Comments for the week ending August 19, 2002

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Todd > Actually, I think it would be more fun to see what would happen if the clan did meet the clone... but didn't realize she was a clone... because switching her with the real Angela is all part of Sevarius' devious plan.

But then, I'm not exactly impartial on this topic. ;)
Patrick Toman
Sunday, August 18, 2002 07:13:33 PM
IP: 67.38.244.97

Of course, Sevarius had better make certain that nobody else finds out about that Angela clone, especially the clan (Goliath, Angela, and Broadway would particularly not be enthusiastic about that), or even more especially, Demona herself (if Demona found out about the Angela clone, Sevarius would have a very short life expectancy indeed....)
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Sunday, August 18, 2002 06:51:52 PM
IP: 67.28.90.206

*^_^* -- Send in the clones! Yeah, the Angela cloned is such a yummy idea. And Sevarius is a bad, bad man. The idea of him shaping and molding the thoughts of an Angela clone is so... so... NEAT!!!

Mooncat
>^,,^<
Mooncat
Sunday, August 18, 2002 06:13:44 PM
IP: 68.102.23.36

Speaking of the Gathering, where are those pictures that were taken of everyone who went to this year's Gathering posted? (The ones to be sent to Disney DVD, Japan, etc.)
Jim R.
Sunday, August 18, 2002 04:32:02 PM
IP: 208.17.70.142

Bud-Clare wrote: "Hmmm... I wonder... what are the chances that he _hasn't_ grown himself some kind of sex toy in his lab? A clone, maybe? He could have gotten a sample of Angela's blood without Demona knowing about it... ;)"

Dr. Anton Sevarius, creating himself a clone of the lovely Angela? And maybe twisting her in his own image? Why, that would be interesting indeed. In fact, I even have an idea what the new 'goyle's name might be.

:: shamelessly leaves a link to the fic archive ::
Patrick Toman
Sunday, August 18, 2002 04:29:44 PM
IP: 67.38.244.97

Xeenn> Hey, I was staff! ;) And i'll make sure your question gets to the person it needs to get to. Thanks for letting us know. :)
Kessalia
Sunday, August 18, 2002 01:50:58 PM
IP: 24.247.98.153

Airwalker > Thanks for the Toon Network information. Considering Toonami seems to frustrate me on a monthly basis (getting rid of great shows to make room for more DBZ, for example), it's great that they're getting back on track with the new He-Man and JLA eps. Personally, I cant wait for the old HM on DVD - for a few years, my childhood practically revolved around that show. Still have a great collection, even if I never got Skeletor's castle, with the voice-altering microphone :D

And I forget who asked this, but Man-At-Arms was Teela's father. And yeah, he did sound familiar. And whew, that Evilyn certainly got some magic steroids, her powers were seriously juiced.

Sincerely, Allaine
Allaine - [eac2nd@yahoo.com]
Philadelphia, PA
Sunday, August 18, 2002 11:39:16 AM
IP: 205.188.200.32

2002 GATHERING STAFF> If there is anyone on this comment room that worked on this years Gathering, could you please help me. Origially, I was supposed to go to the Gathering this year, but due to money problems, I couldn't go, even though I pre-registered at the 2001 Gathering. At that time, I also ordered three (3XL size) Gathering 2002 t-shirts. So before the Gathering, I e-mailed the staff describing my situation, and asking if it would be possible to mail me my t-shirts (I knew I couldn't get a refund on my registration). I received an e-mail back saying that they could, and would after the Gathering was over. However, it has been two months and I have not received my t-shirts, nor any replies to the e-mails I sent after the Gathering. I'm hoping this message will reach the appropriate people so I can get this resolved.

Thank you.
Xeennexx - [xeennexx@accesstoledo.com]
Saturday, August 17, 2002 08:30:39 PM
IP: 207.43.107.133

Of course, there's another reason for Xanatos to be cautious about his scheming since Alex's birth: he doesn't want to teach Alex too well. After all, that could lead to a repeat of what he went through with Thailog in "Double Jeopardy" (or, for that matter, what Derek Powers went through with his son in "Batman Beyond").

(It just goes to show that, if you're a super-villain, it's a better idea to not have kids:) ).

AIRWALKER - Good point about how, now that the gargoyles are publicly exposed, New York in their universe might become a bit less like the real New York. (Come to think of it, it's this sort of thing which may explain why so many super-hero series are generally set in made-up cities like Metropolis or Gotham).

PENDRAGON ANTAGONISTS - Of course, one of the main considerations in figuring out whom Arthur and Griff would have been pitted against is this particular rule of Greg's: Antagonists work best if they have a "twisted echo" of the protagonist about them. Greg observed that in "Gargoyles" where so many of the antagonists have just that sort of quality vis a vis Goliath (especially Thailog). So the same thing would have to happen with Arthur if his spin-off were to be made.

Now, we know that Arthur's antagonist in "Gargoyles" (the episodes that were actually made) was Macbeth, and that he would have been at odds with Duval in the "Pendragon" spin-off. Both of them definitely fit this angle. Macbeth, like Arthur, is a famous legendary medieval king, dimly rooted in history, but owing his fame to his place in legend and literature rather than to his achievements in actual history. He differs from Arthur, at the same time, by having lived down through the centuries as they happened rather than sleeping during that time. (The same way that he differed from Goliath, in fact). So that made him an appropriate antagonist for Arthur in "Avalon Part Three" (which I watched again on tape this morning, by the way) and "Pendragon".

Duval also fits that role. He actually comes from Arthur's time period, and was once one of his knights. And he heads an organization dedicated to making things better; where the Illuminati differ from the knights of the Round Table, of course, is in the fact that: a) the Illuminati are secretive where the knights of the Round Table acted openly and were known to everybody in Britain, and b) the Illuminati have a tendency to go for an "end justifies the means" strategy, being willing to use what are, at best, morally questionable means to achieve their goals.

So obviously, other antagonists for Arthur would need some sort of resonance for him (or for Griff). Xanatos could work on that level, for example, in the same way that he did for Goliath (contrast of medieval honor with modern-day amorality).
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, August 17, 2002 07:38:19 PM
IP: 65.57.58.70

GREG BISHANSKY - You wrote: [Whoa, hold up. While I do definetly agree that Xanatos would make a good antagonist in "Pendragon" for all the reasons you stated, I highly doubt he'll give up his domestic scenes just to avoid any conflict with Goliath.]

I don't think that he'll give up on domestic plotting. Sorry I wasn't more clear about that in my last post. But I do think that larger scale plots (sort of like his collaberation scheme in CITY OF STONE) or stuff that can be traced without terrible difficulty by Elisa and the Clan (like Gen-U-Tech Ownership/Mutate Development in METAMORPHASIS or stealing stuff in full battle armor ala THE EDGE) won't be happening in NYC anytime soon. I think that stuff like that would tend to be moved to operations outside of the NYC area. Unless it can only be done here why take the risk when you can save yourself tons of heartache and risk of interference by doing it out in Southern Jersey? :-)

You wrote: [Keep in mind, while his priorities have shifted, his methods haven't changed. And since New York City is his power base, his schemes would still affect it in ways they have before.]

I agree that he would still be into the whole questionable methods thing. But I do think that you have to consider the change in situation as well as the change in priorities. Its not just that the Gargoyles are back in the Castle. If that were all then he could probably continue onward like nothing happened. (He was able to scheme successfully with Talon around although in that case the Mutates were desperate enough to ignore the evidence in front of them.)

But he has more difficulties and restrictions than before - He's got Duval and the Illuminati breathing down his neck for information on the Gargoyles, he's got the Quarrymen spying on the Castle and looking for a chance to get the Gargoyles, and he's got the entire population of NYC questioning and watching him. Just the suspicion that he might be harboring the Gargoyles is going to get City, State, and Federal Government on him plus the Media; and on top of it he's not going to win any friends in the street. (He might also have to deal with Gargoyle watchers keeping an eye on the Castle to catch a glimpse of the Clan.) He's crafty and intelligent and a risk taker so I do think that he would continue to scheme and deal with the new situation but at the same time he's no fool - he's not going to run the same tremendous risks he used to with his son around and with the possibility of Oberon looking for some excuse to remove him to Avalon.

So while he would still scheme it probably wouldn't be that major in scope and would probably much more secretive in nature. Something that most likely wouldn't get noticed by the Clan unless they accidentally stumbled upon it. Because if they can find out easily then with all the attention it could be traced back to him - and the last thing he needs is himself and Fox in jail and Anastasia taking custody of Alex all the way to Avalon.

You wrote: [And again, what makes you think Demona is going to move some of her plots outside NYC just because of Angela?]

Again like with Xanatos its more a matter of scope of plan than of the plan itself. I think that given the climate in NYC, the bigger the plan is the more likely its going to be moved overseas to be done. Smaller schemes are going to happen in NYC, of that I have no doubt. But given the change in status quo for everyone, it just strikes me as more sensible to move more attention grabbing plans overseas where your not going to get interference. NYC is a great place to be and when the world ends its going to be the only place to be but Demona could just as easily destroy the world in Paris and not have to deal with Goliath and the Clan.

You wrote: [Angela in NYC didn't cause her to even consider not going through her plan to destroy humanity in "Hunter's Moon".]

True. Demona is a bit of a different case than Xanatos - she doesn't have to deal with the attention of the world and the city plus she doesn't have to worry about a Clan she doesn't live with. Plus on top of all that she is slightly unbalanced; so Demona would tend to be more willing to pull off plans in NYC than Xanatos.

But we should also consider that she has spent a thousand years hiding - with the heat on in the city for Gargoyles it is more likely that she might decide to move some operations and a few major schemes overseas as well as herself until things die down. She has the luxury of time after all to get things done.

And I do think that as time goes on Angela would become a major factor in her schemes - not just for Demona to sway her to her thinking but also in the types of schemes she plans out. I do think that it was Angela's presence that moved her towards such a high level of secrecy - in fact she would have succeeded except that the Hunters and the Clan accidentally stumbled upon her (the Hunters stumbling on the Plan and the Clan then stumbling on Demona while hunting the Hunters). I think that without Angela around she wouldn't have gone through such difficult lengths such as stealing DI-7 when she could have easily bought some from Xanatos - she was trying to keep all involvment completely secret.

You wrote: [I don't think that Angela will get Demona to halt in her schemes, if anything I think "protecting my daughter from humanity and the death Goliath will lead her into," will become something else Demona uses to justify her plans.]

I agree. But just because Angela becomes more justification doesn't mean that she has to actually bear witness to every scheme; it could be a similier dynamic to Xanatos and Alex - why endanger your child when relocating the plan doesn't cost as much money and has a higher chance of success?

(Plus we could be dealing with a different dynamic with Demona as well - not to say that she would give up trying to destroy humanity but now that she has a child like Xanatos it is possible she might reshuffle some priorities slightly and put more emphasis on her and schemes aimed at teaching and "helping" her rather than outright "destroy Humanity" schemes. After all she has all the time in the world to do that - but Angela will only be alive for a hundred or so years. That would be the most likely way an immortal might look at things. And she is an immortal.)

Again I'm not saying that she or Xanatos won't scheme in NYC; there are after all tons of things that they could do here. But the World Tour made the Gargoyles Universe larger in scope. And HUNTERS MOON 3 made NYC uncomfortable for many of their schemes. (Not to mention that these are people who own multinational corporations which would give them a lot of reason to delegate resources and ideas to other branches outside NYC.) So it would be likely to move the more outlandish, obvious, visible, and easily traceable by those who really know whats going on plans to places where they imagine there would be less interference. (Of course they wouldn't know that there would be other types of interference but that's what would make the situation interesting.)



As for other villains that could make it into PENDRAGON we could also get Brode since its possible that he might be deported after he serves his time. With Arthur and Griff wandering around it is possible they'd end up in the Czech Republic.

And while I think that Coldsteel would be more of a GARGOYLES villain, sort of a replacement for Demona as Brooklyn's main personal enemy after he's done Timedancing, he could just as easily show up in PENDRAGON to try his luck in Europe; after all wouldn't he as still having a bit more medieval mindset be a little curious to visit the places that were in his worldview while he was still alive such as England and France?

And of course we could have the Banshee show up although I don't know if she'd be a villain - more of an adversary and neutral character rather than an out and out villain. Still she might be a being that perhaps Arthur might have a little more grounding in compared with someone like Cyoti or the Pack.




SPACEBABIE - You wrote: [Boring? I could never get bored of the series. It is one of those things that I can watch over and over. Like Sailormoon, or reruns of the Simpsons.]

I agree. I could never get tired of watching this series - its got too much potential even in reruns to get boring for me. But for a change, I've been having some fun by watching the series through yet again but this time in Spanish. Its a pretty good dub and does well at coming off dramatic (although like most dubs it can't really live up to the original language track the series was designed for) but sometimes to me with my lack of language skills, it sounds a bit funny. I'd love to hear the series dubbed in Japanese. I'm really curious how that would be done.

You wrote: [Makes sense, of course Marina didn't voice her in The Journey yet she had the annoying B-word attitude.]

Again the TGC Margot had a completely different voice actress than the Margot in MONSTERS. It really sounds like Brigette Bako stepped in to do Margot's line in this episode.



JIMMY - You wrote: [He-Man> NOOOOOO!!!! I missed it!!!!!! AND I WON't BE HOME THIS TODAY TO WATCH IT EITHER!!!!!!!!! NNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!]

