved in sports when I was younger. The rest could go either way since it is pretty ambiguous or relates to others opinions of me, which I can't say much about.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 11:02:15 pm EST from 68.184.215.167

Siren > Oh ok, my bad. Sorry. Anyway, about you. You didn't enjoy high school very much, but you probably graduated towards the top of your class. Your relationship with your mom is...interesting...I think that you either loathe her entirely, or you are very close to her. You like alternative type clothes, music, etc. You are more likely to go to Hot Topic than a department store. You like dark chocolate more than milk chocolate. You are probably more interested in social sciences and humanities type subjects than others, though that might not be what you ultimately chose / will choose. Halloween is your favorite holiday.

Matt > You don't like country music. Like Greg, you appreciate culture, arts, music, etc. You are more of a dog person than a cat person. You have several friends you are really close to, and you are a positive and uplifting person that others enjoy being around. They often come to you with their problems to talk. You like to dance. You were probably involved in sports when you were younger. You're messy, which irritates someone close to you.

L.T. Williams > Yeah, I think that's much closer to what I should have said from the beginning. It took me a while to realize what my real issue was. And anyway, about Lex…watch Future Tense again. In the first scene that Lexington appears in (but not the subsequent ones) the animators have made some very subtle changes to him (disregard the cybernetics and the scar around his eye) that make him look much less cartoony and more…"serious". I wish he'd looked more like that from the beginning.
Rebel
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 10:54:54 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

Rebel, I NEVER said you called Broadway dumb. I was just saying my general feelings and opinions on the entire discussion. Not singling out anyone. Otherwise I would have had "Rebel>" when I typed it.
Siren - [Click my name for my music videos!]
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 10:46:23 pm EST from 68.202.76.113

PGF> LOL!
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 10:41:41 pm EST from 24.98.74.35

Rebel - I think I get it. You're really only objecting to the CARTOONY way the trio were designed. And yet... again... I just feel that's your opinion. The Trio don't seem "unfinished" to me, and they don't strike me as more cartoony than the rest. (Goliath can certainly look goofy in the right situation.)

It's about how the characters are used. The trio were youthful and provided some comic relief early on, but there were hints of their serious sides even in "Awakening" and looking back, I think they're very expressive even in that first five-parter. You're correct that their characters have deepened but their looks could not. But your implication -- if not explication -- is that in hindsight the designs for the Trio should have been different to reflect the depth of personality they would eventually achieve. But I can't agree.

A character that's designed like Lex is not inherently silly. He could have been an evil little thing with that design from day one. He could have been the triumphant hero and leader from day one. He could have been the mastermind, as Future Tense suggested. (There's no huge change in his Future Tense design, once you get past the cybernetics. It's how the actions of the characters informed the animators' work that created the real change in Cyber-Lex. His face is still his face.) His personality, and our first impressions of that personality, may have informed our early view of him, and later depth may seem counter to you to his design. But not to me.

Even when Brooklyn comes back, he won't be a whole-different design. He'll just be older. That might mean taller or broader or missing a horn or whatever, but if we take him more seriously, it'll be because of what he's been through, not because of the new design. Fundamentally, I still expect he'll look like Brooklyn.
L.T. Williams
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 10:41:17 pm EST from 71.93.81.240

Goldfish: What do I think? I think you and I would get along just fine.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Hopefully, we should appreciate that given points in time are not so significant as the nature of what is impressed on the mind, and how it is retained and used." -Yes ("Remembering High the Memory")
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 10:38:46 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

Ok, fine I will do anybody that wants it. But don't get all mean when I'm wrong. Give me a little while to think.
Rebel
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 10:36:05 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

pictures> I've got pics of me on my dA page (though it's mostly for art I produce myself). Just click my name and browse. Analysis not required; I just figured that since people were sharing that I would too. ^..^
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 10:34:42 pm EST from 24.98.74.35

Ok, I am not doing any more people's pictures (unless someone is genuinely curious what assumptions I might come to, and doesn't intend to go "Ha HA! YOU'RE WRONG!" when I get it wrong). Frankly, speculating about real people makes me really uncomfortable. With fictional characters it's different.
Rebel
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 10:33:35 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

PGFish> LMAO!!!!!!
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 10:33:34 pm EST from 68.184.215.167

Rebel> This is hilarious. Tell me who I am after you do Siren. I'll even give you a headstart, you can read my page on the GargWiki with my photo.

http://gargoyles.dracandros.com/User:Matt
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 10:32:36 pm EST from 68.184.215.167

Here's Me! What do you think? ;P

http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y256/purplegoldfish/?action=view&current=pig.jpg
Purplegoldfish
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 10:24:08 pm EST from 64.148.26.148

Siren > I never said Broadway WAS dumb. In fact, I actually pointed out how intelligent he was. I also like the new boar female.

Greg > Like I said with HOE, I'm expecting to be wrong here. Nonetheless, I'll give it a shot...

You probably have a very distinctive voice. The place where you live is nicely decorated. You have some appreciation for finer culture, arts, music, literature, etc. You're probably more of a cat person than a dog person. You are probably more intelligent than many people you know, and this probably gives you some satisfaction. You are probably the kind of guy who goes to coffee shops (or similar places) with friends and discusses important issues (maybe political?). Anyway, like I said I'm probably wrong.
Rebel
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 9:59:01 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

Sorry for the double boar=sow...you know what I mean :P

And here....assume away....Now that Gargoyles finally had a fat gargoyle, I might actually be able to dress up as a canon character and not look like a fat Angela or Demona and ruin the whole image of her. Now I may have to create a sow gargoyle costume. :D

http://a540.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/14/l_0e039615a324cd0b6fbd0715e54c359b.jpg
Siren
Don't knock on Death's door. Ring his doorbell and run, he hates that.
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 9:52:31 pm EST from 68.202.76.113

As Greg would say, "You're thinking like a human."

Is the boar gargoyle beautiful? To a human, no. To another gargoyle, most likely. Ophelia is obviously beautiful to Gabriel. And she's got giant horns and a frill coming out of her head. We should remember that human perception of beauty is often one dimensional. And stereotypical. I think gargoyles tend to see the inner and outer beauty when it comes to love. But many humans see the outer beauty only. I doubt there are anti-wrinkle creams for gargoyles, now or ever. Why? Because gargoyles don't seem to be as vain as we are. Sure, I am sure there are some vain gargoyles. I have a feeling Thailog is one of them. And Brooklyn has a bit of vanity issues as well, most likely. But not to the depths of wanting surgery or botox to fit into one overall look. Gargoyles looks are far more diverse then our own. We have different skin color and facial features, but gargoyles have all together different body types. Hooves or claws? A rainbow of skin colors. Human or animal like features? Fur, feathers, scales, or skin? So I seriously doubt gargoyles have this one vision of beauty like we humans get. Some humans like blonde haired, buxom girls and some like muscular, strong men. For gargoyles, maybe they also prefer certain type gargoyles, but in the sense of beauty in the eye of the beholder, rather than what is "in" for beauty all over the gargoyle race. I doubt that in the Gargoyle's Universe they will have gargoyle supermodels that look more humanoid, but ignore the animal like ones, like Una. Again, I don't think gargoyles think that way.

About the boar gargoyle herself. I love her design and look. I love the hair. I love the fact she is big. I hope we see more of her.

On Broadway being big and dumb. He's big and naive. ALL the gargoyles were naive. ALL of them. Broadway played with a gun, that was NAIVE. Brooklyn trusted Demona and got Goliath alone with her, that was NAIVE. Lexington trusted The Pack, and nearly got him and Goliath killed, that was NAIVE.
On the dumb part alone. He was pretty damn smart when he pretended to want to help Dracon out when Elisa was doing her little acting. He had a plan, before Goliath had any idea and he did so very well.
Broadway is not dumb or stupid. He was naive like the rest of them.
Siren
Don't knock on Death's door. Ring his doorbell and run, he hates that.
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 9:46:35 pm EST from 68.202.76.113

This could be fun.

Rebel, here is me. This was taken a couple of weeks ago. Tell me about me:

http://a421.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/22/l_7f2ffcfdb96ccb1f1d16aebd8e0773cc.jpg

The woman in the picture is my cousin, just fyi.
Greg Bishansky
"Never hate your enemies, it clouds your judgement." -Michael Corleone
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 9:45:26 pm EST from 75.56.245.4

This could be fun.

Rebel, here is me. This was taken a couple of weeks ago. Tell me about me:

http://a421.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/22/l_7f2ffcfdb96ccb1f1d16aebd8e0773cc.jpg

The woman in the picture is my cousin, just fyi.
Greg Bishansky
"Never hate your enemies, it clouds your judgement." -Michael Corleone
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 9:45:26 pm EST from 75.56.245.4

Incivis >

"If most of the "important" and "serious" gargoyles seem to be hominid in appearance, is that because of gargoyle society, or some unconscious bias on the part of the writers/character designers? Does it make any sense at all for gargoyles to judge their beauty as humans would (i.e. a human dealing with gargoyles would assume that the more humanoid ones are considered the most attractive by their own kind, but do the gargs feel that way?)"

I doubt they do. Personally, I've often looked at "furry" art, and I can still easily find those renderings attractive, and I can see how one could easily find non-humanoid looking characters attractive. I think it's more likely to be a bias on the part of the creators, and that's part of what bugs me.

"I just took issue with the idea that the designs of the Trio (an all other gargs with snouts, tusks, beaks, etc.) are *inherently* more comic, which seems unrealistic if you look at the show within its own context. Why would there be a reason for gargoyles to assume that?"

It's not merely the presence of snouts, tusks, beaks, etc., or even a character being overweight. It's something else. For example, the London clan gargoyles don't seem comical at all to me, and they're very non-human. Zafiro, despite being very non-human, also doesn't seem comical. Even the new female character in #7 doesn't seem comical. It's more than just the presence of non-human traits...that alone isn't the issue (I think I'm starting to realize what I've been trying to voice all along, but I still don't quite have words for it). It's the general "cartooniness" of a character, relative to other characters. It's how much he or she conforms to all-too-common physical archetypes. It's...grrrr, I'm still not sure what it is. Just something about the way many of the characters are designed seems "off" somehow, relative to their leaders (though I'm not sure if my dissatisfaction is that they don't look more like their leaders, or their leaders don't look more like them...I think I've gone and confused myself).
Rebel
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 9:35:22 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

Arguably, human beauty should be a subconscious part of this discussion, because we're talking about gargoyles.

If most of the "important" and "serious" gargoyles seem to be hominid in appearance, is that because of gargoyle society, or some unconscious bias on the part of the writers/character designers? Does it make any sense at all for gargoyles to judge their beauty as humans would (i.e. a human dealing with gargoyles would assume that the more humanoid ones are considered the most attractive by their own kind, but do the gargs feel that way?)

I just took issue with the idea that the designs of the Trio (an all other gargs with snouts, tusks, beaks, etc.) are *inherently* more comic, which seems unrealistic if you look at the show within its own context. Why would there be a reason for gargoyles to assume that?

Or indeed, viewers? When there are plenty of nonhuman characters in animation with long muzzles who can talk and are taken serioiusly (just start with the dragons)

It's like...there are less female gargoyle characters than males. Are we to assume that gargoyle gender ratios are "naturally" like that, or that it's just how it appears because of real-world issues affecting a television series?
Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream"--Shirley Jackson
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 9:20:37 pm EST from 216.36.154.204

Such an intense conversation...

All I'm going to add is this...

Looks can be deceiving... ;)
The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>^^)> The DVDs are awesome!
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 9:17:50 pm EST from 72.199.225.9

**Looks at current topic**

Hmmm . . . .

(MEANWHILE, by the cookie table . . . )

Hey, Ed and DPH, here's my guesses for the 2008 Contest:

Section A:

1. Four - Manhattan, London, Labyrinth, Ishimura
2. YES - Merlin
3. North America, Europe, Asia,
4. YES, Griff, Arthur and let's say Castaway too.
5. YES, and I'll guess the Weird Sisters (guess I'd just want to see them back)

Section B:

6. YES
7. Hmm, NO
8. YES
9. YES
10. Six times
11. YES
12. YES
13. YES
14. NO
15. Thrice
16. YES
17. YES
18. YES
19. NO
20. YES

Section C:

21.

BG #2 - Yama
#8 - NEW CHARACTERS, Macbeth, Arthur, Lex, Hudson
BG #3 - Hunter
#9 - NEW CHARACTERS, Xanatos, Thailog, Lex, Hudson, Griff
BG #4 - Fang
#10 - Brooklyn, NEW CHARACTERS
BG #5 - Dingo
#11 - Brooklyn
BG #6 - Matrix, Yama, Hunter, Fang, Dingo
#12 - NEW CHARACTERS, full Manhattan Clan, Xanatos, Fox, Alex, Owen
P#1 - Arthur, Griff

22 & 23.

BG #2 - Yama/Hunter
#8 - Shari/Arthur
BG #3 - Matrix/Dingo
#9 - Macbeth/Lex
BG #4 - NEW CHARACTER/NEW CHARACTER
#10 - Goliath/Constantine
BG #5 - Hunter/NEW CHARACTER
#11 - Brooklyn/Brooklyn
BG #6 - Fang/Yama
#12 - NEW CHARACTER/Goliath
P#1 - NEW CHARACTER/Griff

TIE-BREAKER: 18

(Goes off to bake some more cookies . . . .)
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 9:09:12 pm EST from 70.162.221.121

AAAAAH SO MANY PEOPLE!!!

Some of you have misinterpreted my comments. I'm not saying that you can tell what a real life person's personality is like by how they look. That's not it at all. I'm not even saying that being overweight alone makes someone goofy, or makes them look goofy.

Second of all...if you'll read my original post, I NEVER included the London clan or the Mayan clan in my complaint. I tried to address Zafiro because some people mentioned him, but they were honestly never part of my gripe to begin with.

Thirdly, all of you should read up on the Golden Ratio in human bodies and in nature, and the science of beauty, to get an idea of what I'm talking about. It's depressing, but enlightening. Beauty is partially influenced by cultural norms, and partly influenced by societal conditions (i.e. HOE's example of heavier women being popular a long time ago...back then if you were heavy and pale, it meant you were rich, could afford lots of food, and didn't have to go outside to work. Now the "ideal" is thin and tan, because it means wealth once again, because you have time to exercise, money to afford healthy food, and money to go to the beach and get a tan, or at least go to the tanning bed). However, a significant portion of our notions of beauty are innate. As a quick example, infants will spend more time gazing at attractive faces than unattractive ones.

Fourthly, just look at the trio, compared to Goliath, or Kai, or Gabriel. Look how "cartoony" they look. Think about stereotypes, and how cartoons often feature characters of the same physical archetype as them, and what stereotypical personalities are often associated with such archetypes (and how the trio characters, to some extent, reflect those stereotypes, but at the same time are very deep characters). Apparently I'm not doing a good job at all of explaining what I mean, so I'm not going to keep repeating myself over and over...it just looks to me like the trio, as well as many members of other clans, aren't "finished". They're a step behind their leaders in the development of their designs. They look more like they belong in a typical comedy series, not a series as serious as gargoyles.

Fifthly, I NEVER said I wanted the Gargoyles character designs to be more "homogeneous". If you've read that into my responses, that's your fault, not mine.

Sixthly, bluewyvern, you're kind of tapping into the vein that I am. The trio, as characters, deserved more than to be just comic relief. At the beginning that's what they were, but as time passed, their personalities evolved, but their designs obviously couldn't. And yes...I also think Brooklyn will become one of the "serious" ones post-Timedance.

Seventhly, HOE, like I said, I'm not saying you can tell much about a real life person's personality by how they look. But with cartoons, the characters are deliberately designed, so they ought to reflect themselves somewhat. Anyway, back to you...if I had to take a guess, I'd say you are the kind of person who considers yourself an "outsider" to most of society. You probably don't much appreciate mainstream pop culture. You probably have a sarcastic, albeit amusing, sense of humor around your friends. Your grades are probably average or maybe above, but I bet you don't try very hard. You might not get along very well with at least one of your parents. Somehow I think your first vehicle was probably something that sorta disappointed you, at least compared to what people around you had.

*doubts very much that any of her "predictions" were right, but hopes they are at least amusing*
Rebel
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 8:57:27 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

Wow. Matt's last post makes me feel like experimenting.

Rebel: Here I am.

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q261/RJVanSchaick/WallopfBeers2.jpg

Tell me, what conclusions do you draw about who I am from this? ( ;
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Hopefully, we should appreciate that given points in time are not so significant as the nature of what is impressed on the mind, and how it is retained and used." -Yes ("Remembering High the Memory")
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 8:42:30 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

I do wish Broadway could be less "big, dumb", but I think the fact that his character has much more nuance and depth is a strength of the show, not a weakness. Appearances aren't everything. I think his weight (but NOT his more "grotesque" features) make him a less attractive gargoyle, but Angela chose him because of his personality. I think that's part of what gets to Brook so much. He knows he's more attractive -- he certainly seems to think of himself as a stud -- yet he still somehow lost to his "big, dumb" rookery brother.

Coming at this from another angle, I don't think it's an accident that the Trio are the least human-looking. The "serious" gargoyles are much more humanesque (Goliath, Demona, Hudson), but the Trio were conceived as comic relief...even in the dramatic series. Just look how they're used in "Awakening". But they did grow.

