Comments for the week ending September 8, 2003

Index : Show Images

Battle Beast> Hudson has this "Protect" mentality...

And the rest of clan doesn't? :)
James Anatidae AKA Jonathan Parshall - [parshall@citcom.net]
Brevard, NC, USA
Sunday, September 7, 2003 05:09:30 PM
IP: 206.74.232.142

I'm feeling evil tonight. No reason why.

I talked to a friend who works for Disney, Canada. She has a master list of vidoes/dvds comming out in the future and she said it has "Gargoyles, 2004" on it.

Nifty.

Bronx/Cagney> Hudson loves Bronx, much more than we love our pets, I think. He's more than a "dog" (for lack of a better term; I KNOW Greg does not like to say Bronx is a dog) he's family. So is Elisa. By extension, so is Cagney.

Hudson has this "Protect" mentality... the weak, the innocent, etc. Cagney, without Elisa, is no different. Hudson would do anything for Elisa, like helping Cagney.

Later~
Battle Beast
CanadaSaturday, September 6, 2003 11:28:58 PM
IP: 142.59.111.33

On the subject of the latest issue of Avalon Mists: I just want to go on record as saying that I think this issue is rip-roaring fabulous. And I thought AvMists was great before. It's obvious that TONS of work went into this issue, and Stephen and Siryn deserve the highest accolades. The marvelously inclusive coverage outlined on the first page is very inviting and encouraging for would-be contributors, and the entire issue is visually striking, besides being outstandingly well written. Check it out, everyone. You'll like it.

On another subject entirely, I want to call to the attention of all baseball fans, especially those who enjoy good writing, a tip recently left by Greg Weisman on this site about his brother Jon's blog site, "Dodger Thoughts." Granted, baseball geeks like me will have the best appreciation for Jon's site, but content notwithstanding, it's obvious that writing talent runs in that family.


Ellen - [efstolfa@aol.com]
Chicago
Saturday, September 6, 2003 02:35:36 AM
IP: 205.188.209.12

Gah! Too many thoughts! Too many posts for me!

Thinking about "Kingdom":
Somehow, I think Xanatos got a kick anyway since he:
* saw Derek and the others acting like impetuous fools
* saw Brooklyn utterly impotent as oice of reason in the party.
* knew Brooklyn was screwed
* knew Brooklyn knew he was screwed...
*... because everyone was over-reliant on Goliath.
Real tragi-comedy, ya dig?

JJ "Gregarius" (T) - [Nahnah@nana.nah]
Orlando, FL
Saturday, September 6, 2003 01:11:28 AM
IP: 65.244.173.75

<<Although, in "Future Tense", I would say Brooklyn and Demona were a little MORE than Big Sister/Little Brother, if you know what I mean. Far from it. ;)>>
That's what happens when your big sister isn't your big sister. In the immortal words of Weisman, stop thinking like a human! :P :P :P

But seriously, now...

There is some sort of bond between the two. Just look at how childlike Brooklyn becomes when Demona begins to explain how evil humanity is. For a while, I was even trying to figure out how Brooklyn could be Demona's son.

From this I had a thought: perhaps Brooklyn desires to defeat (I want to say kill if I can justify it) Demona partly to avenge Demona: the maternal Demona he used to love. (Sounds so Gargoyle-ish, doesn't it?)

On that note, does anyone feel shades of Luke Skywalker in Brooklyn in eps like this? I would normally say that would be pushing things, but I sense that there must be some reason the Phoenix Gate "chose" Brooklyn in TimeDancer. Some destiny. (Or is Brooklyn one of thousands of TimeDancers?)

* * *

When I'm trying to be this terse, I feel like I'm leaving important stuff out of my comments. Am I making sense? I may have to expand on my thoughts at a later time.

Formerly JJ T.
JJ "Gregarius" (T) - [Nahnah@nana.nah]
Orlando, FL
Saturday, September 6, 2003 12:56:06 AM
IP: 65.244.173.75

<<Quick question: Did anyone else get the feeling that Brooklyn and Demona had a certain "Big Sister"/ "Baby Brother" relationship up through "Temptation?" In that ep., Brooklyn seemed to expect Demona to act rather maternally (in the "Big Sis" sense) towards him and to find himself baffled by the monster he saw in "Awakenings V.">>

Well, I suppose I could see it that way...a little. You could say that all of the younger gargs (Lex, Broadway, etc.) looked up to Demona as an older sibling until of course, she went a little nuts with the whole plot kill off humanity. But anyways, Brooklyn was still not certain he wanted to believe Demona was really against him, after she does point out some the weaknesses in human society. Sort of like flipping a coin, but you can't seem to decide which side to choose until after it hits the ground. Only then are you absolutely certain.

