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Rewatched "Hunter's Moon" yesterday (Sunday) on DVD - all three parts.
I've mentioned before spotting a lot of mentions of hunting, usually applied to humans going after gargoyles with hostile intent, and it struck me that this made it appropriate that the Hunters would be the gargoyles' adversaries in the finale. (Well, the Disney Afternoon finale/Season Two finale.)
And it struck me that the Hunters were the most dangerous opponents that the gargoyles faced in modern times, judging by results. They blew up the clock tower, destroying the gargoyles' home, and then exposed them to the public. The former was partly undone by the gargoyles getting their old home (the castle) back by the end of the episode, but not the latter - now the gargoyles are facing an alarmed public (even though they're safe at the end - for the moment). None of the gargoyles' other adversaries in modern times have been able to inflict that much damage on them. To top it, you'd have to go back to 994 and the Wyvern Massacre.
A few things that struck me this time around:
Goliath and Elisa are actually openly speaking to each other and even sharing a brief embrace on board the passenger train, just after foiling the robbery; fortunately, the passengers apparently didn't notice that.
Hudson greets the returning gargoyles as "lads" - then quickly adding in "And lassie, of course", for Angela. It reminded me of his use of just "lads" for the younger gargoyles in "Possession" that I mentioned in my post on it - apparently he's getting more adjusted now to Angela's presence in the clan.
The trio's clash with Demona in Part One seems the last "trio action" in the series; they're increasingly split up (or else acting with the rest of the clan present) after this.
Lexington and Brooklyn's shared uneasy glances when they return to the clock tower with Goliath near the end of Part Two seemed all the stronger when I realized "the audience knows that Robyn and Jon survived Goliath's fight with them, but Lex and Brooklyn don't - from their perspective, Goliath had apparently killed those two."
Jon Canmore's cry about the gargoyles when he's facing Jason at the end, "They killed dad!", struck me as a sign of how (even before shooting Jason) he was losing it; it was Demona who killed Charles Canmore, none of the Manhattan clan were even present at the event, and Jon was there so he knows it.
Broadway shows how much his attitude towards reading has changed since the start of "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time" when he's talking to Angela about how great the castle library is (and we'll see them there together in "The Journey").
This story really does seem like a good conclusion for the series in so many ways - the gargoyles are back in the castle again, their war with Xanatos is (seemingly) over, they'd defeated Demona's big scheme to wipe out humanity, Elisa finally admitted her feelings for Goliath and even kissed him. Except there's a big loose end with the gargoyles' existence being made public, and most of the New Yorkers aren't too happy about it. (Brooklyn's "And so it begins" remark does also support the feeling that the story could continue past this spot.) But it certainly makes a good season finale.
Oh, and I counted the number of "claw-mark transitions" in the entire two seasons during this review - 28 in all.
We were pretty happy with it.
What motivated Duncan to take on the role of the hunter?
He understood the value of intimidation.
Why didn't Stuart Canmore chase after Demona after she escaped the net in the flashback at the start of Hunter's Moon Part 2? She was just a couple feet away when she got out of the water.
I'd have to look again, I suppose, since it's been awhile, but as I recall, she was behind him, and he didn't spot her.
Did the Hunters ever interacted with any of the Children of Oberon? If so, what's their opnion about them?
SPOILER REQUEST. NO COMMENT.
This is a Gargoyles a question.
Where did the Canmores get their resources for their weapons and technology? Obviously, they amassed wealth over the centuries, but how did they do it? What businesses? The original Hunter was an Assassin for Duncan. Did any of the other Hunters do assassin/mercenary work since it involves the same skill set as hunting gargoyles"
After Gillecomgain, the Hunters were members of the Royal family. Beyond that, SPOILER REQUEST. NO COMMENT.
1. Does John Castaway know his Aunt Fiona is an Illuminatus?
2. On your timeline you wrote that the Illuminati approached the Canmores seeking an alliance and Jason turned them down:
Was this Fiona?
1. SPOILER REQUEST. NO COMMENT.
2. SPOILER REQUEST. NO COMMENT.
This is something I've wondered for a while. We know the Hunters came to Manhattan to investigate all the gargoyle sightings. But what exactly led Robyn Canmore to Dominique Destine? Why did it occur to her that this French immigrant CEO was worth investigating? I understand that she's never been seen at night, but how did that get her on Robyn's radar?
I get why Jon decided to impersonate a reporter for his investigation, and the Hunter's Moon deleted scene explained why Jason decided to go "undercover" in the 23rd precinct. But when I zoom back and pretend I don't know who Dominique Destine really is, I wonder what led Robyn there.
The timing and location of the incorporation of Nightstone Unlimited. (Not to mention the name.)
One time you said that the Renaissance Hunter's name was Blank Canmore. Was what a joke? If so, can you give us his name?
It was a joke. His name is Stuart Canmore.
So I'm watching "City of Stone" again, one of my favorite storylines, and I'm wondering, how on earth could a young MacBeth not realize Gillecomgain was the Hunter who killed his father?
I mean, clearly they know each other, and the Hunter is wearing a mask that has markings the exact same shape of Gillecomgain's giant scars. Doesn't seem like the best disguise.
Asked and answered already. Check the archives.
At what point in history did the Canmore clan start letting women take part in the Hunt? Was Fiona the first?
Fiona was not the first, but I'm not going to answer the larger question at this time.
Why did you give Jason darker skin than Robyn and Jon? Was it so the viewers wouldn't mix him and Jon up?
Does Jason have darker skin?
Hey Greg! I know you've been mostly dealing with Spidey queries lately, but hopefully you won't mind "kickin' it old school" so-to-speak and answering a Gargoyles question.
I'd been taking a Shakespeare course this semester at school, and I chose to write a paper on Shakespeare's Macbeth's influence on yours. (I got an A by the way). Anywhoozle, obviously this meant re-watching some Of the Mac-centric episodes, including of course the wonderful "City of Stone", which as it alway does, reminded me of how much I love Macbeth's complex backstory and that of the legacy of The Hunter.
Now I did search the archives before asking this, so I know the Canmores in "Hunters Moon" were not aware of Macbeth, but I couldn't find if you had said whether or not HE was aware of THEM.
Was he as of "Hunter's Moon?" And if not, is he aware of them as of "The Rock" in the comics?
I'd guess Macbeth has encountered a Canmore or two over the years. But it's not canon 'til it's canon.
Review of BG#2:
Solid, solid issue. Overall, I can see why you said this LS is a slow boil; it's not all the way there yet, but it's definitely heating up, and in a good way. Somehow a lot more seems to HAPPEN this issue that is relevant and on-target to the series (then again, it might just be that I like Yama more than Dingo and Matrix), and it really leaves me wanting more.
In terms of the art, I'm really digging the decision to do BAD GUYS in black and white. I'm sure it was mostly a financial decision, but I think the atmosphere it brings is more appropriate to the subject matter than the atmosphere a colored comic would evoke. And Charlebois definitely seems to have found her groove here; she seems slightly more comfortable this issue, and it gives us some truly spectacular art from start to finish. The shading is also phenomenal, especially in the scene where Hunter and co. capture Yama.
Things I really liked:
-Fang's face in the first panel of page 3. It's easy to forget that he used to be a normal guy and is not, in fact, accustomed to putting his life in danger at regular intervals and fighting crazy huge robots. He looks scared, which I think gives a little insight into the character. Then him running away gives even more, but, you know. It's the little things.
-The whole Yama/Sora scene. That tugs at the heartstrings. And it's so telling when Sora says "Ask me to go with you" and Yama says "Bushido demands that I do not." He WANTS to ask her so badly; he doesn't say so, but the evasiveness of his answer gives him away. And yet he loves her too much to do that to her. And she loves him enough to know that she has to let him go it alone, or that'll be something else that'll eat at his heart. Poor them. (Also, major props to Charlebois' art in that panel--Yama's face is just tortured.) How long had they been mates when Yama was banished?
-I also love the characterization of Kai here. Stern, not really angry, just disappointed. Perfectly right.
-It'll be interesting to see how Matrix develops; he seems uberpowerful, so it'll be fun to see him in situations that test him, or where he can't just power through.
-What did Yama do between his banishment and his recruitment? Boy loves his toys, that's for sure.
-Hunter's too funny. "Want something done right..." I'm thinking she doesn't so much think highly of Dingo's skills. I do wonder how much of her "Gargoyle knowledge" is educated guesswork, although she sure seems to have a lot of knowledge of bushido. Also, I love that even when Yama has his sword on her throat she's got a gun aimed between his eyes. Now THAT is a kickass, take-no-prisoners, strong woman.
-I love Yama's snark re: the accent. But I also read him as very hopeless, not caring all that much what happens to him. And it just gets worse. He looks so crestfallen when he realizes he's being coerced; I feel for the dude. His big chance at redemption, to get back with his clan...and joining this group won't really redeem him. And yet he still has to do it. And he's too unforgiving of himself to consider forced work in exchange for protecting his clanmates penance. Dude's got STANDARDS.
-Hunter's a smart leader. I think she feels more of a kinship to Yama than Dingo, which accounts for part of it, but she handles them very differently and it's very appropriate for each character. (She handled Dingo and Matrix differently and well, too, come to think of it.) I'm starting to wonder about the dynamic of her and her siblings, who was ACTUALLY the leader and got stuff done.
Really, really looking forward to #3....
Jason was the leader. Robyn got stuff done.
Do you have a name for Gillecomgain's father? There has been a request to make a page for him on the GargWiki and it'd be easier with a name.
I just did some quick research (Kathy Pogge would be proud of me) and came up with Maíl Brigti.
In "Hunter's Moon Part Two", when the Canmores are debating whether or not to attack the clock tower, Robyn Canmore explains that they can't simply go in and smash the gargoyles in their stone sleep during the daytime, because they might have learned from Demona how to become human during the day. The Hunters then talk uneasily about how the gargoyles could turn into humans and there'd be no way of telling what they really are then.
I realized this evening, when I remembered that scene, how this echoes the nature of the Hunters themselves. Because they wear those hooded masks to conceal their true identities, it's similarly almost impossible to tell that they're Hunters in their everyday lives; even Elisa never realizes that her new partner is one of the Hunters until she unhoods him at the start of Part Three. Since you've mentioned before about how one of the keys to making a great antagonist is to give him or her qualities that echo the nature of the protagonist - was the Hunters' discussion about how the gargoyles, if they could take on human form, could blend in with the human population without being recognized, intended as a means of reflecting their own double identities?
Generally, yes. More specifically it was about me trying to build John Castaway (long term) into the anti-Demona or another Demona or however you want to put it. Which is the mask? The Quarryman hood or the slicked back hair and mustache?
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Vinnie's driver's license is revoked when he claims gargoyles smashed his motorcycle into a wall.
Elisa receives the Trio's Halloween costumes. Matt, still in Dracon's custody, finds out that Mace's Silver Falcon letter has nothing to do with the Illuminati. But he decides that if he ever gets out of this situation alive, he'll continue his hunt for Mace.
With Lex's help Goliath tracks the Hunters to an upstate hydroelectric dam. Goliath and Broadway battle the Hunters. Elisa tries to break up the fight, but she and Jason seemingly fall off the dam to their deaths. That day, Robyn and a vengeful Jon manage to decrypt Demona's disk and learn about her plan. The Praying Gargoyle will protect her and her kind, while the Medici Tablet, the D/I-7 and the CV-1000 will blend science and sorcery to destroy humanity. Meanwhile, some distance below the dam, Jason manages to pull Elisa to safety. The night of the Hunter's Moon, Demona, the Hunters, the gargoyles, the NYPD's Gargoyles Taskforce (GTF), the press and many bystanders all converge at St. Damien's Cathedral in Manhattan. While Demona prepares her spell, the Hunters and the other gargoyles fight. Jason and Elisa arrive, trying to call a truce. But Jon refuses. He shoots at Goliath but badly injures Jason instead. Jon flees. Goliath stops Demona by destroying the Praying Gargoyle, forcing her to abandon her plan or die herself. Demona flees, but the GTF has the rest of the gargoyles dead to rights. Suddenly, Xanatos shows up and rescues them.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Officer Morgan is transferred to the 23rd Precinct.
Matt Bluestone questions G.F. Benton, unaware that the man is really Dominic Dracon. Matt follows a lead from "Benton" to the location of the old Silver Falcon speakeasy, where he's captured by Tony Dracon.
The Hunters trace Goliath back to the Clock Tower and blow it up. One of the Hunters pulls Elisa from the police precinct. She removes his mask and recognizes her new partner, Jason. He drugs her and leaves her in her apartment. Meanwhile, the explosion causes Maria Chavez to break her leg. The gargoyles barely survive, and Hudson and Lex are badly injured. Jon Canmore has the opportunity to destroy them, but he allows them to flee the Clock Tower. Unfortunately, Robyn forces Jon to blame the gargoyles for the Clock Tower's destruction on the television news. Now the entire city knows they exist and is hunting for them. The gargoyles hide out at Elisa's loft. That day, Elisa and Matt meet with Maria Chavez in her hospital room. They've discovered the Canmore siblings' true identities. Robyn breaks into Demona's vault, but Demona has already emptied it of everything but a computer disk. That night Goliath goes in search of the Hunters.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Reconstruction of the Eyrie Building's Castle is completed.
The Trio and Bronx fail to stop Demona from stealing the D/I-7. Worse yet, Goliath, Hudson and Angela are attacked by the Hunters. Angela is badly wounded. The gargoyles reconvene at the Clock Tower but are unsure if Angela will survive until dawn. Goliath vows vengeance on the Hunters. Elisa arrives just before sunrise and performs CPR, saving Angela's life. Later that morning, Dominique Destine introduces Robyn to Dr. Sevarius, who's created a carrier virus called CV-1000. Dominique places a sample of the virus in a vault beside the D/I-7, the Medici Tablet and the Praying Gargoyle. That night, Angela wakes from her stone sleep, healed. The gargoyles leave the Clock Tower to search for the Hunters. Elisa, having missed the Gargoyles, invites Jason to her loft for dinner. From her balcony, Goliath watches Jason and Elisa kiss. Angered, he, Brooklyn and Lex board the Hunter's craft alone. Once inside, they find Demona is also after the Hunters. All four gargoyles are captured, but allowed to escape.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Tom, Mary and other refugees are given shelter from rampaging Vikings at Castle Wyvern.
Michaelmas Eve. Tom and the Magus get the eggs out of Edinburgh Castle. Finella drugs Constantine so that Katharine can escape, and flees with the Princess, Tom, Mary, the Magus and the eggs. The Magus brings them all to the mystic island of Avalon. He is forced to battle the Weird Sisters to achieve the island. He turns them into owls but is unable to take the Grimorum with him. Finella and Mary agree to take the book and keep it safe from Constantine. They depart. Katharine, Tom and the Magus land on Avalon with the eggs. The two time-traveling Archmages witness all this and rescue the Weird Sisters from their owl-state. The Archmages and the Sisters form an alliance. They agree to meet again in the year 1020.
Vinnie Grigori is born in New York.
In Paris, Demona steals the Praying Gargoyle statue from Notre Dame Cathedral. Confronted by Charles Canmore, the Hunter, she kills him and escapes. Canmore's children, Jason, Robyn and Jon swear vengeance.
