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The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending December 16, 2002

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TODD - You wrote: [I've got to admit that I find it particularly ironic that Demona would be the most "human-oriented" of all gargoyles. Though it does make sense, given that it's been said that people often resemble those whom they most hate.]

It is ironic and it does fit into the category of starting to resemble those you hate the most although I always figured that in her case it was more due to her living among Humanity for 1000 years. However secretly she was doing it, in a way she was part of Human society and adapted to living with it and in it. Its even more evident after THE MIRROR where she has a much easier time moving around in daylight.

Goliath for all his talk lives pretty much in isolation throughout the entire series; he isn't really interacting with alot of Humans at all. Its true that he comes into contact with more people due to patroling the city and touring the World but that is different from having to really deal with them to get anything you want or need. Most of the time he was largely dependent on first Xanatos, then Elisa, and finally Xanatos again.

You wrote: [I'd argue that Matt Bluestone could be just as likely to play the part of Don Quixote as Griff could]

I agree, Matt can be as Don Quixote-like as Griff could. Probably even more so. But Matt is fighting and trying to expose something that really exists but that everyone thinks is an illusion. Everything Don Quixote was after was in his head. Its not a bad reversal between the two when they are in comparison with each other.

(Griff probably might fit a Don Quixote-ish description better than Matt since while we know that Merlin exists to him its largely questionable. He and Arthur could be on a literal quest for something/someone who doesn't exist anymore. And even with King Arthur in front of you it is still kind of difficult to accept the idea that Merlin also exists. Matt might have decided on an impossible task but he knows that what he wants exists and its possible (slim but still possible in theory) he could accomplish what he wants to do in some way. Griff on the other hand might think that he's searching for either a legend that doesn't exist in reality the way Arthur knows it or for something that doesn't exist anymore and can't be found. That lack of knowing gives Griff's quest a bit more of a Don Quixote-ish edge to it than Matt's obsession with the Illuminati has.)


JIMMY - You wrote: [Perhaps episode rambles, gathering journals, and all that extraneous stuff can be moved to another section. Therby reducing the queue and dealing with that pesky collateral damage problem.]

The thing that bugs me about splitting ASKGREG in two parts (one to ask individual questions and the other to post ramblings on his ramblings) is that Greg might not exactly have that much time to look through everything and post. If everything is in two parts then he has to choose which section to go through. One section might not get as much attention as the other and questions that are asked later much get answered sooner than someone who posts a rambling comment that he might not get to. It might discourage rambling posts. I think that anything asked should be kept in the same questions asked queue.

The only time that the ramblings should be split from the main archive is if the long existing queue we have is going to be wiped out and the ramblings are being sorted out to be resubmitted to the queue so they can survive it.

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Sunday, December 15, 2002 11:14:20 AM
IP: 12.88.161.120

Forgot my pic...
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
Sunday, December 15, 2002 12:45:18 AM
IP: 209.198.12.162

That was the episode "Eye of the Beholder," (one of my personal favorites) the Halloween episode in which Fox transforms into a werefox due to the Eye of Odin. In that episode, Fox is under the power of the Eye, and Xanatos is unable to save her by himself. The running joke with the plans is showing that Xanatos is normally completely in control. In this case, though, Xanatos's plans spin completely out of control, and there's nothing he can do. So, the constant references to his normal M.O. of having unlimited back-up plans is his denial of the fact that the situation has become too much for him to happen. If you want more, you could look up Greg's ramble on this episode: http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/archives.html Click on "Ramblings" and you can see his thoughts on every episode up through "Sanctuary," the one where Angela and Demona meet in Paris.

On another note, this is exactly the sort of question you should ask here, because Greg has answered it before. Good thinking.
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
Sunday, December 15, 2002 12:44:23 AM
IP: 209.198.12.162

Airwalker> Point well taken... I understand.

I had a couple of questions that I wanted to "ask" but since the "ask greg" thing is "MIA" So to speak (pun intended,) can someone out there answer my question?

1) In one episode, (the Edge, I think) Goliath and Elisa fly into the castle and ask Xanatos if he has a plan "B" or "C" (or something like that). Is this in reference to what Greg meant by Xanatos always having a contigency plan?
(Thanks in advance to whoever answers my question.)

Thanks again!

Later~

Pyro X
CanadaSunday, December 15, 2002 12:03:32 AM
IP: 205.206.79.107

Long time no speak, hello everyone. Sorry to not keep up with stuff, just dropping by.

Todd, I agree with your thoughts on Demona. And isn't it true that people start to turn into the things they hate when they show enough passion, etc? I kind of think so. Oh well....

Vilija - [pikavil@hotmail.com]
CanadaSaturday, December 14, 2002 11:16:34 PM
IP: 216.221.81.99

Back at my parent's house for the first time in a while. That means back to dial up and *Shudder* a windows OS. But as far as the Ask Greg issue: Yea, it is a shame that the episode rambles and stuff would go with an wiped queues. Perhaps episode rambles, gathering journals, and all that extraneous stuff can be moved to another section. Therby reducing the queue and dealing with that pesky collateral damage problem.
Jimmy
Saturday, December 14, 2002 05:28:07 PM
IP: 172.130.87.19

Hey guys, just link droppping again. :) Voting is ending tomorrow (the 15th of the month) on teh Central American Gargoyles topic over at MGC, so drop by and cast your vote if you haven't. :)
Also, check out the great entries so far on the Moulin Rouge topic for December! :)

Also, Treasure Planet was AWESOME and i liked it better than anything disney has done since Lion King. ;)

Kessalia - [<<Mgc Voting End the 15th!]
Saturday, December 14, 2002 02:53:44 PM
IP: 24.247.97.173

WOW what a very busy week this one has turned out to be. After the last couple being so very quite it is nice to see everyone back and in good spirits.