Don't Worry! It'll be on again tomorrow (Sunday) at 10 AM according to he-man.org . And even if you can't catch it then, still Don't Worry! There is this piece of information you should know:

At the San Diego Comic Con discussion panel regarding He-Man and the Masters of the Universe, it was announced that both the old and new series will be making their way to DVD. The new MotU series will be available with Dolby Digital 5.1 surround sound and 16X9 wide screen viewing.


Also it seems that this is going to branch out into a new He-Man series according to that same website. Here's the info (and click my name to go to the site):

"Before the regular series, however, comes the movie. The first three episodes of the show, like Justice League, will form a feature length film that will establish the characters, reveal the origins of Skeletor and He-Man, and set up storylines that will run throughout the entire series. Counting the three episode movie, 26 episodes are in development; more episodes will depend on the show's success".

"The 90 minute origin movie will debut on Friday, August 16 at 4:00pm, and will show again August 17 - 18 and August 30 - September 1. Starting with Episode 4, new episodes will run every Friday starting September 13, at 6:00 pm, and will show four times a week. By November 1, the show will be on twice a day (except Sundays)."


Now I know for sure that GARGOYLES will be back in some form in the next five years - if He-Man can come back to TV then almost anything can.



By the way just so you know there is a possibility that Disney might be having a Corporate shakeup that might push Eisner out - lost of themepark revenue and the dismall failure of running ABC seem to be pushing this - maybe some management shakeup might bring in new blood willing to take some risks again - like a dramatic cartoon series or at least a major shakeup of Toon Disney to have its prime time hours compete with CN. (I got this info in the New York Post in case your curious.)
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Saturday, August 17, 2002 05:53:41 PM
IP: 12.88.88.228

Spacebabie--That's exactly the Shakespeare plays I read in high school, at the same years, for the same reasons (except I was in the advanced placement class so we also read HAMLET in the 12th grade class). Unless by some odd coincidence you also went to school in the Cheney, Washington, school district... I wonder how many places those choices of Shakespeare plays are used in that sequence & for those reasons?
Shan - [shan@dm.net]
Los Angeles, CA, USA
Saturday, August 17, 2002 05:20:43 PM
IP: 198.81.16.58

hey, Gregs answered some more questions!
matt
Saturday, August 17, 2002 01:39:04 PM
IP: 216.178.8.78

The atrocious spelling an grammar in my previous post should tell you my level of emotional distress.
Jimmy
Saturday, August 17, 2002 01:07:59 PM
IP: 172.141.106.24

He-Man> NOOOOOO!!!! I missed it!!!!!! AND I WON't BE HOME THIS TODAY TO WATCH IT EITHER!!!!!!!!! NNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

I use dto have an entire garbage Bag full of He-Man toys, but when we moved from New-Jersey, the toys were lost. It was a very sad day for me.
Jimmy
Saturday, August 17, 2002 01:04:27 PM
IP: 172.141.106.24

Mooncat > Interesting observation there about Angela. No wonder certain fanfic authors can't help continuing the pattern. ;) If you're keeping a list of Angela's bondage moments, though, you'll want to add "Bushido" to it. One aspect that's interesting, though... as many times as Angela's gotten herself in a pickle, she never really came across as the "damsel in distress" type. I was always glad that "Gargoyles" never fell into same old rut with the female characters as shows like "Ninja Turtles," where every plot was essentially "Shredder's kidnapped April again!"

Re: Shakespeare > My first introduction to Shakespeare was in junior high. Every year, a troupe of actors from the Great Lakes Theater Festival came to our school for a week to do an interactive presentation of a Shakespeare play to the eight grade English classes. The year they came for my class, they did "Romeo and Juliet." But rather than just sit in a classroom and read it, we got to act out scenes and learn a bit about the theater, as well. I even learned to do a little mock sword fighting. I'm not sure if the school still does this program, but looking back on it, I think it was a really cool and unique way to introduce students to Shakespeare without elicting the typical cry of "boring!"
Patrick Toman
Saturday, August 17, 2002 01:00:52 PM
IP: 67.38.242.6

You know you must really know your cats if you not only can tell them apart by their meows and purrs, but also their hisses...except for the one cat who never hisses.

Gemini]---".Becasue I've seen the entire series like 3 or 4 times and in a way its getting kind of boring." Boring? :::eyes turn purple as energy crackls all over her body. Her fists clench while her hair defies gravity::: Boring? I could never get bored of the series. It is one of those things that I can watch over and over. Like Sailormoon, or reruns of the Simpsons.

Mooncat]----Shakespeare. I think I was in fifth grade. I remember watching Ducktales where they went to that one island with the actors. I was also reading about this young detective. Not Nancy drew and her friends went to England and they were at this one hotel that had rooms named after His plays. While in Middle school I decided to try to read his most famous play and what I guessed would have been a good starter. Romeo and Juliet. "They commited Suicide?!" Where my thoughts. We had to read that play again in high school. I also remember that episode of Beetlejuice that was centered around the Bard and it set me off laughing. Read Julius Caesar in tenth grade. Didn't read any at all in 11th((We were focusing on American Literature)) and Macbeth in 12th ((We were focusing on British Literature)). Interesting thing about Macbeth, before we started to read it we saw this video of a guest speaker at another high school who explained that the real Macbeth was a good strong kind who ruled Scotland for many years and Duncan was a weak terrible king.
In intro to theater at Valencia my group did our report on Othello and I even rented the Orson Wells movie, and a year ago I took a Shakespeare course where we read a lot of his plays and as we read them the professor selected a few students to get up in front of the class to act out the sections we were reading. We also had to divide into groups and perform a scene from one of the selected plays from the syllabus. Those who selected King Lear got extra credit. We chose Lear. Lets just say The Tempest can be set in an office building. I have seen it done.

Airwalker]---"It wasn't Marina Sirtis that did the line in this episode so that would explain it." Makes sense, of course Marina didn't voice her in The Journey yet she had the annoying B-word attitude.

Spacebabie - [LadyAndromeda@smstars.zzn.com]
Orlando, Florida, U.S.A
Saturday, August 17, 2002 12:51:22 PM
IP: 67.25.50.243

AIRWALKER> <<most Xanatos schemes are going to have to shift overseas to avoid Conflict with Goliath; so instead of Goliath getting upset and frustrated with Xanatos, we can always have Arthur and Griff pick up the slack :-)>>

Whoa, hold up. While I do definetly agree that Xanatos would make a good antagonist in "Pendragon" for all the reasons you stated, I highly doubt he'll give up his domestic scenes just to avoid any conflict with Goliath. Let's not forget who we are talking about here, this is the man who was being dangled over the side of the Eyrie Building and just said: "Go ahead, without me you'd still be gathering moss." Keep in mind, while his priorities have shifted, his methods haven't changed. And since New York City is his power base, his schemes would still affect it in ways they have before.

<<(Besides given that Angela is in NYC Demona's probably also going to move some of her plotting out of the US.)>>

And again, what makes you think Demona is going to move some of her plots outside NYC just because of Angela? Demona always struck me as a firm believer in tough love. Angela in NYC didn't cause her to even consider not going through her plan to destroy humanity in "Hunter's Moon". I don't think that Angela will get Demona to halt in her schemes, if anything I think "protecting my daughter from humanity and the death Goliath will lead her into," will become something else Demona uses to justify her plans. Demona will most likely to the attitude that "Angela may despise what I do now, but she'll thank me in the end."

That being said, I could definetly see her showing up in "Pendragon". Xanatos as well for most of the reasons you suggested.
Greg Bishansky
Saturday, August 17, 2002 10:40:52 AM
IP: 216.179.1.20

SPACEBABIE - You wrote: [Was that really Brendon and Margot??? Margot didn't seem to be as annoying as usual and they did sound Scottish.]

It wasn't Marina Sirtis that did the line in this episode so that would explain it.

You wrote: [Whenever I hear that I'm torn being groaning and laughing.]

I do both. :-)



TODD - You wrote: [if Queen Mab were to go on the loose in Manhattan, judging from what I've read about her in "Ask Greg", I doubt that there'd be much of the city left standing by the time that she was done, and then they'd have a tough time reconciling the Gargoyles Universe with the real world).]

True. Although she could always wake up in another city and level that one before heading off to Avalon; although if she's such trouble, wouldn't Oberon have just set something up to seal her off from Avalon? And wouldn't she come to NYC anyway eventually - Alex is after all sort of her Grandson and even if he's not then he's at least a good bargaining chip to use against Oberon.

Its also entirely possible that she wouldn't bother heading to Avalon - maybe she's learned something about self control whereever she was spending time - or perhaps she has some sort of plan that wouldn't involve massive property damage, at least right away?

I don't think that we would get anything as radical in the series as the destruction of NYC, at least in anything set in current times (I'm sure NYC would take some major damage in G2198 one way or another, but at that point its far enough in the future that it might not even look like any NYC that we know or could imagine) but I do think that as time goes on in anything set post THE JOURNEY the similarities between the real NYC and the Gargoyles NYC would start to weaken and the differences would start to widen. Not that it would happen right away but there would already be a difference in politics and priorities. Geographically and in feel it might continue to resemble the real NYC but that might start to shift too. It wouldn't be able to continue to parallel real NYC for anything more than a few more seasons if the series had continued; series development would lead to changes. (Who knows, it might even have brought the weirdness level of Gargoyles NYC in line with the weirdness level of real NYC. Gargoyles New York just isn't as strange as the real thing. :-) :-) )

You wrote: [Actually, I never gave any thought to either Vinnie or Bruno showing up in "Pendragon"]

Bruno is a possibility. After all Xanatos is still looking for immortality - why not invest some resources in looking for the Grail? (Not to mention a hundred other schemes that could land the Xanatos Goon Squad in the path of Arthur and Griff - most Xanatos schemes are going to have to shift overseas to avoid Conflict with Goliath; so instead of Goliath getting upset and frustrated with Xanatos, we can always have Arthur and Griff pick up the slack :-) Besides it a good way to get Xanatos a part in the series; he'd still be rich in possibility as an antagonist for somebody.)

As for Vinnie, I'm not so sure about him showing up in PENDRAGON. Although it could be possible - knowing the character, how long do you think he's going to be able to hold his job in Japan? :-)

Seriously the odds are good that he's going to be running security on something and that something is going to be a place where Arthur and Griff have to get in to get something or fight someone. Besides if Arthur and Griff can get to Antarctica then they can definitely make a stop or two in Japan.

You wrote: [I've sometimes wondered, in fact, what familiar Gargoyles antagonists besides the Illuminati (and Macbeth, but as an ally in this spin-off, obviously) would have shown up in "Pendragon".]

Well like I said above Xanatos could be a good antagonist for Arthur and Griff. Any number of schemes he's behind could cause trouble for the Pendragon Duo. And with it being overseas, the odds are good that it wouldn't cause problems between Xanatos and Goliath, at least not until Goliath finds out. And even then we could always have a situation where its not Xanatos intentionally causing problems for Griff and Arthur but just a scheme he's funding that's causing them trouble.

Demona could also show up as another antagonist. Its a strong possibility that she know of and may have contact with the London Clan. That would be an angle to involve Griff in. (Who knows, he may have known her before Goliath showed up in 1940. We don't know where Demona was before and during WW2 after all.) Besides considering that Arthur wants to help humanity with his ideals and deeds, what better antagonist for him to have than someone who wants to utterly destroy humanity? (Besides given that Angela is in NYC Demona's probably also going to move some of her plotting out of the US.)

And we always have the Pack and Cyberbiotics that can show up as antagonists; Vogel's Cyberbiotics could make a good corporate antagonist given his behavior and ethics in THE GREEN. And the Pack are always good as once in a while mercenaries showups.



ALLAINE - You wrote: [Speaking of CN, did anyone catch the He-Man movie today?]

I missed the first half hour but saw the rest of it; it was a great nostalgia trip. (And whats his name, TeeLa's father - I swear that it was Optimus Primal doing his voice. Was I right?) It'll be on again on today at 7 PM for anyone who missed it. Now I'm waiting to see Transformers Armada next Friday.



GEMINI - You wrote: [Are the makers of Gargoyles gonna continue the series.Or is it just gonna keep being reruns.]

Right now the series is cancelled so there aren't any new episodes coming out anytime soon. We're hoping that eventually the series will get restarted (or at the very least one of the spinoffs will get done) if we keep up interest in it.

If your looking for something Gargoyles related that is new then check out TGS. That is a fanfiction version of the series that continues it from the end of Season 2. It is an original creation and Greg Weisman has nothing at all to do with it but it is something new that keeps up interest. In fact TGS TIMEDANCER S4 should be starting up on Monday according to the TGS homepage. Click my name to go to the TGS page.



MOONCAT - You wrote: [So, who or what was it that started you guys into Shakespeare?]

High School. They got me to start reading and took away the desire at the same time. Gargoyles got me to sit down and reread everything they first made me go through.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Saturday, August 17, 2002 10:20:24 AM
IP: 12.88.86.220

Hey,

I am wondering, since there is such a lot of Shakespeare reference in Gargoyles, just when and how people in the Garg fandom got involved with Shakespeare.

For me, it was elementary school, and my favorite librarian. When I first started reading 'real' books, it was like someone gave me the keys to a world of magic, and the Librarian was gatekeeper. I was only in first grade, but she saw how addicted to books I was, and steered me to things she thought I would like, including this huge book of Shakespeare's plays, which was one of the kind that have the big friendly letters. I loved it. The drama, the language, it was all wonderful.