At midnight, Demona uses Titania's Mirror to summon Puck. They turn Elisa and all the humans in Manhattan into gargoyles and vice versa. The situation is soon reversed, but Puck arranges it so that Demona is human during the day and a gargoyle at night. Fox contacts Preston Vogel, inducing him to betray her father Halcyon Renard.
Xanatos and his robots track Coldstone down in the Himalayas and disable him.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Coldstone eventually winds up standing comatose in a storage room in the Clock Tower. Xanatos gets possession of R.E.C.A.P.'s remains, including the computer virus. Macbeth has a new Hunter's mask made for himself, but is distracted from his hunt for Demona by the anticipated arrival of The Scrolls of Merlin.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Lydia Duane and Arthur Morwood-Smyth discover The Scrolls of Merlin in Wales. Elisa confronts Derek about missing the previous Sunday's family dinner. He promises to contact her if he has any trouble with Xanatos. That night, Maggie the Cat is allowed to "escape" from Gen-U-Tech Systems. Brooklyn & Broadway find her and try to help, but she is more frightened of the gargoyles than her pursuers. She is recaptured and taken back to Gen-U-Tech. Owen later informs Xanatos and Derek of unusual expense reports coming out of Gen-U-Tech.
The Illuminati make contact with the Canmore family of Hunters, seeking an alliance. Jason turns them down.
Would you say that it was Demona's fault for creating the Hunter, since it was she who mutilated the young boy's face? I've heard that the boy had an inner darkness inside him, but didn't Demona bring it to the surface by attacking him that day?
Blame to go around.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Macbeth's forces are defeated. Thorfinn is killed at Dunsinane, widowing his young wife Ingibjorg. Canmore destroys all of Demona's gargoyles, except her. Canmore pursues Macbeth to Lunfanan, and history will record that Macbeth was killed there. But Macbeth and Demona discover a side effect of the Weird Sisters' spell. They are immortal and forever linked, feeling each other's pain when near. For either to die, one must kill the other. Prince Luach is able to rally his father's forces temporarily. Canmore is driven back. Luach is made High King of Scotland. Macbeth and Demona vanish severally into myth.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
With help from Demona and his cousin Thorfinn, Macbeth defeats Duncan's forces at the battle of Bothgoanan, near the town of Elgin in Moray, Scotland. Duncan is killed near Elgin. An unpopular king, he is not mourned by many. Duncan's son Canmore is banished and spirited away to England by Duncan's few remaining supporters. Canmore will become a protégé of Edward the Confessor, a Saxon. But he also becomes the new Hunter. For his own safety, Donald Ban is spirited away to Ireland.
Vinnie visits family.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Thailog has reached full gargoyle adolescence. A discoloration of skin and hair is the only side effect of the accelerated growth.
Attracted by multiple reports of gargoyle sightings in Manhattan, the Canmore siblings begin making inquiries and creating the false identities they will need to find Demona there and destroy her.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Canmore is crowned High King of Scotland as Malcolm III.
The Banshee informs Puck that the Gathering is at hand.
Hey Greg! Finally found the time to submit my tale/review on Clan Building: III - "Invitation Only." (I did a shorter version in the CR already).
Frankly, I was pretty anxious if I was going to be lucky enough to grab it on March 28, 2007, the day of the release. With the last two issues, the timing worked just right where I was able to buy them at my local comic book store in Phoenix. However, this issue was coming out while I was still at school in Los Angeles. Thus, I had to find a new comic shop QUICK. So the MINUTE I found out the release date, I asked anybody I knew if they had a reliable comic shop - and with a stroke of luck one of my buddies down the hallway in the dorm told me he went to one nearby for years, and was willing to give me a ride!
As I entered the shop, I rushed toward the wall where it said "New Releases" -- with a panic in my eyes when I DID NOT SEE IT!! Then a split second later, my good friend taps my shoulder and shows me a giant table where they place the new releases just released for all the customers to see . . . and right there, in the front of them all, was five or six copies of "Invitation Only." I snatched one quite quickly and ran to the register. My friend was quite amused by my giddyness (I've actually been showing him my Garg DVDs and we're currently at the point of "Protection").
I was able to restrain myself not to read my copy during the ride back so that I could thank him a bunch
Personally, I'm quite comfortable with Elisa sitting on the battlements, and thinking about it, after all she and Goliath have gone through, if she DID slip, Goliath - hurt or unhurt - would still jump to save her (he is a gentleman, after all).
I also loved Thailog's line at the end, clearly proving that radio announcer guy was COMPLETELY wrong! (In truth, I didn't notice this one on my own, until it was brought up in the Comment Room . . . nevertheless, I love it!)
Other random thoughts:
I love the invitation by the Xanatos family . . . I don't know, I just think the Eyrie Building rocks.
Alex is so cute in that costume (I'd love my kid to have one of those . . . heck, "I" want one of those!)
I do have a feeling Tri Chung is related to another Chung we may know one day . . . .
Love the clarification that it's Officer Morgan Morgan.
Love to hate Margot for being so "Margot-y" -- wonder what Brendan's doing??
Hacker is . . . wow. Cool to see him doing an Illuminati job of his that isn't just throwing Matt on wild goose-chases.
I'm curious if Jason is using his English or Scottish accent when talking to Elisa? Hmmm . . . .
Love the enchanted jewelry line -- Fox is such a great match for X.
Owen rocks, even though he's in just one panel.
I wonder where I can get a ring like Hacker's?? (and no, I won't visit the Hotel Cabal to earn one!)
I love the symmetric panel of Goliath and Elisa when talking about their relationship.
I love that little kid in the Labyrinth with the Superman "G" shirt. Wonder what that stands for?? :P
Love the whole flashback scene, and I know I'm going to be losing alot of those points in the Contest the CR had a couple of weeks ago . . . .
And finally, I enjoyed the more intelligent Castaway.
Once again, Greg, a thousand thanks for everything you've done for Gargoyles, even after ELEVEN years (I was eight when the show ended!) And seriously - May can't come soon enough . . . but after eleven years waiting, I think its possible, no?
What the DJ meant to say was, "If he says Trick or Treat he's obviously a clone!" (Kidding, kidding.)
Jason is, from his point of view, no longer affecting any accent, i.e. to Elisa, it's Scotish.
I do hope people are liking Castaway better now from these first three issues. This is the way I had always hoped to characterize him. Of course, if anyone prefers his Goliath Chronicle characterization, then... just don't tell me!
I just bought my copy of Gargoyles #3 today, and very much enjoyed the continuation of the story past "Hunter's Moon" and "The Journey" at last.
There were a great many treats in it. I enjoyed Agent Hacker's return. I'd wanted to see what would happen after the revelation that he was a member of the Illuminati (especially regarding his interactions with Matt), and now we get to see some of it. Matt clearly does not trust him still (and I can't say that I blame him). What got my attention all the more was that Hacker's description of the Illuminati's agenda towards the gargoyles differed according to whom he was talking to, in such a way as leads me to suspect that he's lying all three times about what the Society *really* wants with the gargoyles. (I certainly think that he was lying about the Illuminati wanting the gargoyles wiped out; I doubt that they're that wasteful.) I liked the "Thirty-six" "Thirty-two" greetings (at first, I thought that they were some sort of "identification number" within the Society, but when Hacker used the same numbers in speaking with Xanatos and Castaway, I abandoned that idea).
I was amused that you had Elisa speaking with both Officer Morgan *and* Jason Canmore in the events leading up to her talk with Goliath; am I correct in assuming that you were deliberately teasing there everyone who'd read your remarks about the "Double Date" story at "Ask Greg"?
I'm amazed that Elisa's sitting so calmly on the battlements during her talk with Goliath (even if she's clearly too busy thinking about other matters at the time); if I was up on the top of the Eyrie Building, I wouldn't dare even approach them, but would probably be clinging onto anything solid in the middle of the tower's platform!
I smiled at Talon's cry of "Send in the Clones!" (I guess that we all knew that somebody would have to say it at some point), and the omission of Fang's name when Al was explaining the Mutates' backstory. (Too bad he wasn't there to comment on it!) And Thailog makes a great return at the very end.
Other things that stand out to me: Alex in his little gargoyle suit (very cute), Hudson planning to take Bronx somewhere else during the party (a wise decision on his part, I believe), Xanatos's mysterious invitation to the White House (I'm looking forward to seeing how that develops), the new character in the Labyrinth (or is she really new? I'd say more but the "no original ideas" rule discourages me from voicing my suspicions about her as yet), Demona retrieving the Praying Gargoyle's crystal, Brooklyn's response to Delilah, and Castaway showing himself to clearly have much more sense than his "Goliath Chronicles" counterpart.
All in all, a wonderful continuation of the story. I'm looking forward to #4.
Hacker/Illuminati. I'm glad you got that. I was a little afraid that it would read as if the LAST statement Hacker made was the true one.
Morgan/Jason. I was teasing a little (meta-fictionally), but basically when it came time to write the story, I realized I NEEDED both of them to get Elisa where I needed her to go. Again, I was worried that it still might not be convincing. But it felt pretty right to me.
When did Canmore/The Hunter first attack Scotland?
How did Canmore find out about Macbeth and Demona's link? How did those rumors get started?
Think about it. Macbeth ages nearly twenty years in one night and suddenly has a gargoyle ally... Plus a few people knew about the "bargain" including Bodhe. Word was bound to get around. Not necessarily accurate word. But word.
I'd been eagerly awaiting Season 2, Vol. 1. Last month I finally got it and have been throughly enjoying it. So many of my favorite episodes were on here and to finally get a chance to view them again, cut and without the commericals has just been like a dream to me. I loved the commentary for City of Stone. It's always a treat to hear your thoughts and comments on these episodes. I laughed so much. I can't wait for the next volume.
I also wanted to thank you for another reason. A few months ago my dad was doing some family history and I noticed one of the names he had in the history. Malcolm Canmore. Needless to say I was greatly surprised. I knew that name, but only from Gargoyles. For a while I did a little research on him and now feel a little closer to my roots. I'm extremely grateful to you and your staff for bringing a bit of history into your show. If it weren't for you, I wouldn't have looked into my history at all. And never would have known more about the interesting people who have been in my family.
I'm also eagerly waiting for your comic series to be released.
There's nothing I really needed to know, but I just wanted a chance to thank you for all you do and the amazing effort you've poured into releasing this series. It meant a lot to me when I was younger and it still draws me in even now. Thank you so much!
Your thanks are much appreciated. So you're a Canmore, huh? No masks with three slashes on it in your sock drawer, are there?
What did the hunters, any of them, do when not directly hunting Demona. I mean, sometimes years had to pass between encounters, right? I guess I'm asking if the hood was ever brought out in other circumstances. (I hope this is vague enough not to be an idea in question form).
There was a lot of searching and training and prepping and amassing, etc.
If Donald Canmore was indeed the wellspring of the Hunter line and ancestor of Jason, Jon and Fiona how exactly did he sire children before his death at the young age of seventeen(1068-1085) or is this another misreporting of history similar to Macbeth actually being killed by Malcom Canmore or Malory and those writers before him leaving out gargoyles because of the prejudice of the time :) ?
Huh. The research I have indicates that Donald Canmore was born in 1069 and died in 1093. If that's wrong, it does screw me up a bit. I guess I'll need to triple check.
*Was the Renaissance Hunter a Canmore?
*If so what was his real name?
*Was he a direct ancestor of Jon, Jason and Robyn?
*If not does he have any descendent in the 21st and 20th century? If so what are the names of these descendents?
*Who designed his equipmented? Why did they resemble the stuff from Da Vinci's notebook?
*How did he know Demona was there in Italy to steal the tablet?
*Did he have any siblings or was he the only one in his family at the time?
*How exactly did he die?
*Did he ever see Demona again after that night?
*Who trained him? Or was he self trained?
2. Don't know.
3. Direct? Don't know.
4. Don't know.
5. I'll leave this to everyone's imagination.
6. Don't know.
7. Couldn't have been the only one.
8. Can't recall any specifics at this time.
9. Don't know.
10 The Canmore clan.
In "Hunters Moon" who were the voice actors for the hunters Jason, Robyn,and Jon Canmore?
Jason - Deidrich Bader
Robyn - Sheena Easton
Jon - Scott Cleverdon
just wondering... i havent seen all of TGC, so if this comes up in the show & i missed it... well, ops but
1)anyway, after hunters moon, what hapens 2 robyn canmore? does she keep tracking "the Demon" or what.
2) does jon canmore/castaway blame elesa at all for what hapened 2 jason
1. No, she's arrested and forced to join the "Bad Guys".
2. He's not fond of her.
What didn't Gillecomgain wear a mask to hide his scars ?
I know it's just a typo or something similar, but I'm honestly not sure what you're asking here.
Gillecomgain wore a mask to protect his secret identity as the Hunter. Granted a mask with red claw marks that matched the scars on his face might not seem like the greatest choice for a secret identity... but this was a long time ago, and the whole concept of secret identities must have been fairly new.
*No question, just answering Greg's August 2003 question*
1. Is Hunter's Moon a specific day or week of the year?
2. If so could you give us the date(s)?
In 1996, Hunter's Moon was on Saturday, October 26th. I doubt it's on the same night every year, since we operate on a solar, rather than a lunar calender. Anyone else know how this works?
recorded on 01-15-02
F7 Addict writes...
The Name of the moons are based on 12 lunar cycles per year, first is Jan or Wolf; 2 Feb or Storm; 3 Chaste; 4 Seed; 5 Hare; 6 Lover's; 7 Mead; 8 Wyrt; 9 Harvest; 10 Oct Blood or Hunter's moon; 11 Snow; 12 Oak. And on the odd chance of two full moons in a month, the second is called the blue moon.
So, if I'm getting you right the Hunter's Moon (a.k.a. the Blood Moon) is the first full moon of October. (Or the only full moon of October, most years.) Right?
Thanks. That's very helpful and useful. I'm writing this down.
So a couple more questions...
Do you know the origin(s) behind these names? And if so, what are they?
And what is a Wyrt?
recorded on 08-01-03
(Sorry for the large amount of text from previous posts and large amount of text to follow - just wanted to keep this in context for when you got a chance to see this whenever :) )
I did not bother looking up this information until you asked. Quite interesting really :)
-- You can read this information in a nicer format by following the "Source" links at the bottom of this post. I am merely copying sections in case those websites are unavailable at the time you have the opportunity to refer to this post --
"Full Moon names date back to Native Americans, of what is now the northern and eastern United States. The tribes kept track of the seasons by giving distinctive names to each recurring full Moon. Their names were applied to the entire month in which each occurred. There was some variation in the Moon names, but in general the same ones were current throughout the Algonquin tribes from New England to Lake Superior. European settlers followed that custom and created some of their own names. Since the lunar month is only 29 days long on the average, the full Moon dates shift from year to year."
Note the sentence that states there has been some variation in the moon names with different tribes, etc. That would explain why the list I am about to post is different in one or two months than the list previously given.
January Wolf Moon (aka Old Moon) "Amid the cold and deep snows of midwinter, the wolf packs howled hungrily outside Indian villages. Thus, the name for January's full Moon. Sometimes it was also referred to as the Old Moon, or the Moon After Yule. Some called it the Full Snow Moon, but most tribes applied that name to the next Moon."
