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The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending July 6, 2009

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Evening friends, as of tonight I will be attending this years gathering. Upon hearing this would be the final one, I decided it was something one couldnt turn down. For those who recall, I was Odin for last years Masqureade, this ear I was planning a King Arthur ensamble. Though the fact I cant haul my armor peices through airport security makes it more challenging.
Justin "I'd rather be pillaging"

@ rebel- i did not know that 4-h had insect identification. but yea 4-h was kina my first job i thought it was cool to get over 300 for a pig.
Matt T. - [mattstewto at yahoo dot com]

about the gargoyles movie and adding girls. the TMNT movie did not substatute some of the turtles to add female turtles they combined the cartoon and comic and it was good. i compared TMNT because its as close as i could think of as a comparison to gargoyles.
Matt T. - [mattstewto at yahoo dot com]

So sad when Bratman got himself and his parents kicked out of the theater by throwing a tantrum, only for them to end up killed by a pot addict who'd later become known as The Toker.
Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

It's the second part of this big comic epos, BRATMAN BREGGINS was the first one.
I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

Brook: I don't think I've ever heard of "The Drak Knight." Was that a sequel to "Enemy Mine"?
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"'In the end?' Nothing ends, Adrian. Nothing ever ends..." -Dr. Manhattan ("Watchmen")

Actually, getting onto Constance again, one thing struck me a lot harder than the fact that she is based on a boar. I hate the nickname Coco. I knew a gorilla named that once. It's a flavor of drink. Some cereals come in that flavor, too. It's a bean and makes one of my most favorite tastes.

I just don't see "Coco" as a decent shortform for Constance, nor do I like "Coco" to begin with. Oh well. She still has a lot of potential. I simply won't call her Coco and need to remember that's who you are all talking about.

Jade Griffin - [jade_griffin at hotmail dot com]
"Food, food, FOOD!!" - Jade Griffin, on many occasions

Ed> You make a good point about the potential for Desdemona to provide Goliath with someone from his own generation he can relate to and potentially reduce his need to befriend Elisa. With that in mind, I think I probably would have to kill her off. And of course, it would be very clear that there is no possibility of any romance between them. They're just friends/rookery siblings, gargoyles mate for life, etc, etc.

Patrick> I think the issue is that the potential movie might have to cram more in than "Awakening" does because it's meant to stand on its own, not kick off a TV series. If there was a hypothetical sequel to this hypothetical movie, it would be at least a few years off and certainly not a sure thing. If there's a character who doesn't grab the audience in the first movie, he or she may not get a second chance to do so. Presumably if Greg W had thought he could just retell "Awakening" pretty much as it is in the show, he and...Michael Reaves, wasn't it?...wouldn't have written a new treatment for the live-action film.

And personally, I think the first movie should cover all of the Goliath's character arc from the whole first season. It's not enough to get him and the rest of the clan to the point where they're surviving in the strange new world they find themselves in; the audience needs to know by the end of the first film that these guys are heroes and protectors. That's not to say that I think the film should tell every story from season one. It just needs to get the gargoyles to the point they're at when season one ends.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

R is "Restricted - Under 18 not admitted without parent or guardian." NC-17 is what "X" used to be, minors not admitted at all. It's exceedingly rare for anyone to want their film to be rated NC-17 because teenagers bring in a lot of ticket sales. Directors will cut to get it to R and release the "unrated" version on the DVD.

I don't quite understand the "not enough screen time" issue, though. If the animated "Awakenings" could cover all it needed to cover in just five episodes totaling a running time of around two hours, why on earth could a live action film not be kept to between two and two and a half?

Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

@ Ed: Not too sound too blad, but this already sounds a damn lot like the series itself.

The problem is, that the first film might be "only" 2 hours long. 2 hours to tell the backstory, to introduce characters, to establish characters and to establish a message.

Look at THE DRAK KNIGHT. The film is EXTREMELY fast paced, the cuts are very short. There's almost not 1 second of silent screentime after a dialogue - it cuts right away. And with all that fast pace, it still took the film over 2 hours to establish and tell all that.

You'd have to introduce the clan, Demona, Xanatos, Fox, cover a long amount of time and ground.

And I SERIOUSLY don't want that film to become a corresponding piece to Spiderman 3, which might have please some fanboys, yet also felt like the screenwriters making checkmarks. "Establishing a character, check. Introducing a villain, check! Killing a villain, check. A villain turning good, check! Romance, check!"

It just doesn't add up to something homogenic in most ways.

So, for an example, if you want to introduce the clan pre-massacre, then you've got at least 1 hour to cover all the ground, including the massacre and the aftermath. So you'd still have 1 hour left for 3 villain, a romance, dialogue and action.

Which is why, IMHO, the series could never be transferred "as is" to the screen.

Also, I'd see a problem with repetition in multiple films. For example, if Demona is introduced and laid out as a villain in part 1, with part 2 ttelling the orrigins, it might feel like adding to much to a character that was already established.
Ist imagine if Ra's came back after BATMAN BEGINS and TDK centering on flashback of his orrigins.
Sure, it would kick ass to it, for all fans. Damn, I'd LOVE to see her backstory as a film!! But I think that, on a larger scope, it would be REALLY easy to turn into a very... not well handled script, and result in an underwhelming film.

I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

The American ratings always confuse me. R is like the old X I take it? Of course I'm used to it, but I still think the UK system is much more intuitive -- "12" means 12 and up, "15" means 15 and up, "18" means 18 and up. Some films are "12A" -- 12 unless accompanied by an adult. I thought that was getting a bit complicated.

"12", which I guess is "PG-13", seems the obvious fit. Any higher and you're eating up a lot of your potential audience. Plus, I understand some American cinemas don't like showing adult films. Any lower and you risk people writing it off as just a kids' film. I think a lot of the profit off the film would be from toys and merchandising so you'd definitely not want to aim it too high. (Then again, I remember when I was about seven or eight Terminator 2 came out and a friend of mine had T2 toys which seemed perplexing since there was no way either of us could, legally, see it in the cinema as it was a 15).

Siren: I think Angela's Avalon arc is great but you'd be looking at the film being a runaway hit spawning multiple sequels; and even then, is the Avalon story necessarily the one with the most juice in it for the cinema? More than any other multi-parter, it really feeds off being part of a serial, cobbling together elements from across the series. I think Goliath would feel parental towards Angela anyway. The bigger change to her character, I think, would be the loss of that naivete of having grown up in a virtual paradise.

Demonskrye: Trouble is, if the heart of the series (and therefore the film) is Goliath/Elisa, how much time can a film really spend in the Dark Ages? I think you need some supporting gargoyles -- otherwise, the basic facts that drove Goliath to suicide haven't changed -- but you need few enough to be able to develop. Your concept about Desdemona being alive while Othello and Iago share a body is fascinating though (though I think Coldstone is the least interesting of the recurring antagonists.) Would Goliath having a sibling-figure take away from his relationship with Elisa though?

My dream scenario would be something like this; a film trilogy, each film tackling a major theme of the show and a major villain.

Film 1: "Don't judge a book by its cover". The massacre, the spell, the awakening, but instead of Demona and the Steel Clan, you'd get a much more intense focus on Elisa and Xanatos, part of a sprawling, Xanatosian trickster epic. Elisa would have to be a proper detective (as in "Her Brother's Keeper"). Fox would be a secondary villain and with David would give us the big silver screen romance. Goliath would learn the "don't judge a book" lesson himself; Elisa opening his eyes to the beauty of New York, Xanatos dazzling him with misdirections and distractions. All the best Xanatos material would be on the table: "I'd fire you if you did", "He's the most brilliant man alive", "Revenge, as they say, is a sucker's game; true love is so much harder to come by", the end of "The Edge" and "Marry Me" etc. Perhaps have Coldstone in place of the Steel Clan, but probably some hint towards Xanatos' other plans for creating his own gargoyles -- Steel Clan models, mutate experiments, clone embryos. Ultimately, Goliath would take up lodging in the Clock Tower and you'd get the declaration of Manhattan as his new protectorate -- an essential moment I think.

Film 2: "What price vengeance?", the story of Demona told in one near-3 hour epic. The series dined out on vengeance regularly from lots of different angles, but a film is a different beast. You want a definitive statement. So in flashbacks we'd see Demona from "What have I... what have they done to you?", Gillecomgain, the rise and fall of the Demona/Macbeth partnership, the vendetta of the Hunters up to the death of Charles Canmore. In the present we'd have Demona returning to Goliath but her hateful agenda driving a wedge in the clan (echoes of "Temptation"), the revelation of her "City of Stone" style design for the world, the arrival of the Hunters as the situation worsens and Goliath's own flirtation with vengeance, and the climax at St Damien's where the praying gargoyle is destroyed and the gargoyle race is rendered no longer immune from her own spell. Separately, Demona's arrival would give Elisa a wake-up call and there'd be her crusading new partner Jason. At the end, you'd have Macbeth's confrontation with Demona, the revelation (as per "Awakening") that Demona conspired with the Captain and is partly an architect of the clan's demise, and Jon's own "What have I... what have they done to you?" At the end, Xanatos would restore the clan to their home out of thanks for saving his city, his wife and his son, and we'd see the Quarrymen gathering in mobs as a parallel to the mobs that gathered in Wyvern all those years ago. A bit involved but a proper multi-generational epic -- aspiring more to the sweep of "Once Upon A Time in America" or "The Godfather Part II" than any other pop superhero movie. And frankly... the idea of a Dark Age grudge bringing blood and fire upon New York and the world has never been more relevant.

Film 3: "We're not the last. We're not alone". Hope. New clans "coming out". New generations (Thailog). Maybe a bigger scope than before, covering the years until Goliath's death. Of course, this would cover stories Greg hasn't told yet.


Sorry for the late update, but MGC is finally updated for July! New topic for this month and of course voting for June's topic runs now through July 18th (extended due to the late update.) ^_^
kess - [< FINALLY updated!]

@ Demonskrye: Traumataising young kids - F*** the kids, this is rated R!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

(And, c'mon, THE DARK KNIGHT was rated PG 13, and it was pretty graphic, not to say gory)

I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

I'm still sitting on the treatment I wanted to do for fun.

Before I post details, a little disclaimer: I do this FOR FUN!!! I regard it as fan-fic, something to better my scriptwriting skills and have fun.

And, just to show that it can be handled different, some info:

- there are no Wikings!! The attackers are actually people which were driven away from the castle by fear of the Gargoyles - some of them "racists", but other fueled in their hate by some of the clans occasional mobbing.

- the attack on the castle is caused by the death of one of this reclusive group, which the group believes to be caused by a Gargoyle as a hate-crime.

- The Trio does survive, but under very different circumstances.

- Both Demona and Coldstone are included. Coldstones different "souls" are handled quite... well, different though. Without spoiling too much, they're more homogenic than heterogenic like in the series.

- Xanatos has no ponytail. *gasp* And he's a descendant of a Scottish family. *Zomfggasp* But yeah, his name is still Xanatos... phonetically... *gaspbwarf*

- Goliath is pretty much the person we know, but he's even more brooding and much more grim. He is both leader, protagonist AND anti-hero. He's close to the orriginal, but I thought about how interresting it would to be to give him a "new edge" (THE DARK KNIGHT SPOILER -- sort of how the Nolan brothers added the Joker killing SPOILERPOILERSPOILERRACHELENDSPOILER (END SPOILER) to piss off Harvey Dent). I hope it works out.
Goliath definetely has to make some much, much more complicated decisions regarding his clan and his own life.

- No Angela, but Dereck!!

- NOT Awakening 2.0!! The film deals a lot more with identity loss than culture clash, more with alienation than integration.

Again, remember, this is me trying to have fun and do something to have fun with, testing my skills in writing and adapting source material. So, please, don't be pissed for the changes. Just trying to make things work.

I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

Gargoyles movie> I'd be perfectly content with the only female characters being Demona and Elisa. If they added a female, I'd hate to see Broadway replaces with Coco. I love Coco, but Broadway is part of the original group. I'd want to have that stay intact. And I don't know about adding Angela so early with the movie because the great dynamic to Angela and Goliath was for Goliath to discover his and Demona's egg survived and Angela's instance as calling him "father". I like the Desdemona idea because even if she was killed in modern times, they could still use her to made Coldstone for a later movie.

Gargoyles Movie> I agree that it might be a bit of an issue that the only female gargoyle in a potential movie based on "Awakening" would be "evil." But I think there are other workarounds aside from having Angela be part of the Manhattan Clan from the start:

- Build up some of the female gargoyles in the Wyvern Clan before the massacre. Since this movie would presumably be aimed at a somewhat older audience, I think it would be a good idea to focus on more of the individuals who actually died in the Wyvern Massacre. The audience will feel the tragedy of the event more acutely and you don't have to worry too much about traumatizing young kids. Spend some time developing Desdemona. Introduce us to Hyppolyta. Maybe Hudson's mate lives a bit longer in the movie version?

- Desdemona is one of the Wyvern Clan survivors and ends up in 20th century Manhattan along with the others. She could either be killed - showing that the gargoyles are in just as much danger in modern times as they were in the past and opening the door for her to be resurrected as ColdFire - or she could survive, in which case the poignancy of Coldstone would be that he did survive in a way, but only she is truly alive while he is stuck in this cyborg corpse along with the spirit of his scheming brother, still preventing Othello and Desdemona from truly being together.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Baygoleys: I'd be happy that it gets so much cleavage. More sub-skirt shots of Demona than a Japanese girl-secret-agent-anime-fan could handle. Yayzoo!!

Also, the Trio would be degraded to 3 racial stereotypes. Broadway = fun/food loving and black, Brooklyn = girl lovin Latino, Lex = gay asian, with Bay hinting at Gregs ambitions to create diverse Gargoyles. Yayzoo even more!!

As for ROBOCOP: Aronofsky is doing it.


Well, that's enough to already make it a masterpiece.
Nolan and Aronofsky are atm the only two male american directors who can turn any source material into a masterpiece.
And, well, Nolans INSOMNIA is another case. The orriginal was good, btu a bit bland, and almost too gritty for grittyness (Cop stares at kittens, Cop says "They're ugly!!" etc.), whilst Nolans version introduced another psychollogical layer to the story. Plus, Robin Williams is a badass!!

I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

"Hm, suppose a Gargoyles movie is in the works and we find out it will be directed by Michael Bay."

I'd get ready to see the Elisa Maza action figure finally become canon when Salli Richardson straps on rocket-wing jetpack that fires rockets that lead to many scenes of large explosions. Oh, and maybe there'd be something about gargoyles in there. Michael Bay's explosions tend to have movies.

47 days left until the 13th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles in Los Angeles, CA!

Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Todd: Sure, but I should make clear I was specifically talking about gargoyles. Since the franchise is called 'gargoyles'.

First time I've checked in here in many, many months, basically thinking that the '09 Gathering had occurred and I would find out where the '10 Gathering would be. Lo and behold, I come to find out that this will be the last one for the foreseeable future. After spending the last 2+ hrs reading through this and last week's CR, I decided to stroll down memory lane and sum up my feelings regarding the Gatherings.

