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Gargoyles

The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending November 10, 2003

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I'm going on a low-original idea diet in areas Weisman flips through now and anon.

I'll say this, though: A state's embassies are considered part of its territory, not of the host state. The Russian embassy in the U.S., for instance, is not considered U.S. land.

;-).

JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Sunday, November 9, 2003 11:31:10 PM
IP: 65.244.173.184

JJ Greg: Yes I have taken government.
But my thinking was that sometime between now and 2198 the US would be defined as a human nation.
But that leads to conflicts of its own.....
So going out on a limb, you can't have a state without so territory (well actually you can), so perhaps the rookery is Garg land. A reservation?

And I think would be funny if the Avalon clan just went around pretending they were part of another clan (that technically exists) while in the 'real world'.

Or maybe they're just a reclusive mystery clan no one ever sees or hears about. That uses another name.

CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Sunday, November 9, 2003 09:47:27 PM
IP: 132.170.41.161

Matrix> It was OK. They left many questiones unanswered: how will the people know they live in the matrix? are they supposed to live in the ruined Zion when they decided to be let free? Machines obviously aren't good at planning.

impfac> I don't answer cuz I'm too poor to have internet. I'm working on saving up for a drum set and for making promo album to send to some labels :) So I need all the money I can get.
gabriel
Sunday, November 9, 2003 11:39:27 AM
IP: 129.120.84.42

<The action was, to me, dull. The Final battles were simply tedious. >

Dude that final battle between the humans and the squids and Neo and Smith was well worth the pointless and tedious plot and was the only redeeming thing about the whole movie.

Question
Sunday, November 9, 2003 03:04:21 AM
IP: 216.170.210.200

*peeks in*
As promised, here's my chatlog. Click my link, or go to
http://dreams.wox.org/~guandalug/Station8ChatLog.html
to read about the chat with Greg last night.

I can give no guarantee for completeness, but I do hope that fetching the chartoom every 30 seconds and fusing all the files gives a fairly complete log. Unedited, only fused!

*disappears to post the same text in the TGS CR*

Guandalug la'Fay - [Guandalug@gmx.de]
Saturday, November 8, 2003 04:47:20 PM
IP: 145.254.104.214

Hello JJ. Good to meet you.

I thought greg once directly said that by the spin off set in the future, gargoyles WERE full citizens. I must be mistaken.

**Matrix spoilers below!**

Matrix Revolutions: I absolutely hated it. At first. But the more I think about it, the more I like it.

The action was, to me, dull. The Final battles were simply tedious. The action in the second was spectacular and made the film infinitely re-watchable. I loved it. This time it failed. That was deeply disappointing to me as I NEVER thought that could happen.

But on to the plot... It was clear that the matrix had to end one of two ways: All the machines die, or all the humans die, or even possibly both. So, I think, the watchowskys decided to do another "**** you" ending (as I like to call unexpected and bold endings) and dodge your expectations. They purposefully left it unsatisfying.

Coma-man: Also, the death of the oracle was not pointless: she was key to stopping smith somehow, although that is not yet clear to me. It was her decision, and it had purpose. And it was such a cool plot point. You could see by the end of the movie that smith was gaining her powers and it was causing him to unravel.

But there is something more: I'm beginning to believe based on what the oracle and the architect said that the last stage of the war-from Morpheus on forward-was the oracle trying to stop the war personally. That is why her role was so large in the final movie-this was her doing. She talks about her decisions and the consequences and the architect talks about the risk she took-very interesting. I have to see it again.

*****end of matrix spoilers****

The plot and ending were at first a failure to me, but as I talked it out with people my mind changed. The action, however, was boring. But I'm still going to see it again because, as with Reloaded, I think I'm missing something. I'm waiting for the download to go up on Bittorrent (I'm amazed it isn't out already!).

At least the T3 DVD is out. What a great movie that was :D

This rooms needs a tag line space.

tag line in 3... 2.... 1....

"Why!? Why get up? Why keep on fighting when you know you will loose? Why? WHY?!"

"Because... I choose to."


Impfac
Denial
Saturday, November 8, 2003 02:10:04 PM
IP: 24.195.195.103

Citizenship>> CKayote, I hear ya. I remember discussion in the Ask Greg archive about a gargoylian pseudo-state.

However, as I said before, if gargoyles are recognized as possible citizens by the U.S. government, then a gargoyle "born" on U.S. territory should be a U.S. citizen. CKayote, have you taken American Nation Govenment? You learn about this concept, jus soli ("law of the soil" ), there.

(Actually, you learn it WRT humans. ;-) ).

Thus, what I think Greg really said is that he doesn't want to tell us yet whether the U.S. government has recognized gargoyles as citizens.

Click on my name or go to
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=jus+soli
for a definition of jus soli.

