A Station Eight Fan Web Site
Comment Room Archive
Comments for the week ending December 30, 2002
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I've got some ideas of what "Fan Service" might be such as:
1) Shakespearean References
2) Stone freezing to capture a particular emotion. I have heard it said that the virtue of sculpture is that it can capture an emotion much better than a human face can because of its stillness.
3) Guys can look ugly, but girls are always smoking hot, despite their evil.
4) Gargoyles change to match the culture they are in, due to the culture taking inspiration from them in their artwork.
5) Mecha explode.
Core Themes:
1) Revenge. Revenge is a core theme of the show, with its futility and its tendency to self-perpetuate.
2) Ancient enemies. Whether due to immortality, sleeping away the centuries, or passing the vendetta from generation to generation. Fueds last centuries in the gargoyles universe.
3) Gargoyles survive, they do not thrive. Of the three races, gargoyles are the most endangered. They gain intolerably slow successes followed by sudden devestating setbacks.
4) Gargoyles protect.
I know there is more, but what suggestions do you have for other things that would fit these two categories?
Laurence
Sunday, December 29, 2002 07:36:49 PM
IP: 128.233.231.162
HAPPY BIRTHDAY, BABS!! Hope you have good clean fun :)
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Sunday, December 29, 2002 03:37:17 PM
IP: 66.169.210.231
Angela falls in love with a human? Whatever happened to Broadway?
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Sunday, December 29, 2002 07:32:17 AM
IP: 65.56.173.80
I would like to see a new Gargoyle series or Movie, since most Gargoyle characters and series delt with Scotland I've bin researching Scotish history. Specially the royal house of Stuarts, which make for interesting writing.
And for Anglea to finding find a lifemate, like her father she falls in love with a human.
Luke E. Whitehead - [vaultkeeper@dupuis.shawbiz.ca]
Victoria, BC, Canada
Sunday, December 29, 2002 02:49:09 AM
IP: 24.64.223.203
Happy Birthday to me :) Happy Birthday to me :) Haaapppyyy Biirrthday to meeeeeeeeee :)
Babs
Philly, Pa
Sunday, December 29, 2002 01:48:59 AM
IP: 68.83.228.122
human cloning> it amazes/frightens/excites me how quickly science fiction is becoming science fact... i mean, in our life times will we see dinosaurs cloned? faster than light travel? fusion power? colonies on other planets? its all coming so quick, it reminds me of what Dr Grant (Sam Neill) says in Jurassic Park, "the world is changing so quickly and we are running to keep up..."
anyway, speaking of science fiction (and to tie this to gargoyles somehow) today is the birthday of Nichelle Nichols, who voices Diane Maza (as well as plays Uhura on Star Trek) Happy Birthday!
matt
Saturday, December 28, 2002 09:46:44 PM
IP: 207.230.48.43
Actually, I should have made that a bit clearer, but it was Balder's funeral pyre, not Odin's. (Balder died first, for one thing - murdered by Loki and Hoder - and also, since Odin was eaten by the Fenris-wolf, he didn't exactly get a proper funeral - not to mention that, with Ragnarok wiping out the universe at the time, nobody had the opportunity to give him one even if Fenris hadn't already pre-empted the arrangements in his manner of dealing with Odin).
And, by the way, I'm still a little freaked that a real-life scientist with an interest in cloning should have a name so strongly evocative of "Anton Sevarius", even with the first name and surname reversed.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, December 28, 2002 06:52:46 PM
IP: 67.28.88.222
WHAT ODIN SAID TO BALDER ON HIS FUNERAL PYRE: *ahem*
Spoiler alert
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Turn me over boy, I think I'm done on that side
thank you, thank you I'll be here all night, be sure to tip your server
Shogun Raptor
Saturday, December 28, 2002 05:42:45 PM
IP: 209.86.180.253
I forgot about Dr. Severino Antoni! Well, given that this is all background for my BESM gargoyles campaign, Dr. Servarius will be Dr. Sevarino, who is working secretely on both projects. After all, Severino Antoni sounds so hammy of an italian name, that you could sort of see him doing coming up with it. Look at the difference between Dr. Sevarius in "Metamorphisis" truly showing he is not adverse to appearing as an old man for extended periods of time.
Laurence
Saturday, December 28, 2002 05:33:31 PM
IP: 128.233.231.63
What? Are you saying that a religious movement founded by a former sports journalist who claims to have met aliens atop a volcano in France and which refuses to offer any scientific proof of their claim (including producing the alleged clone baby) might have some problems with credibility? Say it isn't so! :P
I bet that Italian genetist Dr. Severino Antoni is pissed, though... he's been saying for months that he was going to produce the first cloned human baby, but the mother isn't due to give birth until January. And in science, being first is everything. After all, does anyone even remember the name of the other man who got to the patent office with his design for the telephone just a few hours behind Mr. Alexander Graham Bell?
