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The Phoenix Gate

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Jim R. writes...

Just watched "Vows" and I have some questions:
1. Demona breaks the Phoenix Gate in half to share it with Goliath. How is this possible? I would of thought the Gate, being forged on Avalon, would be indestructable since it is of pure magic. But how can a mortal such as Demona simply break it as if it were a cracker?
2. Stupid questions: Can the gate still work being broken in half? How much more can it be broken?
3. Does Goliath explain the whole situation to Hudson about how they turn to stone for a 1000 years, when Hudson first sees him after he has arrived from the future? I wouldn't think so, but I was thinking that Hudson might be a bit curious about Goliath's time-travel story. And Hudson, being a wise garg, would think twice as to whom this future Goliath could possibly be.
4. Why was castle Wyvern still burning when future Demona brought her past self to see what would become of their kind? Goliath and the rest of the gargs were already turned to stone to sleep for a 1000 years, and I would have thought that the castle fires would be out by then.

Greg responds...

1. I'm sorry, why should it be indestructable? I don't follow your logic there at all. After all, Oberon's not indestructable. Keep in mind, breaking it in half didn't destroy it anyway. It simply neutralized it until the pieces were joined again. At which point they soon sealed up as if they had never been broken.

2. No. Don't know.

3. Goliath consciously chose to reveal as little as possible. You saw most of their conversation on screen.

4. On one level, you can call it artistic license. Or you could say that there were still a few fires burning that no one bothered to put out.

Response recorded on June 10, 2001

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Justin writes...

Ok forgive me if this is confusing but this is the only way I could figure out how to word this question. You have mentioned that a Time Dancing Brooklyn would be a character in 2198. Now, since Brooklyn come home eventually, wouldn't a ver old Brooklyn also be present? or at least Nashville and Tachi? What I am asking is during his Time Dancing wouldn't Brooklyn encounter older versions of himself, Katana, Nashville and Tachi? Seeing as how they do come home, thus are a part of the timestream from 1996 on?

Thanks again!

Greg responds...

They did come home, but do the math as to whether it's feasible that they'd still be alive in 2198.

Response recorded on June 09, 2001

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Anonymous writes...

I know that you hate most of the time traveling in Star Trek so what did you think of that episode where Kirk goes back to WW2?

Greg responds...

Hate is a strong and not necessarily accurate word.

As for the episode you're talking about, I'm not entirely sure which one you mean. There's an episode where Kirk goes to a world where Nazi Germany has been recreated. But it's not a time travel story.

And then there's the famous time travel episode with Joan Collins set during the depression.

I assume you mean the latter.

I basically think that's a great show. At least the time travel is presented fairly consistently within the episode. It's not the way I would do it. But it's consistent to its own rules. And time travel aside, it's a great dramatic premise. Well-performed by all involved. Great stuff.

Response recorded on May 04, 2001

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Axem Gold writes...

I know where the Phoenix Gate really came from. It came from the writer's of the Gargoyle Animated Series.

Greg responds...

Okay.

Response recorded on April 09, 2001

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Anonymous writes...

Were you inspired in someway by Quantum Leap while making Timedancer?

Greg responds...

Not really. Plenty of time travel stuff pre-dates QL.

And I'm much stricter about time-travel rules than that show.

Response recorded on February 26, 2001

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Bruno writes...

Hi Greg,

There is some kind of 'End of Time' place in the Gargoyles Universe? A place that is out of the timestream.

Greg responds...

Sort of. Not really. But sort of.

Response recorded on February 15, 2001

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Bruno writes...

Hi Greg,

Thoughts about time travel:

There is a little controversy about time travel vs. free will. If the past is unchangeable -and also the future, for consequence- then there is _no_ free will?

On the contrary; The events in the past can't be changed, but they WERE and ARE done by us. That's easy to guilt the others or the timestream, but, quoting Rorschach, from Watchmen:

"That's not God who kill the children, nor the chance who shred they, nor the destine who feed the dogs with they. They're us. Only us". (I'm translating to english from a translation to the portuguese. :-)

Plus, on the contrary of the common sense, change the past is not use free will, but kill it: Demona betrayed Wyvern. If she came back and change this, she should be obstructing her OWN free will. And her responsability, to boot. And responsability is one of the series' themes.

This is a paradox, but, with time travel, what else did you want? The unchangeable past universe IS the free will universe. :-)

Oh, well, now back to my time travel questions:

1- Roughly, when was the Phoenix Gate "created"? Meaning when it droped in Avalon, starting the time loop.

2- If the Phoenix Gate is a "steam valve" and it exists among two time points (??? or before and 2198 or after), what was the steam valve before the Gate? And after?