Knowledge of magic>> CKayote, he talked about this in the archives. However, this does present a problem, as the Avalon clan is one of the 12 known clans IIRC. I guess Greg has a work-around in mind.
JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Saturday, November 8, 2003 01:29:51 PM
IP: 65.244.173.184

Uh oh, I just noticed a gap in my log between 07:14:56 PM and 07:17:33 PM.

Does anybody else have the "missing 3 minutes"? :)

(that's why it's "unofficial")


Leo
Saturday, November 8, 2003 10:42:25 AM
IP: 68.96.8.12

I know some people here haven't seen Matrix 3 yet, so let's not post specific details and spoil it for them.....

the first 30 minutes was true Matrix goodness, though they could have explained a little more.

the ending was awlful!

and the rest (middle parts) was still worth my money.....

All said and done, I encourage everyone to go see 'Revoultions', it was still a fun film.

CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Saturday, November 8, 2003 10:01:52 AM
IP: 132.170.36.145

Argh... I missed the chat... can somebody mail it to me? My email adress is down there...

Matrix Revolutions: Well, I don#t want to sound that bad but... I was surprised the film was SO bad!

The first 30 minutes were fantastic! Untill Neo got that towell around his head...

Verry pathetic film, verry cheesy dialogues, verry hyper-war-scenes, reminded me of Starship troopers (in the bad way).

The ending was somehow both ripped off "Matrix 1" and was unsatisfying... Really wondered why they killed one of the cooles characters midthrough the film without a good reason... just because!

The ending leaves room for more sequels... argh...

Many people walked out during the film. And I understood them... After Reloaded was a disapointment, I thought Revolutions wouldn't turn out great, but that it was THAt bad...

The Coma-man - [jowohl@hotmail.com]
Berlin, Germany
Saturday, November 8, 2003 09:11:46 AM
IP: 217.87.9.184

DPH: Re: "Did anybody save a copy of the chat log with Greg Weisman?"

I just posted my "unofficial" copy (complete with broken graphics links), while Guandalug works on cleaning up the "official" one.

Leo - [<-"unofficial" rough copy of chat]
Saturday, November 8, 2003 01:33:03 AM
IP: 68.96.8.12

Did anybody save a copy of the chat log with Greg Weisman?
DPH
AR, USA
Saturday, November 8, 2003 01:01:11 AM
IP: 204.94.193.48

JJ Greg:I think he meant that they are primarily citizens of the 22nd century gargoyle psuedo-state(s).
I think it would be something comparable to some Jewish Americans having Israeli citizenship as well, but inverted sort of.

That said, I was surprised when Greg said that magic and the third race WEREN'T common knowledge in 2198.
Now I wonder if Avalon (the physical island) is 'common knowledge', and if not, does the Avalon clan 'exist'?

CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Saturday, November 8, 2003 12:44:12 AM
IP: 132.170.36.145

Greetingsl, Impfac. :bows: I am one of the new peanuts here. Pleased to make your acquaintance!

---
I am still thinking about the Weisman chat earlier tonight. I asked whether any gargs became U.S. citizens before 2198. To this, Greg responded that *perhaps* some gargs had dual citizenship.

This makes me wonder about the Manhattan clan. Is he implying that the gargs born and hatched in the U.S. may not be citizens by default, but that they could become citizens? This just seems rather strange to me.

Think about it. Greg seems to imply that gargoyles could be U.S. citizens by 2198. Then, shouldn't Samson and the rest of the Manhattan clan be considered natural citizens as much as anyone else "born" and raised in the U.S.?

Or did Greg just give me a creative non-answer?

JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Friday, November 7, 2003 11:25:01 PM
IP: 65.244.173.184

Gabe> Nothing much. I'm permanently institutionalized now, among other things, even though I'm much better. I actually have control of my behavior now, which is nice :) Also I'm not driving, which is good really, and the Buick is long gone, which is also good, in a sad way. I've IMed you but you never reply....

Matrix is finally done. Have to admit, I was disappointed by the ending, but I'm still a drooling fanboy. The more I process it, the more I like it. They didn't give it an easy ending.

I'm just wondering what news of the gargs dvd there is. I've seen nothing, not that I'd buy it anyway. I've also been vaguely curious about the peanut gallery...

Impfac
Denial
Friday, November 7, 2003 11:01:59 PM
IP: 24.195.195.103

Abby.. I agree on the thinker pose simmilarity. And when you think about it, this is the only pose we see Goliath in where he isn't in a typically agressive sort of pose. I will definately try and ask them. I actually wonder if they have been asked any such thing before...would be interesting what they will have to say.

