Comments for the week ending September 2, 2002

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Airwalker-- I have to agree with about everything you said about Athur. He would have had a hard time moving from his time to the needed one and it wuould have caused problems and maybe cost lives. Elisa wakening him early was a good thing. He was able ajust to a time closer to when he will be needed with out the wars and fighting that will surely come when he is called apon later.
Arthur would have to be sent back to sleep untill his needed time or else when it came the right time he would not be there. The legend of The Great King Arthur Pendragon stays that he will sleep untill he is again needed. So to live out his destiny and to keep from rewriting legend he would have to return to his sleeping.
I love the legend of Arthur so to me this is a great story line.
Jenna
Fenton, Mi
Sunday, September 1, 2002 11:16:00 PM
IP: 66.19.162.44

Hi everyone Juat thought I'd say hi sipmly because I can hehe.
Jenna
Sunday, September 1, 2002 11:02:03 PM
IP: 66.19.162.44

TODD - You wrote: [Interesting concept about Arthur returning to Avalon and reawakening in 2198. However, I will confess that I don't consider it quite the best solution, since it would give a sort of "what was the point of his modern-day adventures?"]

His perhaps having to go back to sleep and wait for the true time he'll be needed doesn't mean that any of his modern day adventures were for nothing. They are a part of shaping him into a leader able to function in the situation that he was originally waiting to be awakened for.

Arthur might be "a leader born" as the Lady of the Lake put it in PENDRAGON but he's still a medieval king with a medieval worldview; he doesn't need to hit the ground running when he's really needed. He needs to be prepared and have some understanding of how to function in a modern world. Catching up from a 21st century worldview to a 23rd century worldview is completely different from making the jump from medival to futuristic understanding. Goliath and his Clan were able to adjust to living in modern times but to be honest most of his surviving Clan was young enough to move with the change. Plus Goliath and Company had the luxury of relative isolation to be able to make the adjustment in. If the situation is bad enough that it needs King Arthur to show up and save the day then he's probably not going to have the same opportunity that they had. He needs to be sort of prepared in advance.

Not only that but he also needs to learn how to live again; he was sleeping all that time but also in the time before that he was a King - he needs to be able to interact with people not as a king to his subjects but as a person who isn't king anymore. He kept saying he's the King of Britain but he's not. He's a man out of time who once was King. But thats gone now. (I always had the feeling that Griff wouldn't really say anything to him to not hurt his feelings but that Merlin would be the first one to point it out to him the moment he says it in front of him.) Wandering in Modern Times gives him the opportunity to come to grips with that. Be a little humbled and see that even if he isn't technically a king anymore that he is still a leader.

You wrote: [Also, it would actually make matters more interesting if Arthur couldn't go back to Avalon and return to sleep.]

That would make the situation much more interesting. I was just trying to suggest that his time for sleeping wouldn't be over because he'd still be needed for whatever it was that he was originally waiting for. If he doesn't find a way to be around for that then it could have grave reprecussions. Its an interesting situation for him to be put in - becoming part of the modern world and then having to loose everything behind AGAIN. Though as you point out it makes it even more interesting if he has to find some other way to go back to sleep.

But how else would a King Arthur series end if not him being carted off into the sunset to be kept somewhere until he's needed? That part of the legend of King Arthur is just too good not to use again. As a symbol of hope and as a last line of defense for the future he can't just live out and end his life in obscurity - he has to go on till he accomplishes whatever it is that he is destined to do.

You wrote: [That would make it more of a challenge.]

True. Although with technology induced sleep is an easy possibility too. Matrix is going to be based in New Camelot and it would make sense that if Arthur was going to be put to sleep off Avalon that he'd be likely to be sleeping there than anywhere else in the world. Its isolated and that sort of gives a mystical feel to the place. We could have a situation where Matrix being taken off line leads to Arthur being awakened in his New Camelot to confront what he might have been needed for. If Samson can rally the Gargoyles (and Fey) against the Spawn then Arthur might be needed to deal with the Illuminati and then rally Humanity to face the threat. (It could be a good excuse for a Macbeth reappearance too - this time besides Merlin, Arthur has someone else he can turn to for help.)



SHAN - You wrote: [except THE LEGEND OF TARZAN, which at first was going to debut as the first original show to come to TOON DISNEY but was deemed "too intense" or somesuch]

What?! TARZAN is too intense? I believe you but this is startling to hear. That's the excuse they are using? I mean I've watched a few episodes of it and it seemed pretty tame compared to tons of other action series that are currently on the air. JACKIE CHAN ADVENTURES and the teen X-MEN cult series are much more intense than this. I understand that TOON DISNEY isn't shooting for an adult audience or even an older teen audience but I thought that at least they would try to get some of the demographic that CN is going for, you know the 9-12 year olds, in addition to the younger audience that they have. This makes it seem that the only audience they want is from the womb to about age 5.

I had hopes that one of these days TOON DISNEY might shift towards going into competition with CN when it gets around to developing some independent new programming. But while it hasn't started to develop anything new and independent yet, it still seems to be moving in the opposite direction from that idea. At this point the only hope for this series or any Disney animated dramatic series sits on the main Disney Channel which I don't think is a grand possibility at this point. (But I could be wrong; I'm not an industry insider after all - and it is possible that tomorrow the executives could get up and decide to shift what programming they are doing. That last bit is not really a realistic possibility but stranger things have happened. :-) )



BLAISE - You wrote: [Otherwise, Dracon seems to avoid direct confrontations, whereas Brode is far more hands on.]

Well, Dracon is old money after all while Brode is trying to establish himself. The differences in that sphere alone make it necessary for Brode to take more risks and for Dracon to be more careful.

You wrote: [That got to me--that he was robbed not only of movement, but of feeling as well.]

I liked the scene but the real question is how can Renard in the Golem really feel anything? Its just animated Clay after all. Even with Renard's soul in it, it is just animated Clay that is being possessed by a Human soul.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Sunday, September 1, 2002 09:50:20 PM
IP: 12.88.88.253

And..a link would be nice..

http://mgc.gargoyles-fans.org
Siryn
Sunday, September 1, 2002 10:35:57 AM
IP: 129.21.145.6

Bud-Clare> Okay. <:)

MGC updated
New Topic for September
Voting has begun on August topics
Siryn
Sunday, September 1, 2002 10:35:35 AM
IP: 129.21.145.6

Siryn> *sighs* I know, I've just been too tired to email you back. I'll definitely email you by Monday. (I can't even type straight right now. Ugh.)
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Saturday, August 31, 2002 11:35:04 PM
IP: 129.21.10.100

****A big, red drop of liquid oozes from the ceiling. It hangs for what seems an eternity, and then falls to the floor. It spreads out upon impact, only to fall back in on itself. The liquid mass slowly forms into a more humanoid shape. When the metamorphosis is complete, Blaise stands in the Room.**** Hey all!
I'm writing this from a public access terminal at a library--I still don't have the 'Net (or cable TV) in my apartment yet, and it may be a while before I can. I've got to find car insurance first (one little accident and everyone wants to charge you $400+ a month!), and today I'm going to try to find a few small pieces of furniture (a desk and fuuton (sp?) or similar). Even then, I've got some work to do in the apartment for little fixer-ups here and there. But...for now, some comments.

MATT> ...[shudder] I do not envy you, my friend. That's some very unpleasant juju. Hopefully that will be the ONLY time anything like that ever happens in your life.

DCV: GOLEM> As soon as I saw the title, I instantly thought of the connection between this legendary figure and our gargs. It's fitting that Max's description of the Golem resonates with Goliath.
Actually, when I saw this, I had not realized that there really was a Rabbi Loew, and that legends had connected him with the Golem. You learn something new from GARGOYLES every time.
I liked a lot of the animation and character work in this episode. Especially the shots of the gargs climbing and gliding. They were very well done.
Brode interested me mostly because of his look (and Clancy Brown's voice). He's given some nice facial expressions and character moments. I don't think he's on a level with Xanatos, but he does seem a bit more competent (sp?) than Dracon--that boy's biggest chance to shine came only at the very beginning of DEADLY FORCE when he knocked down Bruno. Otherwise, Dracon seems to avoid direct confrontations, whereas Brode is far more hands on. And, as has been said, he can think more in the long-term.
Max Loew--another budding hero our travelers meet. Unlike Nick, Max seems to have some belief in ancient legends, and though he is reluctant at first (and voices his doubts) it takes very little prodding from Janus or anyone else for Max to do what must be done. I really like some of his and Janus' exchanges. In terms of character, my favorite is Janus telling Max, "YOU are the Chosen One," with Max responding, "Which doesn't leave me any choice." In terms of comedy, I like Max's "What if it doesn't like me?" to which Janus can't help but smile.
I really wish more could have been done with Janus. He seems like such an interesting character (heck, he seemed even less taken aback by the gargoyles than Max--and even that boy took the whole thing in stride).
I loved the flashback of Prague 400 years ago. That moment where the old man falls down, and then we pan up to see the shadow of the Attacker beating him...that was one of the most chilling moments in this show. Of course, it's undercut by the same old man appearing in relatively good condition later, but still.... And the ceremony of the Golem's Awakening was breathtaking. I loved the scenery with all the candles, and seeing Loew through the Golem's POV. And I pretty much fell in love with the Hebrew incantations. Of course, the rest of the scene has some very anime moments. Not just the pink hair on the woman with the baby, but also some of the facial expressions of the Attackers seem straight out of "Speed Racer" or something. It's somewhat distracting, but not terribly so.
I like how Act 2 begins only with the striking of a match. A nice moment.
Now, for Renard. I was mildly surprised to see Vogel with him, but I didn't think it a real discrepancy. It wasn't too great a stretch of the imagination to think that Renard had forgiven him. What did surprise me was their being in the company of Brode. That, and Renard's "reveal" (hidden in shadows at first before coming into the light) lent a sinsiter nature to his appearance here. One of my friends, who had never seen the show before, had caught a glimpse of this and assumed "the old man" to be the main bad guy or something close. For my own part, I was instantly intrigued. Why would Renard have this dark aura about him?
I knew Goliath would try to get in touch with him, they are friends after all, and was surprised at how curt Renard was with G. I like how Goliath's mouth hangs open for an instant after being rebuffed, and then he broods away.
This episode was the first time I realized Renard had an illness. I had thought before that he was just very old, but with this...it adds even more bitterness to his situation (more than if it had been just a natural aging) and makes his fall more believable. When Renard does become the Golem, he has a very telling moment, where after crowing, "I can walk," he touches the cheek of his human body and quietly murmurs, "I can feel again." That got to me--that he was robbed not only of movement, but of feeling as well. Of course, he abuses his new-found power (and now I finally know the name on the tombstone he knocked over, and as for the car Greg, it is a bit battered, but whole enough for Renard's smashing it to crush in the top and windshield). Still, he seemed to degenerate rather quickly for me. I found his turning back towards the light, so to speak, more natural. But I KNEW that at some point, Renard-Golem would say "It's not my fault"--that just had to be there to show how much he betrayed his ideals. While I may have found his turnaround rather jarring originally, in later viewings, especially this last one, I notice how much Robert Culp is able to do with his voice. He actually portrays the doubt, frustration, fear, everything. His acting goes a long way towards making Renard's changes work. Still, a little more "breathing space" might have helped.
One thing I really thought about just this last time--Renard orders Vogel to guard his human body. Even there, Renard has doubts about being in the Golem.
And I also like Goliath's line about "Giving up all you believe in--for a piece of CLAY!"
For his own part, Vogel seems to have thrown himself even more into the role of "yes-man" than usual (probably to make up for his earlier betrayal). He only comes out of it once when he chastises Goliath (he's got guts, that one).
I had figured that Goliath and the others would have tried to get in contact with Renard or someone to get home eventually, but when Goliath decided to stay the course and finish out going where Avalon sent them to go...I was almost cynically expecting that. Yet, I was not really disappointed--it made sense for everything and everyone up to this point. So I sat back and tried to stop worrying about when they'd get home.
Misc. stuff: When Goliath gets hit by Brode, it's with a stun gun--that looks very much like his regular bullet gun.
One of Brode's goons is the thug from the park in DEADLY FORCE. And the driver of the car that nearly runs into the Golem looks like the guy who tried to buy a gun from Glasses in the same episode, except the guy here has black hair (a second cousin, maybe?).
While on the subject of cars--the guy above was on the left side of the car, driving the right side of the road, whereas Brode was on the right side of the car, driving on the left side of the road. Which is the right one in Prague?
Anyway, while it's not on my "top ten list," I do think this is a pretty cool episode. Of course, only now, after reading your ramble, Greg, do I actually realize the importance of it in regards to the focus of the World Tour. Very nice that.