So get set for the Clone Wars, ladies and gentlemen... it seems like the race is on now to be the first slightly kooky medical professional to offer up verifiable proof of a human clone to the scientific community.
Patrick Toman
Saturday, December 28, 2002 05:09:14 PM
IP: 67.38.254.183
Well, as you all might have heard, "Clonaid" a company funded by the Raelians have claimed that they produced a viable human clone.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2608655.stm
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/021228/6/r349.html
However, this has been greeted with skepticism by many, not only because the Raelians are a bunch of whack jobs, but there is nobody who is linked to the project. After all, usually people write papers about their research, taking it step by step until they acheive a long expected result. As well, it seems that though other geneticists have needed hundreds of eggs to produce a viable cloned animal, these people have been able to produce 5 viable human clones with 10 attempts.
However, we all know one geneticist who is an expert in cloning, and is used to working in absolute secrecy. I am talking of course, about Dr. Anton Sevarius. He is obviously involved in this project, working for the Raelian cult www.rael.org
They in turn are obviously the willing pawns of Nokkar the Sentinel's greatest enemy... the Space Spawn aliens. This looks like a job for the gargoyles.
Laurence
Saturday, December 28, 2002 04:17:00 PM
IP: 128.233.231.63
Christine- great 'fic! :-)
warrioress
Friday, December 27, 2002 10:36:53 PM
IP: 64.216.155.161
"What did Odin whisper in the ear of his son Balder on his funeral pyre?"
Now that I think about it. That doesn't really qualify as a riddle, does it? It's sort of like Bilbo's "What have I got in my pocket" Cop-out. You would think that a God who has all the wisdom in the world would be able to come up with a better riddle than that.
jimmy
Friday, December 27, 2002 05:47:12 PM
IP: 172.128.238.86
The site update is here, quick before the colossal windstorm knocks out the power!
Included in this update are a new Dissidents fic, a pic by Spacebabie, and my MageLore holiday story.
Click or go to http://www.eskimo.com/~vecna/new_stuff.html
Christine - [christine@sabledrake.com]
Friday, December 27, 2002 04:32:35 PM
IP: 65.239.13.112
"What did Odin whisper in the ear of his son Balder on his funeral pyre?"
i can so see that becoming what we ask greg when he tells us to stop asking about what Titania whispered, lol!
Applause figs> i have the Large Hudson and Demona w/black hair figures... and Patrick, looks like someone needs to dust... hehehee
later chicos...
matt
Friday, December 27, 2002 09:44:15 AM
IP: 207.230.48.1
PATRICK - I should have known that you'd give Demona her own shelf. :)
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Friday, December 27, 2002 07:04:08 AM
IP: 67.28.90.54
Hi all. I haven't been here in a while, so I thought I'd wish you all a belated, very Merry Christmas! I hope the season has blessed you and the turkey has filled you! Enjoy the New Year!
ColdFire
Edmonton/Vancouver, AB/BC, Canada
Thursday, December 26, 2002 11:42:52 PM
IP: 24.78.133.4
Applause figures... click my name for a picture. "Applause" is a brand name. They made various molded plastic "Gargoyles" figures, including the large ones in the back and the little minature figures in the front. This is a pic of my collection, sans Demona, who due to lack of space resides on the next shelf down.
Patrick Toman
Thursday, December 26, 2002 11:00:04 PM
IP: 67.38.254.183
Hi!
Merry Christmas everyone!!!
I am currently on Vancouver Island, which is a hop skip and a jump from QFI.
So how are y'all?
My plane ride from Edmonton was uneventfull. But I love flying. What a great christmas!!!
I was reading the posts, and just what are applause figures???
Christmas carols forthe gargs:
Broadway's fav would be "Chestnuts roasting on an open fire."
What would the others be???
Merry X-mas!!!
Later~
Pyro X
Queen Florence Island, Gargation, Canada
Thursday, December 26, 2002 10:19:31 PM
IP: 24.64.223.203
"What did Odin whisper in the ear of his son Balder on his funeral pyre?"
I think that deserves an "LOL" Or at least a snicker.
Jimmy
Thursday, December 26, 2002 10:17:22 PM
IP: 172.170.36.99
AIRWALKER - Well, the "Old Gods" who would know most about Merlin would be more likely Celtic ones than Norse ones, so Odin might not have that much of an idea as to where Merlin is now.
None of the traditional accounts of Arthur's wars with the Saxons mention anything about Odin taking part in the fighting, so he might not have encountered Arthur, at least, not directly. He probably viewed whatever was going on in Britain at the time as nothing that he needed to look into, anyway - although elsewhere, Odin had quite a history of getting involved in events (usually deciding who would win a battle - he made himself rather unpopular among the Norsemen, actually, according to the traditional legends, since he would often have the braver warriors lose the battle and be slain. His reason was that he needed the best fighters possible in his hall at Valhalla to fight alongside him against the frost giants and the Fenris-wolf at Ragnarok, and so he had to have the heroes be the ones slain in battle so that they would be eligible for Valhalla upon their deaths.)
