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Kiddo writes...

Hey, thanks for hours of entertainment through your shows. I just recently finished watching the canon run of Gargoyles on DVD through the library (Me and a friend greatly enjoyed the journey, and had a lot of fun watching it!) after growing up on your other shows, like Young Justice and Spectacular Spider-Man. So, thank you, and as I’m new here, I’d figure I’d try and put a question that isn’t quite so... obvious.
Did Eliza’s palate change much after the Avalon World Tour?

Greg responds...

Um... sure.

Response recorded on August 17, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

Rewatched "Hunter's Moon" yesterday (Sunday) on DVD - all three parts.

I've mentioned before spotting a lot of mentions of hunting, usually applied to humans going after gargoyles with hostile intent, and it struck me that this made it appropriate that the Hunters would be the gargoyles' adversaries in the finale. (Well, the Disney Afternoon finale/Season Two finale.)

And it struck me that the Hunters were the most dangerous opponents that the gargoyles faced in modern times, judging by results. They blew up the clock tower, destroying the gargoyles' home, and then exposed them to the public. The former was partly undone by the gargoyles getting their old home (the castle) back by the end of the episode, but not the latter - now the gargoyles are facing an alarmed public (even though they're safe at the end - for the moment). None of the gargoyles' other adversaries in modern times have been able to inflict that much damage on them. To top it, you'd have to go back to 994 and the Wyvern Massacre.

A few things that struck me this time around:

Goliath and Elisa are actually openly speaking to each other and even sharing a brief embrace on board the passenger train, just after foiling the robbery; fortunately, the passengers apparently didn't notice that.

Hudson greets the returning gargoyles as "lads" - then quickly adding in "And lassie, of course", for Angela. It reminded me of his use of just "lads" for the younger gargoyles in "Possession" that I mentioned in my post on it - apparently he's getting more adjusted now to Angela's presence in the clan.

The trio's clash with Demona in Part One seems the last "trio action" in the series; they're increasingly split up (or else acting with the rest of the clan present) after this.

Lexington and Brooklyn's shared uneasy glances when they return to the clock tower with Goliath near the end of Part Two seemed all the stronger when I realized "the audience knows that Robyn and Jon survived Goliath's fight with them, but Lex and Brooklyn don't - from their perspective, Goliath had apparently killed those two."

Jon Canmore's cry about the gargoyles when he's facing Jason at the end, "They killed dad!", struck me as a sign of how (even before shooting Jason) he was losing it; it was Demona who killed Charles Canmore, none of the Manhattan clan were even present at the event, and Jon was there so he knows it.

Broadway shows how much his attitude towards reading has changed since the start of "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time" when he's talking to Angela about how great the castle library is (and we'll see them there together in "The Journey").

This story really does seem like a good conclusion for the series in so many ways - the gargoyles are back in the castle again, their war with Xanatos is (seemingly) over, they'd defeated Demona's big scheme to wipe out humanity, Elisa finally admitted her feelings for Goliath and even kissed him. Except there's a big loose end with the gargoyles' existence being made public, and most of the New Yorkers aren't too happy about it. (Brooklyn's "And so it begins" remark does also support the feeling that the story could continue past this spot.) But it certainly makes a good season finale.

Oh, and I counted the number of "claw-mark transitions" in the entire two seasons during this review - 28 in all.

Greg responds...

We were pretty happy with it.

Response recorded on August 17, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

New thoughts and observations on "Possession", which I also rewatched on DVD today.

Coldfire and Coldsteel's bodies are initially covered by cloths; while it serves the function of keeping their nature secret from the audience at first, it also does a good job of echoing the "Frankenstein" tone of Coldstone's introduction in "Re-Awakening".

When Goliath and Hudson return to the clock tower from patrol, Hudson initially says "lads" - and just that, with no mention that there should be a "lass" among them as well. We get an echo of this, I recall, in "Hunter's Moon Part One" when he addresses the clan as "lads", then remembers Angela and adds "lass" in; this moment brought that scene to mind.

Coldstone's line near the end about how "we truly lived again" echoed Goliath's "we live again" words in the opening narration, though I don't know if it was intentional.

Greg responds...

It's a pretty safe bet that most everything is intentional. (Or that I will intentionally take credit for it.) But seriously, we were very aware of pushing call back moments throughout. I do that on every series I produce.

Response recorded on August 17, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

I watched "Turf" on DVD yesterday as well, but don't have anything new to say about it, so my new thoughts on "The Reckoning", which I watched with "Possession" on DVD today.

In Act I, Hudson warns Angela that her mother "is capable of anything". Angela later uses those exact words when confronting Demona in Act III.

Elisa gets bitten by a mosquito while in the Labyrinth; I wonder if that was the moment when Sevarius and Thailog acquired her DNA for Delilah; it'd certainly be a "playing fair with the audience" moment.

While Demona professes outrage over Angela's claim to be her daughter, her eyes aren't glowing red - and later we learn that she'd known Angela to be her daughter all along. The "eyes not glowing red" part makes a good hint to the audience that she was feigning anger and disbelief.

Greg responds...

That mosquito is exactly when Elisa's DNA was taken for later use in creating Delilah.

Response recorded on August 17, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

Rewatched "Vendettas" today - this time around, I spotted what looked like a small village in the opening shot (near the former site of Castle Wyvern). A minor detail, I know, but I liked the discovery of a village or small town in the area.

Greg responds...

Yep. Especially one that the Vikings haven't sacked for a century or ten.

Response recorded on August 17, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

Rewatched "The Gathering" (both episodes) on DVD today. A few new things I noticed about it.

A minor detail, but which I find touching: when Renard learns about Anastasia's remarriage,, he sadly clasps her hand.