The horrible thing is I can't remember that librarian's name. Only a hazy recollection of her look, and her voice, and the feeling of complete adoration I had in her presence.
I really should try and look her up, and thank her for starting me on the road that lead to so many wonderful reads. I've heard from other people that their school librarian's were not so kind, which is still something of a profound shock. For the longest time Librarian = God in my personal world view.

So, who or what was it that started you guys into Shakespeare?

Mooncat
>^,,^<


Mooncat
Saturday, August 17, 2002 02:29:47 AM
IP: 68.102.23.36

...I WANT YOU TO GET RID OF THE HUMANS...
Sorry.just felt like saying that.
I'm wondering.Are the makers of Gargoyles gonna continue the series.Or is it just gonna keep being reruns.Becasue I've seen the entire series like 3 or 4 times and in a way its getting kind of boring.So i'm wondering if the are going to make a new sweries and new episodes.I hope they are because I'm a big fan of Gargoyles.
Gemini_Bloodian - [gemini_bloodian@battleancients.every1.net]
MN, USA
Saturday, August 17, 2002 01:51:42 AM
IP: 216.114.223.29

What's amusing to me about He-Man is the number of writers on that show who have gone on to bigger and better things -- including a few (Michael Reaves, Brynne Chandler, and I think Steve Perry -- though I'm not sure of Perry) who worked on Gargs. Larry DiTillio was also a writer on He-Man; he's known for, among other things, writing for Babylon Five and a zillion more modern cartoons. I'm sure there are others -- those are just the ones who come immediately to my mind because I'm a fan of their work. :)

Leva
Saturday, August 17, 2002 12:15:05 AM
IP: 162.42.84.76

Well now that I've figured out "CN" means "Cartoon Network", I'm guessing it *wasn't* the *live action* movie....geesh, I need to pay better attention to posts....;-D
warrioress
Friday, August 16, 2002 11:55:18 PM
IP: 64.219.128.105

Catching up this week.... Been working on my website.

Matt and gargoyle appearance> Well, despite how hard the Disney artists thought of gargoyle looks, shape and form, I would want to think they did base most gargoyles on Goliath. I have a small feeling this was somewhat a marketing strategy too.

But comparing your stuff to the show, well, I'd have to agree with you on that Goliath might be a "core" gargoyle, one whose common features exist in other gargoyles, but maybe those others would have evolved/mutated special charactersitics that make them more adaptable to their environment. Much as the same way humans evolved different variations in skin/hair color to different climates and ecosystems, but still most humans are genetically the same.

I remember doing this sort of experiment in biology class where we'd keep scratching out people in the class with the more common features until we eventually narrowed it down to a single person who had more slightly "different and unique" features about him/herself much as you did with narrowing it to Goliath having "all" of them. Whether Goliath's features are a coincidence or not, I don't know...

He-Man on CN> Yes I saw it. I used to love He-Man a long, long time ago with the original cartoon. I still remember two years ago, my friend pulled out an old tape he had of the original He-Man cartoon. As soon as He-Man says his "I HAVE THE POWER!" line all this corny music starts playing and both of us burst out laughing for a half hour. I remember it used to be alot cooler as a kid, but now it seemed just funny. The new cartoon on CN was better animated but He-Man as the prince reminds me too much of the main character from Titan A.E.

Monsters> I don't think I'll comment on this episode. I didn't get a chance to watch it, but there is not much to say that hasn't already been said. It was an OK episode, that's enough.
Jim R.
Friday, August 16, 2002 10:39:12 PM
IP: 65.164.16.42

"Speaking of CN, did anyone catch the He-Man movie today?"

Was this the live action one that came out in the 80's or a new one?
warrioress
Friday, August 16, 2002 09:53:37 PM
IP: 64.219.131.242

Speaking of CN, did anyone catch the He-Man movie today? If you were a huge fan of the original show when you were young, like I was, and if you had most of the action figures, like I did (and still do, in a box in the basement), then this was a fabulous bit of nostalgia. They trotted out a ton of the old heroes and villains, and while the posturing was a little much at times, they even used the same weapons that the action figures came with. It was SO cool :D

Sincerely, Allaine
Allaine - [eac2nd@yahoo.com]
Philadelphia, PA
Friday, August 16, 2002 08:28:42 PM
IP: 64.12.105.42

I rather suspect that the bulk of the episodes after "The Journey" would be set in New York as well, although there'd clearly be exceptions. (Queen Mab getting freed would almost certainly be one of them; I think that it would make most sense to have her escape and going after Oberon for revenge take place on Avalon, on the grounds that that way, the fallout from the big battle between them would be taking place in a mythical land rather than in a real city like New York - if Queen Mab were to go on the loose in Manhattan, judging from what I've read about her in "Ask Greg", I doubt that there'd be much of the city left standing by the time that she was done, and then they'd have a tough time reconciling the Gargoyles Universe with the real world).

Actually, I never gave any thought to either Vinnie or Bruno showing up in "Pendragon" (though Vinnie in "Bad Guys" might be possible, given that he'd moved to Japan and that Yama, one of the regulars, is Japanese). I've sometimes wondered, in fact, what familiar Gargoyles antagonists besides the Illuminati (and Macbeth, but as an ally in this spin-off, obviously) would have shown up in "Pendragon". (If you count Oberon as an antagonist in "Gargoyles", then his presence would have been quite possible in "Pendragon", especially given that Greg was going to make him Merlin's father).
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Friday, August 16, 2002 06:50:44 PM
IP: 65.57.58.11

Hey Gabe-sorry to hear about your book mark. I did something similar with a whole stack of garg stickers in NY in 98. While packing my bags, I think I knocked the pack of stickers under the bed. That still hurts since I still havent found all of the stickers yet. As for the bookmarks, I had a few around, but can't put my finger on where they're at right now. When I locate them, I'd be happy to send you one. In the meantime, You can at least look at one I scanned for the Can Clan library some time ago. Just click my name:o) I'm still trying to find myself the full sized "read" poster. One of the few remaining garg pieces I really want.
Wingless - [canclan@rogers.com]
Friday, August 16, 2002 04:20:34 PM
IP: 24.43.42.78

Monsters> Nothing really much to go into. Just a standard action episode really. Uhmmm, on first viewing, Sevarius revealing Angela to be Goliath's daughter was a SHOCKER!!! Though when I was just watching it, I was thinking how a thirteen year-old kid could be so stupid to just miss it!

Hehehe, Goliath tossing around his wet hair was a nice treat...*ahem!* And "big daddy" was a tad hoky--no, it needed to be changed. If the goons had any brains, they would put on real clothes when they go in public, and not just spandex; then, perhaps, Elisa wouldn't have spotted them. Idiots, plain and simple.

That's about it.
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Friday, August 16, 2002 02:55:24 PM
IP: 66.169.212.157

Greg W.] Monsters…I was wondering what the deal was with women being pulled under and water monsters.

Was that really Brendon and Margot??? Margot didn't seem to be as annoying as usual and they did sound Scottish.

I thought Nessie and Big Daddy were father and daughter too, but then I realize this is Sevarius, and Big Daddy could mean mate…as in "Who's ya daddy?"

Sevarius Rules!!!!
I love his over the top lines.

Todd]----"Does anybody else feel just a bit sorry for the yuppie couple" Only Brendon and that is because he has too put up with Margot. I can't stand that woman. "Wonder just who all those other phone calls came from - does the Gargoyles Universe have its own version of the Lone Gunmen, perhaps?)" That and maybe he gets some calls from Chantall and the girls that their 1-900 rates have gone down.

Airwalker]---"I do have a feeling though that we'll get a lot of "Darn It!" in the series.)' Whenever I hear that I'm torn being groaning and laughing.


Blaise]-----I hope you find a place soon. "The way he...handles her hair is very...interesting.' We know he is a pervert, that's part of his charm."and Bruno speaks of him as having "more lives than an alley cat."" He is INVINCIBLE! Sevarius would make a cool bond villian.

Bud Clair]----"He could have gotten a sample of Angela's blood without Demona knowing about it... ;)" He had that blood sample he took from her in Monsters. When he used it to learn who her father is.

Spacebabie - [LadyAndromeda@smstars.zzn.com]
Orlando, Florida, U.S.A
Friday, August 16, 2002 02:25:55 PM
IP: 67.25.53.144

TODD - You wrote: [I think that Xanatos didn't pit Bruno and his new security team (if he had one) against Oberon in "The Gathering" because he recognized that it'd be suicidal;]

When I asked why Xanatos didn't use his Goon Squad as a line of defense against Oberon, I didn't mean as a first line of defense. As a first line of defense, that would be basically sending them to their deaths (although that's not too clear; after all the Gargoyles went in instead and came out intact - however angry Oberon was, he wasn't intentionally trying to kill anyone in his battle).

What I meant was using them somewhere along the line as a backup line of defense. It was a strong possibility that Xanatos might lose against Oberon. Owen had left, he had no clue as to Oberon's capability, no guarantee the Gargoyles would show up and help him, and nothing standing between himself if he loses and his son. Putting something in there, even as a distraction would have been a good idea. (It might also have been a good idea not to have Fox and Alex actually stand around in the one place that Oberon was looking for them; might have been wiser for them to relocate to another part of the building.)

In that case I wonder why he didn't have his Goon Squad or at least a few extra Iron Clan robots hanging around between him and the nursery. Why not have cannon fodder to give Fox and Alex a chance to escape and possibly regroup with him and his father? Why leave so much to chance? (All I can figure is that he was following Owen's plan exactly and that plan didn't call for any other line of defense past Xanatos - if he failed then the battle would be over.)

You wrote: [Also, maybe Xanatos didn't want the regular "hired help" to be placed in danger in what was essentially a private war with Oberon over a matter relating to his family rather than to his business. Note that he does have all the staff evacuated from the Eyrie Building before Oberon's attack, which could certainly argue for that.]

Its probable. The building evacuation does lead into this idea although a building evacuation makes sense in any event, even if it isn't a private war - after all who wants tons of panic striken people running around the building and getting in the way?

I'm more inclinded to believe that while he did consider his battle with Oberon to be a private war that he was more following Owen's battle plan than coming up with something of his own that would have filled in the gaps here and there. And Owen's plan obviously called for an empty building and no Goon Squad line of defense whatsoever.

(Although the honest reason that they were left out might be that the Goon Squad has failed repeatedly against mortal enemies (i.e. The Gargoyles); What good would they do against Oberon if they can't even handle Goliath properly? :-) )

You wrote: [I doubt, though, that Goliath and the other gargoyles would work for Bruno.]

I didn't think that they would outright have to work for him. But if Building Security is part of Bruno's job and the Gargoyles are part of that Building Security (both protecting the building and being protected in it) then they might have to cooperate with Bruno from time to time as well as deal with his security protocols/rules.

You wrote: [Also, it would conflict with their goals; their mission is to protect Manhattan and its inhabitants, and some of Bruno's activities for Xanatos would be likely to be quite the reverse, involving some of Xanatos's less ethical and legal schemes which Goliath would never agree to being a part of.]

It might be possible that post HUNTERS MOON that Xanatos just moves Bruno and the remaining Goon Squad out of NYC altogether so that they don't run into and possibly conflict with the Gargoyles. It would make life easier for Xanatos to have most of his "this will induce conflict with Goliath and probably lead to massive setbacks" plans outside of NYC where the Clan would be least likely to head out to, especially in the aftermath of HUNTERS MOON.

(The impression I got from HUNTERS MOON 3 and THE JOURNEY is that from that point forward most of stories in GARGOYLES would remain NYC bound although there might be an occasional story taking them back outside NYC (i.e. The Grail) and that the rest of the world would get its stories told in the various spinoffs.)

You know the more I think about it, the more I think that Vinnie and Bruno are related or are at the very least sort of opposing natural forces in the Gargoyles Universe :-) . With Vinnie moving to Japan, it would make sense have Bruno also get moved out of NYC too. (I really get the feeling both of them would have appeared more than a few times in at least BAD GUYS and perhaps PENDRAGON.)



ALLAINE - You wrote: [They're making a Big O 2? *chortles gleefully* And here I wondered what anime I'd watch when I see the last Bebop (although frankly, I'd be happy if they just make more Harvey Birdmans, I think that show is hysterical).]

Yep, Big O 2 is on the way; it did well enough on CN that they requested more of it from Bandai and they in turn went back to the Japanese and convinced them to do more. (By the way they also want more Bebop done although the Bebop producer has stated that he has no desire or intention to do any more of the series, that its over with the events of episode 26. Personally I agree with him; it wouldn't make much sense to extend the series given how it ended. The only Bebop left for me to see is the movie; I wouldn't mind another movie or two or a special as long as they are set during the run of the series like the current Bebop movie is.)

As for Harvey Birdman, it is hillarious! I haven't seen much of it since I always seem to miss the episodes when they run on CN. I'm wishing that they release the series on DVD - I'd pick that up in a minute.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Friday, August 16, 2002 01:01:38 PM
IP: 12.88.89.131

Gabriel> I think I have a few extras lying around. I'll look later.
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Friday, August 16, 2002 11:23:56 AM
IP: 129.21.10.135

Monsters - I liked this episode. Strong examples of how Elisa will go haring off on a lead without a second thought. Some really fun 'coincidences' having Margot and Brendon there.