That's it from me for this week. Day to day living in RL is a lot harder than college, that's for sure. Oh, well. I'll always try to pop by when I get the chance! Until then, farewell. ****Blaise dissolves into a red mist that floats out of the Room through various openings.*****
Blaise
Saturday, August 31, 2002 04:08:57 PM
IP: 128.125.140.171

Sorry for two posts so close, but after reading further I found there was more I could comment on. One specifc and one thing in general.

Mooncat -- You DO know that "One of those Days" is a song from the episode Greg Weisman co-wrote, right? ;)

State of the industry and animation -- yeah, the ownership of multiple stations by the same companies is part of the problem. Also, look at another thing. Most of the US broadcast networks are also owned by people who have cable channels, so they repurpose stuff from the cable channels they own. CBS Saturday mornings are shows that get played on Nickelodeon and now also the 24 hour digital cable channel Nicktoons. ABC Kids (no longer ABC One Saturday Morning) largely is made up of hits from the Disney Channel such as KIM POSSIBLE, and now will include live action shows like EVEN STEVENS and LIZZIE MCGUIRE. Each time a repurposing happens, that also is one less timeslot that needs a show for someone like me to be a production coordinator on or for Greg to write for. I think it's fair to say it's a big factor in the current state of animation.

And in the cases where companies do not (or no longer) have cable channels, they're willing to sell that Saturday morning space to others to worry about filling in exchange for getting that minimum FCC family friendly programming. Specific examples are the FOX BOX coming Saturday morning to FOX network that will totally be programmed by 4KIDS and subleasing some space to DIC for educational animated shows; also (while not yet any animation, some will be coming) the DISCOVERY KIDS coming to NBC this fall.

The one thing I do not know the state on yet is the partnership block where Disney was providing content under the name of DISNEY 1 TOO to UPN stations for Sunday broadcast for the past several years. That contract has ended, so far as I know, and most of those shows (except THE LEGEND OF TARZAN, which at first was going to debut as the first original show to come to TOON DISNEY but was deemed "too intense" or somesuch) are now premiering on Disney Channel Sept 2nd. UPN still needs to fill this FCC requirement too, though. And (again, TARZAN the exception) the Disney 1 TOO block was always repuprosing older reruns to another network.

So as to where things are headed? Wish I could tell you. Wish I knew. It's been a crazy past six months.

Best,
Shan


Sahn - [shan@dm.net]
Los Angeles, CA, USA
Friday, August 30, 2002 10:38:06 PM
IP: 198.81.26.201

Re JEM's Misfits vs the underground band The Misfits>For the answer on this follow the link below (or click on my name):
http://members.tripod.com/~jemlist/FAQ.html#reallifeband

This takes you to a specific point of the FAQ for the TRULY OUTRAGEOUS JEM! MALILING LIST, as run on yahoogroups but also has a relatively extensive homepage. My sister happens to be the moderator. Basically this is the summary of the band situation as she and I (and the list) have heard it through several sources over the six year existence of the list.

In the rest of my life, still looking for work and resources wearing thin. Need to focus to keep hope going, the industry in general is slowly getting better but a struggle for most.

Shan - [shan@dm.net]
Los Angeles, CA, USA
Friday, August 30, 2002 10:21:49 PM
IP: 198.81.26.201

AIRWALKER - Interesting concept about Arthur returning to Avalon and reawakening in 2198. However, I will confess that I don't consider it quite the best solution, since it would give a sort of "what was the point of his modern-day adventures?" feeling to the whole series - that Arthur wakes up and leaves Avalon just to return a little while later. It would be like ending "Gargoyles" with Goliath and his clan going back into hiding without making any progress on the "make peace with humanity" objective at all, to have their descendants re-emerge a few centuries later to try it again.

Also, it would actually make matters more interesting if Arthur couldn't go back to Avalon and return to sleep. Because then he'd have to actually tackle the problem of how to be able to show up for the occasion that he was supposed to wake up for, and with the easiest solution (more sleep on Avalon) taken away from him. That would make it more of a challenge.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Friday, August 30, 2002 08:18:02 PM
IP: 63.208.40.65

TODD - You wrote: [actually, I saw it as being a bit like Goliath and Renard in "Golem", with Arthur in the Goliath role and Duval in the Renard role]

Thats not a bad dynamic for Pendragon and Duval to emulate. It fits much better than the dynamic that I had in mind. The Goliath/Renard dynamic is not one that would have come to my mind if we weren't talking about GOLEM.

I always figured Pendragon/Duval in a more Goliath/Demona-ish light; obviously the parallels aren't exactly the same but a lot of the dynamic is sort of similier. We have two people out of medieval times who were defenders with one (Arthur) being more idealistic than the other (I'm not doubting Percival but it seems to me that in order to be idealistic on the level of King Arthur you have to be a bit of a dreamer and detached from reality; Percival being a Knight wouldn't be able to maintain that detachment since he would travel among the people and would need to have a more down to earth realistic bent). The kingdom and ideals that they both sought to protect fell despite all their good intentions (and perhaps even because of them) and they both happen to survive that destruction with one having to live hundreds of years in the real world, being changed and shaped by that, while the other goes off to sleep off that time period and can remain as unchanged and idealistic as he was when the whole mess started. And upon waking in the modern world the two find themselves at odds due to the sharp differences in worldview.

You know, while I'm not that much of a King Arthur buff (I developed a bit of an interest due to the series and visiting this comment room but I never really had THAT much of an interest in Arthurian myth and legend) I find the longer we talk about this spinoff, the more I'd like to see it done. There was a point when it was up there with THE NEW OLYMPIANS in my "would watch if done but not as interested as I am with BAD GUYS and G2198" but it starts to sound more and more interesting as time goes by. (And if we can't get the series then maybe we'll get another series proposal ala the G2198 one. I'd like to see that.)

You wrote: [Merlin, on the other hand - at least, in the traditional legend - was locked away in his cave before Percival ever came to Arthur's court, and Percival would be just a name to Griff).]

Still Merlin is an immortal and just because he was in his cave doesn't mean that he couldn't interact with the outside world and with Duval. And he might have an plot interest in reforming Duval that we might not know about yet. Griff on the other hand would just relate to Duval as Duval the Illuminati and not as Percival the Knight.

(And of course there is Morgana Le Fey and Nimue to consider; they have been wandering around for the same amount of time. Its possible that the relationship Duval has with them has changed and developed since the fall of Camelot. After all unless they're trying to kill each other ala Macbeth and Demona then immortals are going to tend to gravitate towards each other. Being around mortals would just be painful. Nimue at the very least might have an interest in his reforming. And Morgana might have an interest in his NOT reforming which would make for an interesting conflict with Arthur. Morgana as a sort of anti-Elisa to Duval? That would be interesting.)

You wrote: [Of course, if Duval were to have a redemption arc, its outcome ultimately couldn't impact the Illuminati that much - as in, leading to their dissolution - since we know from the "Gargoyles 2198" document that they'd still be around two hundred years from now. (Of course, the Illuminati might now be strong enough that even Duval might not be able to shut them down).]

Or we could get a failure in Duval being reformed as a possibility. After all the odds are that Pendragon has to return to Avalon eventually so that he can go back to sleep and be around for the crisis he was originally waiting for. Duval might be part of that crisis that Pendragon is needed for down the line - it would make sense to have an Arthurian element in the threat that Arthur was waiting on Avalon for. Duval and the Space Spawn might be it.

(PENDRAGON has all the mystical beings stating more or less that he's needed in the future as a world leader; I don't think that he'd be as acceptable now as he would be in the far future. He may have a part to play in G2198 after the resistance has some success against the Spawn. After all even if Samson and company defeat them and liberate Earth, the entire situation in the world is changed. Humanity might need a new leader to rally to. Who better than King Arthur?)

And Duval failing to reform doesn't mean that the plot would end on a low point in PENDRAGON. He could be started on the road to redemption (of sorts) there only to get sidetracked by something along the way after Arthur goes back to sleep.

You wrote: [Most likely they probably would have gone for the "confined to a chair" approach like Professor Xavier, or Renard (funny that I should have compared Duval and the Renard of "Golem", in light of that, in the paragraph above).]

Probably. I think thats its more likely that they'll do something along the lines of having him in a chair most of the time so that he's not inflamming his wound but still being able walk and even fight if he needs to. It would make a great shock for Arthur to confront Duval thinking that he can't walk and then be shocked that he's able to get up and fight just as in old times. It might even be more likely for him to start the series out like this and after the first actual Duval/Pendragon fight to shift to walking around with a cane.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Friday, August 30, 2002 07:24:09 PM
IP: 12.88.121.94

Grey Wolf> Right on! By all means let the Gathering come to PA! I'm up for that!
Jim R.
Shippensburg, PA
Friday, August 30, 2002 05:25:45 PM
IP: 208.17.70.225

ATTENTION! ALL FLORIDA/SOUTHEASTERN U.S. GARGOYLES FANS!

If you are currently living within the Florida State, here's a head's up: the beginnings of a small "mini-gathering" is being set up for a future date before the end of 2002. The plan is for all fans to meet in Orlando at Universal's Island of Adventure or one of the other theme parks for a day or two of getting together, having fun and hanging out!

If interested, contact me at the e-mail link on my name (ssobotka33616@yahoo.com). We will need to coordinate time and date, and make arrangements for those that need a place to stay if traveling far.

Thanks for your attention... we return you to your regular CR programming.

Maintain and Check Six!
Stephen R. Sobotka Jr. - [ssobotka33616@yahoo.com]
Tampa, FL, USA
Friday, August 30, 2002 04:47:36 PM
IP: 65.35.132.45

Gray Wolf - Did you ask Siryn if it was okay to use her site layout?

Did you ask me and Aimee if it was okay to use our verbage? Aimee never mention it to me...

... you already have a contract with a hotel and you haven't even won the bid yet? ... very confusing. If you don't have a contract, it's probably not a good idea to put the prospective hotel up on your site yet. If you do... well that's just weird.
You may get more respect for your bid if you aren't swiping things from other people. Just a helpful tidbit.
Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson - [jla@artchicks.org]
Friday, August 30, 2002 02:31:10 PM
IP: 216.249.98.49

Gray Wolf > Philadelphia, woo-hoo! My town! (Eagles are going to the Super Bowl this year, baby!)

Sincerely, Allaine

P.S. Tell Demona May I'll write her later today.


Allaine - [eac2nd@yahoo.com]
Philadelphia, PA
Friday, August 30, 2002 11:51:58 AM
IP: 64.12.96.138

Weee..

MGC is updated. one more day for Gargoyles DVD submissions! Send em if you got em!

