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Rewatched "The Gathering" (both episodes) on DVD today. A few new things I noticed about it.
A minor detail, but which I find touching: when Renard learns about Anastasia's remarriage,, he sadly clasps her hand.
The letter X is prominent among the Xanatoses: Xanatos, FoX, and AleXander. And then I thought of LeXington, who isn't one of the family, but who's close to Alex, and who became Xanatos's secret successor in "Future Tense". (And there's that bit, also, in your "Gargoyles 2198" piece, about the Lexington-Xanatos Corporation.)
Goliath's homecoming makes a lovely contrast with "Future Tense", as he warmly embraces the overjoyed Brooklyn and Lexington (the two members of the clan who'd been bitter towards his late return in "Future Tense") and Hudson says "I knew you hadn't abandoned us." (While Broadway hugs Elisa, tying in with his being the closest to her among the trio, ever since "Deadly Force".)
One feature of Goliath's pondering the possibility that Avalon sent him to Manhattan to stop Oberon from taking Alex away; if his speculation was correct, that means that Avalon was, in a way, going against its lord and master. Though that made sense when I thought about it; without going too deeply into hypotheticals, I suspect that things would have not gone well for Avalon if Oberon *had* spirited Alex away (no way would his parents have accepted that), and Avalon would be sparing itself and its lord and master a lot of potential trouble in thwarting him.
You mentioned once that you wanted to have Puck break the fourth wall, but the rest of the production team objected to it. I noticed that he does come close, though, when he turns towards the camera while saying "I'm on a roll". (And when somebody *did* break the fourth wall, it was Brooklyn instead.)
At the very end, Broadway turns to stone shortly before the rest of the clan does.
Interesting observations. Thanks for all these, Todd.
Rewatched "Ill Met By Moonlight" today.
I spotted more hunting allusions in it (though this time, the gargoyles' "hunter" isn't a human); Titania's incantation to temporarily restrict Oberon's abilities includes the line "Till hunt be done", and Oberon says, after defeating Goliath, "And so ends the hunt". (He also evokes hunting imagery when he says "the rabbits would face the fox" - though I couldn't help thinking when he said it, "Technically, they're facing the fox's stepfather, though the audience isn't supposed to know that for another two episodes.")
1)Do Oberon and Titania also have other names or identities that may appear in mythologies? The Banshee had as a second identity Cromm Cruach.
2)Are Oberon and Titania's children mythologically known?
2.b)If so, in which mythology?
1. No spoilers
2. No spoilers.
2b. See above.
1. Given that the Third Race apparently knows about King Arthur's burial on Avalon (the Weird Sisters asked "Where's the sleeping king?" during their battle with the Magus in "Avalon, Part 3"), what is the significance of Oberon's referring to Titania as his "Once and Future Queen" in "Ill Met By Moonlight?"
2. On this question http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=1414 Todd Jensen mentioned a little bit about Merlin's life according to legend, including his encounter with King Vortigern. An eighteenth-century forger named William Henry Ireland wrote a play about Vortigern's life that he falsely attributed to William Shakespeare, on the grounds that Vortigern's story was so tragic, Shakespeare ought to have written about it. Given that King Arthur appears to have a prominent role in the Gargoyles Universe, and given also your love of Shakespeare, I'm especially curious to learn what role Vortigern has in the Gargoyles Universe.
By the way, I'm even more eager to learn what Shakespeare's story is in the Gargoyles Universe, than what Titania whispered to Fox.
1. You're assuming Oberon knows the title of the book "Once and Future King"?
2. No Spoilers.
Is Oberon capable of love? Does he love his wife and biological children? Did he marry Titania for shallow reasons (like her beauty, power, and status)? I get this feeling if his sons were to die, he would not care.
You'd be wrong.
He, of course, loves Titania and his children.
I'm not even sure what you're basing your assumptions on.
Hello, Greg, I am a fan of Gargoyles and your other work. I have questions about Oberon.
1.)Did Oberon have any affairs while he was married to Titania? You mentioned he has 4 kids. I'm not sure if two were born before his marriage or during it.
2.)Do you think Future Archmage and Jackal-Anubis(or Jackalbus) stand a chance against Oberon? Both of them seem pretty powerful.
3.)How come he isn't bothered that his wife has a daughter by a human? He doesn't seem upset about it.
1. No spoilers.
2. It's all situational.
3. You're imposing human morality on a non-human entity. He's even LESS human than he appears, btw.
Hi Greg. I am a big fan and I have a copyright question for you . The characters you use in Gargoyles are besides the main cast are mythological. So that would put them in the public domain, but your spin on them is that protected by copyright. Such as Oberon and Titania's connection to Avalon and their devours.
Thanks and Cant wait for Rebels and whatever else you do.
Oberon and Titania, to use your examples, are public domain. But our designs of them are not. And it one began to hew too closely to the backstories we created for them, Disney could, in theory, sue.
Since you are a big Shakespeare fan, I thought to ask if you've read A Midsummer Tempest by Poul Anderson? It's set in a world where all of Shakespeare's plays really happened?
No. And I won't, so as not to crowd my head with other folks' ideas. Sounds really cool, though. We were trying to accomplish the same thing (among other things) on Gargoyles.
I noticed in another series of children's books called The Sisters Grimm that the author, Michael Buckley, also had Puck as a main character, only he has the form of a 12 year old and seems to have the mindset of one. He also has a pair of pink insect wings (despite still being a shape-shifter) that he isn't ashamed of at all.
He's written in a way that makes me believe he could have been your version of Puck at a younger age, though he is considered in that series to be the literal child of Oberon and Titania (Oberon's children, haha).
What's more is that King Oberon and Queen Titania live in Manhatten, New York City. I can't help but wonder if there's some of the Gargoyle show's influence at work here.