Happy Holidays to everyone for Westrich.

Jenna
Saturday, December 14, 2002 01:00:49 AM
IP: 206.148.228.81

...
Anonymous
Friday, December 13, 2002 11:38:40 PM
IP: 152.163.188.164

AIRWALKER - [Still, given that Demona is probably the most Human oriented in terms of her thinking, odds are good that she would admire what they've done if not be outright impressed by it.]

I've got to admit that I find it particularly ironic that Demona would be the most "human-oriented" of all gargoyles. Though it does make sense, given that it's been said that people often resemble those whom they most hate. (Just don't let Demona know that she thinks more like a human than most gargoyles do to her face! :) ).

Incidentally, I'd argue that Matt Bluestone could be just as likely to play the part of Don Quixote as Griff could; after all, what else can you say about a man whose leading ambition is to expose a secret society so powerful that it even controls the President of the U.S.? (Then again, Mr. Jaffe did describe Matt as always "tilting at windmills" even as a boy, in "Protection").

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Friday, December 13, 2002 10:15:26 PM
IP: 65.57.61.30

Hey guys, I'm moving so I'm selling off all my Gargoyles Action figures and stuff. well most of them anyway. My ebay seller name is "aimee"

thanks for looking:
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=aimee&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=25

Aimee - [aimee@aimeemajor.com]
Friday, December 13, 2002 03:09:10 PM
IP: 66.125.135.130

VASHKODA - You wrote: [I'm surprised people haven't been giving more feedback in the other forum. Maybe because they agree with what's already been said and don't have anything else to add?]

I posted my thoughts there a while back so I don't know what more there is for me to say. I think that largely the preliminary plan that Gore posted a while back in that Forum (where a filtering committee is established) is pretty much the way to go more or less.

You wrote: [Maybe that's what he's waiting for before initiating the upgrades. Or maybe he's just busy (hopefully he'll have some time to work on AG around Christmas).]

I'm figuring that he's busy. Its not that urgent for him to work on since given that Greg is busy right now the odds are good that he wouldn't have the time to reply to even a filtered down queue. But despite that we should find a way to bring the queue down to a managable size - the way it is now can scare off question askers. Lord knows I haven't posted anything there for a long time since I know that the way things stand now its unlikely to get answered in the first half of this decade. :-)

You wrote: [Considering how isolationist they are, and how little exposure the whole island has had to mankind, I think they'd treat humans with as much fear and suspicion as the rest of the NO's did.]

True; but at the same time given that they live even in isolation on an island of isolationists they have to have gone into doing something. They could have established a sort of "human" society (business, art, religion, etc) that could influence how they would look on the shopkeeping culture of the London Clan. They would still hate and/or fear Humans but since when have hate and fear stopped anyone who might want to make a profit?

You wrote: [As for their appearance, I wouldn't be surprised if they were more 'Scotish-looking' than heraldic. Otherwise the audience might get confused and wonder if Sphinx is a gargoyle (as I did when I first saw pictures of her).]

Its possible that they have their own look that would make them easier to differenciate from the New Olympians but still able to be identified as Gargoyles. I still think though that odds would be good that they might have more in common in terms of traits with the London Clan despite how it might make them easy to be confused with New Olympians. (In fact despite knowing that they are isolationist even among New Olympians, odds are that a few Gargoyles here and there have visited and moved around New Olympian society. It might be more useful if they had developed along lines that makes it easier for them to blend into that society.)


PYRO X - You wrote: [Login names and Tracking IP's... Logins never stopped me before. If they REALLY want their questions answered, they'll sign up.]

I would really prefer if any ASKGREG solution avoided this; while it might not stop a large amount of people it is possible that it could chase off even one or two fans which is one or two too many. Any solution should be completely newbie friendly to the point of almost bending over backwards.

You wrote: [One of Vash's poll answers was to have people E-Mailed back id their question(s) was/were already answered... I like that option.]

If they want to submit an e-mail address with their question then its not a bad idea. But if it forces someone to have to submit an e-mail address then I think that it should be avoided.


BUD-CLARE - You wrote: [I bet all the tales of King Arthur that he heard when he was a child had a Don Quixote effect on him. ;)]

Now all I can see is Griff flying into Windmills while King Arthur follows him around like an idiot. :-)

You wrote: [I think that mostly she'd be impressed and amused by their success at hiding in plain sight. It _is_ pretty damn cool.]

It is cool although I have to wonder exactly how much money they can really be making? Can a magic shop really produce enough to support an entire full sized Clan of Gargoyles living in the suburbs?