It's a bit ironic, actually, that Odin should mention in "Eye of the Storm" about being out of practice in dealing with mortals, when he was just about the only one of the Norse gods who did much dealing with them in the original myths (the rest of the gods were too busy fighting frost giants, interacting with each other, or encountering other mythical species, such as dwarves, to do much involvement with humans).
Of course, one amusing side-note about Odin's dealings with humans: in Norse myth, he often liked to engage in riddle-contests with them, which he always won by asking his opponent "What did Odin whisper in the ear of his son Balder on his funeral pyre?", which, naturally, only he knew the answer to. (Which *may* sound more than a little familiar to "Gargoyles" fans.... :) ).
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, December 26, 2002 06:39:52 PM
IP: 65.57.61.159
Its probable that Odin would probably be let off Avalon occasionally. I think that in general Oberon would let some of his subjects go off island just to let them burn off some steam; it sort of felt sort of like a bit of a pressure cooker in THE GATHERING 1. Without some break or release odds are good that the Tricksters more than anyone else on the Island would start trouble and force things to get out of hand.
Sounds like a sitcom to me.
Jimmy
Thursday, December 26, 2002 03:37:39 PM
IP: 172.149.112.144
TODD - You wrote: [I agree that Arthur would probably encounter many of the Avalon Tour characters, but I doubt that Erik and Gunther would be among them; they struck me as likely to remain "ordinary folks" and not get "mythical destinies" placed upon them like Max Loew or Fara Maku and Tea.]
I wasn't thinking of Eric and Gunther getting or having any real mystical destiny in play here. I was thinking of them being more in the the place of the everyman. After all Elisa doesn't have any mystical destiny either and that hasn't stopped her from having adventure, myth, and legend thrust on her.
I figured that odds would be good on Arthur running into European characters such as Max Loew as well as Eric and Gunther. Also odds are good for Eric and Gunther to have some run in with him as they have some knowledge of Gargoyles so they wouldn't be frightened by Griff AND they happen to live in a relatively isolated area; the type of area that you'd probably search if you were looking for a recluse wizard. (Wasn't Merlin associated with the Old Gods once Arthur and his court went over to Christianity? So wouldn't it make sense to search out some of the Old Gods who might know where he is?)
You wrote: [Of course, their adventure in "Eye of the Storm", in connection to "Pendragon", does make me wonder sometimes how Arthur would respond to Odin. After all, Odin was linked to his old enemies the Saxons, and so Arthur might have some feelings of uncomfortableness about Odin for that reason.]
It would depend alot on if Arthur had only had contact with Odin Worshippers or with Odin directly. If hadn't met Odin in the past but only fought with his worshippers then it could be that while he might not have a high opinion of Odin that he wouldn't have a negative one. If on the other hand he had contact with Odin directly in association with the worshippers that he fought then it would be a completely different story.
Its also possible that he would relate complete differently to Odin then I have suggested above; its possible that with or without prior contact he might view Odin seperately from the image that has been built up of him as a God of his enemies. It would also depend on who he would be with at the time - if Merlin is with him then Arthur might take a mellow attitude to Odin but if he's with someone more aggressive and confrontational as well as suspicious of Fey then he may react in a completely different manner to Odin.
You wrote: [He doesn't strike me as that likely to hold a grudge, certainly; when he got involved with Goliath, it was because Goliath had something in his possession NOW that Odin wanted and needed back, not over Goliath battling Viking raiders - who were most likely Odin-raiders;]
True; actually his behavior in EYE OF THE STORM is more an example of bad communication than anything else. If he had been a little less mysterious and aggressive and a little more willing to use some of that wisdom he supposedly got from losing his eye then the events of the episode might have been avoided.
After all Goliath reacted to him completely differently than he reacted to any other Fey in the series (which I thought was an interesting twist) - he reacted to Odin as a true God even giving the impression when he found out his identity that he was afraid while on the other hand he didn't even flinch dealing with Oberon. An interesting reminder that he is a early medieval individual who would still relate to Odin but never have heard much of Oberon.
You wrote: [I certainly doubt that Hakon and his followers were Christians - a thousand years before.]
They probably weren't although I find it hard to think that Hakon would really believe in anything. The bulk of his men though were probably Pagans and worshipping some sort of Norse Pantheon. I do wonder though if Gunther and Eric have some sort of connection to not only the Vikings but also to that band that attacked Wyvern. Hakon's people had to start out somewhere in Scandanavia and there probably were suvivors from Goliaths assault on their camp in AWAKENINGS 2.
You wrote: [Of course, thanks to the Gathering, Arthur and Odin probably wouldn't even cross paths, but if the other tricksters can leave Avalon on some special errand, then maybe Odin can as well.]