Great Sevarius piece. He gets to talk a lot and I love to listen. His reaction to Angela is... interesting. There is a soft, bdsm feel to this episode. Actually, there is just a soft bdsm feel to most of the show's villian's reactions to Angela... the Pack, she winds up in chains. Thailog, she gets grabbed rather indelicately, and later in the Reckoning, she ends up in chains, Xanatos, she winds up manacled to the floor while he compliments her on how "lovely" she is... Wow, now that I think about it, Angela seems to get chained up and complimented on her looks A LOT... *blinks thoughtfully*

Mooncat
>^,,^<

Mooncat
Friday, August 16, 2002 10:53:48 AM
IP: 68.102.23.36

Gemini> You might also want to check your local video stores. I have two Hollywood Video stores near me, and recently I found that between the two, they had the first four volumes of Gargoyles on VHS for rent (free if you rent another movie, so every time I rented an anime, I'd get a Garg tape for free :D)

They're making a Big O 2? *chortles gleefully* And here I wondered what anime I'd watch when I see the last Bebop (although frankly, I'd be happy if they just make more Harvey Birdmans, I think that show is hysterical).

Sincerely, Allaine (who never saw Monsters, so . . .)

"Sore throat! I called it! Yes, yes! Mindtaking! Stick with the kid, baby!" - Mentok the Mindtaker, _Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law_
Allaine - [eac2nd@yahoo.com]
Philadelphia, PA
Friday, August 16, 2002 10:46:51 AM
IP: 64.12.106.26

Bud-claire> It was a bookmark of Goliath sitting ona ledge and reading; it had a nightime background, and I think it said "READ" on top. or something. I miss it ;_; ;P
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Friday, August 16, 2002 10:20:54 AM
IP: 129.120.35.51

Blaise> Good luck with the apartment hunting and such. I'm glad that I don't have to go through that again this year; a friend of mine just bought a house, so I'm going to be moving in with her.

"Severius seems very...enamoured with Angela. The way he...handles her hair is very...interesting."
Hmmm... I wonder... what are the chances that he _hasn't_ grown himself some kind of sex toy in his lab? A clone, maybe? He could have gotten a sample of Angela's blood without Demona knowing about it... ;)

Gabriel> "Before I forget, I wanted to ask if anyone has any of those Goliath bookmarks from the Gathering."
What did they look like?
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Friday, August 16, 2002 09:25:18 AM
IP: 129.21.12.8

****An immense explosion occurs in the center of the Comment Room. The great ball of fire (get the song out of your head, please) recedes until it forms Blaise.**** Been a while. I would have posted a lot sooner, except...I'm pretty much homeless at this point in time. For the past week or so I've been squatting in the homes of some (very generous and patient) friends. In fact, it's through a friend's computer that I'm able to comment here (and watch the episode for this weed). I'm trying to rectify the situation though (I just spent $60 to get on Westsiderentals, and managed to get a few bites--here's hoping they pan out). Anyway, on with the show.

DCV: MONSTERS> I, too, thought the animation was rather problematic (a lot of repetition and stiff movements and expressions). The image-continuity suffered as well--when we first see the sonar tag, it's attached directly to the skin, but later it becomes a collar. Also, instead of the usual pole for steering and propelling the skiff, Goliath is now using an actual oar (of course, this is balanced by the fact that there is something rather ludicrous to traversing a mile-deep loch with a 7-ft pole). Finally, Angela did have a rather poorly done awakening sequence (although I swear that later airings seem to have cleaned it up slightly).
And yes, I noticed the similarities between the beginings of this and HERITAGE (there were subtle differences, but the overall resemblence is pretty big).
Despite all this, I still find myself comfortably watching this episode. Perhaps this has a lot to do with Tim Curry as Sevarius. He's just so fun!! And he has a tendency to get all the best lines. In addition to the ones you've mentioned, Greg (particualaly the "...finger down my throat" one), I'd like to add two more:
"Well, this shouldn't take long. I'm sure Big Daddy misses his Nessie-wessy." (Just the way Tim says that last part is great).
"'Monster Love!' How touching."
Whatever else you can say about the guy, he loves his work.
Anyway, from beginning to end...
Elisa's line about the water being too clean still works for me (I mean, there isn't any garbage floating on top of it). And the initial bump with the sub was good, too. I like Angela's pose when she puts here finger in the water after the group goes ashore (I don't know why, I just do), and her mention of trying again to find Manhattan really spoke to me (I had just started to wonder along with her).
I knew Elisa would try to contact home and let them know what was going on, but I felt like screaming my throat into a bloody mess when I saw the message saying "Tape full." Talk about frustrating. Pointless note--the first time I saw this (i.e., before KINGDOM aired), I was goofishly pleased that Brooklyn was singled out as someone to get word to. Just my pride for my fav character coming out I suppose.
The sequence with the boat (and the cameo by Margot and Brendan) is pretty fun. I like Elisa's calm, smug confidence that the whole thing is fake--and how, while she's obliviously comparing the situation to theme parks, the gargoyles notice the creature heading right toward them with somewhat horrified looks dawning on their faces.
It was several viewings before I noticed that Goliath had seen Angela's sillhouette (sp?) under water and tried to swim toward it before being blocked by Big Daddy.
The Goon Squad Leader/Head of Security finally gets a name. And we find out that Sevarius is at work in the loch. He has a rather interesting introduction here. Almost like a Bond villain, what with being heard only as a voice first, then seen as a sillohouette (sp?), then just a shot of him from the neck down, and FINALLY his face. Though, for those of us who followed the show religiously from the beginning, there was no mystery as to who this guy was (not with Tim Curry doing the voice). But I wonder what the effect would have been on a casual viewer for whom this was the first episode (something I may come back to later...).
Severius seems very...enamoured with Angela. The way he...handles her hair is very...interesting.
Angela's interaction with Nessie makes much more sense, and is much more palatable (sp?) with the knowledge that Nessie is familiar with gargoyles. Without it (the knowledge), it's alright, but seems a little like Snow White with all the animals of the forest just eating out of her hand. Thus, Sevarius' line is all the more hilarious (and even a bit cathartic).
While the gargoyles sleep, Elisa manages to find and tail the Goon Squad (typical detective). It was weird to see the Female Goon without her helmet on. Just a random observation.
I actually rather like Sevarius and Angela's conversation. Angela's calling Sevarius "the only monster here" may have been blatantly pointing out the theme, but I still like it.
And now we have actual confirmation that Goliath is Angela's biological father. Personally, I think that revelation is more for Angela's sake than the audience (or at least those who saw AVALON PART TWO). It must be weird, hearing about this great hero all your life, then meeting him, then being allowed to go adventuring with him, and then finally learning that you are his child! With her somewhat human viewpoint, that must have had Angela's mind reeling for a little bit.
One thing that really impressed me in later viewings. An almost casual throw-away line as Sevarius leaves Bruno to guard the base. He gives Bruno the gun with the implied order to kill Goliath if he "becomes too rambunctious," but he preceeded this with "It would be a shame to lose a gargoyle." There may have been a bit of sarcasm there, but I feel like the line kind of shows the scientist in Sevarius--the man fascinated by unique species.
I noticed the awkwardness of Bruno's "All right" line. Actually, that whole sequence was problematic. It took me several viewings before I realized what went on there.
For being an enemy, Bruno was pretty helpful in the mini-sub. Then again, if you're faced with an armed woman (you don't know the gun's not loaded) and a beast that could give Cujo a run for its money, you might be helpful, too!
I'm surprised the mini-sub didn't take any damage when it scraped along the side of the main sub.
One note: I never actually thought that Nessie was Big Daddy's daughter. I don't know how, but I kind of figured they were mates. Still, maybe a different name for the male would have worked better. Alpha, maybe? Or how about, Nester? NO! No, definitely not that....
It's a bit disconcerting when you see the goon at the controls for the tasers, and then, after Sevarius gives the order, seeing the doctor's hands on the controls. I do think Sevarius is the kind of guy who would try to do this sort of thing personally, but I think a scene of him pushing the Goon out of the chair and taking his place would have helped.
A good animation bit--the electricity of the taser reflected in Angela's mask as she looks on horrified.
And the monsters destroy the sub. It took me a while before I realized that those Goons probably all died. I really like that little revelation. Adds another dimension to what happened there. I also like how Sevarius vanished, and Bruno speaks of him as having "more lives than an alley cat." Nice little ominous bit that.
Actually, one thing I thought of a while back was how much Sevarius fits into the stereotypical, Saturdy morning Archnemesis role. I mean, he's seen in command of henchmen, he does the standard "telling of plans" with Angela, Goliath yells his name in anger when G recognizes his voice, he has the best lines, he vanishes at the moment of probable death, and a hero/henchman (in this case the latter) states that he will be back. I wonder if the casual viewer for whom this was the first episode would conclude that Sevarius was the main antagonist for the heroes. Of course, there is the mention of "Mr. Xanatos." You've got to admire a man whose very name warrants a musical sting.
All in all, while it certainly isn't the best episode, I find it a pleasant enough one.

Well, I'm turning in for now. I've got to do both work and apartment hunting tomorrow, so I'll drop back in again when I'm able to (though I'll try to be gone no more than a week at a time). Until then, farewell. ****Blaise bursts into flame, and crumbles to the ground in a pile of ash. Then, from the ashes, a beautiful pheonix emerges. The fiery-gold bird flies out through the window.****
Blaise
Friday, August 16, 2002 01:36:51 AM
IP: 64.24.101.140

I think that Xanatos didn't pit Bruno and his new security team (if he had one) against Oberon in "The Gathering" because he recognized that it'd be suicidal; Oberon would squash them before they could do anything against them. More impersonal (and powerful) defense measures such as force fields and iron-clad robots would be more effective than ordinary human paramilitaries.

(Also, maybe Xanatos didn't want the regular "hired help" to be placed in danger in what was essentially a private war with Oberon over a matter relating to his family rather than to his business. Note that he does have all the staff evacuated from the Eyrie Building before Oberon's attack, which could certainly argue for that).

I've wondered myself how having the gargoyles in the castle would affect Xanatos's current schemes. (Of course, many of his schemes might actually proceed from having them there - such as dealing with attempts by the Illuminati to claim them). I doubt, though, that Goliath and the other gargoyles would work for Bruno. For one thing, they certainly wouldn't be willing to serve as "flunkeys" (and Xanatos is intelligent enough not to press the issue in this situation). Also, it would conflict with their goals; their mission is to protect Manhattan and its inhabitants, and some of Bruno's activities for Xanatos would be likely to be quite the reverse, involving some of Xanatos's less ethical and legal schemes which Goliath would never agree to being a part of.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, August 15, 2002 06:48:15 PM
IP: 63.208.62.56

GEMINI - You wrote: [Do they have Gargoyles on VHS or DVD?Ive never found it in stores]

The first season of GARGOYLES was released on VHS. I'm not sure as to the availability of these tapes anymore though; it has been a while since they were released. (I do know that the Disney website has a page up listing them with episode synopsis and a video clip or two. Click my name to go to the page.) Try searching online stores like Suncoast or BestBuy; they might still have some tapes available. If that doesn't work you could always try E-Bay.

The first five episodes (AWAKENINGS) were released as GARGOYLES THE MOVIE; This release however was an edited together version of the five episodes.

The rest of the first season (THRILL OF THE HUNT through REAWAKENING) was released on 4 tapes with two episodes per tape. That's all that was officially released. The second season never made it to VHS; the only way to get the episodes now is either to see the slightly edited versions on Toon Disney (most of the episodes are untouched; but here and there some minor annoying edits were made to fit Toon Disney standards - I still have an edits list; I'll probably post it to the newsgroup later today) or to get copies someone taped off of TV when the show was in syndication.

There is a GARGOYLES DVD in the works; it should be out sometime in 2003. We don't know exactly what its going to have but a good bet is that it is going to be a release of AWAKENINGS. Greg Weisman is involved on some level in the DVD (and Disney does tend to put out quality DVDs) so its also a good bet that we'll probably get the unedited version of those episodes.

(What I wonder is if it will be in episode format on the Disc or if they'll try to make a new splicing that would simply be less edited. I hope that they release it as uncut individual episodes - that way it would blend in better with any future episode releases instead of being a "movie" followed by volumes of episodes.)

You wrote: [Who was Goliaths second-in-command after Demona? Wasn't it Brooklyn?]

Yes, Brooklyn was appointed Goliath's second in command; the episode that this happened in was UPGRADE.



TODD - You wrote: [given that Xanatos is no longer at odds with the gargoyles, we may not see that much of him even if the show returns; of course, on the other hand, Bruno is - I understand - Xanatos's Chief of Security, so he might have some role in cases where Xanatos is continuing to work on the Eyrie Building's defenses]

What I wonder is why Xanatos didn't try to use Bruno and whatever was left of his goon squad as a line of defense in THE GATHERING? After all Xanatos didn't know that the Gargoyles would come to help him; as far as he knew he was on his own. Could it be possible that he fired him after one too many fiasco's and that the events of MONSTERS was the last straw in Bruno's career with Xanatos? Or did he have him working on something else at the time that kept him out of NYC and away from the Eyrie Building? And if so then what could it have been? (I wonder about all the schemes that Xanatos had in motion around the time of HUNTERS MOON and how exactly he would deal with them given the new status quo he established with the Clan?)