My reaction to this year being the last was pretty much: "Eh. Really?" I attended five of the Gatherings over the years.
I did actually go to the first one in '97. It was pretty much just an excuse to get a small group of us (maybe 10 people) who regularly chatted together in the S8 chat room. I had a blast. It was all about just hanging out with everyone I'd been chatting with at 2 or 3am while procrastinating on some homework back in college. I think the only guest was Greg, with Keith David originally slated to be there only to have something come up where he wouldn't be able to make it, followed by the (I'm going out on a limb here) most memorable moment in all the Gatherings. Other than the Masquerade and tour of various locations from the show, I can't even remember if there were any scheduled events.

The next one I attended was in Orlando (2000) (I even submitted a t-shirt design for it). I believe that the fact that I pretty much sleepwalked through the event, due to just starting a new job (not having any PTO accrued to take any time off) and basically just flying to Orlando right after work, made it a bad experience. I can't remember a thing about the event other than the flooded motel rooms. Plus I had stopped chatting at that time, and didn't really get online then so I basically knew no one there.

At that point, my interest in the show pretty much disappeared and I had moved on to other things, like anime (which having one of the largest Anime Clubs in the US in my backyard made it pretty easy to get into). I also got the baseball bug in '02 and started my quest to go to every stadium, a handful of parks per year, which used up my vacation time. I happened to revisit S8 in late '04 after a couple years' absence and found out I was in Montreal something like a week after the Gathering. I don't remember what it was, but something resparked my interest in the show because I then went to the next three Gatherings. I just made it a point to schedule my baseball trips around the Gathering.

When I went to the one in Vegas (which I had a lot of fun at), it had expanded to four days, and I was wondering what in the world could possibly fill up FOUR days, what with there having been almost 10 years with absolutely nothing new added to the franchise.

The main reason I went to the '06 Gathering in LA was that Mae said she would definitely be there. There was even some talk that a few of the people from the original chat group that started this whole thing would be there, but alas, Mae was the only one.

The last one I attended was in Pigeon Forge the next year, and I really had zero interest in pretty much all the panels.

Someone mentioned something about the possible objection to cutting anything out. To me, I'm amazed that there can be enough material to fill out FOUR days. Two days seemed perfect to me.

As for the actual show, the only time I've watched any episodes in the last 6 or 7 years were when the DVD's came out. I'll be one of the first to order the S2V2 and TGC DVD's if they ever release them (and I WILL buy a TGC release). With the amount of shows that have made it to the shiny format, I'm rather shocked that a full series thinset or SOME kind of release of the entire series hasn't happened. Even a barebones set would suffice.

As for the comics, I don't like the comic book format at all. I stopped buying the main series after five issues (and none of the other series) mainly because of this.

Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury

ED - Wouldn't there be two female characters, even without Angela? Elisa would still be there (obviously, since her role is crucial as the clan's modern-day friend and ally).
Todd Jensen

KingCobra: Surely it depends if the first movie was good as to whether remaking it would be a bad thing? And in any event, the films are more a promotional tool than anything.

Here's a discussion point linking together two threads from this week.

I've sometimes thought that if there's a 'Gargoyles' movie, the only female character is a villain (if she even appears). In 1994 for a show primary aimed at young boys it was something Greg tried to correct with Angela but a film would be unlikely to get two or three sequels' grace to bring Angela into it and I wonder if it would be a smart move -- both creatively and financially, to broaden the appeal, to change this in the adaptation.

The logical fix is to have Angela as one of the Wyvern survivors. She's still a daughter to Demona in the sense that all the younger rookeries are. She's not raised by humans but you can easily buy that she had developed close ties with humans because of her nature; the opposite of Demona who sought out the likes of the Archmage.

Trouble is, you get a different dynamic with the reawakened clan. There's a particular "The Three Musketeers" bond the brothers have which is necessarily different with Angela along. It worked in "Turf" but that came late in the series, and a movie wouldn't have much time to go into the younger gargoyles anyway.

But if Broadway is 'turned back' into Coco, as per the comedy development, then you have two boys and two girls. The Trio becomes the Quartet, the Three Musketeers becomes the Four Musketeers. You get balance in the names: the boys pick modern names Brooklyn and Lexington, whereas the girls stick with the traditional Constance and Angela.

In the event that the film did get a number of sequels I guess it would force the films to diverge progressively more from the series as time went by, but then there's so much material to draw from and the films can afford to be their own animal anyway.

So what changes would you make to adapt the show for the cinema screens?


The same I did with Bayformers.
Ignore it where ever possible.


Hm, suppose a Gargoyles movie is in the works and we find out it will be directed by Michael Bay.

What would you do?

Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1 at sbcglobal dot net]
Chuck Norris has never been denied anything. NOT EVEN REVENGE!!!

Remakes> Imagine if there was a Gargoyles movie. Now imagine that, a few years down the line, Hollywood decided to remake it.

Oddly, enough, though it would be a terrible idea, it also wouldn't be unexpected. Not by the standards of the current trend in cinema.

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

4-H? Wow, small world. I was a real champ at poultry judging and insect identification.

i don't get why they have to remake good movies. i can under stand remaking a bad movie because maybe the idea was good. best remake john carpenter's the thing. but i hear there even going to remake that.in sted of remaing films they should re-release them in the theaters.

@ jadegriffin- i raised pigs for 4-h

Matt T. - [mattstewto at yahoo dot com]

Remaking per se isn't a bad idea. I think there are a few solid reasons for doing so.

1. When it was adapted material in the first place, and you can do a better job. The new "Charlotte's Web" and "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory". The Nolan Batman (not a remake technically, but still). These had source material or concepts which perhaps hadn't been realised. Hitchcock's "Rebecca" is one of my all-time favourite films but I don't know how close it is to the book and I think it's fair for someone else to take another crack. There are a whole bunch of things I'd like to see remade in this vein. Spider-Man, Lord of the Rings... But even the truly magnificent films I think have room for different versions. I love "The Shining" but apparently Stephen King hated it and since then there's been an adaptation that's closer to his original material. That's fine.

2. To do a better or fresh take on a good concept. And here's where Hollywood seems to go wrong. They mistake good execution for good concept. Take "The Birds". Terrible, terrible, concept. To the extent that it works at all, it's because it's amazingly executed. And there are films with both great concept and great execution but it's the quality of the concept that you really need to discern; and then whether something fresh and excellent can be done with it. Someone may have a fresh insight into "The Godfather". People are still having fresh insights into "Macbeth". But a play is a text which needs animation and interpretation to live whereas a film is a different, more closed, medium. Much bigger challenge.

But where the original missed the mark, or just never soared that high? "Battlestar Galactica" is an obvious success story. "The Fly" is better remembered now for the remake.

I think there are plenty of films which have potential but which didn't nail it. I wouldn't mind a decent stab at "Nightmare on Elm Street". As a kid, the character of Freddy fascinated me as a still image on a VHS cover but watching the films when I was older, I felt disappointed that it never transcended the teen slasher genre to really capture what I felt at the time. I don't know that there's an appetite to evolve the character past the slasher stuff into more of the mythic bogeyman character I saw him as, but I hope someone one day will. But of course, the original was still a success. Nobody's lining up to remake "Waterworld" or "Titan AE" which is a pity because both had cool concepts. I thought the Singer Superman set an interesting precedent. If James Cameron ever was minded to make it, I'd love a remake of Terminator 3.

3. When the fact of remaking makes for a different kind of story. Trying to remake "The Office" should have been near-suicidally stupid but it worked because the American workplace is fundamentally different from the British one and both can co-exist and complement each other as comments on their societies. "You've Got Mail" was fundamentally different for being in a different time period.

That's why I have some optimism for Robocop. Robocop was a satire of 80s policing. A 00s/10s satire will naturally be different and it would be interesting to see how that works.

Of course, while there are many good reasons for rebooting, the simple truth is that it's playing safe. It's not generally motivated by creative considerations at all.

It's disappointing now with the crunch that it seems like the entire cinema catalogue of the 80s is primed to be remade or rebooted or revived. And looking back at all those 80s properties -- Rambo, Die Hard, Terminator, Robocop, Indiana Jones, Nightmare on Elm Street, Predator, Alien etc. etc. -- some of them are hit and some of them are miss but there's a lot of big pop concepts that were fresh and new and that's pretty nifty.

Where are the new 00s properties that are going to merit sequelisation? Where are the new sprawling franchises? Discounting comic superheroes (who have been independently famous for decades) and Pixar who are doing it right, I really struggle to find big pop culture icons that the 2020s will feel thankful to films of the 00s for. "Pirates of the Carribean". "Cloverfield". A couple of ghastly torture porn concepts. "Night at the Museum" at the outside? "Shrek" maybe sneaks in. Slim pickings.


Oh, I didn't mean it was only the fanboys who didn't like it. By far, it is a weak movie, but I still enjoyed it, for the most part. I wished the Twins were blown up. I was rooting for that big sandsucking Decepticon to see if they blend, but alas, it didn't happen. But then the one comedic character I did like, Wheelie, just disappears mid-movie. No idea where he went. He was just gone. He explained what they wanted to know and that was it. No mention of him again. I rather he stuck around than those Twins. And it wasn't because they were stereotypical that I didn't like them, they were just annoying as f***. But the battle scenes were cool and such. I saw it in IMAX, so it was worth it. I'll buy the DVD. I just found it to be numbing mindless entertainment, but it was still entertaining. And I guess that was the point.

PATRICK - D, kind of. Only John Hancock actually signed the Declaration of Independence; most of the Second Continental Congress waited until August 2 to sign it, and a few took longer than that. (Robert Livingston, who was on the committee to write the Declaration - though he let Thomas Jefferson do the writing - never even got around to signing it.)

And (as Greg Weisman once pointed out correctly in his "Today in the Gargoyles Universe" feature at "Ask Greg") Congress voted for independence on July 2, two days earlier (John Adams was convinced that that would be the day for the great anniversary celebrations). July 4 was when they okayed the final draft of the Declaration, which had spent two days going through Edits.

Todd Jensen

Hi guys!

The Gathering of the Gargoyles Online Auction continues with a Magneto ACEO by CK Russel, a print of a sexy Gargoyles fan character by Mary Caldera, and a commission by yours truly.

Go see and bid! http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/gargoyles-convention

All proceeds go to the Gathering, of course. http://www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com/g2009/

Karine "Kanthara" Charlebois
I kick ass and take names.

You forgot Brett Rattners plans on a CITIZEN KANE remake.

(I'm joking)

Personally, the worst case of remaking has been (REC) - the film was 4 months old when they finished the remake, and both entered US theaters at the same time. Oh, and for those who've never heard of it, it is a spanish film that adapts the BLAR WITCH/CLOVERFIELD idea of fake-footage. Pretty bland to try to remake that...

I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

Well, there are a few sacred cows in Hollywood.

You do not re-make Hitchcock
You do not re-make Casablanca
You do not re-make The Godfather

But, Hitchcock has been re-made and give them time with the other two. It will happen.

Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]

@ Demonskrye: Apparently, they bought the rights and were looking for a director to helm the remake. Van Sant told them he'd only agre IF he could do an exact shot-to-shot remake in color and with the actors he'd choose.

The studio agreed.

Now, if you look at some of the worse remakes of 70s and European/Asian horrorfilms of the last few years, you pretty much get a taste of what a different director might have done with Psycho.

Oh, and watch the orriginal. By far one of the best films ever made (although VERTIGO is my favourite Hitchcock).

I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

But, Bay does make for some great parodies.

This is the greatest video on YouTube!


I know that area quite well. I used to go to school right across the street from the Cinerama Dome.

Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]

I wasn't aware that there was a "Psycho" remake grenade in danger of hitting some other director had Gus Van Sant not jumped on it for us.

Now to be fair, I've never seen the film (and I also haven't gotten around to watching the original "Psycho" yet), but a shot-for-shot, accurate down to the second remake of a great film sounds to me more like something you should do in film school or as a personal project. From quotes I read from Van Sant at the time, he was doing in it part to get a firsthand idea of why Hitchcock made the choices that he did. But I don't see the reasoning in releasing the result of such an experiment to the public.

For the record, I did like "Bad Boys" and I think Bay's films were better when he was working on a smaller scale without the delusions of grandeur he seems to have now and the budgets to create ridiculously over the top special effects.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Yup... this here sums the man up.


In about a minute, you've just seen every Michael Bay movie ever made.

All spectacle and no substance.

Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]

Gus Van Sant on PSYCHO: "I did it, so nobody else had to."

I agree with you, Bishansky, except for one thing: THE ISLAND was actually an OK film,a nd by far his best. OK, the story was stolen off of various Philip K Dick novels, and mostly it might have been due to all the great actors in the film (even though some were underacting), but I thought the film was 7/10, at least 6/10, whilst every other Bay film (including both Transformers) was rather 2-4/10. ;)

I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

Greg B>" Get this... he thinks he can improve on Alfred Hitchcock. He's re-making "The Birds." Um... no. Just... no."

I blame Gus Van Sant for setting the precedent.

Constance> I don't know that it makes a lot of sense to argue that she "just happens to be boar-like." She is a fictional character, she was envisioned as a boar by Greg Weisman, and I'm pretty sure he didn't just pull heraldic animals out of a hat when deciding what Coco and Amp would look like. Do I think Greg made her boar-like because of the association between pigs and overweight people? No. Judging by how concerned he and the other writers on the show were about the jokes about Broadway's weight going too far after a point, I doubt he'd go for that kind of cheap laugh. I think he was looking at some of the more positive traits associated with boar, such as their fierce fighting ability and other qualities they represent in heraldry. (I seem to remember reading that one of them is steadfastness, which could also be called "constancy.") I think he did want to make a large, full-figured female gargoyle and the boar feature fit well with that body type. Maybe the potential negative connection between "pig" and "overweight person" crossed his mind and maybe he decided that the positives of having Coco look the way she does outweighed the potential negatives. I don't know.

I can see why people might feel a little uncomfortable with the first female gargoyle we've seen who is not slender also having porcine features. But i don't think any harm was intended and I think as we learn more about Coco, it won't matter so much. And again, I hope that we are going to see a lot more different female gargoyle body types as we meet more gargoyles and more clans so Coco won't stand out so much as the one heavyset female gargoyle, who also happens to look like a pig.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Movies> "Get this... he thinks he can improve on Alfred Hitchcock. He's re-making "The Birds." Um... no. Just... no."

For once, I side with Greg B. on something. Remake 'The Birds'?! God.

Why is with all the remakes we keep getting?! Psycho, Friday The 13th, TCM, etc. Where has Hollywood's creativity gone?

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

SIREN> <<But I can see why fanboys are up in arms about some of it.>>

See, I didn't like it, not for fanboy reasons, but because, well... it was a clusterf--k of a movie. So was the first one... but this one took everything wrong with the first and kicked it up. At least the first attempted some sort of narrative.