Jenna... I am not sure I have seen the act you speak of, but it sounds good and hope you have fun. :)
Sahyinepu
Houston, Tx
Friday, November 7, 2003 06:00:31 PM
IP: 64.221.8.215

New on my site is "The Guardians: The Nature of Evil," in which the hatchlings go on a camp-out. Also, a picture of Icarus for the Gallery! Click or go to http://www.eskimo.com/~vecna/new_stuff.html

I've got errands this afternoon, darn it, but will try to be back in time to catch some of the chat. Keep Greg talking, everybody ... don't scare him off until I get there ;)

Christine - [<---- new story!]
Friday, November 7, 2003 05:43:42 PM
IP: 208.186.188.253

after a week and a half of computerlessness, i finally have my computer back from my brother... with upgrades! i'm now slightly faster and have a burner and DVD player! woohoo!
so, yeah, i'm back, and i'll try to be in the chat tonight...

matt
Friday, November 7, 2003 04:40:55 PM
IP: 216.178.8.44

I'm looking forward to Greg's visit to the chat room tonight, although I don't know if I'll be brave enough to actually post anything.

Stephen, thanks for the link to your "When the Fur Flies" story. It's a crossover I wouldn't have anticipated, but it's a fun story. Be sure to let us know when you post the next installment.

Sahyinepu, I had always thought that Goliath's frozen pose may have been a reference to a statue called "The Thinker." My first thought when you first described the gargoyle impersonators at the TRF was that they could also be referring to that statue. But it certainly could be a reference to the show, since they say it's a gargoyle impersonation. It'll be interesting to hear what they have to say when you ask them tomorrow.

Abby
Minneapolis, MN
Friday, November 7, 2003 04:01:48 PM
IP: 161.225.1.12

Just a reminder. I'll be in the S8 chatroom today (Friday, 11/7) at 4pm PST (7pm EST).

Hope to see you there.
Greg Weisman
Friday, November 7, 2003 01:48:14 PM
IP: 66.81.104.169

Impfac> Oh hey! I was just thinking about you the other day. What's been up?
Gabriel
Friday, November 7, 2003 12:28:32 PM
IP: 129.120.86.32

All the different _________ moons are always coming up, so when noticed this, I thought "why the heck not?".

There will be a lunar eclipse tomorrow night, resulting in a blood moon. Check the link.

CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Friday, November 7, 2003 10:36:39 AM
IP: 132.170.36.145

Sahyinepu- this year when I go to TRF the last weekend I'll have a chance to fill in for gypsy dance theatre a little at the end while they go out and get the tips (don't know which show yet). Its a small part, but a dream come true for me as they are very selective (rightfully so) about the caliber of dancer they get. Its really an honor- I've studied Raks Shaki (middle eastern dance) over 12 yrs now, as well as other dance forms
jenna
Friday, November 7, 2003 08:56:28 AM
IP: 66.139.7.140

Hello! Long time no see, although for obvious reasons. I don't see many familiar faces. Where are Lurking Fish, metal demon, and green baron? Those are faces I'd like to see...

Whats new with the fandom in the last... oh, say, year and a half =P I've been away for um health reasons...

"Signatures are for losers, leave me alone...

Why are you even looking down here? Go away."

Impfac - [Impfac@yahoo.com]
Albany, NY
Friday, November 7, 2003 12:53:58 AM
IP: 24.195.195.103

Jenna What do you do out there? I am thinking of trying to get a job at the ren fest, and am currently selling things at Bizare Bazaar. The ren fest is a lot of fun, hey?

JJ Gregarious It is an obvious spoof on Goliath. The tall guy is perched upon the shoulders of the short guy, and appears to be kneeling, then puts his left elbow on his knee and rests his chin upon his fist, and has a stern face. He rolls his eyes back to appear as a statue. And one of them says it is their imersonation of a gargoyle. I only know of one gargoyle who looks like that(pose wise), and that one pose is easily recognizable as a gargoyle, cause Goliath is constantly being shown in that pose, both in beginning and end credits of every Gargoyles episode, minus perhaps the Goliath Chronicles. It is the only pose that one could do, while dressed in regular garb, and look noticably like a gargoyle based on pose recognizabillity alone..after all, no mask is being used, no wings, just the guy perched upon the shoulders of a man in that particular pose. And of course, the statement being made before the pose that it is a gargoyle impersonation.