1. Were you aware of this series and its similarities?
2. Did you ever exchange words with Michael Buckley?
3. Do you think it's possible he watched your show, Gargoyles, or more likely that it was a coincidence?
3. I have no idea.
Your rendition of Puck really rekindled an interest of fairy lore in me, especially since I love tricksters and their amoral personalities that make them so complex. I love how you never know if they'll do something 'good' or 'bad' to someone else simply on a whim, and you portrayed that so well.
I read a previous answer of yours to someone else that said you didn't want to label Puck, Oberon, and Titania as 'faeries' because of the pejorative connotations that the word has. I realize and empathize with you about how fairies are often thought of as nothing more than pretty little girls with butterfly wings or something to that effect, who wave magic wands to grant wishes and always do good. Makes me sick.
1. Is that why you didn't have Puck, Oberon and Titania portrayed with fairy wings despite their status in their original play?
2. If so, why bother to have Puck fly around at all, let alone with fairy dust trailing behind him?
There's a show I recently learned of called Durarara!! in which a Dullahan (technically a sort of fairy) comes to Tokyo to find her missing head, taking the form of a black-wearing motorcyclist and transferring her headless horse's spirit into a pitch black motobike. To hide the fact she has no head, she wears a full helmet and tries to blend in with the city, acting as a transporter and courier for gangs and info brokers, forcing fans to reconsider their initial mental image of a typical fairy.
I think if you had recognized that Puck and the others were Fae, it just might have saved the Fae's tainted, modern day reputation, considering how well-known and admired the Gargoyles show is. However, I understand respect the choices you made, and it was pretty much obvious who they were in the long run.
1. "Despite"? Most of the versions I've seen are wingless.
2. Uh... it looked cool?
I don't recall saying no to the words "faery", "fairy" or "fae" because of perjorative connotations. I think the point I was making is that Oberon and Titania were "larger" than that. The Children of Oberon include those creatures traditionally associated with the "fae" but also various pantheons, etc.
Hi first time questioner, long time fan so here we gp
1)Does Titania still have feelings for Renard?
2)When Oberon sent all of the third race into the human world to learn humailty, what he was he doing for that time. Was he in the human world aswell?
3)Oberon said that they golaith could have killed him with the iron bell. If he had died what would have become of his children?(so to speak)
1. Feelings, yes. Romantic feelings - not much.
3. They'd probably become Titania's Children for the short term. Beyond that, I'm not to big on hypotheticals.
The question in the last queue about whether Fox and David can vote after getting out of prison, and my own thoughts about the Third Race and Oberon's Law against interfering with mortals, has led me to this question: What does the Law of Oberon prevent and what does it allow, in terms of Oberon's Children participating in human politics? Do Anastasia Renard and Owen Burnett have U.S. citizenship, or if not could they get it if they wanted it? Can they vote? Can they get any more politically active than voting? (Leaving aside whether they actually want to do any of these things.)
My I-won't-be-held-to-this answer for the moment is that as long as they are living AS humans, they can PARTICIPATE in human affairs. They can eat lunch with other humans. They can see movies made by humans. They can conduct business with humans, and so, it follows, they can vote as humans vote... as long as they're not using magic to alter things.
I have another question regarding Oberon and Titania. Before the beginning of the Gathering and Titania offered to be his wife again was Oberon considering asking her to marry him?
One assumes they had had some conversations about this before, with him asking her, and she demuring...
One thing I am curious about is your view of the events in Shakespear'es Midsummer Nights Dream. After seeing the play, I had always been more sympathetic to Titania than Oberon, yet from your responses, in the Gargoyle Universe,you seem to set the actual event as more sympathetic to Oberon. What caused your decision to take that route?
I'm not sure I'm more sympathetic to Oberon AT ALL. I think he has some positive qualities in the play and some extremely NEGATIVE qualities, and my theory that he's the (illegitimate) father of the changeling boy born of a young virgin he therefore must have seduced before she died in childbirth, doesn't per se make him sympathetic, though I do think it makes his actions more understandable. Admittedly, if your interpretation was that he wants the boy for sexual purposes, he's a monster, and I sound like a sympathetic revisionist/apologist/jerk by comparison. But if you don't attribute that horrific interpretation to the play, then all I've done is motivate his actions with something specific.
Did the events of a Midsummer Night's Dream happen in the Gargoyles Universe? And if so did they happen as Shakespeare wrote them or differently?
Events occurred, but I'm not going to go into it at this time.
Now i noticed and a may be wrong but Titania seemed less effected by iron as did puck then Oberon himself. I was wondering if maybe this was because they are less Allergic to it being his children, and is Titania just less effected in general?
They're not LITERALLY his children. And I'm not sure why you say they were less effected?
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
The Weird Sisters track down Oberon in his mortal identity. They inform him that mortals have infested Avalon. Oberon decides that the time of the Gathering is indeed at hand and sets out to find his former queen, Titania.
Wow, I had no idea Bad Guys was already out. It's been a busy month. But I got a lot of thinking time since I've been on medical leave and I came up with these little gems.
1. OK, in the case of Owen/Puck you've said that Owen is fully human and can't do magic unless he's Puck (as far as I know anyway) and that rule applies to all Faeries. However, Fox is the offspring of Titania as a human and Reynard but she and her son are able to cast spells. I've read a few things about the differences between human and faerie magic but the only times we've seen magic in humans is through an object of some sort i.e. the Grimoire, the Eye of Odin, the Pheonix Gate ect. So what kind of magic do Fox and Alex (and presumely Merlin) use? If human why don't they need an object; if Fairy how?
2. I'm a HUGE fan of Midsummer's Night Dream but there is one thing that has irritaed me even when I was 10 years old. You switched the roles of Titania and Oberon. In the play Oberon was the consort though he was King of the Elves, Titania was the Queen of Fairies. What made you switch their roles?
3. I know you'll hate this question but is Mab plotting the destruction of Titania and Oberon or is she just gonna destroy us all outright?
Thanks for the answers!
