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Gargoyles

The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending October 16, 2011

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[SPOILER] Just some rambling thoughts of mine about Revelation.

I think my favorite moments in the latest episode of Young Justice have to be Artemis' "I feel naked. And not in a fun way," line, and Robin's understated "Timber" line when the bombs on the vine control center are detonated.

I liked this episode but for me it seemed like one of the weaker ones so far. I might have enjoyed it more if I was a DC fangirl and could fully appreciate all the cameos, but since I didn't know who a lot of these characters were, I wasn't exactly having fangasms like a lot of people who might be more familiar with DC's characters. I'm not really crazy about this interpretation of the Joker, nor his voice acting, nor a lot of his dialogue, although I did like his "Wonderboy, you are mine" line, mocking Dr. Fate. I also wasn't really all that impressed with the voice acting for Poison Ivy, and I didn't really like how Miss Martian's bioship suddenly seems like a member of the team. Not that I would mind having a thinking, feeling ship who can communicate with Miss Martian as a team member, but it seems like the extent of their relationship could have been established a bit more firmly in prior episodes. Wasn't crazy about the bioship being dragged underwater and Miss Martian saying, "She's in shock; she'll need time to recover," when what I was seeing on the screen seemed totally inconsistent with that statement--it looked like the bioship was done for. Obviously that line was needed to establish that the bioship would be coming back to save the day later in the episode when she busted them out of Wotan's cage, but still, meh. Also, normally I don't mind "Hello Megan" all that much but in this episode I didn't like how it was used. Why does Miss Martian even need anyone else to tell her that a hatch needs to be opened?

I enjoyed Dr. Fate. He takes himself so seriously that it's almost funny to me. I chuckled at his "FATE HAS INTERVENED" line.

I enjoyed seeing Red Arrow and Green Arrow putting their differences aside temporarily to fight the plant creatures.

Loved how Captain Marvel was still trying to hang around with the Young Justice team even after his baby-sitting gig was over. Now that I know his secret identity it totally makes sense. Of course a 10 year old kid is going to want to hang around with the teenagers rather than the adults.

Liked seeing that feelings might be growing between Wally and Artemis. After Kent Nelson's advice to Wally that he "find his own little spitfire" it seemed obvious that these two are intended for each other, and I loved seeing how they (initially) acted towards one another in Bereft when they had no memories of each other, but they were quickly back at each other's throats. But now, it's like they're starting to grow on each other, albeit begrudgingly. Towards the beginning of Revelation, we see them walking together towards Robin and Aqualad, and later Artemis gives Wally one of her breathe-underwater things. Then we see Wally trying to be protective of Artemis and Artemis making a sling for Wally's arm. I also liked early in the episode when she kept hitting him in the arm during the meeting with Batman. Spitfire, indeed.

I hope Wolf sticks around for a while, and I hope we get to learn more about his "character" so to speak. I don't know how his intelligence compares to a human's, but we know his brain was enhanced so I think it might be interesting if he got his own character episode at some point. Also, now that I view the bioship as an actual character, I suppose I hope we get to learn a little more about her. While I'm not crazy about the fact that her "character-hood" was established in such a sudden way (to me at least), I hope it's not something that just gets shelved away and never talked about. [/SPOILER]

Rebel

Wow. Jonny's learned to type his bullshit with punctuation now. Maybe the world IS going to end next year. ( ;
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"Bronn, Timmett, the next time Ser Boros opens his mouth, kill him. Now THAT was a threat, ser. See the difference?" -Tyrion Lannister ("A Song of Ice and Fire")

The response from the Walt Disney Studios Home Entertainment team about
your question is that they will release the remaining episodes of
Gargoyles Seasons 2 and 3 sometime in 2012. They cannot comment on the
specific release date for the remaining episodes of Seasons 2 and 3, or
on whether they will be releasing a complete series DVD set containing
Seasons 1, 2 and 3.

At this time, I will have no further information about the release of
the remaining episodes of Gargoyles Seasons 2 and 3 until Wednesday,
December 14, 2011. I will write to you then with an update.

Sherry Baker
Disney Store.com Guest Services

Jonny Modlin - [jmodlin210@gmail.com]
jonny modlin

Stewie Canmore. Huh. Wonder if he had a dog.
Patrick
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Per a recent response by Greg, I have to say his Rhelasian is spot on! Although he didn't translate the first three words, "jun jah shik" means "that jerk".

36. TSENG, SINGH MANH LI (OVERLAPPING)
<efforts> Jun jah shik, nae gah son, po joo get suh!
[Let me at him!]

Richard Jackson

Brainiac: Eh, six of one, half a dozen with the other . . . Greg translates it the same, at least with SpecSpidey: http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=11008

Anyways: [SPOILER] Is Brent Spiner the only guy that can have his character break the fourth wall? Oh, wait, Gobby broke the fourth wall in The Spectacular Spider-Man so I guess its just a thing with tricksters, maximum one per show d:

So definitely an Archmage reference, plus -- again, I know VERY little DC knowledge -- what looked to me like the Hunter scars. Oh, yeah -- Captain Atom (another treat of Greg's) saving Taiwan from nuclear fallout!! Talk about being relevant when they were probably writing/animating that months ago!

Oh, and its not in the realm of show-references, but Artemis's line definitely gave me a double-take, the sort that I had with Rand Robertson's "Very" response to MJ in SpecSpidey . . . always fun to see teens act like they typically would. I almost wonder -- should we get treated to more comics one day -- what we might catch Billy, Susan, and Terry saying when they enter their teens (they're already at 'Yo Mama' jokes, lol). [/SPOILER]


Stuart Canmore, huh? Such a small reveal, and yet it feels like a world of possibilities are now at our imaginations d:

Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible . . . I hope it lasts," -- Willy Wonka

Brainiac: It's my favorite. Hands-down, it's my favorite.

I'm still geeking out at the sheer breadth of the cameos. ALL THE BLOODY CAMEOOOOOOOOOOS!!!

...Ahem, sorry. But seriously, as a total DC geek, this episode was basically visual crack cocaine.

Masterdramon - [kmc12009@mymail.pomona.edu]
"We are the champions, my friend..." - Freddie Mercury of Queen

Anthony> [SPOILER] Vandal Savage, Queen Bee, and Ocean Master. I leave figuring out their ranks to you. [/SPOILER]

As to the Latin, according to the various translation programs I used, [SPOILER] the version Wotan used translated as "Come thunderbolt(s)!" rather than "Come lightning!" [/SPOILER]

Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

Ok, can someone tell me the names of the characters at the end of the tonight's awesome episode? I don't know the [SPOILER] three scare face dude, the hot chick, or the purple masked guy [/SPOILER]. I did recognize, from the previous episodes[SPOILER] Ra's al Ghul, Lex Luther, Klarion the Witch Boy, and The Brain [/SPOILER].