February Snow Moon (aka Hunger Moon) "Since the heaviest snow usually falls during this month, native tribes of the north and east most often called February's full Moon the Full Snow Moon. Some tribes also referred to this Moon as the Full Hunger Moon, since harsh weather conditions in their areas made hunting very difficult."
March Worm Moon (aka Crow Moon, Crust Moon, Sugar Moon, Sap Moon) "Moon As the temperature begins to warm and the ground begins to thaw, earthworm casts appear, heralding the return of the robins. The more northern tribes knew this Moon as the Full Crow Moon, when the cawing of crows signaled the end of winter; or the Full Crust Moon, because the snow cover becomes crusted from thawing by day and freezing at night. The Full Sap Moon, marking the time of tapping maple trees, is another variation. To the settlers, it was also known as the Lenten Moon, and was considered to be the last full Moon of winter."
April Pink Moon (aka Sprouting Grass Moon, Full Egg Moon, Full Fish Moon)"This name came from the herb moss pink, or wild ground phlox, which is one of the earliest widespread flowers of the spring. Other names for this month's celestial body include the Full Sprouting Grass Moon, the Egg Moon, and among coastal tribes the Full Fish Moon, because this was the time that the shad swam upstream to spawn."
May Flower Moon (aka Corn Planting Moon, Milk Moon) "In most areas, flowers are abundant everywhere during this time. Thus, the name of this Moon. Other names include the Full Corn Planting Moon, or the Milk Moon."
June Strawberry Moon (aka Rose Moon, Hot Moon) "This name was universal to every Algonquin tribe. However, in Europe they called it the Rose Moon. Also because the relatively short season for harvesting strawberries comes each year during the month of June . . . so the full Moon that occurs during that month was christened for the strawberry!"
July Buck Moon (aka Thunder Moon, Hay Moon) "July is normally the month when the new antlers of buck deer push out of their foreheads in coatings of velvety fur. It was also often called the Full Thunder Moon, for the reason that thunderstorms are most frequent during this time. Another name for this month's Moon was the Full Hay Moon."
August Sturgeon Moon (aka Red Moon, Green Corn Moon) "The fishing tribes are given credit for the naming of this Moon, since sturgeon, a large fish of the Great Lakes and other major bodies of water, were most readily caught during this month. A few tribes knew it as the Full Red Moon because, as the Moon rises, it appears reddish through any sultry haze. It was also called the Green Corn Moon or Grain Moon."
September Harvest Moon* (aka Corn Moon, Barley Moon) "This is the full Moon that occurs closest to the autumn equinox. In two years out of three, the Harvest Moon comes in September, but in some years it occurs in October. At the peak of harvest, farmers can work late into the night by the light of this Moon. Usually the full Moon rises an average of 50 minutes later each night, but for the few nights around the Harvest Moon, the Moon seems to rise at nearly the same time each night: just 25 to 30 minutes later across the U.S., and only 10 to 20 minutes later for much of Canada and Europe. Corn, pumpkins, squash, beans, and wild rice the chief Indian staples are now ready for gathering."
*Note: The Harvest Moon is always the full Moon closest to the autumnal equinox. If the Harvest Moon occurs in October, the Sept full Moon is usually called the Corn Moon
October Hunter's Moon (aka Travel Moon, Dying Grass Moon) "With the leaves falling and the deer fattened, it is time to hunt. Since the fields have been reaped, hunters can easily see fox and the animals which have come out to glean."
November Beaver Moon (aka Frost Moon) "This was the time to set beaver traps before the swamps froze, to ensure a supply of warm winter furs. Another interpretation suggests that the name Full Beaver Moon comes from the fact that the beavers are now actively preparing for winter. It is sometimes also referred to as the Frosty Moon."
December Cold Moon (aka Long Nights Moon) "During this month the winter cold fastens its grip, and nights are at their longest and darkest. It is also sometimes called the Moon before Yule. The term Long Night Moon is a doubly appropriate name because the midwinter night is indeed long, and because the Moon is above the horizon for a long time. The midwinter full Moon has a high trajectory across the sky because it is opposite a low Sun."
In other news.... I can not begin to express how much I enjoy Gargoyles. Since becoming aware of your name, I have also seen your name attached to other series that I enjoy. Thank you for the entertainment and enjoyment you have brought to me. My long winded post to answer your question can not compare to how much I have appreciated your work. In short, thank you.
First off, thank you for the context. It is VERY helpful. And thank you for the kind words too.
And thank you for all the very interesting information....
But it does beg a question. You said a few of the names you listed would be different... but let's face it, except for Harvest & Hunter's, ALL the names were different. Some might come across as variants, but most don't.
So I'm still curious about the original names that were posted...
Hi Greg. Someone just wrote to you about the Hunter's Moon, telling you it was a full moon in October. That's half-true, depending on whether you follow the Native American system or the more general definition of the Hunter's Moon. The latter says that the Hunter's Moon is the full moon following the Harvest Moon, which itself is the closest full moon to the autumn equinox. This year, the harvest moon will be on Sep 10th, preceeding the equinox, and so the hunter's moon will be the following full moon, October 10th. The names derive from them being the brightest nights of the year, which allows a farmer to harvest crops late into the night, and one month later, to hunt through his recently razed fields for rabbits, birds, and other small animals.
Thanks for the info... Do the two systems ever coincide? Sometimes? Usually?
Salutations. I have a question concerning Robyn "Hunter" Canmore. Specifically, concerning her continued use of the Hunter persona and mask. The proposed Bad Guys show has long been my favorite of the six potential spin-offs, primarily because of my affinity for Dingo (I like to see redemption, I guess its just my religious upbringing). But when I read that Robyn would continue to use the identity and mask of the Hunter, I was initially nonplussed. The Hunter was born in a crucible of hate and anger. The red slash marks always seemed, to me, to be symbolic of the fact that the first Hunter refused to allow his wounds to heal. They may have physically healed, but once he put on the mask, they were suddenly red and (in his mind, at least) fresh. I didn't understand why Robyn, after she'd reformed and given up her family's misguided crusade, would nonetheless continue to wear the mask of the Hunter. But the more I thought about it, the more it made a certain amount of sense. Robyn is not the first Hunter, not by a long shot. Both of her brothers used the identity at one point in their lives, although they have both since abandoned it (though for vastly different reasons). Her Father was the Hunter. Numerous ancestors also wore the mask. By doing good while using the identity of the Hunter, she is, in some way, working to redeem not just herself, but her entire family line since Duncan. That was my interpretation, at least. Was I off the mark?
Not entirely, but you're also forgetting that this isn't all up to Robyn.
Redemption is a BIG theme of this spin-off. And deep down Robyn wants it for both herself, her siblings and her ancestors.
But in the short term -- she's being coerced by the Director. Coerced into participating in the squad. Coerced into maintaining the Hunter identity. How she ultimately comes to terms with all of this, I hope, would be one of the fascinating and complex elements of the series.
Will you let us know any of these days the reason why the Canmore clan hunted Demona after Canmore "killed" MacBeth and thus Demona.
Did you think of a reason after "City of Stone" and before "Hunter's Moon", or it is just a plothole that you cannot fill?
I don't want to sound arrogant but the whole 2 seasons of Gargoyles are perfectly detailed and nothing seems to be unexplained, except this... I just think that we should have learnt the reason why the Canmores reignited the vendetta in Hunter's Moon 3...
P.S.: I'm still hoping that you will answer to some of my 7 questions :P
Actually, there are a LOT of things still unexplained in the first two seasons, beyond this one point. I do know how the vendetta was reactivated, but I don't feel like revealing that story now.
When will you be revealing info about Fiona Canmore for those who could not go to The Gathering 2002?
I have no specific plans to reveal anything new about Fiona. On the one hand, I LIKE to give people extra incentive to attend the Gathering by saving some things for that annual event. (2005 is set for Las Vegas, in case you didn't know.)
On the other hand, I don't have a schedule for revealing anything about anyone. Often, it's just a whim thing.
Ok another question to add to my list.
It's known that John Canmore (hunter) has changed his indentity and later became John Castaway leader of The Quarrymen, but why would he have gone to all the trouble to change his eye color, his name, grow 10 years older, and change British (no longer being Scotish ), when the hunter thing was working much better than that metal hammer that goes ZAP!. Did the creators change him and give him a new group just for more stories ? and does His sister who is in jail know what he is up to ?
Thanks for taking the time to answer :)
Gargoyles Forever !
He didn't change his eye-color. He changed his appearance enough, being a wanted fugitive, to maintain his freedom. He changed his accent (as he had when he used the alias Jon Carter), to further his disguise.
He founded the Quarrymen, because he no longer had full access to the resources of the Hunters.
And his sister would likely find out soon what he was up to. His brother too.
I wasn't able to get to the Gathering this year so I have a lot of questions regarding the unmade Team Atlantis/Gargoyles crossover…
1) Can you give me a synopsise of the plot please? (Keep in mind that I've seen "Atlantis: The Lost Empire" and by the time you've read this I'll have probably have seen the direct to video sequel. So you don't have to waste time explaining who Milo is and stuff like that.)
2) You've said that Fiona is alive as of 12-31-95, so is she immortal or is she just really healthy? (It's possible, I know someone who's a hundred and six.)
3) Besides protecting the gargoyle race from a specific threat, what else can the praying gargoyle do?
4) In the gargoyle universe the majority of Atlanteans were human right?
5) If you had gotten to do more of Team Atlantis would we have seen gargoyles other than Demona or was this episode meant to exist in a vacume?
6) I don't suppose you'd consider posting the script up here? (not likely but a fella can try can't he?)
1. Nutshell version: Milo & Company are in Paris battling a sewer monster. Doc runs into an old flame, Fiona Canmore, who is hunting "a demon". That demon, of course, turns out to be Demona, theoretically the last of her kind. Demona uses a smitten Mole to find the Praying Gargoyle, and uses the statuette to artificially animate every stone gargoyle in Paris -- in order, basically, to murder the local humans. Team Atlantis defeats Demona's plot, but Doc prevents Fiona from killing Demona.
2. She's just really old.
3. It's uses are manifold, but are all geared toward protection of the Gargoyle species.
4. All Atlanteans are human, though once upon a time there may have been an Atlantean clan of Gargoyles.
5. Not in a vacuum, but I doubt the producer and executives in charge of Team Atlantis would have allowed me to do more than this one-shot deal.
6. No. Though I play the audio tape at EVERY GATHERING, so if you want to hear Marina Sirtis as Demona and Sheena Easton as the Hunter one more time, I suggest showing up in Montreal this August.
Top-o-the-milk-ta-ye-ma-lad. I've got some questions about the trio for you. The Canmore trio that is... :^B
1) I was wondering, since Jason's ID as a cop was phony, what about Jon's credentials as a news reporter?
b. Is Robyn Corry's Resume legit? I got the impression that she was much smarter and practical then her brothers, qualities that might come from a well-earned education at Sorbonne, and from real experience as a businesswoman.
2) Do ya think Robyn would take on a new last name as leader of the redemption squad?
b. Was Robyn Canmore's going to prison the end of Robyn Corry's carrier?
3) After taking on the role of John Castaway, did Jon have to discard his profession as a news reporter? The police probably realized that he had a double identity as Jon Carter since Maria Chavez figured that out in a scene that never aired. He also seemed to have done some slight plastic surgery to his face and that might be difficult to explain to his bosses at WVRN. It would probably be better for the Gargoyles that he doesn't have an influence in the media anymore, though I'm sure the Illuminati have other people in there.
4) Incidentally, besides serving as a subtle reference to the castle, what dose W.V.R.N. stand for?
5) What sort of relationship (if any) did Jon Carter have with Travis Marshal, and how do they feel about each other professionally?
6) Have those three had many other aliases in their lifetime?
b. If yes, did they have a variety of phony jobs, or did they tend to stick to the same thing.
c. Again, if yes, are any of these fake ID's still usable today
Thank ye kindly.
b. Largely phony.
2. No. But she also isn't quick to reveal her first OR last name to her teammates. They mostly know her as the Hunter.
b. You meant "career", right? If so, then, yeah. For now, anyway.
3. Yes, Castaway gave up being Carter. I don't think Jon got plastic surgery, just a haircut, a new wardrobe, a phony English accent and a mustache (oh, and an electrified hammer).
4. Doesn't stand for anything (except the in-joke). All television stations have four call letters assigned to them. East of the Mississippi, the call letters begin with a W. To the West, they begin with a K. Within those perameters, a station owner can choose it's own call letters (assuming no one else has already picked your choice).
The above is a HUGE hint as to who owns WVRN. Actually that last sentence is an even huger hint.
5. Not much of a relationship. Carter was clearly new to the station. Travis had been there for some time. They probably barely knew each other. Travis might have felt that Carter's reporting carried some sensationalism, but Carter could hardly be the only reporter in NY with that affliction. (And even the no-nonsense Travis is hardly immune.)
6. Uh... sure.
b. If something worked they might reuse.
For those of you who missed the controversy over the following set of questions... You're lucky.
These questions waited a long time in the queue, but were deleted...
What follows is a bit difficult to read, so here's a primer.
<Lynati lists topics -- or perhaps they are old questions -- inside these carrots.>
[She then quotes ASK GREG inside brackets.]
Then she asks new numbered and lettered questions inside parens, e.g. 1a).
MY NEW RESPONSES FOLLOW IN ALL-CAPS.
I'm in a Canmore mood this evening. Err, morning.
<Of Fiona's relationship to Robyn and her siblings, posted at two different times>
[Fiona is the twin sister of Jason, Robyn and Jon's grandfather. That is, she's their great aunt.]
DID YOU CUT AND PASTE THIS QUOTATION OR RETYPE IT YOURSELF? DID I REALLY MAKE THAT GLARING AN ERROR, SUBSTITUTING JASON FOR JACKSON.
[But I'm pretty sure that Jackson is Fiona's twin brother. That Jackson was the father of Aron who was the father of Charles
who was the father of Jason, Robyn & Jon. And I know Fiona's great-grandfather was Angus.]
This second list would make her their great-great-aunt. When you have a chance, will you look it up in your Canmore-bloodline list and clarify for us:
(1a)Is she Jackson's twin brother, or Aron's?
THE TWINS, JACKSON AND FIONA CANMORE WERE BORN IN 1888.
(1b)How many "great"'s properly belong in front of her name in relation to Robyn?
IN 1908, JACKSON'S SON ARON CANMORE WAS BORN. FIONA WAS HIS AUNT.
IN 1936, ARON'S SON CHARLES CANMORE WAS BORN. FIONA WAS HIS GREAT AUNT.
IN 1964, CHARLES' SON JASON CANMORE WAS BORN. FIONA WAS HIS GREAT-GREAT AUNT.
IN 1966, CHARLES' DAUGHTER ROBYN CANMORE WAS BORN. FIONA WAS HIS GREAT-GREAT AUNT.
IN 1972, CHARLES' SON JON CANMORE WAS BORN. FIONA WAS HIS GREAT-GREAT AUNT.
<At the time of 'Hunter's moon' were Jason, Jon and Robyn Canmore the only descendents of Canmore? Do they have any other family out there that they are unaware of?>
[There are probably a lot of Canmore descendants. They probably know some and don't know others, just like anyone. But they were the three who had carried on the tradition of the Hunter.]