1. Mortal sorcery doesn't enter into it. Owen is a mortal construct, able to do no magic except transform into Puck. Fox is half-human/half Child of Oberon. Alex is 3/4 human, 1/4 Child. Merlin is half and half. What isn't clear about this?
2. I've read and seen Midsummer easily 100 times. In what way did I switch their roles? Are you sure you're not allowing your interpretation of the play to influence your interpretation of what we did on the show?
3. I don't hate the question, but I have no intention of answering it at this time.
I scoured the appropriate archives and couldn't find the answer, so here goes nothing: feel free to snark me if you already answered it, and I'll go a-hunting some more.
So Oberon's Law works both as an actual restriction on ability (as in it can't be broken) but also as a rule (as in it can be bent), but I'm curious as to how halflings like Alex and Fox might be affected by Oberon's Laws. How tightly are halflings expected to adhere to Oberon's edicts and does it change depending on whether Oberon knows they exist?
Oberon seems to make some distinction depending on situation, as in the line: "As I see it, Fox has turned out to be regrettably human, and so we cannot interfere in her life. But the boy is of our blood..." He stands as the interpreter of his own laws, but now that Fox has proven that she is less "regrettably human" than he originally thought, does this change what laws Fox might have to obey? The non-interference rule is tricky for full blood children, and I can only imagine the loopholes are even easier to find when you're half mortal, but would there still be some applicable scenarios for Fox and Alex where this rule that can't be broken might apply? Like perhaps with the Phoenix gate-- would Alex be able to take the gate, or would someone have to give it to him? I'm especially curious about Alex, seeing as Oberon considers him "of our blood" and that Alex will be trained to use his powers.
I am likewise curious about Merlin. In order to guide the boy Arthur to become King Arthur, did Merlin have to "bend" the rules at all? Or did the No Interference rule not apply to him? What about the halfling New Olympians?
I wonder perhaps if there is some natural loophole in not knowing the law exists or not knowing the law applies to you. Or in Oberon not knowing you exist or that the law applies to you. With neither Fox nor Oberon knowing Fox was a halfling, that in itself might have been enough of a loophole for her. Now that they both know, I suppose it's all up for interpretation: whether or not Fox thinks the rule applies to her and (probably more importantly) whether or not Oberon think the rule applies to her. Ditto for Alex, and I can see how the "rules" that might not apply to Fox might still apply to him.
I imagine this is a matter of degrees and semantics. But maybe not, so I thought I'd ask.
The rule is magically enforced. Oberon doesn't need to know about you to enforce it. You don't need to know about Oberon to have it enforced. But -- as we've seen -- loopholes abound. The trickier you are the easier it is to find loopholes. Bloodline -- or blood purity, so to speak -- has nothing to do with it.
I have a few questions about the Puck/Owen duality or rather who knows about it.
1. Outside of Goliath's clan living in Manhattan, David Xanatos, Fox, and Alex, how many others know about that duality?
2. Does Thailog know about that duality?
1. Well, Oberon and Titania know. That's all we know for sure.
2. Why would he?
Yay! Question time! I was sad we couldn't post for so long, however working on a comic and having an upcoming television show demands alot of time I'm sure. Having fun?
Anyway, what are your plans for future Gargoyles stories? No! Just kidding!!!
Fox was understandbly bitter towards her mother at the end of The Gathering. Is there a planned reconciliation in the near future, or at least a confrontation? Or is that far off still?
Furthermore, what are Zanatos' feeling about her. I'm sure he harbors some resentment, but as someone who made a living out of schemes and plots, does he have a bit more... understanding (even if not appreciation)?
I am having fun, thanks for asking. I'm really tired though.
I'll leave everyone's feelings up to your interpretation for now. Eventually, we'll get to everything, but I'm trying to avoid scooping myself too much.
Yay the queue is open! I'm happy you're taking questions again. (and I'm of course excited to get #6, which I'll be ordering asap). I hope you don't mind questions unrelated to reviewing the comic... those Children of Oberon always make me so curious.
1. a. So Ragnarok already occured in the Gargoyles Universe. When did it happen? (If you don't want to give a year or decade, can you please say what century it happened in?)
b. Did any of the gods survive Ragnarok, other than Odin? If some did, who?
2. You've also told us that the war between the Titans and Olympians was a real event in the Gargoyles Universe. What happened to the defeated Titans afterwards? (I don't want to assume it is the same as the myths, or to ask more specifically for fear it would be an idea)
3. When was Oberon born? (If you don't want to give the year or decade, please say what century?)
1a. Yes, it occured, but no I'm not going to hint at a date (even a century) at this time.
1b. Yes, a few others did. But I'm not revealing who at this time. (Though the myths themselves are a good hint.)
2. I'm not answering this at this time.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
The gargoyles and Elisa return to the Clock Tower, while back at the Eyrie Building, Xanatos and Sevarius, who had only faked his death, discuss the success of their plan. Later that day, the Metropolitan Museum of Art announces a forthcoming new medieval exhibit: "Titania's Treasures". Demona immediately begins planning to steal Titania's Mirror.
Is it just me or are there eire simularities between charecters of Gargoyles and charecters of different shows?
Oberon/Inu no Taisho(Inu Yasha's father)
Owen/Cedric(W.I.T.C.H)(Owen just has shorter hair though)
And Puck/Yue(Card Captor Sakura)
It's really quite freaky.
If you say so.
I'm unfamilar with Inu Yasha's father and Card Captor Sakura. And although I worked on both Owen and Cedric, I helped create the former and didn't have anything to do with the creation of the latter. I suppose I can see some passing similarities, but they don't seem much alike to me.
a follow up on my other question, are there plans for puck in the comic? if so are there plans for oberon and titania as well (besides the queen mab thing).
