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Where was Fox when she got the tatoo(tattoo, i can't spell at the moment) over her eye? I'm just a stinker for rephrasing questions in ways that are harder to give a Smart Assed response to. I'm the one that killed the "marks on hardwood floors" question.
Why do you dare me?
"Where was Fox when she got the ... tattoo ... over her eye? "
In a good personal space.
My ramble on "Upgrade".
I'll confess, for a start, that "Upgrade" isn't one of my favorite episodes, due mostly to the fact that it seemed much more like a half-hour "slugfest" than is generally the case with "Gargoyles" (although, given that we're dealing with the Pack here, I suppose it's inevitable - they're not the most subtle antagonists out there, after all). But it had some parts of it that I rather liked.
The transformations of Jackal, Hyena, and Wolf definitely freaked me out. In fact, the first time that I saw this episode, I tried to believe, for a while, that Jackal and Hyena were simply wearing fancy mechanical armor, but the evidence against that was too strong; I had to face the facts, in the end, and realized that they'd become cyborgs. And that definitely chilled me. (In Wolf's case, I didn't even have the option of finding an alternative explanation; it was too obvious that he'd been mutated.) Those three had permanently changed, on the physical level, from what they'd been in "The Thrill of the Hunt". They were no longer fully human. In fact, to me, the real significance of their alterations in "Upgrade" wasn't what you'd pointed out (they need to be upgraded so that it won't be too easy for the gargoyles to take them down - though I did see that there) but rather the way that the three of them were growing less human, their physical transformation being almost an outward sign of their increasing degeneracy.
By contrast, I liked Dingo's refusal to become physically upgraded, and horror at what his teammates had done to themselves. In fact, that was definitely when I began to like Dingo, as opposed to seeing him as just another member of the Pack (as he'd been to me up until then). (It certainly echoed my response to their transformations, which, I suspect, was how most of the audience was similarly responding). I wasn't surprised, therefore, when he was no longer with the Pack in "Grief" afterwards, or when he was shown seeking to "go straight" in "Walkabout". This was definitely the point where we see the "break with Eastcheap" (I chose that particular phrase inspired by your idea of Dingo's real name being Harry Monmouth, and the parallel is definitely there - though I might add that I don't see any of his former Pack-mates being a Falstaff-figure - more on the level of Falstaff's associates like Bardolph or Pistol, perhaps, but not scaling the heights of comic genius of Sir John himself - not that they were meant to.)
We also see the definite introduction (though it'd been hinted at in "Leader of the Pack") of Hyena's interest in Coyote, which has to count as the most bizarre relationship in "Gargoyles"; even Jackal gets nauseated by it, and this is a guy whose idea of a good time is redesigning Goliath's features in his stone sleep.
One side-note: re Hyena's wondering aloud whether gargoyles taste like chicken. I've sometimes wondered why the phrase is "tastes like chicken" as opposed to "tastes like beef" or "tastes like pork", or "tastes like turkey". Just one of life's little mysteries, I suppose.
On the gargoyles' side, we get to see Brooklyn becoming the new second in command. I will admit that I honestly hadn't wondered about that issue until the episode came out. (I've occasionally wondered if Goliath didn't pick one before this episode had anything to do with it having last been filled by Demona, but that's probably a bit of a stretch.) I did think that Brooklyn fitted the role well, and liked the bit at the end where he admits that he's not in that big a hurry to take Goliath's place. And where Goliath offers the role to Hudson, but Hudson declines it.
I still get a kick out of Fox's little public service announcement: "Don't 'Pack' it in. Take the train." Pretty clever of her.
I don't find Officer Morgan's remark that troublesome; in fact, I found it quite amusing.
Incidentally, Xanatos's remark at the end about having found a true equal in Fox reminds me of your analysis of Theseus, where you saw him as having found his equal in the Amazon Queen Hippolyta/Antiope. It makes me wonder whether you'd included a little of your perception of Theseus and Hippolyta in Xanatos and Fox (whether consciously or otherwise). Come to think of it, there's even a slight connection between the two couples, via "A Midsummer Night's Dream".
Taking your points in reverse order:
One of the great ironies of the series is that the one character who truly builds a healthy relationship (prior to Broadway & Angela in "The Journey") is Xanatos. The BAD GUY.
Heavily influenced by "The Warrior's Husband" and "The Bull from the Sea", I do see Theseus and Antiope as being true equals and the correct match.
But I'm not sure that's influencing X & Fox so much as that ANY great man would WANT a great woman, not a trophy or showpiece or weak link. Xanatos would no more settle for a weak wife than he'd want Owen to throw a judo practice.
By the same token, Goliath loves and respects Elisa and Broadway loves and respects Angela. They are equals.
Maybe it's just the way I think the world should work.