I stand by my claim that it is Goliath in specific that is being impersonated. I can confirm if you like by asking this Saturday..then we will all know. :)


Sahyinepu
Houston, TX
Thursday, November 6, 2003 02:48:21 PM
IP: 64.221.11.30

Sahyinepu, what makes the gargoyles impersonation specifically a *gargoyles* impersonation?
JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Thursday, November 6, 2003 02:03:25 PM
IP: 65.244.173.184

thanks ^_^
jenna
Thursday, November 6, 2003 02:02:34 PM
IP: 66.139.7.140

Jenna....It is the Txas Renaissance Festival in Plantersville, I believe, off 1774. The act follows or preceeds the "Ded Bob Show", and is a juggler act. Not sure what they call themselves. I think it is "Throw Up", but again, not sure. If you are going to that ren fest, go see the juggler act and then stay for the Ded Bob Show. The scene with the Goliath impersonation happens when the tall guy is kneeling on the short guys shoulders. This takes place after the audience is asked wo tehy want to see on top, and who they want to see on bottom...of course the audience wants the tall guy on the short guys shoulders. Anyhow..it is a simple act but people aeem to get who they are hinting at, with their gargoyles impersination.
Sahyinepu
Houston, TX
Thursday, November 6, 2003 01:07:06 PM
IP: 64.221.9.112

Sahyinepu

Regarding the TRF act- who exactly was it, do you know. I am going this next weekend to the final weekend to perform, and would like to see if I can catch it between act-but I need to know where to go so I can hustle - also I have good friends and family who work it, and would like to see if they know about it- thanks

Jenna
Thursday, November 6, 2003 08:43:35 AM
IP: 66.139.7.140

JJ: While I don't think Lex ever hit the "too good" point. But I do think missed some opportunities to 'explain' Lex's knowledge. Lex reading Popular Mechcanics in the background, or a "Hey, I saw this on TV" line could have been done.
But that said, what we were given was sufficient enough for me when I was 10, during the first run.

CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Thursday, November 6, 2003 08:05:59 AM
IP: 132.170.36.145

LEVA - Sorry, but Hunter's Moon was in October. I think that the November full moon is the Beaver Moon.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, November 6, 2003 07:28:02 AM
IP: 63.186.1.128

Leo> *checks calculations* Ewww, you're right. Thanx. Seems I cannot calculate timezones... it's +6 hours' most of the time (except when daylight saving starts differently in both areas)
Guandalug la'Fay
Thursday, November 6, 2003 04:10:18 AM
IP: 134.147.82.247

Another idea.

I discovered that Michael Reaves one declared that while Lex would have some technical ability, he didn't want to turn him into Donatello the Ninja Turtle. Lex would still be a character who grew up in the tenth century.

Do you think that the creators succeeded, or do you think that Lex got a little *too* good with modern technology?

JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Thursday, November 6, 2003 02:46:00 AM
IP: 65.244.170.253

Isn't Friday the Hunter's Moon or pretty darn close to it?

Greg: And I thought *I* felt bad when I swing by the chatroom and nobody else is there. I have to work, unfortunately, or I'd certainly be there Friday. :(

We ought to have one day a month when there's a semi-official chat in the main room, for the fans and any pros who want to show up ;) (I've suggested the night of the full moon before -- easy to remember, appropriate to the show, and it doesn't always fall on the same day of the week, so nobody's going to be excluded 100% of the time due to scheduling issues.)

Leva
(Who has been AWOL due to 70 hour work weeks and connection issues.)

Leva
Wednesday, November 5, 2003 11:52:14 PM
IP: 162.42.84.24

Greg's going to be in the chatroom? At 7pm? Here? Nice! I'll be there.
Rac
Troy, NY, USA
Wednesday, November 5, 2003 11:03:30 PM
IP: 24.194.40.37

Ah Dang! Got a school thing then!
CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Wednesday, November 5, 2003 10:21:46 PM
IP: 132.170.36.145

Guandalug la'Fay: "Eww... 3 am local..... "

Wouldn't 7pm Eastern only be 1am in Europe? (GMT + 1)

Leo
Wednesday, November 5, 2003 09:14:36 PM
IP: 68.96.8.12

*eyes the post of Greg* 7 PM East cost? Eww... 3 am local..... okay, I'll try :) We might need a chat with activated logging..... or somebody who's quick enough to keep a full-blown chatlog.
Guandalug la'Fay
Wednesday, November 5, 2003 05:57:56 PM
IP: 145.254.106.77

Patrick>>The weird thing is, the first season of the show ended last weekend, and the second season begins this weekend.

Yes, I remember the hiatus late summer, but according to the FoxBox and Mirage folk, second season starts this upcoming episode.

Also, I hear that the "filler" episodes. of season one will take on more significance as the series progresses. It's like the way Greg and Co. liked to take small details from early Gargoyles episodes and expand them into full-blown plot arcs. Remember the Illuminati?