(2a)Were Robyn and her siblings chosen to continue the Hunter tradition, or did they get a choice?
THEY WERE CHOSEN. AND THEY HAD A CHOICE IN THEORY, BUT GAUGE THAT RELATIVE TO WHAT YOU SAW IN "HUNTER'S MOON".
(2b)As they were trained by the "Canmore clan", does that mean that a large part of the family knows about "the Demon" and
the pledge to hunt her down, or is it kept a secret from anyone not pledged on the Hunter path?
IT DEPENDS ON HOW YOU DEFINE "CANMORE CLAN". IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT ANY AND ALL OF THE DESCENDANTS OF DUNCAN & CANMORE -- THAN NO, I DON'T THINK MOST STILL KNOW ABOUT DEMONA. BUT IF YOU'RE REFERRING TO THE BRANCH OF THE CLAN THAT RECREATED THE HUNTER TRADITION, THAN YES, MOST KNOW.
(2c)Were any of Robyn's cousins (and second cousins, etc.) offered the choice to become Hunters, and if not, did they receive similar training anyway?
I TEND TO THINK THAT THE MANTLE OF THE HUNTER FALLS ALONG A DIRECT LINE OF DESCENT AS OFTEN AS POSSIBLE.
(2d)Was Fiona Robyn, Jason, and Jon's primary teacher and trainer?
NO. BUT SHE PARTICIPATED.
[But I've charted so many Canmores that I get confused sometimes, and I don't have that chart with me. I can't remember for
sure. Ask me again later. ]
[She [Demona] was hunted (a) because she was the only one left (as far as they knew) and (b) because of a little mishap with
Canmore and one of his sons that I haven't told you about yet.]
(3a)Will you tell us about all of the Canmore's you have charted at 2002 (or whichever con is "next" by the time this post gets
through), including the above-mentioned "incident" that you have not previously told us about?
(3b)If not, will you tell us about most of them?
Hmm...maybe you should just sell copies of the Canmore family list at the Gathering.
IT'S A THOUGHT.
<So what happened in Paris, 1920 that was so significant to the Atlantis and Gargoyles universes? >
[Come to G2002 and find out.]
<origination of the word "Gargoyle".>
[The etimology of the word gargoyle goes back a long way. It evolved at least in part from an Atlantean word. That's all I want
to say at this time. But hold tight. More will be revealed at the Gathering 2002 in Virginia Beach.]
<Who created the Praying Gargoyle? >
[If you come to G2002, you'll find out.]
<How powerful is its magic?>
[Potentially, very powerful.]
(4a)So, was the Praying Gargoyle created on Atlantis?
IT WAS CREATED BY ATLANTEANS -- BUT I'M NOT SURE IF IT WAS LITERALLY CREATED IN ATLANTIS.
(4b)Did the first gargoyles develop on Atlantis?
NO. GARGOYLES PREDATE ATLANTIS. AS DO HUMANS.
(4c) What did you have for lunch today?
NOTHING. TOO BUSY ANSWERING QUESTIONS.
(4d)In 1920, were Fiona Canmore and Demona fighting over the possession of the Praying gargoyle?
NOT REALLY, THOUGH IT PLAYED A ROLE IN THEIR CONFLICT.
(4e)If yes, and the Praying Gargoyle was hidden this year, was there any particular reason that Demona had to wait 60
years to reclaim it, or did she just figure it was too good a hiding place to leave the statue in until she needed it?
THE PRAYING GARGOYLE WAS DESTROYED IN 1920. IT TOOK 60 YEARS TO REGENERATE.
And, while I'm here...
(5a)...Does Demona really "know every remaining gargoyle" as she claims in "the reckoning", or was this just another one of her "I am right about everything (and therefore there can be no more gargoyles than I know of)" delusions?
IT SEEMS CLEAR TO ME THAT SHE DOESN'T KNOW EVERY REMAINING GARGOYLE, AS SHE CLEARLY DOESN'T KNOW ABOUT AVALON.
(5b)Which clans is she actually aware of at the time she makes that proclamation?
I'M NOT GOING TO TIE MY HANDS BY LISTING THEM AT THIS TIME.
(5c)As Angela learned about Demona's immortality in "Sanctuary", why was she crying after Demona's "death" in the reckoning?
IT'S ONE THING TO KNOW SOMETHING INTELLECTUALLY, IT'S ANOTHER TO TRULY ABSORB IT. ALSO, AS I'VE STATED MANY, MANY TIMES BEFORE, THE MANHATTAN CLAN KNOWS THE BASIC RULES REGARDING DEMONA AND MACBETH, BUT THEY ARE NOT AS SURE AS I AM THAT DEMONA CAN NEVER BE KILLED EXCEPT UNDER CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES. THIS IS ALL NEW TO THEM.
(5d)Did Angela and Goliath honestly believe that Demona was permanently killed by the roller coster collapse/fire, even
knowing that Demona is only able to truly die at Macbeth's hands?
THEY JUST WEREN'T 100% SURE.
(5e) Was Angela not aware of that stipulation?
(5f)Since Goliath knew, did he deliberately keep the knowledge that Demona would survive from Angela?
(5g)Have I forgotten something that makes a flaw in my reasoning here?
ONLY THAT YOU ARE THINKING IN ABSOLUTES. MOST PEOPLE (AND GARGOYLES) GO THROUGH LIFE WITH SOME DOUBTS, INSECURITIES AND UNCERTAINTIES. EVEN IF THEY ARE TOLD SOMETHING, THERE'S ALWAYS ROOM TO QUESTION IT.
Yes, I plan to attend the Gathering in 2002.
The last question is, will you have read this post by then?
OBVIOUSLY, NOT. BUT AT LEAST I GOT TO IT BEFORE G2004.
Through which of Malcolm Canmore's children do the Canmore family of Hunters (Charles, Jon, Jason, Robyn, et al) descend from? Is it from one of the children from his first mariage to Ingibiorg Finnsdottir (King Duncan II, Malcolm or Donald), his second marriage to St. Margaret Atheling (King Edmund I, King Edgar, King Alexander I the Fierce, King David I the Saint, Edward, Ethelred, Matilda or Mary), or as yet another child?
I debated with myself as to whether or not I wanted to reveal this at this time, but what the heck...
The answer is Donald Canmore.
1a) Did Goliath know Jon Canmore and John Castaway were the same person? b) Did Elisa?
1a. Not at the time of "The Journey".
How come did the Canmores continue to hunt Demona if in "City of Stone" Canmore thought she was dead?
I could understand that if they (the other hunters) were Gillecomgain's descendents. But even then Canmore didn't have any big reasons to hate Demona, he just wanted to kill MacBeth.
Something happened between the end of City of Stone and the Renaissance to get the Canmore's on the hate trail again. I don't feel like going into too many details, but you can rest assured that as usual, Demona is her own worst enemy. (Which is not to say the Canmore's don't share the blame.)
This may be a little weird, but how do you spell the Hunter's real name (original hunter). Guilcomegaine? Gilcomgane?
Gillecomgain. Or at any rate, that's how we spelled it.
In Hunter's Moon I (or was it two?) Xanatos said: "It looks like this Mr. Carter could cause a bit of trouble for our old friend Goliath," referring to the reporter, Jon Canmore in disguise. But something dawned on me this morning, and I can't tell you how hard I laughed when I realized that this "Jon Carter" could actually be an inside joke of the episode Vendettas! When I realized that Xanatos' could've been referring to the bazooka causing Goliath trouble! So, was it an inside joke of the infamous Mr. Carter, Vinnie's banana cream pie bazooka? Because I very much doubt that it was a coincidence!
BTW, Vendettas is one of my favorite episodes! It's so funny!! And I love how everything falls into place as if it was written as a whole! Thanks again for such a wonderful show that still brings joy to my days. :)
It wasn't a coincidence. It was a throwaway.
Regarding John Castaway/Jon Canmore, how exacly did he make contact with the Illuminati?
I'm not revealing the specifics right now, though I will say that the Hunters and Illuminati have been aware of each other for quite some time.
Dear Mr. Weisman,
I have a questoin for you, and I am fully aware that you will probably exercise you're right to not answer it because it is a question that could possibly involve a lot of writting, that you haven't given any thought to, don't feel like answering, or just be stupid. So, I thank you so much for you're time :) and for such a kick'n show :) and for the super hot character of Puck :D so here's my question:
In "The City of Stone" flashback after Mac Beth successfully wins the battle against Duncan, he exilles Prince Canmore. What happens to him right after the guards take him away? Do they put him on a boat straight to England? Does he get an escort? Does he get to pack? Do they feed him? Does he try to escape again?
2. Is the Prince Canmore in "The City of Stone" full name Malcom Canmore III ?
I realize I am probably just being curious about silly stuff in a really awesome show, but I'm so curious about it I just have to ask! Plus, even if curiousity killed the cat, satisfaction brought her back! LOVE YA!
1. Well, I doubt he took a boat from Scotland to England. He was probably escorted there, with messengers sent ahead so that the English would expect his arrival. Did they feed him en route? Yes. Did he get to pack? I don't know. Probably not. Does he try to escape? No. I think at this point he goes to England and tries to win the English over to his side.
2. Canmore = Malcolm III = Malcolm Canmore = Maol Chalvim III = Ceann Mor = Big Head
You said in a chat in '97 that, "in my mind, he [Jon Canmore/Castaway] approached the Illuminati, who for their own reasons, funded the Quarrymen."
1a) How and for how long did he know that the Illuminati really existed? b) Do the other Canmores know about the Illuminati (before Robyn joins the Redemption Squad)?
2) How did he know where to find the Illuminati? I found your statement that *he* was the one to approach *them* rather interesting, as I would have assumed that it's usually the Illuminati who establish first contact with someone.
3) Does Castaway become a member of the Illuminati?
1a) I think the Canmore's have known for quite some time. The Hunters and the Illuminati may have been useful to each other from time to time.
b) I would think so. At least to some extent.
2. But this wasn't first contact. All he needs is a contact. The message would work its way up the pyramid, so to speak.
3. I don't know.
Im a big fan of the gargoyles and all and I was wondering if the gargoyles were still on the air would you bring back the Hunter? and few other questions.. how many Hunters were in the gargoyle history? I know they were 1 in the ancient times and 3 in the present and McBeth was kind of one... and the other question if you did brought back the Hunter what kind of look would he have? a High Tech-ish look more beyond what the 3 Hunters had?
I don't know exactly how many hunters there have been. We've shown a sampling, including Gillecomegain, Duncan, Canmore, the Renaissance Hunter, Charles Canmore, Jason Canmore, Robyn Canmore, Jon Canmore. And, as you said, briefly, Macbeth. Fiona Canmore would have appeared in Team Atlantis, had that show gone forward, and Robyn would have continued as the Hunter in Bad Guys (though she'd largely be hunting other bad guys, not gargs) had that show gone forward.
There are more Hunters in the past, including some specific ones that I have in mind. But I won't pretend I've run the entire Canmore line from Canmore to Jon out in my head and listed every single one.
As for moving forward, I see the Hunters waning in favor of the waxing Quarrymen. But I'm not talking in absolutes.
I was sitting down watching Hercules-The ani.series. It ended and I started watching the credits(a habit I've formed since working at a movie theater). When what to my wandering eye should appear but Jon Weismen. Any relation?
YEP. My kid brother. His name and my sisters', though not their personalities, were used for the two younger Hunter siblings, Robyn & Jon Canmore.
As of 1996 are there any hunters besides Jason, Robyn, Jon and Fiona?
Not officially. But there may be other Canmores. And Fiona was retired by that time. Largely.
Since Jon and Robyn were named after your siblings why didn't you name Jason after yourself?
Too arrogant even for me.
You said Fiona was a hunter, was her twin-brother?
1) Did the "Renaissance Hunter" (the one from 1495) have a name?
2) If yes, what was it?
2. Blank Canmore.
If given the chance would Robyn Canmore continue to hunt Demona
I tend to think not, but some things are situational.
What is Fiona Canmores' twin brother/Charles Canmores father/Jason, Robyn, Jon's grandfather's name?
Ugh. I'm fairly certain that Fiona's twin brother is named Jackson. But I've charted so many Canmores that I get confused sometimes, and I don't have that chart with me. I can't remember for sure. Ask me again later.
(But I'm pretty sure that Jackson is Fiona's twin brother. That Jackson was the father of Aron who was the father of Charles who was the father of Jason, Robyn & Jon. And I know Fiona's great-grandfather was Angus.)
What do the Monmouths think of gargoyles in 2198? Are they pro-gargoyle?
How did Gillecomgain become such a good assassin? He was a peasant by birth. What ever happened to his father?
1. Practice, practice, practice.
2. Hee, hee, hee.
1.Did Jason, Jon and Robyn receive any training at hunting gargs? Who did they receive it from?
2.Do the Canmore siblings know of Fiona? What do they think of her?
3.Were the similarities between the Canmore siblings and the Phantom (kit walker) intentional? I mean both are from families who are obsessively hunting the Demon/fighting crime for hundreds of years and both have their parents killed when they were young?
4.Who was the Canmore siblings' mother? What happened to her? Is she still alive?
1a. The Canmore Clan.
3. Not particularly.
3a. My familiarity with the Phantom is limited at best, I'm afraid.
4. Not saying at this time.
How did Fiona stay alive for so long?
Does she still hunt gargs in 1996?
I just noticed that Charles Canmore's Hunter costume was most similar to Jon Canmore's Hunter costume was this symbolic of both men unable to give up the tradition of the hunt while Robyn and Jason it seems were able to give up the hunt? If not why did the two costumes of Charles and Jon resemble each other?
Each and every Hunter costume is a variation on the original's basic theme.
Some of what you've noticed may be due more to coincidence rather then intent. Otherwise you'd have to ask the costume's designers.
1) Do the Canmore siblings (The Hunters) know about Macbeth (What, with his still being alive and all)?
2) Have they ever tried to hunt him?
3) Does Macbeth have any descendants living by 1996?
4) Do the Canmores (at least the ones descended from Jon) still hunt Demona in 2198?
1. Not saying.
2. Not saying.
3. Not saying.
4. There are no more Canmores, at least not of that line. But the Castaways still hunt her. Her and all gargoyles through the Quarrymen.
*Greatly* enjoyed the radio play. Thank you so much!
Did the cut scene of Hunter's Moon III between Elisa and Jason in the decimated clock tower actually happen in the gargoyles universe, just off camera?
Uh... I'd like to think so, yes.
Since Aaron mentioned it in his Gathering Diary, I figured now would be the time to ask.
I bought a copy of "The Hunter's Moon" Part 3 Radio Play script at the auction. I don't want to post it on the internet without your permission, so may I put it up?
I'll understand perfectly if you'd rather I didn't. I'll abide by your decision.
Up to you. But thanks for asking.
Hunter's moon part 1 questions:
1) When Jason said he had heard of alligators in the sewers, and Elisa said she could tell him stories, was she talking totaly about gargoyles, or has she ever had an experience with an alligator in a sewer? What would she have told him if the thiefs hadn't interupted?
2)Why do Demona's thugs need to steal DI7 disenfectant if it was a comonly used cleaner? Why not just buy it?
3a) Where do the hunter trio get the money for all their technoligy? I'm guessing stealing, but I dunno. b) did they get their airship from cyberbiotics? How? c) Have they ever hunted and or killed a gargoyle(s) before?