I heard [SPOILER] "Fulmina venite" not "Fulminous venite" [/SPOILER] but I'm sure our Latin experts here can tell us the difference. :)

Anthony Tini

Greg just revealed at "Ask Greg" that the Renaissance Hunter chasing Demona in Florence at the start of "Hunter's Moon Part Two" was named Stuart Canmore. I suspect that the "Stuart" part of his name was a reference to the Stuart kings of Scotland, who were loosely descended from Canmore (I say "loosely" because of some dynastic troubles that Scotland ran into in the late 13th century, which Edward I of England exploited; his seizure of the Stone of Destiny was part of that). The Stuarts had become Kings of Scotland by 1495 (the then-ruler was James IV), though they suffered from a string of misfortune (usually, each one would die young leaving a child successor who'd have his own troubles during his minority that would stay with him even when he grew up); James IV, for example, decided to invade England in 1513 while Henry VIII was fighting a war in France, and was defeated and slain at the Battle of Flodden. Of course, the Stuarts eventually became Kings of England as well with James VI, who succeeded Elizabeth I as James I of England in 1603 (and who might have been partly responsible for Shakespeare's portrayal of Macbeth, Duncan, and Malcolm Canmore in his play). The Canmore Hunters had probably long since broken away from their descent from Scottish royalty by the late 15th century, but maybe Stuart Canmore's parents named their son in honor of their extremely distant cousins.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]

Patrick> Of course you're crazy. That doesn't mean you're also right.

[SPOILER] And the Light stands revealed. Good to know I was right about L-1 (though considering L-2 and L-3, it was kind of a given). I will admit, I did not see L-7 coming, though it certainly makes me happy. [/SPOILER]

So Masterdramon, exactly how much do you love Revelations?

Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

Roger Lancelyn Green also wrote retellings of Norse mythology, the legend of Robin Hood, the myths and legends of ancient Egypt, and even some of Shakespeare's plays (the tragedies and comedies; like most Shakespearean retellers, he didn't touch the history plays).

It's also thanks to Roger Lancelyn Green that "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe" was published. When C. S. Lewis was writing it, he decided to read some of it to J.R.R. Tolkien (Tolkien had read "The Lord of the Rings" to Lewis as he wrote it, and Lewis wanted to return the favor). Tolkien thought that "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe" was dreadful, however, and didn't hesitate to tell Lewis that. Lewis was so saddened by Tolkien's comments that he decided to abandon the book, but before he did so, read what he'd written so far to Roger Lancelyn Green. Green replied, "No, this is a great book, you should finish it and get it published", and so Lewis did just that.

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]

Am I crazy, or was there [SPOILER] both a "Gargoyles" Archmage reference AND a Vizinni "Princess Bride" reference [/SPOILER] in tonight's "Young Justice"?
Patrick
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Aww Dammit! forgot the spoiler tags. Nobody look at my last post!

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Seriously people

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Last chance

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You asked for it!

Algernon
Man, 2010 was a crazy year. Remember when the monolith turned Jupiter into a star? Good times.

PATRICK> Joker plays great with others, even if those others don't tend to last too long. ;)
Algernon
Man, 2010 was a crazy year. Remember when the monolith turned Jupiter into a star? Good times.

Re: Young Justice - I call shenanigans. Everyone knows [SPOILER] The Joker [/SPOILER] doesn't play well with others.
Patrick
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Phoenician> Firstly, enjoy the RLG's King Arthur & His Knights of The Round Table. It's fantastic little adaptation distillation of the Arthurian mythos. If you like that you should probably check out his Greek mythology books.

Secondly, I think it's unlikely that New Olympus is in the Mediterranean. The Med is relatively small and pretty heavily trafficked. I have a hard time imagining the NOs going undiscovered there for over 2000 years, cloak or no cloak.

Algernon
Man, 2010 was a crazy year. Remember when the monolith turned Jupiter into a star? Good times.

Chip> Sorry, yes, please excuse my typo. I'll try again.

Brainiac> Heh, the MacGyver movie with BRIAN BLESSED uses that theory too. What a terrible movie...

Supermorff

Supermorff> don't you mean BRIAN BLESSED?
Chip - [<------The League of Extraordinary Nerds Here!]
"An explanation of cause is not a justification by reason." C. S. Lewis

Brainiac> Heh, the MacGyver movie with Brian Blessed uses that theory too. What a terrible movie...
Supermorff

Landon: [SPOILER] Puck as the Joker.

Puck as the Joker!

PUCK AS THE MOTHERFRAKKING JOKER!!! [/SPOILER]


I already had a sneaking suspicion that "Revelations" would be another top contender for one of my all-time favorite episode, but this basically seals the deal.

Ooh baby...just a matter of hours...

Masterdramon - [kmc12009@mymail.pomona.edu]
"We are the champions, my friend..." - Freddie Mercury of Queen

TV Guide: Young Justice Recruits Brent Spiner and Alyssa Milano for the [SPOILER] Injustice League [/SPOILER] http://www.tvguide.com/News/Young-Justice-Recruits-1038736.aspx Tonight's new episode airs 6:30 ET/PT on Cartoon Network.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

This discussion about Atlantis is making me want to go replay Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis (called by many a fan of LucasArts adventure games the REAL Indy 4). Just so you know, that one favors the Mediterranean location theory as well with an interesting explanation for why the "error" occurred in the first place. It also implies that the volcanic explosion of the island known as Thera, also known as Santorini, was likely responsible for the city's destruction (in part) which would put its demise at around 1600 BCE, WAY after that of the Gargverse version.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

Todd: I'll definitely write my thoughts here once after I've had a chance to read it :)

And yes, of course you're right about Plato placing the island in the Atlantic (the philosophy major in me is currently swearing in shame **sigh** that's what I get for responding in the middle of the night . . . >_>)

What I meant to write was that the most modern theories of Atlantis tends to pin it to some island in the Mediterranean, be it an island that did get wiped off the map in some cataclysmic fashion or perhaps some island that we do know of but, due to incomplete accounts, have simply resettled and renamed it (likely after some ancient natural disaster), unaware that its in fact the legendary island. Plato's account is, of course, one of the reasons why I'm more fond of the Tartessos theory, because while the evidence is typically considered scant, it would put the island in the Atlantic without being in the middle of it . . . plus, it would also be near enough to some other ancient civilizations (like Egypt and Greece).

Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible . . . I hope it lasts," -- Willy Wonka

PHOENICIAN - Congratulations! I hope you enjoy Green's book.

Actually, the traditional location of Atlantis (according to Plato, the first person to write about it) was out in the Atlantic, rather than in the Mediterranean. Though Plato also described the Atlanteans as engaged in a policy of conquering the lands around the Mediterranean, until they were defeated by the Athenians. (That last part seems to have been the central point of Plato's story. He began his account of Atlantis with a story of how an Athenian statesman named Solon, who lived a couple of centuries before Plato, visited Egypt and talked with the priests there, telling them stories about Athens' distant past. The Egyptian priests laughed and said how scanty the Athenians' records were - so scanty that they didn't remember that they'd saved the world from Atlantis' ambitions; Plato followed this with a summary of the priests' tale of how Athens stood up to Atlantis and defeated it, and afterwards Atlantis was destroyed by an earthquake and floods. He followed it up with a more detailed account, which breaks off just as Zeus has grown concerned about the Atlanteans' greed for power and conquest, and has summoned a council of the gods to discuss the problem. I've read a theory - which I find convincing - that Plato stopped writing the story there because he'd noticed a major plothole; the whole point was to celebrate Athens' valor by creating a story about how it had defeated a mighty empire bent on world domination - probably inspired by Athens' victories over the Persian Empire at Marathon and Salamis - but if Atlantis is destroyed by a natural disaster, that takes the credit away from the Athenians, while the natural disaster was necessary to explain why Atlantis is no longer around.)