Bud-Clare> *POUNCE* hey, you have email waiting for you hun. ^_^

Ack..if anyone has seen anyone from the detroit bid, if they haven't received money # information from G2002 yet, could they please email me. I promised I would get them the information, and I don't want to go back on that. <:)
Siryn
Friday, August 30, 2002 11:31:10 AM
IP: 129.21.145.6

Check out the bid for Gathering 2004!
Gray Wolf
Friday, August 30, 2002 03:03:39 AM
IP: 24.27.201.128

Hound of Ulster is among my favorite episodes, and all of you seemed to have missed that Wizard of Oz wasn't just quoted twice (once in the Radio Play, once in the episode) but it was actually quoted THREE times, the other quote was also in Hound of Ulster when Elisa say, "I don't think we're in Scotland, or Kansas either!" i always found it strange that Wizard of Oz was quoted twice in this one episode. and also, in WoOz, Toto is a Cairn Terrier, named after the cairns of Ireland! coincidence?...

Golem> one thing i always liked about Golem is in the first act when Goliath is about to go search for Renard he climbs to the top of the building and looks over Prague. its a beautiful part of the series. the sound, the animation, the mood all come together here so great.

Aaron> you interested in selling your BattleBeasts? i'm not looking for them in packages or even with their weapons, just loose good condition figures is fine...
matt
Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:59:18 PM
IP: 216.178.8.91

AIRWALKER - Good comments about the Grail and Duval. I have a strong suspicion myself that ultimately, there'd have to be some sort of "redeem Duval" arc in the Pendragon spin-off, had it been made (actually, I saw it as being a bit like Goliath and Renard in "Golem", with Arthur in the Goliath role and Duval in the Renard role); certainly both Arthur and Blanchefleur would be expected to have a strong interest in that. (They'd most likely be to the fore there, since Duval/Percival would have the most significance to them; Merlin, on the other hand - at least, in the traditional legend - was locked away in his cave before Percival ever came to Arthur's court, and Percival would be just a name to Griff).

Of course, if Duval were to have a redemption arc, its outcome ultimately couldn't impact the Illuminati that much - as in, leading to their dissolution - since we know from the "Gargoyles 2198" document that they'd still be around two hundred years from now. (Of course, the Illuminati might now be strong enough that even Duval might not be able to shut them down).

I hadn't thought of the bleeding part of the spear wound, though that is a good point. Most likely they probably would have gone for the "confined to a chair" approach like Professor Xavier, or Renard (funny that I should have compared Duval and the Renard of "Golem", in light of that, in the paragraph above). (I once wrote a - admittedly abandoned - crossover fanfic between "Gargoyles" and "X-Men: Evolution" that brought Duval in on stage briefly, and portrayed him as confined to a chair, explaining that it was a "leg problem" which ran in the family, adding "my uncle had a similar problem." In the Percival legends, the Fisher King prior to him, who had the leg wound, was Percival's uncle).
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, August 29, 2002 08:24:53 PM
IP: 65.57.61.205

TODD - You wrote: [This raises the question as to whether this wouldn't produce some controversy here, over the Grail's custodian being portrayed as the leader of a corrupt organization; it'd be almost like portraying the Pope as the leader of the Mafia.]

A lot would depend on how the Grail is played out; obviously the Arthurian angle to it is going to be played up and the religious angle is going to be glossed over. So if it is more in the traditional magical object mode then the "Grail Keeper being corrupt" plot can work out. It would be a fine line though; and the Grail itself might get played down a lot - it could be mentioned as a way to have him still be alive and in how its treating his behavior but more emphasis might be put on Duval in the here and now than on the actual physical Grail.

In fact we could come up with the Grail quest turning into a redeem Duval quest and only have an episode or two where the actual Grail shows up on screen. Otherwise it would only be present in the series in how Duval is dealing with it and his responsibility to it; in fact a successful Grail quest for Arthur could be not so much in finding the Grail but in helping Duval find the right path and become a proper Grail Keeper again. (If its all just about the Grail then the quest is really over when they find it together with Goliath and Elisa. Something else has to be present to keep the story going and to make it more than just another old Arthurian attempt to find a magical object for no reason.)

In fact it might not be such a problem having Duval being a corrupt Grail Keeper. His redemption (or at least reformation or realization of purpose once more, etc) ties into the core of both versions of the Grail legend without having to really mention the more controversial for animated TV religious one. It would be there as another layer added to the storyline that Grail buffs would enjoy.

You wrote: [he didn't say what that price was, although based on what I know of the Grail legends, I suspect that it'd be the old incurable spear wound in the leg]

Maybe; but how do you get around the blood problem? After all we can't have a wound thats gushing blood constantly since the blood might cause a problem with S&P especially these days. Maybe it might be a leg problem in general rather than a specific wound. Perhaps he could have a scar as a sign of the wound and be lame in that leg? Or perhaps even unable to walk at all? Make him sort of X-Men Xavier-ish?



PATRICK - You wrote: [Banshee takes a verbal jab at the transformed Rory that ends with "... how to deal with a noisy hero, a his little dog, too!"]

When I heard that the first time my mind flipped to SCOOBY DOO rather than THE WIZARD OF OZ. Either way though, once the antagonists says something like that you know that they're going to lose and pretty soon. So soon that there isn't really a point to fight since they're going to lose anyway. :-) They might as well give up at that point. :-)

You wrote: [After hearing it in the script reading, I was just really disappointed when that moment on the tape came and Marina, reading as Demona, didn't get to say that line.]

I'd love to hear that done; too bad it wasn't. Still it would have been fun to hear. But would it really have fit for Demona?



SPACEBABIE - You wrote: [I think we have it on tape…hey maybe you should come to the 2003 gathering]

At this point I'm planning to be there; I do finally want to see the BAD GUYS reel and besides I'd just like to finally make it to one.



ALLAINE - You wrote: [I'm one of those people who really thought Monsters, Inc. was better than Shrek]

I haven't seen MONSTERS INC yet. I plan to though.

You wrote: [Lilo was a really cute movie, especially for the younger set, and is the first in a while to rise to the level of "A Bug's Life" or "Toy Story". Well, maybe not TS, but it was close.]

It was good and I hope that its a sign of improvement to come. I just hope that they keep it up and don't slip back into sequelitis and copying anime, uh... I mean coming up with material similier to various anime. :-) They have tons of potential; thats why its so upsetting when they waste all that to put out tons of crap.



MATTHEW - You wrote: [I can't see for a reason, especially with nothing really interesting out there, why they wouldn't do it.]

True. Besides they have to do something to become competative again. It isn't like the old days anymore where they were the only company doing animation. They have competition nowadays; they can't afford to do year after year of crap.

You wrote: ["Gargoyles" was one of the oppertunites which they destoryed in Season Two when they got scared.]

I think that you mean Season Three - The Goliath Chronicles. I don't think that they purposefully destroyed the series in its third season. I do believe that they weren't as interested in it as they were when it started and I do believe that they might have had a slightly different S&P for it since it was no longer in syndication but had moved to Saturday Morning but I don't think that they wanted to drive it into the ground. Neither the executives or the people who took over the series from Greg wanted that. Disney is still a business and they aren't going to kill a property that they can make money off of just like that.

You wrote: [Season one was the strongest, and perhaps the most exploratory of the show's two season run.]

I like Season one very much too. Many of my favorite episodes come out of Season one. It set the tone and standard for everything.

But I think that Season two had a lot of strengths to it too; the main problem is that it opened up so many threads that just didn't get a chance to be explored so it has an incomplete feel to it. Also with the World Tour taking up much of the season and only a few number of post Tour Mahattan adventures happening (in comparison with the completed Tour) tends to make the season feel inbalanced, like the World Tour completely took it over.

But I still like the Tour and all it accomplished; The series would be less epic without it. If I have any complaint, its that there wasn't a chance to move on with any of these plot threads.

In fact I think that when we look back at Season two it might be a good idea to split it into two parts.

Season 2a goes from LEADER OF THE PACK to THE PRICE. With 20 solid episodes it continues to give us adventures in NYC, developing Season one plotlines, and expanding existing relationships.

Season 2b goes from AVALON 1 to HUNTERS MOON 3. With 32 solid episodes it moves beyond the realm of NYC and expands the Gargoyles Universe. We get further expanding of plot and relationships from Season 1 and Season 2a but also move into completely new territory.

In the first 33 episodes of the series the stories are about the Clan and their adventures in NYC with a stable cast of antagonist/villains. Its usually ultimately Xanatos, Demona, or Macbeth behind everything. Season 2b gives us a chance to break out of this and introduce completely new material while at the same time maintaining many links to NYC and the first half of the series. And this "third" season ends up doing all this and placing us back in NYC, refreshed and ready to move on to something else; the last 10 episodes change things considerably for the cast as a whole and moves things forward.

The main problem ultimately is that TGC, the real third season should have picked up on those Season 2b plotlines; then they wouldn't have seemed so throwaway and useless. They would have been the springboard for further growth. Instead we got stuff like RUNAWAYS and TO SERVE MANKIND and A BRONX TAIL. Good ideas twisted around and turned into boring, shallow Saturday Morning action. The 22 World Tour episodes feel stretched out and without resolution, weaker and throwaway because of that. With follow up the perception would probably have been completely different. The last 10 episodes of Season two were among the best of the series. But a few more episodes were needed for more balance. And TGC was supposed to be that. And it failed at it.



BUD-CLARE - You wrote: [*thinks of Ankh-Morpork, and snickers*]

:-) :-) :-)
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Thursday, August 29, 2002 08:10:16 PM
IP: 12.88.116.246

*collapses on the couch* Ugh. I've been out of town for the past week, and I'm tired. Bleh.

Jimmy> "How in any way does Hamtaro appeal to a male audience? I'm male, and I sure as hell feel no compunction whatsoever to watch it."
I'm female, and I actively avoid it.

Blaise> "After two and a half weeks of being homeless, I've finally managed to land myself an apartment!"
*hugs* Congratulations. :)

Airwalker> "(Once you live in NYC it really ruins you for living anywhere else. You'll spend all of your time comparing the place with where you are. :-)"
*thinks of Ankh-Morpork, and snickers*

matt> "as i got close i saw that the car was full of empty pill bottles and empty alcohol bottles and a dead man."
Gah. Seriously? Wow. I mean, I feel bad for the guy and all, but... wow. That must have been very surreal for you (and not in a good way, obviously).

*goes to find food and rest a bit after week-long ordeal*
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Thursday, August 29, 2002 07:30:09 PM
IP: 129.21.10.99

(sigh) What a week so far...very, very tired. I won't go into any details.

Matt> That is very, uh, umm...I just can't describe it in words. I've seen worse before, but seeing a dead guy in a car for a few days.... That'd definitely be in my top 3 most gruesome sights. I'd probably have trouble sleeping for a month.

Patrick> Isn't the Wizard of Oz in the top 10 all time favorite/best movies? It's just the same as having some character say something or act like someone from the GodFather movies too.

Vash> "Still no luck uploading the music video?" I haven't gotten the chance yet. Believe me, I'll post it here first thing after. :)

Golem> Not much to say about this one either. As I think Mooncat said a while ago, Brode was the only interesting mark on this episode which made the setup for "Turf." I'm afraid to admit there was small string of episodes in the World Tour which didn't interest me much and, this again, was one of them. The only things going for "Golem" were Brode and the religious (Hebrew) influences or legends which did make it somewhat interesting to watch.
Jim R.
Thursday, August 29, 2002 06:25:49 PM
IP: 208.17.68.22

Long time no see. A few words.

I think Disney with "Lilo and Stitch" is trying to break out from the box. Granted, this is a kids-oriented family company, and anything racy or suggestive would cause their stock and rep to be put in the mud. But Destiny's Child proved one thing in the last two years of their career, controversy sells.

I can't see for a reason, especially with nothing really interesting out there, why they wouldn't do it. "Gargoyles" was one of the oppertunites which they destoryed in Season Two when they got scared. Season one was the strongest, and perhaps the most exploratory of the show's two season run.

The last time I was here, I blasted a few of the key players for giving up way too soon. I'd like to extent an apology to Greg Weisman himself, because he didn't deserve that. He had no control over the end, and probably didn't want to leave after season two in the first place.

I suppose as a fan, one is entitled to the occasinally moment of fanaticism.