4) Did older hunters use real raven's or halks (or whatever that mech bird was) when hunting Gargs?
5) why didn't Gilcomgain's <sp?> scratches bleed a bit more when he was talking to his daddy?
1. Nothing. Been a while since I saw this, but I believe that she was talking about gargoyles. And she wouldn't have told him anything.
[I should note that I am currently on vacation at my in-laws using their web-tv. The keyboard is stiff and various keys, the r in particular, stick. I don't think I have the patience to put up with this for long.]
2. It wasn't commonly used. It was in work to be commonly used.
3. They have a substantial Canmore Trust. The ship's designers have not been revealed. They have been hunting Demona since they were kids. Whether or not they had also hunted and/or killed other gargs has yet to be revealed.
5. As opposed to when?
Did you develop the character of Fiona Canmore before Team Atlantis? If so what were your original plans for her?
No. I developed her brother before Team Atlantis. When that opportunity arose, I just gave the brother a twin sister.
FYI, if you're interested in learning more about Fiona...
Come to G2002.
(Waves to Siryn.)
Hi! It was great seeing you again at this year's Gathering. (Insert tons of compliments, comments and the like, regarding that event).
Anyway, you wrote:
I don't have any more plans for the pie gun.
But I have very specific plans for the guy the pie gun was named after.
And I just, belatedly, realize that Carter is the alias that Jon Canmore uses in Hunter's Moon. If I remember correctly, that in your plans, Castaway was NOT Jon Canmore... is he (Canmore) the one you are referring to?
It always seemed to me that Jon having access to TV, via being a newscaster, had more influence to the public at large than being the head of an obvious Klan rip-off.
So, be oblique and witty about this?
No, in my development Canmore was definitely Castaway.
It's the people who took over from me who didn't seem to want to acknowledge that.
... as for the original to Mr. Carter.... I'm not in the mood to reveal that right now...
But, hey, Mara, where's your Gathering diary, huh?
Is Fiona named after a relative of yours?
1) Do the Canmore siblings (The Hunters) know about Macbeth (What, with his still being alive and all)?
2) Have they, or any other Canmores, ever tried to hunt him?
3) Does Macbeth have any descendants living by 1996?
4) Do the Canmores (at least the ones descended from Jon) still hunt Demona in 2198?
1. Not saying.
2. Not saying.
How does Jon Castaway (Canmore) die?
1. In "Journey" you introduced John Castaway. Would he be involved in any way, in any of your spinoffs? The reason I ask is, I know he won't be alive in 2198. (Maybe his great grandson or some relative) But other than 2198 are you planning anything more with him?
2. Since I know you only worked on one episode of TGC, would you personally (should your spinoffs come back to TV) ignore what has taken place in the remaining episodes of the TGC seeing how you were not involved in their creation? Or were some of the TGC episodes ideas yours which you were planning before your contract ran out? I don't think some episodes can be completely ignored. However I hated that in TGC, they killed off the clones. What is your take on this?
3. By the way, since the Gathering 2001 is over, may I ask if there was any petitioning done to jumpstart Gargoyles and make it TV-borne again? If so, how'd it go?
2. I've answered this before too. My current thinking, which is not etched in stone, is to ignore what I don't consider canon. Enough time has passed and any new episodes would need to stand on their own two feet anyway. If anyone's confused about contradictions between TGC and the new stuff, they can check out the internet site that we will have to clarify all this stuff.
3. I didn't see any petitions. Feel like starting one? I'd focus on DVD's for now.
Incidentally, your post here should theoretically have been broken up into three posts, since your questions were on three separate topics. I haven't reminded people of that in a while. I ignored the rule breaking this time, but don't make a habit of it.
Hi Greg. CrzyDemona revealed what she'd discovered when you invited her to the recording of one of the "Team Atlantis" episodes. So Fiona is a Canmore, and she'll have some kind of encounter/involvement with Demona in Paris? I'm wondering....
1a) Since Jon, Jason and Robyn's father died hunting Demona at Notre Dame, and Fiona was born in 1888, is Fiona a part of their branch of the Canmore family? b) What is her relation to the Canmore trio we know (I'm assuming the obvious, but I'd like confirmation).
2) Does this mean that the "Gargoyles" and "Atlantis" universes are one and the same?
Let's start with the fact that Crzy got in a bit of trouble for revealing what she did. She's lucky I love her so dearly.
The reason she got in a bit of trouble, is because I GOT IN A BIT OF TROUBLE. Team Atlantis is coming out in the fall of 2002. We are way jumping the gun by talking about it now.
Having said that, both Tad Stones (the Executive Producer of Team Atlantis) and Greg Guler (the character designer of Team Atlantis) kind of went on about the show at the Gathering. So now I'm in less trouble. But I'm reluctant to reveal very much more before G2002, when Tad has agreed to throw all of us a rather large bone.
But for now, I'm not going to reveal anything else that's in the episode.
Fortunately for you Vash, you've asked questions that aren't answered in the episode.
1. Fiona is the twin sister of Jason, Robyn and Jon's grandfather. That is, she's their great aunt. Is that the obvious answer you were assuming?
2. No. But they overlap in Paris in 1920.
By the way, Vash, it was fun seeing you at the Gathering. :)
How would Macbeth react to the Canmore siblings? They are, after all, descendants of his arch-nemeses, and overall the family hasn't proven to be very honorable.
He'd not be fond of them.
Just in case you haven't revealed who she is yet:
1) Is Fiona a blood relative to one or more "known" characters in the Gargoyles universe? ["known" being defined as a character(s) who was/were either shown in the show or who you have previously identified and discussed having plans for]
2) In which spinoffs do you have plans for her to appear in?
3) To which of the three surviving Earth races does she belong?
2. Gargoyles. Bad Guys. Maybe TimeDancer. Maybe Pendragon. Maybe New Olympians. Maybe Gargoyles 2198 in a flashback. Not Dark Ages.
Who exactly is Fiona?
(And I'm only revealing this because someone ALREADY let the cat out of the bag. Naughty, naughty and you know who you are.)
You've mentioned before that most humans in the Gargoyles Universe don't realize that the gargoyles are sentient beings, but see them merely as animals. Was the term "Hunter" for the various individuals from Gillecomgain down to the Canmores who were deliberately seeking out and destroying the gargoyles a reflection of this? As in, the gargoyles being perceived of as merely wild animals, like the everyday targets of hunters?
Yes. Very much so. (But admit it, you knew that.)
I was wondering what the translation of Gillecomgain's name would be.. Do you know?
No. Is there a translation?
Why did the Malcom Canmore's descendents start hunting Demona? I mean Demona didn't do anything to them?
How do you know?
You said that in the future the Castaways and Monmouths would be in conflict with each other so who does Jon marry somebody to have kids or does he adopt kids to continue his line? If he marries who does he marry?
Not answering that now.
what did Titania whisper to Fox in "The Gathering"?
where will Arthur and Griff find Merlin?
who is Lexington's mate?
how will Goliath and Elisa have a child?
did Iago have a mate? does he have a kid on Avalon?
what are the answers to 74 and 517 in the G2198 contest?
where do Jade and Turquesa go when they leave Avalon?
will Puck's prophecy from "Future Tense" come true?
how will Macbeth and Demona die?
will Jason Canmore ever be healed from his injuries?
will Xanatos and Fox have anymore children?
who will Delilah end up with?
and please fell free to describe the origens, workings and all available information concerning the Illuminati, the Korean Clan, the Space Spawn, locations and dates of Brooklyn's Timedancing, the story behind Hudson's death, the Redemption Squads adventures, Una's childhood, how the Banche regains her voice, Demona/Angela relationship, the economy of Ishimura, and what your favirote color is...
just kidding! April Fools!!!
I will answer one of those questions.
Have fun guessing which one.
Thanks for warning me that it's April 1st, by the way.
As it's June when I am, I could have easily gotten fooled by the posts that follow, I imagine.
I just watched "The Journey" for the first time--amazing, huh.
Some questions about the Stonecutters.
1) Since the show was in a completely different time slot, was John Canmore and the Pie Guy supposed to be inside jokes?
2) Why were the Hunter slashed reduced to being part of the larger symbol instead of beingm like the old 3-slice masks. (As I write this, I think its ABC's fault)?
I assume you mean the Quarrymen.
1. Inside jokes? Well, I wanted people to enjoy the episode even if they hadn't seen those characters before, but no, not inside jokes.
2. No, it wasn't ABC's fault. I don't think there's a fault at all. It wasn't supposed to be DEAD obvious that Jon Canmore and John Castaway were the same person. That is, I wanted to play fair with old fans, but I wanted a mystery for new ones.
Who is Fiona?
In the list of characters' ages that you printed just now to Mel Celestial (from King Arthur all the way down to Thailog), you included a certain "Fiona". Who is she? I don't recall anyone by that name in the series.
Must be a reason for that, don't you think?
One amusing little historical note about Canmore, which I must confess spooks me a little. In actual history, two of his sons, both of whom became Kings of Scotland after him, were named Alexander and David. In the context of "Gargoyles", I must confess that I find that a bit on the creepy side.
You and me both, buster.
One of the many freaky little things leaking into our reality from the Gargoyles Universe.
Is Jason Canmore your Mary Sue character?
I'll say it again. Huh?
What is Canmore's mother, Duncan's wife's, name?
I can't remember. Can't even remember if I ever knew. Todd?
City of Stone...what a great miniseries! Not one of my specific favorite sets of episodes, but I love how everything storywise came together ('what a tangled web we weave'!) I ADORE continuing story lines, which is why I never got into many 'sitcom' cartoons. (I DO admit having a weakness for "Freakazoid", though...)
And thanks for explaining that whole screw up with Demona looking too old in that 'new' scene with the Captain of the Guard. That has always annoyed the heck outta me, but I wasn't thinking along the lines of the poor animators trying to keep things straight. Considering I want to go into some type of animation, I feel guilty for not being more thoughtful! ^_^
Now, on to some questions/musings/etc...
"If it turns out short, we can add the bit about 'Birnam Wood coming to Dunsinane', which I've left out for now."
1>You planned to use this witches' prophecy from the play in the show? How were you going to fit it in exactly?
This was one of my favorite ironies in the play (now that I've read it!), right next to the prophecy about Mac not being killed 'by a man of woman-born'. And if you think about it, that irony _was_ portrayed in the series. Demona isn't woman-born, and she certainly ain't a man! ^_~
"He gets in his helicopter heading for Studio, with Derek at pilot."
2> You mean you didn't have "Metamorphosis" planned out at this point in time? Or were you just confused? Or am I just confused...?
"Duncan goes to destroy them starting with Demona."
3> Whoa, hold on! I just thought of something...how'd Duncan know about Gil's feud with Demona specifically? Did Gil tell him? And did he pass on the legend of "The Demon" down to Canmore? How did the Eternal Hunt for the Demon get passed down (I mean, how did future Canmores specifcally know to hunt HER?)
"Duncan is killed in some way. (Preferably the same way Find & Gil bought it.)"
4> Well, we know he DIDN'T die this way. How did that whole magical orb thing come into the picture? Who's idea was it? (Yours? Mr. Reaves?)
"...To Demona, who is having a grand old time with the 'stoners'..."
"...She's practically giddy, talking to herself and the 'stoners'..."
"...In the skies above Manhattan, Xanatos & Goliath fly abreast for a moment as they 'pass gas'..."
>No questions here, I just thought that was funny. ^_~
>Hmm...I just ran this by spell check, and it suggested "manatees" for "Xanatos". How the heck do you get _manatees_ outta that?! There's no "X" in manatees! Sheesh!
Ciao, thanks again!
1. Honestly, I no longer remember exactly. But it would have been part of Canmore's attack on Castle Moray. The one where Demona switched sides.
1a. I liked that irony too.
2. We didn't have the order of things planned out at that time. We knew Metamorphosis was coming. Didn't yet know where it would fall.
3. He didn't. (Now I think one of us IS confused.) She was hunted (a) because she was the only one left (as far as they knew) and (b) because of a little mishap with Canmore and one of his sons that I haven't told you about yet.
4. I don't remember. I'm guessing Michael (or Lydia or Brynne). Maybe they remember. Come to the Gathering this June in L.A. and ask them. All three will be there. (End of plug #562 in a series.)
5. Gotta keep myself amused, you know.
Time to Ramble on "City of Stone, Part One", which I watched the other night with my family....
Story Editor: Michael Reaves
Story: Michael Reaves
Teleplay: Brynne Chandler Reaves & Lydia Marano
Well, over a year had passed since we had revealed in "Enter Macbeth" that Macbeth had named Demona. Now we were gearing up to explain that little tidbit of info. I'm curious to know how many people were still focused on that before the "PREVIOUSLY ON GARGOYLES..." reprised it.
City of Stone was a story I had conceived originally (but briefly) as a Direct to Video movie. My boss Gary Krisel rejected it. He felt that a movie featuring the Gargoyles needed to feature our heroes a LOT MORE than this story did. Nevertheless, he liked the concept of the HUNTER a lot. So I got him to agree to let us do City of Stone as a multi-parter for the series. And I promised that Michael and I would come up with a new Hunter story that focused more on our heroes. Thus Hunter's Moon was born -- as a Home Video, originally, and we had an ending to shoot at for the entire second season.
Meanwhile, I couldn't actually disagree with Gary too much. This was Demona and Macbeth's story. The origin of two of our major villains. We had some great animation on this from Koko in Korea. Not as strong as our WDTVJapan stuff, but still very good.
What was the terrorists' cause, you might ask? I'm not telling. At the time, I had no answer. We were vague on purpose. Since then, I've come up with an answer. Now I'm being evasive on purpose.
I love Matt as a hostage negotiator.
But not as much as I love Brendan & Margot as hostages. They're a hoot.
How fast was everyone on the uptake with the Weird Sisters? Those three little girls. Even before the gargs showed, one was saying something like: "Don't worry, it'll be over soon." Did you think they were odd then? Did you notice them?
I like Brooklyn's "Don't gush" line.
When the Weird Sisters tell Goliath they weren't talking about THAT terrorist, my six year old daughter Erin said: "I think they were talking about Demona." For Chanukah, I gave Erin a Kenner Brooklyn, Broadway and Hard-Wire Goliath (which I told her was a Goliath robot). My three year old son Benny got Goliath, Lex and Xanatos. So for the first time, while they watched they could play with the toys.
It's interesting to watch the first flashback SET. All sorts of old footage from Awakening Part One, mixed with new footage. It's all very seemless thanks to great editing by Bob Birchard. And it wasn't easy. Because there was considerable confusion overseas throughout City of Stone, in terms of which model of Demona to animate. We had her standard model. Plus one that was slightly older, for the second set of flashbacks in this episode. They were constantly mixing the models up. We'd call retakes whenever we could, but sometimes we decided just to make due. So you have the flashback from Awakenings, where Goliath tells Demona to stay behind. That's followed by us finally seeing what Demona and the Captain said to each other after Goliath left. No great revelation in that scene, but we figured it would be nice to finally reveal it. Plus we wanted to clarify things from Demona's point of view. But in some of those shots, Demona appears to have aged a bit.