Its probable that Odin would probably be let off Avalon occasionally. I think that in general Oberon would let some of his subjects go off island just to let them burn off some steam; it sort of felt sort of like a bit of a pressure cooker in THE GATHERING 1. Without some break or release odds are good that the Tricksters more than anyone else on the Island would start trouble and force things to get out of hand. Odin has a quick temper from both occasions that we have seen him - letting him out once in a while might be a good idea to keep some weaker Fey from getting hurt.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Thursday, December 26, 2002 01:51:17 PM
IP: 12.88.162.181
AIRWALKER - I agree that Arthur would probably encounter many of the Avalon Tour characters, but I doubt that Erik and Gunther would be among them; they struck me as likely to remain "ordinary folks" and not get "mythical destinies" placed upon them like Max Loew or Fara Maku and Tea.
Of course, their adventure in "Eye of the Storm", in connection to "Pendragon", does make me wonder sometimes how Arthur would respond to Odin. After all, Odin was linked to his old enemies the Saxons (he was worshipped by them during Arthur's reign, since they hadn't been converted to Christianity yet, and some of the Saxon kings and chieftains even claimed descent from him), and so Arthur might have some feelings of uncomfortableness about Odin for that reason. (I doubt that Odin would be quite so likely to be inclined towards hostility towards Arthur, of course - for one thing, he wasn't directly involved in the Saxon wars, so far as we know, and for another, they were 1500 years ago and he'd probably long since gotten over them even if he had gotten involved at all. He doesn't strike me as that likely to hold a grudge, certainly; when he got involved with Goliath, it was because Goliath had something in his possession NOW that Odin wanted and needed back, not over Goliath battling Viking raiders - who were most likely Odin-raiders; I certainly doubt that Hakon and his followers were Christians - a thousand years before).
Of course, thanks to the Gathering, Arthur and Odin probably wouldn't even cross paths, but if the other tricksters can leave Avalon on some special errand (cf. the multiple trickster story that wound up being turned into "Ransom"), then maybe Odin can as well.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, December 25, 2002 07:07:11 PM
IP: 63.208.46.31
Merry Christmas to all!
Jim R.
Wednesday, December 25, 2002 06:29:38 PM
IP: 208.17.70.238
TODD - You wrote: [Hi, Airwalker!]
Hi! I was meaning to post my last post much earlier than I did but I've been spending a good chunk of my time recently jobhunting; so far its been largely unsuccessful. PC Tech/Help Desk work in the NYC area is almost impossible to find. I hope that I'll have better luck after the New Year.
You wrote: [We do know from Greg Weisman that Arthur would have spent part of his quest for Merlin in Britain; it would certainly be the ideal place to start looking since nearly all of the candidates for Merlin's "resting-place" are in Britain (except for the forest of Broceliande, which is or was in Brittany, in France).]
I don't have a doubt that Arthur is going to spend some time in the Great Britain area. But I really got the feeling that he would be largely outside of Britain; while the first best leads for Merlin would be in Arthur's old homeland, who says that Merlin has to cling to the last spot that Arthur saw him at? If Excalibur could leave Britain then why not Merlin too?
(We know that Merlin is in his Crystal Cave but Arthur isn't going to know that right away; he's basically heading off blind on what might be a wild goose chase. I wouldn't be suprised if he hits on some clues that take him on a long term world tour before he hits on something that will lead him back to England. I just felt that since its a given that Arthur would be associated with Britain that it would be a good twist to put him even more outside his element in areas of the world that he wouldn't be associated with. Thats why I figured that he'd spend a good amount of time outside Britain. It could give him some good opportunities to visit characters the main series introduced but wouldn't be able to develop on like Max Loew and the Golem in Prague, Eric and Gunther in Norway, Teai and Fara Maku in Nigeria, etc before they finally manage to hit on the BAD GUYS somewhere along the line. And didn't Greg say that they (The Bad Guys team) would be based in Paris?)
You wrote: [Actually, Arthur would still be likely to be clashing with the Illuminati after he finds Merlin, for the simple reason that, according to Greg, he'd be questing after the Holy Grail next. And since Duval is the guardian of the Grail, Arthur going on a Grail quest would automatically get the Illuminati involved.]
Actually I wonder about that. A Grail Quest would get DUVAL involved but that doesn't mean that Arthur would be in conflict with the ILLUMINATI. Duval is the Grail Guardian so in the end the responsibility is going to fall to him personally. And while Duval would have the resources of the Illuminati Society backing him up it doesn't mean that it would be anything more than just Duval and his close associates involved in conflict with Arthur.
Duval might not even have let the larger Society in on the fact that he is the Grail Guardian and might have kept some sort of distance from the Society on that issue. If the Grail does punish him for his involvement with them then wouldn't it do even worse if he actually actively used them to protect it?
It could be that Arthur's main clash with the Illuminati is only going to be with its true, ultimate leadership in the form of Duval and largely is going to be kept distant from the rest of the Society by both Merlin AND Duval. I figured the rest of the Society would fall to BAD GUYS to deal with largely.