The letter X is prominent among the Xanatoses: Xanatos, FoX, and AleXander. And then I thought of LeXington, who isn't one of the family, but who's close to Alex, and who became Xanatos's secret successor in "Future Tense". (And there's that bit, also, in your "Gargoyles 2198" piece, about the Lexington-Xanatos Corporation.)

Goliath's homecoming makes a lovely contrast with "Future Tense", as he warmly embraces the overjoyed Brooklyn and Lexington (the two members of the clan who'd been bitter towards his late return in "Future Tense") and Hudson says "I knew you hadn't abandoned us." (While Broadway hugs Elisa, tying in with his being the closest to her among the trio, ever since "Deadly Force".)

One feature of Goliath's pondering the possibility that Avalon sent him to Manhattan to stop Oberon from taking Alex away; if his speculation was correct, that means that Avalon was, in a way, going against its lord and master. Though that made sense when I thought about it; without going too deeply into hypotheticals, I suspect that things would have not gone well for Avalon if Oberon *had* spirited Alex away (no way would his parents have accepted that), and Avalon would be sparing itself and its lord and master a lot of potential trouble in thwarting him.

You mentioned once that you wanted to have Puck break the fourth wall, but the rest of the production team objected to it. I noticed that he does come close, though, when he turns towards the camera while saying "I'm on a roll". (And when somebody *did* break the fourth wall, it was Brooklyn instead.)

At the very end, Broadway turns to stone shortly before the rest of the clan does.

Greg responds...

Interesting observations. Thanks for all these, Todd.

Response recorded on August 17, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

Rewatched "Future Tense" on DVD today. Things I noticed this time on it.

Bronx looks sad when Hudson's death is revealed; given the bond the two had showed throughout the series, I thought if both fitting and touching (even if it's not really Bronx).

Goliath tells Brooklyn "we thought our odyssey was fated". I thought "odyssey" an appropriate term, since Odysseus spent twenty years away from Ithaca, and Goliath supposedly spent forty years away from Manhattan - and since gargoyles age at half the speed of humans, twenty years for humans would translate to forty years for gargoyles. (I'll admit I'm reaching here - and it feels odd to be linking Goliath to Odysseus when I'd normally think of comparing a different "Gargoyles" character to Odysseus - a fellow Greek trickster....)

The Xanatos Program's intention of using the "World Wide Net" to download itself on every computer marks one of the extremely few occasions I can think of where the Internet was alluded to on "Gargoyles"; the only other example that comes to mind was Sevarius receiving his instructions for "kidnapping" Thailog via "electronic mail". (It also got mentioned in one of the Goliath Chronicles episodes, but that doesn't count.) The near-absence of the Internet from the series certainly makes it appear
technologically dated" from today's perspective.

Greg responds...

I think "odyssey" is a particular apt word. And though Goliath and Odysseus don't have a lot of character traits in common, I do think the comparison here was intentional. And they are both big, strong heroes.

The absence of something like the internet is less of a problem for me - in terms of dating the series - than, say, the brick-sized cellphones that Xanatos and others occasionally use.

Response recorded on August 17, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

Rewatched "Ill Met By Moonlight" today.

I spotted more hunting allusions in it (though this time, the gargoyles' "hunter" isn't a human); Titania's incantation to temporarily restrict Oberon's abilities includes the line "Till hunt be done", and Oberon says, after defeating Goliath, "And so ends the hunt". (He also evokes hunting imagery when he says "the rabbits would face the fox" - though I couldn't help thinking when he said it, "Technically, they're facing the fox's stepfather, though the audience isn't supposed to know that for another two episodes.")

Greg responds...

Nice.

Response recorded on August 17, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

Rewatched "Cloud Fathers" on DVD yesterday.

This time while watching it, I wondered how Bronx left Beth's apartment. Goliath and Angela glided off without him, and I didn't see him going out the door with the Mazas (which wouldn't have been an option in any case, for obvious reasons).

We get another bit of hunting "verbal imagery", though one of the rare occasions where it's not directed at gargoyles, when Xanatos refers to Coyote the Trickster as his "true quarry".

Coyote the Trickster disappearing when he got the Mazas to look away for a moment reminds me of the tradition about how, if you look away from the faerie-folk for even a moment, they can vanish.

Greg responds...

Don't really remember Bronx's exit without rewatching. But mightn't he have just walked down the outer wall of the building.

Response recorded on August 17, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

Rewatched "Bushido" today (I rewatched "Sentinel" yesterday, but had no new thoughts on it).

What most struck me this time around was the parallel to "Awakening", with Taro as like a less-serious version of Xanatos. The two specifics I noticed were the gargoyles' awakening in the theme park, which reminded me of the clan's first awakening in Manhattan, and their wondering if someone had moved the temple, which evoked Xanatos moving the castle to New York.

Greg responds...

Those parallels were very intentional.

Response recorded on August 17, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

Rewatched "The Green" today.

I might be reading too much into this, but I noted that the ones responsible for the theft of the Mayan Sun Amulet and the deaths of most of the Mayan clan were called "poachers" - a term for illegal hunters. Given the recurrent theme about gargoyles being hunted and facing danger from hunters that I've been paying close attention to in the 25th anniversary reviewing, I thought that an apt word choice.

This episode featured five "clawmark" transitions, the most I've noted to date in any individual episode of "Gargoyles". (I've been keeping track of those during the silver anniversary reviewing, and counted fifteen up to this point, of which five were in this episode - one-third, in other words.)

Greg responds...

Wow. That's a lot of claw wipes. But we also had more location transitions from Manhattan to the Green and back.

Response recorded on August 17, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

Rewatched "The New Olympians" on DVD today.