If "Future Tense" is any indication, though, I think Brooklyn's going to come back looking far more like one of the "serious" ones. He'll resemble a Goliath more than a Lex. So...actually, I'm not even sure what point that supports. But there you go.

One last thing...I rejected it, but for a while I entertained the idea of an unspoken class of Gargoyle
"elites", which would include the clan's strongest warriors and leaders. Goliath, Demona and Hudson belonged to it, and probably Othello and Desdemona, but not Iago. Angela did, by descent, but not Broadway. Gabriel was one. Kai was definitely one, and maybe Yama. Zaphiro, probably. Maybe Turquesa. Not Jade. Una and Leo, maybe Griff, maybe not. Sampson, the clan's future leader who would "resemble Goliath", definitely. The Trio and all the inhuman grotesques who flit through the background of Wyvern and Avalon, and Demona's scrappy clan, never.

Big problem for Goliath when it's time to choose a second -- the only other elite around is too old and refuses the job.

I wasn't going to bring this idea up, but it certainly seems to dovetail with the topic at hand. Remember that it was never serious, though, just some idle musings.
bluewyvern
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 8:26:27 pm EST from 69.112.108.43

Rebel: So you're saying that fat and unattractive = permanent stupidity

That's like saying every skinny person with glasses is a super smart nerd.
I don't understand your reasoning here. You expect the designs to "reflect" the characters of the trio, yet you're complaining that the designs of the leaders reflect their characters (I for one kind of think Una's design is ugly, and Zafiro is a snake...)

I for one think it's extremely refreshing to see the "fatass" character, as you say, evolve the way he did. Broadway started out a little dumb, but his character grew through the episodes, and he's shown great maturity. And hey, he got the girl. I actually find him more attractive than Brooklyn with his beak.

And Hudson was the leader before Goliath-he's overweight and has an overbite.
Yeah Gargoyles does follow some of the cliches, but compared to most other shows out there it breaks the mold.
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 8:21:18 pm EST from 64.148.26.148

HoE> True. People nowadays don't get how manatees were mistaken for beautiful mermaids, because hefty ladies aren't beautiful at the moment.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 8:11:02 pm EST from 24.98.74.35

*Reads Rebel's posts*

*Jaw drops*

Umm, Rebel, what you are saying is, IMHO, really, really bad.

I mean, basically you are saying that if I send you a picture of myself, you'll be able to tell all about me based on my appearance.

That is ludicrous. The Trio and Golith look the way they do because they hatched that way. They are who they are because that is how they are.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 8:09:35 pm EST from 68.184.215.167

bluewyvern> Cuteness, to me, has mostly to do with facial features (unless it's referring to childlike body form/proportions), and that's what I was using to strike those girls from the CMG ranks. You're free to disagree with me though; their figures certainly don't disqualify them. -..^
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 8:09:21 pm EST from 24.98.74.35

Actually, the ideal human proportions have varied over time. Used to be full-figured was desirable, because if you were able to eat well enough to have some extra girth, that implied you were wealthy and well-off.

And if today's celebrities are any indication, being thin means you're batshit-crazy. ( ;
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Hopefully, we should appreciate that given points in time are not so significant as the nature of what is impressed on the mind, and how it is retained and used." -Yes ("Remembering High the Memory")
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 8:07:18 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

I knew animals preferred symmetry, but I didn't realize proportion was involved.

We know what the ideal human proportions are... but what would ideal gargoyle proportions be? How would someone find that out?
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 7:57:53 pm EST from 24.98.74.35

Rebel - No offense, but you seem kinda all over the map to me. I think the problem is you're taking opinions of yours and STATING them as facts, despite the "IMO"s your attaching to innoculate yourself. YOU feel Brooklyn is better looking than Broadway. But, personally, I disagree. (And Angela perhaps agrees with me.) So it's hardly a GIVEN that the better looking guy is in line for leadership.

You acknowledge Jade clearly looks more human than Zafiro -- and thus by a portion of your theory should be the leader -- but YOU feel Zafiro is better looking than Jade and then use that OPINION to justify your premise that the leaders were all handsome. The logic just doesn't track for me.

I I think we were just presented with a mixture of male physical types when the show launched. Did the big leader hero look like a big leader hero? Yeah. But give 'em a break. Goliath ONLY looks more human relative to the others. It's not like he ACTUALLY looks human. And whether or not you think he's the most handsome is again, just a matter of opinion. (Though in this case, you probably have Elisa on your side.) In a normal show, Goliath would be the villain and David "Bruce Wayne" Xanatos would be the hero, so it still feels more enlightened to me than most series. Over time, each of the other four characters (Brooklyn, Lexington, Broadway, Hudson) were given depth so that HOPEFULLY they ALL seem attractive to us. That worked for me anyway. They all seem pretty handsome to me now. (I seriously don't recognize the Broadway you describe at all.) In fact all the gargoyles we've met, from Griff to Obsidiana to Kai to Demona's second to Ophelia to the two new gargoyles at the end of issue 7 have become extremely attractive to me. Granted, that's just MY opinion. But I'm not extrapolating my opinion to make some generalization about how characters look are affecting or reflecting their political roles.

And I definitely wouldn't want to see a more ... homogenous approach to designs.
L.T. Williams
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 7:56:32 pm EST from 71.93.81.240

I agree with the "cute monster girl" problem, to a point. (Ophelia and certainly the Mayan females don't count, btw -- they're all clearly knockouts, at least from the forehead down if their headgear doesn't appeal to you. They certainly have nothing on some of the especially grotesque males we glimpse in the background at Wyvern.) I was delighted to see the new boar-goyle and took her appearance as evidence that the issue was being addressed. (Speaking of the original comedy proposal, it *did* feature an "un-cute" monster girl who was overweight -- Broadway's prototype, Coco. I wonder if this new gal draws any inspiration from her.)

Gore> Pdfs would be nice, too, but I was definitely thinking of a webpage, with links to purchase things and explore the fan sites. If you want to redo the main page, that would definitely work.
bluewyvern
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 7:51:59 pm EST from 69.112.108.43

Sorry for the double post, but:

Rebel: <So, we know Greg's willing to have minor female characters who we won't see often look that way, but what about major, recurring female characters?>

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's safe to assume that we're going to see more of Tom's mother in upcoming issues, when Brooklyn goes back in time. And we had also seen her a few times in past episodes of Gargoyles.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Hopefully, we should appreciate that given points in time are not so significant as the nature of what is impressed on the mind, and how it is retained and used." -Yes ("Remembering High the Memory")
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 7:49:56 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

Rebel: Maybe the lesson here is that society puts too much emphasis on appearance, and appearance shouldn't be a basis of assumptions about what's underneath the surface.

I enjoy tea and coffee, and I don't use whitening products, because I don't feel I need to conform to an image of attractiveness that Hollywood and Madison Avenue tell me I must conform to. If anyone made assumptions about my personality based upon the stains on my teeth, without talking to me first, then fine, I don't want to know that person.

No offense to anyone here who owns a whitening tray, just my own personal belief. I just wish I could provide a better example, but I'm 6'2" and weight 145.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Hopefully, we should appreciate that given points in time are not so significant as the nature of what is impressed on the mind, and how it is retained and used." -Yes ("Remembering High the Memory")
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 7:45:05 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

Rebel, you're making me look bad :); I was only thinking about seeing females with different faces in canon (the London Clan isn't a big leap, since they apparently all have to have muzzles anyway, but the sow gargoyle is still cool), then you go and point out other problems.

But I really disagree with the idea that there's a dissonance between how the Trio look and how they're presented. That seems like applying human standards of beauty and the related physical associations to gargoyles. Given that they've always had, say, beaks, snouts, protruding jaws, varying sizes, etc., gargoyles themselves probably wouldn't associate these features with any particular negative traits because these are "the norm" as much as hominid faces. Or if they did peg certain traits to facial features, it wouldn't just be nonhumanoid = goofy.
Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream"--Shirley Jackson
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 7:42:59 pm EST from 216.36.154.204

Patrick > That's just it. Beauty is largely *not* subjective. Perceptions of beauty are somewhat culturally influenced, but largely beauty all comes down to being in the right proportions, namely, The Golden Ratio. Some people have certain preferences and such, for example, someone might prefer blue-eyed blondes, but the approximate facial and bodily proportions that make someone be considered "beautiful" are pretty much the same. The Golden Ratio applies to all of nature. Generally, if something is in the Golden Ratio, it is "fitter" for survival, which is probably why notions of beauty have evolved the way they have. I doubt Gargoyles are exempt from this.
Rebel
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 7:41:55 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

All this talk reminds me. Judging from #7, it seems Greg is more than willing to include female characters who aren't conventionally attractive. However, those this new female will probably be in 8 and 9, she probably won't continually reappear in the comic, the same way a character like Angela or Elisa will. So, we know Greg's willing to have minor female characters who we won't see often look that way, but what about major, recurring female characters? I'm betting Katana will be thin, attractive, and humanoid, just like Angela, Demona, and Coldfire.
Rebel
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 7:34:41 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

Posting again to add one more thing. Rebel, you are making subjective judgments based on human standards of beauty. We really have little to go on in determining what gargoyles find attractive. Based on the statement that Brooklyn is the "best looking" of the trio, and Angela is a smoking hottie, they should have ended up together, right? :P
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"There are three types of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 7:33:21 pm EST from 76.241.154.165

Whether the topic is the physical appearance of female gargoyles or the leaders of gargoyle clans, a sample consisting of only three individuals is not sufficiently large enough to draw any meaningful inferences. If I telephone three people at random and find out that each of them plans to vote for Hillary Clinton in the next election, I'd be misleading you with poorly prepared statistics by saying that 100% of the people polled support Clinton for President.

168 days left until The Gathering 2008 in Chicago, Illinois!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"There are three types of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 7:29:11 pm EST from 76.241.154.165

Matt > "Okay, Brooklyn would become leader. He has a beak and isn't very "human-looking" and while he is strong, Broadway is probably stronger, so he wouldn't be strongest in the Clan."

Definitely true. However, of the trio, Brooklyn is arguably the most handsome despite being the least human-looking.

"Zafiro and Una are the the leaders of their clans and they certainly don't fit your theory. Now, neither of them was explicitly identified as leader, but neither is anyone else. And Greg has confirmed it."

True, once again. But of the males, Zafiro was more handsome than Jade (imo), despite being less human-looking. Attractiveness seems to take precedent over how human a character looks, but they often go together.

"Greg has had a lot of time to think about things and I'm sure he is going to show more diversity in all forms."

I agree.


My point is, just WHY are so many of the leaders have so many of the following traits (human-looking, attractive, physically imposing) whereas many of their clan members only have a few of these traits, or sometimes none? It just seems far too "convenient" to me.

Kerry > I'm not saying more of them should look human. It's just odd which ones do...

Anybody > My sentiments in regards to the trio, are that the scope and depth of the series basically outgrew their designs. They're perfectly fine for a comedy series, but they don't look like characters with depth, as appropriate to a dramatic series.

Take Broadway, since he provides the most striking example. He's overweight, he has a monkey face, big round goofy looking eyes, a weird nose, huge ears, and a big underbite. On looking at him for the first time, your average person would probably conclude that he is an idiot preoccupied totally with eating. The voice acting behind his character (in all episodes accept "Future Tense") enhances this. And, in the first few episodes of the first season, that's basically what he is. But then, as time passes, he starts to become a deeper character. We realize that he's actually very intelligent. He's got a lot of emotional intelligence too, and he's very empathetic. He's sensitive, and thoughtful, and good at solving mysteries. He's really a very cool character. And when I look at his design, I think "wtf". Because they made him look like a dumb, depth-less fatass. I'm not saying they shouldn't make him overweight; I'm not saying there's anything wrong with him having a non-human face...it's just, does he HAVE to be so damn stupid looking and (compared to characters like Goliath and Brooklyn) unnattractive? His design was fine for the (mostly comedic) character that he was in the first few episodes, but as time passed by and he became a deeper character, his design became less and less adequate. His character design is that of a one-dimensional character, yet his personality is not at all like that. Goliath, on the other hand, has a design perfectly suited to his personality. As a character, Goliath has depth and intelligence, and his design is befitting of that. I'm not really sure what I'm trying to express here, but I guess it's basically that Goliath (and many other clan leaders) all have designs befitting of dramatic characters with depth, and the trio (and some other clan members of other clans...but *especially* the trio) have designs befitting one-dimensional comedic characters, when in fact their personalities may be very well-rounded. This is one aspect of the series that kinda disappointed me. I wish that the personalities and futures of the trio (as well as some other characters) had been fleshed out a little more in the pre-production phase, and that these characters had been given designs a little more adequate for their multi-dimensional personalities. Compared to other characters, they almost look like throwaways.

Does this make sense at all?
Rebel
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 7:25:05 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

Well, let's say Goliath died. Alright, I know he isn't going to just yet, but lets say he died about where we are in the comic. Okay, Brooklyn would become leader. He has a beak and isn't very "human-looking" and while he is strong, Broadway is probably stronger, so he wouldn't be strongest in the Clan.

Rebel, I get what you are saying. I can see your point. But at the same time in the show it sure wasn't that way always. Zafiro and Una are the the leaders of their clans and they certainly don't fit your theory. Now, neither of them was explicitly identified as leader, but neither is anyone else. And Greg has confirmed it.

And with the comic, I feel Greg has more slack and can do a bit more. "Monster loving wh-", "You Bastard!" and the female boar-like London Clan member are three things I don't think we'd ever see or hear in the TV series. Greg has had a lot of time to think about things and I'm sure he is going to show more diversity in all forms.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 6:56:35 pm EST from 68.184.215.167

Rebel> Not sure why more gargoyles should be human-looking...
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 6:33:19 pm EST from 24.98.74.35

The lack of diversity amongst the female characters bugs me, but there's something that bugs me even more.

This (as far as I can tell so far) applies for at least the Manhattan/Wyvern clan, the Avalon clan, and the Ishimuran clan. The leaders are all impressively-built, handsome, and very human-looking, whereas the various clan members are (more often than not) less physically impressive, less human-looking, and often are unattractive or have a more comical than serious appearance.

Take the Manhattan clan as an example. Goliath is big, handsome, and very human-looking. Lex is tiny, more apish than human, and cute, but not really handsome. Brooklyn is sorta attractive in his own weird way, but he's physically unimpressive for the most part and he doesn't look at all human. Broadway is somewhat physically impressive, but again more apish than human and very unattractive (not only is he overweight, but he also has that "dopey" look that artists all too often pair with overweight characters). Hudson is impressive...he's semi-human looking, but it's difficult to make a call about how "attractive" he is because we don't know what he looked like when he was younger, whether he had the same build he has now, etc.

In short, I guess I just feel like Greg and his team should have taken the Manhattan clan's character designs one step further. It seems to me like the other members of the clan (especially the trio), besides Goliath, are all sorta still stuck in the 'comedy' phase of development as opposed to having character designs befitting a more dramatic show. I'm not saying they should all look like Goliath...that would be really boring. I just think they should look more like serious, dramatic characters as well, not comedic characters.
Rebel
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 5:07:27 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

Kerry? Couldn't have said it better myself.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 4:44:35 pm EST from 68.184.215.167

Incisivis> I would venture to say that there are females on the World Tour that I would not put into the CMG category. The crests on the Mayan females, not to mention Ophelia's dinosaurish features, are not "cute." The new London female is even farther afield, having both a snout and a fuller figure (a trait which I hope more female characters in the future share). There are also plenty of males that stand erect (in London and Ishimura, as well as Zafiro); posture seems to depend on situation and/or the particular artists involved in an episode.

That said, of the females shown to audiences so far, there are more thin-waisted ones than not, and the females hardly ever have snouts, beaks, big chins, long noses, large fangs, or monkeyish/bulldog faces. I think there's a seed of truth in the criticism, but hopefully the comic will do a lot to remedy that.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 4:11:41 pm EST from 199.38.51.134

Another topic:

From the tvtropes.org page http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CuteMonsterGirl

"The titular characters in Gargoyles appear to be a species where the women are all wasp-waisted, busty Cute Monster Girls with spikey hair and Cute Fangs while the males are predominantly hunched, semi-humans with mouthes full of fangs. (Goliath is a lot more human looking, but is the exception rather than the rule among male Gargoyles.)"

Now, I'm usually the first to complain about the Cute Monster Girl syndrome (where females of the same nonhuman species more resemble attractive humans than the males do), but I think this is being a *little* harsh on Gargoyles, and could come up with many reasons to dispute it, but the biggest ones are that there are less female gargoyls shown, and three of the most prominent ones are all interrelated (Demona, Angela, Delilah), and *all* non-beast gargoyles are generally more "human" in appearance.

I guess an editor can get that impression by looking at the original Big Six of humanoid gargoyles (Brox obviously excluded); it's the same mistake I made when I was twelve.

Certainly I'd love to see more visual diversity among female gargoyle characters, especially beaked females in canon, but things aren't as dire as all that.

Related to that, I find it irritating when gargoyles in fanfic have human standards of beauty, where humanoid gargoyles are assumed to be considered the most attractive among their race. It seems really off, because we've seen pairings between gargoyles with different structures, and it's too much to assume that "humanoid" is considered the default attractive when the other face types have been around just as long. And that would apply equally to males and females.