You wrote: [I've sometimes wondered what the Director's reasons are for proceeding against the Illuminati. Does he see the Society as a threat to the world, or as merely rivals that he wants weakened so that they can't interfere with his goals as much?]
Could be both; Who's to say that the Director might not see those two choices you listed as just two parts of one option? I somehow picture the Director as being more like Classic Xanatos but with a just a little bit more moral ethic to him than Xanatos had in the beginning of the series. Much less mellow than THE JOURNEY Xanatos but a little more than AWAKENINGS Xanatos.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Wednesday, December 25, 2002 06:10:10 PM
IP: 12.88.162.113
Feliz Navidad!!!!
just for some variety...
and i needed to look at Ophelia.... hehee
matt
Wednesday, December 25, 2002 11:37:18 AM
IP: 216.178.8.42
Merry Christmas!
Patrick Toman
Wednesday, December 25, 2002 10:36:18 AM
IP: 67.38.254.183
Merrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry Christmas! All you Godless Atheists can stuff it!
just kidding! :P lol (seriously, I am :D).
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Wednesday, December 25, 2002 10:00:37 AM
IP: 64.217.126.221
Merry Christmas, everyone!
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, December 25, 2002 07:44:56 AM
IP: 63.208.44.53
MERRY CHRISTMAS !!!!, everyone have a safe and fun NEW YEARS !!
Babs
Philly, Pa
Wednesday, December 25, 2002 03:11:49 AM
IP: 68.83.228.122
MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!
I'm going to go open presents now :D
MC
>^,,^<
MC
Wednesday, December 25, 2002 02:03:28 AM
IP: 68.102.23.36
Happy Holidays
Anonymous
Tuesday, December 24, 2002 10:58:41 PM
IP: 64.91.102.217
Hi, Airwalker!
We do know from Greg Weisman that Arthur would have spent part of his quest for Merlin in Britain; it would certainly be the ideal place to start looking since nearly all of the candidates for Merlin's "resting-place" are in Britain (except for the forest of Broceliande, which is or was in Brittany, in France). Greg mentioned that Arthur would be visiting Tintagel and Stonehenge, at least, in his search. (Both would be appropriate places; there's a "Merlin's Cave" near Tintagel - and in Malory, Merlin's resting-place was a cave in Cornwall - and a lot of legends about Merlin claim that he built Stonehenge or had something to do with it). Though we know that Arthur would eventually be looking outside of Britain, such as at Antarctica. (That location always gave me the creativity demon of Griff saying "No, Arthur, I don't think that these penguins will be able to tell us where Merlin is." :) ).
Re the "greatest warrior" bit - well, Elisa does call him that in "Avalon Part Three" - although most versions of the legend would argue that Lancelot would outrank Arthur in fighting ability.
Actually, Arthur would still be likely to be clashing with the Illuminati after he finds Merlin, for the simple reason that, according to Greg, he'd be questing after the Holy Grail next. And since Duval is the guardian of the Grail, Arthur going on a Grail quest would automatically get the Illuminati involved. Of course, I doubt that Duval has too much credibility left where the Grail's concerned after a lot of the things that the Illuminati've been doing in the last few centuries (accepting money from the organized crime syndicates, setting up the Hotel Cabal, and funding the Quarrymen would definitely have outraged the Grail no end).
Re the Bad Guys: I've sometimes wondered what the Director's reasons are for proceeding against the Illuminati. Does he see the Society as a threat to the world, or as merely rivals that he wants weakened so that they can't interfere with his goals as much? (From what I know of him, I certainly doubt that he's all that much of a moral crusader, actually; his strategy of battling the Illuminati by recruiting a band of semi-reformed "villains" and telling them that they're going on missions for him if they know what's good for them definitely suggests a strongly machiavellian outlook).
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, December 24, 2002 07:37:57 PM
IP: 65.56.173.187
Merry Christmas!
TODD - You wrote: [Although that does raise the question as to why the last humans, if they've got access to time travel (as apparently they do), don't just go back in time to warn the people who built that super-computer so that they never build it in the first place.]
Its my understanding that its Skynet that develops the Time Machine with the idea of killing either Sara Conner (the plot of the original film) or if not her then her son when he's young (the plot of T2) because he's the leader of the Human Resistance and Skynet is losing to them. The resistance only manages to send back the help using Skynet's Time Machine.
As for warning people in the past in the first movie the operative they send back tries that and pretty much gets committed as a lunatic. They managed to convice the main scientist behind Skynet's creation in T2 but only because they had an actual Terminator to prove they weren't crazy or lying.
You wrote: [1. driving all the Saxons out of Britain and returning the rule of the island to the British Celts (i.e., the Cornish and the Welsh) - which nowadays wouldn't be too practical]
Like you said, not very practical at all. :-) Suprisingly for a series who's main character is King Arthur, it was my understanding that the series would take place largely outside of Britain or anything connected with the English and that most of his travels and impact would be outside of the islands. Sort of as if he has outgrown them. (Or alternately is having to kill time until whatever he was needed for on the Island catches up with him.)