Ps. I just wanted to say that I fully understood the time loops in Vows, Avalon II and M.I.A. and I loved then. Vows and Avalon were amazing and smart, and M.I.A. was just too fun: Goliath couldn't change the history, but he was so smart that he could trick it! Great work.

Greg responds...

Before we get to your questions, Bruno, let me just say that I agree with you on your time travel/free will thing.

1. I don't want to reveal that yet. It's intrinsic to the whole TimeDancer story.

2. Stories for another day.

Thanks.

Response recorded on February 15, 2001

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Jim R. writes...

Greg,
I'm no physicist but your theories of time-travel are different than others that i've heard. I bet you've seen the "Back to the Future" trilogy, so why is it, that things Marty and the Doc did back in the past change the outcome of the future for them, because it was obvious that the past couldn't be altered until the Doc invented the time machine in the present so they could go back to the past. So the future they were familiar with when they were in the past was different when they finally came back into the future (present). (Say that ten times over...)

So, my point is, in Gargoyles, Goliath says "Time is like a river, unchanging in its course." Basically that says anything they did in the past using the Phoenix Gate did not effect the future at all? Which is confusing, because if I were to go back and save JFK, that would certainly alter the future for me and anyone else that came back with me...

On Star Trek they believe in infinite possibilies for every outcome and decision.
I know, I know...Just answer my question about the Gargoyles part. We would need Einstein to explain this quantum stuff. Hey, maybe I'll jump in my time machine and go get him. :)

Greg responds...

<Sigh> I thought the first Back to the Future movie was very entertaining. I thought the second was masturbatory (excuse my language) and I thought the third was mildly amusing.

But I thought the time travel logic was fairly loose (at best). Look, I'm no physicist either. This is all make-believe. But I wanted STRICT, STRICT rules in the garg universe to eliminate the kinds of abuses that Star Trek writers (for example) are prone to doing. Cheats that start as time-travel cheats, but wind up being story cheats, character cheats, etc.

And in the garg universe, if you went back in time to save JFK, you'd fail. Or you'd succeed. But he'd decide to go into deep hiding or travel to Avalon or to the year 2002 or something, so that history as we know it would still be exactly the same.

Response recorded on February 01, 2001

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matt writes...

Jim R., i think that Greg explained time travel pretty well and it makes sense to me. if you were to go back in time to save JFK one way or another you failed cuz JFK was assasinated! its like Xanatos said, "You won't, because you didn't. Time travels funny, that way." you wouldn,t succeed it saving JFK because you obviously didn't save him, he was killed despite what you would do. another example is "M.I.A." Goliath knew from meeting Leo and Una that Griff didn't come home that night so when he went back in time even if he did everything to keep Griff in his time something else would have happened. Griff would have been killed etc. time is like a river and any attempt to change it will end in failure because if history had been changed you would never had wanted to try and change it in the first place! does all this make sense?

Greg responds...

Yeah!

Response recorded on February 01, 2001

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DrFaust writes...

Re: Working time paradoxes.

I must confess, I've always liked "changing the past" time travel stories. I was indoctrinated by "Back to the Future" at a young age. <shrug>

Unfortunately, I have yet to find a book with Heinlein's "All You Zombies." All the libraries around seem to focus on his monumental novels that hammer home the same points over and over. (Annoying nit I feel obligated to mention: all his characters have the same vocabulary and speech mannerisms. Drives me nuts.)

So, er, about the paradox thingy. Wish I had more to comment on it. There is a certain sense of balance and rightness to a self-fulfilling paradox. Makes for a neater and cleaner story. The first time I came across it was a short story by someone I can't remember called "Up By His Bootstraps" (or something similar). The idea blew me away.

It's almost a kind of aethestic, I think. While there is the appeal of a neat paradox, some people like the messy timeloops. Take Lawrence Miles' Faction Paradox ("Alien Bodies" and "Interference"). One of their forms of punishment is for a member to kill his or her's younger self.

Of course, Simon Bucher-Jones suggested in "Ghost Devices" that a self-cancelling paradox would loop over and over, variating slightly each time until some sequence of events occurred that allowed the universe to go on. Sort of like that mythical first time around that Vashkoda suggested.

Aesthetically pleasing as it may be, I always thought this kind of history was somewhat depressing. How do you *know* it was free will? If there never was a first time, and you've always been doing a particular action, then there's nothing to you say you could change. Which you can't.

Anyhoo, just a thought or two buried in all that.

"...full of sound and fury, signifying nothing..."

Greg responds...

Again, if you're going to look at things that way, one might argue how do you know if you have free will here in the real world.

The answer is, I suppose, that you can't be 100% sure that you do.

But I'm fairly confident that within the realm of things that my will can effect, I have free will.

Nothing's any different in the time-travel stories I've presented. You're simply looking at them from a unique angle.

Response recorded on December 21, 2000


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