I'm sure I've answered -- or NOT answered this -- already. Yes, there are plans for EVERYONE eventually.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Owen reveals himself as Puck but also fails to stop Oberon. It is Fox herself who saves the day by revealing a magical power even she did not know she possessed. Goliath convinces Oberon to allow Alexander to stay with his parents. Puck is chosen as Alex's tutor. But his powers are stripped from him save when he is training or protecting the boy, and he is eternally banished from Avalon. He reverts to Owen. Oberon arranges for Manhattan to awaken at dawn, and he and Titania return to Avalon. Xanatos vows to repay Goliath for helping to save Alexander. The gargoyles return to the Clock Tower. The sun rises. They turn to stone. And the city awakens. Elisa goes back to work. Chavez is less than thrilled about her six-month absence. Fortunately for Elisa, Chavez is in the middle of a turf war between the Brod and Dracon organized crime factions. Chavez needs a new face to infiltrate Brod's men. Because Elisa has been "out of town," she's the perfect choice to go undercover. Elisa will pose as "Salli", bringing Brod information about a Dracon chop shop operation being run by Dracon's lieutenant, Glasses.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
The Gathering is nearly complete, bringing Odin, Raven, Anubis, the Lady of the Lake, Anansi, Grandmother, Coyote and Nought (among others) back to Avalon. The Weird Sisters drag the Banshee before Oberon, who punishes her for her pride by silencing her voice. Only Titania and Puck remain absent. Oberon decides to seek out Puck himself, and takes Boudicca along to help with the hunt. In Manhattan, Fox gives birth to Alexander Fox Xanatos. The baby is introduced to his grandparents, Petros Xanatos, Halcyon Renard and Anastasia Renard (and also to Halcyon's assistant Preston Vogel). Owen reacts strangely to the news that Anastasia has remarried her first husband. Not long after, Oberon arrives, searching for Puck. But instead he finds Anastasia and reveals that she is in fact Queen Titania. Titania convinces Oberon that Alexander must be taken away to Avalon in order to nurture his magical potential. Xanatos protests - violently - but to no avail. Oberon gives Fox and David an hour to say goodbye to their son. Xanatos confers with Owen, who reveals security measures against Oberon that he has already put into place. Owen then abandons Xanatos without explanation. At the Clock Tower, Hudson, the Trio and Cagney learn about Alexander's birth, and then happily welcome home Bronx, Elisa and Goliath before being introduced to Angela. All three of the Trio are immediately smitten with her. Goliath brings Cagney and Elisa to their loft. When he returns to the Clock Tower, Anastasia is there. She reveals herself as Titania and asks him to help with the peaceful removal of Alexander. Goliath refuses to cooperate with the abduction of Xanatos' son. The hour having expired, Oberon returns to the Eyrie Building to claim Alexander. With amusement, he watches the evacuation of the building's employees. But he's furious when he realizes that Xanatos has activated Owen's force field to keep him out. He puts every mortal in Manhattan (including Elisa, Cagney, Morgan, Travis, Brendan and Margot) into a deep magical sleep. But the energy field protects the Xanatos family inside the Eyrie, and Goliath's clan is immune, thanks to Oberon's promise back on Avalon. Oberon then uses his magic to increase his size until he is literally as tall as the Eyrie itself. David and Petros Xanatos, the Gargoyles, Owen's Iron Clan Robots, Preston Vogel, Halcyon Renard and his cybots all attempt to prevent Oberon from getting to the child. They wound and weaken the giant, reducing him back to normal size, but are unable to stop him. And Renard's Fortress-2 crashes into Central Park.
[Woof! Big day, huh?]
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Oberon defeats Angela, Gabriel and Goliath and returns them to his Palace. But Tom and Katharine use the iron bell to bring Oberon to his knees. An agreement is reached that will allow Tom, Katharine and the Avalon Clan of Gargoyles to remain on the island as Oberon's Honor Guard. Oberon promises to never use his magicks directly against any member of Goliath's clan. Titania and Oberon renew their vows of marriage, and Oberon initiates the Gathering of the Third Race.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Goliath, Angela and Gabriel attempt to confront Oberon, but he is too powerful for them, and they are forced to flee. Meanwhile - working off clues provided by Titania - Tom, Elisa, Katharine and Ophelia begin forging an iron bell to use against Oberon.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
The travelers return to Avalon. Minutes later, Lord Oberon, Queen Titania and the Weird Sisters return to their mystic home. Oberon orders the humans and gargoyles off the island, but Titania convinces him to give the mortals a chance. She reduces his power, and he proceeds to hunt Goliath, Gabriel and Angela across the island.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Oberon and the Weird Sisters locate Anastasia Renard, the mortal identity of Titania, Queen of the Third Race. Oberon proposes that he and Titania renew their marriage vows on the eve of the Gathering. She promises to consider it.
Hi Greg. Loving the comics!
I\'d like to know if you\'re gonna take advantage of the revived Gargoyles Universe, in the comics, to tackle the long forgotten matter of Titania\'s whisper to Fox. We don\'t care if it\'s not be mind blowing... just stop torturing us!!! : )
Well, I've been told my quite a few people that they'd rather NOT know. And in any case, I said I would not reveal it until we had a minimum of 500 attendees at a Gathering.
It took me many viewings the "The Gathering" two-parter to appreciate what we are actually being given: finally, this titanic battle between the two men of the Gargoyles universe that are, for all intents and purposes, the masters of their respective domains. They're both accustomed to getting their own way, and what we get to see here is their mutually-reinforced frustration when they both are denied that by each other.
I NEED MORE POWER, SCOTTY
What makes these two such standouts? To a certain degree, I think that power makes us like children. There's a fantastic line from The Wonder Years, when Kevin says something like, "When you're a little kid you're a bit of everything: scientist, philosopher, artist. Sometimes it seems like growing up is giving these things up one at a time." Xanatos is the perfect example of a man who has never had to allow this to happen to himself, and that's why I think it's so much fun that he ended up as a hands-on villain instead of the Lex Luthor, man-behind-the-curtian baddie that you guys originally conceived. Say he always wanted to be an actor as a kid? He gets to ham it up now with Sevarius on a regular basis. He liked pretending to be a mad scientist? These days, he gets to say "It's alive!" and actually mean it. He is not (in his mind at least) bound by the physical laws that govern other men.