Still, given that Demona is probably the most Human oriented in terms of her thinking, odds are good that she would admire what they've done if not be outright impressed by it. I wonder if she would advocate that they engage in price gouging? :-)

You wrote: [Maybe instead of just deleting the questions that break the rules, they could be sent to a special rejects page (but with a more diplomatic name), with a note saying why they were rejected.]

Having a question outright rejected rather than just diplomatically eliminating it without saying anything as is done now would probably drive some people away. Besides it seems to make things a little too complicated. Simplicity should be the name of the game. In the end all we are trying to do is get the queue to a manageable level and then honestly the rest is up to Greg. If he doesn't have time and original, legitimate questions keep getting submitted then we're still going to have a huge backlog. The main problem now is that a large part of that backlog is repeat, trivia and FAQ questions.

You wrote: [Plus, we could add "Question already answered in the FAQ" as a reason to reject a question. There's a vast difference between a question that's been asked a couple of times before, but the answer is buried somewhere in the archive and would probably take quite awhile to find, and a question that is specifically and clearly answered in the FAQ (like which Weird Sister is which).]

Maybe a search engine is needed. It is true that searching the Questions Answered Archive is time consuming and disorganized.


MATT - You wrote: [you know i've really studied hard the differences between all the clans and i've noticed that while a casual glance won't show alot of difference between the Mayan, Wyvern and Japanese clans they are actually quite distinct.]

That is true but at the same time even given that every Clan has unique features and is different from the other, the London Clan is still radically different from the other Clans that we have seen. While a close inspection of Kai and Goliath would reveal difference, just a glance between Una and Goliath would tell you that there is a radical difference. Perhaps if we had a greater view of the Wyvern Clan or more Londonish traits among the other Clans (aside from Zafiro with his feathered wings) then it wouldn't seem as different. But as it is while they are biologically Gargoyle they really seem radically different in look from most of the other Clans.

You wrote: [all the clans are very distinct from each other and when you really start to look at those distinctions you'll realize the English Clan isn't all that odd looking compared with the others...]

I don't think that they are odd at all - just really different from the other Clans that we have seen so far. If we did encounter another group of Gargoyles who seemed similar to the Londoners then it might not stand out as much as it does now. But at this point it does raise an eyebrow given that they are so far the only group of Gargoyles that look so different from any other group of Gargoyles we have seen.


JIMMY - You wrote: [I am actually all for setting up a multi person filtering system to answer questions a lot of hard-core fans would know about. Once that is set up, I say we just wipe the queue.]

Problem is that its not only questions in there - we have comments on episode ramblings which are much more difficult to reconstruct. A total queue wipe might not be the way to go - instead at the very least the ramblings should be filtered out and saved with everything else wiped out if a queue wipe was going to be done.

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Friday, December 13, 2002 11:19:18 AM
IP: 12.88.161.254

Lynati> "I know Greg Weisman didn't want repeat questions deleted because he thought it would make newbies lose interest or feel unwelcome, but I think not getting a reply in over a year has the same affect." lol, great point!

i think what we need to do is figure out our new criteria for submitted questions and decide what to do with the rejected ones. then we need to use that criteria and go through the Queue. then we can open Ask Greg back up with a much smaller Queue and a more selective process for accepting questions.

so lets do it!

matt
Friday, December 13, 2002 10:29:14 AM
IP: 207.230.48.7

Gemini Bloodian:
Greg Weisman is primarily responsible for the creation of our much-beloved show "Gargoyles". And gargoyles aren't from Greek Mythology. Everyone knows that gargoyles originated on Atlantis, where Greg Weisman himself was hatched and raised. That's why he-
No, wait. That's not right...

Here. Try this link:
http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/faq/index.html
This is a link to the Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) page
The answers to questions 1 and 2 of the VERY FIRST section you see should be helpful.

Lynati - [Lynati_1@hotmail.com]
Friday, December 13, 2002 06:44:14 AM
IP: 66.140.84.31

I know this may seem like a really stupid question but.
How did the makers of Gargoyles invent it.I mean where did they get the idea of making a tv show based on gargoyles.Did it just one day pop in thier head.Or did one person like gargoyles or did they decide to take something from Greek Mythology I beleive?

Gemini_Bloodian - [gemini_bloodian@battleancients.every1.net]
Pheonix, Arizona, USA
Friday, December 13, 2002 06:33:38 AM
IP: 24.197.192.188

What we need to do is go through the queue one by one and delete everything that doesn't belong.

I know Greg Weisman didn't want repeat questions deleted because he thought it would make newbies lose interest or feel unwelcome, but I think not getting a reply in over a year has the same affect.

We know what needs to be done. What we need to do is convince those in charge of it, get permission, and actually carry it out.

I know a section of full of "filler" questions was already passed on, but what's to stop us from weeding that section and forwarding the proper version, and have the passed-through slump deleted?