"Tastes like chicken" has entered the vernacular, I think. I first heard it in reference to Rattlesnake meat, and at the time that may have been someone's sincere way to describe what the serpent tastes like.
But since then, I've heard the phrase applied to almost any exotic carnivorous matter. I've never heard beef, pork or turkey used the same way.
The degeneracy of Wolf, Hyena and Jackal was definitely part of our intent.
Hi Greg. Long-winded question, so bear with me.
One of the recurring themes of Western story-telling is that those who "tamper in God's domain", to borrow a phrase, will be struck down for their hubris. After the enterance of Frankenstein into our collective consciousness, one of the "rules" for Western literature is that Frankenstein must always be destroyed by his monster, for his arrogance in playing god.
The reason I bring this up, is that Xanatos is a man who seems to like playing god. And he has left a trail of monsters in his wake.
I'll ignore Jackal, Hyena, and Wolf for the purposes of this question, since it could be argued that they were already monsters who merely allowed their exteriors to be altered to match their true natures. (Although, it could also be argued that those three were tempted by David and his offers of power and vengeance, but at the end of the day, I still think they all damned themselves willingly)
I'd go so far as to even ignore the mutates, because even though they become monsterous looking, they really don't fit the bill as "monsters". They're just ordinary people who, by virtue of making some bad character judgements, find themselves with fur and wings. (Although it probably doesn't help Xanatos' karma any)
But even ignoring those two examples, you still have...
1. Coldstone. Such an obvious Frankenstein archtype that you joked about it. (The "It's alive! ALLLLLLLIVE!" sequence remains one of my favorites from the whole show) Of course, you could lay Coldstone at least partially at Demona's feet as well, so we'll move on.
2. Thailog. Grown in a lab, created with a mixture of different people, (Goliath's body and temper, Xanatos' mind and ethics, Sevarius'... libedo? Whatever accounts for Delilah) he turns almost immediately on his "fathers" You could call Thailog Sevarius' creature rather then Xanatos' except that David is the force behind his creation, and that Anton, for all his mad scientist posturing, could be seen as no more then a lab assistant, an Igor to David's Dr. Frankenstein.
3. The Coyote robot series. Xanatos' most personal "creature", the one to whom he gave his face (well, half of it) and voice. Loyal (?) to David for now, but unless forming the Ultrapack is David's idea, he presumably goes indepentant eventually. That, and we know he sets his sights on galactic domination in 2198, presumably not with his creator's blessing. (Then again, I could be wrong)
4. The Matrix. Created so that David and Fox could reshape the entire planet at their whim. If that's not arrogance, I don't know what is. Admittedly, I don't think it's becoming sentient along the way was part of the plan, and it's inclusion here might be a bit of a stretch, but I thought it was an example of Xanatos' hubris, if nothing else.
So, I guess, after all that lead up, my question is this: Would the pattern hold true? Would one (or all) of Xanatos' "creatures" come back to bite him in the ass later? As Elisa said "I wouldn't want Xanatos' karma."
There is a second part to this question, but I'll submit it separately, in case it's viewed as an idea.
Well, for starters, I'd argue your premise. Victor Frankenstein's life was certainly decimated by the monster he created and abandoned -- but he survived the experience, sadder and hopefully wiser.
Moreover, it was the abandonment that was his true sin in Mary Shelley's original work. The creation was certainly hybris. But Shelley is pretty darn clear that she viewed the abandonment as worse. And I tend to agree. It's nature vs. nurture. The creature wasn't created evil. He was driven to it.
As to X's karma and whether it will all come back to bite him in the ass, I think the answer is clearly yes. But I really see it as a separate question. That is, it is a karma question more than simply a playing god question. That's one element. But only one. After all, one might argue that David and Fox were playing god by bringing Alexander into the world. But I wouldn't argue that. And I'm sure that's not what you had in mind.
So let's go through the numbers.
I tend to agree that Wolf, Hyena and Jackal built their own cages. And for the record, seem quite happy to live in them.
The Mutates seem to be following the same path as the gargoyles themselves. That is to say, that Xanatos woke the gargoyles, and has often suffered for it since. He then turned these four humans into mutates, and has had to suffer a bit (though admittedly not much) for that. It will be interesting to see Talon's post-Hunter's Moon reaction to Goliath and Co. moving back into the Castle. But the larger truth is that Talon, Maggie and Claw are making lives for themselves.
1. Coldstone. Well, yeah, duh. This is our Frankenstein's monster. But as with most things, Xanatos is too smart to truly follow in Victor's footsteps. He helps create the creature -- and certainly uses it -- but he never simply abandons it. And he also tries to balance (or bury) the Karmic scales, by helping out with Coldstone's Multiple Personality Disorder and by building Coldsteel and Coldfire.