And this is nothing new, I disliked Michael Bay and his movies long before "Transformers" came out. Do I care that changes were made? Not particularly... there are so many tellings and re-tellings of it that I am used to changes. You had the original comics, the original cartoon, Beast Wars (which is a sequel to both the cartoon and the comics), the Dreamwave comics, the IDW comics, Animated, not to mention the UK and Japanese tellings. There are so many different universes here, it's crazy.

Personally, I preferred, in this order, Beast Wars, Animated, Simon Furman's G1 comics... the rest was mostly crap.

But, back to Michael Bay. I did not like "Bad Boys," I did not like "The Rock," I did not like "Armageddon," ... "Pearl Harbor" was inexcusable (I got suckered into seeing that one).

And on top of being a lousy director, he has an ego the size of Jupiter. I mean... he's the Kanye West of the movie world. Get this... he thinks he can improve on Alfred Hitchcock. He's re-making "The Birds." Um... no. Just... no.

I'll never forget this. A couple of years ago, I went to a showing of "The Birds" at the Cinerama Dome in Hollywood, and Hitchcock's daughter was there to give the introduction, and she said this "Some horrible, arrogant hacks, who I will not be naming, think they can improve upon my father's work."

Now, egos and arrogance in Hollywood are nothing new... but Bay seems to have a gift for pissing people off and alienating them. There are a lot of people in this town who won't work with him.

Now, if he made good movies, I'd overlook all that. God knows, Orson Welles was... difficult. But Orson Welles was brilliant. Bay isn't.

Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]

****Two Blaises enter through opposite doors. One Blaise is doing a little happy dance, the other looks depressed and stressed. They meet in the middle of the Room and merge into one calm body.**** Hi again, and Happy (U.S.A.) Independence Day! I already kind of celebrated this yesterday among friends watching a movie marathon ("pulp hero movies of the '90s" like "The Phantom," "The Rocketeer," "The Shadow," and "The Mask of Zorro"). Today will probably be a bit quieter.

I'm a bit up and down on the roller coaster of life right now. On the one hand, the temp job that was supposed to last all summer let me go on Thursday (won't go into details, but my largest gripes are why and how it was done). This, of course, wreaks any budgeting I had planned. In spite of this, my intent to pay for a full package for the Gathering on the 4th of July weekend remained. And that is just what I did.
-strikes dramatic pose as music wells up-
-drops pose and music cuts out-

CONSTANCE> I remember showing issue #7 to my mother when I visited Oregon back in Christmas of 2007, and indicating to her that here, finally, was a "stout" gargoyle female. Her reaction?
"Yeah, they make a female who's heavy and *what does she look like*? A PIG!"
So, yeah I can understand the...objection (though, to be fair, my mom said it in a half-joking way). And I figured she wouldn't be the only one to have that reaction (joking or not). But from a purely aesthetic point of view (and, let's face it, that tends to trump most other considerations in any entertainment medium), I just can't see her looking any other way. And she's a fun enough character that her physical appearance largely ceases to be a consideration for me.

Until next time! ****Blaise splits once more into his happy/stressed selves, who then leave by the doors opposite those they entered.****


One-question history quiz. Today, Americans celebrate...

A) The invention of fireworks by medieval Chinese sweatshop workers.
B) That time Wil Smith and Jeff Goldblum saved the planet from alien invasion.
C) Our obsession with meat cooked in the backyard over an open fire.
D) The signing of the Declaration of Independence.

Happy 4th of July!

48 days left until the 13th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles in Los Angeles, CA!

Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Siren> Well, it's not just the fanboys, and though you may not have intended it that way, I do want to make it clear that neither my husband nor my friend who also saw the movie were complaining about fanboy stuff like Bumblebee not being a Beetle or the truck flames on Prime or whatever. (I know those were both issues from the first film, but since I haven't seen the second one, I don't know many of the "This isn't exactly like the source material" gripes specific to it.) I think they still would have hated it even if it had been called something other than "Transformers." Most of their complaints were about it being boring and not making sense and the racism and sexism. The most fanish complaint I heard out of my husband was that Optimus Prime was portrayed as someone who would execute an incapacitated Decepticon, rather than the idealistic leader he's been shown as in past stories.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

I posted a question a few days ago and I wanted to say thank you to all that responded.
Lurker - [johnr783 at hotmail dot com]
I have officially lost my namesake.

Did you see that interview of Megan Fox on Yahoo talking about all the terrible physical labor she had to go through for this movies...."Running in sand, in tight white pants...and motorcycle boots."

You poor poor dear...

I gotta say this movie did ruin her character...She suddenly went from a bad ass, independent chick to "say you love me". And WTF was that whole thing about her getting all dressed in the white dress and flowers?

Now I DID enjoy the movie. Sure, the story was weaker and the humor at times was over the top, but I still enjoyed it :P But I can see why fanboys are up in arms about some of it.


Oy, first time I've been to the room since Tuesday before last. Happy Fourth of July, everybody! (Since we all know Independence Day was two days ago.)

Real post either tomorrow after the fireworks, or Sunday, whichever comes first.

"What if this wasn't a hypothetical question?"

Oy, first time I've been to the room since Tuesday before last. Happy Fourth of July, everybody! (Since we all know Independence Day was two days ago.)

Real post either tomorrow after the fireworks, or Sunday, whichever comes first.

"What if this wasn't a hypothetical question?"

Greg B.> While I don't often agree with you, you are TOTALLY right about Michael Bay. And Megan Fox? Come on, she isn't THAT good looking.

Lets not forget Nic Cage was in "Moonstruck" and "Valley Girl."

I could have written a better Transformers film in about a day and it would ahve been a critical success. Why? Because I am a FAN of the series, something Spielberg and Bay ARE NOT.


battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

Sorry for the double...and double off-topic, no less. I found this great article online. If anyone loves stories about medical breakthroughs as much as I do, you'll enjoy this.



What is everyone's 4th of July plans?

I don't know if I'm going to do anything. The people that I would have hung out with are out of town, so I might not celebrate this year.


I was buying the Wonderland issues along with the Gargoyles and Bad Guys comics. I really liked it. I'll have to look for the trade.
Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Wonderland> I have a copy of the trade, and I thoroughly enjoyed. I was very happy when it was finally collected because I really enjoyed the first handful of issues I was able to get. It does include a little more of the "Wonderland" novel, which is fun if you know it, and I adored Mary Ann.

When I was at the library today, I discovered the graphic novel "Wonderland", a collection of all the issues of the "Wonderland" mini-series that Slave Labor Graphics did as part of its deal with Disney (one of the other Disney-based series that it did besides "Gargoyles"). I checked the catalogue to see if the library had the first "Gargoyles" trade paperback as well (just out of curiosity; I bought it when it came out last year), but it didn't; it only had the DVDs.

The "Wonderland" graphic novel was enjoyable, though. It's a sequel to "Alice in Wonderland", about the consequences of Alice's visit (the Queen of Hearts is still fuming about all the trouble that Alice caused while there, and is looking for someone to take the blame - she quickly decides upon the White Rabbit and is after him). The main character is Mary Ann, the White Rabbit's housemaid (whom the Rabbit mistook Alice for in both the movie and the original book by Lewis Carroll), who seems to be an alter ego of Alice, though a complete character in her own right (largely more sane than most of the inhabitants of Wonderland, though she has her own quirk; she has a phenomenal aversion for untidiness and will go to great lengths to clean up every mess she comes across). It includes some elements from Lewis Carroll's books that didn't make it into the movie (such as the Duchess and the treacle well), as well as a few new concepts (such as what became of the kings and queens from the other three suits in cards - i.e., Spades, Diamonds, and Clubs - let's just say that the Queen of Hearts doesn't want any rival monarchs about). I recommend it to the comment room.

Todd Jensen

Gathering Guests> *whine* Stupid economy. I really, really want to go and meet Bill Fagerbakke, and meet up with Jen, Karine, and Mara again. And we keep getting more and more people! This sucks! *whines into the table*

Okay, whining done. I think, negatives already discussed and not to be brought up again aside, this is turning out to be an awesome con. So many people to see and meet.

BTW, when is Blue Mug Productions updating again?



Good news, that. I mean, that there are so many guets and flyers. :)

I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

I just got the following e-mail from a buddy on the staff of CONvergence (http://www.convergence-con.org/), which is taking place NOW:

Hi Greg!

I'm at CONvergence, and I am seeing flyers all over the hotel
advertising for the Gathering. They are having over 40 guests? Wow!


So thanks to those posting our flyers at ConVergence (my second all-time favorite convention). Have a great con!

But don't miss the Gathering, which as of yesterday actually has OVER FIFTY GUESTS attending! Fifty and counting. Soon the guests will outnumber the fans. ( And, dude, I wish I was kidding.) You will NEVER find a better fan to pro ratio at any convention ANYWHERE, ANYTIME!!!! Sign up now at http://www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com/g2009/ !!!!!

Greg Weisman
<<THE GATHERING OF THE GARGOYLES - Over Fifty Special Guests and Counting...

THE SCOPE? Of course I meant THE SCORE...

Ah, damn, I shouldn't post that late at night... ;)

I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

@ Rebel: True dat...

But again, I think most of us agree on the fact that her appearance isn't meant to be off-putting, but rather a well-tied package. She ain't "the ugly one" or the "fat one" or the "masculine girl" - I think she's just another Gargoyles in the London clan resembling an animal.

@ Greg B: "If this weren't Hollywood, she'd have been fired."

I'd argue quite the other way around. For example, one actor of the cast of IRON MAN was fired, because he made some pretty bland remarks (from what I remember).
I think Fox did good in speaking up, because, even IF she is really dumb, it does sets some things straight, especially with how she wants to be looked upon.
Scarlett Johansson, for example, argued that she's played in THE OTHER BOYLEAN GIRL only to play alongside Natalie Portman, and Ed Norton did some pretty... rude remarks for the promotion of THE SCOPE, that he only did it cause of the possibillity to play alongside DeNiro and Brando.
Even if it was a stupid move for her, it was a clever one, that draws attention. Plus, it made Bay make a pretty stupid statement in return, so it can#t be THAT bad. ;)

I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

Purplegoldfish: Yeah, I know you don't go looking for stereotypes. I was making a general statement. I'm just honestly confused as to why you think Coco's design is problematic. I think it's awesome. :P
D. Taina
RIP, Michael Jackson.

Heh, well I guess I'm alone in this. Honestly I don 't think I have any more to add either. I think the real problem here is that we haven't seen enough differing body types on female gargoyles. I'm not offended by Coco, and truth be told I kind of like her design. I just don't like that she's the only full figured female we've seen-and out of all designs that could have been chosen for her-she resembles a pig.

Dtaina: I don't ever go looking for stereotypes. I guess you could say they go looking for me. Looking at her picture recently triggered this feeling. And sometimes it's okay to be politically correct.

Anyway, I think I'll bring the subject up to Greg-in the nicest way possible. I'm not trying to be a pest, I honestly want to know what he thinks.


A big theme of gargoyles is that they look grotesque but you shouldn't judge a book by its cover. Having Coco be unattractive by all standard human measurements and yet still be a great character plays into that message more than if she more closely resembled a lion or a griffin or another creature.

It also strikes me that obesity is fairly rare in the gargoyles anyway. Broadway's an exception but I'm struggling to think of too many others in a similar boat. They live action-packed lives. As a few people have observed, Coco's weight may owe more to genetics than indulgence.


I think I'll stay clear of this Constance/pig discussion as I have nothing more to add.

ANTIYONDER: Thanks for that article. I came away with two things, well, two things I already knew. Michael Bay is an arrogant hack, and Megan Fox is really, really, really stupid.

I saw Megan Fox on Letterman. She was talking about how she dropped out of High School but at the same time puffing herself up by talking about how it was because she didn't get along with authority figures and how she was top of her class in the correspondence class she took instead of High School. That's called a GED, dear, and it's not really something to brag about.

And, well, while I appreciate her honesty... her job now is to PROMOTE THE MOVIE! PROMOTE! If this weren't Hollywood, she'd have been fired.

She's not smart, and I personally don't find her particularly attractive. But, if most people didn't think she was hot, she'd be flipping burgers with just her GED.

As for Bay... You know what gets me the most? Michael Bay taking credit for these peoples' careers.

Will Smith was already a star. A TV star and a grammy award winning rapper. He had signed on for Independence Day well before "Bad Boys" was released. Martin Lawrence was already a star too. Bay did not launch their careers. If anything, those two launched him by agreeing to be in his first movie... before that, all he directed were music videos.

He definitely exaggerated about Nic Cage. Hell, Nic Cage won an Oscar before being in "The Rock." Not to mention little movies like "Raising Arizona." Ben Affleck got a lot of media attention thanks to "Good Will Hunting." A movie for which he won an Oscar.

As for Shia... I think we all know Spielberg is the one who's investing a lot into making him a star. "Disturbia" was a DreamWorks film... Spielberg owns DreamWorks. Spielberg produced "Transformers." Spielberg directed "Indiana Jones 4." Spielberg executive produced "Eagle Eye."

I'll give Bay this, he did make Megan Fox.

Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]

Brook> Well, muscle is heavier than fat, so...

Coco> Maybe I'm looking at this wrong, but surely when you want to turn a stereotype on its head, you have to at least acknowledge the stereotype?


Brook > That depends on which panel you're looking at. Hedgecock didn't draw her consistently. In the panel at the end of #7, I agree she doesn't really look fat. In that panel, she looks like she's just a bigger-boned girl with lots of muscle (almost like a female bodybuilder). But, in many of the panels in #8, she looks overweight to me, although she always looks really muscular as well.

Anyway, whether she's overweight or not, she most certainly is a "heavier" girl. She probably outweighs Angela/Demona/Una by a substantial amount, regardless of how much of that extra weight is lean body mass and how much is fat.

In thinking about it more, however, I think Coco's overall design does more good for the Gargoyles Universe than any harm her resemblance to a pig could do. It always irked me that male gargoyles had this huge range of appearances--some were hunky, some were tiny, some were cute, some were heavy, some were scrawny, some were unattractive, some had beaks, some had simian faces, some had huge under-bites, and so on and so forth. Although Ophelia does (arguably) introduce some diversity into female gargoyles (if you think she's unattractive, which I don't), all the rest of them fit the same basic model: thin, feminine, human-like, sexy. The only exception here is Una, but that's only because she's a member of the London clan and resembling animals is normal (and even despite her animal resemblance, she is still thin and feminine, and in my opinion, still sexy).

It would actually bother me MORE if there were males amongst the London clan who could be big, burly, and boar-ish, but the females only resembled aesthetically appealing animals and were always feminine and thin.


@ Rebel: But she isn'tvery heavy. She's more muscular/masculine, but definetely not "heavier" (or even fat).
I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

PGFish > "The point I'm trying to make is that I'm not happy that the only non hourglass figure female gargoyle we've seen resembles an animal that is frequently negatively associated with larger women."