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]

Matt: Personally, I'm not sure the Atlantean gargoyles had to necessarily have aquatic features. Though Greg hasn't said much about it beyond it being the origin of "Gorlois" and the Praying Gargoyle, he did mention that its "destroyed" c. 9386 BC, likely implying that civilization ended when it (likely) sunk.

While that doesn't rule it out (because, hey, it IS an island), to me the gargoyles just don't have to live in/adapt to an underwater environment like the Loch Ness Clan supposedly does, or even like Aqualad from Young Justice and his thriving-underwater-metropolis-of-a-home.

Scotland being an initial refugee/migration location is interesting . . . If Scotland was the closest destination, it would seemingly throw a bone to the Tartessos-theory (Atlantis being off the coast of the ancient Iberian Peninsula) . . . at least compared to the more classical location of Atlantis in the Mediterranean somewhere near Cyprus, simply because then Greece, Italy, Egypt, Carthage, and a whole host of Mediterranean sites would have been more likely spots to settle in after that particular cataclysm . . . .

I don't think Greg's revealed a particular spot for the island yet, and with New Olympus (though that came milennia later) likely in the Mediterranean, I'm curious where he might pin it :)

On an unrelated note (and I figure this is probably going to catch Todd's attention, hehe), I just put a request at the local library for Roger Lancelyn Green's King Arthur and His Knights of the Round Table. After seeing it mentioned in the Archives and the Comment Room as one of Greg's "primary sources" for his interpretation of King Arthur for so many years, I figured I'd give it a read d:

Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible . . . I hope it lasts," -- Willy Wonka

I'm not sure if this is really the right place to ask this, but is anyone else having trouble accessing the adult GFA?
Spen

Hard time believing Walt Disney World Guest Services would have any knowledge to speak about DVD releases. That's under the purview of an entirely different part of the company.
Patrick
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

<<Well, that just proves, to Disney at least, Goliath Chronicles is canon>>

No, it doesn't. The comics, with Disney's approval, were marketed as canon.

This just means those episodes exist and Disney wants to sell them...

That being said, I shouldn't dignify this any further, since it is clearly fake.

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
Elisa Maza, why don't you just take that "sodie pop" can and stick the straw right into New York's eye!

In regards to jonny modlin's post: sounds like more grist for the rumor mill to me. But if true that means two things: one, a complete season two, which is a plus. Two, all three seasons? Well, that just proves, to Disney at least, Goliath Chronicles is canon. Hey, sometimes you gotta take the downs with the ups sometimes...

As for the discussion surrounding the origins and biology of the gargoyles, I simply find it quite fascinating as well as fun. In a sense, it all reminds me of a special that aired awhile back about what if Dragons were real, and how they came to be. (May have been on Discovery or, more likely, Animal Planet. Someone here could confirm this, maybe?) Still, to me, Gargs will always be the best example of this: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MixAndMatchCritters Not that it's not fun to speculate about 'em!

Anonymous

I got an email from Walt Disney World Resort Guest Services wdw.guest.communications@disneyworld.com that they are projecting a 2012 release for Gargoyles: The Complete Series DVD Set containing all three seasons of 78 episodes and more bonus features.
jonny modlin - [jmodlin210@gmail.com]
Jonny Modlin

Just to clarify: it's a complete rumor at this point or they could change their minds without us ever knowing if it was ever really planned or not. Take it with a grain of salt until there's actual PR.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Jonny forwarded me an email from someone at Disney Store.com guest services that checked with Walt Disney Studios Home Entertainment and ostensibly said that the rest of Season 2 and Season 3 will be released on DVD in 2012. I've sent that email to a DVD news site for confirmation and they said they'd look into it. Feel free to call but I figure that we'll know in a year anyway.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Call Disney Store guest services at 626-773-5383 to ask to find out if the team at Walt Disney Studios Home Entertainment is planning to release Gargoyles: The Complete Series DVD Set containing all three seasons of 78 episodes uncut, more bonus features for a 2012 release and if they set a release date for Gargoyles: The Complete Series DVD Set.
jonny modlin - [jmodlin210@gmail.com]
Jonny Modlin

MASTERDRAMON - Thanks.

MATT - I've also sometimes wondered about the patterns of gargoyle physiognomy - that the Japanese and Mayan gargoyles, for example, resemble the Wyvern gargoyles far more than the London gargoyles do. Your theory might explain that, though only Greg (and further "Gargoyles" stories) can answer the questions for certain.

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]

You can keep your popcorn, I just want more gargoyle biology and culture conversation.

Regarding Atlantis and gargoyles, I've had some thoughts over the years. Keep in mind that a lot of this is totally based on assumptions... or just ideas that I find interesting.

Okay, so gargoyle clans were all over the world once upon a time. I would assume that this includes Atlantis. And seeing as the Atanteans (meaning the humans) seemed to have developed culturally and technologically ahead of other humans, I've often wondered if the first gargoyle-human alliances occurred on the island. What little evidence we have seems to suggest that the Atlanteans were more gargoyle friendly than most other cultures anyway. And it should be noted that since the word "gargoyle" has its roots in Atlantis as I mentioned before, one must assume that the word spread to Europe (at least) from the island. I think the entire idea of making alliances with gargoyle clans started with Atlantis. Before that time, humans would've never considered making an alliance with a gargoyle anymore than they would a lion, shark or other predatory and dangerous animal.

Another thought I've had about Atlantis and gargoyles is in regards to their general appearance and their migration patterns. My thoughts go like this. Gargoyles were all over the place and different areas developed regional characteristics. Sometimes these traits were quite striking such as the lower bodies of many Mayan gargoyles or the heraldic forms of London gargoyles. It has long been suspicious to me, however, that in one small corner of Europe (Britain), we see such a diversity of forms. Wyvern gargoyles are quite different from London gargoyles, afterall. And while we've yet to see a Loch Ness gargoyle, they seem quite distinct as well. My theory is that the gargoyles we consider to be "Scottish stock" are actually immigrants (or refugees) from Atlantis and I think most of the gargoyle varieties in Europe 10,000 years ago were animal-esque in nature. This would imply that gargoyles in Greece, Egypt, Mesopotamia and other European and Mediterranean locales would be more akin to London gargoyles. The Scottish stock is more closely related to gargoyles in the Americas and Asia. The reason I suspect that Scottish gargoyles moved to Scotland via Atlantis is the appearance of the Praying Gargoyle. Notice that the Praying Gargoyle was built by the Atlanteans and more strongly resembles Scottish gargoyles than any other clan we've seen. The Atlanteans presumably modeled it after Atlantean gargoyles. This migration theory not only explains the huge difference between Scottish and English gargoyles, but also might explain some pecularities among the Scottish gargoyles themselves. Even among the Wyvern Clan (and by extension the Manhattan and Avalon Clans) there seems to be a strong aquatic/amphibious appearance to many of the gargoyles. No gargoyle better exhibits this than the very aquatic-looking gargoyle among the Avalon Clan. I think that Atlantean gargoyles were somewhat aquatic and that their descendents in Scotland, particularly in Loch Ness show this. Another thought I've had is that given the Wyvern Clan's location on Scotland's west coast, I wonder if it was the initial colony/refuge for gargoyles leaving/fleeing Atlantis. Maybe more than just some gargoyles settled there, possibly explaining the Megalith Dance and other strangeness in the Archmage's Cage. The phrase "by the dragon" might also have some significance to Atlantis.