Continuing the "hunting" theme in "Gargoyles" that I've paid closer attention to this time around, I noticed that Ekidne described the New Olympians' ancestors as "hunted". (I also spotted a New Olympian extra who looked a lot like traditional depictions of Artemis/Diana, the goddess of the hunt - though I think I'm reading too much into that.)

Goliath's words to Angela about how they cannot wage war on an entire city remind me of his words to Demona in "Awakening Part Five" of how he cannot wage war upon an entire world.

Greg responds...

Also intentional. I love those kinds of callbacks.

Response recorded on August 16, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

Rewatched "Eye of the Storm" on DVD today.

I noticed, this time around, that after Goliath rescues Elisa from Odin, Odin cries "This isn't over!" - the same words that Hakon used after his initial attack on the castle was turned back at the start of the series. It struck me as appropriate, since they were both "Old Norse". (I don't know if that was intentional, though, or just a fortunate coincidence.)

Greg responds...

Intentional.

Response recorded on August 16, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

Rewatched "Pendragon" on DVD yesterday. A few observations from this time around.

Hudson recognizes the wind that heralds the arrival of King Arthur and Griff; I suspected that there's an interesting story behind that and how he came to know it. Most likely something that would be told in "Dark Ages".

Griff refers to Westminster Abbey as "my abbey" when initially confronting King Arthur - for me, it evoked Goliath speaking of "my castle" when confronting Elisa back in "Awakening Part Three". Evidently part of the gargoyles' territorial nature manifesting itself.

Macbeth immediately recognizes Griff as a gargoyle, though all his on-stage encounters with gargoyles up till then were with the Scottish variety. (Of course, most of the things that went on during those nine hundred years of wandering in his life, we don't know about - only his fighting at Bannockburn on the Scottish side, and taking part in the 1950 removal of the Stone of Destiny from Westminster Abbey.)

I really like the term "rookery poem" as a gargoyle counterpart to "nursery rhyme".

Greg responds...

Someone should write a book of rookery poems...

Response recorded on August 16, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

Rewatched "Mark of the Panther" on DVD today.

I've mentioned before how I've noticed a strong "hunting" motif running through "Gargoyles" during my reviewing it; this episode included more of that theme, though, for a change, it didn't involve humans going after gargoyles. Instead, it was the Panther Queen and, later, Fara Maku, hunting for Anansi, and then Tea and the poachers hunting panthers.

Elisa lists the body parts of panthers that poachers are after as skin, teeth, and claws. When Diane Maza tells the story of the Panther Queen shortly afterwards, her description of the Panther Queen stresses those same three attributes (well, fur rather than skin, but it's close enough), but now focusing on their beauty, rather than the monetary worth that motivated the poachers. (And when Anansi turns the Panther Queen into a human, the story stresses the Queen's loss of those same attributes.)

Goliath's explanation to Diane, when they're trapped in the pit, that he can only glide, not fly, echoed (for me) his explanation to Elisa on the ledge back in "Awakening Part Three". Like mother, like daughter....

Greg responds...

Yep...

Response recorded on August 16, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

Rewatched "The Hound of Ulster" yesterday, but I didn't have any new thoughts on it, so I skipped it over - and "Walkabout" today.

Things that struck me about "Walkabout" this time around:

I'd noticed this before, but Bronx growls at a kangaroo near the beginning. I wonder what he dislikes about them. (I also spotted a koala up in a tree - that I *hadn't* seen in past viewings.)

I was amused by Elisa's description of Dingo as "not one of the good guys" - since that could so easily be tweaked to "one of the bad guys". I don't know if you'd come up with the name for that spin-off at the time, of course.

Goliath at one point says "Aye, for now" - probably the one occasion where he says "Aye" - he usually leaves those Scottish-toned words to Hudson.

During the battle with the Matrix in the Dreamtime-world, Goliath imprisons it briefly within a dome that looks a lot like the domes it was producing in the waking world, and conjures up a shield with a sun-design upon it - a strange emblem for a gargoyle to bear.

Greg responds...

Maybe Bronx just had never seen a kangaroo before...

Response recorded on August 16, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

Rewatched "Grief" on DVD today.

The only new observation I have is that, this time, I noticed how Keith David did the "aged-up" Goliath; his voice sounded, while recognizably Goliath's, much older. I thought it another "mark of honor" for the "Gargoyles" voice cast.

Greg responds...

Yeah. Keith - and our whole cast - were just amazing.

Response recorded on August 16, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

Rewatched "M.I.A." today. One detail stood out to me this time; the human Londoners grouped in the background at the very end are the same ones we saw in Act I staring at the gargoyles in shock and alarm, when Leo and Una are confronting Goliath outside their shop. It made a pleasant touch, I thought, to see that those people have now recognized (judging from the way they were shown at the conclusion) that they didn't need to be scared of the gargoyles.

Greg responds...

Yep.

Response recorded on August 16, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

Rewatched "Sanctuary" on DVD today. New observations.

Elisa writes Macbeth's name as "MacBeth". Not quite as serious as the infamous "Servarius" error in "The Cage", but still a bit unfortunate.

I was amused to note that Demona barely even registers Elisa's presence in the middle of her fight with Macbeth, even though Elisa's calling out to both of them - until just before Elisa shoots her. She does finally spot the detective and aim at her, but Elisa takes her down before she can do more than that. Apparently her feud with Macbeth tops even her hatred for Elisa.

I felt a sense of near-horror, though, as I noticed how Demona and Macbeth's fight was damaging the library, with several books apparently getting damaged or destroyed.

And the silhouette of a gargoyle against the moon in the newspaper photograph bears an uncanny similarity (obviously coincidental) to the Bat-Signal.

Greg responds...

Those typos drive me nuts.

Response recorded on August 16, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

I rewatched "Golem" on DVD.