I see your point, and I think I agree with you. Constance could have still been a heavy girl and looked like a different animal besides a pig/boar.


Purplegoldfish: I honestly don't understand your problem with this character. Coco kicks butt and is second-in-command of the London Clan. You'd think women of different body types would be happy that Coco gives them a good name. So, what if she looks like a pig? She's still awesome. That makes me happy anyway. Would you be happier if she didn't exist, or if she had a different look to her? Me, I love Coco the way she is and wouldn't have her any other way.

Can you imagine if Broadway had been Coco, as it was originally intended? People would still be arguing about it. We all lamented the fact that every female in the show had the same hourglass figure. Finally, Greg Weisman introduces Coco and people are offended. Now I understand why he changed Broadway's gender in the first place, and why all the females in the show look the way they do.

We all dislike people who believe in stereotypes. But I think it's just as bad when people look for stereotypes in everything so they can be offended. It's the reason everything has to be "politically correct" these days. People are taking it to extremes and it's only going to get worse if people insist on finding things to be offended about. I'm not saying that's you, of course. Just food for thought.

I think it's time to see this character in a different light. Coco's just a heavyset female gargoyle who happens to look like a pig/boar. No ulterior motive... no stereotype... and nothing sinister. That's all there is to it. ;)

D. Taina
RIP, Michael Jackson.

Purple> Oh really? heh. ^_^;; I'm a bit far behind in some of the 'latest' events with comics in the universe.. (my comic store wasn't getting my comics before the 'hault' happened) so I have been missing a few here and there. I saw it in the gargoyle wiki so I presumed it was revealed and I hadn't seen it (or Greg had mentioned it on Ask Greg?) Sorry for the accidental spoilers then. @.@;;

I can see your point of view, I just don't necessarily agree with it. :) Only again because as others have states, sometimes there is reasons behind character design.. especially in Greg's stories, and again, it's not what I personally saw. <:) (And lol I am insanely self conscience about my appearance/weight)

As for The London Gargoyles not fitting the standard 'gargoyle' look, it would really depend on what you perceive the standard gargoyle look to be? :) It is true, for the most part from the show we have had viewpoints three other clans, the Guatamalan clan, the Japanese clan, and the Wyvern/Manhattan clan which follow more of a humanoid look in design than animal one. :) BUT, we have _several_ clans not encountered that it could be that the humanoid-ish look is more of a rarity. (I mean, afterall, Zafiro isn't humanoid looking (arguably)?)

Also, while Raven's 'clan' was NOT based off of African American Gargoyles in general.. it had Goliath fooled enough to presume that gargoyles with animalistic traits exist/are common in the genepool.

I will agree, I think Una and Stagheart are too 'lanky' for my tastes and that's something I don't particularly like with their designs, but again, I honestly didn't really see the correlation between animal stereotypes and the London clans designs until you brought it up. :) (Wouldn't mind a burly stock horse either, since actually, most heraldry depicts unicorns as 'stocky'. (It's the tapestry pictures etc that make them gangly thin... but then again, tapestry pictures make ALL their subjects gangly thin. XD)

Still, interesting conversation, even if we disagree. :)


Brook> That creatures not an actual pig though, it's a sea cucumber. By the way the reason pigs wallow in mud is to remove skin parasites, so they really are very hygenic in their own way.
"Me have crazy times in 70s and 80s, Me like the Robert Downey Jnr of cookies" -Cookie Monster

PGFish> "And there's a flaw in your argument. people with backgrounds like Elisa, Morgan, etc, really exist. People with wings and pig snouts don't. It's not fair to compare the two."

- But in the Gargoyles Universe they DO exist. And Constance is one of them. That is just the way it is. It is what she looks like, not who she is.

As a gay man, I've given your fairy0winged and antennaed Staghart analogy a lot of thought. What occurs to me is that if a gargoyle had a good reason to look like a fairy and happened to be (possibly) gay, I can't see why it would bother me. London gargoyles take heraldic forms. A boar is a heraldic animal. Thus, Constance happens to have a boar form. Again, it is what she looks like, not who she is.

And I heartily agree that Constance isn't a boar, Una isn't a Unicorn, Leo isn't a lion, etc. The complaint has been made before, however, concerning how strongly they resemble these animals down to foot shape, bone structure, etc. That is a fair criticism of their designs, I suppose, but I chalk it up to Greg's Chameleon Mutation Gene or whatever. This is just the way that these gargoyles look. As with any gargoyles, some features just don't mix well. For instance, you likely wouldn't see a Hudson-like gargoyle with Lexington-like wings (fyi, this is a big reason I suspect wing types are directly connected with overall body size). So, a boar-like gargoyle might not be able to genetically mix with a slender gargoyle. Or maybe it can and does and Constance just isn't one of those gargoyles. But keep in mind that mixing does happen among the London Clan. Griff and Pog both display features from more than one beast archetype. And I suspect that in the Gargoyles Universe, the original source of griffon and hippogriff (and other) legends came from just such mixing in London Clan and probably other clans as well.

Even Constance herself does display some mixing of features apparently. Her wings are decidedly not typical of London gargoyles.

Alright everybody, I'm off to Chicago for the holiday weekend. Have a good Fourth of July if you are American and have a great weekend if you are not! Later!

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Farewell, my enemies!" -Macbeth Robot, 'The Price'

Sorry for the double

Siryn: I didn't say I had anything against big girl gargoyles. VERY far from it. The point I'm trying to make is that I'm not happy that the only non hourglass figure female gargoyle we've seen resembles an animal that is frequently negatively associated with larger women.

And I'm glad that you didn't see the connection. You're lucky. Like I said in my most recent post, I'm a bit jaded, but that comes from personal experience, so I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with me, but at least respect my view on the matter. (Oh btw, I don't think it was revealed yet that she was second in command ;))


Constance- well, it seems this conversation got the room more active lol. That's always a good thing.

"But, I also think you risk falling into the stereotypecasting trap yourself. You see the character as she looks and are offended. But isn't that a stereotype itself? Are you not judging her by her looks? You are essentially saying, "I think this is a good character, I just wish she had a different appearance." What if someone said that about Elisa or Morgan or Chavez or Terry Chung? They might be labeled as rascist."

I see what you're saying. I admit I am being shallow, but that's the point. I don't dislike the character or think she has to look a certain way-I'm just calling as it as I see it-how I think others might see it. I admit I'm jaded and cynical, but there's reasons for that.

And there's a flaw in your argument. people with backgrounds like Elisa, Morgan, etc, really exist. People with wings and pig snouts don't. It's not fair to compare the two.

And I think people are misunderstanding me. I don't have anything against pigs. But when someone calls you or your friends "pigs", they're not referring to your intelligence. I think pigs get an unfair rap-but that doesn't change the fact that they are used in a negative conotation. Hey, fairies are cool, but how many gay guys like being called that? I'm pretty sure if Staghart sported fairy wings and antennae and had sparkles coming off of him, some people would be upset, and rightfully so. So why is it so hard to understand my gripe?

Again, Contance is not a boar, Staghart is not a deer, leo is not a lion ect-they're gargoyles-more related to Goliath and Demona than to lions and boars. Real boars and pigs have large bone structure. But that doesn't mean the same should be true of Contance, because she's not a boar. That's the problems with these designs-The characters resemble winged animals more than gargoyles and they're equated too much with their animal counterparts. From what I've gathered from some of the biological discussion in here (from the few things I understood, lol), the gargoyles don't share any sort of genetics with their animal counterparts-so it would be perfectly normal to have a thin boar-like gargoyles, or a "burly" horse/unicorn or deer gargoyle. But that's not the case with any of the characters we've seen-and that's why I'm calling "Stereotype"


A while ago there was talk of making Phoenix Gate T-shirts in the style of the Superman 'S'. It occurs to me that we also need baseball caps with the Eye of Odin.

Greg's interview on 'Reinforcement': http://tv.ign.com/articles/100/1000892p1.html IGN always manages to eke out the best info.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter feed]

Antiyonder> I tell everyone this. Wanna see true Michael Bay in action? Watch the Transformers movie making of special features where he talks about butt-hurt fans. Heh... He digs his own hole and puts up a gravestone to boot, but I still liked the movie. Loved it? No. The more I think of it, themore I laugh at the dumb stuff. But I still went to go see it and wasn't sorry. I WAS glad I waited till Woverine went to the $3 theater and saw it there however...
Jade Griffin - [jade_griffin at hotmail dot com]
"Food, food, FOOD!!" - Jade Griffin, on many occasions

Warcrafter> LOLmuch for the Nostalgia Critic Review of TF2, Roflmao!!
Jade Griffin - [jade_griffin at hotmail dot com]
"Food, food, FOOD!!" - Jade Griffin, on many occasions

Darn... More ppl are voting to make this a forum. I like the comment room form! Always have:) Well, Gore, Do whatcha gotta.

Purplegoldfish> I see a lot of stir over your comment. Don't take it the wrong way. Any gargoyles debate is usually a good one! You raised a valid point in your opinion and we're just expressing our views. It just looks like more people didn't see it your way.

Matt> You raised pigs, too? My dad's the true mountain man, makes his own shot, goes to rendevous, etc. He also fishes and hunts the old way. He's a bowman (also does shotgun, mind you) and back when it was still allowed on Catalina (California), he would go pig hunting. Sometimes he'd bring back a baby and we'd raise that little squealer:) Big fun! And boy did those wild stock get big!

Although they were imports, they were still considered wild pig. Not the English or Southern boar but close. A lot bigger than any peckary. And yes, they do like mud:) Pigs don't sweat so it keeps them cool, plus it keeps the bugs off! Smart animals? Sure. Smarter than cats and dogs? Not sure. Definitely trainable, but definitely more stubborn that a cat... And that's my "know" on pigs. Back to you, Vannah.

Jade Griffin - [jade_griffin at hotmail dot com]
"Food, food, FOOD!!" - Jade Griffin, on many occasions

Purplegoldfish> Actually, as someone who has been around pigs more than cats (that's over 20 years, mind you), I am very familiar with the physique of the porcine and I can tell you that even slim pigs are round. They are built to be slippery little buggars, and hardy, too. I don't think anyone has successfully pulled off a "slim" pig except the beautiful movie "Penelope". And she only had a pig nose. I'm only saying that it's a stereotype because it's kinda hard to draw a picture of an anthro pig and make it look "right" without making the character have big bones if nothing else. Pigs are robust animals like horses, instead of gracile like house cats and foxes. On that note, go rent "Penelope". It's a great movie:)
Jade Griffin - [jade_griffin at hotmail dot com]
"Food, food, FOOD!!" - Jade Griffin, on many occasions

Probably stating the obvious here, but Michael Bay strokes his own ego here: http://movies.yahoo.com/feature/us-magazine-megan-fox-bay.html
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
Algernon's comment about Norman Osborn: One of the neat things about Dark Reign is that it gives Osborn the chance to expand his horizons beyond tormenting a twenty nine year old who still lives with his mom.

Thanks for your help, everyone. Of course it occurred to me to check out Ask Greg AFTER I post. :-P

It's so sad that the Gathering bank is empty. It is with a heavy heart that I agree with Greg's suggestion. I will most certainly enjoy this Gathering to its fullest.

Guardian - [Guardian105 at gmail dot com]

Just read the Gathering thing :( I've only attended one, the Orlando one. I haven't attended other mostly due to money. I'm a single mom and just not have the money to travel across country, but god did I ever want to.

I am saddened by the turn of events. But I don't think it has to be the end at all. Like Greg said, people can still put on Gatherings. I also think Gargoyles fans should take into account there are 100s of other cons out there we can piggyback with. The FX con I went to in Orlando a few months ago had a LOT of Buffy actors. Spike, Drusilla, Glory, Darla, among others. It was NOT a Buffy con, but a lot of Buffy actors signed on. Thus bringing in a lot of Buffy fans. And they had entire panels all about Buffy. I am sure if each one of us garnered more interest in our own local cons that visit near your hometown every year, we can start panels within existing cons. Its just an idea.


Pigs are actually considered the smartest domestic animal. That includes being smarter and than dogs and cats. They have passed tests that only chimpanzees, dolphins, and humans have passed as well.

@ Algernon- i used to raise pigs and the reason they get seriotyped that way is because they pretty much just eat and lay in the mud. they are smart though and can be trained.
Matt T. - [mattstewto at yahoo dot com]

As the person who 'voiced' Coco in the last radio play, I can tell you I wasn't offended at all that she was a boar - gargoyle, or that she was sizeable - or being 'cast' as her. (I honestly didn't even make the connection large gargoyle = fat pig until it was brought up here.)

I mean, from what I've observed, (and know) so far, she's an extremely fun loving/playful/loyal character. AND isn't she second in command of the London clan? Doesn't that stock up a few points to her credit? (The fact she's from the younger generation and is a second in command? When you've got a population of older gargoyles - unlike the Manhattan clan - to choose from as well?

I also love the tusks and pigtails in her design. *L* I think she's pretty sweet looking. XD

(Although, I'm the weird one - I personally LOVE Ophelia's design even though people have commented in the past it's rather 'manly' and she has weird horns).

And I don't really think a heavyset gargoyle is a BAD thing. Far be it for all gargoyles to be slim skinny barbie supermodels. :P Because, that ITSELF is ALSO a 'cultural stereotype.

(If this were so, we'd probably having a discussion on the unrealistic interpretation of the female body and how this comic like many others is helping to add to the media's distortion of woman's self esteem, etc, etc, etc.)

As people have pointed out, maybe the POINT of Coco's appearance is to defy 'common' established stereotypes associated... but again, as a viewer and speaker, I never have been offended or took personally of Coco's appearance or what heraldric animal she is... and yes, I am a girl. XD


@ Algernon: Well, google SEA PIG, and that pretty much tells you all you need to know.
I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

Lurker> http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=10733
Anthony Tini

Lurker> I'm not 100% sure, but Greg tends to avoid question like that, even in the general sense. I think it would be kind of tough to say even generally how many gargoyles there were on earth at the population's zenith.

You could probably make a reasonable guesstimate about the current gargoyle population. Some clans we know the numbers for (assuming you mean present day in the Gargoyles universe, not 2009) and maybe we could even sort out a rough average number of members in a healthy gargoyle clan for those we don't. I believe Greg once said that the original Wyvern clan had around 200 members at its largest, and we know the London Clan has close to 200 gargoyles currently. But the Wyvern Clan existed a thousand years ago and the London Clan has been practicing population control for an unspecified amount of time and has no gargoyle beasts. So maybe we can assume that a modern clan, protected from any major population decreasing disasters and free to grow without worry of overcrowding their current home, might be somewhat larger than 200 gargoyles?

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Has Greg ever addressed what the current world gargoyles population currently is and what it was at its highest? Not talking an exact number, just something like, its currently in the ten of thousands range and highest was in the millions range, something like that.
Lurker - [johnr783 at hotmail dot com]
I have officially lost my namesake.