You wrote: [2. re-establishing the Golden Age of Chivalry (which is rather vague).]
Its not only vague, I'm not even really sure that its possible or that it would even be desirable - after all look how things worked out the last time he had the nerve to talk about an Age of Chivalry. (Not to mention that something as vague as an Age of Chivalry sounds very Messianic and I just can't picture the reawakened Arthur we saw as a Messiah figure or even wanting to be one.)
You wrote: [Of course, for all that we know, maybe the Archmage was the big menace that Arthur was supposed to be awakened for.]
Given how all the Magical beings in PENDRAGON (The Stone and the Lady of the Lake) react to seeing him, that doesn't seem likely. (Even given his reaction in AVALON 3 it doesn't seem likely that the Archmage was the threat that Arthur was being held in reserve for.)
You wrote: [He was threatening the entire world, and it was when Arthur was awakened and took command that the tide turned at last]
Well technically I don't think that the Archmage got a chance to threaten the entire world. He planned to but that is different from actually doing anything. He was mainly threatening the Avalonian Clan.
(And even then the odds were stacked in his favor - they were pretty low tech; I don't think that he would have had such an easy time in the real world. Besides I don't think that the Sisters would have ever let him get that far - if he had gotten into the real world then he would have gotten Oberon's attention which would have gotten them into trouble. Thats why I've always viewed the Archmage as a much more localized Gargoyle threat - he's too arrogent to get down to real business. He needs to read those villain rules posted in the other comment room. :-) )
You wrote: [it was after Arthur joined them that they finally defeated him and his followers]
Barely defeated. And even then he was more of a moral booster than anything else. He mainly stayed with the Castle defenders while only Goliath, Angela, and the Magus went out alone to fight the Archmage and Weird Sisters - the more powerful opponents.
And even at the Castle he only mainly dealt with Macbeth; Demona, who I consider to be much more dangerous of the two, was left to the rest of the defenders (and took at least five Warriors and two Beasts to defeat her; even then it wasn't a sure thing and was only because he gave an advantage to her enemy by throwing down her weapon).
You wrote: [Arthur's left having outlived the reason for his return, which isn't that good an idea.]
Not necessarily. Focusing on that aimlessness as well as eventually trying to find something new to do can make an interesting story. (That is sort of the last plot arc of the comic CABLE/SOLDIER X before it got cancelled.)
You wrote: [Presumably, New Camelot offered proof enough that it would not abuse its host function.]
Or enough Nations have their hands in it that they aren't worried about it. (Worldwide Computer System still only deals with Developed Nations; I don't know if the loss of the Master Matrix would cripple the Earth as much as we might think it will - it would hurt Developed Nations but they have to have local backups of some sort to keep a certain level of Technology going. It seems more the loss of Leadership that hurts the Planet than the loss of its Internet Network. Military Defense can't all be in the hands of one Computer.)
You wrote: [Which means also, alas, that Matt's own quest to defeat the Illuminati never gets fulfilled.]
To be realistic Matt's goal isn't exactly achievable to begin with. I think that if we had seen more of that plot that we might have seen some development and shift in Matt's ideas of how to deal with the Illuminati.
(I always wondered - Did he tell Elisa that he was brought into the Illuminati or have they reversed roles with him now keeping the big secret from her?)
You wrote: [But maybe he and Arthur (and some of the other "good guys" such as Goliath and his clan) will manage to inflict enough defeats on the Illuminati to force them to focus for the next century or so mostly on rebuilding their strength, rather than carrying out any more nefarious schemes.]
I wonder if the Illuminati of 2198 is anywhere near what it is 200 years before? The Society under Duval doesn't seem to be one that would collaborate with Alien World Conquerors; it could be that Arthur and the group he'll gather to him will have some effect of the Leadership of the Society (weakening or eliminating it) while the BAD GUYS will have some effect on the overall functioning structure of the society that forces them to do what they do in 2198.
BUD-CLARE - You wrote: [Well, since the computer that runs the entire planet will be based in New Camelot, it seems likely that Arthur played a key role in the unification of earth.]
I can't really picture the planet being unified in 200 years; given how things are it just doesn't seem realistic at all. I can see the Global Village we live in grow closer in certain aspects like Economics and I can see Confederations and Alliences developing but I don't see Nationalism drying up anytime soon in favor of Universalism.
Its always made me wonder more specifically about New Camelot and the nature of the Master Matrix Computer that would be based there. Is New Camelot really a Human/Gargoyle city in Antarctica or just the site of a Gargoyle Clan that is more of a neutral international/UN area outpost? It can't really be a seperate nation because then a lot of nations would be highly sceptical about plugging into the Master Matrix. And how did the Master Matrix come to be running affairs on a worldwide scale? Is it really a Worldwide system or would it be more limited to developed nations?