Not many new observations or insights, but I was impressed by the late Robert Culp's performance, the way he switches the tone of Renard's voice when he's in the Golem's body. It still sounds like Renard, but tougher, more vigorous.

I don't know if I've mentioned this before, but I found the scene where Janus was petting Bronx on the head charming. (And all the more impressive, given that he's just encountered his first gargoyle beast only minutes before. He clearly picked up on Bronx's nature quickly.)

Greg responds...

Bronx is very lovable.

Response recorded on August 16, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

Rewatched "Monsters" on DVD today. (Appropriate timing, I thought, since November 30 is St. Andrew's Day, dedicated to the patron saint of Scotland - and on that day, I was watching Scottish gargoyles encountering Scotland's most famous monster.) A few fresh thoughts on it.

When Elisa describes herself to the man at the souvenir stall as "not really the adventuring type", I found myself thinking of her statement in "High Noon", "I'm no hero; I just do my job". Certainly, whatever her incliations, she's had plenty of adventures.

I wondered whether Elisa's remark about theme parks doing "robot Nessie-type" stunts five times a day was Disney poking a bit of fun at itself - we'd see something similar in "Bushido".

And when Elisa says at the end how some legends need to stay that way, she looks in Goliath's direction as she speaks, making me wonder if it was just the Loch Ness Monster she was talking about. Certainly Elisa's been zealous about preserving the gargoyles' secrecy - maybe too zealous, in light of "Revelations" and "Mark of the Panther".

Greg responds...

She wasn't just talking about Nessie.

Response recorded on August 16, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

I've now rewatched "Heritage" and "Kingdom" on DVD. No new thoughts on "Heritage", but I still really enjoy the gargoyles bringing Cagney to the clock tower to look after him in Elisa's absence. I thought it appropriate that it was Broadway who found the kitty (he's the one of the four left behind gargs who's closest to Elisa). And I liked Hudson's rapport with Cagney, while missing Bronx. Including Cagney rubbing affectionately against Hudson - he's got no problems with gargoyles (though Maggie's another story).

I found myself wondering how that containment unit was still functioning after Fang ripped the cables apart to transport it. (To make up for it, I noticed this time around - and really liked - the way they did Talon's voice while he was stuck in there.)

As you pointed out in your ramble, Xanatos's security system does far more damage to the castle than to the gargoyles - I cringe as I see it blowing pieces of the castle apart (small wonder that, by the time of the Double Date story, Owen was getting fed up with all those repairs!) - but Xanatos's lines made up for it.

Greg responds...

Xanatos is just so much fun...

Response recorded on August 16, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

A postscript thought I had on "Shadows of the Past". Both it and "Future Tense" - the first and last episodes in the Avalon World Tour respectively - have Goliath being beset by terrifying magical illusions, but at last realizing that they're not real and confronting the person or people behind the illusion. I don't know if this was intentional or not, but I think it gives a great element of symmetry to the World Tour.

Greg responds...

It was indeed intentional.

Response recorded on August 16, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

Rewatched "Shadows of the Past" today.

Bronx was definitely not enjoying the wild boat ride through the stormy seas - his response put me in mind of the "series Pitch"'s description of him as angst-ridden and not fond of adventures.

I really enjoyed the little animation details in this episode - Elisa cautiously climbing up the path from the shore, grabbing hold of the stone wall at one point to steady herself, or Bronx slipping a bit when he starts climbing up the cliff.

The entrance to the rookery looked different than it did in "Awakening Part One" - apparently those doors and the gargoyle-like face over them were removed by Xanatos to New York, along with the rest of the castle. The depiction of the now castle-less cliff - with a huge gap - brought home just how much of it Mr. X had removed.

I really like the illusory Demona's words to Goliath "Join me in the dark" - it's an illusion of her, of course, but those words capture so well in metaphor what she's been trying to get him to do (when not simply trying to kill him).

This time around, looking at the giant skull-like shape left over from the Archmage's battle with the gargoyles in "Long Way Till Morning", I tried to work out (but wasn't certain) whether it was a real skull (if so, it belonged to something really huge) or just part of the cave sculpted into the likeness of a skull. I'll have to pay closer attention to it, the next time I watch "Long Way Till Morning".

Greg responds...

The animation on that episode was just lovely..

Response recorded on August 16, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

Rewatched the "Avalon" triptych on DVD today. A few new observations.

The Magus's lyre in the "flashback on Avalon" scene looks a lot like Merlin's lyre in "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time". Obviously not the same one, but evidently both wizards share a common taste in musical instruments.

Princess Katharine and the Magus's telling Elisa "Little is known of the Sleeping King" struck me as all the more appropriate since in 995, nearly all the major works on King Arthur had yet to be written (Geoffrey of Monmouth's "History of the Kings of Britain", the oldest extant start-to-finish account of Arthur's life, wouldn't be written for over a hundred years). There were one or two, like Nennius's "Historia Brittonum", but that was about it.

A detail that I hadn't spotted before: a couple of gargoyle-like sculptures were "guarding" the bridge leading to Arthur's resting-place within the Hollow Hill.

King Arthur and Goliath have both used a mace while fighting Macbeth (Goliath did so in "Enter Macbeth") - one of a few points in common they share (others are awakening in the modern world from a long enchanted sleep, and having scheming illegitimate sons).

The Archmage's boast that he could destroy Goliath with "just a word" struck me as apt, since all the "enhanced Archmage"'s spells were one-word ones ("Vessel", "Revert", "Ice", etc.).

It's difficult not to smile at Elisa's "Souvenirs" question after Season One of "Young Justice". Fortunately, she was asking it in a lighthearted tone.

Greg responds...

Certain elements run through my work, I suppose...

Response recorded on August 16, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

Rewatched "The Price" on DVD yesterday.