We see Othello & Desdemona. We are allowed to do something in this episode that we couldn't really do for S&P reasons in Awakening. To personalize the victims of the massacre a bit. In Awakening, we only got to meet the survivors. Finally we meet the victims. Of course, we're still cheating a bit, since my excuse to S&P was that our audience already knew (1) that these two died and that (2) they survived in a sense in Coldstone. But it did, independent of previous episodes, allow the startling moment when Demona picks up a fragment of Othello's face. Of course, I tried to get tha fragment -- and all those fragments in the immediate vicinity -- to be the pieces that survived into Coldstone. I think that was semi-successful.
Demona's cowardice overwhelms the courage of her strongly held convictions. She flees. Benny: "The sun's gonna come up." Yep. She turns to stone, shedding a tear. That "TEARS OF STONE" image was so effective that I allowed it to repeat in the episode. Later, her tear drops onto the stone Goliath and seems to be coming from his eye. A nice visual variation on a theme.
Demona: "It worked! At last my clan is free of human rule!"
Erin: "No. It didn't work."
Later Erin sees Demona watching Goliath holding some smashed gargoyles' remains and crying "my angel of the night". Erin says: "He thinks that was her [Demona]." Now you may be wondering why I'm reprinting such obvious responses here. But they interest me. It really struck me this viewing that in this episode, despite the "Previously" segment and all the flashbacks, that you really would be lost if you were a new viewer. Is there anyone out there for whom City of Stone was your first Gargoyle experience? If so, I'd love to hear from you. Did you have a clue as to what was going on?
Demona's classic neurotic short-circuit: "What have I -- What have THEY done to you?" The motivation that writer's live for.
And a little hint of Avalon things to come, as we see Tom, Princess K and Magus depart with the eggs. How many people had given the eggs any thought since Xanatos told the gargs back in Awakening Two that they were the last of their kind? And did this little tidbit whet the appetite, or did you forget about it immediately? I was already planning the Avalon/Archmage/World Tour/Angela stuff.
Benny (out of nowhere) asks: "What happens if someone is frozen in the sky?" We discussed various possibilities. But we're still weeks away from getting around to seeing "The Price". So I didn't want to spoil that one for him.
The intro of Gillecomgain. Erin (who has seen these before once, long ago) suddenly remembers: "His face is gonna get scratched."
Now, back in the 20th century, Owen points out that Xanatos' tv override works for "Cable, as well." I always liked that.
I also like Demona's VERY convincing lie. At this point, we don't know how she's survived through the centuries. Maybe she did do it by stealing minutes of life from thousands of people. And maybe now, she and Xanatos will do the same on a citywide scale. I always thought it was a very elegant lie. What did you guys think? Did you buy it?
The "Watch or Listen but not both" stuff regarding the magic, wasn't just a convenient excuse to give us a Robbins expository scene later. I always felt that the magic our various sorcerors did couldn't be as simple as it seemed. Anyone who reads the spell out loud can do it? No. There are complex inflections, movements, etc. involved. Study and willpower, etc. This was an attempt on my part to demonstrate that it was about more than just being in range with someone who has a copy of a Grimorum page.
On the other hand, I do think we cheated a bit to trap Owen. That spell she reads is the City of Stone spell. Yet it seems to put Owen, of all people, into a trance. We talked about her nailing him some other way first. But it was too clumsy and time consuming, so we just cheated.
Gathering Clue: Demona to Owen: "You are the tricky one." And she wraps him up in iron cable.
Elisa's watching Casablanca. Great movie.
Phoebe is looking at Seline when she speaks to Luna. Like Demona aging, we had a hell of a time getting the overseas studio to keep the three sisters straight. I began to insist that each of their appearances on the storyboard was accompanied by a hair color chart. And once more, it's black for Seline, blonde for Phoebe and silver for Luna.
We also made a real effort to put subtle character distinctions between the three sisters. Seline is the hard case. Phoebe is the gentle one. Luna is the mystic. It was part of hinting that the Sisters would serve multiple purposes in the series. Some of which I still have not revealed.
Back to the past. The guard says "Maybe they won't come." Erin asks: "Maybe who won't come?" And then the gargoyles come. The guards are taken down, and Demona raises her mace into the air. Erin asks: "Are they dead?" And dad... equivocates.
I like that gargoyle (Demona's second) with the breast plate. John Rhys-Davies did his voice.
At this stage, Demona believes that these scattered gargoyles are all that are left in the world. A second later, three gargoyles she's never met show up. (Now, true, they're the Sisters. But I was trying to make a general point, hinting that sometimes characters make absolute statements when they flat out don't know what they're talking about. Audience members beware.)
Benny immediately figured out that the three old gargoyle females were the weird sisters, or as he put it: "They're the humans. The one's that disappeared." I.e. the kids that disappeared in the first sequence of the episode. That made me feel a little better. People are always telling me that I write stuff that is too adult for kids to get. I tell them that I try to write on multiple levels. So that the kids get what they need to get and that adults, etc. get more. But it's nice to get confirmation that the kids do get it on occasion. Particularly in an ep as complicated as this one.
Intro Findlaech, Gruoch, Bodhe and young Macbeth. I like how quickly they are all characterized in that scene. F is loyal. B is equivocal at best. Bodhe is already thinking about how to marry G off to advantage. "What about Macbeth? Is he a match for the lass?" Yeah, sure he's talking about chess. I came to have a great deal of contempt for the character of Bodhe. (Too be fair, I have no idea what the historical Bodhe's character was like.) And yet, almost simultaneously, I became fond of him too. He was SO human. SO flawed. SO afraid of the world. And yet SO desperate to tread water in it.
We also establish the "SIGIL OF MORAY" which will become an important prop throughout.
I like that little blushing moment of G & Mac's. But mostly, I like it because of B & F's reactions. Bodhe is suddenly nervous that Gruoch might, shall we say, lose something with Macbeth prematurely. Though he pushed them together, he now rushes to separate them. But it's too late. The connection has already been made. F just laughs.
Now... Enter the HUNTER. The Hunter got a sort of Steve Canyon intro. That is, he's been talked about by various people for the last few minutes, though we haven't gotten a look at him. (This was the technique used when Steve Canyon was first introduced in the comic strips.) Now he shows up, and I trust he isn't disappointing. Benny immediately says: "THat's the one that got scratched." Sharp boy. (Keep in mind, that we haven't yet seen the adult Gille, so we haven't seen his scarred face yet.)
I love this sequence. It's a great fight, full of great little touches, flourishes, etc. Great storyboarding work here.
Again, characters are revealed in a nutshell. Gruoch's already loyal. Bodhe's revealed to be a coward. Even when his daughter rushes downstairs, he stays above.
Findlaech dies. It's a classic Disney fall-to-one's-death death. But there is a difference. F is the good guy. Usually, that's done with the villain. Was anyone shocked?
I love how at this point, Macbeth is nothing but an annoyance to both Demona and the Hunter. I also love how complex Demona is. Under it all, she's really something of a romantic. She rescues the young lovers. Then can't believe she did it. She's trying to will herself to be cold. So that she won't feel anything. But it isn't natural. She's not a cold woman, though her plans often are. It's that divide that's generally gonna screw her up everytime.
When the Hunter first enters on Prince Duncan, we were supposed to (BRIEFLY) think he was there to attack the Prince as well. But I don't think that comes off even slightly.
And o.k., yes, Gillecomgain has a face to match the Hunter's mask. It's worse than Clark Kent and those glasses. Does Scotland really not know it's him? Believe it or not, that never even occured to me initially. (Yes, I'm a dope.) Now, I'll chalk it up to the notion that everyone figures he's TOO obvious a suspect. You can almost here the water cooler talk:
MacMorris: "Hey, MacTavish, have you ever noticed that that Gillecomgain guy has scars across his face just like the red marks on the Hunter's mask?"
MacTavish: "What are you saying, MacMorris? That Gillecomgain is so stupid, he'd wear a mask and then put his scars ON the mask? Not much of a disguise. Know what I think. I think the Hunter is trying to throw suspicion onto old Gilley."
MacMorris: "Oh, give me a break."
MacTavish: "Hey, pal, it worked with you."
I made a real effort to just have the Weird Sisters EVERYWHERE.
Back to the present. Someone dons a Hunter's Mask. How many knew it was Macbeth right away? I figured at the time that regular viewers would figure that out pretty darn quick. That didn't bother me. For them, I figured the mystery would be "WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD MACBETH DON A HUNTER'S MASK, WHEN THE HUNTER KILLED HIS FATHER?" I thought that mystery was at least as intriguing. Do you guys agree or disagree?
I also liked the variation on the mask. No eyes. Nothing. Modern technology.
Fox. Fox presented an interesting dilemma. What was Xanatos' attitude toward her in this? We already know he loves her. But he doesn't include her in the immortality thing with Demona. Why? Demona won't allow it? Or he thinks Demona won't? Or he doesn't fully trust D and won't risk Fox until he knows the set-up works?
And then he finds out that she did watch the broadcast. He had told her not to, but she did. He doesn't fill her in. (Not that there's much time.) Is he prepared to let her lose a minute from her life (as he believes has happened)? How would he have felt if Demona wasn't lying about that? At the end of her life, would an immortal Xanatos be desperate to give her that one minute back? Of course, given Fox's heritage, which I didn't know yet, it's possible, she'll outlive him by quite a bit. Course, anything's possible.
How's the cliff-hanger? We haven't seen the city yet, but we do get to see Owen, Fox and Elisa all turned to stone. We're so used to the Gargoyles in stone, but not humans. I thought it was sort of chilling. The more chilling, because we know from earlier in this very episode, what can happen when living beings are turned to stone. (The Wyvern Massacre.) Now we've seen this four-parter a bunch of times and we're used to it. But I'm curious as to how you all felt the first time you saw Part One.
Another interesting aspect, is that 3/4 of the threat is to characters that we consider to be villains. Or more than 3/4. In the past, young Macbeth has lost his father and is clearly at risk. And Demona is being hunted. In the present, Fox and Owen are stone. And Xanatos and Fox appear to be falling to their deaths. Sure, the clincher is Elisa. But I think it's a tribute to how well-rounded are villains are that we care what's going to happen to them. Can you imagine most cartoons making the death of the villains a cliff-hanger? People would simply cheer.
One little flaw: Elisa's facing the wrong way. It was easier to board that way, I'm sure. But I can't figure out why she would have been standing and facing that direction at sundown.
Comments welcome, as usual...
The Hunters had a mechanical bird with them when they attacked Goliath, Angela and Hudson.
1a) How did they acquire the bird? b) Which Hunter did it belong to?
2a) Were they the first Hunters to use a bird of any kind in their hunt for Demona? b) If not, how common was it, and what kinds of birds were used?
3a) Will Castaway use such a bird again? b) Will Robyn?
4) Did they really consider the bird to be all that useful? It was destroyed rather easily. Why didn't they use such a bird again?
1a. Like most of their weaponry, they purchased basic tech and adapted it to their own use.
2b. Probably falcons.
4. They didn't have a surplus.
At the time of 'Hunter's moon' were Jason, Jon and Robyn Canmore the only descendents of Canmore? Do they have any other family out there that they are unaware of?
There are probably a lot of Canmore descendants. They probably know some and don't know others, just like anyone. But they were the three who had carried on the tradition of the Hunter.
"There will always be a Hunter...." If I ask you who the next one would be after Robyn, I'm sure to get a "not telling" reply. So for a bit less-revealing an answer, will the next hunter also be descended from Canmore?
With a set up like that, how can I NOT answer with: "I'm not telling."
Speaking of the Canmores and Macbeth, by the "present-day" portion of "Hunter's Moon", were the Canmores still aware of their ancestors' old feud with Macbeth, or had they forgotten this by now, to focus purely on Demona and her race? (I rather suspect the latter, in view of Jason Canmore's confession in the Lost Scene of "Hunter's Moon" that the family had forgotten what started the feud with the gargoyles to begin with).
Yeah, the latter. They didn't even know that the original Hunter wasn't even a Canmore. They certainly didn't know about Gillecomgain being scarred by Demona as a boy. And that all this had largely been a result of that little incident. An incident which Demona had forgotten by the end of the tenth century.
In "The Journey", Banquo and Fleance are portrayed as working for Castaway, who is really Jon Canmore in disguise. Was this intended as a bit of irony, in light of the fact that they'd earlier worked for Macbeth, who was an enemy of the Canmores' ancestors Duncan and Canmore?
Can Gillecomgain smell? In City of Stone part 2 he tries to smell a rose but then he looks sad and steps on it. Did Demona damage his nose?
No. He's just a lousy human being.
In City of Stone 2, when Demona rip off the Hunter's mask, Gillecomegain shot something like: "Do you remember me? The boy you disfigured?" Demona said no. Did she lie or she didn't remember the boy?
I don't think she knew who the hell he was.
What was Duncan's motivation to become the hunter? Was it just because Demona helped out McBeth a couple times?
He saw the Hunter's Mask as a useful and necessary tool.
Thanks for posting the lost "Matt and Chavez" scene from "The Journey".
One bit of interest was Matt's mention of frightened New Yorkers smashing architectural gargoyles. This was because there was a scene involving that in one of the Goliath Chronicles episodes (the "Alex-gets-kidnapped" one, I recall), that we occasionally misremembered as a scene in "The Journey"; now it turns out that you had actually planned such vandalism taking place offstage in that episode all along. At any rate, thanks for that scene.
(The one problem that I admit I have with looking over "The Journey", of course, is that it really makes me regret the way that the rest of the season went after that - I still wish that you'd gotten to do the other twelve episodes as well, but I suppose that there's no use sighing over that).
I'm still sighing over that. The one real career regret I have is not doing those last twelve.
Also, I was intentionally leaving it vague as to whether or not the vandalism was the result of "ordinary citizens" or the Quarrymen. The Q-Men hadn't quite made a splash yet. So Matt might not be aware of them yet. And of course, Castaway was recruiting frightened New Yorkers. So, as usual, it's possible that "all things are true."
A little comment-ramble-reply to your latest ramble (on whether your ideas for the Master Plan count as fanfic or not).
I certainly agree with you that it isn't really official or canon until it reaches the television screen (or whatever Disney's official medium for "Gargoyles" becomes next, when and if it returns). In fact, we've seen evidence enough already that things may get changed in the process of actually creating the stories (witness the exec who suggested that Goliath ask the Magus to place the "sleep until the castle rises above the clouds" spell upon him, rather than having the Magus make the offer first). But all the same, I do find myself leaning more towards your version of things - not just because you said them, but often because they simply make the most amount of sense to me.
One example that I will give here is the "Jon Canmore = Castaway" idea, which you had in mind in writing "The Journey", but which "The Goliath Chronicles" didn't pick up on, making Castaway just some villainous businessman after the gargoyles for no apparent reason other than "motiveless malignity". I believe in Castaway and Jon Canmore being the same, not just because you said so, but because it makes more sense to me that way. For one thing, it gives a good explanation for why Castaway acts the way that he does in "The Journey", his reason for hating the gargoyles so much and wanting to ruthlessly kill Goliath; take away the "He's really Jon Canmore" bit, as your successors at The Goliath Chronicles did, and he becomes more of an unsolvable mystery. Also, I noticed a few clues to that in "The Journey" - his name, for example (the moment that I heard the name "Castaway" the first time that I watched "The Journey", I automatically thought of the Canmores, since they'd used surnames beginning with hard C's throughout "Hunter's Moon" for their aliases), and also the fact that, if you look closely enough at his Quarryman badge, you can see the three red scratches of the Hunter protruding from beneath it. But at any rate, I do feel that, even without your own words, the notion that Castaway is really Jon makes the most convincing explanation for him.