We could have an interesting angle here - Bruno was an adversary of the Gargoyles but he didn't have (or at least didn't appear to have) any personal hatred for them; they were just another assignment for him to deal with. Now with the new status quo, and given that he's in charge of Eyrie Security, this puts him in the position of having to protect them. Plus it puts the Gargoyles in the position of having to be incorporated into his security proceedures as well as obey his security directives. They could be Bruno's new Goon Squad :-) :-)

You wrote: [Yep, I've also wondered about the blonde member myself]

Personally I think that she survived, that she probably wasn't even on the submarine that went down; after all the goons that we did see were all the other male members of the squad - she might have been off doing something else or on another supply run. And I think that she would show up again in any reconstituted Goon Squad - she and Bruno are really the two constants of the goon squad and without either of them all we have are generic Xanatos goons (in other words, redshirts to quote Star Trek Lingo :-) )



Anyone ever get the feeling that its possible that Bruno and Vinnie might be related in some way? Maybe even brothers?

They are voiced by the same actor but they do have some other similarities - both of them are in security, and both of them have had unsuccessful run-ins with Gargoyles. And both at one point had the upper hand on Goliath (Vinnie with the Pie and Bruno during AWAKENINGS 3 when they took down Goliath before the chase in the park). Also Vinnie can't seem to hold a job while Bruno can't seem to get fired fro his security gig despite consistant failure. It could be that Bruno is the anti-Vinnie. :-) It would be a nice angle and yet another interconnection of characters in the series.



BUD-CLARE - You wrote: [Well, see, there's your problem... You've actually been reading it all these years. I had only read about three issues of it in my life before jms took over. So, no problem. ;)]

For you. :-) For me its just another book that I can just flip through in the store and save money on. At this point I think that largely I've moved on from Marvel and DC; they just don't interest me as much anymore - I'd rather waste, uh I mean responsibly spend :-) my money on TPB or on anothologies. NewType USA, Super Manga Blast, and Shonen Jump interest me more than anything that's coming out of the Spider and X-book offices. (And with Thunderbolts getting a reboot soon, that's just one more nail in the coffin of my connection with anything Marvel; DC at least might have an Elseworlds here and there that I might pick up. Otherwise my next batch of dollar bills is going on stuff like GTO, Peach Girl, 3X3 Eyes, Oh My Goddess, Lone Wolf and Cub, and Astro Boy.)

You wrote: [have you tried Midnight Nation? It's very good.]

Not really. I flipped through an issue once but it didn't really catch my interest.

You wrote: [Quantum Leap syndrome?]

You know - pop in, get the plot handed to you by a being standing outside the reality your in, get to work setting that plot in motion, accomplish mission regardless of the amount of time it takes, and leave without really being able to enjoy the fruits of your labor so that you can head off to the next mission.

Exiles isn't as bad as I've just made it sound with that but still some issues do end up like that. The book is better when it sticks to plain character interaction and away from specific plot. I am a bit suprised though that its still going considering the way the X-books are - after all its upbeat most of the time, its got some continuity and there is tons of characterization. That means that it can't last long; can't have an X-book doing any of those things. Gets the audience expectation up for the other books and angries up the blood. :-) :-)
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Thursday, August 15, 2002 01:01:59 PM
IP: 12.88.91.56

Before I forget, I wanted to ask if anyone has any of those Goliath bookmarks from the Gathering. I don't know the vendor who was selling them and was hoping that a) they come in here and lurk or something or b) someone in here knows the vendor and could possibly bring this to their attention.

I lost mine at the Gathering and can't find it anywhere. So any help is appreciated :D.
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Thursday, August 15, 2002 12:51:45 PM
IP: 129.120.35.51

Airwalker> Re: Spider-man "Either do a reboot or keep going but don't go backward over and over again."
Well, see, there's your problem... You've actually been reading it all these years. I had only read about three issues of it in my life before jms took over. So, no problem. ;)
(btw, have you tried Midnight Nation? It's very good. Now if I could only get the rest of the issues... I'll have 9, 10, and 12 as soon as I go over to the post office to pick up my package, but 11 is being a bit more elusive, for some reason.)

Aaron> "<<Good, that'll save me the trouble of posting a counter-rant. :P>> Which is, I think, a good thing. "
Damn right. I don't need that kind of stress in my life, and I'm sure you don't, either. ;)

Airwalker> "Its not perfect and sometimes suffers from Quantum Leap syndrome"
Quantum Leap syndrome?

Todd> "If we do adopt it, I'll most likely be one of the small group of people engaged in handling the "over-asked" questions, since I'm the one who currently clears questions for Greg."
Maybe you could just sort the questions into two separate queues, and leave most of the actual question answering to others, since I'm sure that just reading through all those questions takes up a lot of your time.

Forever Knight> I did like the episode where Janette died. I kind of hated for her to die, since she was likely my favorite, but she was old, and it was a relatively good way to die.
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Thursday, August 15, 2002 12:23:30 PM
IP: 129.21.10.25

matt> I'd take the characteristics more along the lines of those are basic characteristics of Gargoyles. Almost every human has the basic ear structure, basic face structure, basic nose structures, etc. Now variations are made on these basic structures, but nothing too differant.

Now since Gargoyles are Gargoyles and not Humans, there's obviously going to be differances in trait variations. I.e. someone might have a differant tail, or someone might just look like an animal, blah, blah blah. So, i think it's more like you found underlying characteristics that all Gargoyles share that slight variations are built upon.

On a side note, I got bored at work yesterday, so I decided to figure out how old most of the main characters would be today. Goliath and the remenants of his rookery would be 32, Hudson would be 62, the Trio would be 22, and so would Angela. I didn't know Angela's age exactly at first so I had to figure the aging process on Avalon, which took about 5-10 minutes (I am not a math person ;}). Anyways, when she was picked up in 1995, she was around 19 (not counting leap years). The crew on Avalon would still be 19 today since it takes about 8,000 of our days to be a year in Avalon (365x24). Of course I told my boss what I was doing and she gave me this, "What the hell are you on?" look. lol :P

I'll get to the DCV later.
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Thursday, August 15, 2002 09:30:34 AM
IP: 129.120.35.51

AIRWALKER - Yep, I've also wondered about the blonde member myself - the only member of the Xanatos Goon Squad apart from Bruno who really stood out. Of course, we never did see Bruno himself again (and, given that Xanatos is no longer at odds with the gargoyles, we may not see that much of him even if the show returns; of course, on the other hand, Bruno is - I understand - Xanatos's Chief of Security, so he might have some role in cases where Xanatos is continuing to work on the Eyrie Building's defenses in the events of the gargoyles' enemies launching attacks upon the place - not to mention his own personal enemies and rivals).

By the way, today, August 15, is the anniversary of Macbeth's "death" in battle against Canmore in 1057. (And yesterday, August 14, was the anniversary of Macbeth's victory over Duncan in 1040).
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, August 15, 2002 07:25:32 AM
IP: 65.57.56.21

2things I need to know.1.Do they have Gargoyles on VHS or DVD?Ive never found it in stores or even a damn book.Parden my swearing.Some times it just pops out.2.I forgot this.For osme reason I keep forgeting it.Who was goliaths second-in command after demonia.Wasn't it Brooklyn.
Gemini_Bloodian - [gemini_blodoian@battleancients.every1.net]
AZ, USA
Thursday, August 15, 2002 04:23:08 AM
IP: 216.114.220.202

Airwalker> my point about Goliath is that despite the racial differences around the world with other gargoyles, most clans have members that share some, if not all, of their features with him, and thats either on purpose or just a coincidence.

"Monsters"> funny that everyone is talking about the similarity between this episode and the beginning of "Heritage" cuz when i first started taping the show on VHS, i missed taping "Monsters" cuz when i watched the first couple minutes i thought it was "Heritage" and thought that i already had the episode on tape, so i turned off the VCR and didn't get "Monsters" on video for 5 years when i finally bought the series on tape offline. so because of the similarity between this episode and "Heritage" i didn't get to see it for 5 years!

as for the Loch Ness Clan, i thought perhaps they knew that Goliath and Co were at the Loch and for one reason or another CHOSE not to introduce themselves. i found that more interesting.

and as for how a Loch Ness population survives in a relatively small and lifeless lake, i think deep underwater there is a series of water filled caverns that lead to the sea where the monsters go to feed, and that the lake itself, due to the protection from ocean going predators and the protection of the LN CLan, is used for a breeding ground. makes sense within the episode. thats just my theory though...

later kiddos
matt
Thursday, August 15, 2002 03:30:04 AM
IP: 216.178.8.67

AARON - You wrote: [How far into the series have you seen?]

I got to the area of episode 12-15; the one where Inu-Yasha's Full Moon Vulnerability shows up for the first time. I think that's the arc right before the Thunder Brothers show up. I haven't seen that much of the series; I'm way behind on seeing what has been fansubbed to this point.

You wrote: [I don't want to spoiler things if you haven't gotten to the Thunder Brothers arc yet.]

I read the Manga dealing with that arc; I just haven't seen the Anime version of it yet.

You wrote: [There's at least two major changes there. There's the bit where the more human looking one (Hiten or Manten, I forget which is which) brings out his girl for the evening.]

I remember how they did this in the Manga; I'm not suprised that they made some changes to tone it down a bit. I figured that it wouldn't make it to any afternoon time slot exactly intact. (I admit that it is a bit of a shame; I would rather see it happen as it did in the manga. But then again I do remember that the creative team consulted Takahashi about the changes they were making and she consented to them so it doesn't make it such a big deal for me. Not enough that I'd stop watching the show or get overly annoyed.)

You wrote: [Don't get me wrong, I've enjoyed what I've seen of the anime, but I would have enjoyed it more if they'd been more faithful to the manga.]

From what I've seen they largely have been faithful to the basic core of the story from the Manga as well as the characterization even though there has been some slight toning of the blood and gore. The anime is at the end of the day just an adaption of the manga to TV format and not an exact translation of the manga to animation. So as long as they stay largely faithful it doesn't bother me too much. (I do want to see the filler arcs; I heard that they got in touch with Takahashi to consult about what future plans she has in the Manga so that the Anime doesn't conflict with them. That's where we'll see how faithful the anime stays to the source characterizations.)

You wrote: [But digital bikinis aside, there's still Happosai's underwear fetish...]

I'd love to see a Toonami answer for that! I'm sure that it would be hillarious :-) (After all Master Roshi's underwear fetish in DragonBall was turned into a bellybutton fetish - I wonder what the hell they'd come up with for Happosai.)

You wrote: [I know a guy who insists that if MI was cast live action, and billed as a "Friends" type of sitcom it would be a hit in the US.]

A live action MI was done in Japan. It bombed. I could see an American version doing slightly better but I still stand by KOR over MI. And I didn't even really like KOR that much! MI was good but the anime just dragged on in places; and I never got the same feeling from the manga which I thought carried it through better. (Although with the Manga I could just sit through and read the entire thing in a day or two - the anime was a chore going through.)



MATT - You wrote: [was his common features coincidece or was he made to be the typical gargoyle on purpose?]

Well he is an archtype character on which the entire series rests so you could look at it being done on purpose. But I think that your reading too much into just the Gargoyles we've seen in the series. Goliath doesn't share THAT many features; and if the series was continued we'd have come across much more variation in Gargoyles. After all Lock Ness has aquatic Gargoyles and London has animalistic Gargoyles and Guatemala has jungle like animalistic Gargoyles.



GREG - You wrote: [Repetitive elements. We had multiple story editors working on multiple episodes.]

This was probably the only thing that really worked against the episode for me. The episode only really got interesting for me once the cast started to move slightly away from the Nessie plot and into characterization. Sevarius and his interaction with Angela as well as Goliath's reactions throughout the episode to her being missing and then in Sevarious custody were what really made it interesting for me; I really didn't care that much for Nessie that much. And seeing this after HERITAGE I was a bit worried that the show would start to repeat itself very strongly throughout however long the World Tour was going to last. I'm glad that this wasn't the case and it just happened to be a coincidence that these two similier episodes were placed so closely to each other.

You wrote: [Very weak animation -- some of the weakest of the series -- removed much of the mystery and mood from the boards that Frank directed.]

The animation didn't bother me so much although as you point out it did take away some of the mood at some points. But since I was really more interested in the characterization than the plot of this episode I tended to pay more attention to the scenes of character interaction (such as Sevarious and Angela or Goliath and Elisa after they were captured) than to the other stuff.

You wrote: [It takes an important step toward evolving Angela's relationship with Goliath.]

This was the angle that held me through the episode; I didn't really care for Nessie aside for my interest in what Sevarius might want her for and for that one scene where Angela meets her for the first time. But the fathering aspects coming out in Goliath's reaction to everything, his desperation in contrast to how he behaved when Elisa was missing in the last episode that made this episode worth watching. (In a way being so close to HERITAGE did make the difference in reaction more noticable; I don't think that I would have really immediately linked the two seperate reactions together if the episodes didn't immediately follow one another. Maybe this episode's plot would feel a little different if the animation had been stronger - I might have been more interested in the mystery rather than in just seeing how the character would react.)

I loved Angela's reaction first to the Sevarius revelation and then to his actions towards Nessie. Confusion, astonishment, concern, and then anger. All at once and all for different reasons - it was very well done. Carried very well.