Thoughts?
Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream"--Shirley Jackson
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 3:33:46 pm EST from 216.36.154.204

Phil> Great review and analysis. I didn't really catch it before, but the way the storytelling worked for issue 7 is just as you said. It gave the readers what they needed to know. I especially liked the back to back scenes that added some weight to Elisa's comment.
Asatira
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 12:12:23 pm EST from 131.204.97.10

bluewyvern> interesting idea. i've been in need of a redesign on the index page of s8/gargoyles for a while. maybe i could turn it into something like that with links to places both here on s8 and offsite. or would it be more effective if it were something in the form of a PDF; something you could even print out as a sort of flyer?

"furry business"> hey, no worries. each person will take something different away from the show. be it shakespeare, new york city, sci-fi, magick, etc. that's what makes the show especially nice is the numerous themes that run throughout the show, unlike most other shows where different themes appear only as single episodes. some themes may be intentional and others may be unintentional. doesn't matter. we all find our own piece to grab on to and enjoy. For example, Angela's midriff.
Gorebash
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 11:14:17 am EST from 207.206.236.203

Phil> Telling a story using methods other than chronology has worked in the past for books within a series (where the books tell a story chronologically, but the books themselves are out of order relative to one another, such as in the Chronicles of Narnia and Dragonriders of Pern) and for movies (Memento told a story pretty much backward chronologically). Perhaps this is the first time a comic has done it, and perhaps not, but most of us don't seem to be avid comic readers, so this is the first time we've experienced it in this medium.

I'm definitely glad it works just as well for Gargoyle as it's worked for others. Sure beats being dragged by the nose the whole time as has happened elsewhere. LOL Thankfully, Greg knows we have brains and gives us the chance to use them. ^..^
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 10:23:32 am EST from 199.38.51.134

Tony> See, the thing is, it's not an ancient comic. DV actually has a new Captain Carrot miniseries out right now, which I assume is what this person is referring to.

It might be intended as a joke, but we've had stranger questions and I don't quite get the humor.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 10:18:09 am EST from 209.6.248.33

Demonskrye> I believe that Kchishol1970's post was an attempt at humor while praising Greg Weisman's subject matter. If the question was worded any other way, then Greg would have probably responded with a sarcastic funny remark. But since there is an esoteric reference to an ancient comic and an endearing compliment in Kchishol1970's post, it probably made Greg just stare at the screen and type, "Uh...sure." which when I pictured him doing that I laughed out loud. Image him getting asked that bizarre question in person! Hilarious!

Phil> Nice review and observations! Maybe the queue will open around the 23rd, but I don't know.
The Gargoyles Pulse(Anthony Tini)
...updated Mondays afternoon/early evening
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 10:11:37 am EST from 159.240.11.254

I've been meaning to do this for a while, but never got around to it. But since I was procrastinating last night, here's my review of "The Rock." Many people have already commented, so I'm going to delve into something that hasn't been gone into in-depth: the non-linear structure.

When I first read the story, I didn't get the point of not telling it chronologically. I enjoyed the issue and thought it might be the best one yet, but the structure was distracting and kept me from fully getting into it. However, having faith in Greg Weisman's skills, I analyzed the issue and have come to the conclusion that Greg is a creative genius. Basically, the story is told in order, not chronologically, but logically, revealing to the readers what they need to know as they need to know it, and not before.

****SPOILERS****

The first few pages serve two purposes: 1) to warn you right up front about the structure of the story, and 2) to hook you like a barbed fishing hook. By the end of page two you can't put the book down even if you wanted to. But by the end of page three, you're starting to wonder how this all fits together. What does Jacob's stone have to do with anything? Macbeth answers on the next page. "It's called the Stone of Destiny."

Page four begins the meat of the story. Macbeth asks the gargoyles to help protect the Stone. There's a one-panel flashback to illustrate his connection to the Stone. Everything progresses chronologically for a few pages until...

There break in the story for travel time, so page seven introduces the villain of the story. Xanatos is aware of what's going on, but he's unconcerned. We see that he's in London with his family. And speaking of family...

Gathelus and Scota are introduced and the backstory of the Stone progresses. By the end of the page, Scota is obviously pregnant. And speaking of pregnant...

Page nine advances some (not just one, but several) subplots from previous stories. Dr. Sato's presence emphasizes that the mutates are creatures of biology, and not magic. And speaking of biology...

The main story continues. We're reminded that gargoyles are biological creatures; they suffer from jetlag. Macbeth says there are ten days until the Stone is moved, which prompts a flashback to Gathelus and Scota moving the Stone. Then ten days later, Hudson and Lex are on the job.

By this time we're wondering, where are the others? Page thirteen gives us an answer while advancing another subplot and setting up future Clan-Building.

Back to the main story again on page fourteen. Although everything looks secure, Macbeth's not so confident, and we see another one-panel flashback to illustrate why and to reinforce his connection to the Stone.

There's another break in the action of the main story, so it's a good time for Shari to take up another page and provide more backstory. But after that we're back to London. Hudson asks, "Who exactly are we expecting?" And the answer is given.

The villain part of the story is filled in with Xanatos, Coyote, and Coldsteel. At this point, some newbies might ask, who is this "Coldsteel"? Shari is right there to answer on the next page and at the same time set up some more future Clan-Building. "It's really a timeless love story..."

Which leads right into Goliath and Elisa. They've got a beautiful scene, and since Goliath doesn't vocalize everything that's in his heart we're treated to a flashback of a happily expectant couple to say what he left unsaid. He and Elisa give in to true love, but...

Sometimes true love ends in tragedy. Gathelus dies, and Scota's life crumbles. Her sons carry on.

That almost wraps up the story. The only thing left is to return to Macbeth and the main plot to set up the cliffhanger that will bring us all back in two months. Make that "cliffhangers, plural," since Macbeth and Arthur would have been cliffhanger enough. But Greg doubles the suspense by bringing in the London Clan, too. Plus there are the teases back on page two that leave us anticipating more.

****END SPOILERS****

The non-linear structure is fascinating to me. Although everything seems to jump around randomly, each panel and page logically connects to the ones around it in thought or theme, if not chronology. That's not to say I'd want every issue to be like this; it takes a lot of thought and study to understand it all. But as an experimental or occasional format, there's a lot to like.

And before I close, a few words about Shari. Somehow I think that if Greg had worked on season three back in 1996, Shari would not exist as we know her. But with a ten-year gap there's a lot of backstory to exposit, and I have seen too many times when characters awkwardly discuss things they already know just to inform the reader or viewer. So introducing a storyteller like Shari and connecting her to Thailog (who was in a surprisingly few episodes) is such an elegant solution to that problem. And of course Greg doesn't just abandon her in her expository role; there's a lot more to her than that.

Anyway, there's my ramble, better late than never. Too bad Ask Greg is closed.
Phil - [p1anderson at go dot com]
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 9:49:03 am EST from 134.215.196.82

Sorry to double post, but I forgot something that I wanted to mention. Does anyone know what this is all about?

Kchishol1970 writes...

First I want to thank you, after getting upset at how DC is treating Captain Carrot at the end of their latest mini-series, it is a joy to see someone "mainstream" create some beautiful furry business in their own comic as issue #7 shows. Thank you for getting an artist who understands that beauty.

Case in point, Maggie has never been more beautiful then when she's snuggling with Derek upon learning she is pregnant. In fact, it looks like she's purring. Is that a correct assumption?

Greg responds...

Uh... sure.

I sincerely doubt that there was a purposeful attempt on the part of Greg or Mr. Hedgecock to insert some "beautiful furry business" into the comic just for its own sake. What I'm wondering though, is if anyone knows what's going on with the new DC Captain Carrot miniseries that would have this person so upset? Anyways, I can't figure out how it makes an ounce of difference whether Maggie purrs or not, but I guess a lot of people would say it doesn't make a ton of difference whether gargoyle beasts are monogamous or not (part of my upcoming question), so who am I to say anything?
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 9:18:19 am EST from 209.6.248.33

GargWiki Game> I've also heard of people playing this in groups on Wikipedia and making it a race to see who can get to a target article the fastest. Of course, it's a lot easier to do on GargWiki, since everything is already connected by virtue of being in the general "Gargoyles storyline, whereas on Wikipedia, you may be stuck trying to get from Mary Queen of Scotts to the Hoover Dam.

If I'm feeling bored but want to be semi productive, I used the random page feature to find an article that needs a bit of editing.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 9:12:29 am EST from 209.6.248.33

Matt> I loved Foxxy Love. Great character.

Thanks for the link, too. Cover looks badass.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 4:28:01 am EST from 76.247.60.189

Asatire> "Yeah, I liked Foxxy Love from "Drawn Together," as she was the most sane of the group (which really isn't saying much about her sanity either)."

When talking about Foxxy, I think Wooldor said it best:
"...she's the only one in the house who isn't 'completely' retarded".
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 1:13:19 am EST from 68.184.215.167

Phil> You've given me yet another online time killer and procrastination fodder.

Matt> Yeah, I liked Foxxy Love from "Drawn Together," as she was the most sane of the group (which really isn't saying much about her sanity either). I really like the work Cree Summer has done over the years. I practically grew up watching her on "A Different World," loved her Elmyra from "Tiny Toons," as well as Kida from "Atlantis." She's done a lot of work over the years, it's kinda fun to find it. I did not know Rainbow Francks, but I can see some similarity. I'm looking forward to how well she does Blackarachnia for the new TF series (there was a brief scene with her in the premiere, but not really enough. And I'm still holding out final opinion on the series as a whole until more episodes air).
Asatira
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 12:42:34 am EST from 68.119.80.181

Arkansas Mezzo> Hmmmm.... So, who has the sexiest body Down Under?

LOL
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Fri, Jan 11, 2008 12:21:50 am EST from 68.184.215.167

Ntripy> Thanks - now I can see the IP's. Not that I really want to ... it doesn't really bother me anymore. But at least now I know I'm not blind. :) (Or the sole occupant of a magical world where IP addresses and cheap car repairs don't exist ...)

Hooray for the #10 cover! Timedancer, here we come.

bluwyvern> Very interesting voice imaginings - you would think, being a musician, I would naturally think about those things - you know, sound and all :) - but surprisingly I haven't thought about it at all before now. I can definitely hear Shari with with some darker undertones ... kind of a torchy, smoker's voice. I'll have to think about the rest. But the Tasmanian Tiger, oddly enough, I do have a voice for - I imagine him with a kind of nasal tenor, but that's probably just because I find him annoying, and who's more annoying than a tenor?

I just made a remarkable discovery. (Okay, maybe not that remarkable.) I used to catch up on comments by scrolling down the page till I got to the part I had already read, and then continuing up until the comments ran out. But I've discovered that starting at the top and going down, in reverse historical sequence, is actually a lot more fun. I can see how reading the answer before the question would be a cool game ....

So maybe I can start us off - Answer: The Tasmanian Tiger. (Sorry - he's stuck in my head now! Gad, leave me alone, with your annoying, nasal voice!)
Arkansas Mezzo - [arkansasmezzo at gmail dot com]
Kdo v smutku m&#367;že zazpívat, / ten nezhynul, ten žije, ten žije! (Whoever in sorrow is able to sing / that one did not die, that one lives, that one lives!) -- Adolf Heyduk, _Ciganské melodie_
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 11:13:51 pm EST from 206.255.79.132

Phil> OMG! I play that game all the time, I swear. That is hilarious!
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 10:21:22 pm EST from 68.184.215.167

Well, I've got things to do, but I don't feel like doing them, so I've been procrastinating and discovered a fun little game to play over at the GargWiki (http://gargoyles.dracandros.com/). Here's how it works: Click on "random page," make a mental note of the page, and click "random page" again. Then using the links in the articles, try to get from the second page back to the first page. (It's kinda like that Kevin Bacon game, but better.)
Here's an example: The first random page is "Cauldron of Life" and the second is "Coldsteel." (This is an easy one.) So from "Coldsteel" go to "Coyote," and from "Coyote" to "Cauldron of Life" and you're there in two steps.
Some are more challenging than others (like "Cu Chullain" to "Zafiro (2198)"). And for an extra challenge, try to avoid using the episode guide and main characters like Goliath.
Phil - [p1anderson at go dot com]
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 9:35:44 pm EST from 69.221.238.228

Okay, let's get into this. My belated comic rambles: #1-2, "Nightwatch" and "The Journey". Many of you have said most of this before...still, my turn.

My first impression is I really like the art. Then, as we see the gargoyles, some of the off-model stuff starts to get me, particularly Goliath (in #7 he's still doing those short, beefy arms and meaty hands that especially bother me)...still, Hedgecock is really good, and he's picking up gargoyles fast. There is definitely improvement in the later issues.

The stuff that's the same is word-for-word...I don't think I've watched "The Journey" *that* much (it is TGC, after all), but I can still hear every beat perfectly. Seeing it again, in a new format, it works much better for me. The jarring change and substandard animation in the show made it hard for me to appreciate the writing, but now I can see how perfectly everything is falling into place. The old scenes are done as they were meant to be, and there are new ones, too! But all the characters are ones we've met before. I love the recycling of old "background" faces...no one is forgotten.

Great line: "Well, I don't got kids, but..."

The "take a hood, take a hammer" page -- strangely, one of the worst and one of the best panels in this issue. Both Goliath and Elisa are drawn incredibly awkwardly in the balcony scene...on the other hand, I really like Castaway's tie-askew pose in the last panel. He looks so correct and well-proportioned compared to that Elisa, it hardly looks like the same person drew it. Hedgecock seems to do great when left to his own devices, but falters a bit when he's dealing with more established models -- even if they're human characters.

Back at Elisa's...ahh, costume changes. Cute sleeping duds. Also, later on, nice dress. Much better than that blue thing. I hope Greg really follows through in his desire to give her new clothes from time to time now that he doesn't have animators to worry about. I'm thoroughly sick of that red might-be-leather jacket and those awful high-waisted, narrow-leg jeans!

The fight: I like Elisa's angry face. And: "Dirty monster-loving wh--"? Wow, my little cartoon's all grown up. Well, we all are, so it's nice to see the mood of the series keeping up. (Finish that thought, and we'll be ready for HBO...)

Really love the "Are you all right?" panel. Was that moment in the show? I guess it must have been, but I don't remember it.

The following page is also my favorite in this issue. I especially love the little "looking over the shoulder" inset.

Last page: the injuries have gotten more grave in Gargoyles' newest incarnation, too. Wow. Look, I even see blood. Much more realistic. Gargoyles aren't indestructible.

"Welcome back." Indeed.

The credits for the cover of #2 are correct, aren't they? Really doesn't look like the other Guler/Lostimolo covers.

Again, I like the Nightwatch endcaps for the story.

I do *not* like the light-shooting-out-of-the-eyes effect here. The dark scenes later in the precinct show it much better -- the light effect can be accomplished much more effectively with coloring (see the glowing hammers) than the way Goliath's eyes look with fire shooting out.

I agree with the majority opinion that the title page is awesome. That is all.

I hope Alex stops looking like a scary rubber doll soon.

"Sometimes it's easier if I just stay behind"...cute, I agree, although Goliath's expression seems a little out of character...but it's just so adorable!

Not much comment on the rest of the issue...just generally nicely done throughout. I like the jumping-away bit at the end...this time they got it right. Look, ma, no wings!

Okay, that was a little superficial...there's obviously lots more to say about the all-new material. Lots and lots. Next time.
bluewyvern
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 9:01:40 pm EST from 69.112.108.43

Rebel : Neither have I, I just learned her name from Gathering photos.
Spen
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 8:37:49 pm EST from 66.43.205.110

Speaking of Cree, who else loves Foxxy Love?
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 8:06:40 pm EST from 68.184.215.167

Cree Summer: In answer to that question - Her father is famed Canadian actor Don Francks, and her mother is Lili Red Eagle , a member of the Plains Cree First Nation. Her brother is former Much Music VJ Rainbow Sun Francks of Stargate Atlantis. She was born in Los Angeles, California, but grew up on an Indian reserve in Saskatchewan, Canada.

If you want to see a really young picture of Cree, Click my name. It's a photo when she was guesting on a Canadian kids show called Mr. Dressup (Much like Mr. Rogers Neighborhood - In truth - Mr Dressup and Mr Rogers knew one another and worked together (Yeah, I know you don't care-but I'm full of worthless trivia that just has to spill out)
Wingless
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 7:57:52 pm EST from 99.245.254.123

Spen > Thanks. I've never been to a Gathering, so I didn't know her name.
Rebel
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 7:44:48 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

Rebel : You mean Zehra? You know, that just cound be it. She does sound a bit like how I imagine Shari to sound. A good guess at any rate.

Siren : Not to bring the drama back up again, but I do have to take issue with one statement: "And then yes, they ALWAYS come back. ALWAYS." While true more often than not, I have seen two occasions where the person left and never came back: Sevarius Jr., and James Birdsong.
Spen
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 7:37:35 pm EST from 66.43.205.110

Matt> Good catch. I'll take it. :)
bluewyvern
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 7:26:45 pm EST from 69.112.108.43

bluewyvern> Cool idea. I'd like to make a suggestion though. Istead of "Gargoyles Lives!" try "Gargoyles Live Again!" It relates more to the series. Just my opinion, take it or leave it.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 7:22:47 pm EST from 68.184.215.167

Bagpipes, Matt> Both nice ideas. Especially the abandoning comics.