IT'S MY GATHERING AND I'LL DO WHAT I WANT
And Oberon, I think, is very similar. As a man who answers to no one, he can bend the rules whenever it suits him--and "interpret" his own laws depending on his mood, perhaps the ultimate in hypocrisy. (Remind anyone else of presidential signing statements?) When you make all the rules, the only person you can really rebel against is yourself. The best parallel I can think of to this kind of defiance, insubordination for its own sake, is in "The Journey"/"Clan-Building: Nightwatch," when Xanatos blows off Daddy Duval's call when an extremely conscious smirk. It is a very simple, childish act of rebellion.
So has Xanatos been humbled by the encounter, having been played to a stalemate by Oberon (or has he?). I suppose we will find out pretty soon whether Xanatos still holds the laws of nature in such contempt, now that he has met his match and in fact had to be bailed out by his mortal foe.
The matchup was so balanced and inevitable, I almost wish that "The Gathering" was longer than just two episodes, so that we had time to get the same kind of glimpse at Xanatos's psyche as we get at Demona's in "City of Stone." "Eye of the Beholder" certainly makes up for anything that there wasn't time for in these 44 minutes, but I'm hoping we get a better look at Xanatos's past at some point in our futures.
In time, we'll get to everything...
But I really liked reading your interpretation above. Very interesting. And pretty darn accurate to my way of thinking.
What years were Titania and Oberon's children (with each other) born?
I'm not answering that at this time.
Also, it may be an immature prejudice, but I'm always going to be less likely to reveal things to an "Anonymous" poster. I know that makes little sense, as I don't know the identities of most screen names, and anyone can post any name with near impugnity anyway... and yet...
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Adam Weishaupt founds the Bavarian Illuminati.
Hakon's spirit reaches out across the globe and senses that his descendant Wolf shares his hatred of Goliath. He summons Wolf to Wyvern Hill in Scotland. Meanwhile, Goliath, Elisa, Angela and Bronx depart from Avalon and arrive in Australia. There they encounter the Matrix phenomena created by a pregnant Fox and her mother Anastasia Renard.
I've got a few oppinions/questions about Oberon. Many fans seem to veiw him as a 'bad guy'. I really don't see him as such. Yeah, he's immature,(the kind of person you don't know wether to laugh at or stranggle at times) but he's a KING. In his mind, he's supposed to get what he wants. For the most part, I often dissagree with his judgement, but I try to look at it from his point of veiw too.
For example, his punishments for the Banshee and Puck (expecialy for Puck) made many fans unhappy with him. I agree, they were harsh.... very harsh. However, I have to remember his feelings of superiority as a lord and the way HE sees it.
I interpreted his POV when punishing the Banshee and Puck to think himself pretty fair. Girl yells a lot, make her shut up. Servant doesn't want to come back to Avalon, fine, banish him. Servant wants to play mortal, fine, take away his powers. Heck, maybe he was event thinking ahead. If he ever desides to change his mind, a harsh punishment might have been better. He could always chalk it it up to being merciful or to have been 'teaching them a lesson'. Or, the subject is so releaved about having the punishment lifted they don't take the time to wonder WHY Oberon changed his mind. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth, if you will. That way, Oberon saves face. I supose I should get to the questions now.
1. During the series, will Oberon be given the chance to mature?
2. How does the poor guy keep order in his kingdom? When almost all you subjects are magical, that must be tough. Makes you wonder how he finds time to sleep...
3. You've said Oberon loves his children, does that include Merlin?
1. I like to think all our characters evolve, some for the better, some for the worse.
2. There's no one method. But being Joe Most-Powerful helps a lot.
3. Life is complicated.
Generally, I'd like to say I agree with much of your analysis of the character.
1. Why did the Archmage-Plus specifically pick Macbeth to serve him alongside Demona other than just following the directions of his future self?
2. How did the Archmage intend to deal with the returning Oberon and his entourage? Could he have fought Oberon off if he had succeeded in taking Avalon from the gargoyles?
3. Who was the greater threat in the Avalon Three Parter? The Weird Sisters or the Archmage?
1. Do you think he needed a better reason? (I do, but I may be a touch smarter than he is.)
2. Not sure he knew about Oberon's pending return.
3. Depends on whether you're the Magus or Goliath.
When they speak of Oberon's Law and/or The Law that Cannot Be Broken, does this refer only to the law of non-interference, or in a more general, "his word is law" sense?
Depends on context.
You mentioned in response to a recent question from DPH that Oberon overthrew Queen Mab and married Titania after he fathered Merlin. Did I read this correctly? I certainly found it intriguing, since I'd always assumed that Oberon took over from Mab long before Merlin's birth. (I suppose that this also means, again if I read your response correctly, that Oberon wasn't cheating on Titania after all when he begat Merlin.)
I take it that this also means that Shakespeare's portrayal of Oberon and Titania as a married couple in Theseus's time was an anachronism in the Gargoyles Universe? (Though it's probably no worse than the fact that Bottom and his fellow amateur actors seem more like Elizabethan Englishmen than ancient Athenians.)
Yes, I see the era-combining of Theseus and a married Oberon/Titania as being fairly Xena-esque in its anachronism.
I've got to say, Puck is one of my favorite characters (which is funny, because most of my favorite characters aren't the favorites of other people). Maybe it's because he reminds me of my cat, but it's probebly because he has something I've never been very good at getting: a decent sense of humor. Oberon on the other hand..... It took me a while to warm up to him. I like him now though. Because I'm a person who has been taught humility since the age of seven, I think he's waaaaaay too proud. My mom thinks he's a bit of a baby, but she's amused by it. Maybe as a phycologist, she sees something I don't. The following observations and questions are about the two afore mentioned members of the Third Race. I guess they count as one topic....