You wrote: [And if that weren't enough to make the ep worthwhile, we also get another wonderful over-the-top performance from Tim Curry as Dr. Anton Sevarius. He has a TON of great lines in this]

Those were great lines; another saving grace for this episode. He kept things interesting with good dialogue; Tim Curry really breathed life into the character.

You wrote: [But because of the name "Big Daddy" and because we were intentionally using the L.N.Monsters to parallel and comment on Goliath and Angela's father-daughter relationship, many people thought that Big Daddy was Nessie's dad.]

I didn't think that. After all if Nessie is dying in captivity from loneliness, isn't it more likely she's going to be missing her significant other rather than her father? I can see though, given the Goliath/Angela Father/Daughter angle how it could seem that way. It might have been a better idea to have slipped a line in earlier in the episode during the tourist tour mentioning something like Nessie might also be known as Big Daddy with an added revelation being that there is actually more than one Lock Ness Monster around. Still it didn't bother me.

You wrote: [Elisa knows they haven't arrived in Manhattan because it's too quiet and because the water's too clean. Of course, Loch Ness is famous for having MURKY, MURKY water. Not that the water is "dirty" exactly, the way New York Harbor is. But it's hard to figure Elisa would think of the Loch as clean either. And I knew that. Don't know how that got by me.]

Didn't bother me. While clean might have been an understatement, it does further solidify her truly native New Yorker attitude. (Although again it was sort of parallel with the similier scene in HERITAGE.) That was a major constant in the World Tour that helped balance out the neverending feeling it had - cause for a New Yorker once you've lived here, it really ruins you for living anywhere else. So Elisa could never really settle for anything short of actual NYC - helps it play great later in ILL MET BY MOONLIGHT.

Besides compared with NYC water, natural Lock Ness water is sort of clean. :-) :-) It sure isn't the Hudson. :-)

You wrote: [Of course, this begs the question as to what the Loch Ness clan was doing throughout this little adventure.]

They were off doing something exciting with the New Olympian Clan :-)

Seriously I think that given that there was a Lock Ness family there might be tons more Lock Ness Creatures which means that the Clan might not have realized that Nessie was missing. Or the time period she was missing in might not be as long as we might think. Or they could have been looking for her but just happen to have been on the other side of the Lock; then when they see the sub explode at the end they come to investigate only to miss Goliath and Company by a few seconds. (I don't think that them showing up would have been great - it would have tied even further to a HERITAGE comparison.)

Isn't the Loch and the area around it a big place? So it could be possible to visit the area and not happen to come across them. And given the tourism I don't think that the Clan would be willing to hang around the area that Goliath and Company were at - they did land near civilization, near the tourist portion of the Loch. It does fit to have the native Gargoyles not be in that area.

You wrote: [Angela just holds her breath forever down there at the end.]

I got the impression that she was starting to drown when Goliath showed up and that she wasn't going to last much longer if he hadn't had that mask with him.

You wrote: [And heck, we killed off four more characters. Sevarius and Bruno survived. But I think we have to assume that the other four members of the Goon Squad are gone for good.]

What about the blond Goon Squad member? I didn't see her among the crew that went down. She and Bruno were the only members that stood out from that Goon Squad - Bruno by personality and the blond visually. Any future Goon Squad wouldn't be right unless at least the two of them showed up. It wouldn't balance out.



TODD - You wrote: [Of course, the episode's big for the revelation of Angela being Goliath's daughter (of course, I suspect that we all knew that, deep down inside, before "Monsters" ever aired)]

Well technically it was brought up in AVALON 2; they just didn't outright say it, only imply it. And visually she's identical to Demona except for Coloring and choice of Jewlery. (Technically she's different from her in forehead horns; but that isn't really noticable with Demona wearing that tiara all the time. That's why it was so hillarious to me in THE RECKONING when Angela mentions that "I'm told there is a resemblence" - a huge understatement if I ever heard one.)

Srill it was nice though to have them say it outright in the series. Sometimes subtle hints aren't enough - sometimes something has to be bluntly said out loud.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Wednesday, August 14, 2002 11:19:09 PM
IP: 12.88.115.61

Ah, a new ramble! Thanks, Greg!

"Monsters" isn't one of the most popular "Gargoyles" episodes, certainly, but the premise behind it does make sense to me. After all, the gargoyles are "monsters" from Scotland. And who is the most famous monster from Scotland? The Loch Ness Monster, of course. So it makes sense to me that they'd cross paths at some point.

I do agree about the animation (though I hadn't even thought about the parallels to "Heritage" before Greg mentioned them). The first time that I saw it, though, I rather liked it - maybe in part because of the Scottish setting (I spent my boyhood years in England, with a visit or two to Wales and Scotland - I even visited Loch Ness with my parents briefly, though we didn't see anything unusual in the loch - so there's a bit of a nostalgic element there).

Does anybody else feel just a bit sorry for the yuppie couple - running into the gargoyles even while they're on holiday? (Although, after seeing the way that Margot treated the gargs, especially in "The Goliath Chronicles", maybe she deserves it).

Of course, the episode's big for the revelation of Angela being Goliath's daughter (of course, I suspect that we all knew that, deep down inside, before "Monsters" ever aired) - not to mention the last appearance of the Xanatos Goon Squad (only Bruno survives, and we never even see him again); a rare case of their killing off recurring characters.

Sevarius gets his usual fun "over-the-top" moments. (I've sometimes wondered whether he was working for Xanatos in this one, or just on his own. Given the presence of Bruno and the others in his service, most likely the former).

And we get a hint at the existence of the Loch Ness clan (so Anton was right after all; kind of) - though I agree with Greg that one really can't help but wonder where they were during the episode.

I couldn't help but feel a little sorry for Elisa; her attempt to reach Matt fails. (The guy really needs to clean out his answering machine more often - or else he gets a lot of phone calls. Wonder just who all those other phone calls came from - does the Gargoyles Universe have its own version of the Lone Gunmen, perhaps?)

Incidentally, I recently bought a book about the Loch Ness Monster at a library book sale; it's a children's book (or at least, one for young readers) by one Elwood D. Baumann. Quite informative (definitely slanted towards Nessie's existence, by the way). It's probably a bit dated, since it was published in the early 70's, but might be worth looking out for.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, August 14, 2002 06:06:39 PM
IP: 65.56.168.19

For the DCV:

Rambled on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 05:22:49 PM
Chapter XXXX: "Monsters"

Time to ramble...

I think this episode had a fun story written and edited by Cary Bates. And I know it had a great moody storyboard directed by Frank Paur. But it suffered from two major problems...

1. Repetitive elements. We had multiple story editors working on multiple episodes. I was overseeing all of them, but sometimes things did get away from me. "Monsters" has a number of elements in common with "Heritage" which had only just preceeded it in the line up. It makes "Monsters" seem a bit more tired than it really is, through no fault of Cary's. For example, we open with a Sea Monster. One of our female cast members is lost and nearly drowned. Goliath searches frantically. Etc. Even my five-year-old son Benny was convinced, "We just saw this one." It just felt very been there done that. My fault.

2. Very weak animation -- some of the weakest of the series -- removed much of the mystery and mood from the boards that Frank directed. I know we called tons of retakes on this ep, but there was a limit. Secrets were given away too early. What's a monster submarine and what's a monster is too easily discernable at the start. We were hoping for more silhouette's in that murky Loch. Throw in some really atrocious character moments (like when Angela wakes up in chains) and you've got an ep that's unimpressive at best.


And yet, there's much in this show that I really like.

It takes an important step toward evolving Angela's relationship with Goliath. Though G's not aware of it, Sevarius reveals to Angela that she is his biological daughter. Having grown up around her adoptive *HUMAN* parents, that notion of biological imperative must have seeped in. She already KNEW that Goliath was one of her ROOKERY parents. But this revelation ignites her curiousity and need. I find it interesting anyway. My eight-year-old daughter Erin was likewise fascinated with this aspect. She was anxious for Angela to tell Goliath about her discovery. Of course, Goliath knows in a 'shrug' sense. It's visually obvious to him. It just isn't programmed to be significant for him.

And if that weren't enough to make the ep worthwhile, we also get another wonderful over-the-top performance from Tim Curry as Dr. Anton Sevarius. He has a TON of great lines in this (all quotations approximate)...

"If it gets any more sacharine in there, I'll have to shove a finger down my throat."

"It must be awful to wake up in chains first thing in the morning."

"Thank heaven for little girls... and DNA markers."

"He's your very own flesh and stone."

"Enough to make my mind boggle..."

-----

But there were other problems too. In my mind and Cary's Big Daddy and Nessie were mates (with little ones revealed at the end). But because of the name "Big Daddy" and because we were intentionally using the L.N.Monsters to parallel and comment on Goliath and Angela's father-daughter relationship, many people thought that Big Daddy was Nessie's dad. I'm not sure it matters too much. But (unintentional) confusion can't help.

------

ELISA

Elisa knows they haven't arrived in Manhattan because it's too quiet and because the water's too clean. Of course, Loch Ness is famous for having MURKY, MURKY water. Not that the water is "dirty" exactly, the way New York Harbor is. But it's hard to figure Elisa would think of the Loch as clean either. And I knew that. Don't know how that got by me.

But Elisa does have some fun lines here and there:

"I'm not really the adventuring type."
"Some creatures are meant to remain legends."
"It's a show... Themeparks do this five times a day."
(Yes, we weren't above giving a gentle knock to the parent company.)

(Of course, when Elisa said that last bit, Erin said, "I don't think so." Benny noticed the submarine was metal and thought it was a robot. It took him a while to get the notion that it was a ship or sub.)

------

LITTLE CONTINUITY TOUCHES

Elisa leaves a message on Matt's machine. But the tape is full. This was done for two reasons. Or three...
1. We felt that Elisa would and should attempt to contact someone.
2. We wanted to prolong the agony (at least in the audience's minds) as to what happened to our travelers from the point of view of those left behind.
3. We were in the middle of a tier, and couldn't guarantee (as we saw with "Kingdom" that the episode would air in order. We didn't want Elisa to successfully contact anyone, because it might screw up continuity.


Nice to see Brendan & Margot taking a little vacation on the Loch, huh?

----

Angela says to Nessie: "I bet you've never been this close to a real live gargoyle either." But of course Angela's wrong. One of the reasons that Nessie gets so friendly so fast with Angela is BECAUSE she recognizes her as a gargoyle and knows that gargoyles are friendly to the Monsters of the Loch.

Of course, this begs the question as to what the Loch Ness clan was doing throughout this little adventure. I don't have a grea answer -- YET -- but for now, I'm just going to fall back on the notion that they were aware that Nessie was missing, but didn't know the cause. (It is a big murky loch, after all.) And yes, I know that's a feeble explanation, but it will have to do until I figure out a better one.

----

The title "Monsters" is another one of my thematic one word titles. Angela hits the nail on the head when she calls Sevarius the only monster around here. It's central to the series theme. But again, maybe too obvious, contributing to the weakness of the episode.
-----

We had some trouble with the animation of the scene where Bruno confronts Goliath and Elisa right after they escape the dungeon. It forced us to reuse Jeff Bennett's "All right." line twice in a row.

Speaking of Jeff, my wife Beth thought Bruno sounded very Jack Nicolson. I pointed out that when Bruno was created, way back in "Awakening" we asked Jeff to make him a young George C. Scott. Beth couldn't hear that at all.

Benny used to love Bruno. Not only does Bruno barely register with him now. He doesn't remember ever liking the character. Erin asked him if he remembered the Xanatos Goon Squad. He didn't respond.

-----

Another weakness... Angela just holds her breath forever down there at the end.

And when Goliath does get there, her chains pop off too easily, begging the question why she couldn't free herself.

I know I keep talking about the ep's flaws. But like all the 66 chapters, I really am more fond of it than critical. I do love seeing Goliath launched as a living torpedo, for example. There are a bunch of little things that I like.

And heck, we killed off four more characters. Sevarius and Bruno survived. But I think we have to assume that the other four members of the Goon Squad are gone for good.

But it wasn't one of our best efforts, I'll have to admit.

Sorry 'bout that...

Anyway, that's my ramble. Where's yours?
Greg Weisman
Wednesday, August 14, 2002 05:29:47 PM
IP: 67.224.11.182

Spacebabie> <<can we make it a rule that if somebody does not shut off their cell phone then it is okay for us to punch them?>> If I ran the world, a spike would come up through their seat.

Airwalker> <<In the episodes so far there was only one major change and that was Inu-Yasha getting his eye ripped out. That was in the Manga but changed to a spell instead in the Anime because the eye ripping thing was too violent for the time slot it was in.>> How far into the series have you seen? I've been watching unsubbed eps recorded straight off Japanese TV. I don't want to spoiler things if you haven't gotten to the Thunder Brothers arc yet. There's at least two major changes there. There's the bit where the more human looking one (Hiten or Manten, I forget which is which) brings out his girl for the evening. (I don't remember if her outfit from the manga, a loincloth and a strategically draped snake, made it into the anime or not) Anyway he gets annoyed that his brother got so wrapped up in grabbing Kagome that he forgot the shards, and takes it out on the girl. In the anime he waves his hand and burns her to a crisp. In the manga, he puts his fist through her face. After Inu-Yasha kills the goofy brother, the other one "absorbs his power". In the anime, this happens mostly off-screen with some light effects. In the manga, he takes his dead brother's heart out of his chest and eats it.

Don't get me wrong, I've enjoyed what I've seen of the anime, but I would have enjoyed it more if they'd been more faithful to the manga.