(I just think that I'm a little too cynical to accept a completely unified Planet Earth outside of a Messianic Age or Science Fiction. Too much happens on this planet and its not going to get cleaned up and sorted out anytime soon. Just the Arab-Israeli situation is going to take another couple hundred years to sort itself out. And thats only one of the hundreds of conflicts going on worldwide.)
As for Arthur, I could see his role in establishing New Camelot as a neutral area and perhaps setting the stage for the Master Matrix being set up there as a major purpose. But I don't see King Arthur as King Arthur rallying the world into unification. Too many people would laugh in his face when he introduces himself as "Arthur, King of Britain". I know I would. :-) I always got the impression that whatever Arthur was going to be coming back for it would be big, messy and he wouldn't end well when it was over. Slowly unifying the world peacefully doesn't seem to fit that. Whatever he does I always figured he'd go out in a flash of glory, since he is sort of living on borrowed time anyway.
You wrote: [He is one hell of a symbol, and by the time he'd be reawakened, damn near everyone on earth would have heard of him (assuming current trends continue, which is certainly reasonable)]
Even if trends continue the way they are I think we shouldn't overestimate the name recognition of King Arthur outside of Europe and America. He might not be as much of a World Rallying Symbol as we might think.
He could be a good rallying point for the Developed World if he could get people to stop looking at him like he's a lunatic after he introduces himself. Just getting people to accept he's King Arthur is going to be a Mission Impossible of its own - after all just explaining how he managed to live to Modern Times could land him in a Mental Ward and thats even with a Gargoyle standing next to him.
You wrote: [The irony of it is appealing: the greatest warrior in history responsible for world peace.]
Its debatable if he's the Greatest Warrior in History - he is a capable warrior and he is a born leader but if he were the best of the best his Kingdom wouldn't have ended the way it did.
(And I am curious as to how long Arthur would last in combat with a focused Macbeth or a not completely annoyed Demona. His first battle with Macbeth has Arthur win but Macbeth is under a spell so he is at a deep disadvantage. The second battle they have ends in a draw although before Arthur gave up he was losing. And it took a whole Clan to subdue Demona in AVALON 3.)
THOMAS - You wrote: [Could King Arthur have been awakened to deal with the Illuminati? I'd think that the founding of the new Camelot would be a way to deal with the world order created by Mr. Duval and his twisted vision of Camelot.]
That could be a possibility; it makes for an interesting dynamic although I always got the feeling that King Arthur might move onto other than the Illuminati once he finds Merlin. That doesn't mean he wouldn't have his encounters with them and some adventures dealing with them - they is always going to be that Camelot Connection with him. But I thought that the main Illuminati threat would come from BAD GUYS. They after all wouldn't have the emotional luggage or moral codes to hold them back in a battle with the Illuminati Society.
Besides I don't know if Merlin would want Arthur to go up against the Illuminati Society - he'd be much more pragmatic than Arthur and might steer him away from open confrontation with them since the Illuminati might even be serving some purpose for him. (Its not out of the realm of possibility that Merlin in his magic cave and Duval in his magic Mansion would maintain some sort of communication.)
JIMMY - You wrote: [Mabye Arthur came back to lead a fight against Queen Mab when she returns.]
That is an interesting idea; a fight against Queen Mab could be epic enough to fit what King Arthur was being held in reserve for but still secret from the outside world. The real question is when is Mab supposed to break out? How early has Arthur been awakened? Too early to make him now a total loss or is he still salvagable? Was he even that necessary to the fight he was waiting for given that the Stone and Lady of the Lake don't seem that put out that he was woken up early? And is his being awake what might set into motion the actual threat that he has to fight technically making it impossible for him to wake up early?
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Tuesday, December 24, 2002 06:56:01 PM
IP: 12.88.162.103
Good point; I hadn't even thought of Queen Mab as a possibility, but she'd indeed be better suited for a legendary hero to deal with than the Space-Spawn would.
Happy Christmas Eve, everybody! It's this time of year when I still sometimes wonder just what that Santa Claus story that Greg Weisman was planning for "Gargoyles" would have been like. (It'd certainly have been interesting to see, if for no other reason than how Greg would have made old St. Nick fit into a serious drama-adventure series, as opposed to the more usual comedy-adventure series that you'd expect to find him in).
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, December 24, 2002 06:44:12 PM
IP: 65.56.173.187
Todd> i don't think Matt Bluestone was trying to defeat the Illuminati as much as he was just trying to prove its existence and expose it...