Anyhow,

I think now's the time for Disney to change. The CEO, the writers, everything. Get a new age, get some balls. Just my thoughts.

-matt

Matthew Milam - [ontheredline60610@yahoo.com]
Thursday, August 29, 2002 04:50:03 PM
IP: 67.36.177.142

:: peeks in ::

Eek! Did I type 2003 instead of 2002? :: severely thrashes the typo demons :: Serves me right for attempting to make a morning post B.C. (Before Coffee).

Greg B. - After hearing it in the script reading, I was just really disappointed when that moment on the tape came and Marina, reading as Demona, didn't get to say that line.

:: vanishes again ::
Patrick Toman
Thursday, August 29, 2002 12:31:26 PM
IP: 66.93.14.153

PATRICK> Well, that "Fly mr pretties" line was only in the Radio Play, it wasn't in the actual voice recording for the episode. I was listening and waiting for it.

I'll confess that I'm not much of a fan of the "Wizard of Oz", so I was relieved to hear that that line was not in the actual voice tape.
Greg Bishansky
Thursday, August 29, 2002 12:10:06 PM
IP: 216.179.6.39

Spacebabie > (JEM) I think that was the one where Jem was accused of some crime, and Stormer pulled this corny Deep Throat/trenchcoat and hat trick with Ashley's help to tell the cops what really happened. And Riot was the lead singer for the Stingers (Rio and Riot - god, what were they thinking?), and he was constantly hitting on Jem - sort of like Gaston and Belle, Jem was the only one as pretty as he was. (Jem was actually attracted to him, for some reason.)

Airwalker > (LILO & STITCH) After a string of substandard "traditional animations" that looked especially boring compared to Disney's computer-animated series (I'm one of those people who really thought Monsters, Inc. was better than Shrek), Lilo was a really cute movie, especially for the younger set, and is the first in a while to rise to the level of "A Bug's Life" or "Toy Story". Well, maybe not TS, but it was close.

Sincerely, Allaine

"I convinced them mosquitos were an endangered species." - Cobra Bubbles (Ving Rhames), Lilo and Stitch
Allaine - [eac2nd@yahoo.com]
Philadelphia, PA
Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:17:46 AM
IP: 64.12.96.138

I loved Jem as well, I also loved She-ra and My Little Pony. I still have all my ponies stored in a big cardboard box. I prefer playing with them than Barbie.
I remembered going to the theaters to see the movie and watching the TV series. Off course the two specials were the best.

The first one "Fireflys adventure" knocked my socks off as a kid, and the villians were AWSOME. One of them looked like a hairy gargoyle.

and the second one "Escape from Catrina" The main villian was a cat woman. She was cool. They all did have some talented voice acting. Nancy Cartwright was Gusty for example.

Allaine]----"(although Stormer had a redeeming side, thus beginning my long love affair with cartoon bad girls with a heart)." I liked Stormer too, I remembered she bodned with one of the orphans. I think her name was Ashley.
Ashley "The Misfits scare me."
Stormer "They scare me too"

Mooncat]----"The Stingers were my favorites." Didn't that one Stingers guy try to hit on Jericha? Or was it Jem? Or both?

Matt]---Dead guy. Now that is freaky.

Aaron]---"Why didn't the *real* Misfits (the punk band) sue living Hell out of whoever made that show?" I'm not too sure I thought the animated band spelled their name the Missfits cause they were women and Miss-fits? Of course I was wrong.

Airwalker]---"Now if I can only find some place that has it so I can get my hands on it!" I think we have it on tape…hey maybe you should come to the 2003 gathering .

Todd]---"Yow! The Gathering 2003 has already taken place?"
Whoa you were the last person I expected to make a joke about a typo.

Spacebabie - [LadyAndromeda@smstars.zzn.com]
Orlando, Florida, U.S.A
Thursday, August 29, 2002 10:45:26 AM
IP: 67.25.51.141

PATRICK - [Warning... this little comment will only make sense to anyone else who attended G2003 and saw the Radio Play.]

Yow! The Gathering 2003 has already taken place? How on earth did it happen so soon; did I unwittingly pull a Rip Van Winkle last night? :)

Seriously - that is an interesting question, Patrick. All that I can assume is that maybe management at Disney had changed its opinion on "Wizard of Oz" references between the two episodes.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, August 29, 2002 07:32:01 AM
IP: 63.208.63.130

Warning... this little comment will only make sense to anyone else who attended G2003 and saw the Radio Play.

I was watching "The Hound of Ulster" episode on Toon Disney last night before going to bed, and near the end, just before she transforms into the Death Worm, Banshee takes a verbal jab at the transformed Rory that ends with "... how to deal with a noisy hero, a his little dog, too!"

Yet in the never-completed "Team Atlantis" episode "The Last," they were made to drop a line that went "Fly, my pretties, fly!"

I don't get it. Is there a limit of one per career on blatant "Wizard of Oz" quips? Greg... maybe you can enlighten. I just found that line in "Hound" amusing. :)
And now back to your regularly scheduled S&P discussions.
Patrick Toman
Thursday, August 29, 2002 07:23:11 AM
IP: 67.38.249.169

This is something that I suddenly found myself thinking of this morning, and thought I'd bring up here - especially since it does have something of a bearing about our earlier S&P discussion.

You no doubt all recall that Greg's plans for the Illuminati were that their leader, Mr. Duval, was actually Sir Percival, the Fisher King or guardian of the Holy Grail. What I found myself wondering was whether that concept might not have met with some difficulty in the course of planning it out.

After all, the Holy Grail is traditionally a symbol of goodness and purity and virtue (especially in connection with its links to Christianity). On the other hand, Duval, its guardian, is to be portrayed as the head of a secret society that is engaged in a lot of decidedly unethical behavior (the Quarrymen, the Hotel Cabal, being organized crime's "silent partner", etc.). This raises the question as to whether this wouldn't produce some controversy here, over the Grail's custodian being portrayed as the leader of a corrupt organization; it'd be almost like portraying the Pope as the leader of the Mafia.

Of course, Greg indicated that Duval's had to pay a serious price for his actions in a way that indicates that the Grail hasn't approved of what he and the Illuminati have done (he didn't say what that price was, although based on what I know of the Grail legends, I suspect that it'd be the old incurable spear wound in the leg), but I still can't help but wonder if the concept could have had some serious controversy connected to it if "Gargoyles" had ever gotten far enough into the Illuminati arc that Greg could introduce that element of it.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, August 29, 2002 07:03:47 AM
IP: 65.56.174.81

SPACEBABIE - You wrote: [That sounds like the Enchanted Journey.]

Yeah, that's it! I did an info search for it and it does seem to fit what I remember. Now if I can only find some place that has it so I can get my hands on it!



JIMMY - You wrote: [Is it really so unreasonable to have dramatic shows on saturday morning?]

Its not unreasonable to want it. But realistically it isn't going to happen. Saturday Morning is one of those timeslots that is always going to be kept kid friendly to an extreme degree. Expecting high drama from it is a bit much.

Besides its not just about programming - its also about the tone of the day and the audience that can be gotten at that timeslot. People who are interested in drama (i.e. 17 and up) are more likely than not to be asleep at this time or at the very least only semi-conscious. :-) Not only that but drama is something that feels more like an afternoon to late night timeslot thing than it is for the morning. This isn't just on Saturday - it applies to any morning. Thats why we get most soap operas starting around 12 or 1 o'clock usually - who's going to watch something that dramatic :-) in the morning?

You wrote: [I think that if a good show is marketed well enough it has a good chance of surviving.]

Marketing helps but audience still has to show up; Saturday Morning isn't going to attract that much audience for drama no matter how much advertising is put into whatever show we are talking about. Marketing is half the battle - the other half is putting the show in a timeslot that will get it a stable audience.

You wrote: [I mean, the "X-Men" cartoon was way more continuity based that "Gargoyles" and just as dramatic, yet it was the highest grossing Saturday Morning Cartoon show of all time.]

X-Men has a built in audience to begin with; it doesn't have to compete as much as a show based on an original idea would have to.



PRINCESS ALEXANDRIA - You wrote: [I haven't watched any new cartoons. Are there any out there with decent animation and actual interesting plots? Or is it all aimed at five year olds now?]

Now and then you get a show that is aimed a little higher than the five year old audience. JACKIE CHAN ADVENTURES is pretty good. TARZAN isn't horrible although it isn't exactly something I'd write home about. I think that X-MEN (the teenage cult version) and STATIC SHOCK are still being shown although they were never my favorite shows; I never really watched them much. Otherwise its all five year old aimed. Particular ABC Disney.

Of course there is also Anime to consider - CN is showing tons of great shows and is working on bringing many more good ones over. And once in a while a good Anime makes its way to network TV. DIGIMON for example had its moments (although its much better in the Japanese; watch that version if possible - the dub on the first two seasons is torture).



MOONCAT - You wrote: [Batman Beyond was great, but it's over now.]

It had some good ideas here and there (loved the Mr. Freeze episode) but I couldn't stand the show; I just couldn't except that kid as the one true Batman successor. If they had played him as just being A BATMAN of the future rather than THE TRUE BATMAN of the future I might have been more willing to accept him. As it is it just bugs me to watch the show. (I'd rather see KINGDOM COME animated anyway :-) )



AARON - You wrote: [The trouble is, they didn't always market *just* to that demographic. Disney has, unfortunately, gotten caught up in "being the world's babysitter."]

I agree. Maybe it might be a good idea for them to get a seperate mature animation label for themselves so that they could keep the Disney brand name sanitized and still make money for other markets. They could really use some drama and fresh ideas in their animated works. (ATLANTIS would have been a great first step towards originality and fresh ideas except for the fact that it was basically 39 episodes of NADIA THE SECRET OF BLUE WATER pieced together by some committee.) They are able to do drama - GARGOYLES was their first dramatic TV series but they have done many dramatic animated films. It just hurts to see so much potential not being used.

You wrote: [How much time do you think Eisner has before he's ousted as CEO?]

Not much. I heard that they've already started talking about moving him out due to poor handling of ABC and of low themepark sales. But that could take forever. And there is no guarentee that his successor will be more creative and experimental in approach. Still one can hope....

You wrote: [One could substitute the words "at all" for "boldly".]

I put boldly because I had LILO AND STITCH in mind at the time. (Its not a bold idea but its not traditional and it was sort of creative; it was a step in the right direction following years of OVA sequels nobody wanted - anyone interested in CINDERELLA 2 or PETER PAN 2?)

And they did pick up the rights to all those Miyazaki films even if they have completely botched how they marketed PRINCESS MONONOKE. (But theatre marketing aside, they are still going to release them - at this point the excuse is that they are waiting for a Japan release which makes sense in light of their contract with Studio Ghibli; at least thats a subtle change from the "we'll release them eventually, maybe" appraoch they had before.)

They just need to start to take a risk or two again - and they have the tools to do so. TOON DISNEY and the various Disney Channels are there and they have perfect timeslots for experimentation. They just need someone to come in and shake things up a bit. They have been in a rut for a bit.

You wrote: [In a way, the Disney/WB situation reminds me of where Marvel/DC were about ten years ago]

It isn't a bad analogy; but its all really seasonal. Disney has a rut for a while and WB improves. But the WB is in a sort of POKEMON/YU-GI-OH rut at this point. We just haven't seen a major Disney leap right at this point. I think that it'll take some time but it'll happen - signs are pointing to another management shakeup at Disney and they have started to produce some interesting items here and there.

You wrote: [DC has a big chunk of the over-eleven comic buyers in America, and Marvel... is finally trying to play catch up. (Even if it is rather half-hearted)]

Now DC is in the rut; milking KINGDOM COME to eliminate Zero Hour isn't exactly what I'd call the best writing in the world. And I shouldn't mention it but - Krypto the Super Dog is actual continuity these days. What's next, Bat-mite?