This time around, I noted the Macbeth-robot's "trophies" line, and how that continued the "hunting" imagery I'd been paying close attention to in the series during my 25th anniversary viewing. Because trophies are one of the reasons why someone would be hunting. (As far as I can tell, it's the only time that was given as a motive for hunting gargoyles - and, of course, it doesn't count, since it was all part of the misdirection tactic.)

Greg responds...

Yep.

Response recorded on August 16, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

Rewatched "The Cage" on DVD today (and "Protection" yesterday, but I had no new thoughts or observations on it).

I noted, this time around, Elisa's joke about webbed feet during the family dinner scene at the start, followed by Peter Maza's "and a great duck impersonation" line followed by a quacking sound, and wondered if that might have been intended as a tribute to the Disney Afternoon's "duck shows" - both "Duck Tales" and "Darkwing Duck".

Greg responds...

It's not NOT a tribute.

Response recorded on August 16, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

Rewatched "Upgrade" today.

Continuing the "animals/beasts/hunting" terms used for gargoyles - I noticed Dingo's remark to Wolf "I hope you're not planning to eat your catch" and Hyena's I wonder if gargoyles taste like chicken." This is the first time anyone was actually suggesting eating the gargoyles - they'd hunted them for other reasons - control, sport, revenge (I found myself suddenly comparing Gillecomgain's vengeful pursuit of Demona with Captain Ahab's pursuit of Moby-Dick - in both cases, to get back at the quarry for a lasting physical injury, whether facial scars or a missing leg), but this is the first time anyone seemed to consider eating the gargoyles. And, naturally, it'd be the Pack who'd be the ones to consider that.

Hyena also addresses Lexington as "flying rat".

When Broadway foils the most crimes, saying "You just gotta know where to look", I thought again of his detective interests in "The Silver Falcon" - and which resurfaces again in "Protection", the very next episode.

Greg responds...

Not just the Pack, but Hyena specifically. Not sure the rest of the Pack has her appetite.

Response recorded on August 16, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

I rewatched "Double Jeopardy" today - a few new thoughts.

Elisa's again driving along a lonely road by the coast, far from Manhattan, just as she'd done in the immediately preceding episode ("Revelations") - but this time, we know why she's out there (a warning about a power plant emergency - actually a hoax, courtesy of Thailog).

Broadway tells Elisa, as he and Lexington head off to Gen-U-Tech, "We're on the case". His way of phrasing it invokes again his interest in detective work (cf. "The Silver Falcon").

All the dates on Sevarius' video documentary about Thailog are written in the "British format" - i.e., "15 NOV", with the day first, then the month. Something you don't often see on American television.

Greg responds...

Dates are hard.

Response recorded on August 16, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

Rewatched "Revelations" on DVD.

The "creatures/beast" theme: Mace Malone describes Goliath as "a majestic beast". (The evidence, though, indicates that he recognizes Goliath as a sentient being rather than a mere "beast".)

This time around, when I saw Mace Malone's fate, I found myself thinking of the depiction of his ex-partner Dominic Dracon in the "Religion 101" radio play, searching everywhere for those diamonds in a way that indicated that he'd suffered a severe mental shock at the end of "The Silver Falcon". Though I recognize that the radio play isn't canon, I'd felt that it did seem like a probable consequence for DD, after discovering that those diamonds had never been in the Silver Falcon - and Mace Malone's own fate, frantically trying every door, convinced each time that this was the one which would get him out of the Hotel Cabal and to freedom, felt like a parallel to it.

Greg responds...

I like that observation.

Response recorded on August 16, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

My thoughts on rewatching "Outfoxed".

Not much new to say about it, but I spotted two things. First, just after Goliath heads off in pursuit of Fortress-Two, we get a shot of it flying towards the Twin Towers. From a hindsight perspective, an unsettling moment.

I noticed, also (continuing my examination of the "monster/beast/creature" terminology used by humans towards gargoyles during this rewatch) that both Renard and Vogel call Goliath "creature". Renard, of course, soon recognizes that Goliath's a sentient being, capable of understanding him when he speaks about the importance of taking responsibility for your actions. I'm not so sure whether Vogel came to the same realization, though.

Greg responds...

Ultimately, I think he did.

Response recorded on August 16, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

I rewatched "High Noon" over the weekend. ("Outfoxed", as well, but I'm giving it a separate entry.)

What struck me most about this episode this time around was that it was almost a "Shakespeare villain team-up" - Macbeth (and Demona, whom you could describe as a "Lady Macbeth" analogue) team up with Iago (more accurately, a gargoyle analogue for Iago, who's only called that in the voice actor credits). I doubt that Shakespeare should have objected to that, since he'd written at least one crossover himself ("A Midsummer Night's Dream", which blends Greek mythology with English fairy-lore).

I still like the touch of Hudson and Broadway learning to read from the newspaper - poor Broadway's still finding the word "right" a challenge (cf. "The Silver Falcon"). Again, I'm going to have to look through some books on the history of the English language to find out how so many words which sound like "-ite" came to end, in written form, with "-ight". It's probably one of the biggest challenges to someone learning written English.

Broadway's excited cry, as he and Hudson enter Macbeth's library, "Look at all these books!" struck me all the more, when I thought that, to someone who'd been born (well, hatched) and grown up in the 10th century, a library that size would indeed seem miraculous. What a difference the printing press has made!

"Iago"'s cry as "Othello" and "Desdemona" recover control of Coldstone, "I am besieged!", grabbed me this time around - such a dramatic way of describing the struggle within.

And this time, I also noted Coldstone's statement that, as long as "Iago"'s trying to recover control, "no *living* gargoyle" (emphasis mine) is safe from him. It brings home, I think, his awareness that he's now an "undead gargoyle".

Greg responds...

Glad you liked it, still, after all these years.