<<Ranma 1/2 does have too much nudity although they could always do the digital bikini thing that Tenchi had on Toonami.>> I would protest that that would make absolutely no sense, but these are the people who gave us "You can't have that kind of tea!" But digital bikinis aside, there's still Happosai's underwear fetish...

<<Maison Ikkuko... ...but its too slow to be shown on American TV.>> I know a guy who insists that if MI was cast live action, and billed as a "Friends" type of sitcom it would be a hit in the US.

Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
Wednesday, August 14, 2002 03:47:39 PM
IP: 209.33.140.99

hey guys and girls!

i have a couple comments that might get a Gargoyles-related conversation going. i hope everyone feels free to take my comments and run with them, i'd love to hear opinions...

i've been thinking alot about gargoyle biology and appearance lately, and the other day decided to do a little experiment. i wrote down every gargoyle that was named in the series, not including Beasts, but including everyone else who had a name, from Goliath to Angela, to Jade to Leo to Sora. i then wrote down each of their features, coloring, wings, ears, body type, horns, beaks, hair, tails, etc. after comparing them all i found that the most common features that all gargoyles share are this: brown or purple coloring (in Iago's case, both), the standard Goliath type wings, standard Goliath type ears, two clawed feet body type, two small horns over each eye, no beak, black hair, and the standard tail. two things were interesting about this, for one thing, i thought it was cool that every gargoyle clan we've seen so far has at least most of these features among its members and perhaps the original gargoyles looked something like this and mutated from there. the other interesting thing about it is that Goliath fits every category perfectly. he is the only gargoyle to have every common feature. lots of gargoyles have purple coloring (Angela, Demona, Iago, Opheila, Una, Sora) many have his wings (Broadway, Hudson, Jade) the list of gargoyles that share his ears and body type is too long to list, similar horns are seen in the Mayan and Ishimuran Clan, most gargs like him don't have a beak, most gargs have his black hair, and almost every garg has his standard tail. my question is this: was his common features coincidece or was he made to be the typical gargoyle on purpose? comments welcome...

the other thing i was thinking about was the appearences of the English Clan. Greg told us that they all looked like what we saw in "MIA" or variations of them. i put together a list of everything an English garg could resemble:
various types of birds, gryphons, horses, pegasi, unicorns, lions, and maybe bears (a variation of the lion type). i was wondering if anyone else had any other ideas about them or any comments about my thoughts...

sorry if i rambled, later!
matt
Wednesday, August 14, 2002 03:11:21 PM
IP: 207.230.48.33

AARON - You wrote: [I disagree. If shows like Berserk, Ruroni Kenshin, and Evangelion can air in Japan, I don't see anything to make them tone down Inu-Yasha.]

There is a difference between the shows that you mentioned and Inu-Yasha. Berserk and Eva were late night shows while Inu-Yasha is an afternoon after school show.

It might not seem like it given that the Japanese tend to be more liberal in the attitude towards blood, nudity, and violence than American TV but they do have S&P - Rurouni Kenshin for example had problems with the amount of blood that he was spilling; they came up with a creative solution in shifting the shading and color scheme. That's why in scenes with an excessive amount of blood the color might shift to green.

And Berserk had tons of problems even in its late night slot with the amount of blood and violence it had - that's one of the reasons it didn't get a second season done. The only reason for the upcoming second season is that it was specifically requested and partially financed by the Anime Company that licensed it here in the US - otherwise it would never have been done.

You wrote: [Admittedly, I haven't read all the manga yet]

The Manga has a bit more gore than the Anime but not by much. Its not as toned down as it might seem - for example in the first episode the Demon Worm was eating a Horse before she found Kagome in the Village and started chasing her for the Four Soul's Jewel. The only difference between the Anime and Manga is that in the Manga when she dropped the Horse to the Ground, its guts were hanging out and lying around vividly while in the Anime its obviously gotten a bite taken out of it and the corpse has a really bloodly wound, you don't see guts lying everywhere and leaking out of the animal.

In the episodes so far there was only one major change and that was Inu-Yasha getting his eye ripped out. That was in the Manga but changed to a spell instead in the Anime because the eye ripping thing was too violent for the time slot it was in.

You wrote: [With the American appetite for anime expanding, I think in the next ten years, whether something can be shown on TV in the US will come to have major impact on the industry in Japan. There's simply too much money in America. If your products can't be sold into syndication here, you're cut off from the gravy train.]

I do agree that the American Audience is going to really be taken into account in the future by Japanese Companies. But at the same time the current products that are showing up here that aren't that toned down are having an impact on some S&P here. Toonami and Adult Swim might not shift things overnight but in the future things might loosen up, if not to the Japanese extent, then at least slightly more than they are now. After all who could have imagined that something like Yu Yu Hakusho could have been shown here? After all the main character dies in the first minute of the episode and spends most of the show dealing with death - and its not being changed. Its a far cry from "Another Dimension" or "The Home for Infinite Losers" that we were being treated to just a few years before.

Who could have believed that we'd get shows like UC Gundam and the upcoming Char's Counterattack movie? Or that Cowboy Bebop with all the violence and death (even though they have toned down the blood) could have made it to TV? They are affecting us as much as we are affecting them.

You wrote: [And on a side note, I believe Inu-Yasha was toned down with the hopes of finally getting a Takahashi series onto American television.]

I'm not saying that they might not have had the hopes of an American release on their minds when they created the series. It might have been. But the first concern is to get the show on TV and to have it last a while. I think that they concentrated specifically on the audience and standards that were immediately in front of them. And Japanese daytime (specifically Afternoon - the old Disney Afternoon hour over here) does have tighter standards than other time slots. What they could do on Berserk at midnight they couldn't do on Inu-Yasha in the Afternoon.

(To be honest, like I said above, its not toned down THAT much from the Manga - it does stay faithful to the Manga storyline; its just much less gory and bloody. The only just started to move away from the Manga to original TV storylines because they were coming too close to catching up with the Manga; I haven't seen those Original Storylines but with those we could possibly argue that they might be dumbing down or toning down the series for a potential American audience. But the Manga based storylines seem to have done well.

Its also possible that the differences could be due to the change in art studio - all other Takahashi anime was done by a different studio while Inu-Yash was done by Sunrise, the same people who brought us Gundam.)

You wrote: [Lum is too old, Ranma has too much nudity, and Maison Ikkoku is too boring, (I like the show, personally, but I don't think it would play well on CN next to DBZ and Yu Yu Hakasho]

Lum would never do well on American TV - its got to many Japanese cultural references. Its only good for a Hardcore Anime audience. (Animeigo is dubbing the Movies and OVAs for the DVD release - I wonder how that is going to come out. If I just go by UY Movie 2 which is the only one with a dub then it will be something to make the ears bleed. But I'll wait until I hear it before I condemn or praise it.)

Ranma 1/2 does have too much nudity although they could always do the digital bikini thing that Tenchi had on Toonami. But still I don't think that it is the sort of thing that would be that popular on American TV. Again this show is more the sort for a more Hardcore audience - casual TV viewers might not be interested.

As for Maison Ikkuko, I sort of liked this one too (although Godai is a damn wimp throughout too much of the series and it did feel too drawn out - the Manga is a hundred times better although the Anime vocal work is fabulous) but its too slow to be shown on American TV. It would lose audience and get cancelled long before it gets to the interesting parts. (Kimagure Orange Road might do better but the animation is a bit dated so that might land it in the same catagory as MI. But if I had to choose between the two of them I'd go with Kimagure Orange Road - it has enough action to keep people watching long enough for them to get into the plot.)



SPACEBABIE - You wrote: [I have heard so much about this series and I really want to see it, but my problem to seeing it was A) I couldn't find it and B) Lack of money]

Its a pretty good show although I've only seen it in Japanese; I can't say if the dub will be good or not although I hope that VIZ didn't dumb it down too much. (I do have a feeling though that we'll get a lot of "Darn It!" in the series.) It sticks pretty close to the Manga for most of the series although the recent episodes are filler arcs so that the Anime doesn't get ahead of the Manga. By the way for now Cartoon Network only has the rights to the first 52 episodes.

As for finding it, it'll be out on DVD soon although it'll only be three episodes per Disc. It's going to take forever for the series to be released completely - and thats without considering that its still producing new episodes in Japan. (Still its going to have a Japanese Track and however the dub turns out I really recommend seeing it in the original - the Japanese voice actors really bring the characters to life. And most of the cast is taken out of the Japanese Ranma 1/2 cast. Inu-Yasha is voiced in Japanese by Male Type Ranma.)

You wrote: [Awsome news, of course I'm all ready psyched about He-man making a return. It will be on CN this Friday.]

I knew that I forgot to mention something! I was a little suprised to see something like reappear on TV. Was this something that was previously made a few years ago or is this a new movie that was produced recently?
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Wednesday, August 14, 2002 12:49:06 PM
IP: 12.88.94.90

I saw SIGNS, can we make it a rule that if somebody does not shut off their cell phone then it is okay for us to punch them?


Aiwalker]----"Starting August 31 the series Inu-Yasha will be appearing on Adult Swim." I have heard so much about this series and I really want to see it, but my problem to seeing it was A) I couldn't find it and B) Lack of money. "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles will be returning to television soon. It almost seems like the people in charge of putting toons on the air are in a late 80's-early 90's series kick." Awsome news, of course I'm all ready psyched about He-man making a return. It will be on CN this Friday.


Mooncat<<<the last season NEVER HAPPENED.>>>I don't think I saw the third season. Like I didn't see most of TGC. I did see The Journey and we all know that is the only one that counts.

Jim R<<<but never watched it. What's it about?>>>I f I Remember the series. It was kind of like "Angel" except Nick was a cop instead of a Private investigator.

Spacebabie - [LadyAndromeda@smstars.zzn.com]
Orlando, Florida, U.S.A
Wednesday, August 14, 2002 12:09:40 PM
IP: 67.25.51.95

Forever Knight - The best vampire series ever *^_^* -- Centuries old vampire Nick Knight seeks redemption (he was a bad boy part of the time he was a vampire) and becomes a cop in Toronto, where the one human, Natalie who knows his secret works on a way to help him regain his lost humanity. Meanwhile, his ages old bad vampire master, La Croix keeps trying to lure him back to the dark side. The lovely vampire Jeanette runs the night club the Raven, and is one of the show's highlights, even if she isn't in every episode. Skanke, Nick's police partner, knows nothing about vampires and just thinks Nick is a bit on the weird side. Skanke is the wonderfully crass and tactless and totally human guy, who is also really a good detective. Third season Skanke dies and Jeanette 'leaves' -- which pretty much guts the show. Nick and Natalie are strong characters, the stars of the show, but Skanke and Jeanette were major supporting roles and their loss was a wound unhealing. New characters were introduced, far inferior to the previously established ones. The writing went a bit south third season as well. ack....

I highly recommend the series though, even with the poor third season, because as a whole it was a character driven fun fest of vampires, modern police mysteries interspersed with neat flashbacks a'la Highlander.

It's vampire fan candy.

Mooncat
>^,,^<


Mooncat
Wednesday, August 14, 2002 04:20:39 AM
IP: 68.102.23.36

http://www.scifi.com/fknight/ Has episode guides for Forever Knight. It was a show about a vampire cop on the road to redemption and trying to cure his vampirism. I thought that the main character, Nick Knight, was not really the most interesting one. Natalie Lambert, his unrequited love (reminds me of the goliath and elisa relationship) was far more interesting, and most of the other vampires were as well.

That said, I did love the show... especially whenever Janette graced the screen. She didn't get nearly enough air time in my opinion.
Princess Alexandria - [princess_alex24@hotmail.com]
WA, USA
Wednesday, August 14, 2002 12:28:55 AM
IP: 64.91.106.3

Maybe Greg caught word of our proposal to answer questions for him, and he immediately jumped into action fearing that any one answer not his could cost him his reputation!!! Hmm...nah...he's probably just found his small round of free time. :)

I remember hearing about "Forever Knight" but never watched it. What's it about? Provide any links to more info?

Graymonk> Yes, Gorebash mentioned sometime ago that he was working to implement a search feature and to throw all of Ask Greg into a MySQL database. I don't know what his progress is on the project though.
Jim R. - [jim@dialwforwarp.com]
Tuesday, August 13, 2002 09:54:36 PM
IP: 65.164.17.214

Just popping in to post a link of likely public interest... click my name to see a model of the tower being proposed to replace the broadcast antennas lost in the terrorist attacks on NYC last year.

For the record... if built this tower would be taller than the WTC towers were.
Patrick Toman
Tuesday, August 13, 2002 08:01:50 PM
IP: 67.38.244.51

Greg's answered a few more questions. Looks as though he's making some progress on the backload again.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, August 13, 2002 06:46:14 PM
IP: 65.57.57.8

TODD &/or GOREBASH - I was just scrolling down the "Ask Greg" questions being submitted page to make sure no one else has asked about "wynd riders" before, when a thought occured to me. Have you guys ever considered adding a "search" function to the AG archives? We might be able do cut down on all thses many, many repeated questions (who is Lex's mate for example) if people could search the archives quicker. I honestly think one of the reasons there are so many repeats is that people take a look at the long list of archives and think it'll take forever to look through all of them.
Graymonk - [bgray@upei.ca]
Tuesday, August 13, 2002 06:14:08 PM
IP: 137.149.84.20

Airwalker> <<It is much more toned down than that Manga. But I don't think that it was toned down in the Anime so it could sell in America but because there are some S&P standards in Japan, even if they are different from the ones we have here.>> I disagree. If shows like Berserk, Ruroni Kenshin, and Evangelion can air in Japan, I don't see anything to make them tone down Inu-Yasha. (Admittedly, I haven't read all the manga yet) <<If they were really going to tone it down to sell in America then they would have done much, much more toning than they did.>> I'm not so sure. They can always just paint all the demon blood blue or green or something, and call it ichor (or slime, more likely) and then splash as much of it as they want around, 'cause it's not "blood".