2. Thailog. Here's the big threat, frankly. A guy with something to prove and three fathers to prove it all to. I think Xanatos hasn't seen the last of Thailog. One could argue that Thailog is the only guy to ever beat Xanatos at his own game (in Double Jeopardy). So the hybris of creating him has already bitten X's ass. But I doubt Thailog is through.
3. Coyote... I just don't want to reveal too much on this right now. Sorry.
4. I really think you have to chalk Matrix up to Fox's hybris (and competitive spirit) rather than to David's. She was certainly having the Matrix engineered for her and her man, but that doesn't mean that Xanatos was behind it. That would assume that she cannot operate independently. And I sure as heck wouldn't assume that about her.
So the short answer: yes. But it's all very nuanced.
When Titania whispered to Fox, is visibly irked Fox. I don't even think it was anything as big as you say it is. Titania probably just told her "That shirt makes you look fat", it probably has nothing to do with the future of Gargoyles and that's why you feel we all might be disappointed. This was all just part of your Master Plan to keep us guessing and coming back, wasn't it?!
(So concludes Siren feeble attempt at irking Greg to come out with it already) ;)
No. Not originally, anyway. It's you guys who have built it up and intimidated me into silence, frankly.
Ok greg this has been puzzling me for a long time.
What does titania whisper to fox when her and oberon leave back to avalon after they give her baby back? She whispers something to her. First you think it is a kiss. But its a whisper. Now I know a whisper when I hear one. *L*
Can you answer this riddle/question?
Yes, I can.
Was the fact that Fox was the only heir to one of Xanatos's biggest competitors have anything to do with his marrying her or does he actually love her?
As it turns out, as demonstrated in "Eye of the Beholder", BOTH.
Certainly Fox's "compatibility" included her coming inheritence. But Xanatos soon discovered that he actually loved her. Remember?
Suppose I used the phoenix gate to travel back in time to plant an undetectable bug [while no person was watching and no person caught me] where I could record the conversation between Titania and Fox. If I was to play a recording of that conversation, what would I get?
The answer to your question.
Just wanted to say Happy Birthday! Mine was yesterday, so it's easy for me to remember when yours is. Don't know how it is for you, but birthdays have taken on a little stronger meaning for me since the tragedy. I'm old enough that I start to think of birthdays a bit cynically (one year older, etc... I'm 29, BTW), but there are a lot of people won't have any more birthdays ever, so I'm very grateful to be home celebrating with my family and other people I care about. Hope you're doing the same. All the best to you and your family in the year to come!
P.S. Now, can you tell us what Titania whispered to Fox? Just kidding. ;)
My birthday was over eight months ago, and I can honestly say I don't really remember it. I think I was still in a haze.
But thanks for the good-wishes.
And P.S. No.
In "Eye of the Beholder" Fox briefly see Elisa as her human self, and then attack her -- and you said it was "It's both a manifestation of Fox's own self-loathing (amplified by the Eye), and an attempt for the Eye to gain control by having her symbolically destroy her humanity."
My question is, what do you mean by self loathing? Why did Fox loath herself? Is this a temporary result of being controlled by the Eye, or is it deeper loathing that was there before the Eye came to her.
Another Fox question, How did Fox and Xanatos meet?
Was Fox a professional mercenary before the PACK, or act in that capacity with the PACK before their run in with the Gargoyles?
Final Fox question *^_^* -- When Goliath said the Eye made her MORE herself, what did he mean by that? That being a big were-fox/wolf creature was Fox's true nature? Goliath and the Archmage didn't turn into beasts, just suped up versions of theirselves. But Fox went animal kingdom on us. Do you have some behind the scenes thoughts you would share with us on that?
Basically, I just like Fox, so any thought you have on her that you would express would be appreciated *^_^*
Thanks you for taking the time to read my questions!
1. I think Fox has some issues. The fact that even when she is in love, she thinks she can't love or be loved, that she doesn't deserve love, etc. is central to her problems. Her parents and their relationships to her and each other play in too. I don't want to go into much more depth here or now.
2. Story for another day.
3. X created the Pack around Fox. She did some 'professional' work, before its creation.
4. Well, let's begin with the notion that Goliath is one character and doesn't necessarily speak for me. But I think what he was getting at was her beastial, predatory nature.
on Fox and David Xanatos's Marriage certificate/license, who signed as witnesses to their marriage? i mean, traditionally its the Best Man and Maid of Honor, but we can see why that wouldn't work...
did Owen sign it? did Petros?
also, i apologize if this was asked before, but, was Halcyon Renard or Anastasia invited to the wedding? if so, why didn't they come?
1. Owen, probably.
2. I think not. Partially, because Fox was semi-estranged from her father at least. But MOSTLY because of the instructions Xanatos got from himself. Neither Fox or Xanatos are sentimental enough (at least not that they'd admit) to risk having either of Fox's parents there, when potentially they might interfere.