Plus there's his last line: "Dream of me, Goliath! Dream of me!" said with a Scotish accent ala Canmore as opposed to Castaway's (phony) English accent.
In "Hunter's Moon", when Demona's looking over Robyn Canmore/Correy's references, she mentions that they come from Florence, Edinburgh, and the Sorbonne. What I found interesting about this part is that the three flashbacks in "Hunter's Moon" take place in Scotland (where Edinburgh is - although the flashback in question did not actually take place in Edinburgh, of course), Florence, and Paris (and the Sorbonne is in Paris). Was this deliberate?
In your opinion, was there a streak of cowardice in the Canmores? I've wondered about that for several reasons. For one thing, there's their habit of wearing masks or hoods in their "Hunter" role, which Goliath definitely views as cowardice in "The Journey". Also, I noticed some definite marks of it in the behavior of Duncan, Canmore, and Jon Canmore/Castaway. Duncan plots against the lives of the members of Clan Moray purely on his own unbased fears that they may attempt to overthrow him and seize the Scottish throne for themselves and the words of three old hags, and uses a hired assassin (Gillecomgain) to do his dirty work. He attempts to destroy Demona's clan in their stone sleep in 1040 while they are helpless and defenceless. When he goes up against Macbeth in battle, he tries to win through having his sidekick Macduff stab him in the back. Canmore, similarly, when he "slays" Macbeth, doesn't do so in fair combat, but by stabbing him in the back as well while Macbeth is arguing with Demona. Jon Canmore keeps on backing down whenever he has the opportunity to stand up for the gargoyles, and takes the final step of becoming Castaway after placing the blame of his maiming his brother on the gargoyles rather than taking the responsibility on his own shoulders. So, to repeat my question, does cowardice run in the Canmore family?
Yep. And I wouldn't necessarily leave out Jason or Robyn either, though perhaps the cowardice takes a different form with them.
okay greg here is a question that you might find intelligent...
in the hunters moon part 2. we are in italy in 1492...THE HUNTER HAS A FLYING CONTRAPTION. THE ONLY ONE I KNOW THAT MADE A FLIGHT VEICHLE EVEN CLOSE TO THE IDEA OF FLIGHT WAS LEONARDO DA VINCI.
1. is leonardo da vinci the hunter in that flashback
2. if not, does leonardo know the hunters, or did the hunter steal his idea or what not.
3. if i am off the track on this can you explain where the hunter got that flight thing
2. There must be some connection.
3. You're not off track.
Me again. Why did Duncan choose to become the Hunter?
It gave him a psychological edge against his enemies.
I couldn't find this question anywhere but if I just missed it and it's there in the archives, feel free to ignore, so here it is....
In all the centuries that the Canmores were hunting Demona, did it ever occur to any of them that there was something strange about the fact that they were hunting the same gargoyle for centuries when gargoyles only have twice the lifespan of a human?(That's around 200 years right?)I know i'd think there was something odd going on.I mean, did they know she was immortal, or was this hunter thing something they followed blindly just because their ancestors did?
Thanks for your time, and the show.
They thought she (and all gargoyles) were demons. They didn't know about the half-speed aging thing.
someone told me that jon canmore and jon castaway are the same person, and it makes alot of sense, but i just want to know....is it true???
i know you didnt have a large hand in the Goliath Chronicles, ( Youre probably still having nightmares over the way they screwed up your master plan) but you probably know, or perhaps influenced this....
Yes, in my head. I did write and edit "The Journey", where Castaway is introduced.
You said that the Gargoyles living in the year 2158 are barley tolarated and evils like the Illuminati society and he Quarrymen would still be around. For example the Klu Klux Klan is still around today but KKK attacks on visible minorities is extremly rare or almost never happen. would Quarrymen attacks on Gargoyles be rare or common in 2158?
Before Gillecomgain's murder of Findlaech in 1020, had he carried out other assassinations with human (as opposed to gargoyle) victims? I ask this because of Findlaech's line, "You are the Hunter... but who sent you to hunt me?", which suggests that the Hunter had gained a reputation for that sort of thing.
Bodhe's son (Gruoch's brother) MacBodhe died somewhere in there. But I don't have my references here at home, so I can't remember when in the chronology MacBodhe's murder occured.
But perhaps it explains a little bit about Bodhe's behaviour.
I was thinking recently about Demona and the Canmores/Hunters, and it dawned on me that it's a lot like the Montagues and Caputlets of 'Romeo and Juliet'. Both involve two 'families' battling each other over a past greivance, one whose cause unfortunately became lost in the past (for Gargoyles, it's some kid getting slashed in the face, and we never learn the cause in 'R&J'). In both, the drive for revenge becomes the driving force for keeping the feud going. It's kind of tragic that in both stories, something as low as vengence causes so much pain on both sides. So, was that intentional or did I just come across one of those universal themes?
Largely the universal theme thing. The obvious piece that's missing to make it truly parallel R&J is the young lovers. And I don't think that Jason & Elisa really fill those rolls, wouldn't you agree?
I was going to do a much more dead-on R&J riff in NEW OLYMPIANS with Terry Chung and Sphinx.
In your opinion, do the general public and the authorities in New York know that John Castaway is the leader of the Quarrymen? (I don't mean that he's Jon Canmore, but simply that the "John Castaway" who first appeared in New York after the events in "Hunter's Moon" and the Quarryman leader are the same person). Or does Castaway go for the same "hidden identities" in the Quarrymen as the Ku Klux Klan go for?
John Castaway represents the Quarrymen's "PUBLIC FACE", i.e. it's political arm. But because he wears a mask, no one can tie him specifically to any specific damage the Quarrymen have done.
Hi mr. Weisman,
I noticed that in Hunter's Moon 1-2-3, Jon and Robyn weren't wearing any gloves while in they were in their Hunter suit. Was that dangerous, since they are wanted criminals and the authorities could use their finger prints to track them?
Fingerprints help you identify, not track. Big airships and costumes help with that too.
What stops the Quarrymen from shooting the gargoyles during the day? They sleep outside and it would be easy for
them to shoot them with a gun in a helicopter, without stepping a foot on the castle. Do the gargoyles roost inside
now, as a consequence of the danger of being smashed?
I think whenever possible, the Quarrymen would prefer to maintain a lower profile. Blowing things up by helicopter isn't ideal when they can use a hammer.
Also, as you may recall, the castle has its own defense systems. But the issue of whether the Gargs could continue to sleep outside would have been dealt with post-"Journey".
1)Will any of the Canmores/Castaways ever take up the Hunter's mask again?
2)If yes, how long will they have it for, a night, a month?
1. Yes. Robyn in BAD GUYS.
Would John Casterway ever reconcile with his sibiling
Jason and Robin Canmore?
Ever's a long time.
I was thinking today about the Quarrymen and the Ku Klux Klan. One of my favorite quotes in "The Journey" was Goliath's "Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood".
We were discussing the Klan in US History today and I got really worked up and went into a rant about how if the Klan are a bunch of cowards who are too afraid to show their faces. I'm half Jewish so I take everything the Klan does personally (I would even if not). And then I thought about Goliath's quote, and it really spoke to me in that scene. It was brilliant. I applaud you for it.
Did you have these sentiments in mind when you wrote "The Journey"?
You said that the Canmore name would have died out and there would be Castaways and Monmouths,but what name would Jason Canmore, his wife and his kids,(if he had any) take?
I don't yet know whether Jason had any kids.
1) Who has more money, Macbeth or Xanatos?
2) How much money do the Canmores have?
3) Just how much did the Pack profit financially from their tv show?
1. From a liquid standpoint, Xanatos. Macbeth may have some extremely valuable items, that would be worth a fortune if he was willing to part with them, but he's largely not...
2. An extremely large trust.
3. Quite a bit. But not as much as Xanatos did.
I had a couple of questions regarding the double date you said you planned on sending Elisa and Goliath on.
1)In your mind, would Goliath have been dating Delilah out of any real interest in her as a person, or would it only have been a superficial attraction based on her resemblance to Elisa?
2)Obviously, Elisa wouldn't be thrilled about the idea of Goliath dating anyone. Do you think, however, that she would resent Goliath (either consciously or subconciously) for dating Delilah, who basically looks like a gargoyle version of herself? I ask this mainly due to the events of "The Mirror." Goliath's statment about not recognizing her beauty when she was human, coupled with his reluctance to answer her question as to whether he thought she was ugly, could be interpreted to mean that he only found her beautiful when she had a gargoyle's form.(Granted, I think you stated previously that this wasn't what you meant for him to be saying, but it could be interpreted that way)
3)You said you were considering Jason as a potential date for Elisa. Given the fact that Elisa told him in Hunter's Moon 3 that there was someone in her life who would always come before him, wouldn't it be uncharacteristically cruel for her to then turn around and make him think he had a chance with her after all?
1. I think it would have had a lot MORE to do with the fact that Elisa WANTED him to "see other people, gargoyles, whatever..." Delilah is the only real option in NYC at this time.
2. O.K., for starters, saying "they're dating" is pushing it. Rather, Elisa and Goliath experiment with not seeing each other. Their dates (for this one night) are basically being used a bit. So, yes, I think seeing Goliath with Delilah would disturb Elisa. And frankly, seeing Delilah period is just disturbing for Elisa. But seeing Elisa with another man would also disturb Goliath. They're trying to make the best of their mutual decision that seeing each other is impossible. But let's just say the date does not go smoothly.
And by the way, you're misrepresenting me with regards to "The Mirror". I think in fact that Goliath did NOT find Elisa sexually attractive until "The Mirror" allowed him to see her through a gargoyle's eyes. There was always chemistry there. But it was based on (a) her physical attraction to him and (b) a strong emotional and spiritual connection. After "The Mirror", Goliath also maintained a physical attraction to Elisa. He was no longer blinded by her human characteristics.
3. Would it be any crueler for her to go out with Morgan, who had no idea about her relationship with G? At least Jason wouldn't be blind-sided. Anyway, she isn't trying to be cruel. This is a sincere attempt. As far as her rational mind is concerned, the guy might really have a chance if things work out. I'm not saying there's no potential for cruelty involved. Welcome to the world of dating. But in any case, it's one date. A first date. So let's not over-react.
1.What happened to Canmores mother?
I'd like to apologize ahead of time if this question has been asked but I checked the archives and I couldn't find it. Soooo...
Would Jon Canmore/Castaway keep trying to kill Demona if he found out she was immortal, since he seems to be VERY hell bent on killing her? Would he refuse to believe it, and try anyway?
He'd keep trying. But he's sophisticated enough to try methods that he felt had at least a chance of working. These methods would depend on what he knows at any given time. But, hell, Thailog found a way. ("Sanctuary") He failed, but he found a way. If he can do it, so can someone else.
Hey hey. I still remember seeing the first episode of Gargoyles. I guess I was about 9 or so. I still get goosebumps when I watch the intro. And I wasnt surprised to read that you work on the ST series. I've watched it too from its first broadcast (in my area anyway). I think I've only missed it 3 times but seeing how they dont play the episodes in any specific order odds are I havent missed anything I havent already seen. But onto my question. Can you sum up the Goliath Chronacles for me? I never saw them since for a while I didnt have cable and dont currently have toon disney. Thanks.
Erin says: I think that was a very good question. I have a friend at school and his name is Nicholas. And he likes the GARGOYLES show too. And Nicholas has a nickname, and his nickname is Nick.
Greg says: I'll sum up "The Journey" which was the first episode of THE GOLIATH CHRONICLES: Goliath is brooding about the loss of the Clock Tower and about how humanity seems to be perpetually at odds with the Gargoyles. He visits Elisa. And they are attacked by Quarrymen, a KKK-esque organization that hates Gargoyles. Elisa & Goliath survive, and Goliath realizes his Journey isn't over. (A lot more happens, but you asked me to sum up.) As for the other 12 episodes of Chronicles, well, I had nothing to do with them. They aren't cannon in my mind. And I'm not qualified to describe them to you. Ask in a comment room.
On the topic of Hunters:
1) For those Hunters over the years who got married: What kind of relationship did they have with their spouse? Was there an understanding of the Hunter's need to kill mythical creatures, or did the Hunter keep it secret?
2) Were there other instances before Jason, Robyn, and Jon in which more than one Hunter existed at the same time?
3) Were there any more female Hunters besides Robyn, or was she the first?
4) Macbeth is an example of someone who was not part of the Canmore feud, but still took on the Hunter identity. Were there any more?
1. You're generalizing. There's an individual story in every Hunter.
2. Probably not, otherwise they aren't unique. But I don't pretend to know ALL the stories yet.
3. I doubt she was first.
(For once, I'm not trying to be cagy. But there have been a lot of years worth of Hunters. I haven't tapped in to all of it yet.)
We were having a discussion about Gillecomgain in the comment room this week, and I thought that I'd ask you for your opinion on it. In your thoughts, was Demona's attack upon Gillecomgain the cause of his becoming the Hunter, or more of a catalyst? I felt that much of Gillecomgain's "career choice" came from his own internal issues (he seemed to have a strong yearning for power, and also had a very unsympathetic father), but others feel that it was more thanks to Demona than to any "inner darkness". What's your thoughts on him?
I think Demona gave him drive and focus.
But I think his father gave him the darkness.
Do the Canmores (or the Castaways of the future) see themselves as kind of Van Helsing figures? A family dedicating their lives to the pursuit and destruction of a race of beings most people don't believe in.
No. Because, by 1996 most people do believe.
During the Weird Sisters' barrage of questions toward MacBeth when they were trying to persuade him not to kill Demona, they said something like, "Did your own death save Luarch from…" argh I can't think of Duncan's son's name, but you know who I mean. My question is, what exactly happened in that battle? If Luarch was killed, then the Canmores claimed the crown again… If that's true, then how long was the Canmore family on the throne? It's kind of scary to think of the Hunters as kings…
The Canmore line ruled Scotland for generations.
Another episode by episode ramble. Feedback encouraged.
So here's where all that great continuity got us in major trouble.
The episodes were all designed to play in a certain order. But I didn't tell my bosses that in advance. I know it sounds sneaky, but it wasn't really. We wrote the darn things and sent them off in order. It never occured to me they wouldn't be able to come back and air in order. I mean, how could a newer episode get the jump on an older one? How could an older episode not be ready before a newer one? Then the footage came back on "Enter Macbeth".
This was the first episode not animated in Japan. And immediately we knew we were in trouble. I'm not talking about the version you all have seen. The one that aired. I'm talking about stuff you never saw. Much of the original footage we got was unusable. This wasn't about just calling retakes. This wasn't about us bitching how "Thrill" wasn't as well animated as "Awakening". This was a major disaster. So my bosses said: "Air the next one." And I responded, "We can't."
And not just because they were all designed to air in order. It was a horrible coincidence, but this episode, this episode that was unairable, was a tentpole. Yeah, if Thrill or Temptation had been reordered it would have been sad. Same with "The Edge" and "Long Way To Morning". But big deal, right? Better to get a new episode out and not make the audience deal with repeats this early in the season. (Remember, we had aired our first five episodes in one week. This was only week five. In those days, week five was considered way too early in the year for reruns.)