What I think would be useful is a good web promo page we could all use...I've started leaving a little ad in my sig on other forums, but I wasn't quite sure what it should point *to*. I settled for "Gargoyles lives! DVDs, all NEW comics, and Q&A with series creator Greg Weisman!", with "Gargoyles lives" linked to the main Ask Greg page, which seemed to have the most complete information about the dvds and comics in the sidebar at one glance. Still, folks just looking at the main content could be a little confused...it would be nice to have something specifically to draw new people in that prominently features all the new stuff for sale, then directs people to Ask Greg, the Wiki, and the CR for community interaction.

Anyone want to whip something like that up? Gore?
bluewyvern
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 7:15:37 pm EST from 69.112.108.43

Greg Weisman's right about the name of Gillecomgain's father, by the way; I have a book which contains the family tree of the human characters in the "City of Stone" flashbacks (a children's book on genealogy called "A Monster at the Top of the Tree"), and it included Gillecomgain's father (though it spells his name slightly different from Greg's version, as "Maelbrigte").

Incidentally, according to the book, Maelbrigte and Findlaech were brothers and Macbeth and Gillecomgain were cousins - in contrast to the cartoon, where Gillecomgain's of peasant stock. (Findlaech's father, according to the family tree in the book, was named Ruardi, by the way.)
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 7:01:45 pm EST from 4.245.16.248

I've gotten into the habit of leaving copies of Issue #1 at Starbucks and such.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 6:37:29 pm EST from 68.184.215.167

I've been thinking about making "postcards" to help spread word of the Gargoyles comic, something small that I could leave on tables at the local coffee shop, library, etc. I love drawing and the comic/DVDs have gotten my creative energy going again, which it needed badly. I might try making a banner also at some point.
Bagpipes5K - [bagpipes5k2 at sbcglobal dot net]
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 6:30:17 pm EST from 69.217.151.56

L.T. Williams, My Mistake... Cree is HALF Candian, Like Matt Groening and Walt Disney.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 5:24:29 pm EST from 161.184.65.92

Reminder to Phoenician & others: you have until the end of this Friday to make your original submission for the gargoyles 2008 comic contest.

I've been spending some time in another forum for an online comic. In the that forum, there is a continuing thread called "stupid answer, stupid question". Somebody posts an answer, related to that online comic, and the response is to post a question that can have that answer as well as a new answer. I also discuss the comic there. I've been using gargoyle quotes, when appropriate, as my answers. When somebody develops a good banner for advertising gargoyle comics, I plan on updating my profile and adding that banner to my signature. Thus, I will be advertising for the gargoyle comic without spamming.

Right now, I'm hoping that the new comic does not come out on February 6, but I wouldn't mind it coming out the week before, on January 20. Why do I care about that date? Simple, February 5, I will be working in elections all day.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 4:31:10 pm EST from 98.20.251.54

Isn't Cree Summer's father from Canada or something like that?
Aldrius
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 4:00:02 pm EST from 207.112.122.104

Greg just posted the name of Gillecomgain's father

cover-The coloring will make this cover. Nice and simple. Srange we're getting art for #10 though. (and I'm alreaady losing points from Ed's contest heh)
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 3:59:31 pm EST from 64.148.26.148

I agree with others who've pointed out that there are plenty of Gargoyles voice actors who don't match their characters' ethnicity. I'm sure many of the voice actors playing Scottish characters aren't Scottish, they are just faking Scottish accents. I don't see why Shari's voice actor would have to be Arabian. She just needs to fake a slight Arabian accent, if that.

Maybe Greg Weisman was talking about that girl on the Gargoyles Season 1 DVD? I was watching the Gathering footage and I don't know who she is, but apparently she's a regular Gathering attendee, and participating in the radio plays has made her want to pursue voice acting. I don't think she's Arabian but she's definitely foreign. I guess "many of you" would know her, lol.
Rebel
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 3:53:01 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

L.T. Williams> I think Cree is Canadian. Matt Frewer too, I believe.

Wrong on both accounts. Cree is from LA. Matt from DC.

BUT I AM CANADAIN! ^_^ :D
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 3:45:01 pm EST from 161.184.65.92

Gargoyles #10 cover> Cool! That is all. *scampers back to work*
Asatira
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 2:23:21 pm EST from 131.204.97.9

Yeah, it's pretty cool. I wonder how close it will be to the final art.

I first saw the picture in Previews. What's funny is that there is also an advertisement for Gargoyles #6 in Previews and it's not the correct picture. I guess they printed they issue before they had the final art for #6, which is weird because #6 has been out for 3 months today.
The Gargoyles Pulse(Anthony Tini)
...updated Mondays afternoon/early evening
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 2:08:54 pm EST from 159.240.11.241

Wow! Greg B just posted the prototype of the cover for #10, "The Gate". Check it out!

http://gargoyles.dracandros.com/The_Gate
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 12:44:11 pm EST from 68.184.215.167

Music Video Contest > I see no reason there shouldn't be one. I'll mention it to the Gathering 2008 co-chairs tonight and I'll take charge of collecting the entries if need be.

Todd > Be sure to touch a metal part of the case before touching the motherboard. The least bit of static discharge can fry an integrated circuit.

I'm not sure who I'd voice cast as Shari, but it probably wouldn't be Lucy Lawless.

Keith David sighting: He plays a judge in Ice Cube and Tracy Morgan's new comedy film "First Sunday."

169 days left until The Gathering 2008 in Chicago, Illinois!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"Rarely is the question asked: 'Is our children learning?'" - George W. Bush
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 12:34:04 pm EST from 24.106.128.24

"Mochi> "For those who have gone to the Gathering in the past, have fan made music videos been shown at all during the convention? I'm just curious..."

Yeah, they have. Every year that I've been to and have heard of, anyway."

Any news at all on whether or not we will have them this year? It's been pretty quiet.
Spoonvonstup - [howbedobe at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 12:07:04 pm EST from 70.57.149.182

SLG must have updated their site recently to say this:

1/23/08
Gargoyles Volume One

And Diamond has taken down their Jan 16th expected list. I will update The Pulse.
The Gargoyles Pulse(Anthony Tini)
...updated Mondays afternoon/early evening
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 11:13:15 am EST from 159.240.11.241

The Clan Building TPB is listed on Diamond's shipping list for January 16th. However, it won't become the most current shipping list until Monday, and changes are possible until that point. If it's still on the list by Monday, I'd say it's probable that we'll see the book released on Wednesday.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 11:11:23 am EST from 209.6.248.33

I think Cree is Canadian. Matt Frewer too, I believe.
L.T. Williams
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 11:07:43 am EST from 71.93.81.240

So... have we gotten any confirmation about the TPB coming out on the 16th?
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 10:12:23 am EST from 68.184.215.167

Just be careful when you remove the CMOS battery. You don't want to bend the metal piece that holds it in. It ensures contact between the CMOS and motherboard. If any of that contact is lost, then your motherboard maybe not get the power it needs from the battery. Just use a little TLC and you'll be fine.
The Gargoyles Pulse(Anthony Tini)
...updated Mondays afternoon/early evening
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 9:00:43 am EST from 159.240.11.254

GOREBASH - Thanks. That does sound a lot simpler than getting a new computer.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 8:37:31 am EST from 4.244.210.78

Todd: consider your CMOS battery already dead.

but not to worry! replacing it should be a very simple and fairly painless task. about the hardest part is trying to figure out how to open your computer case. once its open you can just look around for the battery, it'll be one of those flat, silver, quarter-sized things used in lots of small electronics. Just pop it out (you may need a small flathead screwdriver to help pop it out) and take it to your nearest store that'd sell batteries. The battery type will be printed on the battery itself (most likely a 2032). Once you get the new one, just pop it back in, close up the case, and you're good to go for a few more years.
Gorebash
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 8:31:17 am EST from 207.206.236.203

Todd> Not sure how much longer you have, but it's a real quick fix. Just take out the CMOS battery, take it to Radio Shack or somewhere you know that carries watch batteries, get a new one and pop it in. Boot up your computer, set your time/settings and what not, and allow the computer to boot up your operating system. After a few minutes, shut down completely then turn your computer back on. If it doesn't ask for the time, the problem is solved. If it does ask for the time, either your battery is not put in correctly or the motherboard isn't getting the power from the battery and may need to be replaced. Always want to go with the cheapest/easier solution first, and that's replacing the CMOS battery.
The Gargoyles Pulse (Anthony Tini)
...updated Mondays afternoon/early evening
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 8:09:01 am EST from 70.15.84.29

Actors and actresses are also cast and not the same race as their character. Sometimes not even the same sex. Bart Simpson is voiced by a woman. And same with live action. Memoirs of a Geisha was about Japanese Geisha, but mostly Chinese women played them. So long as they can act and look the part, who cares what race they are, IMO?
Siren
Don't knock on Death's door. Ring his doorbell and run, he hates that.
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 8:01:50 am EST from 68.202.76.113

Greg B> "As for Shari, Greg has said that she's Arabic, so Lucy Lawless doesn't quite fit the bill"

I'm afraid I don't follow your logic here. Just because a character is of a particular ethnicity doesn't mean a voice actor should be. Hyena is a white Canadian while Cree Summer is a black American, yet one would be hard pressed to find a voice actress more fitting for Hyena's personality.
Algernon
"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up" -C. S. Lewis
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 7:47:23 am EST from 149.157.1.180

Patrick mentioned earlier this week that my clock problems (having to reset it every time I turned on the computer) were a sign that my computer's internal battery was dying. Does anybody have any idea as to how long it's likely to be before it *does* die - that is, whether it might last for a few more weeks or a couple of months, or just a few days? (It began acting this way shortly before Christmas.)
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 7:01:41 am EST from 4.244.210.78

Mochi> "For those who have gone to the Gathering in the past, have fan made music videos been shown at all during the convention? I'm just curious..."

Yeah, they have. Every year that I've been to and have heard of, anyway.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 5:20:43 am EST from 75.42.215.164

Kath Soucie? She's a little light-voiced for Shari I think. I imagine either someone more aggressive and persistent or someone rougher and more in control. You know, despite being not of arab decent either, I think that Kristen Bell would be good in the role. She's got that slightly-annoying in your face but not really attitude to her. I was trying to think of an actress that has a great story-telling voice, but that's something that's hard to pick out.

But speaking of Duval and hypothetical voice casting, I always thought Bebe Neuwirth would be neat as Katana. No basis for that other than a gut feeling, but still. It's out there.
Aldrius
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 4:02:35 am EST from 207.112.122.104

Wow... What happened here? Glad I missed out on that drama stuff...

But yeah... Gargoyles... Let's chat...

For those who have gone to the Gathering in the past, have fan made music videos been shown at all during the convention? I'm just curious...
The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>^^)> The DVDs are awesome!
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 2:37:46 am EST from 72.199.225.9

Bad Guys #2: I'm kinda skeptical about it coming out this month with Trade Paperback due pretty soon. but as long as I don't have to wait till March it's not so bad.

Shari: I dunno for some reason I had Kathy Soucie (sp?) for her.
Starlioness
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 2:14:20 am EST from 24.18.251.55

I finally got #6, #7, and Bad Guys #1 today. Read them all, but I will post my thoughts tomorrow. Right now, I will say I have enjoyed them so much
Siren
Don't knock on Death's door. Ring his doorbell and run, he hates that.
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 1:20:58 am EST from 68.202.76.113

BlueWyvern> Patrick Stewart as Master Dawa? Not sure if I see that, I think for him, I'm holding off until we meet Mr. Duval. For years, in my mind, I've imagined Duval speaking with Stewart's voice. Now, we haven't met him yet, and only Greg knows when we will, so he might not fit, but I think I want to see if he will before I personally peg him as anyone.
Greg Bishansky
"Never hate your enemies, it clouds your judgement." -Michael Corleone
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 1:04:17 am EST from 75.56.245.4

Greg> About Morgan Freeman, really? Neat!

...But I *so* love Lucy Lawless as Shari...maybe she can just do an accent. Hmm...
bluewyvern
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 12:37:36 am EST from 69.112.108.43

BlueWyvern> Greg did say at the 2007 Gathering that Morgan Freeman is his in mind actor for Quincy. Good ear there.

As for Shari, Greg has said that she's Arabic, so Lucy Lawless doesn't quite fit the bill. Greg did say he has someone in mind who "most of us know", but he's keeping mum on it.

Great comments, btw.
Greg Bishansky
"Never hate your enemies, it clouds your judgement." -Michael Corleone
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 12:32:25 am EST from 75.56.245.4

Hooray for reconciliation. And a return to, ah, "normalcy".

Clearly, I should have just waited another hour to post. *eyeroll*

Now let's talk Gargoyles...
bluewyvern
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 12:28:11 am EST from 69.112.108.43

Thank you. I'm not sure the the TGS CR is, but I guess we'll leave that topic in the past where it belongs I suppose. I don't lie or deceive, not online, not in real life. The truth is always more fun.

Let's talk about Gargoyles! Who's got two thumbs and is pumped for the TPB Vol 1?! This guy!
The Gargoyles Pulse (Anthony Tini)
...updated Mondays afternoon/early evening
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 12:21:55 am EST from 70.15.84.29

Tony> Yeah, we've gone the rounds before, but let me tell you, it was not personal and for that I do apologize. It was a knee-jerk reaction based entirely on the actions of someone else in the TGS CR years back who lied to and deceived the CR for years under various aliases.

No excuse, I should have just been more direct and less sarcastic. It's a peeve, but I should not have reacted like that based on what someone else once did.

Welcome back to the CR for real, everyone deserves a second chance.
Greg Bishansky
"Never hate your enemies, it clouds your judgement." -Michael Corleone
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 12:10:53 am EST from 75.56.245.4

Arkansas Mezzo> Left click and drag past the times on each post to see the ip.

If you don't want your ip displayed you can post through a proxy sever.
Ntripy
"All things are true" "...though who can say if it be true"
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 12:08:23 am EST from 72.232.196.138

iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit's TONY!

I'm not mad. It's over and done with. Eventually, I would've put my real name, but again I was "laying low" because you can't hide because of your IP.

Plus, I put work into my website, update every Monday, and I am proud of my work. If no one ever looks at it, that's cool because I did it for me.

Also, the link will become key when I post the #7 - #9 chronological storyline that Greg Weisman was interested in seeing.

But anyway, a few weeks ago, I felt not wanted and hated by most of the people in this room. But I love coming here, reading the posts, and sharing my thoughts. I couldn't stay away now even if I tried. So I posted under a different, tried not to make any jokes because no one gets my sense of humor, and enjoyed myself. I felt no pressure or angst and it felt like things were getting back to normal.
The Gargoyles Pulse (Anthony Tini)
...updated Mondays afternoon/early evening
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 12:05:50 am EST from 70.15.84.29

You know what, you're all right. I handled this badly. Thing is, we had a major troll who did something similar in the TGS CR a while back, and did quite a bit of damage to the CR as a community. So, yeah, I'll admit, my reaction was knee-jerk.

All that being said, it just felt a little deceptive to me, and I was not trying to bring old stuff up (I wasn't even in that argument), but I honestly think he should have just posted his name originally and been done with it.

Siren> Believe me, I did not do this for "laughs and kicks", that is really not my style. I called it as I saw it, and I saw it wrong. Mea culpa. Yeah, I was probably way too sarcastic.

MATT> It's cool. No worries.
Greg Bishansky
"Never hate your enemies, it clouds your judgement." -Michael Corleone
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 12:03:13 am EST from 75.56.245.4

Yeah, you can. Doesn't mean you should just because you want to save face. Be a man/woman and own up to your mistakes. I've said and done stupid stuff in my life. If necessary, I apologize and then I put a period and move on. If someone brings it back up, I roll my eyes and continue to look forward. Feeling the need to make up a new persona every time you screw up is immature, stupid, and cowardly. If you can't own up to your mistakes online, where you really don't pay for it. You can't get fired. You likely can't get sued. No one can physically harm you. So why do people constantly have to make new names every time they screw up? Laziness? Lack of a backbone? Immaturity? Or simply the desire to never have to admit you acted like a complete jerk or moron. I may not like Greg B much and he has on many occasions, been a complete arrogant asshole, but at least I can respect him for that because he doesn't put his tail between his legs and then come back with a new name.
Siren
Don't knock on Death's door. Ring his doorbell and run, he hates that.
posted @ Thu, Jan 10, 2008 12:02:46 am EST from 68.202.76.113

Uh, I don't think someone should consider themselves a target simply because they changed their screenname and text color. That is ludicrous. Tony changed his name and whatever. So what? Even if he was trying to hide (and I don't think he was) who cares? Let him hide. Let him be whoever he wants to be in this Room as long as it isn't a troll. He was being good, so why start trouble? And I don't think outing him was the problem. Anyone could've said "Hey, Tony, thats you, right?" but what Greg B did is just be an a$$hole about it.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 11:59:26 pm EST from 68.184.215.167

"Offline you can't just change your persona because you did or said something you regretted so you can continue on your merry way."

I know, but this is the great thing about the internet. Online, you CAN become a different person overnight, with no past.

It seems ridiculous that this comment room should take that capability away. It's taking away one of the coolest things about the internet. I suppose it's pointless of me to even mention this anyway, since I doubt Gorebash or anyone else is reading this. *sigh*
Rebel
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 11:52:26 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

I agree with you that outing him was pointless and shameless on Greg B's part, but he knows that too. He is far more an attention whore than anyone else. And I don't think Tony has been trying to be an attention whore after his initial "I'm leaving" post, but still, be it Greg B or not, SOMEONE would have done it. So let's not just feel like Greg B did something big. Outing someone's other username online is nothing to feel glorified about. The WHOLE thing could have been avoided if Tony just put a period at the end and moved on and didn't bother to hide in the first place.