Anyway, these are all just some thoughts or theories I've had over the past few years. Some are way out there, I admit, but I'd love to hear your thoughts, criticisms or alternative theories.

Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"... And if we did it before, we can do it again." "And we will. Together." - Goliath and Elisa, "The Edge"

Phoenician> Heh-heh-heh; I knew someone would have to say it sooner or later.

I dunno how much more discussion on gargate evolution and biology will be taking place, but I'll do my best to keep you entertained. Just save me some popcorn!

Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

Brainiac: I can't help it -- "All things are true; few things are accurate" ;)

Gotta say, Landon, that was a fun review to read (almost expected the guy to throw in a Theseus joke in there, lol). Thanks again for keeping an ear out for all-things Greg Weisman on the net, be it for Gargoyles, SpecSpidey, or Young Justice.

Masterdramon: Yeah, a pity Blackie didn't get into the fun soon enough. Oh well . . .

**returns to watch the biology discussions, popcorn in hand**

Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible . . . I hope it lasts," -- Willy Wonka

Landon> Actually, it says "Legend has it..." about Greg bleeding Bard refs and long form storytelling. Of course, there is but one response to such a statement around here...
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

Here's a nice Toon Zone review of Young Justice: http://www.toonzone.net/blog/blogs/438/young-justice-i-didnt-know-i-wanted-it/ Apparently Greg bleeds Shakespeare references and long form story-telling.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

sorry for double posting

I would love TO READ them.
(I'm missing an editing function)

Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!

Matt> I would love your Atlantis theories ^^
Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!

Ha! Yeah, probably. Hell, gargoyles didn't even name their own species. Gargoyle comes from the Atlantean word "gorlois".

And boy, do I have some theories regarding gargoyles and Atlantis.

Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"... And if we did it before, we can do it again." "And we will. Together." - Goliath and Elisa, "The Edge"

Matt> Actually, I'm inclined to think there is at least one major human contribution to bushido in the Gargverse...the name.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

Patrick> Well, you are kind of getting away from my point, but I'm not sure gargoyles didn't use tools or language before humans. We really don't know enough about ancient gargoyles to say. Greg has never said anything concrete, just a lot of possibilities. But I think they developed their intelligence the same way every sentient creature does. I think a lot of people are guilty of "thinking too much like a human". Most of the apes, elephants, dolphins and other animals have their own languages, regional cultures, complex social systems and even construction and use of tools. Humans have taken some of these things to an extreme, I'll grant you, but that doesn't mean they are absent in animals aside from us. Gargoyles communicated one way or another before humans, probably developed cultures based on their environment if nothing else and clearly had strong social systems in place. They may not have developed or used tools until they witnessed humans doing so simply because they had little need of such things. And they have seemingly adapted human language as well, so we just don't know how they communicated before. Although, we must remember that in the Gargoyles Universe, some aspects of humanity were actually gargoyle in origin, such as bushido. It might be that human language and tool use (or at least some of it) actually originated from humans copying or imitating gargoyles! I don't think that is too likely, but it is an interesting thought.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"... And if we did it before, we can do it again." "And we will. Together." - Goliath and Elisa, "The Edge"

Todd: Short answer is, he's...well, an actual wolf. Superboy's simply somewhat uncreative in his naming schema.

But to elaborate a bit further, in "Alpha Male" [SPOILER] the Team fights a variety of mutated creatures in the Indian jungle, including Superboy taking on a pack of oversized wolves. Upon subduing the titular alpha male of the pack and breaking its control collar, it takes a liking to him and assists in taking down the villain, after which Superboy adopts it. [/SPOILER]

Masterdramon - [kmc12009@mymail.pomona.edu]
"We are the champions, my friend..." - Freddie Mercury of Queen

A question for everyone here who's been watching "Young Justice" (I haven't, since I don't have cable). Greg's most recent ending credits post for "Young Justice" mentioned a character in the voice credits named Wolf. Obviously he's different from the Wolf of the Gargoyles Universe, but could anybody here please tell me what the Wolf of "Young Justice" is like?
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]

All those other animals you named that were well adapted to survive still have tiny primitive brains like their ancestors... because they never had need to evolve anything better. The same is certainly not the case with gargoyles. It's worth considering, what pushed them to a level of intelligence on par with that of humans? If they never used tools, never had language until humans came along... then what?
Patrick

Gargoyles would hardly be a special case. Crocodiles, sharks, turtles, frogs, bats and many, many other types of animals have survived relatively unchanged for tens of millions of years. And those are just some of the many vertebrate examples.

I'm not claiming that gargoyles ten million years ago would look (or act) just like they did today, but I would suggest that they were far more similiar to modern gargoyles than humans are similiar to our ancestors from ten million years ago.

My point is that gargoyles are extremely well adapted to survive. We've seen them unfazed by living in tropical rainforests or being unbothered by being essentially naked in a nasty New York winter. There is a reason they were the dominant species of the planet. And I think they held that position for a long time. If it hadn't been for humanity's development of tools, gargoyles would likely have retained that position.

Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"... And if we did it before, we can do it again." "And we will. Together." - Goliath and Elisa, "The Edge"

Matt > In the absence of environmental change driving evolutionary change, yes. But the climate of the earth has not been stable. I can't see gargoyles being some special case species that would not be affected by the shifting of continents and the warming and cooling of the planet.
Patrick
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Patrick> I know what you are thinking, but species can last virtually unchanged for a long time. We know from Greg that gargoyles were around before humans, and I suspect that modern gargoyles (in regards to species, if not culture) have been around considerably longer than most species. The dominance of the gargoyles species probably slowed their evolution considerably. If they were well adapted, further mutations became mostly a liability. Moreover, if gargoyles were raising their hatchlings communally back then, and I feel confident that they were, this would also slow their eveolution. So biologically, I think modern gargoyles have been around a LONG time.

As for culture, I think most elements central to gargoyle culture have been around nearly as long as the species. Without the presence and influence of humans, gargoyles don't seem particularly quick to change their ways.

It all makes me wonder about the first encounters between humans and gargoyles. I imagine the gargoyle was unimpressed with this bipedal animal and I imagine the human was scared to death. Maybe the more things change, the more they stay the same. But I'm sure gargoyles had little idea that humans would rise to such dominance and nearly wipe out their species. Really, for all we know, gargoyles might've hunted humans. That's a weird thought.

Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"... And if we did it before, we can do it again." "And we will. Together." - Goliath and Elisa, "The Edge"

I wouldn't imagine that "modern gargoyles" arose any sooner than "modern man". If you scale the entire history of life on Earth to a calendar year, "modern man" in an evolutionary sense shows up a few minutes before midnight on New Year's Eve. And "modern man" complete with language, civilization, and technology shows up sometime after the countdown has begun and the big shiny ball has begun to drop.
Patrick
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Posting these "Greg Weisman" Formspring responses here for completeness' sake, though as I've already sent the man himself the big list I'm not sure it matters as much. Still...

Blackie Gaxton: Greg Weisman? Okay bloke...I appreciate that he remembered that I exist.