Guardian> I would still recommend you read Greg's ramble on the subject, but the shortest way to put it was that the Gathering was losing money. Not that I have any personal experience, but as I understand it, the ideal situation is for a convention of any size and sort is to make money that can then be put towards next year's convention. Breaking even is not great, but can work. Losing money is unsustainable. Between the costs of putting on a good con and steadily falling attendance, the Gathering was costing more money than it was taking in and the difference was coming out of the staff's own pockets. So rather than hand a new convention staff a pile of debt instead of a war chest, the staff took Greg's suggestion to make this the last Gathering.

Aside from knowing that it's a risky proposition, there isn't really anything stopping another group of people from starting up their own "Gargoyles" convention. Before now, you probably could not call that convention "The Gathering of the Gargoyles," but I don't know whether that name would be free to use after 2009. You would have to ask the staff, though I would suggest that a new name would help to make it clear that this was a different convention run by different people. I'm pretty sure anyone who has been on the Gathering staff would tell you that it takes a lot of work to put on a convention and that you should be prepared to either start out very small or sink a good amount of your own money into it.

That's pretty much the story from last week, before the fights broke out.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Specifically, Greg's explanation as to why there will be no more Gathering As We Know It (but if you want to do your own we won't stop you): http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/latest.php?rid=818
Karine "Kanthara" Charlebois - [kanthara at gmail dot com]
I kick ass and take names.

Guardian: Well, you could just look at the morass in last week's CR archive . . . but I'd recommend Greg Weisman's ramble (which was also posted last week).

Greg explained it as honestly and succinctly as he could, in my opinion, but I'll let you make your own judgement on the matter.

"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka

Apologies if this has already been discussed, but I'm still trying to find a reason as to why the Gathering will be done after this year. Is there a page I can visit that has the reasons behind it?

Additionally, if it's simply that the current staff has had their fill (thirteen years IS a long run, I will admit), would it be possible to inject new blood into the system somehow?

Any assistance is appreciated.

By the way, absolutely LOVE the new look!

Guardian - [Guardian105 at gmail dot com]

Why is everyone so down on pigs anyway? They're cute, intelligent, hygenic animals yet people equate them with ugly, stupid slobs. What did pigs ever do to you?


If that doesn't melt your heart then you simply have no soul.

"Me have crazy times in 70s and 80s, Me like the Robert Downey Jnr of cookies" -Cookie Monster

I sincerely hope we meet more members of the London clan when the trade comes out. And not just Lunette and Old Pog, but quite a number of Gargoyles. Even if they don't have speaking parts, I just want to see more London Gargoyles.

Skye - Great point...and I have to admit, I like the tusks too. Not to mention that if they weren't there, the pig confusion would just multiply ^^'
Venus/Rika - [VenusAD at gmail dot com]

Constance> Well she's not literally a boar. She's a gargoyle who happens to look like a boar. So it's not unreasonable for her to have some features that wouldn't make sense on a female wild boar. I happen to like her tusks because they make her look more unique and a little more threatening, even if she doesn't actually use them to fight in any way.

It'll be interesting to see if any female lion-like gargoyles in the London Clan have something akin to a "mane" or hair, even though lionesses don't.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Re: Constance - I think just about everyone has touched on any point I could make about this...well, except for one that I just thought of:

First off: Constance is AWESOME.

Anyway, about her body type...I checked out her picture again just in case, and noticed that she's not technically overweight...she has a different body type, yes, but she's more very muscular and stout. Which, is really just like a boar.

With the animal-like gargoyles, they seem to all have body types that are appropriate to the animal: Una is very slender and lanky like a unicorn should be, Leo is very stout and barrel-chested, as is Griff, etc etc.

Honestly, if a Boar-goyle were made--male or female--I would be highly irritated if they didn't have that sort of bodytype.

But my ONE beef, I must confess...is that she has tusks! Female boars don't have tusks. And her nose is pink, which I think is what causes people to confuse the pig thing. Boars noses are a very dark brown. Not pink.

...but I completely do agree that the only females we have seen until now have all had slender, fit builds in one way or another. And I know that may be the ideal and it's certainly the go to for drawing it...but women are so underrepresented and so objectified in comics as it is. It may be difficult, but we should all stay aware of projecting stereotypes and including different body types.

Constance is an awesome start, but we definitely need to see more gargoyles with different body types. I remember being just nine years old and wishing there were more females for me to run around on the playground pretending to be.

Instead, we just turned Brooklyn into a female. That's right.


Venus/Rika - [VenusAD at gmail dot com]

I guess my concerns about Constance are less that she's a heavyset female gargoyle who resembles a pig/boar and more than she is the first and so far only heavyset female gargoyles we've seen and she has the features of a pig/boar. I think when we start to see more gargoyles with varying body types - as I hope we will - Coco looking somewhat like a pig will seem less significant. Personally, I like Coco quite a bit, including her design. Visually, she may well be my favorite new character from the comics so far. But I can see how someone would look at the fact that the first female gargoyle we've seen who doesn't have an hourglass figure also resembles a pig and feel a little uncomfortable, at least initially.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Adam> Scroll to the bottom of the Comment Room and look at my first post this week. Hopefully that answers your question(s).
Anthony Tini

I think Constance goes all th way when Greg stated he wanted to have a not-thin female character that would be prominent.

I really dig her. Not cause I think she provides some sort of "ugly-but-tough-character", but rather because she comes off as something new. Apart from Demona, she certainly is the most masculine and tough female Gargoyle, and I really like that addition. And she certinly seems a stronger character than Angela. ;)

Whilst we're add it, what do you guys actually think of Angela?

I've never really voiced that opinnion on here, but I still think she's my least favourite Gargoyle from the Manhattan clan. Although she is likeable (and hot), she's a bit of... well, hard to get a grip on. Especially with TGC, you could see how different writers tried to apply any character trait they wanted on her. That wasn't the case during S2, but she still felt a bit "rough" in her character outline, at least to me.

I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

PGFish> I kinda agree with you when you say that Constance is not a fully-fleshed out character yet. She is a new character. We are just starting to see beyond her appearance. And I can understand why her appearance might bother you.

But, I also think you risk falling into the stereotypecasting trap yourself. You see the character as she looks and are offended. But isn't that a stereotype itself? Are you not judging her by her looks? You are essentially saying, "I think this is a good character, I just wish she had a different appearance." What if someone said that about Elisa or Morgan or Chavez or Terry Chung? They might be labeled as rascist.

I'm sure that among the London Clan there exists a wide range of forms like any other gargoyle clan. There are larger memebers, smaller members, taller, shorter and all sorts of heraldic forms (though for the record, I doubt tigers, ostriches, giraffes and the like will appear as they are not traditionally UK heraldic beasts). Some gargoyles are going to be female and some of those will have a boar form and some of those will have a heavier frame (and note I didn't say fat as I don't even think Constance IS fat, she isn't slender like Una, but she seems to have a somewhat average and healthy bodyweight to me). Constance is one of these gargoyles. So what?

Did Greg make a conscious decision on appearance when outlining the character? Sure. But if he did it was so that he could completely demolish the stereotype. Given time we would see Constance as she is, and anyone seeing only a "fat pig gargoyle" (whether out of ignorance, annoyance or even the desire to combat and ridicule steretyping) isn't seeing the character anymore.

Frankly, I'm glad of Constance's form as it allows yet another opportunity for Gargoyles to go beyond appearances to what people really are inside. But, mostly I don't even notice her form much anymore as I find her developing personality to be more interesting.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"You're judging it the way humans have judged you..." - Elisa, 'Awakening'

Wild boar (which Constance stands for) don't represent gluttony or fatness so much as they represent fierceness in battle. The wild boar was one of the toughest animals in medieval Europe - so tough that boar-spears had to have a cross-bar on them, because if you didn't have one on your spear, the boar would just go charging up the spear and rip you apart with its tusks before it succumbed to its wound. And there were many legends about hunts for enormous wild boar that needed a band of heroes to take them down, such as the Calydonian boar in Greek mythology, or the great boar Troit in the tale of Culhwch and Olwen, whom King Arthur and his men hunted.

The wild boar's formidableness in battle fits well with Constance, who is so physically strong that she can rip both arms off a Steel Clan robot with her hands (outdoing Beowulf with Grendel).

Todd Jensen

@ Purplegoldfish: As somebody who's rather "post-gender" in such things, I've got no problem whatsoever with her design.
I mean, if she was a guy, people wouldn't mind at all.
Her Boar-features rather might imply a hard-boiled, tough character than a chubby, messed-up girl. I mean Griff wasn't like this dude, so Coco doesn't have to be like Miss Piggy...

@ Patrick: o_O
OK, now we REALLY know...

I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

Miss Piggy might debate the point that pigs can't be sex symbols. But has anyone checked the "Ask Greg" archives to see if an exchange like this exists?

Q: When will Lexington meet his future romantic interest?
A: When pigs fly.

50 days left until the 13th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles in Los Angeles, CA!

Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

sorry Greg but i woulden't use your brothers judgement if i where you after all he is a Dodger fan. ;)
Matt T. - [mattstewto at yahoo dot com]

Purplegoldfish - I don't personally have a problem with Coco or her design. And I'm definitely not sure about a tiger or some of the other animals you named. Are there heraldic tigers? (I'm not too up on my heraldry, I'm afraid.) But it seems like a legit question to me. So why not go to the source and "Ask Greg"? I'd be curious to hear (well, read) his response.
L.T. Williams

Landon: yeah, but these are gargoyles. They hatch from eggs. So if a gargoyle with "burly" genes hatches it has to look like an animal counterpart stereotype? That doesn't make sense.

"Well, "don't judge a book by it's cover" has always been a theme on "Gargoyles." Always. Constance, from what we have seen, is a fully defined character and does defy stereotype."

Technically she's not fully defined yet, she's a new character. I'm not talking about gargoyle biology here, I'm talking about the creative process. These characters aren't real, they're created, so some thought has to go into them. All I'm asking is out of all heraldic animals, why was a pig (or boar) chosen to represent the heavy female? It's a little insulting condsidering, like I said before, that pigs (or pig like animals) are frequently used to taunt overweight people. I know she's a strong character, but I'm focusing on her appearance in this instance. And keep in mind, she's the only heavy female gargoyle we've seen.

I mean Broadway is heavy but grew through the series into a very multi-faceted character, so much that his personality shines through and it's easy to look past his exterior. But Constance presents a constant reminder to us that she's fat with her obvious huge pig snout.

"And, given Greg's track record when it comes to writing female characters, I think we should trust him. I think he's earned that trust."

I agree he writes some of the best female characters I've ever seen. But I think with this character, a cultural stereotype seeped through, maybe unconsciencly. I forgive him though, whatever the case may be. It happens to the best of us.

"It's not like he created a gorilla-gargoyle and had it talk in stereotypical inner city slang, and a gold tooth"

Exactly. But to me a pig-faced fat female is just as bad. Maybe it's a girl thing?

And I know she's a boar, and that it's dignified in the UK. Most of the comic's buyers are from the U.S though, and many probably don't have knowledge of heraldic animals...so to many idiotic people, she's the fat pig gargoyle. And just to be annoying even further ;), I have a book on some heraldic animals that could have been chosen as a design for constance:

tiger, dragon, eagle, falcon, greyhound, pegasus, swan, donkey, sheep, goat, owl, squirrel, leopard, fox, badger, bear, ostrich, peafowl, duck, camel, giraffe...I could keep going.

Now, if Constance were a heavyset cool tiger gargoyle, THAT would defy stereotype.


Thanks Ed. Although you don't have to do it on my behalf anymore (and I was a bit too hysterical this morning). I made a new URL for buying the comics: http://tinyurl.com/GargoylesComic It's perfectly fine for now.

This is the flyer I put up (in addition to Patrick's): http://www.tc.umn.edu/~thom1576/gargoyles/comic-flyer2.pdf I hope you don't mind, I stole your opening lines. Christopher Jones is highlighted because he's on the convention board and people would recognize him. Here's a more generic one: http://www.tc.umn.edu/~thom1576/gargoyles/comic-flyer1.pdf It's no where near as good as Patrick's, but it'll do for the weekend.

I think the London clan physically match their heraldic types. Una and Amp are tall and fit like a horse and stag. Leo is strong like a lion. Griff is athletic like an eagle. Constance is 'burly' like a boar (to use Greg's adjective on her spec sheet). And besides, aren't fat people called pigs because pigs look fat from a human perspective? From Constance's perspective, she might be average.

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

I'd also like to point out that Constance is a boar, not a pig, and boars have indeed been part of heraldry and bears quite the noble qualities.


Karine "Kanthara" Charlebois
I kick ass and take names.

I agree with Greg here. Just because she looks like a pig doesn't mean she is going to act like a pig, although pigs are intelligent animals and Constance is quite intelligent.

and as for the Gorilla comment. It could even be worse. We could of had two annoying and idiotic monkey gargs that like to swear and slap each other around.

Spacebabie - [spacebabie at hotmail dot com]

Well, "don't judge a book by it's cover" has always been a theme on "Gargoyles." Always. Constance, from what we have seen, is a fully defined character and does defy stereotype.

And, given Greg's track record when it comes to writing female characters, I think we should trust him. I think he's earned that trust.

Besides, the London Clan have always been heraldic animals. Nothing new here.

It's not like he created a gorilla-gargoyle and had it talk in stereotypical inner city slang, and a gold tooth.

Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]
"And we have no more stupid people in this country, everyone has 'a learning disorder!'" -George Carlin R.I.P.

There's a time and place for everything. I don't get upset with curse words if used correctly. Spewing them all over the place for no reason is dumb, but they can be a powerful tool for emphasis, especially on the internet where we can't see facial expression and body language. Haven't we've debated this in here multiple times?

Now I will say something that might stir up another debate...I'm sorry but this just came into my head the other day and it won't leave me alone till I get it out.

Why does Constance have to have the face of a pig? I wonder about this because a pig is an animal in our culture heavily associated with heavy people, particularly women, and is used frequently as a degrading allegory. Why does the only heavy set female character in Gargoyles resemble an animal frequently used as a negative metaphor for "fat people"? Why couldn't she have the face of a bird, or a deer, etc..These aren't real animals, these are gargoyles who resemble animals-so the heavy one just happens to resemble a pig.

I'm not angry at this, just...sad, that Greg W. or anyone for that matter who is an advocate for women resort to such basic stereotypes. Still, I do like Contance's personality, and I'm glad we haven't seen her eating huge amounts of food (thank goodness.)


I have not seen any updates in a while, but the the trade paperbacks for Gargoyles #2 and Bad Guys still scheduled for July and August? If they are, does anyone know the date of their release. Thanks.
Adam - [Carlson]

Patrick, I don't think it's fair to say that. If you don't want to see profanity here, that's fine, say so. But what you just said basically equates to: "This is my opinion and I think everyone who disagrees with me is somehow deficient."