Lynati
Friday, December 13, 2002 06:24:24 AM
IP: 66.140.84.31

Jimmy> We can't totally wipe the queue, since not everything in the queue is a question (episode comments, etc). I do agree that we should take extreme measures, though. Maybe deleting all anonymous posts, and anyone who makes 5 or more consecutive posts should have all but the first two or so deleted, etc... If Greg does decide to let us delete some (which I kinda doubt), we should make an effort to keep the best questions, at least.
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Friday, December 13, 2002 04:33:06 AM
IP: 24.169.113.216

I am actually all for setting up a multi person filtering system to answer questions a lot of hard-core fans would know about. Once that is set up, I say we just wipe the queue. It's been stretched out wayy too long and I say anyone who is that passionate about a question can just reask it. But wiping it before some mechanism is set in place to prevent this from happening again would just put us in the same pickle in a year.
Jimmy
Friday, December 13, 2002 02:18:27 AM
IP: 199.74.80.39

Allaine: I saw Treasure Planet. Very good in my opinion. Funny too. I'd recommend seeing it. ^-^

Pyro X: ~2) Newbies post stupid questions and already answered ones (hey, I'm guilty of this), and then probably expect an answer in minutes. They don't bother to come back to look for their answers either.~
Lol! So true! I have a few questions that I'd like to ask Greg myself, but I wont. Don't feel like it. Besides there's way too much going on right now. :\

The whole "Ask Greg" issue: This is a pretty large pickle isn't it? Perhaps a multi person filtering system? Auto replies defiantly sound like a good plan. You'd just have to get a program for it. But that might cause problems. The message board string thing sounds good too. But closing down Ask Greg for a while and wiping all the currant letters that are awaiting answers is the most realistic idea. Then the previous Ask Greg answers could be organized properly, some new rules could be issued and better organization so it doesn't happen again.

I am starting to lose my train of thought, and it's only 8:30pm. @-@;

Aria_The_Insane
Thursday, December 12, 2002 11:29:20 PM
IP: 216.113.222.73

Vash> kudos on the polls in the forum! i encourage everyone to go in there and vote on those issues. it'll help get a general sense of what we all think would be best diplomatically. i think before we really even go to Gore about this stuff we should outline exactly what plan would be best and what we'd like to see. giving him a vague idea of what the problem is won't get it fixed.
*sigh* i'm glad we are discussing this again and i hope this time we pull through and do something about the problem over at Ask Greg...

English gargs> you know i've really studied hard the differences between all the clans and i've noticed that while a casual glance won't show alot of difference between the Mayan, Wyvern and Japanese clans they are actually quite distinct. from all 4 clans you have features that are entirely unique to that clan, in fact you almost have distinctions in every pyshical aspect. for instance, ears: no other clan besides English has lLeos ears, no clan besides Wyvernish has Broadways ears, no clan besides Japanese has Kai's ears and no clan besides mayan has Turquesa's ears. i could do the same for horns, wings, tails, beaks, even coloring. all the clans are very distinct from each other and when you really start to look at those distinctions you'll realize the English Clan isn't all that odd looking compared with the others...

matt
Thursday, December 12, 2002 06:09:35 PM
IP: 207.230.48.116

Last week, TREASURE PLANET earned a mere $5.5 million. Admittedly, it was a slower week for movies - the top two movies made $25M, whereas the week before the top 2 made $65M. Still, it does have the disadvantage of being released during Christmas, instead of the summer, and that makes it all the more challenging to be a hit.

Anyone seen it, btw? How is it? How does it compare to, say, Atlantis, Lilo, or Monsters, Inc?

Sincerely, Allaine

Allaine - [eac2nd@yahoo.com]
Philadelphia, PA
Thursday, December 12, 2002 05:53:10 PM
IP: 205.188.208.9

Bud-Clare > When Todd rejects a question, he could just select the reason for rejection from a list of checkboxes, and it could be automatically posted with the correct rejection message. (And the rejected questions could be deleted after six months or so. There'd be no point in keeping them around longer.)

I like this Idea!

Later~

Pyro X
CanadaThursday, December 12, 2002 03:08:07 PM
IP: 205.206.79.107

Airwalker> "Griff, as much as his choice is noble and as much as I really agree with his choice to go off and fight, is much more into the adventure of a crusade against evil, more in a classic Knight fashion than what Goliath might term as "Gargoyles Protect"."
I bet all the tales of King Arthur that he heard when he was a child had a Don Quixote effect on him. ;)

"would she even care at all and just be glad that there are other Gargoyles around?"
I think that mostly she'd be impressed and amused by their success at hiding in plain sight. It _is_ pretty damn cool.

Pyro X> "There should be a way to lure newbies in and get them to stay."
That's what the cookies are for. ;)

Ask Greg> Maybe instead of just deleting the questions that break the rules, they could be sent to a special rejects page (but with a more diplomatic name), with a note saying why they were rejected. (Story ideas, breaking the single topic per post rule... are there any others?) That would eliminate the confusion of wondering why your question was deleted, and then people would be able to correct and resubmit them. Plus, we could add "Question already answered in the FAQ" as a reason to reject a question. There's a vast difference between a question that's been asked a couple of times before, but the answer is buried somewhere in the archive and would probably take quite awhile to find, and a question that is specifically and clearly answered in the FAQ (like which Weird Sister is which). If the answer is somewhere in the archives, we could have the fleet of volunteers point the person in the right direction, but if it's in the FAQ, it could be weeded out sooner, so that no one has to waste their time on it. When Todd rejects a question, he could just select the reason for rejection from a list of checkboxes, and it could be automatically posted with the correct rejection message. (And the rejected questions could be deleted after six months or so. There'd be no point in keeping them around longer.)

Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Wednesday, December 11, 2002 11:36:34 PM
IP: 24.169.113.216

I'm also wondering what Greg Weisman's been working on; whatever it is, it must be something really big, to keep him from being able to answer even one "Ask Greg" question for the past three months (although it's arguable that the heavy amount of "trivia questions" may have scared him off it).

I suppose that the best solution to the backlog problem would be to set up a committee to answer all those "already been answered an umpteem times" questions in the queue, but so far, we haven't been able to set up a system for it.

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, December 11, 2002 07:27:58 PM
IP: 63.208.60.200

Hey again!

I've been downloading garg eps and I can't get over what I've been missing. I have the first season on video tape, but the rest I had recorded went MIA (pun intended). It's exciting to watch the whole series over again!

... ... ... ...

I've just been reading some of the "issues" about the site. I've just come back after a while (too long in fact), but I'd like to give my 2 cents if you'll here me out...

I been here on and off since the site was started. And, I've noticed things over the years.

1) The Queue IS too long.

2) Newbies post stupid questions and already answerwed ones (hey, I'm guilty of this), and then probably expect an answer in minutes. They don't bother to come back to look for their answers either.

3) Login names and Tracking IP's... Logins never stopped me before. If they REALLY want their questions answered, they'll sign up.

4) There should be a way to lure newbies in and get them to stay.

One of Vash's poll answers was to have people E-Mailed back id their question(s) was/were already answered... I like that option.

I just finished the "FAQ" and it was VERY helpful. I mean, I found questions in it that I had asked before. If it could be presented so people could find it before posting a new question, then that would be much better.

Over all, I don't know what else to say. A few tweaks here and there will make it more enjoyable for all.

Thanks.

Later~

Pyro X
CanadaWednesday, December 11, 2002 05:00:03 PM
IP: 205.206.79.107

Ask Greg> I'm surprised people haven't been giving more feedback in the other forum. Maybe because they agree with what's already been said and don't have anything else to add? I just added some polls there, in case people find that an easier way to post their opinion. Gore has made it clear he's hoping for more feedback. Maybe that's what he's waiting for before initiating the upgrades. Or maybe he's just busy (hopefully he'll have some time to work on AG around Christmas).

New Olympian Gargoyles> Considering how isolationist they are, and how little exposure the whole island has had to mankind, I think they'd treat humans with as much fear and suspicion as the rest of the NO's did. As for their appearance, I wouldn't be surprised if they were more 'Scotish-looking' than heraldic. Otherwise the audience might get confused and wonder if Sphinx is a gargoyle (as I did when I first saw pictures of her).

Vashkoda - [<- - Vote for your Ask Greg preferences]
Wednesday, December 11, 2002 03:05:35 PM
IP: 129.98.123.136

Airwalker... ... ... ... woah... ... ... deep... ...

MIA was one of my fav's. It's a great ep.

And thanks again for the DVD info all!!!

Later~

Pyro X
CanadaWednesday, December 11, 2002 02:39:43 PM
IP: 205.206.79.107

TODD - You wrote: [pity that poor Greg's been too bogged down lately]

Anyone have any idea what exactly he's been working on? I am a bit curious.

You wrote: [They have a dramatically different appearance from all the other clans. The other gargoyles that we met in the series all looked, more or less, humanoid, with leathery wings]

I am curious about that although to be honest we haven't seen the entire Clan; on the other hand Griff's comment to Goliath about him being "Scottish Stock" could imply that the English Gargoyles are exclusively Heraldic looking. After all would Griff have identified Goliath as Scottish if the London Clan had Gargoyles who were similar to him? It also implies that Scottish Gargoyles are exclusively Wyvern-ish looking (or at least remembered as being exclusively Wyvernish) - an interesting split between the two groups of Gargoyles.

I wonder if this split might not be a more "modern" (post 994) development. After all Goliath didn't appear suprised at all at Leo, Una, and Griff's appearance while Griff outright identifies him as a Scot. It could be that in the Middle Ages the two types of Gargoyles were in closer contact and that perhaps there was more of a crossover in the locations of Clans (Londonish Clans in Scotland and Wyvernish Clans in England) that was wiped out in the post-994 period. So it could be that to an English Clan that is largely or exclusively Heraldic in modern times that a Gargoyle who doesn't appear like that is probably a Scot.

You wrote: [the Mayan gargs]

Zafiro doesn't exactly fit the pattern that we have established which could mean that the London Clan (if it really is exclusively or largely Heraldic - we haven't seen the rest of the Clan after all) could have a makeup of Gargoyles similar to him with Wyvernish and Londonish traits.

You wrote: [Now, this physical difference wouldn't be so surprising, except for one thing; they're right next door to the Scottish gargoyles, and yet look far more dramatically different from them than do the Mayan and Japanese gargoyles, who live much further away. How does one explain that, I wonder?]

I'm figuring that Isolation had a lot to do with the vast amount of difference between the two and that in the past there was more give and take, more variation and mixture between the Scottish and English Gargoyles. After all except for perhaps getting a few individual Gargoyles who they might have stumbled upon, odds are good that the London Clan was made up of a single group that went into hiding. If most of that group was Heraldic then odds are good that they would stay that way when cut off from other types of Gargoyles.