Yorrick the Skull (formerly "Bob;" a spirit possessing a skull from the Harry Dresden Universe, which has imprinted on Prospero, its current owner): *Briefly considers the universe he is currently in*

I...don't think it's prudent to answer this question. Too many potential anomalies.

A bit of a shame that Gaxton couldn't get his response in on time to join the big list, as it's rather amusing, but ah well.

Masterdramon - [kmc12009@mymail.pomona.edu]
"We are the champions, my friend..." - Freddie Mercury of Queen

Dang, it's been a while since I've been here--I can't even remember what name I posted under. And a missed a "first episode you saw discussion? :(

In any case, my first episode was "Vows", sometime in 2003 (I think--it was about a year or two before the first DVD set came out), which I caught as I waited for episodes of Witch Hunter Robin and Big-O on Cartoon Network. As you can imagine, it is not a particularly good episode to start with, although it intrigued me enough to stick around for "City of Stone".

Apropos to nothing, I recently watched the first season of Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman, which I wholeheartedly recommend to anyone who likes the character. While technological constraints meant that it wasn't great at action set pieces--there's no real super-villains--it does have some interesting character bits, including a very Xanatos-ish Lex Luthor (who unfortunately gets derailed in the season finale, since creative differences meant that the actor who played him, John Shea, would not be returning as a series regular, requiring a hasty exit for the character). It also features some Gargoyles voice actors in live-action roles--Tony Jay has a recurring role as Luthor's assistant/confidante Nigel, and David Warner plays Jor-El.

DoKnowButchie - [ianj.perez@gmail.com]

Matt> "I'd love to hear what Sevarius has uncovered about gargates. Ironically, he is probably the world's scientific expert on the class."

He'd probably tell you they're an Order, not a Class (going by "they're both gargates...the way humans and chimps are both primates").

I thought the gorgonopsids could make a good starting point as well (and not just because of the mythical reference). However, they are considered the "most primitive" of the theriodont group and thus discounted from the eutheriodonts (which includes the aforementioned cynodonts, our own ancestors). That specific group of theriodonts are also believed to have perished completely in or before the Permian-Triassic Event while certain cynodonts and therocephalians (the other two major groups) survived into the Triassic.

As such, if we're going with the synapsid origin theory, I'm inclined to go with therocephalians as the source of origin for gargates. One key point of difference between them and their fellow surviving therapsids, the cynodonts, was that they lost the postorbital bar in some forms. For primates, the postorbital bar is found in haplorrhines, which are typically diurnal species. The bar-less strepsirrhines are typically nocturnal and thus have less emphasis on visual input. That sounds like a logical split point to me. However, the number of digits gargates have lends some credence to the dinosauria origin theory, though one could assume the species as a whole gained a form of permanent oligodactyly/syndactyly.

Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

Good thoughts. Also keep in mind that once modern gargoyles arose, the Wind Ceremony would account for a lack of remains. And gargoyles predate modern humans, so any gargoyle fossils that were found would not be at all recent. And obviously those gargoyles destroyed during the day would leave no discernable fossils either.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"... And if we did it before, we can do it again." "And we will. Together." - Goliath and Elisa, "The Edge"

The fossils science has discovered account for such a infinitesimally small fraction of the evolutionary tree that it'd not be surprising in the least for no "proto-gargoyle" fossils to have ever been found.
Patrick
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Matt - Wow, those are excellent hypotheses. I never thought about the Permian mass extinction in regards to gargate evolution - I guess my thinking was stuck in the ever-charismatic Mesozoic era - but that explanation would make a lot of sense.

God, I love these biology discussions!

Regarding gargoyle evolution, something I've wondered about is how gargate ancestors show up in the fossil record, and how human paleontologists would have explained them prior to the revelation of gargoyles' existence.

I can think of two possibilities, one being that the fossil record in the Gargoyles universe, for whatever reason, is the same as in the real world. This would mean either that no gargate ancestor ever died in a location or situation conducive to the preservation of fossil evidence (highly unlikely), or that somehow none of the fossils they did leave were ever discovered (or at least never officially recorded), or were discovered but were mistaken for other animals.

The other possibility would be that paleontologists had discovered some early gargate fossils and recognized that they belonged to a separate group of animals, but, without any apparent evidence of modern-era descendants of such creatures, dismissed them as a minor branch of mammal-like reptiles (or pterosaurs, or what have you) that ended up an evolutionary dead end. In this case, the only difference from the real-world fossil record would be little more than a footnote on a little-known group of synapsid offshoots that probably went extinct around the K-T event, familiar to only the most nerdy of paleontologists (and Sevarius, most likely).

Ross

Matt: I've also always thought of gargoyles having nucleated red blood cells. Namely because mammals are one of the only families on the planet that have denucleated red cells.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"You chicks are better than soaps!" -Fang ("The Reckoning")

MATT - Sevarius probably coined the term "gargate" in the Gargoyles Universe; at least, he's the only one (in "Bad Guys" #4) who ever uses the term in canon.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]

Matt: Wow, that makes so much sense! I love your theory!
D. Taina
"The story is told -- though who can say if it be true..." -Shari

Matt> Wow, your text makes a lot of sense. Awesome writing, thank you. I love how you mentioned the permian extinction event.

Here's a therapsid that totally looks like a Gargoyle Beast: the Estemmenosuchus
http://www.allmystery.de/i/tuySFFk_estemm1.jpg
http://www.fabiopastori.it/images/big/179.jpg
This animal was as big as a hippo, not as "small" as the modern Gargbeasts.

Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!

Brainiac and Comet> The gargate origin among the mammal-like reptiles is really the only hypothesis that makes a lot of sense to me for the reasons you've given (namely hair and lactation of hatched young). For those traits to have evolved independently would be unlikely. Of course, the proto-gargates probably had little else in common with modern gargates. Naturally, these ancient gargates had a lot in common with the earliest mammals, but we've diverged a bit from then. Anyway, I suspect the cynodonts or gorgonopsids are gargates' closest real world groups. As Comet mentioned, gargoyles beasts greatly resemble the gorgons in particular.

I believe stone sleep has its origin in the conditions that caused the massive Permian extinction. Proto-gargates made it through that crucible because of these adaptations. At first, they merely became nocturnal to avoid the stifling heat of the day, but eventually they started using the thermal energy while hibernating for their own purposes. I think the heat also drove them to live in higher altitudes.

Wings evolved later, and obviously not on all the gargates. I think the alpine lifestyle and the benefits of increased surface area led to a flying-squirrel-like membrane to form between the legs and arms. Eventually, as gargoyles began to use these membranes to glide around their mountainous homes, a stiff rod in the wings developed (a gargoyle with this feature is seen in Awakening Part One and has a similiar, but not identical, wing structure to Lex and Sacrifice). This stiff, internal rod eventually developed further and became more muscular and articulated allowing for larger wings and more surface area (these would be Lex/Sacrifice type wings). With more development, the wings first became independent from the arms and then the legs until they became a seperate structure on the back (these wings looked like Kermit's wings). From there it is easier to see how the many other wing types evolved.

So, to wrap this up, I do think gargates are closer to mammals than reptiles, dinosaurs or birds. My hypothesis on wing development explains some key differences between gargate wings and those of pterosaurs or avians. From comments and clues he has given over the years, I suspect Greg Weisman favors the idea that gargates developed from pterosaurs, but we'll see. If mammal-like reptiles were not the origin, then I'd look to pterosaurs as the next most likely candidate, but I still strongly favor the former until we get more information.