My vocabulary is quite substantial and I'm skilled in debating, but in my opinion, curse words have more power than non-curse words and can add something extra to a statement that non-curse words can't. A specific instance comes to mind for me, from this very CR--I remember Harvester of Eyes (I think) was talking about some band, and he commented that their early music was "mind-fuckingly-awesome".

Without profanity, that sentiment could not have been expressed in a way that was nearly as powerful, or nearly as awesome.


Landon: Yeah, I'll be updating gargoylescomic.com this weekend. For reasons hardly worth going into I've had some problems with it and so I'm more delayed than I intended. Sorry about that. But thanks.

Board Issues: Some guidelines might be a good idea. But really, most people know where the limits are. It's having someone to step in and enforce them. Absent that, my suspicion though is that whenever they're most needed they'd be most ignored.

Modding is a pretty unpleasant gig. I've run a board before and to get these things heeded you ultimately need some kind of moderator who'd probably need to sink a fair amount of time in and be a lightning rod for all sorts of controversy. It's an unenviable, time-consuming job. Taken all the way, it can work a treat. Television Without Pity is the only site I know where discussion runs pretty much perfectly; always reasoned, lucid, on-topic. But they have a team of moderators, paid I think, who behave like ruthless fascists enforcing a rule list as long as your arm (link below). They even go in and edit in good spelling and edit out lip and off-topicness. But it's more of a debating club than a community. What you gain in a wonderful discursive atmosphere you lose in individuality.

The CR as it is seems the opposite; it allows people to express themselves, warts and all. And naturally people squabble and argue and rant and wind each other up. And some people out-and-out troll. But given the board's been around 11 years, you have to ask what's changed? We've had nutters and wind-up merchants and out-and-out trolls before. I tend to think a lot of the recent fractiousness is down to (1) the current make-up of the board -- i.e. the PEOPLE and the unique interpersonal balance of the current board; and (2) the situation -- lots of disappointing news in quick succession.

Board fights happen. They happen when personalities clash, and they happen when people get upset, they happen when people see an opportunity to mouth off on the net. But what's impressive is that for most of the last 12 years this *hasn't* happened all too frequently. Sometimes, sure, but not *that* often. And I'm not, like some here, that bothered about arguments popping up. A ruck here and there where there's a controversial or confronting topic actually isn't the end of the world as long as people keep some basic control over themselves, total trolls are nixed and the room is reset at the end of the week. Some people will walk away -- but some people always away from boards. That's in their nature.

Sure, moderation can help; but fundamentally it's not about solving problems but shifting it. Behind closed doors hopefully, but not necessarily. To me, it's very clear how last week could have been moderated. Some people are clearly out of order and just trying to aggravate, others are blunt but totally fair. But I know others have a totally different view. And because it's a small board, the supposedly-independent moderator is all the more likely to be called out when it all heats up. If you think people have problems with in-crowds and out-crowds wait until a controversial issue needs moderating. If the, what, dozen regular posters on this board can't get along without some kind of formal moderation, it's not an issue with the board but the people.

Personally, I tend to think we get, on balance, more from the CR as it's open, simple, emphasises community and refreshes itself every week. There's a danger in blaming systemic problems for what are really human problems. Guidelines and attempts to 'nudge' are fine but it's human nature at play here. Ultimately if we're saying the board is open to everyone, that should mean we allow people enough rope to hang themselves. Obviously a good example from the rest of the CRers is part of this.

If moving to a fully-moderated board would change the facts -- i.e. more people commenting, more discussions, etc. -- I might see the value in it. But it currently strikes me as much like trying to diet by frequenting KFC instead of Burger King.


My opinion has long been that anyone who "needs" profanity for emphasis actually needs a bigger vocabulary and/or better debating skills.

51 days left until the 13th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles in Los Angeles, CA!

Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

I think once the decision on which format people wants comes down, we should have a discussion on what kind of rules make sense and seem fair to us, considering all possible ramifications. For example, if we want to ban profanity, what do we define as profanity? Would we have to refer to "the part where Angela calls Thailog an "illegitimate child,"" even though she uses the actual word in the actual comic? If we want to make the Room appropriate for all ages does that mean we can't discuss hypothetical romantic encounters between characters? Christine Morgan's stories? Lex's sexual orientation?

I'm not trying to say that we definitely shouldn't have a rule that bans profanity or rules to make the CR more kid friendly. After all, if we don't want "Gargoyles" to become completely irrelevant in a generation or two, we need younger fans and it's not like there's a great kid oriented "Gargoyles" forum they can go to instead. All I mean is that we should consider the pros and cons of any rule we adopt before we tell Gore what we do and don't want.

If we went to a message board system, we could have section of the board for more adult conversation if we wanted with an age restriction. Just sayin'.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

I think profanity ought to be allowed here. Not the really really bad stuff, but the standard fare one often hears in a casual conversation with friends is fine with me. A little profanity sprinkled in a paragraph can really add emphasis to what you are saying, in a way that non-profane words can't.

Besides, although clearly children can find this place if they wanted to, what are the odds that they would? Most of the people who are fans of Gargoyles are now adults. Furthermore, this is the internet. The sorts of things that kids can easily find on the internet make a few curse words seem tame.

I may be alone in this sentiment but personally I have no problem with a little profanity.


Greg W. - Very well put by you..and your brother ^_^ Though admittedly, my eyes just about completely crossed when it got into the baseball stuff.

But the profanity thing...I didn't know light profanity wasn't allowed here. I guess I was under the impression that it was more pg-13 than anything?

Re: Lion King - Okay okay, I'll give him that the plot is hobbled together. I mean, I love my Disney and all, but that movie was clearly inspired by Tezuka's jungle emperor, if not an early rip of it. Then they were told to add a little Hamlet, and you get that. And I will definitely give that Simba does a complete 180 from kid to adult and there isn't much explanation for it. It just reeeeally bothers me that he brushed over the fact that Simba, as a child, behaved and reacted in all the ways a privileged kid could. And admittedly? I thought he was kind of a creep when I was a kid. I liked Zazu best. ^^

Oh, and the love story thing. He didn't seem to connect young Nala with grown Nala at all. And she had personality...she was grumpy and serious because she'd likely grown up half starving to death....

Honestly, the thing that threw me the most about that movie when I was young was the fact that Simba and Nala were clearly siblings, and I didn't understand why Nala wasn't killed when Scar took over. But then again, I watched waaay too much discovery channel as a kid.

Venus/'Rika - [venusad at gmail dot com]

Since were talking about Transformers 2...........Here's the Nostalgia Critic's quick review.


Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1 at sbcglobal dot net]
Chuck Norris has never been denied anything. NOT EVEN REVENGE!!!

Greg W> Thank you for taking the time to post your views on this matter. I personally voted "yes" on the poll. While I respect the points you make and pretty much agree with most of them, I have long felt like a message board format would be a better choice then the one we have now for the Comment Room. From my perspective, the problem is not just that we have a few people who come in here and misbehave from time to time or there's a heated argument and people get upset and say things they may regret later; it's that in most cases nothing gets done about it. I recognize that Gore is busy and has other things to do, but whether the Comment Room changes format or not, I think we are going to need real moderation, if not from Gore than from someone Gore appoints to enforce whatever rules we may come up with. Policing ourselves would probably work fine if we were a private forum with a selective membership, but we're not. The Comment Room is a public forum and I don't think any of us want to make it into an exclusive "members only" group. But the downside of a public forum is that along with all of the interesting people who stop by to listen or contribute who want to behave themselves, you get the handful of people who only want to cause trouble. I'm not talking about people with differing opinions; if someone wants to come in here and make a calm, reasoned case for why he or she thinks "Gargoyles" is the worst TV show ever, fine. I'm talking about the people who come in here repeatedly and do nothing but spew profanity about what stupid and useless people all of us are. Ignoring them can work to a point, but if we're going to have rules, I think we also need someone with the power to do things like delete posts or ban people if necessary in accordance with those rules. Because otherwise, the rules are dependent on everyone playing along and it can get to the point where they only apply to the nice people and anyone else is free to do whatever they want.

I feel like a message board system would be easier to moderate. It's more familiar to a lot of people, so it's possible that it would get more use. I find message boards easier to read since conversations can take place in separate threads and you aren't trying to follow and respond to several separate conversations at once. When there's a lot going on in here, I find the Comment Room very hard to read. I know Gore has expressed the concern that a message board without a lot of members can look pretty empty, but if someone happens to wander by the Comment Room while it's taking an hour or more go from "fifth" to "sixth," it can look pretty empty in here too.

What it comes down to for me is that I don't feel like the current Comment Room has any major strengths that couldn't be replicated with a message board. That's my opinion and if the majority of people who vote disagree, then I'll be okay with that. But I do think there needs to be some kind of change here and i think some posted rules - and a way to enforce them - would be a good start.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Before I begin, let me make something perfectly CLEAR. The Station 8 Comment Room is NOT my comment room. It is the property of and under the management of Gorebash for him to run as he sees fit. Personally, I like the Comment Room as is. I'm not a big fan of forums. If the vote goes that way, and Gore decides to make a change, so be it. But I voted against the change. My problem/issues with the comment room is about the (occassional) bad behavior of some people who post and what I perceive as the over-reaction of other people (often the same people, I suppose) to what I perceive as innocuous (or only slightly bad) behavior. But to reiterate, I stand by whatever decision Gorebash makes.

So what follows is only my opinion. Not even that really. What follows is my brother's opinion. And it's not even his opinion on the Station 8 Comment Room or on anything Gargoyles related. As some of you know, my brother, Jon Weisman, has a blog: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/dodgerthoughts/

This blog on the Los Angeles Dodgers gets more hits in a day then we get here in a week. Or two. Probably even three. One of the main features of his blog, one of the things that he has told me is a big draw for DodgerThoughts, is the comments that his readers post regularly, their exchanges and their dialogue with him and with each other. So Jon has developed some basic guidelines for commenting that I think are calm and intelligent and worth considering for what we do at Station 8. Here they are:

Dodger Thoughts Commenting Guidelines
Thank You For Not ...
1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing "no-hitter" or "perfect game" to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn't allowed when it's just being disagreed with

I think these guidelines are very common sense and with the possible exception of #9, apply directly to Station 8. #12 seems particularly applicable. I'd actually add a #13:

13) thinking that just because no one has responded to your post that you are unwelcome. (Your post may simply have inspired no comment.)

These guidelines seem SO straightforward to me, I was stunned to learn today that some people over at DodgerThoughts OBJECT to them. So here's the post Jon made responding to these objections:

Dodger Thoughts commenting is healed - in practice, if not in spirit
After nearly two months, the folks at Typepad have finally solved the bug that prevented comments at the bottom of a page at Dodger Thoughts from appearing until several had been cached. So in that respect, we're back to smooth sailing. Any of you who departed out of frustration, please feel encouraged to return.

On another commenting note, some have voiced to me, either on the site or in e-mail, dissatisfaction about the commenting guidelines and a feeling that only one point of view at Dodger Thoughts is tolerated. I'd like to address these concerns in this post. ...

Starting with the guidelines ... I realize that they are not everyone's cup of tea, but I still feel they do far more good than harm. Conversation can quickly become heated on the Internet, and I firmly believe the guidelines keep things from getting out of hand. It'd be nice if we were all mature adults -- but we're not. Myself included.
The guidelines are meant for everyone, and they apply to the most diehard regulars. If, for some reason, you feel that a comment has been posted that should be deleted, don't hesitate to let me know, either here or via e-mail. If you find the guidelines too confining, then consider the big picture of what they accomplish. If that big picture doesn't look attractive to you, well, I've learned all too well that I can't please everyone. Believe me, it's been humbling.

There are a few other points I'd like to emphasize:
*Although off-topic conversation is allowed at Dodger Thoughts, it is meant to broaden the discussion and the community here, not narrow it. If someone's talking about television when you want to talk about Chad Billingsley, then make a comment about Chad Billingsley. There's nothing stopping you.
*No Dodger Thoughts rule prevents a point of view. Every point of view is welcome.
*People who agree on some issues disagree on others. We're all human.
*There is no ban on any style of conversation that would be allowed in a civil, offline venue.

One quirk that occurred to me overnight is that the people who complain the most about the site's rules tend to be the people who, frankly, are most protected by them. A primary purpose of the comments is to safeguard those who have minority viewpoints.

Since more than one reader is encountering this problem, I take it very seriously. I want to remind people to treat everyone with respect -- especially those with whom you disagree. This is of the utmost importance.
At the same time, I'd like to remind those whose comments meet opposition that disagreement is not censorship. It's easy to become defensive -- it happens to me, like anyone else -- but if someone is rebutting with you without attacking you personally, the simple thing to do is respond to the rebuttal. Or write it off. The point is, we're all here for the same purpose.

If you feel you are being chased away, let me know. But first, examine if that's truly happening. It's not easy to be in the minority on an issue, but inevitably, someone is going to be.

My transition to The Times has not gone as smoothly as I had hoped, for three reasons that I can name (not counting the requirement to capitalize both Ts in "The Times"). One has been the technical problems, and another has been a bit of a culture clash between readers.

Perhaps the oddest wrinkle in the transition has been the effect of the Dodgers surprising all of us by having the best record in baseball. That itself has led to a divide between those who find some complaints about the team petty, against those who feel that no problem is too small even when the team is winning.

It's not so much that there's heated disagreement on the main issues, as there is disagreement about how to respond to those issues. For example, I would say a minority of readers believe Matt Kemp should bat low in the order, but a majority feel it hasn't been worth losing sleep over. A minority of readers think the Dodgers have a playoff spot locked up, but a majority don't seem to think it's time to panic. And so on.

I can see both sides. The level of negativity this season has struck me as remarkable and kind of depressing, not because I'm a knee-jerk defender of all things Dodgers (another accusation I've encountered more than once lately) but because I simply want to savor the good times as they happen. That being said, I should probably be more tolerant of the negativity and not make such a big deal of it.

But also, maybe that means that some other commenters shouldn't make such a big deal over some things as well. From the site's very first day, long before commenting was even a notion, I've wanted Dodger Thoughts to be a place to seek perspective on the team (and the sport, and life). That doesn't mean a "No Griping" rule. But it does imply that the gripes should have a sense of context -- and sometimes, I feel that is lacking.

In the end, I consider this site my responsibility. As we near the All-Star Break and I look back at the first half of the season, aspects of site management that I could have handled better shout out at me. I am going to do my best to improve over the second half of the season, which may bring us a breezy jaunt to October or a tense pennant race. I hope, win or lose, people continue to find this a nice place to hang out.


Greg again here. What strikes me is that even though Jon is discussing very specific Dodger-related issues above, it's stunning how much this seems to apply to us here at Station 8. For example:

*Griping is totally legit. But griping without any sense of context does get old and leads to temper flare ups.
*The MORE you disagree with someone, the MORE respectful you should be. If you can't be respectful, don't respond. Or at the very least, GO AWAY for an hour or two until you calm down.
*Don't sink to the level of the most obnoxious posters. If we've got a troll, it does NOT help to troll back at him or her.