Hey! I at least mentioned Gargoyles this time! *phew*

JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Tuesday, November 4, 2003 10:03:44 PM
IP: 65.244.170.253

Don't get me started on the new TMNT. The pacing of the plot is agonizingly (pardon the obvious) turtle-like. Every third or fourth episode is a filler story that in the end does nothing to advance the continuity. They're only into the first half of the second season, and already they've done two major multi-part stories, both of which felt like they lasted twice as long as they really needed to. The background art is great, but the quality of the animation has been inconsistent at best. The highest praise I can give on that regard is to the character illustrators who dared to be a rebel and give April a change of clothing every week. This series is good, but it could be a lot better if they'd pay a little more attention to detail in the editting and kick the tempo up a notch or three.

Stephen - I'll be sure to check it out when I have a moment.

Patrick
Tuesday, November 4, 2003 09:23:19 PM
IP: 65.43.159.202

TMNT>> Stephen, or what I thought I already said. ;-P.
"New "TMNT Goodness>> If you want a campy show that is basically a troupe of 'toon comedians in a parody of action cartoons, then the new TMNT show is not for you. (Note: I'm not really talking to Stephen here!)

Problem is, I'm not sure I'd enjoy the old TMNT 'toon anymore. :-/

Real Problem>> How do I link this post to Gargoyles? Anyone?

JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Tuesday, November 4, 2003 09:02:04 PM
IP: 65.244.170.253

Thanks, Stephen. That's really nice of you.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, November 4, 2003 07:52:59 PM
IP: 65.178.241.241

TODD - <After looking at your story, I find myself regretting that I never finished the crossover between "Gargoyles" and "X-Men: Evolution" that I began but abandoned two years ago.>

Todd, believe it or not, I've got the starting part of an X-Men: Evolution/Gargoyles crossover sitting in my fics-progress file... trust me, it's not a bad idea. If you ever want to talk about hashing your idea or mine, drope me a line, k?

Maintain and check Six!

Stephen R. Sobotka Jr. - [ssobotka33616_AT_yahoo.com]
Tampa, FL, USA
Tuesday, November 4, 2003 07:46:51 PM
IP: 24.164.29.234

GREG - Thanks for telling us about the chat session. I know that I'll be there.

Re sarcasm: I think that sarcasm works better in spoken form than in print.

STEPHEN - After looking at your story, I find myself regretting that I never finished the crossover between "Gargoyles" and "X-Men: Evolution" that I began but abandoned two years ago.

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, November 4, 2003 07:21:58 PM
IP: 65.178.241.241

D'oh! Forgot the link to the archive!

Maintain and Check Six!

Stephen R. Sobotka Jr. - [ssobotka33616_AT_yahoo.com]
Tampa, FL, USA
Tuesday, November 4, 2003 06:55:56 PM
IP: 24.164.29.234

Sheltie - <TMNT Comments> To be honest, The new series isn't that new... the people animating it have gone back to tne best source for TMNT goodness: The original Black and White commics that Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird (the creators of the Turtles) wrote/drew back in the early eighties... They've added some new twists, and the characters have a fresh new look, but the stories are all classic and WAY better than the campy, slapstick version that was released in the nineties. Trust me on this.

GREG - I'm there, man.

As long as I'm here, I'll make a short fic announcement... Patrick, you might want to listen to this:

"As The Fur Flies, Part 1", my latest crossover is now posted to the fanfic archives on garg-fans.org... this should be a treat for everyone. Read and enjoy!

Maintain and Check Six!

Stephen R. Sobotka Jr. - [ssobotka33616_AT_yahoo.com]
Tampa, FL, USA
Tuesday, November 4, 2003 06:55:13 PM
IP: 24.164.29.234

Okay, Vash, you asked for it...

I'll stop by the Station 8 CHAT ROOM this Friday, November 7th, 2003 at 4pm PST. (That's 7pm on the East Coast. The rest of you figure out your own time zone.)

Please spread the word. (Nothing's more depressing than when the so-called "pro" stops by and there are no fans who want to chat.) Maybe we can get a big crowd and hang for a bit.

Hope to see you there,
Greg Weisman
Tuesday, November 4, 2003 06:21:29 PM
IP: 66.81.244.252

"personally don't want a revelation about what Titania whispered to Fox" I agree but for a slightly different reason. Every fantasy universe needs some mystery. An enigma of sorts to provoke interest. Like Tom Bombadil in Tolkien's writings.
goliath_994
Tuesday, November 4, 2003 06:09:55 PM
IP: 24.243.105.129

The Texas Rennaisance Festival is awesome. I haven't been able to go in a few years but every year I try. Something I'll bet just about every Garg fan would love.
goliath_994
Tuesday, November 4, 2003 06:06:35 PM
IP: 24.243.105.129

Hi all.
Silverbolt> "Don't forget Swat Cats!" - Not sure I've seen that, though the name rings a bell. In fact I only noticed the channel a couple of weeks ago when I was taking a break from essay readings. Having eye problems @ the minute so couldn't sit for long looking at fuzzy pages of notes. Thank goodness for cartoons!