I was suprised by Oberon's harsh punishment for Puck in 'The Gathering' (expecialy since HE was the one at fault), but I guess his banishment from Avalon could have been a 'So There' kind of thing. In my mom's oppinion (She's a fan too, by the way) Oberon was like 'Oh, it's BORING, is it? I guess you won't mind never coming back then....' and Puck was like 'Well, actually, I was just sort of..... whining.' Later, I thought I hit the moral of the story and told my mom (who was surprised I hadn't gotten it earlier). Our conversation went something like this:
Me: Mom! I think I got the moral of the story!
Me: Your pride doesn't just hurt you; it hurts the people around you!
Mom: ..... Duh.
Yeah... now for some real questions.
1. You said Oberon probebly still cares for Puck. What about Puck still caring for Oberon? After a punishment like that, (which I figure was done more for Oberon's pride than anything else) I might be a little bitter.
2. If this wasn't fair, why didn't Titania say something? Is she still upset about the donkey thing? I can't say I blame her, but we're talking about a way extream punishment here!
3. Will this state of tension be adressed in future stories?
1. Bitterness and feeling aren't mutually exclusive.
2. If you say so. Titania got her way, largely though.
At Gathering, Part II, when Petros Xanatos shoot and wounded Oberon(deadly, in my opinion) with an iron arrow, why Oberon didn't died? Is he "just" valnerable to iron, or can die by it?
For example, if you cut Oberon's head with an iron sword, would Oberon died?
He can die from prolonged exposure, but assuming the exposure isn't prolonged to the point of death, he can recover by having the exposure "removed". (Think Kryptonite, for lack of a better term.) So the answer to your first question is both.
Having said that, I did feel like we cheated a bit in Gathering II.
And I would think that if you managed to cut off Oberon's head with an iron sword, he would in fact die... assuming he didn't see it coming and removed his own head to dodge the blow.
THE GATHERING, PART TWO
I'm having a difficult time figuring out where I want to start with this episode.
The revelation of "Owen-is-Puck" is, of course, the high point, but I also find myself thinking about the battle with Oberon.
Oberon is, without a doubt, the most powerful adversary the gargoyles have ever had to face--and this time he's at full power! However, I find his more subtle uses of said power to be the most effective. I mean, he became a giant and while that's definitely threatening and awe-inspiring, it didn't help him much in any practical sense. But when he actually calms down ("Anger...clouds my judgment.") he really does become unstoppable. Even drained and withered, he proves more than a match for our heroes. The thing with the cape absolutely rocked, of course, but my favorite trick is when Goliath leaps at Oberon...and goes right through him (a trick that will be repeated in VENDETTAS). Oberon then hurls Goliath with a gesture (and a pretty cool line, "This altercation is OVER."). Even at the end, Fox's magic blast doesn't stop Oberon by overpowering him (in fact, when he comes flying back in he seems about ready to kick everyone's ass and take names--actually, I find his "I...have had...ENOUGH!" kind of funny as well as foreboding). In the end, Oberon isn't really defeated...he just changes his mind (thanks to said magic outburst and some choice words from Goliath).
One thing I really thought about here was that, despite banishing Puck and giving a rather curt/foreboding farewell, Oberon seems willing to let bygones be bygones. Partially due to your thoughts on Oberon, Greg, I've actually started to see the more magnanimous side of Ol' Blue Skin.
Over the years, I've come to think better of Oberon than I did during the initial airings. Now I think he's pretty cool.
This viewing, during the gargoyles's battle with Oberon, I noticed how quickly Lex and Hudson got taken out. Especially Lex, he didn't get off a single attack. At least Hudson got to whack at Oberon's hair with his sword (for all the good that did).
I can see one of those "cartoon" moments you mentioned, with Oberon swatting at the gargoyles like flies. I actually think it works as a "comic relief" moment before Oberon brings the statues to life.
That "stone figures" bit was actually pretty cool. Unfortunately, I liked the guy with the hammer and he destroys himself to take out Broadway (speaking of which, for Broadway that must have hurt!).
Count me as another who loves Xanatos's weak attempt to cover his saving Broadway.
"It's incredible how often that move works." I LOVE inside jokes like that.
The Iron Clan was a nice variation on the Steel Clan. I mean, we (my brother and I) knew they were bulkier than the SC, but only occasionally did I really notice just how much BIGGER they were (during the chase down the side of the Eyrie Building, you see a now human-sized Oberon go by, followed by the Cybots and a gigantic Iron Clan robot). I'm also absurdly pleased by the "launching points" for the Iron Clan...it makes me wonder how much of the buildings surrounding the Eyrie Xanatos owns or rents.
I loved seeing Renard come to the rescue. Renard sounds stronger here, to me, than he has since OUTFOXED. His words aren't as broken apart as they were even in PART ONE. I like this touch. I'm a little sad that the last we see of Renard in this is "I've failed him." It would have been nice if he were a part of the little "victory celebration" at the end. Heck, it would have been nice if Petros could have been a part of it--and his exit wasn't as dignified as Renard's. Petros just got knocked out and forgotten.
I always figured that while the iron harpoon hurt Oberon, the iron bell would basically rip the very fabric of his being apart. After all, at the right pitch, sound can shatter glass.
And finally we come to the big revelation. Any disappointment I felt at my brother being right was curtailed by my delight at this excellent little twist. And Puck's explanation for playing the straight man made perfect sense to me.
When I first saw Vogel, I thought he was just an in-joke, even after he became a character in his own right. Little did I know you guys had strong reasons for his similarity to Owen.
It still surprises me that Puck actually had his creations rough up Oberon. Dang, but the little guy's ballsy.
I just love "Oberon does not compromise...Oberon COMMANDS!" Mostly, I love it for Terrence Mann's reading of it. It's just...wow.
We all kind of figured that Fox would display some magic at the end. It was practically a given. However, Puck's reaction to it (which you've already quoted) is priceless.
