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A question about Xanatos's attempts to capture the clan in "The Edge" and "Re-awakening".
Xanatos's original goal for the gargoyles was to serve as his henchmen, the purpose for which he awakened them in "Awakening". However, after they discovered his true purpose for them, that prospect was clearly no longer an option. Xanatos seems to have, for the most part, recognized that, since a lot of his schemes after "Awakening" turned towards making his own gargoyles (the Steel Clan, the Mutates, Thailog) who would be more willing to serve him. But in "The Edge" and "Re-Awakening", he still attempts to capture Goliath and his clan, even though he was clearly aware that the ship had sailed on their continuing to work for him.
In "The Edge", of course, Xanatos had other goals besides just capturing the gargoyles or discovering their hiding place (giving the Eye of Odin to the MOMA and then stealing it back so that he could enjoy the benefits of donating the Eye and still have it in his possession, testing his gargoyle armor, testing himself against Goliath to make certain that he wasn't losing his edge), and in the case of "Re-Awakening", Xanatos clearly had uses for Coldstone other than fighting the gargoyles (as the raid on the Golden Bakery Building in "Legion" made clear). But the fact that he was still making a major objective of capturing the gargoyles in both of those stories indicates that he still wanted the clan.
Since (as I mentioned above) Xanatos knew by this time that the gargoyles were on to him and that he couldn't hope to dupe them again into, say, stealing technology from rival corporations, what was he hoping to achieve by taking the clan prisoner? Did he have other plans for having the gargoyles work for him than duping them? Or (as "The Price" suggests) did he have plans for making the gargoyles useful to him that didn't require their being his henchmen?
Contingencies under contingencies. Plans upon plans. That's our boy David. I wouldn't rule out the notion that he still hoped to turn them back to his side. I certainly buy into the idea, that in any case he wanted them under his control, under his eye, beholden, on his property, etc.
Kinda like the way things turned out at the end of Hunter's Moon, you know?
Some thoughts on our favorite characters and love.
So far in the "Gargoyles" Universe, the characters that all in real true love all have a deep understanding for one another. David and Fox understand each other better than anyone else on the planet does, and David acknowledges her as his equal. Maybe both of them didn't understand themselves well enough to think they were not that capable of such emotions, but they knew each other.
Goliath and Elisa are similar, it was clear even early on that they had something there, they grew to trust each other with their lives. There was always respect, and they understand one another, even when they disagree.
Likewise with Broadway and Angela, he saw her for who she was, unlike Brooklyn. All these characters seem to in a way share the same soul.
Now in regards to Demona, she's failed in love twice because that deep, emotional, soul sharing understanding faded as in the case with Goliath, but even before then she went behind his back, tried to push him to seize leadership of the clan, which he would not do, and could never understand why he put up with the humans. Not that she didn't understand him, in some cases she knew him only too well, since she saw the sparks between Goliath and Elisa long before they realized they were there. As far as Thailog goes, she thought that he was the Goliath she always wanted, and turned out to be flat out wrong, since he just planned to use her (in more ways than one) and finally discard her when he was done.
You've said in the past that Demona will have two more great loves, what will be interesting to see is by standards set by other characters where there is a similar "sharing of the soul" as it were. This deep, emotional understanding and knowing of one another. Problem is, it would be very hard for anyone to truly know her without having experienced similar tragedies. Everyone has their tragedies, but how many people have been alive for centuries, being hunted, bearing strong grudges and longer hatreds. Demona is her own worst enemy, and is likely to sabotage such things, and that's on the big assumption that she even opens herself up to anyone again.
One or both of those next great loves had better truly be someone special, if she's going to come out of her shell and really learn to care for someone intimately again.
Well... having nothing to do with my plans, I'm not sure I agree with your final premise. Whether a character -- any character -- truly loves somebody can in fact be independent of that somebody's worth.
Love can be selfless. Love can be unrequited. Love can be lavished on someone unworthy.
I'm not talking about my plans for Demona here. Just cautioning you not to get ahead of yourself in making predictions based on facts not in evidence.
But I do agree that true and lasting love works best when it's between individuals who understand and respect each other first.
This is just an observation. I've watch Gargoyles on Toon Disney and have seen the story arc "City Of Stone" before and after the 9/11 attacks. The thing I've noticed is the word "terrorist" is silenced out of the dialogue between Goliath and the Weird Sisters. Don't know if this is also a trait in the DVD. I won't ask why, because the reason is obvious.