Of course there could be geographic difference playing into this also - Gargoyles aren't exactly built for long term travelling in the Human Era. Just because England and Scotland are close to us, especially now given that you could probably drive between the two in a few hours, to Gargoyles in the Middle Ages it would have been a long and difficult journey that would have enforced isolation and perhaps seperate development too.

You wrote: [Although I have read that lion-like gargoyle sculptures exist in ancient Greek and Roman architecture, and griffons show up there as well. Maybe the London clan's ancestors migrated to Britain from the Mediterranean, while the Scottish gargoyles came from more northern climes.]

Its possible. It could be that Wyvernish Gargoyles dominated Northern Europe and Londonish Gargoyles were originally from the Mediterranean but then migrated north as Humans took over that region. It could be that they followed the Romans as they took over Britain as Gargoyles would give the Romans an advantage. It could be that given the odds are good that there was a Clan who might have been Heraldic in the area of Italy-Greece in ancient times who gave Caesar the reason to have the Roman Magus cast the Humility Spell and given that Brooklyn shows up there, its possible that after seeing and speaking with him they might have decided to relocate to a region they would have thought had a bigger Gargoyle population.

I'm sort of curious at this point to not only see more of the London Clan but also to see what the New Olympian Gargoyles look like; since they are largely refugees from the Mediterranean region then odds are good that they would also be Heraldic. It would be interesting to compare such a "similar" Clan to the London Clan. Living in isolation would it be possible that the New Olympian Gargoyle would have formed a more Humanlike Culture than Gargoyles in the outside world have? Would they be similar in attitude to protection as the Londoners? And what would the attitude towards Humans be between the two groups? Similar, different, somewhere in the middle?

You wrote: [I don't know if that's what you were thinking of when you mentioned the multitude of questions that they raised, Airwalker, I'll admit, but it certainly is a good one.]

I had something like this on my mind; but there are tons of other questions to ask - History, Literature, Politics - all those topics relate much more to a old, settled and perhaps even cosmopolitan Clan like the London Clan than they would to other Clans. Unlike Ishimura, the Londoners live with Humans but don't live with them at the same time, share life and business and everything but at the same time have a gulp seperating them. Its a unique position that they are put in from all the Clans we've seen in the series and it makes me wonder about an assortment of topics concerning them.

You wrote: [But there are also all the questions over their "culture" and "outlook". While Griff behaves more in the pattern of Goliath and Co., a warrior and adventurer who wholeheartedly believes in "gargoyles protect", Leo and Una were shopkeepers with an almost ostrich-like disregard for human problems]

I think that you are being a bit hard in your description of Leo and Una. They didn't appear to be thinking in terms of good and evil or even in terms of nationalism. To them it was one set of Humans vs another set with them in the middle trying to get by as well as they had been up to that point. They are also thinking in classical terms; Human bombs going off around them isn't arousing anger in them because its directed at other Humans, not at them. If they were attacked as Gargoyles then they would fight without question. But they aren't viewing themselves as part of the British experience but as standing outside of it.

Also they are thinking in terms of helping their Clan which needs the store to be open with them keeping a low profile, not dogfighting at night and running the possibility of dying or being captured. Griff, as much as his choice is noble and as much as I really agree with his choice to go off and fight, is much more into the adventure of a crusade against evil, more in a classic Knight fashion than what Goliath might term as "Gargoyles Protect".

You wrote: [Greg's indicated that the rest of the clan felt the same way as well. That could lead to some interesting analysis on gargoyle culture and character.]

Its one of the major reasons I don't think that "Gargoyles Protect" is anything more than cultural and don't believe at all that it could be biological imperative.

You wrote: [I wonder how he'd have responded if he'd found out that it's not just the English humans who're shopkeepers, either. :)]

I'm curious what Napoleon's attitude would be towards Gargoyles in general - would he have found them useful and trying to bring them around to the French cause or would he try to win favor with a Church he alienated by moving against them? He was always more pragmatic than religious after all.

Another thing I wonder about is Demona's reaction to the fact that the Londoners are shopkeepers. Would she be dismissive of it considering it to be beneath Gargoyles to do, would she approve of it as Gargoyles managing to outdo Humans at something they excel at, would she even care at all and just be glad that there are other Gargoyles around?

You wrote: [As for "Ask Greg" - sigh, I'm stumped on that one still. I suppose that we all are.]

It really is something that has to be resolved. Even if Greg doesn't have time to work on the backlog now, we should try to bring that backlog down at least a little bit for when he does have time. This is a problem that is going to haunt the entire ASKGREG system as long as a solution isn't found. The longer we wait to do anything, the harder its going to be to fix it.

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Wednesday, December 11, 2002 02:22:30 PM
IP: 12.88.162.88

AIRWALKER - Yep, MIA is next (pity that poor Greg's been too bogged down lately to do any further episode rambles for the past three months). And I agree that the London clan do have some interesting issues to look over.