I'd love to hear what Sevarius has uncovered about gargates. Ironically, he is probably the world's scientific expert on the class.

Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"... And if we did it before, we can do it again." "And we will. Together." - Goliath and Elisa, "The Edge"

I saw the traielr for Anonymous on TV, and I can't wait to see it. It looks great! But that's just me. I can't say for sure if I will like it or not untill I see it fully and review it.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
I DID IT!!! I WATCHED ALL 485 BEST PICTURE NOMINEES IN ONE YEAR!!!

Anthony> Actually, I just bought that Blu-ray on Amazon. I found it rather amusing that not only is Greg's short part of the DC Showcase but also that both (the voices of) SpecSpidey and Miss Martian are in the short The Return of Black Adam. Ah, Casting Gags...kinda.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

@Landon Thomas - Thanks for the links to the Chris Jones blog. I thought it was pretty cool how two separate sketches for book #7 were brought together to make the final one.

---

Concerning the most recent episode of Young Justice, I'm glad I watched "Superman/Shazam! The Return of Black Adam" on Netflix a couple months back otherwise the end would have TOTALLY confused me.

Speaking of which, if anyone has Netflix you should watch "Superman/Shazam! The Return of Black Adam". It is a good one to watch especially since it contains the Green Arrow short that Greg Weisman wrote.

Anthony Tini

Matt> Indeed, it's a legitimate point. My understanding of the necessary phylogenetics is that if gargoyles are descendants of the mammal-like reptiles, they'd have evolutionary origins amongst the Class Synapsida, the very class that eventually gave rise to mammals such as ourselves (as compared to the Class Sauropsida which led to dinosaurs and eventually modern reptiles and birds). Indeed, the Order Therapsida (which is part of Class Synapsida) is the supposed origin or many traits gargoyles and humans share - namely hair, lactation, and erect posture.

Basically what all this means is that humans would be more closely related to gargoyles than to any reptile or bird currently on the planet (though the branching off would have been many hundreds of millions of years ago, both would be on the same side of the Synapsid/Sauropsid split amongst the amniotic animals). If the usage of non-nucleated RBC goes that far back, gargoyles may indeed have very similar blood to our own. I wouldn't go looking for a gargate blood donor, though.

The one interesting thing I've found looking over information on the Permian is that there is no evidence of any aerial vertebrates during that period. Later on, in the Mesozoic Era, certain theropods showed gliding/flight capabilities, but those were dinosaurs, descendants of the sauropsids. This also leads to another thing that's difficult to "explain" about gargoyles - the fact that most of them have both wings and forelimbs rather than the integrated form like "Sacrifice" and Lexington (to my knowledge, such hexapody does not exist in the vertebrate animal kingdom).

Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

Matt>
"I favor the theory that gargates evolved from the mammal-like reptiles of the late Permian."
Absolutely what I always thought. When you look at Gargbeasts this is almost obvious.

Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!

Brainiac> I had also considered the idea that gargates have nuclei in their blood cells. But, of course, Owen could've said he was getting blood cells when he was actually getting something else, like skin cells or something. That said, the robotic mosquitoes looked like they were going after blood.

I favor the theory that gargates evolved from the mammal-like reptiles of the late Permian. I'm not sure when mammals lost the nuclei in their blood cells, so it is hard to know if the mammal-like reptiles had nuclei or not and thus the gargates.

I do find your spindle cell theory interesting. And in some ways it makes sense. Gargates probably don't have as advanced of a healing and immune response because once a day their stone sleep largely repaired the damage and removed any infection.

Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"... And if we did it before, we can do it again." "And we will. Together." - Goliath and Elisa, "The Edge"

Masterdramon> Presuming the hair had an intact root/bulb, yeah - Thailog could have been produced from just that (the hair shaft itself will only contain mitochondrial DNA which could be used for identification but not cloning). However, the usage of blood raises a potentially interesting point about the biological differences between humans and gargoyles. In mammalian vertebrates, red blood cells lack nuclei and thus contain no DNA. However, for non-mammalian vertebrates, red blood cells are flattened and ovoid in shape and also retain their nuclei, making them usable for cloning purposes.

Actually, another interesting point about mammal-specific blood biology is platelets. They're unique to our branch of the animal kingdom; other vertebrates use what are often called "spindle cells." These are likely what gargoyles use in their own circulatory systems (amongst many other differences in the various white blood cells). If these platelet equivalents for a gargate (presuming they have them) are slower to act compared to humans, this might explain why treating deep cuts is raised in both the Double Jeopardy flashback and in The Green - the necessary time to seal off the access is longer, so there's a greater risk of infection (even with stone sleep to rectify most problems).

Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

Tonight is the Hunter's Moon.

One of the most common Oxfordian arguments I've seen is that Shakespeare's plays were really thinly veiled political allegories about Elizabeth I's court, and that the true playwright's identity was veiled because Elizabeth and her advisors feared that if the public knew that a prominent nobleman had written them, they'd also realize the truth that was going on in her court. That doesn't explain why she and her advisors didn't take the simpler approach of suppressing the plays altogether (especially since Elizabeth I was hostile towards veiled references to her doings in drama anyway, to such an extent that one playwright even put in a hurried protest in the middle of one of his plays, set in the court of a tyrannical king in ancient Sicily, that it was about ancient Sicily and nothing else).

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]

Richard Jackson> Depends, would you rather stab yourself in the throat, or in the stomach?
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
Elisa Maza, why don't you just take that "sodie pop" can and stick the straw right into New York's eye!

So, who is the better director? Roland Emmerich or Michael Bay?
Richard Jackson

Greg B.: D'awwwww, you're such a flatterer. ;)

Though in the interest of full disclosure, I should note that I disagree at least partially with Mister Colbert in the original context. Harding was indeed an abysmal president and easily takes the number two spot, but it is nevertheless statistically impossible to suck worse than Franklin Pierce. :D

Masterdramon - [kmc12009@mymail.pomona.edu]
"We are the champions, my friend..." - Freddie Mercury of Queen

Masterdramon is very often my favorite poster here!
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
Elisa Maza, why don't you just take that "sodie pop" can and stick the straw right into New York's eye!

Greg B.: An America: The Book reference? Major kudos. XD
Masterdramon - [kmc12009@mymail.pomona.edu]
"We are the champions, my friend..." - Freddie Mercury of Queen

Phoenician> I'm afraid my friend is going to drag me to Anonymous when it arrives in our neck of the woods. I recommend Bill Bryson's book, Shakespeare: The World as Stage, especially the last chapter where he totally destroys the anti-Stratfordian arguments.
Richard Jackson

Phoenician> So Roland Emmerich shit all over the film medium with absolute crap like Stargate, Independence Day, Godzilla, The Day After Tomorrow, 10,000 BC, and 2012....

... Now, he's got to shit all over Shakespeare too? Fuck him!

The reasons why he suck are many and, to be truthful, have been widely catalogued in the annals of cinema history. So, with your indulgence, I'd like to focus on the intensity of his sucking.

Roland Emmerich is a worthless piece of shit. Fuck him. His filmography is a taint, not just in the sense of a "stain on the medium," but literally a taint... the anatomical area between the anus and the testicles.