But this was the follow-up to Elisa's injury. It was important to us that we continue our policy of "repercussions". We put her on crutches to show that a gunshot wasn't something that was solved in twenty-two minutes. This was an ongoing recovery. If you pulled the crutches out by airing Edge next, you blew out the sense of repercussions.
But that wasn't the clincher. Of course, the clincher was the Clock Tower. This was the episode where the Gargs were "banished" from the castle and moved to the Clock Tower. That was a major shift. If we cut straight to Edge, the audience would be lost. Fortunately, Gary was convinced. In a way, I was lucky that our first crisis of order came on such a pivotal "tentpole" episode. We couldn't reorder these. So we went with reruns. But it was a lesson learned. And it would effect the way we approached the second season.
But meanwhile, we had the problem at hand. We couldn't reanimate the entire show. So we picked shots to redo judiciously. There are still some awful looking scenes. When Goliath says, "How Dare You?!" to Elisa, he looks like an Animaniacs parody of Goliath. And that sarcophogus/iron maiden thing that Goliath follows Macbeth through looks like a prop out of CHIP N DALE'S RESCUE RANGERS. (Another perfectly good series, but with a slightly different art style, if you know what I mean.) Or how about the GIANT remote that Macbeth pulls from his duster in order to summon his ship? "Enter Macbeth" is still, as aired, the worst looking episode of the first season. And that really killed Frank and I, because we both really loved this story. We were sure that the bad animation would kill any interest in Macbeth. The fact that generally, the character did catch hold of fandom's collective imagination is a true testament to the work of Steve Perry, Michael Reaves, John Rhys-Davies and Jamie Thomason. And, oh, yes... William Shakespeare.
The weak picture forced us to use a lot of little tricks to get a final cut. One thing we did, which I regret, is reuse dialogue. Elisa says "You aren't safe here" like three times. And it isn't three different takes. It's just the exact same take reprinted and reused. Lex & Brooklyn also reuse lines to get Bronx to find Goliath. That sort of thing drives me nuts.
There is one really nice moment in the animation. When Macbeth chooses his sword off the wall, the reflection effect is quite sweet. And I also like the down shot of Bronx running right down the middle of Broadway (the street not the gargoyle). I also love how Goliath makes no attempt to hide. That really spoke to the Gargoyles attitude about living among humans. They wouldn't hold press conferences, but they would not cower.
Anyway, we ran reruns. Awakenings. And obviously all five episodes on five consecutive weeks. That might have been a good thing for people who had heard about the show by word of mouth in week two or later and needed to catch up. But for anyone who had been following the show from its premiere, it was a long time to wait for new episodes. By the time we came back, so much time had passed since "Deadly Force" that we felt the need to put a "Previously on Gargoyles" at the head of the episode. Another trick I cribbed from HILL STREET BLUES. Cartoons rarely did that sort of thing. Sure multi-parters had to. But single episodes... For some reason, it made me feel very grown up. (Which only proves how immature I really am.) The "Previously" also allowed us to cut 30 more seconds of bad looking footage out of the episode. That little bonus was something I'd remember for season two as well.
As we pushed guns in the previous episode, this one is laced with the imagery and language of home. What is it? What makes it? What price is one willing to pay to keep or secure it? There are four homes depicted. Well, really five. The Gargoyles' castle. Xanatos' prison. Macbeth's mansion. The Clock Tower. And the Castle again, once it is reclaimed by Xanatos and thus becomes a very, very different place.
I tried to make sure, as much as possible, that every episode had that kind of underlying theme. (I recently tried with very limited success to do the same thing in MAX STEEL. Someone asked me once, why the one-word S-Titles for all the Max Steel episodes. They were my attempt to make me and the writers focus on the theme of each story.)
And how do all these homes turn out? Macbeth is so obsessed that he loses his home to a fire. Xanatos finally gets out of prison. (Not on Halloween by the way, or that would make the dates depicted in Double Jeopardy innacurate. Obviously, Halloween was circled on his calendar because the guy just loves Halloween. And after all, Owen specifically says in a LATER scene that Xanatos has one week left before he gets out. The wall calendar had shown only a few days.) The Gargoyles lose the castle, gain the clock tower, but realize that home is literally where the heart is. And Xanatos... well all other concerns of Grimorum and gargoyle of destruction and competition pale next to the simple pleasure of being back home.
And how many of you were suprised that the Gargoyles lost the castle? That was supposed to be another pretty shocking development. I mean, sure, Batman might lose the Batcave for an episode, but for 56 episodes? When Goliath said "We'll be back to claim that which is ours" at the end, did most of you think he'd be back next week? Next month? By the time, the gang finally did return in chapter 65, did anyone still remember Goliath's vow?
I've discussed this before, but Macbeth's origins (at least in terms of our series) were (ironically) an early attempt to play the notion of THE HUNTER. I was looking for someone human who could physically take on the Gargoyles as prey. Someone smart, with an agenda. We actually started with the notion of trying to create our own KRAVEN THE HUNTER type character. But it quickly moved in its own direction. Frankly, away from Kraven and more toward BATMAN. In those days, we were constantly being told that we would be accused of ripping off Batman. So Frank, Michael and I decided to create a villain who, at least in M.O. would be our Batman.
I had a semi-separate idea to add a human to the cast who was from Goliath's time. Thus creating a good thematic nemesis or opposite for him. (The key to creating a good villain, in my opinion.) But this villain would have lived through the centuries. So that he was familiar with the very latest in technology. This dove-tailed with our anti-Batman, and was also exactly how we viewed Demona. So it soon became clear to Michael and I that the two characters must be connected in some way. That suggested that he shouldn't merely be 1000 years old. He should be Scottish as well. All that was left was a name. And given my love of Shakespeare, I'm surprised it took me so long to figure it out. Our nemesis was Macbeth himself. An immortal Scottish King. What Scottish King was more immortal than Macbeth? More mortal too for that matter.
This was the beginning of countless Shakespearian references that I would either slide (or force) into the show, or that the writers would stick in knowing I was a sucker for them. And I love the little exchange between Lex & Brooklyn...
LEX: "Wasn't "Macbeth" the name of that play by that new writer Shakespeare that Goliath was talking about?"
BROOKLYN: "Have you read it?"
LEX: "No. Have you?"
BROOKLYN: "No. But maybe we should."
This was my little way of trying to encourage our viewers to read or at least learn about the play. If they wanted to know who Macbeth was, it wouldn't hurt to go to the primary source.
And at the time, Shakespeare was my primary source for Macbeth. This was long before Tuppence Macintyre and Monique Beatty did all their research for me for "City of Stone". Back then, the only Macbeth I knew about was Shakespeare's.
We gave him a sense of honor, but a twisted one. And we gave him a very interesting motivation. I didn't yet know the particulars, but this guy was after Demona in a major way. He had stained glass windows in his home depicting the two of them. He was the man who named her. It was all pretty intriguing stuff to me. I love the exchange between him and Goliath. Goliath is a pawn. Mac wants the queen and believes that endangering Goliath is the surest way to ensnare Demona. And how does Goliath respond? By gum, if he doesn't laugh -- MANIACALLY!! And watch how the tables turn. Macbeth is not infallible and suddenly Goliath has him on the defensive. Goliath even uses a MACE!! Great stuff.
Incidentally, we had in the script described Macbeth as wearing a thin layer of exo-armor. And Goliath was supposed to dig his claws into it. Macbeth would escape by detaching from the armor. Instead, the artists did the bit with the duster coat. But I remembered the claws in armor thing and eventually found a place for it... in HUNTER'S MOON, PART THREE.
Finally, watching the episode tonight, my five year old daughter said she spotted the Mona Lisa on Macbeth's wall. I didn't see it. But I believe her. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if that was the original. Too bad about that fire.
Since you mentioned Thor in your last batch of responses, that reminded me of something that I'd been meaning to ask you for some time. You mentioned that the Eye of Odin came from a "Gargoyles" computer game (and added that you thought that the folks who did the computer game had a better, more Norse, design for the Eye than did the series). I read that in the computer game, they had a "Thor" robot as an opponent for Goliath at one point, armed with a high-tech hammer. Was the hammer an at least partial inspiration for the Quarrymen's hammers in "The Journey"?
If so, it was pretty subconscious. As I don't remember the Thor robot or the hammer, even with you mentioning it now. Of course, I never played the game.
But frankly, I think the hammers were a natural extension of the whole Quarrymen/Freemason idea. What's a gargoyles natural enemy? A hammer.
Sometimes a hammer is just a hammer.
A couple of questions about the Quarrymen.
1. What is the relationship between them and the authorities in New York? While obviously the local government figures in Manhattan don't know that the gargoyles are actually a race, and therefore wouldn't interpret the Quarrymen as a hate group, there is the fact that these people could be viewed as vigilantes, are armed with potentially dangerous high-tech weaponry, and their leader is clearly the unstable sort. Would the New York authorities be willing to tolerate them?
2. You mentioned that the Quarrymen would still be around in 2158. What sort of legal status do they have by then? Would they have become more of a criminal organization, like the Pack, by that time, outside the law and the mainstream public, or would they have some fleeting legitimacy left?
1. Not Matt.
2. Legal status? Again, I have always seen them as a KKK parallel. It never ever quite goes away.
Allan Cumming was the voice of Castaway in "The Journey"? I thought it was Scott Cleverdon. Why the cast change?
Scott was massively unavailable at the time. So was Marina Sirtis, forcing us to recast Alan in the roll of Jon Canmore/John Castaway and Tress MacNeill in the roll of Margot Yale. Both Alan and Tress were terrific, but I must admit I was sorry we weren't able to use the originals.
Okay, some stuff about the Canmores:
We now know that Robyn and Dingo would've married and had kids under the Monmouth name. Ditto with Jon, some unknown woman, and the Castaway name. And that the Canmore name would've died out. So...
1)What about Jason? Did he never marry, or marry and not have kids?
2)a>Who does Jon marry?
b>Is she anti-gargoyle as well?
(BTW, this next thing is more of a comment than a question, so I'm not trying to break the 'seperate topics on seperate posts' rule.)
You used to read "Bone"? How COULD you stop?! (I'm addicted, myself. I love it!) Anyway, there are two people that I REALLY admire for their ideas: Jeff Smith, for his artistic creativeness(who else could've thought up a rat creature?) as well as his storyline; and, of course, you, for combining so many legends and myths into one great believable story. I just thought it cool that one was a fan of the other. I'll have to write Jeff and find out if he's every watched "Gargoyles" ^_^
Thanx for everything!
1. I don't want to answer this now.
Actually, a comment on a separate topic should be posted separately. So what if it's not a question? I may want to comment on the comment. (And come on, weren't you inviting just that.) How hard is it to post these things separately?
Anyway, I don't recall if Jeff Smith had ever seen Gargoyles. I do know that when I was a Disney TV Executive, I tried to get Jeff to work with us on a BONE series. He and I had a number of pleasant phone conversations, but ultimately, he had his heart set on a feature film. As a TV Exec, I couldn't offer that.
According to actual history, Canmore was married twice: the first time to Ingebjorg, the widow of Earl Thorfinn of Orkney (presumably the same Thorfinn that you mentioned once here of having planned to bring him into "City of Stone" but being unable to find room for him), and the second to Princess Margaret of England, one of the survivors of the old English royal family that was deposed by William the Conqueror (also known as St. Margaret of Scotland). In your vision, which marriage were Jason, Robyn, and Jon Canmore descended from - or did you work out that part yet?
I was thinking of a less legitimate heir.
by 2158 you said that gargoyles would have been accepted what would have happened to jon castaway and the qaurreymen?
I didn't say accepted. Perhaps tolerated would be a better word. The Quarrymen would still exist. Castaway himself would be long dead.
1.Why (medical) is Jason paralysed?
2.Is there any chance left, that one day due medical progress an operation could make him able to walk again?
Btw. : Happy Birthday!
1. Spinal trauma.
2. This may sound flip, but I don't mean for it to: If Christopher Reeve manages to walk again, then Jason can too. But if our science can't solve that problem, then I'm not going to let science in the Garg Universe solve it either. Which doesn't mean, Jason can't put on an exo-skeleton right now. But if we're talking about walking under his own power... then not until we crack it here.
And thanks for the Birthday wishes. (Of course, you wished 'em back in September and it's February now, but they are still appreciated. And I am catching up a little.)
1. How old is The Director?
2. What are the ages of the rest of the BAD GUYS cast?
1. Uh, don't hold me to this, but I'd say 50.
2. Robyn Canmore was 14 in 1980.
Dingo was in his mid-thirties in 1994.
Matrix was born in 1995.
Fang was in his early thirties in 1994.
Yama was in his late twenties (biologically) in 1996.
When "City of Stone" was first written and produced were you planning that the Hunter legacy would continue through the Canmore family or had you thought that Macbeth had taken up the mask and was now the last of the Hunters?
Well, it's more complicated then that.
"City of Stone" was originally pitched as a Direct to Video movie. My boss, Gary Krisel, immediately rejected it as a video. (Though, obviously, he had no problem with it being done as episodes.) He felt that a Gargoyle video needed to focus on our heroes -- and I had to admit that "City" was really the story of two of our villains: Macbeth and Demona. Goliath and company have supporting roles at best.
But Gary liked the HUNTER angle. So immediately, Michael Reaves and I came up with the basic story idea for "Hunter's Moon". We made a sincere effort to make both multi-parters stand independent of each other. "City" came first, but the two ideas were born so close together, I can't really give you a definitive answer to your either/or question except to say (in my smart-ass fashion) "Both."
Dear Mr. Wiseman:
What became of the new hunters right after the end of Gargoyles' 2nd Season? I mean did Jason and her sister went to jail for destroying the police station? Was their other brother responsible for creation the Quarrymen? Did the Quarrymen forced Jason to use his technology on the Gargoyles? Did Jason became a civil rights activist or what?
I hope I'm not asking to much. I'm just curious.
Jason went to a halfway house where he could rehab and serve out his sentence under some semblance of restriction.
Robyn was coerced into leading the Redemption Squad (aka Bad Guys).
Jon changed his name to John Castaway and became the founder of the Quarrymen.
Jason would be the subject of Jon, Robyn and Elisa's on-going interest -- as he personally struggled to redirect his life.
1. Would the Canmore as Hunter's dynasty still exist in some form in 2158?
2. Would we have seen Canmore/Castaway descendents in G2158?
1 & 2. The Canmores would be gone. But the Monmouths and the Castaways would survive -- in opposition.
The Quarrymen would still exist.
In HUNTER'S MOON 3, the date (September 28) that you picked for the confrontation between Charles Canmore and Demona in Paris, did you have a specific reason for picking that date or was it just chosen at random?
(I wonder because September 28 1980 was my 2nd birthday and when I saw the date on the screen, I immediately sat up.)
My birthday is September 28th too. Although I wasn't two in 1980.
What do you you think would be the reaction of the Canmore siblings (especially Jon) if they found out that Demona literally killed their father with one hand tied behind her back? (She was holding onto the Praying Gargoyle at the time he attacked her.)
Gee. I think they'd dance a jig.
Whaddaya think their reactions would be?