One, of course, is the fact that they have a dramatically different appearance from all the other clans. The other gargoyles that we met in the series all looked, more or less, humanoid, with leathery wings: the Scottish gargs, the Mayan gargs, and the Japanese gargs. But the London gargoyles look like anthropomorphic animals - and have feathered wings instead of batlike ones. Now, this physical difference wouldn't be so surprising, except for one thing; they're right next door to the Scottish gargoyles, and yet look far more dramatically different from them than do the Mayan and Japanese gargoyles, who live much further away. How does one explain that, I wonder?

(Although I have read that lion-like gargoyle sculptures exist in ancient Greek and Roman architecture, and griffons show up there as well. Maybe the London clan's ancestors migrated to Britain from the Mediterranean, while the Scottish gargoyles came from more northern climes).

I don't know if that's what you were thinking of when you mentioned the multitude of questions that they raised, Airwalker, I'll admit, but it certainly is a good one. But there are also all the questions over their "culture" and "outlook". While Griff behaves more in the pattern of Goliath and Co., a warrior and adventurer who wholeheartedly believes in "gargoyles protect" (and shows it in first protecting London during the Battle of Britain, and then in accompanying King Arthur on his adventures as his very first knight), Leo and Una were shopkeepers with an almost ostrich-like disregard for human problems, going for the "let's look the other way" approach. Greg's indicated that the rest of the clan felt the same way as well. That could lead to some interesting analysis on gargoyle culture and character.

(I've got to admit - in light of Napoleon's famous description of the English as a "nation of shopkeepers", I wonder how he'd have responded if he'd found out that it's not just the English humans who're shopkeepers, either. :) ).

As for "Ask Greg" - sigh, I'm stumped on that one still. I suppose that we all are.

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, December 11, 2002 09:03:21 AM
IP: 63.208.46.223

MOONCAT - You wrote: [Out of curiousity, what episode were we at when the episode discussion topics broke down?]

SANCTUARY was the last episode we talked about. I think that means that we were about to get to MIA. I would have liked to get into that episode; Time Travel discussion aside, just the London Clan by itself brings up tons of questions and debate.

(I'm also still waiting to see if we're going to get back into the whole ASKGREG discussion again. Its about that time of year again and besides we never did come up with any concrete solution. Its still in the same situation it was the last time it was brought up.)


PYRO X - You wrote: [So what this I hear about Gargs on DVD???]

All we know is that we got information that Disney is planning a GARGOYLES DVD in 2003. If its successful then they will release more. Thats all we know right now. Most likely its going to be a release of the first five episodes - AWAKENING in some form. (Given Disney's recent DVD work odds are good that it'll be a heavy duty DVD. If they can put three different versions of BEAUTY AND THE BEAST on the same DVD then they can do the same thing with two different versions of AWAKENING (movie version and episode version).


By the way just to let people know in general - TECHTV has gotten into the anime competition with CN and ADULT SWIM. Starting December 30 they have there own anime lineup showing up, made up of the following shows:

BETTERMAN, CREST OF THE STARS, DUAL, LAIN, SILENT MOBIUS, ARMITAGE POLYMATRIX, GHOST IN THE SHELL, MACROSS PLUS, PATLABOR I.

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Wednesday, December 11, 2002 12:02:25 AM
IP: 12.88.163.4

Pyro: www.gargoyles-fans.org
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
Tuesday, December 10, 2002 11:16:04 PM
IP: 209.198.12.162

Been WAAAAAAAY too long ;)

Uh, is there an episode list out there? I want to donwload the ep's... I can't get them on cable up here...

Later~

Pyro X
CanadaTuesday, December 10, 2002 10:27:29 PM
IP: 205.206.79.107

Out of curiousity, what episode were we at when the episode discussion topics broke down? Last thing I can remember is Sanctuary. Which is a shame as some great episodes like Ill Met By Moonlight and Future Tense were coming up and I was looking forward to having some discussion on them.

later
MC

Mooncat
Tuesday, December 10, 2002 08:40:24 PM
IP: 68.102.23.36

Hey, Been a while ;)

So what this I hear about Gargs on DVD???

Later~

Pyro X
CanadaTuesday, December 10, 2002 05:58:36 PM
IP: 205.206.79.107

Well I'm out of this game, unless there is a way some1 can find out what News ppl and Garden show ppl are some way connected to Gargoyles.
I'll take a stab at that last one though, everyone you named on that list I have seen in a movie and then I hae have seen Gargoyles so there all connected (yeah that was stupid)
Cha Ching !

Babs
Philly, Pa
Tuesday, December 10, 2002 03:45:47 PM
IP: 68.83.228.122

Patrick> umm, i don't think anyone has told anyone not to talk about anything. i'll quote myself here: "i'm happy those of you participating in the degree of seperation conversation are having fun, but the reason i'm not is because..." i know i didn't say you couldn't have this conversation, and i don't think anyone else said you couldn't have this conversation either! so calm down, get your coffee, and have a cookie *points to cookie table*
geeez...

matt
Tuesday, December 10, 2002 09:04:03 AM
IP: 207.230.48.102

:: eyeroll ::

Okay, sorry... I didn't realize this room was supposed to be more like an organized PE class where everyone is just going to play dodgeball and less like a recess where those of us who want to play kickball can do so while others use the swings or climb the jungle gym.

I mean... what's so hard about starting another topic if the current conversation doesn't interest you? So "Six Degrees of Separation" isn't your thing. Does that mean no one is allowed to play? Maybe after five years of discussing the same plotlines and characters over and over and over again, some of us are just looking for something fresh to use our brains on.