Again, as someone who frequents a lot of forums, I've seen this whole drama before. Someone always has to be the asshole and start stuff with a past argumentee just for laughs and kicks and drama and whatever else they jack off on with themselves. And the argumentee then plays victim because their entire playworld just got blown to bits and they feel exposed.

Again, the whole thing would be avoided if Tony just had a "f**k it" attitude and didn't try to hide. Greg B's made some flies at me before, I don't usually bite the bait because I could giving a flying f*** most the time.


Have a nice day :)
Siren
Don't knock on Death's door. Ring his doorbell and run, he hates that.
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 11:46:35 pm EST from 68.202.76.113

Yay! My SLG order finally arrived today...all caught up now. No more hiding.

I'm relieved to know I in fact successfully avoided all spoilers. Every moment was a surprise and delight and a total shocker, just as Greg hoped.

Strange I never heard the "injured Brooklyn" hint before...now I'm worried about the guy! As far as Brooklyn's appearance changing after 40 years, I figured when he returned he would look much like his Future Tense incarnation, armor and all. I think FT did a wonderful job of realistically aging everyone, the Trio especially, to middle age. The voices were perfect. FT Brooklyn did look a little taller and more filled-out, and stood straighter...plus I think everyone's skin darkened a little, especially Lex's, which helped show their age. An injury (I'm behind the broken horn idea -- I really don't want to see any more cybernetics) would definitely show the contrast, though.

Here's something I've been wondering about. You may have already discussed it before: voice casting. Greg's decided to keep mum about his personal imaginary casting, so we have to come up with your own. What have you come up with? Here's mine:

Shari: first new character, I had some trouble with her. I waffled a little, but I was sure pretty early I wanted something with an exotic accent, perhaps Australian. My first choice was the woman who plays Lila on Dexter, but it still didn't seem right. I was hearing an inflection similar to Claudia Black's, but I didn't want her, either. Then, I got it: Lucy Lawless. I had originally thought something younger and "fresher" sounding, but I realized Lucy Lawless fit the bill perfectly. And Shari looks young, but the voice of a Four should contain some kind of richness and layered depth -- she's no little girl. I'm really glad to have settled on a voice that I can hear so clearly and that sounds so right -- turns out Shari is a Storyteller, and we hear her a *lot*.

Quincy Hemings: I'm afraid inspiration failed me a little here. I settled pretty quickly on Morgan Freeman, but I think it was a weak, easy match. Any better ideas?

Master Dawa: I tried a little harder to find something different for him. I picked, of all people, Patrick Stewart (maybe because he's bald? Am I too hung up on visual cues?). He's not doing Picard, but a lighter, somewhat higher register kind of voice that is maybe a little closer to Sir Ian McKellen. With a Tibetan accent, if you can imagine it. I can only barely.

Sangpo: I'm not too good with kids. He just sounds a lot like Tom.

The "Tasmanian Tiger": Nobody specific for him, either. Australian accent, obviously, and not gravelly like Dingo's but kind of high and crisp. That's all I've got. I'd rather not see him again, either, but I'm afraid we will.

Did I miss anyone?
bluewyvern
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 11:45:01 pm EST from 69.112.108.43

This is really, really stupid. I noticed right away who Tony was. Who cares? He isn't causing any trouble, he isn't being a jerk, he hasn't done ANYTHING wrong. Greg B, you know I don't have any big issues with you, but to bring old shit up like you did just to stir up trouble was really immature. It was an old Greg B thing to do, and I have to call you on it.

This Comment Room has had the good fortune for a while to not have any trouble with trolls or whatever and so you decide you need to stir up some drama? For the past couple weeks it has been peaceful and cordial and mature in here and you had to go stir the pot. That is really immature. I don't want you to hate me or anything, but as your friend I suggest you nip this in the bud and apologize to Tony, who did nothing wrong. Tony has been civil and drama free since he re-entered the Room. You walked in with the drama llama. Can't you just leave him alone if he is doing nothing wrong?
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 11:39:45 pm EST from 68.184.215.167

A LOT of forums have the IP address public. IMO, if you don't like it, don't post on a certain site. Offline you can't just change your persona because you did or said something you regretted so you can continue on your merry way. That is a cowards way out. Own up to your mistakes and move on. People should stop bitching and whining because they can't have it all and can't hide from their mistakes. You can turn over a new leaf and still be yourself.
Siren
Don't knock on Death's door. Ring his doorbell and run, he hates that.
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 11:25:41 pm EST from 68.202.76.113

I don't think he was trying to hide. After all, he left his website right there in his name where anyone could click it and know it was him.

All the same, I think people ought to at least be *able* to hide, without having to worry about their IP addresses "outing" them. If someone comes here and starts posting under a different name, then even though they may be the same person, they may be trying to use a different "persona", or turn over a new leaf, whatever. They should be capable of doing that. ESPECIALLY if they have been involved with some drama in the past that they want to escape from and start fresh.
Rebel
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 11:12:46 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

Meant to add a personal note to Anthony/Gargoyles Pulse/etc and so on....

Instead of creating MORE DRAMA for yourself, all you had to do was come back, say, "I plan to ignore any further comments about past arguments" and then just ignore any further comments about past arguments. Those who wish to argue with you would eventually stop when it wasn't working and you wouldn't come out looking ridiculous for the whole fiasco. Don't get mad at Greg B for outing you. Someone would have eventually. Build a bridge and get over it. Talk about Gargoyles and ignore nonsense so nonsense doesn't keep getting created. If you have that much trouble not arguing, and can't ignore it, then you have no business bitching about it. It takes two to argue, at least. If you don't want a fight, don't fight. It's that easy.
Siren
Don't knock on Death's door. Ring his doorbell and run, he hates that.
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 11:07:55 pm EST from 68.202.76.113

As someone who has been and still is a member of many forums of all kinds, I can tell you no matter the subject, be it movies, Disney, Gargoyles, local, pets, dogs, pit bulls, Teen Titans, Buffy, Pleo, and everything in between, no matter where I go there are the same types of people. They can be male or female. Old or young. Educated or not. Have a career or be flipping burgers....there are always the:
Know-it-alls
Mediators
Silly
Lovers of Newbie-Speak
Trolls
Attention whores

And some people change their moods. Sometimes they are really nice one day and suddenly they snap and are the attention whores. Cry foul, piss and moan about how someone one the internet violated their emotions in some way and how they are leaving "forever". Often they say something like, "And I know a lot of people agree with me here." and of course that's when they take jabs at all the people who "wronged" them through their keyboards. They either have a good memory or keep a Notepad file of all the people who wronged them, with the copy and pasted post and time stamp to say, "SEE! SEE! He was mean to me!". And then there is the group of people who probably never talked to the attention whore much, but suddenly they start with, "Don't leave! I love your posts!". But mind you, they probably never complemented the drama queen/king before, but they must act like they actually care some person on the internet is having a hissy fit, so they must insert themselves. Then the drama demon makes a HUGE scene and storms out, "NEVER TO BE SEEN AGAIN!". And then yes, they ALWAYS come back. ALWAYS. I have seen dozens of "I'm leaving and never coming back!" posts and have yet to see one of them actually make that a promise instead of a threat.

And most the time the people who do that, I liked or didn't mind them up to that point. And I still don't mind them when they come crawling back like they are doing us some great pleasure. But whenever I see those posts, I tend to ignore them, because they always come back, so I could giving a flying rat's arse about the whole drama they create. For when you feed the attention whore, its what they wanted. And then when they come back, they of course thank anyone who might have said, "Don't leave!".

God that felt good to say!
Siren
Don't knock on Death's door. Ring his doorbell and run, he hates that.
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 11:02:11 pm EST from 68.202.76.113

That's funny ... I don't see IP's when I post here anymore - mine or anyone else's. (Although I used to, and it bothered me a little, too, back then.) I guess it's got something to do with my settings?
Arkansas Mezzo - [arkansasmezzo at gmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 10:44:19 pm EST from 206.255.79.132

Nowhere, but taking someone's IP like that and posting it is a violation of privacy, one of our civil liberties. I don't think anyone would literally "play sock puppets" but someone should be able to reinvent themselves and start fresh if they wanted to.

(And before anyone oh-so-cleverly points it out, yes I'm fully aware that I can stop posting here if it bothers me.)
Rebel
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 10:32:41 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

So exactly where in the Constitution are we guaranteed the right to anonymously troll and play sock puppets?
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 10:03:18 pm EST from 76.241.154.165

Speaking of all this fascinating drama, just WHY exactly are our IP addresses used? I like this comment room a lot, but frankly, I HATE that. I don't want a bunch of people being able to see my IP. This is way too republican-esque.

As I see it, being anonymous, being able to reinvent yourself, are two of the primary "rights" of the internet. People *should* be able to come post under a different name, and have no one know what it is. It's the internet. I really think the IP address thing should be disabled. Besides the privacy and anonymity issue, a talented hacker could come along and see these IPs and do some real damage.

(Note: I'm not speaking specifically of *this* incident; honestly I don't really care. It just reminded me of something that's been bugging me for a while).
Rebel
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 9:54:42 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

Actually, what happened is I said I was going to leave, but then more people posted questions and I answered them and eventually I offered an apology. Plus, some people said they didn't want me to leave and accepted my apology, got over it, and moved on.
So then, I thought it best to "lay low" so to speak, and started posting A DAY (not weeks) later under a different name, color, and avatar. Anyone with any intelligence could figure out it was me easily by two methods: 1) clicking on my name and realizing it took you to TiniTinyTony's website, or 2) checking the IP by highlighting the empty space after the time stamp and comparing it to the IP that I posted under when using my first name.

The only reason the cosmetic changes were made were for anyone who was still sore about my comments, allowing them time to cool down and continue to discuss Gargoyles in a civilized manner instead of playing the "Attack Tony because he doesn't think like me" game.

After a week went by, I stopped using the "Octavio Valentine" name (my two middle names) and decided to start advertising my site more proactively once again since there existed many questions on the status of the TPB and such involving the comic.

It seemed to be going well and bothered no one. No one was attacking me for my opinions and I felt like I could contribute without fear. Again, anyone could click on my website and navigate to my page. If one navigated beyond "The Gargoyles Pulse" to my main site, one could read the about page and realize exactly who I was all along.

Therefore, Mr. "I'm turning over a new leaf" Bishansky, I suggest if you have something to say, be an adult, navigate to my About page, drop me an e-mail and keep your poisonous, passive aggressive comments out of the Comment Room so I and other fairly new comers can come here and post without fear and hate directed towards them on a daily basis. Thank you.

::I apologize to everyone that I had to post this in the Comment Room, but hopefully this clears the air, and we can move on and discuss Gargoyles instead of me.::
The Gargoyles Pulse (Anthony Tini)
...updated Mondays afternoon/early evening
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 9:31:09 pm EST from 70.15.84.29

The Bambi quote = LOL

If only there were explosions...
The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>^^)> The DVDs are awesome!
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 9:15:53 pm EST from 72.199.225.9

I don't have time to go through all the quotes listed, so forgive me if these are repeats.

Xanatos:
"Pay a man enough, and he'll walk barefoot into Hell."
"I'd say I've still got the edge."
"It's my first real stab at cliched villainy. How am I doing?"
"Alex, can you say harassment?"

Thailog:
"I haven't had a good, maniacal laugh in weeks."
"That's quite enough, Norma Rae!"

On another note, I've posted on message boards for years, and over time I must confess I've developed only one real pet peeve. I find it quite sad, and a little pathetic when someone announces they are leaving in a dramatic huff only to return weeks later under a different name, and acting as if no one can tell. Are the people who do this trying to save face? Do they think everyone else is a moron? Both? Neither? Who knows? Why did I bring this up? Oh, no reason in particular.
Greg Bishansky
"Take off that mask. You aren't fooling anyone, Macbeth." -Demona
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 8:29:39 pm EST from 75.56.245.4

"You rode a horse once, could you build one out of spare parts?"
Rebel
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 7:32:57 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

Quotes>

"My Clan can beat your clan any day of the week..."

"Some of my best friends are half-gargoyle, half-human babes with bad attitudes!"

"Maybe we'd better not tell Goliath about this..."
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 7:30:33 pm EST from 75.42.215.164

DPH: Thailog is a good source of quotes.

"Teamwork is so overrated."

"Here's a better question: why does everyone insist on pitching free will to my minions?"

"Now I know where I got the temper."


Another one I enjoy a lot is when Robbins tells Hudson that "it's not shameful to be illiterate, it's only a shame to stay that way." I'm amused by what happens after that, when Hudson notices the sun rise and says he has to go, to which Robbins replies, "now I've done it. I've run you off with my preaching." I like it when a writer knows what they're doing.


Others I like:

"Very wise, my young friend. They would shoot you down like a dog." -Demona

"Hmm, I don't remember any explosions in 'Bambi'." -Lexington

"When all your scheming's done, what will your legacy be, Xanatos?" -Hudson

And I always get a chuckle out of that moment in The Cage when Xanatos says, "oh, hey Goliath. Didn't see you there."
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Hopefully, we should appreciate that given points in time are not so significant as the nature of what is impressed on the mind, and how it is retained and used." -Yes ("Remembering High the Memory")
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 6:27:02 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

Ethan > How about: Verily, It Stinks. Try Again.
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 5:40:49 pm EST from 76.241.154.165

Windows ME = Windows Many Errors
Windows XP = Windows X-tra Patches

I still have yet to come up with one for Vista.
Ethan Gilchrist - [ethangilchrist at gmail dot com]
"I wouldn't wanna live in a world without grudges." --Jack Terricloth of the World Inferno Friendship Society
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 5:13:41 pm EST from 130.218.16.4

Todd< Thanks for the correction. My Mom was an English teacher so I did know better. But, it was late and I really didn't feel like double posting.

But yea man, thanks for the correction. I'm actually kind of glad someone noticed... maybe education isn't dead?

:)
Justin
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 4:58:00 pm EST from 74.135.61.121

Kerry-No problem, I've seen the episodes way too many times I think ;)

I didn't say Demona was older, I said she was consciously alive longer.
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 4:42:20 pm EST from 64.148.26.148

Purplegoldfish> Technically, Demona is still younger than Hudson, for neither have aged for a thousand years give or take a few years. Hudson is still older because he was born before her.

All> I'm going to see a new comic book guy today. Do you guys think Bad Guys #2 will be out this month or next month? The comment that Robby Bevard
posted @ Wed, Dec 26, 2007 11:04:14 pm EST said that he already colored the BG #2 cover, and since the inside doesn't get colored, do you think it has been approved for this month or do you guys think it's still awaiting approval?
The Gargoyles Pulse - [dot dot dot call me "Pulse"]
...updated Mondays afternoon/early evening
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 4:29:42 pm EST from 159.240.11.254

PGF> Ah, thanks. ^..^
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 3:54:32 pm EST from 199.38.51.134

Kerry-I think it's something like
Demona: "I'm younger, stronger and smarter than you! your pride will cost you your life!
Hudson: "But I know something you don't, something that comes only with age, I know how to wait"

And the ironic thing is that Demona has been alive a lot longer than Hudson has.
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 3:44:23 pm EST from 64.148.26.148

"I know how to *wait*." -Hudson

I wish I could remember the rest of the exchange; I've always liked it, but I can't recall the rest of what was said there.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 2:37:28 pm EST from 199.38.51.134

DPH: "Not a bad life, all things considered -- Hudson

Always loved that line.

(Off to finish guesses for the 2008 comic contest . . . .)
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 2:29:22 pm EST from 70.162.221.121

My favorite Gargoyles quote is, "My strength has never depended on brute force, Demona, but on true friends." -- Goliath

I also love the Goliath quote in response to Brooklyn commenting on it being a miracle that Broadway was still alive, "...a miracle named Elisa."
The Gargoyles Pulse
...updated Mondays afternoon/early evening
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 1:26:12 pm EST from 159.240.11.254

Was flipping around the dial over Christmas and came across the movie "Elf" - being bored, i stayed with it for a while - never expecting Ed Asner to be Santa! Hearing him say the line "I'm getting too old for this Job" made my jaw drop - if it weren't for the word Job-it would have been been perfect!
Wingless
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 1:00:37 pm EST from 99.245.254.123

The hilarious thing is that Vista runs better on a Mac than on a PC... though why anybody would want to eviscerate their Mac that way I'll never know.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 10:30:36 am EST from 199.38.51.134

"Boy, the city sure is different when it snow," Lexington says all mystified and full of his childish awe.
"Yeah, it's colder," Brooklyn replies all grumpy and sarcastic with his arms folded across his chest.
I laugh every time i here that one, it reminds me of home.

On the Vista debate- the only people I've met who actually like Vista are hardcore computer people (you know, the ones who work on computers for a living...) I guess they get more business then.

"I've heard that if you play a Vista CD backwards, it spouts satanic messages. That's nothing. If you play it forwards, it installs Vista." ~compliments of my good friend Ben
chris
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 10:23:34 am EST from 66.211.201.24

"We're not the last. We're not alone."