I hate Roland Emmerich.

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
Elisa Maza, why don't you just take that "sodie pop" can and stick the straw right into New York's eye!

Just saw the trailer to Anonymous on television, and I think I felt Greg Weisman cringe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PaliLAQT8k

Matt -- I really enjoyed reading how you finally got to see "Hunter's Moon, Part III" . . . it reminded me of how (after successfully following the series during its two seasons) I lost touch with it myself, only to find it again in 2002, and finally catching TGC . . . something I had somehow missed when it first came out. Seriously, my childhood dodged a bullet thanks to the show changing stations, because even at fourteen I knew I enjoyed "Hunter's Moon" much, much more than TGC's train wreck of a finale. ;)

In hindsight though I'm glad I reunited with those episodes in 2002 -- If I hadn't, I wouldn't have been so keen to find the main theme on the internet . . . a Google search that (along with some other fansites) had me stumbling onto AskGreg and this Comment Room d:

Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible . . . I hope it lasts," -- Willy Wonka

Battle Beast> This fandom is blessed with great artists. Search around, and I'm sure there are plenty of artists who will draw for you in exchange for a fair fee.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
Elisa Maza, why don't you just take that "sodie pop" can and stick the straw right into New York's eye!

Anyone out there a good artist? Just wondering if someone could do a quick sketch for me.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
I DID IT!!! I WATCHED ALL 485 BEST PICTURE NOMINEES IN ONE YEAR!!!

Masterdramon> There may have been others, but the only times I recall Superman bleeding in that show were "Solar Power" when a villain called Luminus changed the yellow rays to red. Clark Kent was shown wiping blood off his face in the bathroom. The other time Superman bled was in Apokolips Now Part One when a machine from Apokolips emitted a high pitched sound that caused Superman to bleed from his nose and ears. Of course, these episodes were after "Identity Crisis" and Luthor wasn't present for either of the bleeds.

I guess I was just disappointed back then since I saw "Identity Crisis" before "A Little Piece of Home" and I was expecting blood. Also, the episode was an easy reference because they show Superman destroying the dinosaur in the opening theme.

But I suppose it was as good as a saving throw the writers could come up with to explain the collection of DNA.

Richard Jackson

Chris Jones covers how he created the covers for Young Justice comics #7: http://blog.christopherjonesart.com/?p=396 and #8: http://blog.christopherjonesart.com/?p=438
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Richard Jackson: To be fair, "Superman: TAS" has rather more of an obligation to explain where exactly the DNA came from than "Gargoyles" for one simple reason: Goliath can be expected to bleed at any time and Supes can't. Being, well, invulnerable and all. And while I haven't seen the episode in question in a couple years, I seem to recall the dinosaur actually biting down on Superman after heavy Kryptonite exposure, so even if there was no visible bleeding there still would likely be some traces on DNA on its teeth.

Honestly, considering Goliath lived in Xanatos' house for months and has little conception of modern technology, I'm surprised they even felt the need to explain the particular instance of cell extraction at all. Goliath's bound to have left traces of hair all over the Castle, I would think (particularly if Owen were to check the library).

Masterdramon - [kmc12009@mymail.pomona.edu]
"We are the champions, my friend..." - Freddie Mercury of Queen

Matt : Honestly, I don't think it was so much a case of us holding our tongues. More likely, after six years, we've run out of Jonny Modlin jokes. There's only so long you can keep making fun of the same guy. (Unless that guy is Drew Pritt.) Plus, the lack of image or text color made it an easy post to miss. (I didn't notice it until you made your comment.)
Spen

HAPPY THANKSGIVING, EVERYONE!!!
Battle Beast - [Canada]
I DID IT!!! I WATCHED ALL 485 BEST PICTURE NOMINEES IN ONE YEAR!!!

I'm just saying that the whole part of getting DNA samples from Goliath would be more impressive if it was shown sometime in an episode of season one. I don't think it's unbelievable as it, it just didn't impress me at all. And the reason could very well be, that Thailog wasn't planned back then.

>>You're acting like they cut between that shot and another shot. They didn't. After the first shot, we cut to Xanatos shutting down the broadcast. Then we cut back to Demona and Macbeth... moments have passed, Demona glides fast, she was trying to lose Macbeth... it is not the slightest bit unbelievable that she ascended a few yards.<<

And here is where I disagree. That cut to Xanatos wasn't very long, but let's say it is a bunch of minutes between these shots. Gargoyles can't fly with their wings, they only glide. I could see Demona ascending 100 yards on her own, if she's got enough speed, but not with Macbeth on her back. That's at least double the weight than normal and it's not like Macbeth just enjoys a ride with her, (well he kind of does) he wants to get her down. Climbing is not an option either. For me there is not enough evidence to believe this, sorry.

>>How could what happen and what's so funny?<<
The drawing of Demona is mirrored, but that was more of a joke than criticism.

Neill - [neillgargoyle(at)gmail.com]

NEILL> The thing is, Goliath and his clan were in that castle for about three months. How is it so unbelievable that an incident like that happened in a three month window? What you are asking for, that it was explained that the DNA sample came from "The Edge" or "Reawakening" would have been insulting the audience's intelligence. Especially if it were "Reawakening" when Goliath did not grapple with Xanatos or a Steel Clan robot.

<<-The Demona/Macbeth chase scene in city of stone part 2. In one shot demona glides barely 10 yards above the ground with Macbeth on her back (in front of pack media studios) and short after that she is 150 yards up in the air>>

You're acting like they cut between that shot and another shot. They didn't. After the first shot, we cut to Xanatos shutting down the broadcast. Then we cut back to Demona and Macbeth... moments have passed, Demona glides fast, she was trying to lose Macbeth... it is not the slightest bit unbelievable that she ascended a few yards.

<<-Just look at the back of Clan Building vol 2. How could that happen? lol>>

How could what happen and what's so funny?

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
Elisa Maza, why don't you just take that "sodie pop" can and stick the straw right into New York's eye!

Neill> Well, at least they showed when the blood sample was taken from Goliath. Your other suggestions is that they could have gotten a DNA sample during the battles in "Awakening" or "The Edge" is possible, but I don't think Thailog was a twinkle in Greg Weisman's eye yet. In fact, he got the idea for Thailog hearing "Goliath" played backwards in sound mixings.

But even if they had retconned and said that the DNA was collected during the battles of the aforementioned episodes, it would have annoyed me in the way Superman: The Animated Series annoyed me when they cloned Superman. In "A Little Piece of Home", Lois and Superman are attacked by a giant robot dinosaur controlled by Lex Luthor. It roughs Superman up a bit, but eventually he beats the dinosaur and there's no blood in that scene. However, in the episode "Identity Crisis", where Superman's clone Bizarro was created, they said they got Superman's blood from the dinosaur fight.

So, even if the scene in "Gargoyles" feels too much like a retcon, at least Greg Weisman respected his audience and didn't say blood was procured at a time when it was clearly not drawn. And yes, that non-sexual double entendre (drawn) was intended.