The DVDs are, to my knowledge, uncut.
Finally aquiring the Gargs dvd has gotten my mind spinning on the possibility of the story's return in any format, but specifically television, and what kind of audience and content it would aim for.
I am watching temptation right now, and the first part of it is fairly heavy material. Demona showing Brook domestic trouble, violence and her general talk of humanity's evil (which i have taken to heart, she's right you know) wouldn't get past S&P or any such triff nowadays. Censorhip seemed to get in the way back in 94 as well, there are examples i could site but that would take a long time. I'll just say mobsters aren't really known for using tear gas in high jacking, at least if the supranos is any indication. The only recent show i can think to compare to Gargs is X-men Evolution, and Justice League, one is cancled and the other I've never seen on Saturday morning but rather prime time weekends.
The point and question it raises are thus: Gargoyles was always more mature than any north american animation of it's time, and television content limitations for the age bracket Gargs was originally intended for have gotten more restrictive.
If it was your choice, what kind of maturity level in terms of target audience and content would you aim for?
My opinions:With disney no doubt s&p would be cutting out everything not soft and fuzzy if it was intended for the 6 to 12 set again (or whatever demographic it was, don't remember). The fan base, such as myself is 10 years older and hopefully has matured accordingly. I would think the show itself would work best as an action drama on the same level as say, Angel, 24 or even some anime like Inuyasha.
It's all speculative, but the dvd release gives one hope we'll see the Gargoyles animated again.
I wouldn't mind. But honestly, I'm much more focused on the comic book right now. The audience for that is ideally the same as the audience for the original show... i.e. EVERYONE -- but not dumbed down for anyone. That is, was and will continue to be my preference.
Hi, my best friend got me the DVD for Christmas. I was so happy, when I got home I played it writhe away and was not disappointed. I love the commentaries and the behind the scenes stuff. Thank to Disney for relising the best animanted series to us. I can't wait for the second season! Thanks Greg for creating the series and I hope u will do more commentaries and the second season. Demona is my favourite character. Goliath's voice is cool, I was surprise to see that he (I forgot the actor's named) has the same voice. It was so perfect for Goliath.
Keith David is a talented man.
I have some questions about the way gargoyles were treated by the law over the time.
1)Were they treated equal to humans under...
a)Prince Malcolm's rule.
b)Princess Katharina's rule.
c)Anywhen in the future... maybe through the miniority status they have in 2198
To be extreme, would a human be punished for killing a gargoyle(or a gargbeast) as a garg would be for killing a human?
2)What is the position to the clan leaders(Goliath for example) to this? After all it is their right in the clan to judge about the different clan members.
If you're looking for specific codification in the past, you're not going to find it.
1a. I'd say they were generally treated better under Malcolm's rule.
1b. They were tolerated, barely.
1c. The future's yet to to come. But they received some protections under the previously mentioned Gargoyle Minority Protection Act.
I assume you're asking whether or not a human would be punished BY HUMANS for killing a gargoyle or whether a garg would be punished BY HUMANS for killing a human. As you may know, I'm not big on hypotheticals. But to cut to the chase, things were dark in the Dark Ages. Things are theoretically more "civilized" in the future. But "civilized" does not necessarily equate with "justice".
2. I'm not sure what you're asking here.
And my name is really Greg. :) My question refers to Tom's search for Goliath. If I'm remember correctly, Tom left Avalon every 100 years to search for Goliath. So basically, Tom left Avalon 10 times. One brief point; through calculation, I determined that 41.67 years past for Tom and the others on Avalon, while 1000 years past for those outside. In "Avalonian Years", Tom left the island approximately every 4 years to search (I hope I'm correct on those points). Any thoughts on where Avalon sent him those 10 times and how long before he was sent back to Avalon?
Tom did not leave Avalon every 100 years to search for Goliath. Tom left to see if he felt it would be safe for the Gargoyles to return to the outside world.
I have very concrete ideas about most of Tom's trips. But I'm not going to reveal them at this time.
Thanks for the early Christmas present in the form of the ramble on "The Green", Greg!