One of my all-time favorites, although Ed Asner's delivery is what makes it great, so reading it doesn't work as well.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 9:15:21 am EST from 68.58.182.37

PATRICK - Don't worry; I wasn't considering ME at all. I was only asking because I honestly didn't know anything about it, and the references to it suggested that there was a memorable story behind it - not a happy one, but a memorable one.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 8:54:35 am EST from 4.244.213.255

Patrick> My eyes are burning now, and it's all your fault. ;P
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 8:42:46 am EST from 199.38.51.134

Here's a few pages with some quotes:
http://pucksplace.artchicks.org/aerie/quotes.htm
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108783/quotes
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Gargoyles
Siren
Don't knock on Death's door. Ring his doorbell and run, he hates that.
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 8:23:29 am EST from 68.202.76.113

Todd > I hope you weren't asking about Windows ME because you're thinking of using an operating system older than Windows XP. I would recommend against continuing to use Windows 98 or ME. They're no longer supported by Microsoft and it's getting harder and harder to find software that's backwards compatible.

Even worse than confusing "your" with "you're" on the internet is the widespread use of "ur". If Goliath and Elisa had that conversation over the internet, it might have gone like this:

"i no ur options r ltd"

"LTDOMGWTFBBQ!!!!1111one!?"

"LOL u no who im talking about..."

170 days left until The Gathering 2008 in Chicago, Illinois!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"Rarely is the question asked: 'Is our children learning?'" - George W. Bush
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 7:56:06 am EST from 24.106.128.24

dph> What do you want to use these quotes for? It'd help to know so we can help you pick ones that would be best suited to that purpose.

Of course, there's always the old standby "What sorcery is this?" Also "I've been denied everything, even my revenge!" I always liked Hudson's line "They're attacking the castle! That's all we need to know!" Really shows his more 10th century philosophy. And as it turned out, the clan could have benefited from knowing quite a bit more.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 7:28:34 am EST from 209.6.248.33

Sorry about this, but - "you're" should not be used to represent "your". "You're" is a contraction of "you are". The substitution of "you're" for "your" is another one of those all-too-common spelling errors that I've seen on the Internet (and even off it) lately; another is the use of "it's" for "its". ("It's" is a contraction of "it is".)
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 7:23:35 am EST from 4.244.213.255

Not a single quote but a few in the same scene...

"I know you're options are limited."

"Limited?!!??"

"But you know who I'm talking about..."
Justin
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 4:05:06 am EST from 74.135.61.121

dph >> "Jalapena" could be a quote to use...
The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>^^)> The DVDs are awesome!
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 1:49:25 am EST from 72.199.225.9

dph: If you go to Dtain's image resource site, she has a quote a the bottom of each page which changes when you refresh
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 1:18:14 am EST from 64.148.26.148

"What could be strong enough to leave claw-marks in solid stone?"
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 12:50:35 am EST from 24.207.163.239

dph >

"The world needs your kind of order like it needs another ice age"

That one has always been one of my faves. I'll try to think of more tomorrow.
Rebel
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 12:42:06 am EST from 24.227.200.138

I'm looking for some good/decent quotes to use from Gargoyles. so far I've used the following:

Know her? I NAMED her.
Looks like there's a new player in the game
You sure you can fly this?
As a matter of fact I do.
You don't know the half of it.
I hope you're not planning to eat your catch.
I've been looking for you!
Trophies!
What I saw through those binoculars was no robot.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 12:21:54 am EST from 98.20.251.54

Todd - There is a standing joke that Windows:ME stands for Windows:Morons Employed. The operating system was incredibly unstable. Maybe by this time next year, Vista will be 'fixed'. Until such time, consider users of Windows Vista to be Alpha/Beta Testers of a new product. Thankfully, Windows XP is still available for sell, at least at Ebay and Circuit City. If you can't find a computer with Windows XP to buy, find somebody you trust to build you a new pc with Windows XP.

People wonder why we want Microshaft to keep the previous version of the operating system on the market when they release a new version of the operating system. It's simple: we want to be able to hedge our bets. Name any industry, outside of computer software, where companies can get away with releasing new products that come with known bugs. All I really want is Windows:BF. That's a version of Windows that does not add any new features except the most important one: incredible stability.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 12:15:51 am EST from 98.20.251.54

Todd: ME was before XP, and was dreaded by all who used it. I managed to skip ME from 98, probably saved me a lot of grief.
Asatira
posted @ Wed, Jan 9, 2008 12:04:16 am EST from 68.119.80.28

Todd > Yes. It's horrible. Luckily, it's no longer used.
Rebel
posted @ Tue, Jan 8, 2008 10:48:16 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

I'm not familiar with Windows: ME. Is it really that dreadful?
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Tue, Jan 8, 2008 10:46:56 pm EST from 4.244.212.200

dph> One of my friends works on computers for a living, and he definitely agrees that Vista is the new ME.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth-dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Tue, Jan 8, 2008 10:40:06 pm EST from 24.98.74.35

I haven't had any problems with Vista, but I have also heard that it does have its share of problems with certain hardware and software.
The Gargoyles Pulse
...updated Mondays afternoon/early evening
posted @ Tue, Jan 8, 2008 10:38:48 pm EST from 70.15.84.29

Todd - I really want to reinforce what Patrick said about staying away from Vista. My stepmother bought a new laptop (her 1st computer) with Vista. While doing updates for Windows, downloading Firefox, and 2 other programs, the laptop completely froze up. The only way out of it was to reboot the laptop. The only way we got to reboot the laptop was disconnecting all the power and then the battery to turn it off. I'm thinking Vista might be comparable to Windows:ME.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Tue, Jan 8, 2008 10:24:24 pm EST from 98.20.251.54

Thanks for the advice, Patrick. I hope that my computer's internal battery still has a few months left.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Tue, Jan 8, 2008 10:19:26 pm EST from 4.244.212.200

Todd > The clock not keeping time is a sign that your computer's internal battery is dying. When shopping for a new PC, opt for Windows XP if you still can and stay away from Vista. Beyond that, the vast majority of the entry level systems out there are more than adequate for word processing, e-mail, and the internet. Hard drives start in excess of 100 GB these days, and most PCs start with at least 1 GB of RAM. If you're a gamer or a graphic designer, you'll want to research graphics cards.
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Tue, Jan 8, 2008 7:59:43 pm EST from 76.241.154.165

Off-topic, but I was wondering if anyone here who has a more practical knowledge of computers than I do could give me some advice. My computer (a Windows 98) is showing signs of dying (chiefly, the clock is running into problems, and has to be regularly reset - but I'm afraid there'll be other problems soon), and I may need to get a new one before long. Does anybody have some good ideas on the do's and don't's in getting a new computer?
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Tue, Jan 8, 2008 7:02:07 pm EST from 4.244.212.200

bluewyvern >> As far as Brooklyn goes, we're speculating about what might happen to him during timedancer, not #7. But yeah, it would be a good idea to steer clear of here until you get #7. I do my best to use spoiler tags, but it's so easy to forget (especially when it's an issue that's been out for a little while), and it would be very easy for me, or anyone else, to accidentally spoil some of the story for you.
Rebel
posted @ Tue, Jan 8, 2008 6:13:07 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

LA, LA, LA...I can't hear...well, most of you...

I should probably just stay away from here until my #7 comes (come on, SLG! I don't think I've even gotten shipping confirmation yet!), but this place is fascinating and I can't quite resist. I've been trying to skim and skip -- the bio discussion seems pretty safe -- but I think I've been tragically spoiled about something happening to Brooklyn in #7. Ahh! My fault for being here in the first place, but let's stay diligent with spoiler tags...

I'd like to come back and bore you with my blow-by-blow thoughts on #1-6, as soon as I get them typed up.

I should probably just exile myself though and take up watch at the mailbox, if I know what's good for me...
bluewyvern
posted @ Tue, Jan 8, 2008 6:01:11 pm EST from 69.112.108.43

in fanart.. I've seen some pics with Brook's wing damaged somewhat.. but that's fanart...
Starlioness
posted @ Tue, Jan 8, 2008 5:07:38 pm EST from 24.18.251.55

chris> That may well be true, but the fact is, very few grotesques look much like the living or stone gargoyles on the TV show. ("Grotesques" are pretty much any figures on a piece of architecture with a somewhat monstrous appearance, while "gargoyles" are exclusively the drain-spouts with a figure carved around them, usually with an open mouth at the spout's end. That means technically, if you came across a sleeping Goliath and didn't know he was actually alive, you would call him a grotesque, but I'd feel bad for anyone trying to pitch a show called "Grotesques".) Anything from a relatively flat and human looking face carved into a brick on a building to a full free-standing statue of an imagined creature can be a grotesque. But the latter, especially in the size and with the detail of most of the architectural gargoyles on the show, are pretty rare, assuming they exist at all. As for the aforementioned rooftop, what I find particularly odd about it is that many of the gargoyles are set back from the edge of the roof, so they probably can't be seen from the street. Why put a bunch of stone gargoyles in locations where very few people will see them?
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Tue, Jan 8, 2008 5:05:13 pm EST from 209.6.248.33

Speaking of Future Tense, and aging the characters...ignoring the cybernetic parts, Lexington looked awesome in that scene where he first appears on that balcony. They made some very subtle changes to his face to make him look less simian and "cute" and more mature and dangerous. I really hope that a conscious effort is made by the comic book artists to have him slowly attain this appearance.
Rebel
posted @ Tue, Jan 8, 2008 5:03:06 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

"In real life as well as in the world of the television series, New York is filled with gargoyles; there are more gargoyles there, in fact, per square mile than anywhere else in the U.S."
Gargwiki
http://gargoyles.dracandros.com/Gargoyles
chris
posted @ Tue, Jan 8, 2008 4:29:42 pm EST from 66.211.201.24

Incisivis> I haven't done a ton of research on it, but I'm not aware of that many highly detailed, fully human sized grotesques anywhere, let alone in Manhattan. So yeah, artistic license. I guess the in-continuity explanation could be that most gargoyle statuary from the times when human-gargoyle alliances were more common mimicked "real" gargoyles more closely than the grotesques in our world do because they had the real thing to base it on and because they were trying to "fake out" potential attackers by making them think they had real gargoyles and not just statues. So in modern times, because they're based on attempts to copy real gargoyles, architectural stone gargoyles look more like real gargoyles without anyone realizing that real gargoyles exist.

That rooftop that Lex and Goliath hide from the Pack on in "Thrill of the Hunt" is pretty big cheat, as it's absolutely littered with architectural gargoyles. What IS that place?
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Tue, Jan 8, 2008 4:22:11 pm EST from 209.6.248.33

Brooklyn: I would guess that the artist for Timedancer would draw heavily on Brooklyn's updated character design for "Future Tense". Maybe not the outfit, but that episode did a great job of aging up the Trio. As for walking hunched, that does seem to depend on the artists working on the episode.

Awakenings: Yeah, there are some good designs hiding in there. I never noticed that the Goliath-like gargoyle with the spear and sheild appears to be female, or that the other Lexington-type wasn't just a recoloured design without wing membranes: he's actually got a different face.

But here's what I've wondered about the garogyle sculptures as seen in the series. Are there really grotesques that detailed and exotic found on Manhattan rooftops? I have a book of photos of American grotesques, and none of them look so Disney-gargoyle esque as the ones in the series, though a few are fairly detailed. I'm guessing artistic license?
Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream"--Shirley Jackson
posted @ Tue, Jan 8, 2008 3:35:55 pm EST from 216.36.154.204

I too hope that Brook only looses a horn, or is badly scarred...However I think it likely that it will be a loss or partial loss of a limb and since typical Gargoyles have 7 limbs it could be any limb to any degree of sevarity. (2 Arms, 2 Legs, 2 Wings, and 1 Tail)
Chip - [Dragonhunter723 at yahoo dot com]
Death is always pointless. That is the Point. --Anubis
posted @ Tue, Jan 8, 2008 3:35:21 pm EST from 68.164.2.104

What I am most hoping for with Brooklyn's return from his timedancing adventures is...a change in stature. It would be utterly absurd for him to suddenly be as tall and burly as Goliath, but I'm really hoping he'll at least be a little taller, and less "scrawny" looking. I'm also hoping that he won't crouch over or hunch over so much. Brooklyn is one of my favorite characters, but it always irritated me how he hardly ever actually stood up straight (well...straight for a gargoyle, anyway). The first few minutes of "Future Tense" do a good job of showing him like this. He's bigger, but not as big as Goliath, and he's actually standing up pretty good. Towards the end of Future Tense he goes back to his old scrawny, hunched-over self. (Also, that one scene where he's on the rooftop with Lex and Broadway, and he flares his wings and says "Let's do it"...he looks good there too).

I always figured his injury would be something pretty major. For Brook's sake, I hope it's something as minor as a broken horn or a big scar.
Rebel
posted @ Tue, Jan 8, 2008 2:57:10 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

Yeah, I was recently reading the archives before I asked why Hudson's scar never healed and it seems that the explanation was that when he got the cut on his eye, it was so deep that it already began to permanently scar before sunrise, therefore it never healed. So Goliath's deep stab in the stomach taking a day or so to heal felt realistic and true to the Gargoyles healing system.

I'd hate to see Brooklyn with a horn missing, but it would be awesome if he came back from his journey looking like he did in Future Tense. A good permanent injury I think, would be a limp when he walks, but you can't really show that all too well in the comics, unless he's in a battle and he's a little slow getting out of the way or something.
The Gargoyles Pulse
...updated Mondays afternoon/early evening
posted @ Tue, Jan 8, 2008 2:40:13 pm EST from 159.240.11.254

Demonskyre> I think you are dead on with both Brook and Goliath's injuries.

Though I also think that emotionally Goliath was healing as well. I don't think he was ready to leave New York and Elisa until their relationship had healed as well.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Tue, Jan 8, 2008 2:14:40 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Brooklyn's Injury> I'm guessing that it's going to be less about giving Brook a permanent handicap (like partial or total blindness or loss of use of a limb or what have you) and more about having a strong visual indicator of how much Brooklyn has been through, something that immediately tells you this is not the same Brooklyn who disappeared just a few minutes ago, from the perspective of the clan and possibly the readers. Because of Brook's appearance and the fact that he's going from just under 20 to pushing 40 in human terms, it's going to be tough to make him really look older, aside from possibly making him a little taller. Even if his hair wasn't already white, he wouldn't be old enough to start going grey or getting wrinkles, and designs for animation aren't always capable of showing subtle differences in a person's face at 20 and that same face at 40. None of the gargoyles really looked that much older in "Future Tense" (though thanks to a super talented voice cast, they all sounded a little older). But they all had something changed about their appearances to set them apart from the clan that Goliath knew.

Of course, this is just speculation on my part an Brooklyn's permanent injury may be something that has more of an effect on him. But until we know different, my money is on broken horn or highly visible scar.

Angela's Whisper> While I think it does make sense when you know the basic idea of what angela said to Broadway, there was obviously still a lot of confusion about it. As readers, it's pretty obvious to us that Brooklyn is not a happy camper and we kind of expect that the characters in the story see it as well. But Broadway and Angela wouldn't be the first couple in history to be kind of unaware of what's going on with a friend or family member due to being newly in love. For all the unhappiness we've seen him exhibit, Brooklyn may still well be trying to hide his feelings from his clan and he certainly isn't talking about it. Angela doesn't know him all that well yet as she hasn't been with the clan that long. And then there are the distracting little matters of the gargoyles being revealed to the world, having their home blown up and moving in with a man they don't entirely trust, Thailog's visit to Goliath's intestines, and everything else that's been going on. I think it is understandable that Broadway and Angela aren't aware that Brooklyn feel particularly hurt that they're a couple and he's still all by his lonesome.

Speaking of Goliath's intestines, I think it is entirely possible that Goliath isn't quite 100% again. We know that the powers of stone sleep to heal are not infinite and I think it's more complicated than "it's healed or it isn't". From the Wind Ceremony, we know that most gargoyles who aren't shattered die during the night because, if they survive until dawn, stone sleep will usually heal them just enough so that they awaken the next night and pass away then. In that case, stone sleep can't completely heal whatever ails the gargoyle, but it can slightly postpone the inevitable. So while Goliath is certainly out of mortal danger (not that Thailog was looking to put him in mortal danger in the first place), but he may still have lingering pains and soreness that keep him from being in true fighting form.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Tue, Jan 8, 2008 12:42:32 pm EST from 209.6.248.33

Minor reveal in as Greg today. Bad Guys #3 is called "Estranged" and will take us to Paris.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Tue, Jan 8, 2008 12:40:47 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

As soon as I read that Brooklyn would have a permanent injury, I thought 'there go's a horn...' Glad I'm not the only one who thought that :) I really can't see Brook going with a robotic anything, unless he was on his deathbed and someone else made the call.
chris
posted @ Tue, Jan 8, 2008 9:59:37 am EST from 66.211.201.24

Ask Greg> Wow. I wasn't really expecting a straight answer to my question.

Greg said, "I really didn't think this was much of a mystery." and "To some extent, it feels like I'm cheating as a storyteller by explaining this. Either it's working or it's not."

Actually I think it does work. The story and the characters portray everything Greg explained. The potential confusion comes from the fact that alternate interpretations are possible. Greg has taught us to be suspicious; what seems obvious is not always true. (Although I admit that Angela and Broadway are among the least "tricky" characters in the series.)

If Greg had answered my question with a Weisman reponse, I would have watched the next few issues for some revelation, but eventually would have come to the same conclusion that Greg gave.
Phil - [p1anderson at go dot com]
posted @ Tue, Jan 8, 2008 9:34:36 am EST from 134.215.196.82

While it would be terrific irony if Brooklyn were to go blind and thereby be no longer to fall in love at first sigh with every attractive winged female, I sure don't want to see him looking like Geordi LaForge when he gets back from the future.

