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Gargoyles

The Phoenix Gate

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Comments for the week ending October 20, 2013

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Great review! And those repurposed Afroman lyrics? Pure gold!
Anonymous

I think Hudson will outlive Goliath actually. How he might day, probably just by old age. Although a heroic sacrifice is never out of the picture, Hudson's story has always been about accepting old age, not fearing it. So he probably will live out his expected lifespan, so of he is still alive today, I would say he has between 40 and 60 years left.
Brack

And Dread is now up to Walkabout:

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=370493&page=5

Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.

Has anyone ever thought about how Hudson might die? I mean, he is logically the first of the Manhattan Clan that will die (though other possibilities exist, especially because he could still live many more years). But I do wonder.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" - Sevarius, "Louse"

That makes a lot of sense.
ESG

ESG> It's also worth noting that Hunters Moon was originally conceived as a DTV and therefore slightly more "stand alonish" then a regular episode. Hence it taking time at the beginning to reestablish the show's status quo and ground rules.
Algernon
"Don't blink. Don't even blink. Blink and you're dead. They are fast. Faster than you can believe. Don't turn your back, don't look away, and DON'T blink." ~Tenth Doctor.

That's why I said "next to" no purpose. It doesn't hurt to be reminded of those things, but they'd already been established. And yes, it adds a fine contrast to later events, but between the train Scene and the Scene with Jason in the clocktower, the choice is pretty obvious.
ESG

The train robbery establishes the gargoyles' regular work patrolling the city, shows the fear that the ordinary citizens have towards them, etc. - and contrasts that with the dramatic changes coming in their lives soon afterwards.
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are really good finders

Isn't it strange that Hunter's Moon of all things is the episode that had an important scene cut? It's a three parter, and while the first part is certainly good, a large portion of it could be excised without much trouble. Heck, just cutting the intro train robbery would be enough, since it serves next to no purpose in the overarching story.
ESG

I watched all three parts of "Hunter's Moon" last evening. (A good year for that, with the recent release at last of the DVD for the second half of Season Two.)

I still get a kick out of the Hunter's robot falcon (called "Raptor" in the ending credits), and think it's a pity it only appeared in Part One before being destroyed by Hudson.

I also enjoy the scene where the Renaissance Hunter's fuming that he's lost Demona - who's just a few yards behind him, climbing out of the Arno. No wonder she's got that smirk on her face as she glances at him.

One of the most impressive moments of irony in the series: the scene where Elisa is talking to Jason about how a close friend was attacked and almost killed, and Jason sympathizes - Elisa unaware that Jason was the one who attacked Angela and Jason unaware that Elisa's talking about the gargoyle he almost killed the night before.

One detail I noticed for the first time: the event that prompts Jon to shoot at Goliath and cripple Jason when the latter intervenes is Goliath moving towards Demona when they hear her fighting Brooklyn; Jon mistakes Goliath's act for an attempt to attack Jason. It heightens the tragic nature of Jon's deed, showing how it stemmed from a fatal misinterpretation.

Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are really good finders

Double post, but: http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=12704
Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn.~~C.S. Lewis

Um...No? It wasn't.

The powers that Natsilane had were his, his birthright as the chief of his tribe. Grandmother couldn't do anything to magically help him, as she was forbidden from directly interfering. She even stated that she could not interfere in the episode.

Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
If you are on the wrong road, progress means.. walking back to the right road; ..the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive man~~C.S. Lewis

Wasn't Natsilane's power actually Grandmother supporting him? I don't see why she couldn't do that with anyone.
ESG

ESG> He was the chief. "You are the leader of this band". It was his RESPONSIBILITY. No one else could do it. Goliath tried, but Raven was uninterested. Only Natsilane had the power to fight Raven.
Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
If you are on the wrong road, progress means.. walking back to the right road; ..the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive man~~C.S. Lewis

Was there any reason Grandmother had to get Natsilane's help? You'd think there'd be plenty of people more receptive to her request on that island.
ESG

It doesn't look bloody or sanguine to me, but it does look kindly.
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.

BRAINIAC - Maybe it's the same phenomenon at work that has Chinese dragons being peaceful and gentle rather than the fire-breathing marauders of European myth and legend.
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are really good finders

Paul> It's only a penumbral eclipse; you'll see some overall darkening rather than the "pure" black of totality. From my understanding, the best view-time for the full moon is 7:38 PM EDT and the peak of the eclipse is twelve minutes later (and continuing to lighten for 2 hours after that).

Of note are some of the other names for this moon. It's also known as the Blood or Sanguine Moon, but if you travel to China, it's the Kindly Moon. Quite an intriguing shift in nomenclature there.

Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

And a lunar eclipse too, I believe.
Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]

Tonight is the Hunter's Moon.
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are really good finders

ESG> He summoned Coldsteel and later Coldstone and Coldfire. To quote ASK GREG.

"Xanatos was trying to obtain the Stone for himself and give a fake to the Illuminati, but after being told how pointless that was, he went ahead and gave the "original" to Fleur to take to the Illuminati.

The robots were all a distraction, a feint. A way to make Macbeth and Company feel like they accomplished something when in fact they did not. (No sense giving them a reason to investigate further.) Bringing Coldstone and Coldfire in amounts to the same thing. The transport was happening during the day. So X needed witnesses that his attack "failed". Did he have additional reasons for wanting our ColdCouple back in the picture? Well, is he Xanatos?"

Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.

Calling in Coldsteel to steal the Stone of Destiny seems like a foolish decision on Xanatos' part. It's something it seems he can only do once, so why waste it on an occasion where, say, 5 Steel Clan robots would do just as well? Furthermore, even if the clan doesn't explode on him over this, Coldstone is going to be angry. And we all know how much of a loose cannon Coldstone is.

Knowing what we do about Coyote, it seems more a contrivance to advance its development than anything.

ESG

That's a fair point, yeah. I'll concede that.
Harlan Phoenix
The enemy is clever. We're smaller but whatever. When we put it together, I'll form the head.

<<You could actually cut out that scene and nothing about the story would really change all that much.>>

I disagree, Goliath needed to see what Demona has done. He was at the point where he had to consider killing her only to learn the lesson she wouldn't. The deaths had to be real, and pointless. I think a lot would be lost if the scene was taken out.

Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.

I doubt the armless woman would have survived, if she did turn back at sunup, she probably would have died from blood loss. I would have likes to seen a story with her next of kin joining the Quarrymen.
Brack

The noted interactions with Adrienne Bello make it seem like the big thing was whether or not the potential was there to dwell on the repercussions of the situation. It goes back to that chalk line of the body in Temptation: the fact a death had occurred at some nebulous point in time was important, but KILLING someone was not important. Bello thought the episode was fine because the scene didn't dwell on it, so it wouldn't scare young children.

I actually think the scene where Demona shoots off the woman's arms makes an alarming amount of sense. The scene is incredibly self contained and actually has no real tangible repercussions. We never see the woman with no arms, for example. By the time City of Stone ends, the narrative is so focused on resolving Macbeth and Demona that the people Demona killed are no longer relevant. You could actually cut out that scene and nothing about the story would really change all that much. It's structurally irrelevant to how the story resolves and those people have no real bearing on...anything. For all Greg Weisman discusses the Magus's death to represent a war having stakes, City of Stone (if not exactly Avalon's war) really has no stakes for some of its more gruesome casualties.

It's pretty easy to see why that scene would be allowed: it's quick and it's never revisited again, in a series prided on serialization, continuity, and repercussions. Structurally speaking, it's a completely harmless scene and perhaps among Gargoyles's tamest by virtue of being one of the few majorly violent scenes to have absolutely no repercussions. Logic'd out, it's a pretty reasonable and understandable S&P compromise. "Sure, feel free to blow off the arms of the woman that is dehumanized into a statue and we'll never see again."

I'd like to see that armless woman in a future story.

Harlan Phoenix
The enemy is clever. We're smaller but whatever. When we put it together, I'll form the head.

Yeah, waaaay more disturbing, to me. I mean, that woman's going to wake up with no arms! That's horrific. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a brilliant scene, but my jaw was literally hanging open as I watched.
Melissa
Rewatching Gargoyles and blogging about it - http://ramblingsofpicturebox.blogspot.com/

Greg Weisman once said that they put that scene in because S&P wanted to avoid too many cases of Demona smashing the entire statue. (With S&P presumably not considering that just smashing the arms could be even more disturbing....)
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are really good finders

I'm not saying anything new, I'm sure - but I just finished recapping "City of Stone, Part Two" and I'm STILL flabbergasted over that scene where Demona is smashing stone people and shoots one woman's arms off. Just...amazed. I'm astonished 18 years after the fact about what this show got away with.
Melissa
Rewatching Gargoyles and blogging about it - http://ramblingsofpicturebox.blogspot.com/

Interesting thanks
Brack

Some Geek> AMAZING!!! AWESOME!!! :)
Battle Beast - [Canada]
I did it! I watched all 485 Best picture nominees in 365 days!

Yes, because that quantity still only has a single unit of one thousand years.
Harlan Phoenix
The enemy is clever. We're smaller but whatever. When we put it together, I'll form the head.

Is it still a millennium if its 1001 years?
Brack

Brack: I generally agree with you, except that the Children were only exiled for a single millenniUM.

"Millennia" is the plural of "millennium."

Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]

Me again
Algernon

ESG> If you're refering to the Gathering still going on in 2198, keep in mind that 200 years in the "real world" is only a little over 8 years on Avalon. What is time to a race of immortals?
Anonymous

Oberon's children were banished so they could live among mortals and learn from them. One would assume the Gathering would partly be to show what they'd learned. It's also a celebration of sorts, and Oberon being Oberon wouldn't want anyone to snub his invites. Taking place for such an extended period seems to have little reason though.

On another note, I figured out what a concussion beam cannon is. Dingo used one during "Upgrade."

ESG

You are probably right... and you make me consider something I've never thought about before: Why exactly did the Gathering happen? What was its purpose and why did it happen when it did?
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" - Sevarius, "Louse"

Matt > I don't think Goliath would have been compelled to go to the Gathering. The way I see it, the Gathering was basically just for the Children to show what they've "learned" over the millennia. Goliath would not have any reason to be there. Just as Fox was not invited, I'm sure other half breeds born during the exile weren't invited as well, Alexander being a royal exception. These half breeds were not sent out to learn humility, so they would not be required to attend.
Brack

Some cool Gargoyles cosplay. Apologies if it's already been posted.

http://i.imgur.com/CYiesuU.jpg

Lurker

A small and inconsequential update. A couple weeks ago I tossed out a random question here -- basically, i was preparing to show Gargoyles to some uninitiated-but-genre-friendly people and trying to figure what episodes to show. Well, despite my thought to show a selection of hand-picked episodes to showcase different things (like an episode around mythology and one about Shakespeare and one about xantos gambits etc), several people (including Greg W himself) suggested I show Awakening.

So this weekend I showed Awakening (only had time for 3 episodes). But the reaction was "You're always talking about this show and figured it might be a fun-but-typical cartoon. I was not expecting to be as hooked in and interested as I am now. Seriously, bring it again some time so I can watch more"

Coincidentally, this person is a major comics and Star Wars guy. So I pointed out that Greg W also worked on Spec Spidey and Young Justice, and is working on Rebels, so now he's totally in to checking out that stuff too at some point. ;-)

SomeGeek

Haven't been here in a while. Just a heads up that Greg Weisman is interested in showing "The Last" (Team Atlantis/Gargoyles crossover episode) at a con next year, and I'm trying to see if I can get any fan artists/musicians to help finish it (for those who might recall seeing it at past Gatherings, it's about 80% finished. There are still some storyboards that could be colored, or entire scenes drawn (such as Mole and Demona's comedic picnic, or the dogfight over Paris). Send me an email at my name at gmail.com if you're interested.
Vashkoda - [my name at gmail dot com]

Apparently, one is not interested in arguing that...

I wonder though: If Goliath had kept the Eye and defeated Odin, what then? Would he have been called to the Gathering? Either way, would Oberon have felt the need to take the Eye from Goliath himself?

Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" - Sevarius, "Louse"

ESG> One could also argue that Goliath didn't exactly count as "mortal" while wearing the Eye.
Algernon
"Don't blink. Don't even blink. Blink and you're dead. They are fast. Faster than you can believe. Don't turn your back, don't look away, and DON'T blink." ~Tenth Doctor.

Tenth!

And that's the first time I've ever seen a comment room countdown made entirely of ordinal numbers.

Supermorff

Ninth!
Neill - [neillgargoyle(a)gmail dot com]

Eighth!
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"Lord I was born a Ramblin' Man..." - The Allman Brothers Band

Seventh...
Anthony Tini

Sixth....
Phil - [p1anderson at yahoo dot com]

Fifth.....
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" - Sevarius, "Louse"

Fourth.

Even if the eye wasn't Odin's, didn't he play everything by the rules? Simply talking to people doesn't seem to count as interfering, so the barter was fine. After that he attacked while transformed as a bear, and Owen's existence indicates that interference is fine while you yourself are mortal. He appeared to capture Elisa, but didn't actually grab her until she unwittingly gave a sort of permission, saying "try and catch me." And his last fight with Goliath was started by Goliath calling him out, inviting him to interfere.

ESG

Third!

(and i figured I'd just echo my comment last week with a 'Hey! Anyone see Amazon's now also sporting the *back* cover for Rain of the Ghosts?' d: )

Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible, I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka

Second!
Matthew
"Shall we their fond pageant see? Lord, what fools these mortals be!"-Puck

First.

And adding some more on the discussion of Oberon's children getting around the non-interference rule:
1. Banshee (http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=3152): Though Goliath, Elisa and Angela were agents of Oberon, thus not interfering with mortals.

2. Odin: The eye belongs to him, thus he gets away with it on the grounds of reclaiming what's rightfully his.

Antiyonder