One thing that stands out to me now about this episode is that we get another look at the difference between Jackal and Hyena. Hyena just wants to charge in on the Mayan gargoyles and wipe them out. Jackal, rather than going for a simple all-out attack, comes up with an actual strategy, namely, having Hyena destroying the Mayan Sun Amulet so that he can then dispose of the clan while it's in stone sleep. Again showing that he's the more cunning one.
(I liked your method of having Jackal winding up attacking the gargoyles at night after that - when Vogel uses a bit of his own cunning and points out to Jackal that he won't get paid as much if the Mayan gargoyles do more damage to the Cyberbiotics operation - meaning that now Jackal doesn't have the option of just waiting for dawn after all, not if he wants a full paycheck!)
And I get a kick out of their response to Goliath showing up - "Must Goliath follow us everywhere?" "Hey, he's a fan!"
In some ways, Jackal's fantasy about altering Goliath's features is even more disturbing than his death-god phase in "Grief". Truly chilling.
The episode may be a bit on the preachy side (I know that many of the fans see it that way), but I think that it still has a good message. I particularly liked Elisa's uneasiness with the Mayan gargoyles' tactics and wanting to find a way of saving the rain forest that was within the law - and at the end, coming up with the solution of planting some of the rain forest plants on Avalon.
I find the "Quetzalcoatl" design for Zafiro interesting, in that it fits in with one additional aspect of gargoyles that revealed itself during the World Tour. Before the World Tour, we'd simply seen gargoyles in a "conventional gargoyle" form. However, when we were introduced to other gargoyles during Goliath's odyssey (and even the legacies of other gargoyles), we saw that they'd inspired other myths and legends besides just the familiar gargoyles of medieval Europe - unicorns and griffons in "M.I.A.", the "black dogs" of the British Isles in "The Hound of Ulster", and now Quetzalcoatl. (Not to mention that the Ishimura gargoyles of "Bushido" also have a certain evocation of tengu about them.) It gives an additional dimension to them that I think is neat.
I'd caught the significance of Broadway using "mothers" and how that fits into gargoyle parentage.
That was a nice touch about Broadway and Lexington considering the possibility of destroying the Sun Amulet - but, fortunately, not doing so after all.
Again, thanks for the ramble.
You're welcome. Thanks for yours too.
There was, at one time, when I resisted making the change from VHS to DVD. I thought I couldn't justify the cost, but as time went on and the VHS format grew increasingly rare and obsolete, I switched. Now, about four years later, Gargoyles has been released on DVD and I couldn't be happier I made that decision.
The video quality is the first thing everyone notices; a crisp, clean, sharp picture without any noticeable grain or fuzziness that most of us had to do with when watching our well-used VHS copies. Every frame is spotless, and only suffers when the animation itself is subpar (which in itself is rare). In an age when most cartoons are produced using computers, Gargoyles breathes new life into fully two dimensional animation. Everything, from the lush painted backgrounds (going from ancient Scotland to modern Manhattan and beyond), the characters, their designs and fluidity of motion, is all hand drawn and looks as good as ever.
But what really stands out is the sound. I have a home theater system and while most animation, even high-quality anime, doesn't match up, Gargoyles utilized all five of my speakers to their full extent, even at times the subwoofer. Voices in tunnels and enclosed spaces had echoes, growls shook the room, and muted sound effects and off-screen dialogue were just as clear. It was like watching it for the first time.
The extras are very well done, and more than I expected for a release that didn't seem to have the best sales drive behind it compared to a lot of other Disney home video releases. Greg Weisman's commentary was informative and fun to listen to, but disappointing in the fact he only got to do the first five episodes. And the Gathering of the Gargoyles was a well-edited featurette, and I was able to put a lot of faces to names I know in the fandom.
The packaging was surprisingly well done. The case, cover, discs and, whereas a lot of big name releases don't even have them, it even included a chapter insert (or in this case, an episode insert).
In short, this was an incredibly well put together collection that holds promise for the much larger second season, and I hope it'll be soon in coming.
Thanks. I think it turned out well myself.
My DVD-Set arrived finally oversea.
I think it is just great and I'm very happy that I finally can retire my worn videotapes.
I hope that we get audio commentaries for the whole second season. There's just one fly in the soup: I'd really like to have a German version, because the German synchro is just as great as the English one and it would be a real pity if it never sees a DVD release.
I've never heard it. (Not that I'd understand it if I did.)