<<...the way he says "by" makes him sound like a Southern gentleman.>> I say, I say, perhaps Judge Roebling is wearing off on the boy.

171 days left until The Gathering 2008 in Chicago, Illinois!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"So you'd better climb down before you fall and hurt your pride..." - Phil Collins, "It Don't Matter to Me"
posted @ Tue, Jan 8, 2008 7:00:45 am EST from 76.241.154.165

Rebel >> I just got my DVDs today and I watched all of Awakening. Now I have to go back and watch it again just to see those different gargoyles!
The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>^^)> They arrived...earlier than expected...and now I can't stop watching!
posted @ Tue, Jan 8, 2008 4:03:24 am EST from 72.199.225.9

Rebel : "the way he says "by" makes him sound like a Southern gentleman." Glad to see I wasn't the only one to notice that.
Spen
posted @ Tue, Jan 8, 2008 2:31:02 am EST from 66.43.205.110

Rebel> It was fun, back in 2004! :P Glad you're enjoying your purchase.

*********
Just in case anyone missed the announcement amidst the biology discussion, Diamond has listed the TPB with a release date of 1/16/08. Diamond has changed their expected date page before, so this is subject to change until we get confirmation next Monday. Maybe Greg will post some new news soon when he gets word from SLG.
*********
The Gargoyles Pulse
...updated Mondays afternoon/early evening
posted @ Tue, Jan 8, 2008 12:10:52 am EST from 70.15.84.29

Here's another: in part 3 when the trio are on that balcony watching the motorcycle, the stone gargoyle next to them looks an awful lot like the little green gargoyle from demona's clan in city of stone. Haha, it's so much fun to actually pick out all the neat things in these episodes.
Rebel
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 11:57:25 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

Oh, and another neat thing: In Awakening part 2, when Xanatos says "1000 years have gone by since the spell was cast", the way he says "by" makes him sound like a Southern gentleman.
Rebel
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 11:23:45 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

LOL, Ntripy.

Totally off-topic > I just got my gargoyles DVDs in today, and I'm watching Awakening part 1 right now. I'm sure someone's mentioned this before, but there's another gargoyle in this episode with Lex's wing design. He only gets a tiny bit of screen time, but with my handy dandy pause button I can get a really good (and crisp) look at him. There's a lot of other cool garg designs in this ep I never noticed before. There's a blue version of Demona's second, and a brown skinned, blonde-haired, horned gargoyle with a relatively unique wing structure. His wing "ribs" flare out from the base of his wings, at the shoulder blade, rather than from the usual place.
Rebel
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 10:47:09 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

Rebel> Well, you could say Broadway is blind... to Brooklyn's angst. :)
Ntripy
"All things are true" "...though who can say if it be true"
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 10:32:30 pm EST from 72.232.196.138

HARVESTER - I've got to agree with you about Xanatos - the actions of his counterpart in "Future Tense" were far more appropriate for a more conventional cliched cartoon super-villain. Goliath sums it up with his statement "Even at his worst, the real Xanatos would never have done the things you have done." (Paraphrased from memory.)
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:44:49 pm EST from 4.245.19.216

HoE: True. But it always seemed odd to me that some very "Future Tense"-esque things will happen to Brooklyn and to Lex's clone, but no mention was ever made of Broadway's blindness. It seems weird that that should get left out. Anyway, if it does happen, it's certainly more likely to happen to Broadway or Hollywood than Brooklyn. I was just throwing that possibility out there.
Rebel
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:18:04 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

Rebel: Remember that not everything in the vision has come to pass. The main catalyst, Goliath and pals being gone forty years, didn't happen. Also, it's unlikely that Xanatos would ever try to conquer the world a la the style of a James Bond villain. Things are working just fine for him under the current form of government. Xanatos seems prudent enough to leave well enough alone, in that case.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Hopefully, we should appreciate that given points in time are not so significant as the nature of what is impressed on the mind, and how it is retained and used." -Yes ("Remembering High the Memory")
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:54:01 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

I think that a blind Brooklyn might be too close to Hudson's being blind in one eye. Greg will probably find something less redundant.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:30:36 pm EST from 4.245.19.216

PGF: Because I know enough about emotions to know that that they're funny things.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Hopefully, we should appreciate that given points in time are not so significant as the nature of what is impressed on the mind, and how it is retained and used." -Yes ("Remembering High the Memory")
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:03:24 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

That Tvtropes site is awesome, I didn't know about it-a whole lot of gargoyles references.

Brooklyn-I didn't even think of cybernetic implants-that would be interesting. A blind Brooklyn-creepy. I think that may be a little too morbid though. I really don't want a plethora of Brooklyn Angst stories.

HoE-yeah I figured Goliath's emotions were getting hte better of him. Though I gotta wonder why it took them three days to discuss it.
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 7:57:45 pm EST from 64.148.27.152

Anglea, Broadway, and Brooklyn: I'm a little disappointed. I'd hoped that the moment in issue 7 *was* those three getting with the program, but at least we have a confirmed comprehension for Goliath, and it's also Brook's fault for not saying anything. Part of me wants a serious "get over it" chewing-out to Brooklyn to happen before Timedancer. I don't really feel any sympathy for him, and I hope Timedancer doesn't suggest that poor Brooklyn "deserves" a mate.

Gargoyles has spawned a few more trope names

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YuppieCouple
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosRoulette

Feel proud, because Tvtropes.org is awesome. :)
Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream"--Shirley Jackson
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 7:41:54 pm EST from 216.36.154.204

Part of me is wondering if maybe Brooklyn might lose his eyes, ala Broadway in "Future Tense", and then obtain some sort of sonar collar. So far, we know that Brentwood will sorta follow Lex's "Future Tense" path, Brooklyn will closely resemble his "Future Tense" self (and will also be 40 years older), but no mention has ever been made of Broadway OR Hollywood losing their eyes, so I wonder if that unfortunate occurrence might be hoisted on to Brooklyn?
Rebel
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 7:40:52 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

*POSSIBLE SPOILER*

PGF: I don't think Goliath wanted to leave without trying to patch things between him and Elisa. At the time he was talking to Macbeth, there was still that thought that Elisa's "I love you" might have been forced out by the fact that he was painting the courtyard a nice shade of arterial red.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Hopefully, we should appreciate that given points in time are not so significant as the nature of what is impressed on the mind, and how it is retained and used." -Yes ("Remembering High the Memory")
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 7:40:13 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

Brook's injury> The broken horn is an idea I hadn't heard before. I like it, but it seems to me that Greg has hinted it'd be something more serious. A lost arm or leg is really interesting and I guess a cybernetic replacement is possible, but I dunno if that feels right to me, or maybe it's just such a new idea. Obviously Brook with a robotic arm/leg would take some getting used to for everyone. I guess I always figured it was something more along the lines of Hudson's blind and scarred eye, except bigger, like a massive scar across his torso or something. Though I suppose if Goliath didn't scar from Halloween, it'd have to be more serious than Thailog's attack. Of course Greg has mentioned that part of the reason Hudson scarred might've been because it was an injury inflicted through magic, sorta. I dunno, just thinking out loud.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 7:14:24 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

All that I can say on the biology discussion is that gargoyles and gargoyle beasts would have to be closely related, since they share the common trait of stone sleep. I think it would be too far-fetched for a mammalian species and a reptilian species to reach that trait independently.

I think that Cuchulain and Merlin will be in the Shari-narrated flashbacks of #8. I've looked over what I know about the Stone of Destiny's history (combined with what we know from the series and from the hints in #8), and here are what would probably be the key points in the Stone of Destiny's history after Eremon was crowned upon it:

1. Something involving Cuchulain (though we don't know the details). This would take place somewhere around the early 1st century A.D. (in "The Hound of Ulster", Mr. Dugan says that Cuchulain had his original battle with the Banshee "nigh on two thousand years ago"), while the Stone would still have been in Ireland, under the name of the Lia Fail. (There aren't any actual legends connecting Cuchulain with it - but on the other hand, there aren't any actual legends connecting him with banshees or gargoyle beasts, either.)

2. Its role as the stone from the Sword in the Stone, with the young Arthur pulling Excalibur from it. Merlin must have borrowed it from Ireland for the purpose. It's worth noting that, in Robert de Boron's "Merlin" (a medieval text in which the Sword in the Stone first appears), it's stated that the stone disappeared after Arthur was finally acclaimed king - presumably Merlin had sent it back.

3. Around this same time (circa A.D. 500) many of the Irish emigrated to southwestern Scotland, founding a kingdom there named Dalriada. Their leader, Fergus, was the younger brother of the then-Irish High King, and persuaded his older brother to lend him the Stone of Destiny (apparently to be crowned upon in Dalriada) - and never returned it. (I suspect that, after that, Fergus had a difficult time borrowing anything else from his brother.) The Stone was set up in Iona, which became the spiritual center of Dalriada (thanks in particular to St. Columba, who is said to have used the Stone for a pillow in his final hours) - and where all the Kings of Scotland until Canmore's reign were buried (including - officially - Macbeth).

4. At that time, what we now know as Scotland was inhabited by the Picts; the Scots were the Irish who had settled in Dalriada under Fergus (named after Scota, naturally - at least, according to legend). In 843, however, a descendant of Fergus, Kenneth mac Alpin, took over "Pictland", renaming it "Scotland", and became its first king. (And, yes, he was an ancestor of the familiar Scottish kings from the series, including Macbeth, Duncan, Canmore, Kenneth II, etc.) Legend says that he carried this out by inviting all the Pictish nobles to a banquet, then seating them on chairs with built-in trap doors that, at his signal, dropped them into a cellar below to their deaths. He moved the Stone of Destiny to Scone, where it was used for coronations thereafter.

5. Edward I's theft of the Stone of Destiny in 1296. The Scots, incidentally, made no serious effort to get it back at the time; it's said that they believed that wherever the Stone of Destiny was, there the Scottish kings would rule. And in the end, in 1603, a Scottish king did become King of England (James VI/James I), though whether that was thanks to the Stone or not, we'll never know.

I saw the "Xanatos Gambit" entry at TV Tropes too. Neat, isn't it?
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 7:09:01 pm EST from 4.245.19.216

Purple >>

I'm guessing that Brooklyn's injury will be something pretty significant and potentially life-changing. I don't think it will be a minor injury, because if it were something minor (and not shocking) I don't think it would be worth even including it. My guess is that he's going to lose an important body part. I'm thinking that his injury will occur during the 2198 spin-off, and before he gets whisked off to another time period, he'll have that body part cybernetically replaced.
Rebel
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 6:44:19 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

I had a really good personal point to add to the bio discussion, but I lost it and don't want to type it again. Briefer point: the mammalian traits of the gargates, IMO, are a case of convergent evolution, and in no way indicates that they are more closely related to mammals than to reptiles, or vice versa. Argument: birds are also warm-blooded, but further study has found them to be more closely related to reptiles than to any mammlian species. At some point in both lines, both groups developed a form of warmbloodness.
Asatira
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 6:28:16 pm EST from 68.119.84.138

Matt: Well I suppose Brooklyn could be hiding his feelings. He never seemed the type of person who held his feelings in check very well though. I have a feeling he's going to say or do something incredibally stupid regarding Angela and Broadway right before he's whisked away by the Phoenix Gate, so he would feel guilty about it for forty years.

And totally off topic: Anyone have any ideas about what Brooklyn's "permanent injury will be?" One of his horns broken is my guess
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 6:28:06 pm EST from 64.148.27.152

I think Greg's Angela/Broadway/Brooklyn answer makes a lot of sense, really. And he makes a good point about the new couple not seeing all the Poor Brook moments we are. I'll bet if I look back at 1-7 every Poor Brook moment will be when the couple isn't around, doesn't see him or everyone is busy doing something else. No worries, I think Broadway and Angela are finally gonna get with the program sometime between 8 and 10.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 6:20:55 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

*runs away from biology discussion*

Spoilers for #7 (Who hasn't read it yet?)

Interesting latest answer from Greg. Frankly, I'm suprised that Angela and Broadway are that ignorant to Brooklyn's feelings. I mean they have to realize he's not behaving like Lex when he's around them at least-can't they pick up vibes? I can understand Goliath not realizing till now-he's had his own personal problems lately. But Broadway grew up with Brooklyn and Angela always struck me as particularly perceptive. I guess when gargoyles fall in love they fall hard.

And I'm assuming Goliath isn't still physically hurt. Unless some wounds take more than one day to heal? I didn't think they did. Xanatos should get the gargoyles their own psychologist heh.
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 6:02:22 pm EST from 64.148.27.152

Never mind.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Hopefully, we should appreciate that given points in time are not so significant as the nature of what is impressed on the mind, and how it is retained and used." -Yes ("Remembering High the Memory")
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 5:53:05 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

The curious thing about gargoyles having their own phylum is that I know gargoyles possess the three main traits of the Phylum Chordata: a notochord, a dorsal nerve cord, and a post-anal tail. I'm wondering if Gargata should be a class, but I imagine others in here are more learned about such things.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Hopefully, we should appreciate that given points in time are not so significant as the nature of what is impressed on the mind, and how it is retained and used." -Yes ("Remembering High the Memory")
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 5:52:39 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

Yes, I meant Class, of course. Thanks Spen.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 5:50:15 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Matt : I think you meant that Gargates have their own *class* not phylum (since as far as I can tell, they are vertabrates, which would put them in the phylum Chordata, right?)
Spen
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 5:49:17 pm EST from 66.43.205.110

Since the last time we had a Garg biology discussion, I've done some thought into the six limbs thing. I think I have a good hypothesis which explains a lot more than just the six limbs thing. Suffice to say that the six limbs thing does not disturb my synapsid theory of origin at all in my mind.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 5:31:11 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Because I like playing Captain Obvious...

Having six limbs is the one trait that makes me wonder if gargoyles belong in the class Mammalia or should be classified in their own unique class. There are no other mammals, living or in the fossil record, that have six limbs.
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"Look, you're British, so scale it down a bit." - Eddie Izzard
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 5:26:03 pm EST from 76.241.154.165

I didn't say the coelocanth was more mammalian than a fish. I said it was more closely related to mammals than to a shark. Big difference.

And given the current information, Gargates fit into NONE of the existing categories. They are truly unique in the animal kingdom and deserve their own Phylum. I believe a bird is more closely related to a crocodile than a gargate is to either a reptile or mammal. I think they have their roots among the synapsids, the mammal-like reptiles, but they are neither reptiles nor mammals, though they do share traits with them. But so what? Lots of animals share traits, some come from a common ancestor with that trait, some developed it independently. Which of these scenarios is applicable to gargates is debatable, but the most likely combination is a little of both.
My point is, Gargates have as many similarities with mammals as birds do. And birds are not mammals. Neither are gargates in my opinion.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 5:21:26 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

I'm looking at the broad vertebrate grouping. The five groups (or four depending on your definition- I sway toward four- birds are friggin weird). Fish, amphibian, reptile, bird, mammal. Evolution is funny. Some characteristics are universal, while others jump around. (just curious- how do you say a ceolcanth is more mammalian than fish?)

anyways, as ancient as gargoyles may be, and without dissecting one (which would be blasphemous!) I contend that they fall into *current* broad category of mammal.
chris
why do we build castles in the sky?
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 4:27:28 pm EST from 66.211.201.24

Chris> I get what you are saying, but keep in mind that classification doesn't always mean evolutionary grouping. Crocodiles and Turtles are both classified as reptiles, but a crocodile is far more closely related to birds than turtles. Similiarly, a coelocanth and a shark are both classified as fish, but a coelocanth is much more closely related to mammals than a shark.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 4:08:53 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

chris> Quite so. Always been interested in it, and though I wasn't a bio major, the one I did pick focused on the subject well enough to make me happy. ^..^
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 3:58:08 pm EST from 199.38.51.134

touche :)
a fellow biologist, kerry?
chris
why do we build castles in the sky?
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 3:54:44 pm EST from 66.211.201.24

Especially the jaw and inner ear. Those are used as diagnostic criteria to indentify fossil mammals.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 3:51:53 pm EST from 199.38.51.134

chris> If those two criteria were all that defined a mammal, you would be totally correct.

However, we don't know how many middle ear bones they have, jaw joint structure (related to the inner ear thing), how many chambers are in the heart, or whether they have one or two knobs at the base of the skull. Any or all of these could disqualify them from the mammalian ranks.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 3:49:47 pm EST from 199.38.51.134

agreed (garbeasts and gargoyles being closely related). Though if they are alive *now,* doesn't that make them 'modern?' sharks, turtles, and crocodilians haven't change much in the last several million years, but fit into 'modern' definitions.
smiles. I love this place.
chris
why do we build castles in the sky?
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 3:47:45 pm EST from 66.211.201.24

Quarrymen: not to mention they were featured in the Dyiung of Light episode, mentioned or made cameos in Ransom,Runaways,Broadway goes to Hollywood,Generations,
and of course the Main antagonists in Angels of the NIght. yet we see them a lot less in the comics. I doubt 8 and 9 would even mention them.
Starlioness
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 3:42:58 pm EST from 24.18.251.55

Chris> Some synapsids also had hair and nursed their young. Your definition is only accurate when discussing MODERN animals. Could Gargates be mammals? Sure. But there are a lot of reasons to discredit that idea. Generally, I think that both mammals and gargates evolved from synapsids, meaning they have a common ancestor, but are not related.
No one is going to throw things at you for thinking they are mammals.