Marvel isn't doing a great job but I can't really say that they are in a rut - this isn't the mid-90's Marvel glut we're dealing with anymore. I'm just not that interested in what they have to publish but that doesn't mean that they haven't improved or aren't putting out good stuff. I just lost interest over the years of crap, thats all.

You wrote: [Ah well, big changes should be coming to the American comicbook scene soon, yes indeed...]

What changes?
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Wednesday, August 28, 2002 11:19:39 PM
IP: 12.88.100.183

aaron> <<Why didn't the *real* Misfits (the punk band) sue living Hell out of whoever made that show?>>

A few reasons: a) at that time, the Misfits were underground and did not have much money b) The Misfits were defunct for 13 years until they reincarnated themselves without Danzig recently :/. So the show might have come on after '83 when they broke up.

Also, the Misfits took their name from the Marylin Monroe movie written by Arthur Miller; just like Black Sabbath took their name from the movie "Black Sabbath," and Hatebreed took their name from a Misfits song "Hatebreeders" etc. etc. So it would look really dumb on their part to claim originality on the name "The Misfits." Or what Mooncat said.

Matt> That's just plain messed up, dude O_o. I know when my parents owned a restaraunt near our house in Houston, there was a car parked out in the parking lot for two weeks before my parents finally called the cops. Turned out there was a dead body in the trunk the whole time.

RL> I got my first day of Spanish Tutoring tommorrow. From the way the students were reacting to the prof's dificulty level (I have to sit in the classes and do everything they do), I have a feeling I am going to have a jammed session :/ Don't know if that's good or bad, considering this is my first time at this.
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Wednesday, August 28, 2002 09:05:07 PM
IP: 66.169.212.157

Aaron -- because the Misfits, the band, didn't own the rights to the name. I'm not completely certain, but I think they may have tried, but found out they couldn't.

Major toy companies, like Hasbro and Mattel are VERY CAREFUL to check out if they can get legal rights for their doll names before they go into production. The show was based on the doll line.

Trademark rights on a name in one field may not carry over to the other. So while another band couldn't call themselves the Misfits, a toy or cartoon/comic character might, as long as the band didn't secure the rights in that particular field.

Mooncat
>^,,^<
Mooncat
pWednesday, August 28, 2002 04:46:40 PM
IP: 68.102.23.36

Matt> Battlebeasts rule! They allegedly had their own TV show for a season, but I never saw it. I still have a bunch of mine. <<Dead guy>> Dude, that's messed up.

Todd> <<some professor has just finished writing a book all about the origins of the various unusual beings in classical mythology, using all the "conventional explanations"... and then, just as it's about to get published, the New Olympians arrive and thereby unwittingly completely demolish his theories. Resulting in the professor showing a lot of hostility towards the New Olympians over having invalidated his research>> Hmm. Do you think we could get F. Murray Abraham to do a guest voice?

Airwalker> <<Disney has a kid friendly reputation to live up to; they have after all marketed to that demographic for their entire existence.>> The trouble is, they didn't always market *just* to that demographic. Disney has, unfortunately, gotten caught up in "being the world's babysitter." (Greg Wiseman G2K1) They've walled themselves into such a narrow little pigeonhole and bricked it up behind them... How much time do you think Eisner has before he's ousted as CEO?

<<Disney doesn't seem to either want to think or act boldly.>> One could substitute the words "at all" for "boldly".

In a way, the Disney/WB situation reminds me of where Marvel/DC were about ten years ago, when DC decided to take a chance and create their Vertigo line, and Marvel... decided to let half their talent go off to form Image, while glutting the market with derivative, low-quality super hero books that tried to make up what they lacked in originality with holofoil variant covers. The result: DC has a big chunk of the over-eleven comic buyers in America, and Marvel... is finally trying to play catch up. (Even if it is rather half-hearted)

Ah well, big changes should be coming to the American comicbook scene soon, yes indeed...

Jem and the Holograms> Not that I ever watched it, but something has always puzzled me. Why didn't the *real* Misfits (the punk band) sue living Hell out of whoever made that show?

Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
Wednesday, August 28, 2002 03:37:30 PM
IP: 66.136.50.96

boy, did i have a crazy day...

was mowing a lawn today and there was a car parked next to the grass. as i got close i saw that the car was full of empty pill bottles and empty alcohol bottles and a dead man. he commited suicide, turns out he'd been there a couple days. called cops and spent some time answering questions and all that. crazy stuff. it was pretty sad. the family had to come by and identify his body. he'd been sitting in a car in the heat for two days so you can guess how bad he must've looked and smelled. kinda depressing.

anyway, i won't depress all of you anymore than i already have.

sorry i rarely get time to post here anymore, busy schedule having two and a half jobs...

take care everybody...
matt
Wednesday, August 28, 2002 02:58:28 AM
IP: 207.230.48.72

I won my DEMONA CELS!!!!! I love eBay!!!!

=) =) =)

Now I only need one of Fox, one of Delilah, one of Angela and of Elisa... and one of Desdemona and of Robyn and of...

*blinks in horror* Oh my gawd... there's no end in sight!

*glances at scan of cel*

*kitty drool*

Fantastic!!!!

giddy with pure happiness
Mooncat
>^,,^<
Mooncat
Tuesday, August 27, 2002 09:20:54 PM
IP: 68.102.23.36

Oooo... Jem was my fave cartoon. I'm such a music freak. Idol singers are my great weakness. I liked different songs, from each of the groups.

Jem: "This Is One of Those Days" was a particular favorite.

The Misfits, "Designing Woman", "I Like Your Style" were my two favorites, followed by "Scandal" *^_~*

The Stingers: "Destiny", "Hard, Hard Life", Take It Or Leave It" -- The Stingers were my favorites. They were so good at being so bad.

I didn't mind the fluff. I loved the look of the characters and the music. *^_^* -- my first full fan fics revolved around JEM. I was in highschool when it was on, and I wrote to Christy Marx who basically created the Jem universe, and interviewed her. Christy was then, and is still my IDOL. When I grow up I want to be a writer for animation. =) =) =) =) =)

But before Jem there was GI Joe, and I loved it too. Sigh... the Baroness... Well, the rest of it was pretty good, but I was particularly fond of the Baroness. Nothing like a bad girl to make a good show great! Scarlet and Lady Jaye? feh... Zarana? eh... But the Baroness RULED =)

*glances up at the top of the computer screen, where toy Baroness figure sits on Catbert's lap, next to Poison Ivy figurine, and flanked by Xanatos pop up card*

Now if I only could find a decent, small Demona toy to put on my computer, and a small Mum-ra, and Harley, my computer shrine to villiany will be complete! Or, at the very least have run out of room. You can only fit so much on top of a 20 inch monitor. =( sigh...

Decent cartoons... today... uh... Japanese anime anyone? Batman Beyond was great, but it's over now. X-men Evolution has me hooked now, but not enough that I'll for go sleep if I'm up to the wee-est hours of the morning. I will tape it though. He-man looked, so so for plot, but love the new Evil-lyn design. Makes me contemplate freeing the classic re-issue figure I have out of it's plastic bubble. =)

MC
out of here!


Mooncat
Tuesday, August 27, 2002 07:37:38 PM
IP: 68.102.23.36

The cartoons of the eighties that were targeted to girls were mostly crap. Jem and the Holograms being the best of the bottom of the barrel. The music was the only thing saving it, not the fluffy music Jem sang, but the rocking Misfits songs.

The GI Joe cartoon was much better and dealt with more important issues. It was GI Joe that got me interested in the bad girls. I would watch every episode in the hopes that The Baroness would appear.

I haven't watched any new cartoons. Are there any out there with decent animation and actual interesting plots? Or is it all aimed at five year olds now?
Princess Alexandria - [princess_alex24@hotmail.com]
WA, USA
Tuesday, August 27, 2002 06:43:12 PM
IP: 134.39.229.28

Spacebabie > What, no Care Bears? ;)

At the risk of encouraging certain misapprehensions about my gender :D, I thought Jem was a classic. Those Misfits - they were such bad girls (although Stormer had a redeeming side, thus beginning my long love affair with cartoon bad girls with a heart).

Sincerely, Allaine
Allaine - [eac2nd@yahoo.com]
Philadelphia, PA
Tuesday, August 27, 2002 04:26:45 PM
IP: 205.188.208.9

Airwalker> Is it really so unreasonable to have dramatic shows on saturday morning? I think that if a good show is marketed well enough it has a good chance of surviving. I mean, the "X-Men" cartoon was way more continuity based that "Gargoyles" and just as dramatic, yet it was the highest grossing Saturday Morning Cartoon show of all time. (Pokemon might have dethroned it, but I'm not sure.) Is it just me or does it seem like the entire animation situation changed once "Pokemon" blew up? Damn you Pikachu! Damn you to HELL!!!
Jimmy
Tuesday, August 27, 2002 03:57:38 PM
IP: 172.163.218.159

I remeber battle beasts. Now can anyone remember these things my brother used to collect? They came in containers with litte trash bags and you put them in water. The puch disolves to reveal a little figure. I remember the villians were MUCH more interesting than the good guys. There was one good guy that was really cool looking though. It was like a robot crab.

and now its time for the other half to get nostalgic.
Strawberry shortcake
Rainbow Bright
Charmkins
My Little Pony
Jem and the Holograms
She-ra
Yeah what about us girls??? I wonder if She-ra might make comeback like her brother did. I enjoyed both shows. I remembered She-ra had a longer transformation sequence than He-man. It was like a magical girl anime. and Madame Razz was a hoot! Always crashing into trees. One thing that has bugged me to this day was why the heck was most of the Hord packaged with Masters of Universe and only the female villians with Princess of Power?

Golem]---I have only seen this episode once andsince it's not fresh in the noggin I can't coment on it this week.

Airwalker]---"Say anyone remember a 1980 cable special that was sort of like the Secret of Nimh but wasn't? :-)and it was the story of some sort of pet squirrel.that was told of the great outdoors by some sort of Bird"
That sounds like the Enchanted Journey. That was an anime about a chipmunk named Glieco or Geico((something like that)) who wanted to go live in the vast forest because he heard it from a pidgeon. I think that is what you are talking about.

Gaygoyle]---"Today is the first day of class, So I got soaking wet."
It was raining on my first day of class as well, but mostly it was raining First Semester students who didn't know where they were going and blocking up traffic.
Spacebabie - [LadyAndromeda@smstars.zzn.com]
Orlando, Florida, U.S.A
Tuesday, August 27, 2002 10:59:34 AM
IP: 67.25.53.133

TODD - You wrote: [Or of Brod as a possible parallel to Xanatos (admittedly, I don't see Brod as a true Xanatos-parallel, since he's an open criminal, which Xanatos isn't. More a parallel to Dracon - although here I'm probably being influenced in my assessment by "Turf").]

I can see some Xanatosian elements in his ability to think creatively; Dracon would have probably taken money instead of the airship. (Of course Dracon would be starting higher up the ladder than Brode; he has a good fortune already while Brode is just starting out - if Dracon needed a Hovercraft he'd just buy it.) But Brode still doesn't strike me as much more than an intelligent thug with power as a goal. Thats not even close in theme to Xanatos (although it does sort of sound like the comedy development version of Xavier).



TALEWEAVER - You wrote: [It has been my observation that independents take the risk while the big corporations fill in once the niche has been found. The decline of weekday animation has been more from the reduction of independent stations.]

Largely this is a point that I can agree with you on but I don't think that its as clear cut as that. Taking GARGOYLES as an example, it wasn't some experiment by an independent channel or some minor company. It was a Disney production even if they didn't label the final product as such. (Just as a side note - leaving the Disney name off of the show might not have just been to preserve the Disney reputation for fluffy kids shows but also to help out their first dramatic series - how many people would have taken it seriously if at the end of the opening credits when the logo saying GARGOYLES shows up it had in small letters above it "Disney's" GARGOYLES?)