I think it would be a good idea, no matter what format the comment room takes going forward if some version of the DodgerThoughts guidelines were adopted and POSTED on the sidebar for everyone to see every time they post.

Again, that's merely my opinion. Gore can and should simply do whatever he wants.

Finally, I want to thank my brother, whom I admire to no end. I'm sure he has no idea of the problems we had here last week. It's not like I planned to post anything else on a subject that has largely gone still. But I check Jon's blog daily, and there this was. This incredibly well-written common sense response to a problem he didn't even know I was having. Thanks, Jon.

Greg Weisman

@ Rika: You have to have a certain knowledge of who Michael Bay is and what he actually does.

BAd scripts are not an excuse for a bad film nowadays. For example, COLLATERAL had a very dumb script, yet the director (Michael Mann) somehow made it to transform a shallow, unintentionally funny and over-the-top scripts into a very realistic and memorable film which set standarts for the Thriller-genre.

Michael Bay for example has sort of a "wild card", where he can add anything to the script he wants. This isn't usual in Blockbusters, just look at what happenned with WOLVERINE.
Bay has a say in every little aspect of his films. EVERY! If he wants to change Optimus Prime into a Power Ranger in post prod., he's allowed. Thankfully he hasn't made that bad decisions so far.

As for the review, first of, subjectively spoken, in the scene he shows there is no joke present, apart from 8probably) his mother flipping him off, which is also not a joke. AT ALL! You could also let a girl walk by him and drop soda on him without explanation, and him saying "Who, whatever!" It's not a joke.

As for the LION KING review - he got it, spot on. I hated this film when I saw it as a kid, and I still hate it, for all the reasons he pointed out, mainly the protagonist being an asshole in the first place, and later on a vegetable with zero character traits whatsoever. It was the first Disney film I didn't enjoy, and - sadly enough - it was followed by equally big let downs. Remember Pocahontas? *shudders*

I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

Demonskrye> Be my guest. :)

RIKA> I like the Lion King but a lot of Confused Matthew's critisisms are fairly legitimate, Simba's character really is all over the place.

"Me have crazy times in 70s and 80s, Me like the Robert Downey Jnr of cookies" -Cookie Monster

RIKA> << I know the director always gets blamed for like..everything. But if the script isn't there, the movie won't be either.>>

Well, the reason the director gets blamed for everything is because the director is responsible for everything that winds up on the screen. The director has final say on the script. The director (usually) has final cut on the movie.

Michael Bay was given a lot more freedom on this one than he was on the first. Spielberg was a lot more heavily involved as producer on the first movie. But, this time, he stood back and let Bay do his thing.

This sums him up pretty well:


Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]
"And we have no more stupid people in this country, everyone has 'a learning disorder!'" -George Carlin R.I.P.

Algernon> May I quote that? I don't know in what context I would use it, but I know I want to.

Transformers> Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion and I don't think Greg is being unreasonable in stating his. I haven't seen the new movie myself, but I did enjoy the first one. I didn't think it was great, but I went in with very low expectations and had a good time. (Didn't hurt that we saw it at BotCon either.) My husband and a friend of mine, who also felt at least OK with the first movie, did go to see the second one. My husband's expectations were extremely low. My friend was likely expecting something akin to the first movie and was more excited. And did I mention that they are both longtime Transformer fans? They both HATED the movie and advised that i not see it, period. Not "Oh if you're in the mood for a movie where things blow up and not much else, then you might want to go." Just outright "Skip it." What really surprised me was that my husband said it was actually rather boring and not very exciting at all, which was the least I expected from it.

The whole "it's just a movie to sell toys to kids" argument just doesn't fly with me. Not anymore. I've seen too many good stories in various media based on toys properties for that to be an excuse. "Beast Wars" was intended to sell toys. So was "Transformers Animated." Heck, even "Cowboy Bebop" came out of somebody wanting to sell toys. Yes, it's a summer movie and I'm not going to go in expecting it to feature mind blowing acting or deep insight into the human experience. I went an saw the first "Night at the Museum" because I wanted to see some fun special effects and a not terribly challenging movie and I had fun. But that isn't an excuse for bad characterization or a boring and confusing script or sexism and racism, which really doesn't help much in selling toys to kids. Just as there is no reason a movie nased on a toyline can't be good, there is no law that says a movie can't deliver both an adrenaline rush and a good story with great characters. Look at the new "Star Trek," which had the same writers as "Transformers," which I believe is the reason Greg thinks Bay deserves the blame for the latter film's problems. Look at "Spider-Man 2." Look at "Dark Knight." All action movies, all with interesting characters and solid stories. Which is why I'm not going to be satisfied with just some cool looking action scenes, especially when the movie is adpating a property that I care about.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Venus> "Okay, I just watched his Lion King review and lost whatever like I had for him. I don't care whether he thought it was good or not, but he seems to be completely devoid of understanding kids or dynamic characters.

Although I will give him that Timon and Pumba are total jerks. But you can have antagonists without them actually being evil or even against the protagonist directly. They just have to somehow be against what is trying to be accomplished. Also, it's called comic relief."

Are we talking about the review of TLK by ConfusedMatthew?

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

Hah! Yeah, that'd work if it wasn't for the fact that when they're out of your species it's not just a question of subjective beauty.
I personally think he/she/it is ADORABLE. ^^

Okay, I just watched his Lion King review and lost whatever like I had for him. I don't care whether he thought it was good or not, but he seems to be completely devoid of understanding kids or dynamic characters.

Although I will give him that Timon and Pumba are total jerks. But you can have antagonists without them actually being evil or even against the protagonist directly. They just have to somehow be against what is trying to be accomplished. Also, it's called comic relief.

And yes...yes, you can pretty much convince a kid that ANYTHING is their fault, especially when they've just had a traumatic experience. That would be why abuse often goes unreported for so long. (Granted, the adults not questioning it when Scar's story starts falling apart was not only hilarious but too true).

Venus/V/Rika/Thatchickinthebikerhat - [VenusAD at gmail dot com]

Venus> Beauty is also subjective, some people like blondes others prefer brunetts but nobody thinks Cthulhu is sexy.
"Me have crazy times in 70s and 80s, Me like the Robert Downey Jnr of cookies" -Cookie Monster

Oh oh, also, for the reviewer guy Brook (i think it was) linked?

How can you go on and on saying that liking a movie is subjective and then later state that something is unequivocally not funny? Comedy is also subjective, duh. My ex used to do that...and it made me want to punch him in the face. >_<

Venus/V/Rika/Thatchickinthebikerhat - [VenusAD at gmail dot com]
And the jock didn't have to do anything bad to show that he was a jerk...did you see that backwards baseball cap? Clear sign of jerkiness.

Greg B. - Hey now...be a little reasonable. Yeah, the story was terrible...but the action was explosive and terribly entertaining. I'll give Bay that. Also, he didn't write the script for either movie. I know the director always gets blamed for like..everything. But if the script isn't there, the movie won't be either.

Not to say he hasn't done terrible stuff (for instance: the "leading lady" shots were all nothing but masturbatory material that didn't add anything to an already shallowly written character)...but you've got to allow for the fact that he didn't write the crap in the first place.

That review was amusing, but Oh my god, It dragged on! And also? I actually laughed all through transformers. It was awkward and silly. That's pretty much what made me like it. Well, that and mindless action sequences.

Venus/V/Rika/Thatchickinthebikerhat - [VenusAD at gmail dot com]
And the jock didn't have to do anything bad to show that he was a jerk...did you see that backwards baseball cap? Clear sign of jerkiness.

Matt> Technically, my sister is of the opinion that you should watch a movie or show before you diss on it, otherwise how can you validate your opinion if you haven't even seen it. And... I did not know about Ed! Ack!! So many big flowers wilting in the Sun of Ages. SIgh...
Jade Griffin - [jade_griffin at hotmail dot com]
"Food, food, FOOD!!" - Jade Griffin, on many occasions

MATT> Well, to answer your question, I'm a big movie buff. I graduated from film school with degrees in producing and screenwriting. So, I try to see every movie from the big blockbusters to the little art house movies. I don't make it to every movie out there, but I try.

And I love to review movies. Hell, I have fun trashing bad movies... it's a guilty pleasure of mine. This one, however, was beyond bad.

RIKA> See, that's the thing. We've had good "Transformers." Yeah, the original cartoon was really stupid. But a good portion of the original comics weren't. Simon Furman tried to tell some fun, epic, science fiction stories there. "Beast Wars" came along and did well. Hell, even the recent "Animated" told a pretty good story. Why couldn't this movie? Especially since it had the talented screenwriters behind the new "Star Trek?" ... oh, right, Michael Bay.

Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]
"And we have no more stupid people in this country, everyone has 'a learning disorder!'" -George Carlin R.I.P.

battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.


I think I should link to this --> http://confusedmatthew.com/Transformers.php

Hillarious, as allways.

I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

Shameless Friend Promotion> My friend Les draws comics for a living, the most high profile of which was "The Middleman," which was made into a TV show. A while back, he offered to do 5"x5"commissions for people of whatever character they would like for $10 each plus shipping. So he's doing it again. Among Les's talents is his ability to draw pretty much anything and draw it well. So if you want a nice piece of artwork of your favorite "Gargoyles" character, he could probably do it for you. Plus, the last time he did this, he posted all of the drawings he did on his website. Like so:


(That's just one page of his commissions. He actually did do a total of 100 drawings, spread out over several posts.)

So if you do decide to order a "Gargoyles" drawing, you will not only have a nice piece of artwork of your very own, but the drawing will show up on Les's site, giving "Gargoyles" a little extra publicity. And if someone viewing his site sees the drawing and says "Hey, I remember that show," you can bet I will be there talking up the DVDs and the comic.

I will try to avoid any more ad-like posts for at least a while.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

I posted this to the contact link at gargoylescomic.com, but I thought I'd post here in case someone knows who runs it. The site could use an update. I think Clan-Building volume 2 and Bad Guys - Redemption should get a prominent spot instead of Bad Guys #4 and Gargoyles #8. Links:


Also the orange box has old info, as does Ricky's Blog and the t-shirt is gone. Also I don't know how useful the 'Ordering Information' and 'Amazon Product List' links are. Most comic resellers will be sold out of the single issues by now. And it's always difficult to find the new trades by search on amazon.com; they're never on the first page and they aren't on the 'Product List'. Direct links are really all that work. Embedded YouTube trailers would be great too.

If this could get updated today, I can do a two-page flyer deal at CONvergence and really have a presence. What I really need is a useful, easy-to-remember URL for the trades with Amazon links, and GargoylesComic.com will be great when it's up-to-date. If you want to email me FTP user info, I'd be glad to update it all myself. I should have thought of this earlier, but I'm checking into the hotel tomorrow, so today would be best.

Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at gmail dot com]

Anon - You mean like the animated one? I dunno. I'm referring to the first live action, Michael Bay one. I liked that one. Too many human characters and some REALLY stupid use of things like "above top secret" and "hotwiring" a computer...oh, and the fastest hotwiring of a vehicle EVER (she is so lucky she didn't actually have to open the panel or cut anything...or she just has MAD SEXY SKILL). Oh, and pointlessly hot girlthatbelongsinadoritosadorsomething got on my nerves with all the pointless sexist scenes that were pathetically excused by the "oh hey, she isn't a stereotype because works on cars, that's it!" device, but...

What was my point again? Oh. MOAR GIANT ROBOTS. I loved Barricade. And as long as they have the original (dub) voice for Optimus, I'm in everytime. ^^

Venus/V/Rika/Thatchickinthebikerhat - [VenusAD at gmail dot com]
I have that Taylor Swift song "Love story" in my head and I cannot get it out....please shoot me.

Do you mean the first first movie or do you mean the second first movie?

Re: Transformers - Uh, am I the only one that seems to remember that this is a series created entirely to push a toy line? I was never a fan as a kid until Beast Wars...and I loved the first movie, but still haven't seen the second...but I'm not expecting anything amazing.

Racism in Transformers? NO WAI. I shall use a quote from VG Cats to express my opinion on this: "...did they just kill off the only BLACK robot?!"

Re: American Military involved in everything.
Dude, have you LIVED in this country? You cannot have a giant war going down without the military getting involved. Honestly, them not blowing crap up would be totally unrealistic and even stupider. Besides, our men and women in the military branches need all the support they can get...so if movies paint them in a good light, I'm all for it. Eeeven if it short changes the value of robots from outerspace. ^^

Re: GATHERING - I have successfully found nicely priced tickets and booked our flights out to LA. If anyone is still looking, I highly suggest Orbitz. It seems to usually have the cheapest total (with fees and tax and all). Once Nikki (Hecate) gets her side done we shall be solid for attendance! See you guys there!

Venus/V/Rika/Thatchickinthebikerhat - [VenusAD at gmail dot com]
I have that Taylor Swift song "Love story" in my head and I cannot get it out....please shoot me.

Well, that's a neat trick. Pay money to verify your opinion, ensuring that you have the right to express it...

Maybe it'd be better to just say, "I didn't see this movie because I don't generally like this guy's movies." That is an opinion also and it'd save you ten bucks.

Don't ask me why i'm rambling on about this subject. Nothing against you, Greg B, or anything.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Without a mind to direct the Gate, it'll be forever lost in time..." - Angela, "Future Tense"

Matt: " Why would you go to see a movie you know you won't like? If you hate this guys movies, why pay to see them? "

Because if you don't see them, the people who do like them will make the case, that you can't possible now what happened and whether the movie is really that bad, because you didn't see it. You are only allowed an opinion if you are part of ticket sales.

The vote doesn't work for me, no, I'm not turning on whatever for it.


Greg B> Why would you go to see a movie you know you won't like? If you hate this guys movies, why pay to see them?

Jade G> Don't forget Ed McMahon...