JJ Gregarius> "Truthfully, the new _TMNT_ is only tangentially related to the cartoon we grew up with" - Yeah, I found that a bit of a let down actually, though it was at least better than the other (live-action) version. Too set in my ways I guess!
Even if a new series was never made, I would at least like to see them relaunch the original Gargoyles for the next generation. As in: give it a new timeslot - on the main disney channel perhaps - some decent advertisement, hype it up a bit with new merchandise, whatever.

CKayote> Hey, sarcasm is like modern art: Sometimes you get it, sometimes you don't!

I've really gotta sleep now - early start tomorrow.
Night!

Sheltie
Shetland, UK
Tuesday, November 4, 2003 05:36:31 PM
IP: 213.122.174.249

CKayote>>Oops.

Continuity changes>>Todd, here's a sort of counter-example: _TMNT_ was a popular '80s "underground"(right word?) comic that, circa '86-88, inspired a cartoon studio to create an *extremely* different cartoon series that became a smash hit. This cartoon studio (Fred Wolf?) virtually ignored Eastman, Laird, and the fans of the Mirage continuity.

Of course, I'm not sure how the original Mirage TMNT fandom in the '80s compares to the Gargoyles fandom now. The Mirage fandom couldn't have approached the first TMNT cartoon's fandom in size, though.

In any event, this scenario does seem impractical for Gargoyles. Why revisit the original comedic development, for instance, if Disney had rejected it before. Would Disney have to be hard put for new ideas?

JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Tuesday, November 4, 2003 01:51:01 PM
IP: 65.244.170.253

I think some people here underestimate how people do or do not recognize Gargoyles.

First off, my mom is an art teacher, and her students on free days want to draw Gargoyles. She tells them the can, but no blood or gore(this after I told her they chunk people off buildings and show blood). These are elementary students, mind you.

At the Texas Rennaisance Fsetival, one of the largest in the country, a juggling act does an impersonation of a gargoyle, Goliath to be specific, the scene from the movie/intro where he is shown in a reflective position, in stone, with his chin resting on his fist, kneeling. Everyone laughs about it, and seems to recognize the pose.

Anyhow...I think in the end that a good screening of recognition would reveal that most people do know what the show is/was, and most would find it popular and want to see it on. I think what shot Gargoyles in the foot was that perhaps many thought it was a kids show and so many in the sci.fi community missed out on it in its early days, and are now only beginning to see it, as re-runs.
Sahyinepu
Houston, TX
Tuesday, November 4, 2003 01:41:24 PM
IP: 64.221.8.115

JJ: I did understand what Sheltie meant. I was just being sarcastic about it.
CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Tuesday, November 4, 2003 12:03:03 PM
IP: 132.170.36.145

I don't know if bringing back "Gargoyles" in an entirely new continuity would be feasible. Generally, when an animated series gets remade with a "continuity from scratch" approach, it's one where the property was an extremely recognizable one (as with the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, for example). "Gargoyles" never achieved the same level of recognition with the general public. Therefore, doing a remake of "Gargoyles" with alterations from the original series (as in, say, the gargoyles here being actual statues on a New York building that were brought to life in a freak accident, or humans mutated into gargoyle-like creatures) would only bewilder or antagonize the current fandom - who would be the people on whom a "Gargoyles" revival would hinge. A self-defeating policy.

(Although Greg Weisman did mention that his own plans for the live-action movie were to make it a "different continuity" - for example, the gargoyles who would be revived in the modern world would be just Goliath, Lexington, and Othello, though the remainder of the clan would turn up at the end, and Othello would apparently get smashed in his stone sleep in the modern world in a manner that would pave the way for a sequel involving Coldstone.)

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, November 4, 2003 07:30:07 AM
IP: 63.186.1.234

CKayote>> You just did. Also, I think you misunderstand what Sheltie means by "treated any different." The shows she mentioned have been revived in some form or another, so she reasons, if I understand correctly, that _Gargoyles_ deserves another shot as well.

Shelte>> Keep in mind that some shows you mentioned haven't been resurrected in the manner many of us want _Gargoyles_ to be. The new _TMNT_ cartoon, for instance, is not a continuation of the old cartoon. Rather, it is a new series based upon the original comic books by Mirage (Kevin Eastman & Peter Laird). Truthfully, the new _TMNT_ is only tangentially related to the cartoon we grew up with.

Speaking of "comic"...

When I read the discussion here about reviving Gargoyles as a "comic" series, I immediately thought of something along the lines of the first _TMNT_ cartoon, or the original comedic _Gargoyles_ development. Now, wouldn't *that* be odd!

I guess in this situation we'd find out how the fans of the Mirage TMNT felt about the first cartoon.

JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Tuesday, November 4, 2003 03:07:54 AM
IP: 65.244.170.253

Sheltie> <<and there's now the Toonami channel on satellite that's showing series like Justice League & Batman of the Future alongside the likes of Pirates of Dark Water & He-Man>> Don't forget Swat Cats! ;)
silverbolt
Tuesday, November 4, 2003 02:58:28 AM
IP: 81.131.117.15

Sorry Sheltie, Gargoyles should be treated differently. It kicked all those other shows asses! (Can I say ass on this board?)

I agree with Todd that they should never say what Titania whispered to Fox. Not only is there the big chance for a letdown (I do have faith good writing however.....), but it would be a great dramatic plot device. Just think about it....

Similarly I would love to learn more about Duval, but not too much. He needs to remain shadowy, if we learn everything, it wouldn't be fun anymore. I don't object to him being used as a physical character, but he should be Duplicitous and inexplicable, both helping the cast and hindering them (often with the same gesture). But at the same time he is suffering silently, know one in the world he can confide in. That said, Duval should voiced by Greg.

And on bringing it back; I agree with Jim R. I'd rather see a spin-off. I personally feel the original 78 are sort of 'scared' to the fandom, and shouldn't amended to, but expanded on. Hope you all understand what I'm trying to say.

As such, I'd like Timedancer. It has so much potential because it would, by nature, cross genre repeatedly. Besides, Brooklyn was always my favorite anyway.

CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Monday, November 3, 2003 10:56:30 PM
IP: 132.170.36.145

I personally don't want a revelation about what Titania whispered to Fox, particularly because I honestly believe that if we ever did find out what it was, it might be a letdown. I seriously doubt that anything could live up to the expectations that we have about that whisper.

One thing that I would have liked to see explored if the series had continued (or a spin-off like "Pendragon" been made) would be Mr. Duval, the head of the Illuminati. What we do know about him makes him an intriguing figure with as much potential for being a memorable antagonist as Xanatos and Demona. On the one hand, his goal is to make things right, but his way of doing so is to lead a secret society that is going after the gargoyles (and even giving assistance to Castaway in setting up the Quarrymen), is organized crime's silent partner, runs the Hotel Cabal, and has members like Mace Malone and Xanatos. How does Duval reconcile the two? Is he suffering from an even greater self-delusion case than Demona? Does he know, deep down inside, that the Illuminati is responsible for a lot of evil, but tries convincing himself that the good that it's done or will do outweighs that? Whatever the case, it's clearly (based on Greg's remarks) done a lot of damage to his marriage (to such an extent that his wife will end up helping King Arthur against the Illuminati).

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Monday, November 3, 2003 07:33:41 PM
IP: 63.186.1.212

I'm glad a few others enjoyed the nostalgia trip. Here's one more link: to the 'Gargoyles Fandom Internet Reunion II' page. There's a chat still posted there from when Greg and other staff members dropped by.

Greg> Another chat would be fun! Hope you decide to do it.

Vashkoda
Monday, November 3, 2003 06:49:45 PM
IP: 129.98.127.164

Howdy folks! Been a while, but I'm back, baby! Actually, never left...just lurked a while...

It was very interesting to see the room 2 years ago. The things that jumped out at me the most are the number of posts and the top ten at the start of the comments (who started that anyway?). I started chatting about Gargoyles in 1997 in the fans chat room, but got away from it in early 1998 (caught the Transformer fever). I didn't really get back into Gargoyles until I started making svcds (and now dvds).

I'd love to see Gargoyles back in any form, but I think that a comic series is most likely to make it. Disney is not doing anything with Gargoyles (and I don't think they WILL do anything with it). I think that Cartoon Network would be the best place for new Gargoyle episodes, but I don't think Disney would sell (or that Cartoon Network would buy) Gargoyles. Any spinoff would be cool, but I'd want at least 1 main character from the old series in it.

Still haven't heard or seen anything on Disney's release of Gargoyles on dvd. Once I do, I'll get excited. My dvds were put on hold for a while. I lost interest in the series for a time (like I said before, I've been through every episode 3 times in the past year) and then my dvd burner checked out. But! Now I'm back burning with a new burner and a renewed interest in the series. Finished the 5th dvd last night and am working on the 6th's episodes as I type this. I'm still not sure about converting the Goliath Chronicles to dvd specs.

I'm seeing more and more dvd sets on eBay. Still haven't gotten above 5 discs for all 78 episodes. I guess people don't realize that this bitrate will produce low video quality. The vcd sets are still around too. 26 cds for 78 episodes will put out horrible results. Oh well. I had to find that out the hard way, I suppose others will too.

Been kinda dead in here lately, eh? I saw the 24 hour gap between posts this past weekend. As Brooklyn would say, "Not good...Nooottt good".

Till next time, garg-fans!