You wrote: [In LA it was channel 13 (now part of UPN), channel 11 (now part of Fox), channel 9 (once a part of Disney) and channel 5 (now part of WB). There are still of few independents, but they are dwindling and I don't see that changing in the near future.]

In NYC it was channel 9 (now UPN), channel 5 (now FOX), and channel 11 (now WB). (Disney in the form of the Disney Afternoon hung around Channel 11 - now all thats left of it is a Sunday Morning repeat of Saturday Morning ABC lineup on UPN.) I agree that the loss of independent channels helped to kill of the weekday animation market - there just isn't a place to put anything on anymore even if any company decided to experiment and be creative. Only the WB even bothers anymore with weekday animation - UPN never had it, and FOX got rid of it in favor of court shows (and has now added a 5 and 6 o'clock news so those time slots are lost to any entertainment programming). So everything reverts to Saturday Morning where there is an expectation that animation should be on and Cable which is probably the only place left for any sort of flexibility in programming.

You wrote: [Each of the megacorps produces shows for its own outlets, there is less syndication. Fox makes shows for Fox, Disney makes it for the Disney Channel, and so on. I remember when Hanna-Barbara had shows on the three big networks, Disney too. Now it's shows only for their specific networks so it make diversity and risk taking even more problematic.]

Given the loss of independent channels this makes the problem worse. If Disney lets say wanted to produce something experimental, where are they going to put it? They can't exactly shop it around anymore. In the old days they were able to do that; now its either ABC or one of the various Disney Channels. They'd never consider nowadays taking one or two shows that might appeal to another audience to a place like CN for example.

You wrote: [I don't think the S&P are tighter solely because of parents' group. There is LOP (Least Objectionable Programming) at work here. Parents groups and other media critics deal with what is currently on the air. Often they have no knowledge or interest in what is being produced. Production is where the really decisions are made.]

I wasn't blaming parents groups for the rise in S&P and in the tightening of restrictions; I'm just saying in general that they have gotten tighter and would choke out a lot of creativity today. I pointed out HUNTERS MOON 3 as an example previously (and I noticed after I posted it that I had left out a kidnapping and a drugging of the leading lady from my list); how much of that could get done today off of CN? Thats how bad S&P has gotten.

I can be more understanding if we are talking about a Saturday Morning show since anything in that timeslot will tend to have to be geared for the much younger audience that is going to be watching or flipping through the channels. And since there basically isn't any weekday animation on anymore this becomes the only outlet and makes argument for a looser standard a moot point. But if there was more weekday animation then how is anything dramatic supposed to be dealt with if this Saturday standard is going to be applied across the board? Stuff like that entire "can't have the hero punch the screen and have it go red to black as they punch out opponent" is just silly. And thats just something minor.

The TEAM ATLANTIS example Todd gave a few posts back is even more alarming although it was going to be a Saturday Morning show so it shouldn't suprise me that much - but it sounded like it really would have been better off as weekday animation and having a weekday dramatic standard. Where is suspence and drama if S&P doesn't let you do anything? Would we really want to see a revived series on Saturday Morning with that sort of Saturday standard? Can you even have a dramatic series on Saturday Morning? Or should the intelligent thing be done and move such an project to a more flexible arena like Cable or OVAs? Or completely off TV altogether into the realm of radio plays and literature?

You wrote: [As I see it, the problems that need to be resolved is to have independents with access to resources and outlets to take risks.]

If this is the only way then there is no way; independents have basically died out. And its going to be a very long time if ever for them to make a comeback. Network television is becoming dead to animation in terms of creativity and just in the plain terms of being able to have it shown anywhere outside of Saturday Morning. I think now that the final frontier for animation series that aren't 3 year old oriented Saturday morning kids shows is Cable. Thats the last place that can be tapped for anything that could be intelligent and dramatic. We'd still have the problem being that the various companies can't shop their shows around to other channels but with the vast amount of time at their disposal they could always put those shows on in non traditional timeslots on their own stations. Disney has an entire evening and late night time slot on all of its various channels that is largely being wasted and could be used on dramatic animation productions. Stuff like TEAM ATLANTIS in the range of 8 PM ands stuff like GARGOYLES (and/or its spinoffs) in the range of 9-12 PM would be daring and interesting to see and could be done. Its not like Disney doesn't have the time and place for it on Cable - it could even put them in good competition with CN.

You wrote: [Toon Disney is starting up, but look at Disney Channel. It shows mostly original content. Cartoon Network is nearing that climax state. They show more Cartoon cartoons than reruns. I suspect in the next year or so, Toon Disney will make a foray into new episodes to.]

I believe so. The problem is what original programming they would try to tackle? TOON DISNEY at this point is a younger kids oriented channel with tight standards (look at the edits that have been done to GARGOYLES as an example although it is still better than any Saturday Morning Network standard - they are showing most of the series largely untouched; HUNTERS MOON 3 since its still my main example, is unedited with everything I mentioned intact). I think that when they finally do head into the realm of original programming that they aren't going to head towards anything new-ish - meaning not head towards anything dramatic or experimental. Which would be a big disappointment.



FAN - You wrote: [It's also interesting that neither Angela or Elisa realized it either. Wouldn't that make them dense, too, if no one figured out what Avalon was doing until much later?]

I'm not sure that there had been enough trips before GOLEM for Goliath and Company to really realize that there was purpose to their destinations. SHADOWS OF THE PAST can't count since everyone (and particularly Goliath) was distracted by the atmosphere and nostalgia as well as the attack by the ghosts. HERITAGE again had the agitating topics for Goliath as well as Elisa going missing so it would tend to keep them all occupied and from thinking about whats really behind all these destinations. MONSTERS is similier in dynamic to HERITAGE. But in GOLEM they finally have a moment to rest and think about everything for a minute; thats why it occurs to them there.

They also have an opportunity to get home and that more than anything would prompt reflection of the various travels, something that they didn't have as an option prior to this point. I don't think that the "Avalon has purpose, really its not just jerking us around" revelation could have come later. This is the deciding point, particularly when Renard offers help.

(I also think that largely Goliath and Elisa (and Angela although I'm not sure that she might have been thinking about it so much at this point - I think that she might have just been having more fun just seeing more of the world) come across the "we have to make this Oddessy" revelation at the same time and that it isn't just that Goliath has figured it out first. He's just the one to state what they've all figured out loud.)
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Tuesday, August 27, 2002 09:58:38 AM
IP: 12.88.92.240

Todd><And I was pleased (in retrospect, at least)that Goliath comes to realize here that Avalon has a purpose for them that they must carry out; it would have made him look much too dense if he kept on failing to realize it much longer.> That's an interesting point. It's also interesting that neither Angela or Elisa realized it either. Wouldn't that make them dense, too, if no one figured out what Avalon was doing until much later? Wasn't there 3 or 4 episodes between the "Avalon" trilogy and "Golem"? If that's true, I don't think it took "that" long for Goliath to finally understand.
Fan
Tuesday, August 27, 2002 01:57:22 AM
IP: 216.160.98.179

Hi all,
Boy I've got a lot of catch up reading to do. I'll make comments on "Golem" later this week, but I saw the tail-end of the discussion on weekday cartoons and thought I'd chime in.

Weekday Cartoons> I think there is one more thing to consider about the state of animation. It's something I've noticed about the entertainment industry in general. It has been my observation that independents take the risk while the big corporations fill in once the niche has been found. The decline of weekday animation has been more from the reduction of independent stations. The past decades have seen corporations merge and squeeze out the independent outside voice doing their own thing. Looking back on the mid to late 80's in weekday animation, all the risks were taken by the syndicated stations. In LA is was channel 13 (now part of UPN), channel 11 (now part of Fox), channel 9 (once a part of Disney) and channel 5 (now part of WB). There are still of few independents, but they are dwindling and I don't see that changing in the near future.

Another problem isn't just gobbling up of stations, but access to the programming. Each of the megacorps produces shows for its own outlets, there is less syndication. Fox makes shows for Fox, Disney makes it for the Disney Channel, and so on. I remember when Hanna-Barbara had shows on the three big networks, Disney too. Now it's shows only for their specific networks so it make diversity and risk taking even more problematic.

I don't think the S&P are tighter solely because of parents' group. There is LOP (Least Objectionable Programming) at work here. Parents groups and other media critics deal with what is currently on the air. Often they have no knowledge or interest in what is being produced. Production is where the really decisions are made.

As I see it, the problems that need to be resolved is to have independents with access to resources and outlets to take risks.

Regarding the cable channels, I see each going through its own evolution. In the beginning, they show mostly reruns of old shows to get an audience. In the middle, they experiment with different formats. I don't know how many remember Nickeloden or Sci-Fi from the beginning, but they went through a number of bombs before they found a few hit. Then they reach a sort of climax state where they stick with what works and change only to keep up. Toon Disney is starting up, but look at Disney Channel. It shows mostly original content. Cartoon Network is nearing that climax state. They show more Cartoon cartoons than reruns. I suspect in the next year or so, Toon Disney will make a foray into new episodes to.

Well, that's enough ranting from me. Hope to talk soon.

Bye
Taleweaver - [loremaster27@hotmail.com]
Monday, August 26, 2002 08:39:45 PM
IP: 24.205.127.206

By an odd coincidence, I had my tape of "Golem" out this morning and watched it - not because it was next on the "Gargoyles" DVCs, but rather because it was next on my "Gargoyles summer review" list (I like to watch each of the "Gargoyles" episodes in order over the course of the summer). So the episode's still fresh in my memory as I write my own comments on it.

Actually, I don't have a whole lot to say about it, I'll confess; I liked the episode, but it never seems to have provoked that many comments and observations from me, as opposed to some of the other episodes. Still, I'll include what I can here.

Of course, I'd also noticed the Golem's parallel to the gargoyles as a protector-figure, and one "of stone" at that; I hadn't caught the notion of Max Loew being a parallel to Elisa, though, until just now. Or of Brod as a possible parallel to Xanatos (admittedly, I don't see Brod as a true Xanatos-parallel, since he's an open criminal, which Xanatos isn't. More a parallel to Dracon - although here I'm probably being influenced in my assessment by "Turf").

I liked the return of Renard, and his further development. I quickly picked up on the significance of "It's not my fault" (actually, that's a pretty significant line in "Gargoyles" in general, beyond just the Goliath-Renard business - look at the impact that such an attitude has on Demona and Jon Canmore/Castaway, for example). Like some, I thought that Renard's realization that what he did was wrong came a little too quickly, but Greg's pointing out that he knew deep down inside all along that what he was doing was wrong does help out here.

One favorite part of mine that wasn't mentioned in Greg's ramble: the bit where Bronx nudges himself against Janus (the old man who was helping Max Loew - he was called Janus, I recall, in the ending credits), and Janus starts scratching him behind the ears. That struck me as a cute scene.

And I was pleased (in retrospect, at least)that Goliath comes to realize here that Avalon has a purpose for them that they must carry out; it would have made him look much too dense if he kept on failing to realize it much longer. Of course, that definitely makes "Golem" a turning point in the Avalon World Tour.

Sorry that I had so little to say here; I know that I've got more to say, however, regarding "Sanctuary" (which is up next).
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, August 26, 2002 06:51:47 PM
IP: 63.208.61.229

JIMMY - You wrote: [I agree, thats why I think they should create another label for more mature themed animation.]

Its not a bad idea but I'm not so sure that they really need one. Its not like they don't produce experimental material under their usual Disney banner; they just don't market it under the Disney name.

Still it is an idea that might be worth exploring; I think though that they would be better off devoting such an angle towards developing a fresh TV/Cable Channel that would produce the fresh animation rather than just a department that would create random new mature themed animation projects that would have to be shopped around to various networks.

You wrote: [You forgot to mention the Family Channel.]

Cause I forgot about them. :-) The Family Channel barely registers on my TV viewing radar usually. In fact the only reason I even bother with any Disney Channel (specifically TOON DISNEY) is just to occasionally watch GARGOYLES. Otherwise I head over to CN.