Jimmy> i agree with you. i think Queen Mab is the threat that Arthur (and the other World Tour heroes) have returned to deal with. Greg has made it no secret that the battle with Queen Mab will be no less than epic, which perfectly suits Arthur. i believe Greg once said that the Avalon Clan may not even survive Queen Mab's return, but since they're around in 2198, i'm not too worried...
its snowing like crazy here, looks like the St Louis bunch (mainly Todd and I) will be having a White Christmas! hope you all have a wonderful holiday, whatever you celebrate!
matt
Tuesday, December 24, 2002 05:18:07 PM
IP: 207.230.48.26
Mabye Arthur came back to lead a fight against Queen Mab when she returns. He seems suited for that.
Jimmy
Tuesday, December 24, 2002 05:12:56 PM
IP: 172.133.175.142
Well, if Arthur's goal was to defeat the Illuminati, it looks, sad to say, as if he's going to fail, since they'll still be around in 2198 to become quislings after the Space-Spawn take over the planet. Which means also, alas, that Matt's own quest to defeat the Illuminati never gets fulfilled. But maybe he and Arthur (and some of the other "good guys" such as Goliath and his clan) will manage to inflict enough defeats on the Illuminati to force them to focus for the next century or so mostly on rebuilding their strength, rather than carrying out any more nefarious schemes.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, December 23, 2002 08:37:57 PM
IP: 63.208.46.64
Could King Arthur have been awakened to deal with the Illuminati? I'd think that the founding of the new Camelot would be a way to deal with the world order created by Mr. Duval and his twisted vision of Camelot.
Thomas Peterson
Monday, December 23, 2002 08:04:33 PM
IP: 204.235.237.65
*snarls at Revel*
Sincerely, Allaine
Allaine
Monday, December 23, 2002 11:54:34 AM
IP: 152.163.189.68
HAHA! I take the last because I can 10TH!
Going to work now
Revel
Monday, December 23, 2002 11:20:02 AM
IP: 205.188.208.136
9th!
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Monday, December 23, 2002 09:16:14 AM
IP: 12.88.172.65
8TH!!!!!!
matt
Monday, December 23, 2002 07:51:35 AM
IP: 207.230.48.55
Seventh?
Todd> "Presumably, New Camelot offered proof enough that it would not abuse its host function."
Chivalry must not be dead, after all. ;)
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Monday, December 23, 2002 04:27:58 AM
IP: 24.169.113.216
6th in the name of the Fay!
also, GNL episode 2 : "Transitions" is now posted on the Gargoyles New Legends website. You are cordially invited to come visit.
We hope you will read and review.
Thanks
Mooncat
GNL Admin
GARGOYLES NEW LEGENDS
Monday, December 23, 2002 04:02:18 AM
IP: 68.102.23.36
Talking about toys? Hmm, since I have the vast majority of items that were put out, it's hard to think of what I'd have liked to have found.
Let's see, I wish I had the entire set of foil stamped cards (F1-F??). Anyone who has these and would be willing to part with some, I would be very interested. Email me since I might not check this room again for a while.
Also never got the full set of Franco American tattoos.
Never did pick up the bean bag chair.
Wish I could have found the UK version of the Demona large Applause figurine where she has red hair.
My favorite items:
Bronx alarm clock
Bronx action figures - yes, even the fuschia Bronx
The foil stamped cards I do have
Gotta love the shave set with the "Winged Warrior Cologne" and the bitchin' Brooklyn shaver
Figure pens
Wallet cards
Playing cards
The 3 foot tall video game standee advertisement
The beach towel with Goliath hanging off the side of the building
I just saw an ad for Chia Looney Tunes (Tweety, Taz, and Elmer Fudd). I want a Chia Bronx!! Bronx with a green afro!
Pyro X> That's the reason I no longer work at TRU: Most of the managers and directors are idiots. Let's see, it's not in the system? I can think of about 13,000 other items which ARE in the system. Worried about correct inventory count? Hmm, when was the last time there was an accurate count of the overpriced pencils? If there was a "mountain" of toys that weren't reshopped locked in a back room, I'm pretty sure they do physical inventory at least once a year. It should have been caught. Why would the reshop be locked in a back room anyway? Why would a room be locked and never opened for years? Sounds like someone forgot about their great hiding place (which is how I was able to get a few Princess Leia figures and a treasure hunt Hot Wheel before the annoying dealers got them and turned around and ripped off their customers (hey, can I look through the 15 cases of Hot Wheels that just came in on the truck?)).
Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury - [qrimson_fury@yahoo.com]
Monday, December 23, 2002 01:36:25 AM
IP: 65.58.28.216
4th, What the hey, I'm up, but not for long.
Night:)
Enigma
Monday, December 23, 2002 01:02:19 AM
IP: 24.118.156.5
3rd!
Babs
Monday, December 23, 2002 12:07:16 AM
IP: 68.83.228.122
Two??
So how are yall?
Merry X-mas Everyone!!!
Later~
Pyro X
CanadaMonday, December 23, 2002 12:02:03 AM
IP: 205.206.79.107
Top Ten!!!!!!
Spacebabie
Monday, December 23, 2002 12:01:02 AM
IP: 170.224.224.134