Nickerous - [nickerous@yahoo.com]
SC, USA
Monday, November 3, 2003 06:41:02 PM
IP: 66.220.76.169

13th.

I just had to post! My favourtie number... 13...

That is all I will say.

Battle Beast
CanadaMonday, November 3, 2003 02:05:25 PM
IP: 142.59.145.149

12th.

Actually, what I'd really like to see is a comic version. Plot-wise, that would break free of many of the constraints of animation (both S&P and in terms of things like potentially getting spin-offs going). Although admittedly, it wouldn't be quite the same without Keith David and company. I'd be happy to see anything from Greg set in a different universe of his own making though.

Ed
Cambridge, England
Monday, November 3, 2003 01:51:25 PM
IP: 131.111.8.101

(sigh) 11th...missed it.

Yes, I wouldn't want to see Gargoyles revived in its current era state. I'd much rather see some of the future (chronologically) spin-offs, which are more likely anyway. But of course, flashbacks are always welcome. In fact Gargoyles itself, is a lot about flashbacks. So any future series could (and maybe should in the proper context) do some occasional flashbacks to our current Gargoyles era (or even the origin 994 A.D. Scotland) to answer some of questions proposed then that would relate to the newer, future series. I mean, it wouldn't be a Gargoyles series if it didn't, now would it? ;)

Jim R. - [jim@dialwforwarp.com]
Shippensburg, PA
Monday, November 3, 2003 12:50:16 PM
IP: 65.40.69.138

........................Out of breath from running into the room, just barely making the countdown...

10th

Vin

castle0909
Monday, November 3, 2003 09:52:21 AM
IP: 64.12.96.71

*Yawns* 9th !
Babs
Monday, November 3, 2003 09:23:03 AM
IP: 68.80.222.40

Eight's my lucky number, so I'm going to play this time.

My reasons for wanting to see a continuation of "Gargoyles" are as numerous as Greg Weisman's ideas for the series, which is to say myriad. I'd love to see where he and his crew would go with the idea of the Illuminati, for example, and sooner or later we *would* all find out just what it was Titania whispered to Fox. ;) The only drawback might be the knowledge that none of the episodes would be produced by Disney's Tokyo animation studio, which turned out such magnificent work in the original series (and helped to get me hooked on the series in the first place with its sheer visual beauty). Of course, if a revival of "Gargoyles" were to provide so much work for the Disney animators that upper-level management were to decide to save the Tokyo studio from the virtual wrecking ball... Now, how's *that* for a pipedream? (I am a fiction writer, after all.)



Ellen
Chicago
Monday, November 3, 2003 08:57:52 AM
IP: 64.12.96.138

Seven!

Well, like Todd, I'd like to see how the series would've continued had Greg stayed on after The Journey. I don't see why they couldn't revive an older series though - Ninja Turtles have resurfaced after a similar break to gargoyles, x-men seems to be getting constantly regenerated, and there's now the Toonami channel on satellite that's showing series like Justice League & Batman of the Future alongside the likes of Pirates of Dark Water & He-Man (Shows I haven't seen since I was about 8 - I'm 19 now). Why should Gargoyles be treated any different?

Sheltie
Shetland, UK
Monday, November 3, 2003 08:08:16 AM
IP: 213.122.43.33

Reasons why I'd like to see "Gargoyles" return: I'd like to see the follow-up to "The Journey" done correctly, including finding out why the Illuminati helped Castaway set up the Quarrymen in the first place. I also would like the series back because of its effective protagonists, because of its use of myth, legend, literature and history (and my curiosity to see how people like Prospero from "The Tempest" would have gotten into the Gargoyles Universe), its interwoven nature, etc.

The reason why I'm not so sure about it being a good idea to have it return is that it might be looking back rather than moving forward to demand the revival of an old series rather than the creation of a new one (and also the fact that there's no longer a good time slot for "Gargoyles" now that the Disney Afternoon is history).

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Monday, November 3, 2003 07:50:20 AM
IP: 63.186.0.80

Five in the name of something!
silverbolt
Monday, November 3, 2003 02:51:09 AM
IP: 81.131.114.102

Fourth in the name of the first composite number.

I have an idea: what reasons compel us to seek a renewal of Gargoyles? Or, on the other hand, what reasons serve to counter any such renewal?

Why do we want, or oppose, the official continuation of this world?

JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Monday, November 3, 2003 02:16:51 AM
IP: 65.244.170.253

Third!
Demona Taina
Monday, November 3, 2003 01:33:51 AM
IP: 66.50.81.52

2nd in the name of all even prime numbers.
DPH
AR, USA
Monday, November 3, 2003 01:20:42 AM
IP: 204.94.193.34

1st!
CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Monday, November 3, 2003 12:10:19 AM
IP: 132.170.36.145