I was a bit surprised when Oberon banished Puck. I have to admit, I hadn't expected that. And I actually kind of felt sorry for the little elf afterwards, but...he did kind of ask for it.
I was surprised and pleased when Xanatos thanked the clan like he did. Of course Goliath (ascribing to the "Fool me once..." school of thought) is suspicious. I like the actual sad look on Xanatos's face when Goliath snubs him. But then Goliath smiles as he talks about "the transforming power of a child's love." Xanatos may have been the "main villain" for the first season and most of the second, but already that title doesn't fit him as well as it once did.
Other little things:
-I love Oberon's exasperated "Now what?" when the Air Fortress shows up.
-I also liked seeing Oberon's giant footprints in the street (who's going to explain THAT?).
-You guys had Petros notice Oberon's "shrinkage." Only after we the audience had seen it happen twice. I like that, although the characters notice something quickly, they don't see it the instant it starts to happen.
-Hudson's "You've had quite an influence." I find Ed Asner's reading of that intriguing. I like it. I can't say why...it just struck me.
-After having been a major part of the World Tour, Bronx just sits this one out. He probably missed his soup bone.
I'll admit, I believed Titania when she indicated things had gone according to her plan. I don't know what she whispered to Fox (and have never asked), but I do start to see Fox smiling before the camera cuts away.
And yes, Greg, this is the first, last, and only time that Broadway calls Angela "Angie."
Okay, I think that covers THE GATHERING. Next...
I'm glad you like Oberon. I like him too. You just have to walk a mile in his shoes to begin to understand him. NOTE: I'm not being an apologist for him or approving of everything he did. But I think it's worth trying to understand him, see things from his PoV.
How does Oberon maintain his rule over his Children? So far we've seen that many of them have abilities that could probably kill Oberon like Anubis's ability to manipulate life and death and Puck's ability to rewrite reality or is Oberon just much more powerful than the combined might of his children?
Than the COMBINED might... no, I doubt it. But do you really think that THAT group could agree on a replacement?
And to address your specific examples, Oberon is clearly more potent than Puck. Puck can't rewrite reality. He can simply send a false vision. SO not the same thing.
And we've seen how rigid Anubis is with his powers.
Hi.....uhhhh.........hi again.......I have some more questions about Oberon and Titania...but they refer to the show, not the play. So I put up a separate post so it could go under a separate...thingy.
1. When was the changing boy born in your show? (I KNOW....I used changeling last time!!! I SPELL BAD!!!....or wuz I right last time...? ARG!!!)
2. Is the boy a grown-up now in the show?
3. What did Titania think of the play "A Midsummers Nights Dream?"
4. So....I was wondering......what did Titania whisper to
Fox?.................Uhh......Mr. Weisman.......hello?.....hrm, where did he go?
Oh my, the doorbell! I have company! Yay!
(Opens the door to find Greg Weisman standing at the door with a baseball bat)
Oh my goodness! Its Mr. Weisman at my house! Have you come to tell me what Titania said?
Greg: (lightly tapping the bat up and down on his hand) Yeah....something like that...Are you familiar with the story "The lady, or the Tiger" by Frank R. Stockton?
Greg: Well, its sort of like that.
Greg: And for asking me that question in the first place....(raises the bat)
Uh, oh.....erk!..... :)
Im just being stupid right now. Thanks again.
1. Changeling. And I haven't placed this event on my timeline as yet.
2. I'm not saying.
3. I'm sure when she first saw it she was far from pleased. I like to think that she's matured enough now that she's come to appreciate its finer qualities.
4. <cricket chirp>
Hello! (snickering).......Ah, another glorious day to be alive!!! What an honor to live in such a world we live in!! :)
Well Im back, with a vengeance.
I have to tell you something, when I twas a little girl watching "The Mirror" and hearing (learning) about "A Midsummers Nights Dream", I was curios and whipped out my mothers "Completed works of William Shakspere" book and tried to read it. But.....I was to young (or stupid...?) to understand it, so I tried it again when I was 16 and really enjoyed it! Also, when I bought the second season DVD set and watch "The Mirror", it re-kindled my interest and I re-read it. WHY is I telling U this? Well, I have a question about the story that I still (unfortunately) don't get... :(
1. WHY did Oberon want the changeling boy? And......
2. Why wouldn't Titania let him have the boy? (I know that Titania and the boys mother were friends...is that why?)
I hope that I don't sound too stupid...but I just don't understand that part. Well, that's my Shakspere Q. Have a nice, happy, and all-around good day!
1. I have this theory that the boy was his son. Many scholars theorize that he had a romantic interest in the boy. Others point out that fairy lore is just FILLED with fairies capturing and keeping small children.
2. That's it mostly, I think. I also believe there's a certain perverse satisfaction in keeping something from Oberon that he wants. And like Oberon, there's the fairy tradition of capturing and keeping small children.
Was Merlin's conception/birth intentional on the part of Oberon? What I mean is did Oberon deliberately seek out to have a son who was half mortal in the case of Merlin?
I mostly think he was hot for Merlin's mom.
While utilizing the nifty SEARCH function, I decided to look up responses for "the whisper". I came up with this:
Question received on Mon, August 07, 2000 03:01:14 AM
1.What did titania whisper into fox's ear at he end of the gathering part2
1. Do you think they'll be wondering about this in Ask Greg four years from now?
Response recorded on August 23, 2000
And given the most recent Q&A on that subject was recently posted.... 4+ years after that Q&A was done.... I think your answer holds true.. heh :) We were still wondering that in Ask Greg.. in 2004 :)
The fandom that you didn't anticipate has bugged you about something that you didn't think you would have been bugged about.
Keep it up, it's fun being confused, etc. :D
My pleasure. (Most of the time.)