You wrote: [It seems to me that since most of ABCFamily's children's lineup seems to be reruns of old children's shows, it is pretty ripe for a dramatic change. After all, why have two channels devoted solely to reruns?]

True. At least one of them should be producing new material although I think the logic of the Family Channel is for people who don't watch the ABC Saturday aired version to have the opportunity to see it there. Still it might be a good idea to rotate those ABC shows to TOON DISNEY so that they can still devote themselves to reruns (sort of like how Boomerang covers most old reruns for CN) but still have something kids oriented and new-ish to show in the afternoon and evening.

It would be nice to have one Disney Channel devote itself to producing material aimed at a slightly older audience. Disney has the power and potential to produce something good if they put some effort into it. (GARGOYLES is proof of that.) And they don't have to involve the Disney brand name in anything - they can leave it off or just bury it in the end credits. It seems like such a waste that they are just wasting time with endless OVA sequels to their original movies; did we really need Peter Pan 2 for example? For all that they could have easily created a block of interesting shows (TEAM ATLANTIS, GARGOYLES and/or any of its spinoffs) that would have gotten them if not a spectacular audience then at least a solid and dedicated one. (Solid and dedicated tend to be the ones willing to invest more of their money and time into it although I don't want to sound like I'm writing off the casual and semi-casual viewers - they are important too.)



GREG - You wrote: [The episode was written and story edited by Gary Sperling. Gary selected this episode, because he felt he had an affinity for the subject matter and because his brother, a Rabbi, was able to advise him on things like the Hebrew, etc.]

The episode did really feel very well researched and had a good air to it; it felt like it carried as close to the original legend as it could while still allowing for the changes of being introduced into a seperate piece of fiction. I felt it was very well done. (I also have a deep interest in the Golem legend in general so the episode did captivate me - particularly the flashback/dream where the Golem first comes on line.)

You wrote: [But I tell you, recording some of that Hebrew was a bitch.]

I can imagine. :-) But it was worth the effort; it added to the situation - it just wouldn't have felt the same to have him put the lines out in English or in Latin. It was also good to see that magic in general doesn't have to be limited to just one classical language. Usually anytime magic is introduced it either has to be in rhyming English or in Latin as if those are the only two ways that Magic could ever work.

In fact if Hebrew is also a language for magic then what about some of the other languages that date back to ancient times? Could Chinese do as well? And since Hebrew, unlike Latin, is a language that has been revived and is in everyday use, can magic be done in Modern Hebrew as well? I remember it being mentioned that it would be very difficult to conduct magic in everyday English (unless it was rhyming and even then it would be difficult) but would there be much less trouble with Modern Hebrew usage?

You wrote: [I love most of the backgrounds on this episode. Very striking and atmospheric.]

The animation was wonderful; very realistic. In fact my main problem with the episode really was the design of the Golem itself. In terms of height and strength (and invulnerability) it fit all the requirements but in terms of design it just felt off. It didn't seem like a design that a Medieval Rabbi would go for. It seemed much too formless and not humanoid enough. The way the classical legend goes the Golem was more Andre the Giant-ish in design, even able at times to pass for an actual human being.

The formless nature in the Golem design was appealing but it may have been stretched a bit too far; It was way too much like a lump of clay that had been rush carved when in the actual legend Rabbi Loew put some thought and effort into it. (Even in the actual episode its sort of implied that he's put time and effort into his creation; even with the threat outside his window it would be madness to send a Golem that wouldn't be ready to be used because if it happened to fail in action the consequences would be even worse than if it didn't show up at all.

Still I could accept it if the design reasoning came out as him rushing it out to deal with the mob and not having more time to work on a more humaniod design. But just personally I would have prefered it in a more Humaniod design and dimension - although it was fitting that it be much larger in size and girth than Goliath.)

You wrote: [I think it shows something in Renard that he's able to give Vogel a second chance.]

True. Although if we think about it who else exactly does Renard really have to turn to? His wife divorced him, his daughter isn't exactly trustworthy, and all his other major employees abandoned him. Vogel is repentent and is still willing to remain - and if Renard is willing to compromise on his path to the Golem then he might just be as willing to compromise on the subject of Vogel and his OUTFOXED betrayal. (Besides even though he betrayed him, he did betray him to his daughter; so he was keeping it in the family so to speak which might incline him more towards forgivness than he would have if he had betrayed him to a stranger. Besides if he could so easily forgive (or at least overlook) Fox's role in the entire thing (he wasn't angry at her at the end of OUTFOXED after all) then why hold a grudge against Vogel?)

You wrote: [And I like how tough and fearless Brod is. And also how outside-the-box he is in his thinking.]

True. Even in TURF he's thinking outside the box. After all who would consider to break into a prison just to eliminate the competition? Most people would work on the goons and organization on the outside. (I wouldn't be suprised if his prison time with Dracon led to some allience between them; after all they have mutual interests and enemies that they could work on together. But he does feel like he would make a great European Dracon for PENDRAGON rather than sticking around NYC. Did he even bother to get citizenship? Isn't it possible that he'd be more likely to get deported than to get a full term in prison?)

You wrote: [Here, and for the last time until probably "Ill Met by Moonlight" and "Future Tense", the focus is still on GETTING HOME.]

I felt that after this episode that because they moved away from the constant "This isn't NYC so lets be upset and head back to Avalon" angst that the quality of the World Tour improved considerably. Thats not to say it was inferior before this point - those were good episodes. But the constant "we want to go home and these adventures are inconviences" set a tone that most of what they are doing is getting in the way rather than that they are important to the characters and the overall story. After this point when they finally accept being on an Oddessey and don't complain about it so much they let the adventures and various elements take over and boost interest. (And when the "we want to go home" element does return around ILL MET BY MOONLIGHT it just feels right because that was their original goal after all and however interesting and fun adventures are, they do want to go home.)

You wrote: [I also like Elisa and Max's little exchange at the beginning.]

Loved that. Yet another line that further solidifies Elisa's NYC personality - I can say as a New Yorker that once your out of the city that this is what you tend to spend the rest of your time looking for. :-) (Once you live in NYC it really ruins you for living anywhere else. You'll spend all of your time comparing the place with where you are. :-) )

You wrote: [Max was consciously designed to parallel Elisa.]

When you point it out it does seem obvious. But I didn't really notice it at the time; I think that his more passive nature keeps it from being obvious to begin with. He is after all being pushed into doing everything; he only starts to take the initiative at the end when the battle finally came to him in the form of Renard-Golem beating up Angela and Bronx. Elisa by contrast is more assertive from the very beginning (of the series and in the episode in particular).

You wrote: [Renard as the Golem is corrupted rather rapidly (if shallowly) by his newfound power.]

Liked that although it did appear to happen way too quickly. I chalk that up to the time constraints of a 22 minute episode but if there had been more time to work with it would have been nice to have him argue more with Goliath after he took over the Golem rather than just outright attack him.

(I also liked how this tied into the overall bottom line of the Golem in general - it eventually does become a threat even to those who it protects and who guide it. Its soulless nature makes it inevitable that it would eventually become dangerous to everyone; thats the main reason that Golems usually get shut down in most of the legends - they are at most temporary solutions to the problems that they were created to deal with.)

You wrote: [I'm sure some people thought Renard's turn-around was too sudden.]

Again it didn't bother me because it felt more like the stronger moral nature of the character was reasserting itself rather than just being an instant change of mind. Still it would have been nice to have a few extra minutes to play with there too - a little more time would have helped make it seem more organic a change in direction. It was mainly the time constriction that made it look a bit rushed.

You wrote: [I'm also reminded here of the end of "Awakening, Part Five" when Goliath is holding Xanatos and on the verge of dropping him to his death. Elisa and Hudson talk him out of it. And Max fulfills the same function for the Golem. And I love Max's line, which is traditional: "Love Justice and Do Mercy." So simple and eloquent. So right.]

I loved how that tied into the original legend. Without guidence the Golem isn't evil but it isn't exactly inclinded to be a do-gooder either. It is inclinded again due to its soulless nature to eventually become destructive. I loved how the Golem was basically going to kill Brode, not out of anything personal or due to any order, but just because that was the eventual inclination it would have without strong guidence from a highly moral and confident person.

(Even with Guidence its inclinded to become destructive - its sort of a struggle of will for the Golem's master to control it and in the end its always going to be a losing proposal. Thats why the Golem form is usually destroyed in the legends - to reduce the temptation to revive it and thus revive the threat. (Also its to take away the temptation to play around with life/magic/will of God, all depending on your personal point of view - breathing life into nothing with some words can be a dangerous thing.)

Even guidence from a highly moral and confident person won't be enough in the end; its sort of a tragic angle for Max in comparison to the situation that Elisa is in with Goliath. She can't lose in her friendship and he can't win. (He's sort of an anti-Elisa but in a good way. :-) )

You wrote: [I think, had we not had to air so many damn reruns during the original run of the Tour in winter/spring of 1996, the audience would have been much more patient after this episode.]

The reruns didn't bug me at the time since it gave me the opportunity to put the series on tape. (I hadn't had a chance to record it up to that rerun point.) But the reruns in general didn't help - the World Tour really felt like it was going to go on forever. (I think that if there had been a few more post World Tour but pre TGC episodes that it might have balanced out a bit. It feels long not just due to reruns but due to the short amount of time we get back in NYC before the series basically comes to an end.)
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Monday, August 26, 2002 06:49:31 PM
IP: 12.88.116.230

Rambled on Monday, August 26, 2002 04:24:55 PM
Chapter XXXXI: "Golem"

Time to Ramble...

This episode was directed by Frank Paur and was really based on an idea of his that pre-dated the introduction of Renard in "Outfoxed".

The episode was written and story edited by Gary Sperling. Gary selected this episode, because he felt he had an affinity for the subject matter and because his brother, a Rabbi, was able to advise him on things like the Hebrew, etc. (But I tell you, recording some of that Hebrew was a bitch.)

-----

I love most of the backgrounds on this episode. Very striking and atmospheric.

-----
RENARD & CO.

My eight-year-old daughter Erin spotted Renard, and immediately recognized him as "Fox's father." I think Robert Culp does a great job with Renard. And (futzing aside) with the Golem as well.

Vogel's back with no explanation or indication that he fell out of favor. I guess Goliath's speech to Renard at the end of "Outfoxed" carried real weight. I think it shows something in Renard that he's able to give Vogel a second chance.

And Renard's other compatriot is Brod. A new gangster of the new Eastern-European school. I can't remember if I already had plans to pit Brod against Dracon. But I liked the contrast between them. And I like how tough and fearless Brod is. And also how outside-the-box he is in his thinking. He'd rather have the hovercraft than a cash payment. He sees the advantage.

Goliath spots Renard (and vice versa). Renard isn't pleased, cuz he knows he's doing wrong and doesn't need a reminder that he used to lecture people on integrity.

Goliath IS pleased, initially, because he sees Renard as a potential ride home. Here, and for the last time until probably "Ill Met by Moonlight" and "Future Tense", the focus is still on GETTING HOME.

But for Renard, the focus is on living. ("Integrity is a luxury I can no longer afford.") Goliath is stunned. He calls Renard someone "I thought I knew."

-----

There's some nice climbing here. Just visually, the way the gang climbs up the bridge. The way Angela and Bronx climb up the tower. The way Bronx later climbs down. I just think it's cool.

-----
ELISA & MAX and GOLIATH & THE GOLEM

I also like Elisa and Max's little exchange at the beginning.

Max: What are you looking for?
Elisa: New York.

Max was consciously designed to parallel Elisa. And she at least, notices the connection. When she says "The Golem needs you as much as you need it." I think she's thinking about her relationship to Goliath. (It may be a touch arrogant, but it's accurate too.)