Response recorded on August 16, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

Rewatched "City of Stone" today (all four episodes). A few things that stood out to me this time.

Continuing the "gargoyles being called beasts" thread: the granary guards in Part One call Demona's clan "filthy beasts". Gillecomgain doesn't use the term "beast" for Demona, but does call her a creature and a monster.

(By contrast, the "breastplate gargoyle" comments about their old home, after Demona and her clan have to abandon it following Duncan's attack, "The hunting there was good" - probably one of the few occasions where gargoyles are talking about being the hunters rather than the hunted.)

Demona's clan uses nets twice in this multi-parter - once against the granary guards in Part One, once against Canmore's army in Part Four. The nets being in Parts One and Four gave a nice sense of "bookends".

A detail that I can't believe I missed before: Demona was bearing the Hunter's mask at her belt, as if a trophy, after the battle with Duncan. (The young Canmore grabs it from her during his attack upon her.)

Demona calls Bronx "my pet"; I looked up your remarks on gargoyle beasts in the archives and found that gargoyles don't see gargoyle beasts as pets, but as equals. Maybe another sign that Demona thinks far more like a human than she'd admit (or than it would be safe to tell her)?

I like the touch of the various new kings (like Macbeth and Lulach) being hailed as "High King of Scotland" - the "high king" part conveys all the more a sense of Scotland as a collection of recently-united chiefdoms (which it would have been at the time in actual history).

Greg responds...

We tried to get a feeling for the actual history into the piece.

Response recorded on August 16, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

Rewatched "Vows" today. A few new things that came to me.

I was hesitant about mentioning this, in case it comes across as an idea, but - from the way Goliath addressed Demona as "my angel of the night" at Prince Malcolm's wedding, I wondered if this was the first time he'd called her that.

When Xanatos referred to his getting the old coin that was the foundation of his fortune as "ancient history", I thought, "well, medieval history, to be precise".

I wonder how Prince Malcolm and his court must have perceived the Norman Ambassador's departure - he rides off just before the wedding, not staying to see Princess Elena, whom he'd escorted to the castle, wedded (even though he'd presumably be the closest thing to a representative of her father there). At least it doesn't appear to have caused a diplomatic incident between Scotland and Normandy.

The Archmage addresses Demona as "you stupid beast", continuing the pattern of unfriendly humans using such terms for gargoyles, that I've been paying close attention to this time around.

Brooklyn is the one most vocal about going to Goliath's rescue at the end; I wonder if Demona's involvement and his feelings about her had a lot to do about that.

I still think it's a pity that the original ending got onto the DVD; I hope that the Disney + version uses the corrected ending. (That's the main thing I miss from my old "Gargoyles" tapes.)

Greg responds...

<sigh> That damn ending...

Response recorded on August 16, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

Rewatched my DVD of "Eye of the Beholder" today. I didn't find as much new to notice with this one, unfortunately, though I was delighted to note the moment where Xanatos placed his hand on Goliath's shoulder while pleading for his help at the castle - meaning that he had an opportunity (which he used, obviously) to plant that tracking device on him. I'm glad that the episode played fair with that.

Brooklyn's eyepatch as part of his pirate costume seems all the more appropriate after the ending of "Clan-Building".

Goliath echoes "Re-Awakening" when he speaks of Manhattan as "my castle, my city".

Greg responds...

Lots of echoes in this one - backwards and forwards...

Response recorded on August 16, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

New observations from rewatching "The Silver Falcon" today.

One line of Broadway's dates the episode: he mentions that Lexington and Brooklyn "have dibs on the VCR". I wonder how many of us remember VCRS, and how many of us have forgotten them thanks to DVDs and Blu-Rays.

Elisa's line about Broadway "living out a movie fantasy" brought "Deadly Force" to my mind this time (of course, it helps that Dracon's back in this episode). Fortunately, Broadway's wish to do that has less disastrous results this time.

I also spotted, this time around, the parallels between Matt's entering the remains of the Silver Falcon night club and Broadway and Elisa's later arrival - and how both Broadway and Elisa say "I've had better nights".

And this episode continues "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time" , showing us that Broadway's begun to learn how to read, and has progressed enough to be able to read Mace Malone's note (and correctly figure out its meaning). In "Lighthouse" he'd initially been drawn to reading because of its ability to take you to other places and times; now he finds that it can be used to convey useful information. (And the poor guy has the word "right" in that note, though he manages to figure it out. It got me wondering - and I'll have to look it up - how so many English words which rhyme with "ite" are written "-ight" - bright, fright, fight, flight, night, sight, knight, tight, etc.

Greg responds...

Even DVDs and Blu-Rays are losing ground to streaming...

I always thought that for a new reader - which I can't quite remember being - words with the -ight formation would be tough. So would "tough".

Response recorded on August 16, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

Rewatched "The Mirror" today. A few new thoughts and observations.

I saw Demona's snarl at the "Dracula's daughter" in a new light this time. Dracula was a human before he became a vampire - and, naturally, Demona's going to regard any suggestion that she's related to a human - even a human who's become another "mythical creature of the night" - as the ultimate insult.

Not on the scale of Coldstone or the "Hunter's Moon" scheme, but Puck engages in a bit of "blending science with magic" when he uses the satellite dish and the television antenna atop the Twin Towers to help him turn all the humans in Manhattan into gargoyles and back again.

Bronx gets turned into an Irish wolfhound (or close to that kind of dog) - appropriate, in light of "The Hound of Ulster".

Greg responds...

Ah, memories...

Response recorded on August 13, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

Rewatched "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time" - a few fresh thoughts.

I remember your mentioning that you'd intended to have Goliath list a few specific books about Merlin, with Mary Stewart's "The Crystal Cave" as one of them, but weren't able to clear the rights for that. It recently struck me as particularly unfortunate you couldn't mention "The Crystal Cave", since it was published in 1970 and "Lighthouse" first aired in 1995. Goliath could have given it a 25th anniversary tribute.