Yes, I'm a little snippy this morning. I haven't had my caffeine yet.

:: off to work ::

Patrick Toman - [<-- powered by java]
Tuesday, December 10, 2002 07:34:49 AM
IP: 67.38.251.34

i'm with Todd, i don't watch much tv and only movies that really intrigue me do i go out to see. and even in the tv shows and movies i watch i don't focus on the ACTORS, i focus on the CHARACTERS and the plot/storyline. so if we were gonna focus on degrees of seperation within a genre (like Gargoyles or Star Trek, or whatnot) i could understand the point.
so, i'm happy those of you participating in the degre of seperation conversation are having fun, but the reason i'm not is because i don't care to, i couldn't if i wanted to and the whole discussion is only vaguely Gargoyles related, which is the reason i come to this CR, of course...

later :)

matt
Tuesday, December 10, 2002 01:28:20 AM
IP: 207.230.48.72

I think I have an interesting degree of separation challenge (I already know of one way to do it with Amy Jo Johnson in 3 steps): Gargoyles to the movie "Suzy Q" in 3 or more steps.
DPH
AR, USA
Tuesday, December 10, 2002 12:05:24 AM
IP: 204.94.193.24

Well, in my case, what keeps me from participating in the whole "Degrees of Separation" business isn't the easiness, but rather that I simply don't watch that much television or go to that many movies, meaning that I'm not quite suited to take part in the game thereby. I'm just not that big on actor trivia, I suppose.

When we get back to things such as the episode review in the Gargoyle DVC (which has been on hold since Greg got bogged down), then I'll be able to say more, since that's more my area. When things like the "Degrees of Separation" game are the main topic here, I feel like a person who's been invited to a book discussion group, prepared to discuss the plotline, the characters and their motivations, etc., only to discover that instead we're discussing which other writers the author was acquainted with.

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, December 9, 2002 10:08:20 PM
IP: 67.28.95.140

the thrill of linking isn't merely in the shortest route, quite to the contrary, it's in making long drawn-out chains to ever more obscure or unusual things, like for instance, "Kevin Sorbo to Conan the barbarian...to gargoyles" Kevin Sorbo was in "kull the conqueror with Tia Carerre, who was in Wayne's world with Mike Myers, who was in "Shrek" with Eddie Murphy, who was in "Coming to America" with James Earl Jones, who was in "Conan the Barbarian" with Mako, who was in Samurai Jack with Jeff Bennett who voices...a buttload of people on Gargoyles, it's the complexity of the chains that matters
shogun raptor
Monday, December 9, 2002 09:56:20 PM
IP: 209.86.185.48

Darn . . .

Despite my earlier posts contributing to this thread, Todd J is probably right in not jumping into the "degrees of separation" fray, just because it's too damn easy. What do all these people have in common - Harrison Ford, Robert Duvall, Julia Roberts, Richard Gere, Arnold Schwarznegger, Michael Douglas, Michael Keaton, Rene Russo, Sharon Stone, Gene Hackman, Leonardo DiCaprio, Kathy Bates, Christopher Lloyd, Michael J Fox, James Garner, Morgan Freeman, Tim Robbins, Dylan McDermott, James Cromwell, Malcolm McDowell, Mary Steenburgen, Kathleen Turner, Anthony LaPaglia, Bruce Willis, Ben Affleck, Chris Tucker, and Denis Leary? They can all be connected to Gargoyles by one degree. I submit that the challenge is gone.

Sincerely, Allaine

Allaine - [eac2nd@yahoo.com]
Philadelphia, PA
Monday, December 9, 2002 03:02:20 PM
IP: 205.188.208.9

After eight hours, I can still be number 10. I'm not sure that's a good sign if we want more activity...
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
Monday, December 9, 2002 08:02:49 AM
IP: 209.198.12.162

9th!
matt
Monday, December 9, 2002 07:32:13 AM
IP: 216.178.8.58

Here we go again....
Lurker #2 - [8th!]
Monday, December 9, 2002 05:52:56 AM
IP: 129.217.143.253

7th
Jimmy
Monday, December 9, 2002 03:07:22 AM
IP: 199.74.80.39

6th in the name of the Fay!

MC
>^,,^<

Mooncat
Monday, December 9, 2002 01:24:36 AM
IP: 68.102.23.36

Fifth! Hey, it sure has been a while since I've made it on the top ten. Coolness!
ColdFire
Monday, December 9, 2002 01:12:07 AM
IP: 199.185.30.201

Fourth or something.

Sigh. I miss Ask Greg. I miss the DCV. Heck, I even miss Gore's weekly update. I just need something -new-!

*waits impatiently for Jim R.'s videos and Cyrille's next game*

Vash
Monday, December 9, 2002 01:07:40 AM
IP: 129.98.123.136

Third!
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Monday, December 9, 2002 12:48:30 AM
IP: 24.169.113.216

2nd, top 10!!
DPH
AR, USA
Monday, December 9, 2002 12:24:01 AM
IP: 204.94.193.77

1st, cool :P
Babs
Monday, December 9, 2002 12:21:11 AM
IP: 68.83.228.122