He's the human ally and advisor (sometimes guide or even conscience) to a protector made of stone and clay. The parallels of Golem to Gargoyle are obvious, and the main reason why I felt we HAD to do this episode. (Probably the main reason why Frank suggested it in the first place.) I love how Keith read: "So this Golem is a protector." Goliath likes the whole idea. It's almost sweet in a way.

Max is just less confident than Elisa ever was: "What if it doesn't like me?" I don't think Elisa ever worried about that, at least not after she learned that Goliath could talk.

Elisa actually has a bunch of fun lines here:

"Hit it, Bronx!"
"Don't worry. We're the Good Guys!"
"...And you get used to the weirdness..."


----

I like how the Renard/Golem turns the lamp-post into a pretzel. But on my tape, he smashes a car that was already smashed. Did that get corrected for later airings?

I also thought it was a nice touch when he knocked over Edgar Blosa's tombstone. I know that was an homage to some movie. Maybe an Ed Wood film? But now I'm blanking out.

-----

POWER-DRUNK/POWER-SOBER

Renard as the Golem is corrupted rather rapidly (if shallowly) by his newfound power. That was the idea. That a man who had been trapped in the prison of his own body would get flat-out drunk on the freedom and strength that the Golem offered: "Instant respect. I could get used to this."

But like any high, one eventually comes down.

And Elisa is the first to start to sober him up. "You're enjoying this!" she yells. It stops him. Cuz he is. But cuz he's not so far gone that he shouldn't know better. He flees. Not because anyone has yet provided an adequate threat. He's really running from himself. But that translates to: let me just get out of here.

Renard actually says, "It's not my fault!" which of course was the one phrase that used to drive him crazy.

Goliath has a great comeback: "A weak body is no excuse for a corrupt spirit." That's classic Goliath, I think.

I love the close up shot of the Renard/Golem looking over his shoulder, weighing it all. Wondering what his alternative is beyond accepting his fate, i.e. his death by whatever disease was killing him.

And I love Goliath's next follow up too: "You've given up all you believe in... for a piece of clay."

I'm sure some people thought Renard's turn-around was too sudden. But between Elisa, Goliath and some well-chosen words from Max ("Can you live with yourself"), and Renard's basic decency, I have no problem accepting it when he finally says, "What have I become?"

------

THE FINAL BATTLE

Elisa really rocks in this episode I think. That may have been the thing I most noticed in this viewing. I don't think of this as one where she was particularly featured, but she really does great. I love her little "Hi there." close up moment before she decks the bad guy with a punch that comes right into camera and flashes red. (Of course, I doubt you could do that these days.)

I like all the stuff with Golem and the hovercraft.

I'm also reminded here of the end of "Awakening, Part Five" when Goliath is holding Xanatos and on the verge of dropping him to his death. Elisa and Hudson talk him out of it. And Max fulfills the same function for the Golem. And I love Max's line, which is traditional: "Love Justice and Do Mercy." So simple and eloquent. So right.

In any case, I guess that makes Brod the Xanatos of Prague. Except clearly he didn't fare as well. The Golem's appearance must have convinced him to seek out new "Turf", if you know what I mean.

-----

THE WORLD TOUR

Finally, Goliath has learned something from all Max's talk about destiny and making choices. He finally realizes that Avalon isn't simply messing with them. But that there is purpose and need and destiny. He could choose to skip it. He could hitch a ride with Renard back to Manhattan. But he won't run away. So instead he'll take the Skiff.

Now the World Tour can finally start in earnest. Sure, the audience still wonders when and if the quartet will ever get home. But I think the tenor of it changes now. Now there's an expectation. I think, had we not had to air so many damn reruns during the original run of the Tour in winter/spring of 1996, the audience would have been much more patient after this episode. Like Goliath, they would have understood.

Elisa makes the same choice. Although for her, it's less about quests and destiny than about abandoning her friends: "You guys would be lost without me." And again, kidding or not, there's a certain arrogance. But a lot of accuracy as well.

-----

Anyway, that's my Ramble. Where's yours?
Greg Weisman
Monday, August 26, 2002 04:32:21 PM
IP: 67.219.66.177

Airwalker>
[Disney has a kid friendly reputation to live up to]
I agree, thats why I think they should create another label for more mature themed animation.

[either bring around a new Disney Channel, reshape the existing Disney Channel Timeslots, or rework TOON DISNEY in some manner.]
You forgot to mention the Family Channel. I saw them playing the X-Men cartoon (the 90's one) a few saturdays ago. It seems to me that since most of ABCFamily's children's lineup seems to be reruns of old children's shows, it is pretty ripe for a dramatic change. After all, why have two channels devoted solely to reruns?




Jimmy
Monday, August 26, 2002 03:50:06 PM
IP: 172.138.99.210

*enters soaking wet with dreds that won't dry til the end of the day*

11th.

You know, this sucks. Today is the first day of class, and I have no parking permit since I live a hop and skip away; so it rained today...really hard and I have no umbrella. So I got soaking wet. Not only that, but I locked myself out of my own bathroom this morning; and I had to kick the door open. To top off, I missed the top ten. I haven't even looked to see if my books got soaked. Grrrrrrrrr. At least my Phenomenology class is today :D. That's what's keeping my going.

*leaves, with a wet spot on the CR couch.*
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Monday, August 26, 2002 09:18:10 AM
IP: 129.120.35.51

Ten! *whew!*
Lurking Fish
Monday, August 26, 2002 02:34:23 AM
IP: 65.92.90.243

Oooo, ninth!
ColdFire
Monday, August 26, 2002 02:08:14 AM
IP: 24.78.133.4

I claim 8th in the name of the Fay!

MOONCAT
>^,,^<
Mooncat
Monday, August 26, 2002 02:06:25 AM
IP: 68.102.23.36

Seventh ** 7th **

In Case You Didn't Catch it::: Seventh.
Princess Alexandria - [princess_alex24@hotmail.com]
WA, USA
Monday, August 26, 2002 02:01:49 AM
IP: 64.91.48.45

6th!



JIMMY - You wrote: [But I think it could still be a viable medium if only some company would get the balls to contend with WB.]

The problem isn't just limited to what the other companies can make in order to compete - the nature of where they can put it has changed completely. In the Weekday timeslots the only two that can even come close to trying to compete with WB are FOX and UPN. UPN has more of a commitment to talk shows in that time period (they're probably the only competition with Oprah in that 4 PM time slot) so they aren't ideal for animation. So that leaves only FOX. And they were competing with the WB in animation until recently; and they were failing miserably doing it. The only thing that kept them going was POWER RANGERS and that wasn't animated. Now they seem to have abandoned the competition outside of Saturday Morning.

You wrote: [Meanwhile, the other companies such as Fox, Disney, etc. have notions that exposing kids to any amount if realism will emotionally scar them or something.]

Disney has a kid friendly reputation to live up to; they have after all marketed to that demographic for their entire existance. And they aren't exactly anxious to through that audience away. (They tend not to label any of their experimental stuff or stuff that wouldn't fit that Disney image with the Disney logo. GARGOYLES was never called or labeled in the opening sequence as Disney's GARGOYLES. If you wouldn't watch the end credits (and I mean the real end of the end credits) then you'd never have a clue that they were the company that created it.)

The problem is that Disney, even if it were to continue to experiment and work with new shows, either GARGOYLES revived or a spinoff or even something else completely, they just don't have the place to put it. The only outlets that exist at this time are either Cable or Saturday Morning - unless they are willing to have some other network show it (and they usually aren't for a lot of solid, sound reasons). The situation is completely different on TV now from what it was in the mid to late 1990's.

You wrote: [Everyone is afraid to challenge Time-Warner who has a stranglehold on animation of all sorts.]

I think that they would challenge them if they could but they don't have the outlet for it; ABC on weekdays is Soap Opera territory - and thats not an audience thats going to be dumped so that Disney can put animation on. (As for FOX they did try to challenge WB with DIGIMON and they did do alright with it on Saturday Morning; but they didn't have the same success on weekday afternoons - otherwise they wouldn't have more or less eliminated animation if favor of various court shows.) Most of the competition in the animation field has shifted back to Saturday Morning and to Cable completely. Saturday Morning isn't going to have high drama anytime soon so that only leaves Cable as a real outlet for competition and creativity. And its there that only CN is taking the field; Disney doesn't seem to either want to think or act boldly. (On the one hand I can understand it - why risk a solid traditional audience that old Disney reruns brings in on TOON DISNEY? But on the other hand the future is competition with CN for an older audience seeking action and drama and they aren't doing anything about it.)

You wrote: [The other guys aren't willing to make the necessary changes to be able to contend with Time-Warner.]

In terms of adapting in the Cable market, I can agree. But on the network front there isn't much that can be done; Saturday Morning isn't the place for massive experimentation. Thats a place for well known young kids formulas like Marvel Heroes, Pokemonish Anime, and 4 year old oriented Disney comedies. And their isn't any area for any sort of weekday animation to take place in; so all we have left is Cable where they are taking their damn sweet time about starting to adapt. (I think that adaption is inevitable so this slow approach to it upsets me more than it should; they are going to have to either bring around a new Disney Channel, reshape the existing Disney Channel Timeslots, or rework TOON DISNEY in some manner.) Unless some way can be found to revive weekday afternoon animation which I don't think can be done (at least not for years; it just died so its needs some time before the idea can really be revived) then Cable really is the only option to consider.

You wrote: [Weekday animation could be revived if only someone would get the balls to take a chance, despite the fact that so many kids "have better things to do" these days.]

More kids than you might think are watching TV; the problem is that they aren't finding anything interesting on to begin with so they abandon it to go outside towards the, ugh.... natural light. :-) Its a vicious circle - no older viewers helps lead to dumbed down programming which keeps those older viewers out. After all Anime has been growing in the past decade as the Network Animation field has been shrinking and dying - there has to be some connection. If they can't find what they are looking for on TV then they'll either go outside or switch to Cable. And since Cable doesn't always have anything on (100 Channels and I still can't find a damn thing to watch!) they could head off towards the OVA/DVD realm. (OVAs could possibly be the only real alternative to Cable for animation. Maybe animation revival could lead to a change in the market; without Weekday Afternoons or Cable they might head directly to video/DVD.)

Tighter S&P doesn't help things along either; I was just watching HUNTERS MOON 3 so I'll use it as an example - we'd never get someone fall to their death from a major landmark (Charles Canmore in the Paris Flashback) followed by a major NYC building being blown up, followed by the main character running off to try and kill the people who did it, followed by the leading lady appearing to fall to her death and drown, followed by a pretty well stated plan to commit genocide, followed by a pretty well illustrated battle where the main hero is literally stopped moments before he was about to slowly gut his opponent, followed finally by the main, sort of reformed villain getting permanently crippled. What S&P would let that on today? (I think that on Cable it could be with the exception of blowing up the NYC building.) But this would be impossible for Weekday Afternoon (even if a place were found) today and definetly out for Saturday Morning. The S&P for Saturday Morning on any channel would leave maybe three lines not crossed out from the entire script.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Monday, August 26, 2002 01:01:23 AM
IP: 12.88.90.169

<ENTER LORD SLOTH>
Like 5 eh?
Now I'm going to bed too.
<EXIT LORD SLOTH>
Lord Sloth
Monday, August 26, 2002 12:14:12 AM
IP: 216.209.138.43

4th...
Now it is bed time
Spacebabie - [LadyAndromeda@smstars.zzn.com]
Orlando, Florida, U.S.A
Monday, August 26, 2002 12:11:07 AM
IP: 216.148.246.70

Third! ^^
Lady Baltimore
MD, USA
Monday, August 26, 2002 12:07:32 AM
IP: 67.242.145.215

Guess Me #2. Wooo! *bows to Knox*
Wingless
Monday, August 26, 2002 12:02:00 AM
IP: 24.43.42.78

FIRST!!! :)
Knoxville - [knox@ketnar.org]
Monday, August 26, 2002 12:01:09 AM
IP: 208.54.204.248