Richard Jackson

I watched Double Jeopardy again yesterday and this episodes has one of the very few things I don't really like about Gargoyles. It's actually not that big of a deal, but after all the mind blowing plots and twists I thought the beginning of this episode is a bit weak. The flashback scene with Goliath and Elisa and one of the robots from the steel clan actually happened in season one while Xanatos was in prison. You never see this scene during season one. I think it'd be better if they made a flashback to an actual steel clan fighting scene from season one. Let's say to reawakening and make it so that Xanatos in his robot suit was the one scratching Goliath and collecting the blood sample. The time to clone Goliath could've been easily adjusted for this. I don't know how much of Greg's master plan had been materialized during season one, but after all I have the feeling that this would be a better explanation, although Goliath never had a claw mark on his arm during reawaneking. The flashback how it is now feels a bit like "yeah let's make a scene to explain this/that". I'm just sharing my opinion here, I don't know if someone ever asked Greg about this...

So the few other (all minor) things I think were bad:
-Macbeth's animation when he escapes from Goliath through the door during the fire in >Macbeth< just looks horrible
-The Demona/Macbeth chase scene in city of stone part 2. In one shot demona glides barely 10 yards above the ground with Macbeth on her back (in front of pack media studios) and short after that she is 150 yards up in the air
-Just look at the back of Clan Building vol 2. How could that happen? lol

Neill - [neillgargoyle(at)gmail.com]

On a tangent from the first-episode-you-saw discussion, I thought I'd tell you about the last episode I saw for the first time. It may not surprise you to learn that the last canon episode I saw was Hunter's Moon Part Three. Afterall, it is the end of the season. However, I didn't get to see it for a LONG time. I remember seeing Hunter's Moon One and Two (the latter ending on the Clocktower explosion cliffhanger) and then something happened where I was unable to be home to watch the next episode. Being a big fan, I was massively dissapointed, but figured it'd be rerun soon enough. Afterall, how many times had I seen the early World Tour episode reruns! So a month or two passes by or whatever and I eagerly wait to see what happens... and I end up getting detention that day. I don't remember what I allegedly did, but I do remember that it wasn't really my fault and that my mom actually came up to school and argued with my teacher about it (go mom!), but deep down I knew it didn't matter. There came a point that there was no way I was going to catch the episode... So another month or two passed and I got into the habit of watching the first minute or so of an episode and if it was an episode I wanted to see or I was just bored or whatnot, I'd watch it, otherwise I'd wouldn't. Sometimes I wouldn't even check it, unfortunatly, but I noticed the episodes were going in sequence and I'd be able to catch the final episode when it aired. So, I remember watching a few World Tour episodes. A week or two later, I turned it on to see where we were and (like an idiot) ONLY watched the "Previously On Gargoyles..." segment. Considering the content of the segment, I figured the episode was "The Gathering" or something I'd already seen, but assumed that Hunter's Moon would be coming up soon so I made a decision to start watching more closely. Well, the next day my heart sunk when "Awakening Part One" came on. I had missed it for the THIRD time! I felt like such an idiot. Anyway, I was determined not to miss it a fourth time. In fact, I knew days in advance when it was to air again. I had it set to record and my family had heard me talk and whine about it so much that they all sat and watched it with me! That day (some six months after I'd been left with the Clocktower cliffhanger) ended up being one of my strongest Gargoyles memories. Even more than my own initial impressions to the episode, I have clear memories of my family's reactions to MY reactions to the Clocktower's fate, Elisa's "death", the reveal to the public of Clan, Operation Clean Slate and the kiss. In the end, it really made that final episode really special for me. At the time, I knew that The Goliath Chronicles would be premiering soon and thought the series was just set to continue. I didn't know how dissapointed I'd be in those episodes. Ironically, my experience had taught me to be more careful. I saw every TGC episode on it's first airing... Of course, TGC ended up contributing to me taking some time off of from "Gargoyles" (until I discovered this site in 2000), but I'll never forget that special moment in late 1996 when the series wrapped up (for the time) with a bang.

Anyway, thanks for reading my long story, assuming you made it all the way through! Also, and I wonder if I should even say anything here, but I wanted to tell everyone here "Good Job!" Last week we were visited by a couple trolls (or at least a few trollish comments) and for the first time in a long time, NO ONE took the bait, EVERYONE ignored the post and carried on the discussions. Go us! If we can continue to hold out toungues when trolls come by, hopefully they'll learn to either shape up or leave without us having to waste our time on the matter. Cool!

Alright, I'm off my soapbox...

Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"... And if we did it before, we can do it again." "And we will. Together." - Goliath and Elisa, "The Edge"

Supermorff: Meh, that one's a little too obvious, even for me. ;P
Masterdramon - [kmc12009@mymail.pomona.edu]
"We are the champions, my friend..." - Freddie Mercury of Queen

Masterdramon> What, you couldn't have gone with total number of Harry Potter books and movies?
Supermorff

(10th)Tenth and away we go on with the show!!!!!!!!!!
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
God Bless you All!

Ninth!
The One Known As Mochi - [shogi.keima.08@gmail.com]
Current Mood: (>--)> Zzz...

And now I feel all silly. :P

Alrighty, eighth in the name of...the total pieces of soul involved in the aforementioned Horcrux creation? Counting the original piece that later got a body (AND DIIIIIIIED!), we get eight.

...Yeah, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it!

Masterdramon - [kmc12009@mymail.pomona.edu]
"We are the champions, my friend..." - Freddie Mercury of Queen

LOL, welcome to the "foreground" so to speak, Ross. :D

Anyway, seven in the name of...uhh, the total number of Horcruxes Lord Voldemort unwittingly made?

Yeah, that's the ticket.

Masterdramon - [kmc12009@mymail.pomona.edu]
"We are the champions, my friend..." - Freddie Mercury of Queen

Siete.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"... And if we did it before, we can do it again." "And we will. Together." - Goliath and Elisa, "The Edge"

Well, I think that the question of my first episode is a perfect opportunity to end my several years of doing nothing but lurking here. Hello, Comment Room.

My first Gargoyles episode... well, I'm not sure. I wasn't a fan of the series as a kid - I knew of the show, and caught a few episodes (episodes I can now identify as Long Way To Morning, Walkabout, Mark of the Panther, The New Olympians, and The Green), but I have no idea which I saw first. I never got into the show then, for whatever reason (I remember thinking, on little evidence, that it was very similar in concept to Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, which I didn't really like, so that turned me off).

I saw the episode I consider my "first" back in '05, during my freshman year of college. I was channel surfing one evening, checking out all the cable channels that I didn't get at home, happened upon Toon Disney, and saw "Coming up next: Gargoyles!" Remembering the show, I thought, eh, might as well watch this episode, see if it's any good, not really expecting much... And what should come on but "City of Stone, Part 1". I was immediately intrigued, so over the next few weeks I watched the following episodes, checked websites for information, read episode synopses (unfortunately spoiling myself of several important revelations)... and I've been hooked ever since.

...And, six? Wow, I feel like an Illuminati member...

Ross

Five in honor of the t-shirt I just ordered with the five Captain Planet elements (earth, fire, wind, water, heart) in Chinese characters. The first four on the front, the last on the back.
Richard Jackson

Quattuor
Chip - [<------The League of Extraordinary Nerds Here!]
"An explanation of cause is not a justification by reason." C. S. Lewis

Tercero.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

2th!
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
"And the dealer wants you to think that it's black or it's white/ Thank God it's not that simple, in my secret life." -Leonard Cohen

FIRST!
Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible . . . I hope it lasts," -- Willy Wonka