Demona/Time Travel> I wonder if Demona would've ever bothered to try to change time if Xanatos hadn't come to her with the opportunity. Perhaps she didn't REALLY think it'd work, but since Xanatos gave her the chance she took it. Nothing lost if it didn't work, afterall. She clearly isn't even all that surprised or upset when they all return to 1995 and they discover nothing has changed. I mean imagine her anger and irritation when her Hunter's Moon or Titania's Mirror schemes were thwarted. In Vows, she all but shrugged and glided off.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Without a mind to direct the Gate, it'll be forever lost in time..." - Angela, "Future Tense"


Hurray! Just ordered my Bad Guys and Clan Building #2 TPB's! Can't wait to get them!!
Jade Griffin - [jade_griffin at hotmail dot com]
"Food, food, FOOD!!" - Jade Griffin, on many occasions

Um... Has anyone else noticed the high amount of high profile deaths this month? Billy Mays, Michael Jackson, Farrah Faucett, The Gathering... Steee-range. Glad we're more on the positive side of The Gathering now.
Jade Griffin - [jade_griffin at hotmail dot com]
"Food, food, FOOD!!" - Jade Griffin, on many occasions

Jade Griffin> Just one more reason why I wished I'd bought a 360, instead of my used PS2.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

Jade Griffin> It looks really good, but I can't force myself to pay $59.99 for a video game. I'll wait awhile and get it eventually since I've heard mostly good about it and I'm a huge GB fan. I just got the movie on blu-ray for $10.
Anthony Tini

@ BB: Michael Bay guarantees #1 for the weekend. So why bother? ;)
I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

BTW, husband bought the new Ghostbusters game for xbox360. Wow... Fun to watch or play! And I am mentioning it in here because it has stone gargoyles brought to life:) They don't look like the show gargs but seeing stone gargs on fire attacking the Ghostbuster crew was just too cool not to mention:)
Jade Griffin - [jade_griffin at hotmail dot com]
"Food, food, FOOD!!" - Jade Griffin, on many occasions

Greg B.> Funny... I always saw Duke Igthorn from Gummi Bears as kind of like Demona in that way. Great ideas, poorly executed from Igthorn (or always thwarted by the gummies) but with Demona it is more like poor ideas executed well. Except that spell from City of Stone. THAT was a great idea. Hooking up w/ Thailog, no. And I guess Coldstone was a good idea but it was probably Xanatos's, lol. What do you think?
Jade Griffin - [jade_griffin at hotmail dot com]
"Food, food, FOOD!!" - Jade Griffin, on many occasions

I liked TF2, I'll admit, but I thought from minute one of the first film it could have been A LOT better. I mean, the TF's don't look like TF's; The story is totally new, and Michael Bay. Come on, couldn't you get a GOOD director?

They could have made the film closer to G1 and from the ROBOTS point of view, not from the tired, warn out "American Government defeats the enemy again"

I'm SICK of films where the US army blows up the enemy and the people rejoice. (Mars Attacks, Independance day, MIB, TF, ETC.)

If you watch the original series of TF, You'll notice that the American Government and Army are minimally involved.

Yes, in the new film there where alot more robots. That was good. That FAQ Greg posted was pretty much right on the money. There were many plot holes and plain crappy parts of the movie, but I still enjoyed it.

battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

Demonskrye> Yes, I saw the movie. I'd rather not go any further here. But I saw it.

This speaks volumes also:


Now, to get back on topic...

Demona and the time stream: The key thing to remember about Demona is that she doesn't learn from her mistakes, even though she witnessed this one. But yeah, in the episode, she did try to leave with her younger self before Goliath showed up.

"I know from experience that my arrival through the flames will attract one other."

Demona, and I love her, is a screw up. It's a major character aspect, and one I tried to capture when I wrote "Rhapsody". It's part of what makes her so fascinating.3dc

Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]
Michael Bay is essentially what you get when you take a porn director, give him $200 million, and tell him to film anything he wants, except actual sex. Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen is proof of this.

Demona and Time Travel> I kind of doubt she cares about preserving the integrity of the timestream, assuming she even understands it at all. Goliath would be concerned about not harming the past. Xanatos wants to ensure that things happen as they are supposed to, but for his own gain. I don't think Demona would go back in time just to ensure that nothing happened differently than the way she remembered it. She was hoping for a different outcome. I imagine you guys were right and she was too worked up to think straight about what argument would actually be effective in convincing her younger self that she is right or remember how it felt to be in that position listening to her older self. Plus it's been over a thousand years since she met up with her older self. Considering that I can't remember what I had for breakfast yesterday, it's possible that she didn't realize that she was saying the exact same words that she heard and rejected from her older self.

I'm not quite convinced that Demona now knows that history is immutable. Maybe she realizes that, despite her best efforts, everything still happened exactly as she remembered it and nothing changed. But she didn't have a definitive experience like Goliath did in trying to bring Griff home that showed her that time will always ensure that the outcome is the same no matter what you do and that any attempts you make to change the past always have happened and always will happen, so you can't really change anything.

Transformers: RotF> Did you actually go to see the movie, Greg? Or are you just going on what you've heard? I'm not trying to call you out or anything; I just want to know where you're coming from.

I have heard a lot of bad things about that movies from critics and fans alike, including people who really like Transformers and enjoyed the first movie for what it was. It doesn't seem to be hurting it's box office take any though.

Shameless Promotion Department> I have a new blog about animation! Click on my name or go to http://inkandpixelclub.livejournal.com/ to check it out. I just launched it tonight so I'm pretty excited. I don't intend to spam the comment room every time I have a new post up, but I would like to ask for your opinions. I am planning to do a post about "Gargoyles" at some point. I think the sanest way to tackle it is to write mainly about a single episode, or else it will just feel like way too much material to cover and I'd worry readers would just be lost. I'm trying to decide what episode would work best. The ones I'm thinking about are "Thrill of the Hunt," "Temptation," "Deadly Force," and "Reawakening." What do you think? Is there one you think would work better than the others? A different episode that would make an even better article? A different take on the series aside from an episode analysis that you would like to see?

Thanks for your help.

Demonskrye - [<---The Ink and Pixel Club]

I was writing a reply, but it turned into a really long rant on how terrible Michael Bay and his movies are. So, I'll just share this link:


100% accurate.

Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]
Michael Bay is essentially what you get when you take a porn director, give him $200 million, and tell him to film anything he wants, except actual sex. Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen is proof of this.

I thought it would have been okay if it weren't for all the juvenile jokes.


Like the tiny decepticon humping Megan Fox's leg, the giant pyramid-eating decepticon having huge metal testicles, and the two twin autobots being SO stereotypically ghetto. These are just a few examples.


If all that crap had been cut out, it probably would've been decent, at least as far as big dumb action movies go. But all that juvenile humor made it where I couldn't really enjoy it that much.


Well, "Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen" may have been one of the most disgusting pieces of crap ever puked onto the silver screen by Damian the Antichrist aka Michael Bay.

But, it did give us this humorous gem:


Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]
Michael Bay is essentially what you get when you take a porn director, give him $200 million, and tell him to film anything he wants, except actual sex. Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen is proof of this.

Warcrafter here with another video.

This person made of sort of remix of the Gargoyles theme, only made it more orchestry, not like the other types of remix's we are used to.


Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1 at sbcglobal dot net]
Chuck Norris has never been denied anything. NOT EVEN REVENGE!!!

Well, not a formal announcement yet, but our latest Gathering guest is one I'm very excited about.

Steve Blum, voice of the villainous Green Goblin in "The Spectacular Spider-Man." Chameleon too. He's awesome in the role too:


He was also Spike Spiegal on "Cowboy Bebop", Vincent Valentine in "Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children", Jamie in "Megas XLR" and Wolverine in "Wolverine and the X-Men."

Spread the word!

Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]

Karine: Thanks for saying it, all the same. That pretty much sums things up.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"'In the end?' Nothing ends, Adrian. Nothing ever ends..." -Dr. Manhattan ("Watchmen")

The poll will be up for at least another week. I want to try and get as many opinions as possible. Then I'll start worrying about what changes need to be made and how easy said changes would be.

I'd chalk Demona's actions to a couple reasons:

A. She was merely trying to preserve history.

B. Humans and Gargoyles alike will sometimes cast logic aside when their own wants/desires/emotions are on the line.

I'd say that given her lapses of judgement, that B. is a the most probable reason.


I'd also like to point out one detail.

This comment room =/= The Gathering.

If you were mistreated in here, you have to keep in mind that an online forum like this one is limited to text-only communication (smilies notwithstanding) which means that things like sarcasm and humour are more difficult to convey without the help of voice inflection and body language. So, while you may have received bad treatment from people, chances are this stemmed from a bad intro on your part as well. Not intentionally, no. Just that sometimes, people come off as insulting/arrogant/flaming/mean/idiots when their text mode is not truly communicating their intent. You may also have misread/misunderstood some of the previous commentary and found yourself rebutting a point erroneously.

There's also the fact that a lot of people who've been here for a long time forget that they were once newbies, and that they had to learn the local etiquette as well, and as an old group of 15 years, there's a lot of etiquette that has been established, like it or not. So the newbies can't be expected to know all about how to talk in this room, and the oldies should remember to use patience when dealing with them.

So if you've been treated badly in here, think about it. It's not just the fault of the group that ganged up on you, it's also your fault for not coming across as someone who brought something positive to the forum. By this I don't mean you can't disagree with anyone... I just mean to think about what your post is actually saying before you post it. And that's not always easy to do. If you get attacked, go read your post again. Figure out what you wrote that was misconstrued or was hurtful to the people here.

Now that I've commented on the online part, onto the live meet part.

If you've been treated badly at the Gathering, I will put forward this theory. Not all of us are social butterflies who get along with everyone. Not all of us are always happy and nice and welcoming and smiley and extroverted. Some people are awkward, some are shy, some just don't know how to interact with people. Some just don't know about the "bubble" that is personal space, and some people put up walls so tall and hard you almost physically feel them. Yes, I've been a bitch to some people at the con, but the bitchiness was more often than not provoked. Yes, I've made mistakes in dealing with certain people. Some people have made mistakes in dealing with me. I've made friends, lost friends, dumped friends throughout the years. THIS IS NORMAL. When there is a huge assembly of people, do you really think everyone will get along with everyone? No one likes everybody, why expect everybody to like you?

If you're focusing on one or two issues of having been mistreated, underappreciated, or other such negative experience, and are generalizing this as your entire Gargoyles experience, you are missing out. There are so many aspects to this fandom, so many issues, so many different kinds of people... it would be sad to not get to know a few of them at least.

Anyways... I'm sure I didn't say anything new. Just... had to say it.

Karine "Kanthara" Charlebois - [kanthara at gmail dot com]
I kick ass and take names.

Demonskrye> I don't think Demona really understood that time cannot be changed until she woke up back in the future. To me, it seemed as though the one thing she really tried to do differently was to get her younger self through the Phoenix flame before Goliath interrupted, but she failed to do that.

Her fight with Goliath may have made her forget any planned script she may have had, forcing her to speak directly from the heart, which clearly didn't work as intended.

Admittedly, I haven't seen the episode in awhile, so I could be wildly off base.


Nothing in the Diamond lists this week. If SLG is still on schedule for a pre-Comic-Con release, we should see volume 2 shipment plans next Monday or the week after. Feels good to be anticipating a release again; it's been a while.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

@ Demonskrye: From most, the issue was with the behaviour of certain individual people.

I mean - you'll find 20 people who've had a good time with Frank Miller, but also the same number of people who've found him to be a total dick.

See - there'll always be many who have a good time at whatever they do with who they do it. Some people were treated well, others weren't, and I think anger and frustration about the news just really took over for a moment. Todd pretty much summed it up in his last message (and so did I, I think...) - in the end, it's important to be as open and well mannered as can be, when things have sort of a public forum.

I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

Gore> How long are you going to keep the poll up? Not that I think it needs to come down yet; I'm just curious what the time frame will be.

Last Week Postmortem> I can only ever speak for myself, but it seems to me that the conversation about some people feeling that the Gathering became to insular and not as welcoming as it could have been may need to happen, IF it can be done in a calm and civil manner. I do think that if people have concerns about the convention, they should be able to express them, if only so they can be taken into consideration by anyone who might decide to try to run a new "Gargoyles" convention. But if all we're going to get is "I know why the Gathering failed; it's the fault of these people who I will now call out and criticize for things generally unrelated to the running of the Gathering," it's not worth it. The Gathering staff members are not going to admit that they did anything wrong - whether they did or not - if the complaints are made in such a way as to immediately put them on the defensive. I'm not saying that justifies anyone making personal attacks against anyone else on either side of the debate. I believe that we are each responsible for our own conduct no matter what the other person says. But I do think there is a way this discussion can procede without turning into a bunch of finger pointing.

What I would prefer to see is people who think this issue is important describing specific events they experienced or observed without naming names. Many of the accusations I saw being thrown around last week were aimed at particular people, but either so vague or so tangentally - if at all - related to the Gathering itself that I couldn't figure out what the actual problem was. I want to hear the specific issues, but not in a way that makes it an attack on one particular person. For example, "When I was at the Gathering, I had a question for a staff member but he just ignored me." Or "At one Gathering, I saw the same five people getting to talk with Keith David all the time and no one else got to spend any time with him." Then we (which probably means people more knowledgeable about the Gathering than me) can try to sort out what happened without turning the accusation back on the person who brought up the problem. What was the staff member doing when he didn't answer your question? Were people being blocked from approaching Keith David, or were they just unwilling to approach him? Hopefully, through this kind of discussion we can sort out what are issues that a future "Gargoyles" convention could seek to improve on and what were more misunderstandings.

If anyone feels up to doing that, I will gladly listen, even if I can't provide much information. If it's just going to be more attacks and defensiveness and counterattacks and chaos, then I think we should leave this issue alone until we have enough distance from it to discuss it rationally.

Actual "Gargoyles" Question> At what point do you think that Demona came to a realization that the past cannot be altered, assuming she ever did? She would have remembered her conversations with her older self and the older Goliath before she traveled back to 10th century Scotland in "Vows." So she must have believed that she would be able to do a better job of convincing her younger self to do what she believed was necessary to prevent the Wyvern Massacre. So why does she say and do the exact same things that failed to convince her previously? (Aside from "Time is fixed and that's the way it always happens," which seems to rob Demona of her free will.) Does she just not remember exactly what she said? Did she somehow convince herself that it would work this time, even if nothing had changed? When she returns to the present day, does she realize that changing the past is impossible? Or would she try to do so again if the opportunity came up?

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Also repeating:

*Amazon.com * (unofficial) dates:

-- Gargoyles: Clan Building Volume 2 (July 29, 2009)
-- Gargoyles: Bad Guys Volume 1 (August 5, 2009)

* Diamond Comics * (official) dates:

-- unknown currently

Keep your eyes on these two pages.


Each and every Monday afternoon at 2pm, PREVIEWSworld.com provides a list of new products arriving in comic shops for the following week!

So, if CB V2 is coming out 7/29 then you'll see it on "upcomingreleases" on 7/20 and "newreleases" on 7/27.

If BG V1 is coming out 8/5, then you'll see it on "upcomingreleases" on 7/27 and "newreleases" on 8/3.

Anthony Tini

Bit of a repeat, but since the room has rolled over...

The Gathering web site has been updated!

We have details posted for a bunch of recently added guests including "Gargoyles" voice actors Brigitte Bako (Angela), Bill Fagerbakke (Broadway), and Marina Sirtis (Demona) and "Spectacular Spider-Man" voice actors Vanessa Marshall (Mary Jane Watson), Daran Norris (J. Jonah Jameson), Deborah Strang (Aunt May), and James Arnold Taylor (Harry Osborn and Frederick Foswell).

53 days left until the 13th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles in Los Angeles, CA!

Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

(10th)Tenth and away we go on with the show!
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]



The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>")> ...

number 6 here.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

Fifth for finishing Part 5 of Band of Brothers :)
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka

Fourth! Woot!
battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.





Kythera of Anevern
"Live for glory, strength and fury; play your part in the greater scheme of life and nature"