I was reading your answers to the Oberon/Titanina Family trees (November 2004) and two things caught my attn:
"Lord Oberon married Titania (who became Queen Titania after Mab was overthrown). (Note: Oberon intentionally did not take the title of King. Retaining his "Lord" title is his semi-skewed attempt at being more... egalitarian.) "
-When you say that Titania 'became' queen while Oberon chose not to 'take' the title king- do you mean that Oberon's claim came from Titania and not from Queen Mab or his conquest of her? (Queen Mab is his mother, right?) Is Titania queen or queen consort?
I know in many cultures that seem to have inherited kingship the facts are actually differnt. Take Macbeth, for example: Luach was probably the first son to directly inheret a crown from his father in Scottish history. Macbeth's claim was as good as Duncun Canmore's, but Gruach came from an older line than either. Are Oberon's children similarly not straight forward? With near imortality succession probably doesn't come up all that much anyway.
You also wrote:
"Oberon also has at least two sons by mortal women: Merlin and the changeling boy from Shakespeare's "A Midsummer Night's Dream". "
I cannot believe I didn't notice you saying that before! When I read/saw Midsummer, (one of very few plays I can't get into while reading but love to watch), I always assumed the boy was the mortal child of a beloved, all-to-mortal, devotee of Titania's. The complete disregard for the boy shown by Oberon stealing him away (both physically and magically from Titania's attention) always left Oberon a bit too scummy for me to be fully happy with the 'all the couples were reunited and lived happily ever after." (Though, I'm told if my knowledge of mythology were more complete I would know the royal mortal couple don't end so happily, or at least longly, either.)
If the boy was in fact Oberon's, than the disregard might be feigned as a ploy to get him from Titania. Oberon is immediately made less scummy.
Barage of questions:
1.In the Gargoyles universe, how true to the Shakespeare is the 'true' story?
2.Was Titania aware that the child was her husband's?
If so, was her care for the boy as innocent and real as they seem (to me) in the play?
3.What made Oberon father a child with a worshiper of his wife? Coincidence? Meaness? Was she a worshiper of Titania at the time or did that come after?
4.I think, but do not remember clearly, that the woman did not die in childbirth. What did she die of, and could Oberon have been of help preventing it? Did he try?
(My pet theory is that Titania has tried to help Renayrd out a bit in his illness, but there is only so much she can do without being obvious. And even if she were to use blatant magic, there is still only so much she can do. Medicine and healing, though we take it for granted, is still 'big magic'.)
5. What ever did happen to the changling after the events of the play? Or, if you don't want to go into specifics, is he alive or at least have a unnaturally long life?
Apropo of very little- last summer I caught a rather good preformance of Midsummer in a Shakespeare in the Park(ing Lot). (Not as good as their Richard II that they seemlessly reordered to make the first half as flashbacks during the second.) Uneven. but with real flashes of brillance. Instead of dual roles, they had the traditionally dual roles played by exchangable pairs. The Oberon and Titania I caught had fantastic presence.
Titania is Queen Consort, technically, but it's also a position of not a little authority at the top of the feudal pyramid, answerable ONLY to Oberon... and even he is somewhat reluctant to order his Queen around. Note that when the Weird Sisters report that everyone but Titania and Puck have arrived for the Gathering, Oberon immediately states that Titania may come and go as she pleases.
In any case, Oberon's claim to his throne comes from both being the son of Mab and being the one who took Mab down. It does not come via Titania.
As for your Midsummer Questions, this is a story I hope to tell one day, so I'm going to be stingier...
1. We'll have to see.
2. I prefer to leave the answer to this ambiguous.
3. She was already a worshipper. His motives... are also best left ambiguous for now.
4. I'm not revealing this now.
1) Why did the producers of the show go with iron as the general weakness for Oberon's Children when many of them like Raven, Odin or Anubis were figures from mythologies that didn't see iron as a sort of "god kryptonite". In fact the Fenris wolf from norse mythology was able to snap his iron chains and had to be finally chained with a magical one and many of the gods and demons of the Far East didn't seem to have a problem with iron.
2)In relation to the first question why was Oberon the king and lord of the third race that included such beings as Odin and possibly Zeus and other godhead when in the traditional stories he was just a minor king of the fairies or elves?
In general I'm just rather curious why you put so many of the qualities found in fairies and elves such as Oberon and the iron weakness onto mythological figures such as Odin, Coyote or Anasi which in the end from my point of view kind of diminishes the gods.
1) When combining so many mythologies, certain choices have to be made. Since we were putting a traditional "fairy" figure like Oberon at the top of our feudal pyramid, using iron made sense. I understand your objection, even sympathize with it, but I also don't regret our decision.
2) Well, a short answer is that we wanted to diminish the gods a bit... or put another way, we wanted to create a unifying system for them all. A feudal system. Oberon and Titania got priority, because in general SHAKESPEARE got priority. Titania, as far as I know, is not a traditional figure but an invention of ol' Will's. I've always freely admitted to being a Shakespeare fanatic, so his characters, including Macbeth, Oberon, Titania, Puck, the Weird Sisters, etc. were always going to have featured roles in this series. Ultimately, it comes down to personal preference, and I was the guy in charge. That doesn't make me RIGHT in some transcendent sense, just means that I had the right to create the universe I wanted to play in. So I did.
Sorry to ask this again, but, here it goes...
What did Titania whisper to Fox at the end of "The Gathering, Part 2"?
Here are my reasons for you answering this question:
1. It's been long enough. Time to answer this question.
2. It's a burning question that most people want answered.
And another question:
Would what she whispered to Fox be important in a future episode or spin-off?
Your reasoning seems faulty to me.
1. It's almost been too long. I think at this point my answer would be anti-climactic.
2. I know there's a contingent that doesn't want the answer, but just cuz some fans think they want it, doesn't mean they're right to want it.
And in any case, I have promised to reveal the answer when the Gathering has five hundred or more attendees, and not before. So if you really want the answer, help us scare up attendance for Pigeon Forge!
As for your final question, all things come around in Gargoyles.