Continuing the "'beast and monster' terms used for gargoyles" thread that I've been paying particularly close attention to for "Gargoyles"' own silver anniversary viewing, I noted that Macbeth addressed Broadway as "beastie" (evocative of Robert Burns, though Broadway's definitely not "wee, sleekit, cow'rin', timorous" and there didn't seem to be any panic in his breastie) and Goliath as "monster".

I spotted a drawing of a Celtic cross at the top of one of Merlin's Scrolls, when it was unrolled and the writing was visible.

Greg responds...

Yeah, I wanted to acknowledge some of my influences, but Disney legal said no.

Response recorded on August 13, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

I rewatched "Legion" today.

When Goliath and Lexington were reunited with Coldstone near the start, I suddenly found myself thinking of your mention of a (rejected) outline for a live-action adaptation of "Gargoyles" you'd written which had Goliath, Lex, and "Othello" as the gargoyles who'd be awakened in the modern world.

This time around, also, the Xanatos Program felt like a foreshadowing of "Future Tense".

I also wondered (just a wondering, not a question) whether the ivied balcony in Coldstone's memories (where he's standing while Iago's "pouring poison in his ear" about Desdemona and Goliath) was supposed to be an actual feature of Castle Wyvern before the massacre, or just a symbolic construct.

Greg responds...

Yeah, one thing I'd have loved to do was to better integrate the Coldtrio into the early episodes.

I think maybe the castle might have had some kind of ivy. Maybe. Guess I'd have to research that.

Response recorded on August 13, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

I rewatched "Metamorphosis" today. A few things that struck me this time around.

When Derek and Elisa had their "Xanatos as the reincarnation of Snidely Whiplash" exchange, I thought "No, he's a lot more dangerous than that."

I noticed the pigeons clustered around Goliath just before he awakened; you'd think they'd be staying well away from the clock tower by now. (Though they do fly off in a hurry once the gargoyles wake up.)

I spotted a few animals in cages in Sevarius's lab that I don't think I'd noticed before, though I'm not certain what they were; they were too small to be jungle cats, and the wrong shape for bats.

Greg responds...

I'd have to look at the episode again to see if I could remember what they were.

Response recorded on August 13, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

Rewatched "Leader of the Pack" on DVD today. Elements that particularly stood out to me this time:

We see all the gargoyles awakening from their stone sleep, one by one. An appropriate way, I thought, to re-introduce them in the first episode of the second season.

Hudson displays his tracking skills in examining the traces of the fight between the Pack and Lexington, Brooklyn and Bronx at Pack-Media Studios. In fact, I've noticed him using that skill a lot - all the way back to "Awakening Part One", where he notes that the Vikings' horses' prints are too light.

Greg responds...

Yep, Hudson was our experienced tracker.

Response recorded on August 13, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

New thoughts on "Re-Awakening", after my rewatch.

I don't know whether this was intentional or not, but when Goliath and Elisa were having their conversation about the shopkeeper and why he doesn't leave the neighborhood, I found myself thinking of "Othello"'s suggestion, in the flashback, of abandoning the castle and letting the Vikings have it, and Hudson's response. I don't know if you intended those moments to be thematically connected, but they did feel that way to me this time.

It still strikes me that the fact that the gargoyles' resolution to protect the city and its inhabitants comes at the end of the first season says a lot about how different "Gargoyles" was from most super-hero series; the gargoyles are able to have plenty of adventures and experiences - thirteen episodes' worth of them - before making that vow. The series was rooted in their being gargoyles - ancient "mythical" beings with their own culture and world-view - re-awakened in the modern world, trying to make sense of it - and often making mistakes in the course of their attempts - rather than just crime-fighters.

Greg responds...

That was all intentional.

Response recorded on August 13, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

Rewatched both "Her Brother's Keeper" and "Re-Awakening" today, as part of my "Gargoyles" 25th anniversary review. New thoughts on "Her Brother's Keeper" (ones that came to mind when I rewatched it).

Broadway's concerned remarks about Elisa near the beginning (including "If cops were meant to fly, they'd have wings") indicates that Elisa had shared with them how she was following Xanatos by helicopter before embarking on it.

Derek's remark to Diane that working for Xanatos "could be the start of a whole new career for me" feels all the truer in hindsight - though he obviously wasn't thinking in terms of running an underground sanctuary for Mutates and homeless people when he said it.

I spotted the clock's hands moving at one point in the episode; apparently Lexington had indeed gotten it working again.

Greg responds...

But was it telling the correct time?

Response recorded on August 13, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

I rewatched "Lnng Way Till Morning" today.

I'm not sure if I noticed it (or commented on it) before, but I spotted two parallel elements in the flashbacks (beside the obvious "Goliath and Hudson pitted against someone who made a poison dart attack upon a human friend"). The scene where Demona wounds Goliath parallels the Archmage's attack on Prince Malcolm; on both occasions, Hudson tries to block the attack, but to no avail. And in both the past and present parts of the story, Demona comments on the gargoyles going underground where their wings will be no use (though in different moods).

Continuing the study of how often "beast" imagery gets applied to the gargoyles: the Archmage calls Goliath a "beast".

Greg responds...

October 31st and you're not watching "Eye of the Beholder"?

Response recorded on August 12, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

I rewatched "The Edge" today - appropriately, since today (October 30) is, according to some sources, Dostoyevsky's birthday, and Goliath was reading his work in the episode.