With the American appetite for anime expanding, I think in the next ten years, whether something can be shown on TV in the US will come to have major impact on the industry in Japan. There's simply too much money in America. If your products can't be sold into syndication here, you're cut off from the gravy train.

(And on a side note, I believe Inu-Yasha was toned down with the hopes of finally getting a Takahashi series onto American television. Lum is too old, Ranma has too much nudity, and Maison Ikkoku is too boring, (I like the show, personally, but I don't think it would play well on CN next to DBZ and Yu Yu Hakasho) So, Inu-Yasha's basically the one hope. It's modern, well-animated, action-packed, and being a Rumic series, near-infinite. It just needs a little toning down from the source material to make it palatable for American consumption. Take out a heart-eating here, an eye-gouging there, the odd fist through the head number, and it's money)

<<(I'm curious to see how Big O 2 comes out as its basically being done because Cartoon Network wanted it; and it will be premiering first in America. I hope that they don't tone down the story because of that - although with Big O it almost does seem like a series that was made to be shown on American TV.)>> Well, here's hoping.

Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
Tuesday, August 13, 2002 04:14:57 PM
IP: 209.33.140.99

AARON - You wrote: [I've been a little disappointed in the anime, as it has been toned down a fair bit from the manga, in what I can only assume was a conscious effort to sell the series in America.]

It is much more toned down than that Manga. But I don't think that it was toned down in the Anime so it could sell in America but because there are some S&P standards in Japan, even if they are different from the ones we have here. If they were really going to tone it down to sell in America then they would have done much, much more toning than they did.

(I'm curious to see how Big O 2 comes out as its basically being done because Cartoon Network wanted it; and it will be premiering first in America. I hope that they don't tone down the story because of that - although with Big O it almost does seem like a series that was made to be shown on American TV.)



FOREVER KNIGHT - I never watched this show and never really had the desire to do so. It was recommended to me though by tons of fans of the series - but again I never really wanted to see it that much.



I don't remember if I announced this in here or not but here's some good news for Robotech fans - Wildstorm officially has the rights to doing an original Robotech comic book and has already started work on it. Click on my name to go to the information link. (But its yet another in a long line of series revivals in various formats - good news for anyone trying to get a series revived in any format possible :-) )



Since we aren't doing DVC so far we might as well start on some other topic. Anyone have any suggestions?
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Tuesday, August 13, 2002 01:34:58 PM
IP: 12.88.116.21

Greg answered a few more questions. Only a little progress, but progress, all the same.

The next episode for DVC discussion is "Monsters", but I think that we'd better wait until Greg has an opportunity to post his ramble on it. It works better if we all do the episode the same week, rather than different weeks.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, August 13, 2002 07:49:42 AM
IP: 63.208.47.11

Forever Knight... I'd have to say that if they'd left Janette in it and left Vashon out it would have been a better last season. He brought nothing to the show
Princess Alexandria - [princess_alex24@hotmail.com]
WA, USA
Monday, August 12, 2002 09:43:36 PM
IP: 64.91.106.40

Third season had a few saving graces, I did like the episode where we find out one of Tracy's past lives was the violinist who was killed just for the taste of his blood. And I liked the characters Screed and Urd. A shame they were the background characters while Vachon was thrust into a starring role. That boy was lovely eye candy, but he could not act worth spit. Tracy wasn't so bad, good actress, but her role was woefully two dimensional for the greater part of the series. Her role as Becca Valentine on Andromeda showed her off really well.

Garg question... when are we doing the DCV discussions, and what episode are we on?

Well, back to the salt mines *^_~*
Mooncat
>^,,^<
Mooncat
Monday, August 12, 2002 09:28:02 PM
IP: 68.102.19.135

Mooncat > RE: Forever Knight. Here. Here. The last half of the 3rd season was a major travesty. I did like Tracy though.
kathy
Monday, August 12, 2002 08:35:14 PM
IP: 66.32.96.159

Forever Knight -- the last season NEVER HAPPENED. Skanke lives, Jeanette still runs the Raven, and that annoying Spaniard who speaks French all the time and the blonde who becomes Becca Valentine (a much better character for her) never existed!

Third season of FK is to me, what the Goliath Chronicles is to most Garg fans. A faintly horrific continuation of a beloved show that is not unlike watching the unintelligent ambling of a decaying corpse instead of a bright, living breathing loved one.

*dons black for mourning*

just woke up *^_^* and feeling the goth girl within

Mooncat
>^,,^<
Mooncat
Monday, August 12, 2002 04:24:13 PM
IP: 68.102.19.135

Airwalker> <<(I'm still a little suprised that its managed to make it to American TV - even by Adult Swim standards, its really bloody and gory; I mean rivers of blood and body parts flying everywhere.>> Heh. Actually, I've been a little disappointed in the anime, as it has been toned down a fair bit from the manga, in what I can only assume was a conscious effort to sell the series in America.

Leva> <<I've never seen a show ruined by bad writing and bad ideas as thoroughly as this one was.>> Well, Forever Knight's decision to kill off nearly everybody when they found out they weren't getting renewed has to be up there.

Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
Monday, August 12, 2002 01:47:33 PM
IP: 209.33.140.99

Hi'all :) I am back one more time to bug you... I have in my possession some old issues of Disney Adventures magazine and one TV Guide containing Gargoyles comics, and if any of you like to collect them, this is a great opportunity! ;) I also have a Gargoyles schedule school folder, so if any of you are interested in obtaining it or one of the magazines, drop me a line! ;) Prices are negociable, but I've hoping to get some reasonable offers... help a poor college student, hehe.
The list of magazines and comics is as such: 1) TV Guide: Oct. 19-25, 1996. Bill Clinton on cover. Has Gargoyles Halloween comic "Be Afraid of the Dark." 2) DA May 1995. Earth 2 on cover, Gargs comic "Take the A Train." 3) DA Nov. 1995. Goliath on cover, this one's the gem of the bunch! :) Behind the Scenes with "Gargoyles" article, Gargs comic "All Hallows Eve." 4) DA Dec. 1996. 101 Dalmatians on cover, Gargs comic "Lines of Allegiance Part 1." 5) DA Jan. 1997. World's Most Amazing Dogs on cover (border collie), Gargs comic "Lines of Allegiance Part 2." 6) DA May 1996. James and the Giant Peach on cover. Has "Lost in the Fun House" comic. 7) DA July 1996. Leslie Nielsen on cover, has Gargs comic "All in a Night's Work." 8) DA March 1997. A roaring lion, Timon, and Pumbaa on cover. Has again Garg comic "Lost in the Fun House." 9) DA Feb. 1997. Has Garg comic "A Study in Stone" plus 2-page summary introducing the show.
Hope to hear from a couple peeps! ;) Thanks,
Desdemona - [allykatty1@hotmail.com]
Monday, August 12, 2002 12:02:04 PM
IP: 198.81.129.193

Airwalker> I haven't found a really GOOD site. If you search for Beauty and the Beast, you'll find several, but they all seem to suffer from broken links and out-of-date info. Probably the best is:

http://www.beautyandthebeastfanclub.net/

Mmm. First year and a half of the series was very good, mostly because the actors were amazing. (Hamilton is decent. Ron Perlman is one of the most under-appreciated actors out there. Incidently, he's also cast in the next Star Trek movie -- I'm assuming because he does such amazing work when he's in makeup like that.)

Unfortunately, Linda Hamilton wanted to leave the show. Now, any sensible person would realize you can't have a Beauty and the Beast story without the Beauty! And that 90% of the show's fan appeal was the interaction between Vincent and Catherine, the love story.

But apparently the writers weren't sensible ... they could have ended the series on a happy note, they could have replaced Hamilton with another actor, or if they felt they HAD to kill her off, they could have done so without the mad scientist.

Instead, they tortured her to death over the course of several episodes after contriving an excuse for VIncent not to come running to the rescue (his empathic powers failed him). Around the same time, they also started really getting into the blood-and-guts special effects; at times I wasn't sure if I was watching Beauty and the Beast (an admitted chick flick love story, c'mon people!) or Freddy Krueger.

Anyway ... the writers must have been doing drugs. I've never seen a show ruined by bad writing and bad ideas as thoroughly as this one was.

Leva
Leva
Monday, August 12, 2002 09:59:11 AM
IP: 162.42.9.108

10th! whew, barely made it!
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Monday, August 12, 2002 09:09:08 AM
IP: 129.120.35.51

9th!
Leo
Monday, August 12, 2002 06:34:55 AM
IP: 172.147.231.183

eighth! how nice:)
ColdFire
Monday, August 12, 2002 02:09:31 AM
IP: 24.78.133.4

Seventh!



LEVA - You wrote: [I just got a bit of juicy fannish news. Not Gargs related, but interesting -- some of you may remember CBS' 1987 series Beauty and the Beast, the one with Linda Hamilton as Catherine and Ron Perlman as Vincent. Well, UPN is apparently developing a spinoff, centered around Vincent's son Jacob, now a teenager.]

Interesting. When the series was on, I never really caught more than an episode or two of it although I've heard a lot about how good it was from many of the series fans. I'd be willing to invest some time in seeing the spin-off.

I'm curious, where'd you get the information? I'm trying to brush up my basic knowledge of that series and I was hoping that there might be some S8 equivilent site for that series for me to take a peek at.

You wrote: [Hey, if *they* can get a new series, that gives me hope for Gargs.]

This tidbit of information does give some hope since if this series can make it back to television then certainly Gargoyles can make it back.

What really reenforced hope for Gargoyles even more is that together with this news is also news I should mention - Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles will be returning to television soon. It almost seems like the people in charge of putting toons on the air are in a late 80's-early 90's series kick. That of course would work great in favor of Gargoyles.

(I'd love to see what will happen if there is an extremely positive response on the DVD that's coming out next year - given that all these old series with existing fanbases are coming back to television, it is possible that Disney will try a new Gargoyles series or at least one or two of the spin-offs. After all its not like they've had much success with their more recent series - I've hardly come across Tarzan on the air and its basically their main movie spinoff series at this point.)



By the way I should make two announcements. First to any fans of Disney's Beauty and the Beast movie, its going to be rereleased on DVD in October. (I loved this series; its still one of my favorite Disney movies to date. And its 1997 OVA movie was pretty good too. It had some good parts to it. That will be rereleased in November.)

Second is mainly for anime fans - Starting August 31 the series Inu-Yasha will be appearing on Adult Swim. To anyone who has had the fortune to see the digisubs of this series, it is an extremely well done mystical, horror, comedy series from the creator of Ranma 1/2 and Maison Ikkuko. (I'm still a little suprised that its managed to make it to American TV - even by Adult Swim standards, its really bloody and gory; I mean rivers of blood and body parts flying everywhere. I wonder how the dub turned out? I heard that it was slightly toned down from the original Japanese. I hope that it does well; we can always use more fans for the fantasy/mystical/medieval types of shows.)
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Monday, August 12, 2002 12:26:49 AM
IP: 12.88.91.161

<ENTER LORD SLOTH>
But the next dude is 7th in case there's confusion.
I wish I didn't care so much about this, but at least it's something I can comment on wothout keeping up to date.
The Sloth-ler! Ya.
<EXIT LORD SLOTH>
Lord Sloth
Monday, August 12, 2002 12:15:04 AM
IP: 216.209.138.115

<ENTER LORD SLOTH>
blast ye Knox! 5th.
<EXIT LORD SLOTH>
Lord Sloth
Monday, August 12, 2002 12:09:19 AM
IP: 216.209.138.115

whoops, guess it's sixth
MC
Mooncat
Monday, August 12, 2002 12:09:14 AM
IP: 68.102.19.135

I claim 4th for the Fay!

Mooncat
>^,,^<
Mooncat
Monday, August 12, 2002 12:08:40 AM
IP: 68.102.19.135

<ENTER LORD SLOTH>
<sigh> 4. Don't get me wrong this must be done, but lets just get it over with.
I actually have a whole lot of reading to catch up on before I can say much of import; but hopfully I will, when I do, because I must.
<Gets a Cookie>
<EXIT LORD SLOTH>
Lord Sloth
Monday, August 12, 2002 12:08:24 AM
IP: 216.209.138.115

4Th. :)
Knoxville - [knox@ketnar.org]
Monday, August 12, 2002 12:08:21 AM
IP: 208.54.204.182

Guess me's Three-weeeeee!

Third
*Plants flag claiming the spot*
Wingless
Monday, August 12, 2002 12:04:32 AM
IP: 24.43.42.78

2
Grey Wolf
Monday, August 12, 2002 12:00:20 AM
IP: 213.164.0.4

Number 1!!!!!! new stuff on the web!!!
Demona May Stephens - [realdemona@yahoo.com]
the Insane One lives On!
Monday, August 12, 2002 12:00:07 AM
IP: 209.208.54.68