But one thing is very clear, gargoyles and beasts are both gargates and are clearly closely related.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 3:38:49 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

If garbeasts nurse their young also, I would place them in the mammalian group. Even the reptilian *looking* ones. By the most basic definition, and organism that has hair (garbeasts may have whiskers that may not be a readily visible as fur/hair, like cetaceans) and lactates milk for it's young is a mammal. And gargoyles would fit squarely in this definition (regardless of what Greg says -ducks for cover at the projectile objects that I know will be hurled at me...)

The synapsid definition, while accurate, is really, really broad. But I am glad to hear they have been considered in the general mammalian realm. Otherwise my suspension of disbelief would hit the wall. I've seen some places say they are reptilian, which just makes me want to cry.

(still ducking for cover)
chris
why do we build castles in the sky?
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 3:33:26 pm EST from 66.211.201.24

01/16/08
The Gargoyles Pulse
...updated Mondays afternoon/early evening
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 3:26:18 pm EST from 159.240.11.254

************************************************
01/16/07
Gargoyles Trade Paperback Volume 1 Clan Building
************************************************
The Gargoyles Pulse
...updated Mondays afternoon/early evening
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 3:25:43 pm EST from 159.240.11.254

I just checked http://www.diamondcomics.com/shipping/shipping_010908kf.txt and Gargoyles Volume 1 isn't listed.

Just to be sure I have a current list of who's entered Ed's contest so far, here's the list of people who've entered: Ed Reynolds, Purplegoldfish, Matt, dph of rules, Vicky, and Asatira.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 3:24:13 pm EST from 98.20.169.206

chris> Greg's said that gargoyles and gargoyle beasts do not fit within the reptile or mammal category. They're something different: gargates. We've been kicking around theories on gargoyle evolution, and I think the prevailing opinion is that they evolved from synapsids (though which kind is up for debate).

He's also said that the taxonomic relationship between gargoyles and garg beasts is like the one chimpanzees have with humans, only it's closer with gargs and beasts. So they're actually very closely related, and have their own phylogenic class, in which they're the only extant species.

However, going from just what's in the series, your theories would make sense. Here's what the archive has so far on garg biology: http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/archives.php?lid=128
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 3:10:09 pm EST from 199.38.51.134

kevin (and all)> i'm one of the biology geeks ;) but i have my own perspective on the gargoyle-biology world that may offend others (love to all). I personally think garbeasts are very different from the gargoyles we know and love. I generally believe that gargoyles *must* be mammals, while it is very likely that garbeasts are reptilian. I'll be happy to debate anyone on these issues, they've been rolling around in my head for, well, a decade :):)
chris
why do we build castles in the sky?
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 2:35:09 pm EST from 66.211.201.24

Kevin> I'm sure the biology geeks (meant respectfully) can answer this in more detail, but basically, there are two species of gargates: gargoyles and gargoyle beasts. Bronx is a gargoyle beast, as are Boudicca and Fu-Dog. Gargoyle beasts are apparently much rarer that gargoyles, which is why we didn't see many of them in the TV series. You can read more about them here: http://gargoyles.dracandros.com/Gargoyle_Beasts
.
Phil - [p1anderson at go dot com]
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 1:57:10 pm EST from 134.215.196.82

So I was wondering, and have been for a long time... what kind of Gargoyle is Bronx?
Kevin - [Darkwraith20 at aim dot com]
Beans!
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 1:40:19 pm EST from 66.245.146.238

Jurgan: I love TVtropes.org: there's actually several tropes named after Xanatos. I figured everybody knew about them, though, so I didn't mention it.

I can see the rest of the Coldtrio showing up, but can't assume it will mean that Coldstone and Coldfire will stay with the Manhattan Clan for good. Though it might be that the two of them don't catch Coldsteel, but get to understand that they can fight him better with others at their side. But it seems that the the two mates will still feel somehow more "responsible" for Coldstone beyond how all heroes are responsible for stopping villains.
Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream"--Shirley Jackson
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 1:01:35 pm EST from 216.36.154.204

Jurgan> Way cool!

Reminds me of my find on wikipedia last week that discovered that the "Mary Sue" litmus test began with the Gargoyles fandom.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 12:53:32 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

<<I have no doubt Demona could find some converts, she's powerful, she's charismatic. She nearly hooked Brooklyn, but went a step too far. That being said, it's doubtful as to how long she could keep them.>>

Hitler and Stalin were able to amass millions of followers. Demona's biggest hurdle is the lack of numbers to be rallied to her cause.

Comic speculation: For all we know, Fox's shoes could turn out to be nothing more than a randomly overhyped detail designed to distract our attention. Regarding the Quarrymen, we should keep in mind that so far the published issues of the comic book have only covered a few days worth of actual time. I'm sure we'll see them again soon in the chronology.

172 days left until The Gathering 2008 in Chicago, Illinois!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"Rarely is the question asked: 'Is our children learning?'" - George W. Bush
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 12:49:56 pm EST from 24.106.128.24

Off-topic from the current discussion. I was surprised to find out Gargoyles concepts have worked their way into the mainstream: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit

Cool, no?
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 12:22:59 pm EST from 68.58.182.37

I feel that Cu Chullain and Merlin in 8 and 9 will almost have to be done through Shari's narrative flashback. Involving them in a bigger way really would be way too much for this story. I'd place big bucks on Cu Chullain and Merlin appearing on scroll-like pages in sepia tones following the words "The story is told, though who can say if it be true,..."

Plus, I feel that Merlin's modern day reappearance is something that more fittingly and more poignantly will occur in the Pendragon spinoff.

And those of you who say the story would be too heavy with Coldstone and Coldfire showing up are not thinking about how much stuff is in each issue. Look at #7, you've got Macbeth (complete with his coronation and 1950 flashback), the entire Manhattan Clan, Fox and her new shoes, Xanatos, Coldsteel, Coyote, Gathelus, Scota, the Coldtrio backstory, Eremon and Eber Finn, Moses, Jacob, the Stone of Destiny, Thailog, Brentwood and Shari, Owen, the Coyote Diamond, the Mutates, Al and Dr. Sato, Elisa, King Arthur, Griff and two new gargoyles... All in ONE issue. And we have two more in this story. Surely there will be space for Coldstone and Coldfire.

Like, I said, I'm pretty confident, but I could be wrong, we'll see.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 12:19:51 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Matt, that's a thought I've had before too. If Coldfire and Coldstone are actively chasing after Coldsteel, it does seem very likely they could show up in the upcoming issues. Whether they will defeat him and join the clan, however, remains to be seen. I certainly hope they will...as that will help justify "Clan-Building" as the title. As others have pointed out, clan building has been occurring all along with other clans, but when I first heard that title I guess I kind of expected some serious clan building to actually occur in the Manhattan clan. We'll be getting Brooklyn and co., but I kind of wanted more than that.

Having said that, it would be unlike Greg to get rid of Coldsteel (or any other villain).
Rebel
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 12:11:32 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

I think it's a real possibility that Coldstone and Coldfire will reappear soon. With his appearance in "Reunion" and then Shari's telling of their backstory in "The Rock" there's no reason not to (unless the story doesn't go that way). It also doesn't seem right to separate the Coldtrio, featuring Coldsteel but not the others, though I suppose its bound to happen at some point.
I've also been thinking off and on since we got the solicitation for "Rock & Roll" about Cu Chullain. While it seems likely we'll get his backstory from Shari, I would love to see the gargoyles encounter him in person, and I predict we'll see just that.
As for Merlin, I don't know how this will work, but I have an unexplainable feeling that he'll also actually appear, not just in a flashback. Part of that is due to the solicitation where Merlin is included among those who "...strive to find it (the stone), possess it and learn its darkest secrets."
I'm really looking forward to "Rock & Roll" both because of "The Rock" and because of all the characters listed in the solicitation. But I'm trying not to get too far ahead. We've still got Yama and the Ishimura clan in BG#2 "The Lost."
Phil - [p1anderson at go dot com]
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 12:04:21 pm EST from 134.215.196.82

Matt >> Your theory sounds very solid and logical. It actually would make sense for them (Coldstone and Coldfire) to appear. Very plausible indeed...

We have yet to see if that will happen though... ;)
The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>^^)> They'll be here soon...
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 12:00:50 pm EST from 72.199.225.9

I think it'd be great to have Coldstone and Coldfire actively back in the story so soon. I think my only reluctance is there seems to be a lot going on already, with a lot of people. I'm having a hard time picturing all that in the next two issues. Not that it won't, it's just a lot. 3-5 got a lot done in their issues, so it's possible. And having Coldstone and Coldfire would be the poetic answer for Coldsteel. I think Macbeth and Arthur may do well on their own if against Coyote or Xanatos.

Hmm. That makes me wonder. How active will Xanatos be in the upcoming story? Is he going to be mostly behind the scenes, or do you think he'll make a more direct hand in the action if it looks like it'll be needed?
Asatira
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 11:43:55 am EST from 97.82.58.208

"Rock & Roll" - From the Holy Land to the British Isles... everyone wants a piece of the Rock. Xanatos, Macbeth, Coldsteel, Thailog, Merlin, Cu Chullain and the gargoyles strive to find it, possess it and learn its darkest secrets.

"Rock of Ages" - David Xanatos makes his final play for the Rock - in broad daylight when the gargoyles sleep as stone! But will the Illuminati be pleased with the end result?

Will Cu Chullain be part of the fight in 1996 or will his involvment be covered in a Shari story? And Merlin? Did Arthur find him and has he joined the England Clan or will his involvment be shown in a Shari story as well?

Assuming Cu Chullain and Merlin are not involved in 1996, then we have for the final battle Xanatos (maybe in armor, maybe not), Coldsteel, and Coyote 5.0 VERSES Macbeth and Arthur VERSES Thailog! Will Macbeth and Arthur need Coldsteel's and Coldfire's help?

Matt> I like your theory of Coldstone and Coldfire. The big question that you mentioned is will the Coldsteel threat be taken care of allowing them to join the Manhattan Clan? It does fit quite nicely with the Clan Building arc.

I would very much like to see Coldstone and Coldfire again, and I think they would be an awesome addition to the Clan since they do not turn to stone. Plus, with them there, I would look forward to maybe more personal conversations between the rookery brothers.

Todd> I also see your points. It seems kind of crammed right now to introduce more characters to the fight.
The Gargoyles Pulse
...updated Mondays afternoon/early evening
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:40:27 am EST from 159.240.11.254

Yes, well, I still think I'm right, or at least close, but we'll see, right?
I think the Cu Chullain back story will be told by Shari in a page and all the King Arthur back story will be a page or two. The rest of the Stone's backstory will be a page at most. Fox's shoes will be a couple pages at most in the next two issues, I think, could be wrong there, cuz who knows whats up with those shoes. Even leaving a few pages set aside for New York happenings, we havn't filled up a book's worth yet, much less two.
Now obviously the real meat here is centered around London and the goings on there, but I still think it is very possible Coldstone and Coldfire will show up. I mean, you didn't expect to see the Mutates, Al and Dr. Sato in this story either, did you?
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 9:10:48 am EST from 24.207.163.239

MATT - Very true. Of course, we know that there'll be a lot of things in those two issues. The rest of the story of the Stone of Destiny after it reached Ireland (including whatever its connection is to Cuchulain, its role in King Arthur's Sword in the Stone exploit, its being moved from Ireland to Scotland, Edward I seizing it and taking it to Westminster, etc.), Fox's new shoes, the proper introduction of the new London gargoyles, the conflict between King Arthur and Macbeth being resolved, etc. (And that's just the London events - for all we know, Greg might also want to show a few more things going on in New York during this time.)
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 8:52:18 am EST from 4.244.215.243

Todd> Well, Greg has two issues to make it work, that is a lot of space, especially when you consider how chock full of characters issues like "Invitation Only" are.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 7:52:07 am EST from 24.207.163.239

Sorry for the double post, but:

* CONTAINS SPOILERS *

MATT - That's an interesting idea. The only reservation I have about it is that Coldstone and Coldfire's sudden arrival might make the story too crowded (since we've already got, in just the London part of the story, Hudson, Lexington, Macbeth, Xanatos, Coldsteel, Coyote 5.0, King Arthur, and the London gargoyles - both Griff and the two new members). On the other hand, Coldstone and Coldfire are connected to Coldsteel, and Shari dealt with them in her story to Thailog, so maybe their involvement won't be a last-minute, U.S. Cavalry riding out of nowhere, matter.

Of course, Macbeth and King Arthur will be able to function in the daytime as well - but they could use the extra help.

* SPOILERS END *
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 7:40:35 am EST from 4.244.212.152

I might have said this before (I can't remember for certain), but:

We've often discussed here how "The Goliath Chronicles" influenced us into making certain assumptions about the Quarrymen and Xanatos, assumptions that we had to struggle against, and assumptions that the comic book has clearly challenged. But there's another assumption that I suspect a lot of us made about events in the Gargoyles Universe after "Hunter's Moon", one also influenced by "The Goliath Chronicles": the notion that the dominant issue (close to the only issue) would be the public's hostility towards gargoyles.

Although we talk a lot about the Quarrymen being almost constantly present in "The Goliath Chronicles", they only appeared in five of the twelve episodes that followed "The Journey". In two of these ("And Justice For All" and "Generations"), they only had minor roles, and they only appeared in "For It May Come True" in the frame at the beginning and end. They simply seemed omnipresent because almost every single episode focused on the public's hostility (including episodes that did not even allude to Castaway's organization, such as "Ransom" and "A Bronx Tail").

In the comic book, on the other hand, so far the public response, after #2, has been more restrained. The Quarrymen are present in #3 and #4, but on a more low-key level than they were in "The Goliath Chronicles" (especially with Castaway wanting them to leave their hammers behind, to ensure against any embarrassing incidents that would damage their image). The radio broadcast at the start of #3 takes a light-hearted approach to the possibility of gargoyles out on Halloween; even more significantly, the threat to the gargoyles in #3 - #5 comes from a fellow gargoyle, Thailog, rather than from hooded vigilantes or panicked mobs.

* SPOILERS FOLLOW *

#7, as the start of the next story, is also clearly set up around other issues - mostly the Stone of Destiny, which Xanatos is apparently plotting to steal.

* SPOILERS END *

It does seem that the comic book will be far less one-note than "The Goliath Chronicles" was, and that our assumption that the No. 1 concern the gargoyles would have to face after "Hunter's Moon" was human xenophobia was as much a case of subtle contamination as the notions of a lunatic Castaway or a completely reformed Xanatos.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 7:36:48 am EST from 4.244.212.152

Well, I think I have a topic to start the week off... I have this idea about Issues 8 and 9.

So, our solicitation for Number 9 came out and reads: "CLAN BUILDING: Chapter 9, "Rock of Ages" - David Xanatos makes his final play for the Rock - in broad daylight when the gargoyles sleep as stone! But will the Illuminati be pleased with the end result? And what's this obsession over Fox's new shoes?"

My first thought was that maybe Jade and Turquesa (with Sun Pendants) could drop by Scotland and save the day, but I was only half serious about that and it was mostly because I wanted to see my beloved Mayan Clan again.

But I did some more thought and here is my theory: We've got Coldsteel involved in Xanatos' plot, right? And we have had a lot of background story for the Coldtrio going on in Issues 6 and 7, right? And the last time we saw Coldstone and Coldfire, they were hot on Coldsteel's trail, right?

See where I'm going? I think Coldstone and Coldfire are gonna save the day in broad daylight because they don't turn to stone, and they are the perfect pair to stop Coldsteel. It only makes sense with all the backstory Greg has been giving us with them that they'd show up soon, and it wasn't until I remembered that in "Possession" Goliath asked the two to join the Clan and Coldfire said, "No, not while he's out there. A greater threat than ever and our responsibility."

And what did Coldstone say after that? "But when that threat has passed, we shall return, I promise." So, I think even before Brook's Timedance begins, Coldstone and Coldfire are gonna rejoin the Clan. It really goes with the Clan-Building theme of course, and the more I think about it, the more it makes sense.

Well?
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 7:29:57 am EST from 24.207.163.239

And away we go on with the show!
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]
It's silly. It's a silly movie. There just isn't much there. Once you take it all apart, there's not much story, is there?- George Lucas on Spider-Man 3
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 5:39:08 am EST from 69.54.209.81

10th!
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 2:01:15 am EST from 75.42.215.164

9th~!!
The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>^^)> They'll be here soon...
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 1:14:31 am EST from 72.199.225.9

Eighth!
aepuise
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 1:12:21 am EST from 69.135.189.245

Lucky seven!
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 12:58:29 am EST from 64.148.27.152

Sixth!
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 12:22:36 am EST from 70.162.221.121

Nevermind, I plead the 5th!!
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 12:10:24 am EST from 98.20.162.230

4th!!
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 12:09:54 am EST from 98.20.162.230

4th
Justin
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 12:09:41 am EST from 74.135.61.121

3rd (I think)
Rebel
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 12:09:04 am EST from 24.227.200.138

2!
Asatira
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 12:01:48 am EST from 97.82.58.208

First
Siren
Don't knock on Death's door. Ring his doorbell and run, he hates that.
posted @ Mon, Jan 7, 2008 12:00:53 am EST from 68.202.76.113