I spotted more "hunted like animals" remarks (I'm keeping close watch for those in the 25th anniversary review) from Xanatos during his conversation with Goliath at the castle. (I don't recall any of that imagery in "Deadly Force". I think that Macbeth addressed Goliath as "beastie" in "Enter Macbeth", but I'm not certain - if he did, I must have temporarily forgotten my resolve to keep track of that element.)

I also couldn't help thinking, this time around, how convenient for the series it was that Elisa only got a partner *after* the gargoyles moved out of the castle and into the clock tower.

Greg responds...

Yeah. It was too convenient, which is why we gave her Matt.

Response recorded on August 12, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

Rewatched "Enter Macbeth" today.

I can't help womdering what must be going through Hudson's head as he watches a Donald Duck cartoon, thoughtfully stroking his beard. The spectacle of a duck grown to human size, wearing clothes and speaking (kind of) could be an even bigger argument for not believing everything you see on television than the revelation of the Pack's true nature.

U remember in your ramble on "Enter Macbeth", your daughter spotted what looked like the Mona Lisa in Macbeth's mansion. This time around, I noticed a portrait of a man apparently in 18th century attire, who reminded me of portraits I'd seen of Bonnie Prince Charlie.

The doors to Macbeth get it both coming and going; they first get broken down when Bronx escapes, and when he returns with Goliath, they demolish a second pair of doors. (Of course, it becomes academic after the whole mansion gets burned down.)

Lexington talks about getting the clock working again; I wonder if he ever succeeded before the Canmores blew the place up.

Greg responds...

1. Donald is a mystery to us all... ;)

2. I think Macbeth owned a lot of expensive art.

3. Yeah, so much destruction.

4. He never did.

Response recorded on August 12, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

Features I'd just noticed about "Temptation", this time around.

1. When Broadway tells Goliath that Brooklyn had gone on a joyride, he makes motions with his hands suggesting someone gripping a motorcycle's handlebars.

2. Demona, when she talks about the events of "The Thrill of the Hunt", uses the phrase "hunted like animals" - which not only continues the "humans seeing the gargoyles as beasts" thread that I'd noticed all the more in "Awakening" and "The Thrill of the Hunt", but also put me in mind of the Hunters - no wonder she uses that description!

Greg responds...

1. Yep.

2. She's got a history...

Response recorded on August 12, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

I also rewatched "The Thrill of the Hunt" and "Temptation" today. Things I noted this time in "The Thrill of the Hunt".

1. Lexington, angered about the Pack's treachery, cries that they're like animals. I thought that appropriate, given the Pack's "animal names".

2. The Pack continue the "referring to the gargoyles as beasts" practice from "Awakening" and even speak of hunting them, such as Wolf's cry "Let the hunt begin!" - the talk about hunting them also made me think of the Hunters (though they wouldn't be introduced until Season Two, of course).

3. When Brooklyn and Broadway arrive at the end to tell Goliath and Lexington how they'd seen a report on the news about Fox and Wolf's arrest, they come gliding in from outside the castle - so apparently they weren't watching television with Hudson when they found out, but somewhere else. (I won't ask where, but this detail struck me for the first time.)

4. Dingo's cry of "Stone me!" upon seeing the photographs of Goliath felt like a particularly appropriate response to a gargoyle.

Greg responds...

1. Yep.

2. Common themes running through the series, I think.

3. Or they were watching t.v. earlier.

4. :)

Response recorded on August 12, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

To celebrate the 25th anniversary of "Gargoyles", I watched "Awakening" (all five episodes) on DVD yesterday, and thought I'd share a few things I hadn't noticed before (or hadn't noticed enough) that struck my fancy.

1. When Goliath sends the trio and Bronx to the rookery, Bronx looks ashamed of himself - in a way that reminds me of times when dogs I'd known looked guilty over something.

2. When Xanatos tells Owen "Make the offer now" at the ruins of Castle Wyvern, I suddenly wondered whom he bought Castle Wyvern from. I won't ask here - it's obviously a "No spoilers" answer - but I was struck by the fact that this was the first time I wondered that.

3. I spotted what looked like a "foliate head" (or "Green Man"-type head) carved over the archway the gargoyles are standing beneath when the Commandos showed up in the courtyard, and a couple of winged figures on one of the tapestries. (I'll have to check for other unusual and remarkable features of the castle in later episodes, as well.)

4. Many of the human characters repeatedly call the gargoyles "beasts", both in the medieval scenes and the modern (Princess Katharine's protest at allowing beasts in the dining hall, Mary calling the gargoyles beasts, Bruno asking "Where's the beast?" while pursuing Goliath and Elisa).

5. Goliath asks Elisa, when they first meet, "What were you doing in my castle?" Despite Xanatos having bought it, he clearly thinks of it as still his - as if laying pipe for the arc about the gargoyles having to leave the castle and Goliath resisting it.

Greg responds...

1. The dogs I've had get that shamed look based on my reprimanding tone more than based on what they've done. As opposed to the cats I've had (and have), who at best stare at me as if to ask, "Are you talking to me?"

2. An interesting question.

3. Art Direction was pretty awesome on the show.

4. All very intentional.

5. We tried to keep each character's POV clear.

Response recorded on August 12, 2021

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Todd Jensen writes...

Something I recently saw at the Phoenix Public Library reminded me of the fears you'd mentioned that "Gargoyles" would be perceived as a "Batman: TAS" imitation. I spotted a few copies (four in all - someone on the library staff must have had fond memories of the series) of the "Gargoyles Season Two Volume Two" DVD there, and noted that the blurb on the back called the gargoyles "Gotham's guardians". Well, Gotham *is* an old nickname for New York (going back to Washington Irving), and there's the alliterative appeal, but it still makes it look as if somebody confused the gargs with a different nocturnal crime-fighter.

Greg responds...

Eh. Maybe. Or maybe, as you said, people were looking for something alliterative.

Response recorded on August 12, 2021


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