Although, in "Future Tense", I would say Brooklyn and Demona were a little MORE than Big Sister/Little Brother, if you know what I mean. Far from it. ;)
Jim R.
Friday, September 5, 2003 10:22:46 PM
IP: 65.40.67.96

Sorry for the double post (this time, it can't be helped; I hadn't expected nobody to post here since this morning), but I watched my tape of "Kingdom" this afternoon.

One thing that I thought was a pity, the first time around that I saw it, was Xanatos having a relatively small role, though it was still a fun one. I got a kick out of him just sitting there casually at his desk when Broadway and Brooklyn come crashing through the ceiling into his office. And his saying "Do I really need an excuse to have a good time in my own home?" (But for me, the funniest scene in the entire episode remains the part where Claw hides inside his wings from an angry Fang.)

I recall wondering what was going to happen with Xanatos in Goliath and Elisa's absence (especially after his "I wasn't aware that I needed permission" line), but I think that it's not so surprising that he didn't really take advantage of it. (I've said this before, I admit - but after six years since "Gargoyles" ended, it's getting difficult to say anything new about the series). After all, Xanatos simply didn't think "cliched super-villain" enough to go for launching a savage attack on the clan or upon Manhattan in Goliath's absence.

One of my favorite bits is Broadway and Hudson (especially Hudson) looking after Cagney in Elisa's absence. (Particularly Hudson admitting to Cagney "You're no Bronx" - he must have really missed the gargoyle beast.)
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Friday, September 5, 2003 07:01:08 PM
IP: 171.75.194.37

[No it wasn't. The whole point of the World Tour was to unroll the tapestry of the Gargoyles Universe. Before the Tour no one would have thought that there was a Galactic War being waged in our universe or that such places as New Olympus, the Dreamtime and Avalon existed. ]

Of course, there are those who believe that it should have stayed that way (though I'm not one of them).
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Friday, September 5, 2003 07:32:19 AM
IP: 171.75.194.82

why is Francois Ferland reposting all his questions? Todd, please make a note to delete all but one set of his questions...


matt
Friday, September 5, 2003 02:14:50 AM
IP: 207.230.48.17

<I did. When we see that Raven uses the "holograms" to fool Goliath, I knew right then that there would be more... I knew the whole point of the tour was to find more Gargoyles. >

No it wasn't. The whole point of the World Tour was to unroll the tapestry of the Gargoyles Universe. Before the Tour no one would have thought that there was a Galactic War being waged in our universe or that such places as New Olympus, the Dreamtime and Avalon existed.

<Did you also realize that Raven and Grandmother knew what Garoyles were? I think Grandmother states that she does, but clearly Raven new what they were. I thought that that was an interesting tidbit.>

So? One would be suprised if ancient and very immortal beings capable of teleportation and shapeshifting did NOT know what gargoyles were seeing that they were once the dominant race on the planet.
Question
Thursday, September 4, 2003 11:19:09 PM
IP: 144.92.164.205

Did any of you realize that new Gargoyles were going to be found on the tour from this episode?

I did. When we see that Raven uses the "holograms" to fool Goliath, I knew right then that there would be more... I knew the whole point of the tour was to find more Gargoyles. In fact, I thought those "holograms" were real... but I was soon corrected.

Did you also realize that Raven and Grandmother knew what Garoyles were? I think Grandmother states that she does, but clearly Raven new what they were. I thought that that was an interesting tidbit.

Later~
Battle Beast
CanadaThursday, September 4, 2003 07:21:35 PM
IP: 205.206.73.159

Watched my tape of "Heritage" today. One thing that recently struck me is that this is where we get the first case (I believe) of non-Western mythology in "Gargoyles". Up until then, so far as I can recall, all the use of "real-world myth and legend" in "Gargoyles" had been from western Europe (primarily the British Isles): gargoyles, Macbeth, Puck, the Cauldron of Life, Avalon, the Weird Sisters, and King Arthur. (Plus the Eye of Odin, although it hadn't been revealed yet as being literally that. The Illuminati probably count - the real-world Illuminati came from Bavaria.) Now the series brought in elements from Native American mythology (Raven, the Thunderbird, totem poles, etc.)

The bits that I especially get a kick out of:

The look on Natsilane's face when Grandmother explains about curing Elisa with tree bark and roots.
Bronx rescuing Elisa from the bear and then popping his head out of the bush and smiling triumphantly.
Raven's little "sour grapes" moment: "This place no longer amuses me." (Actually, Raven got a lot of the good lines in this one - but tricksters always seem to get the good lines.)
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, September 4, 2003 07:12:31 PM
IP: 171.75.195.41

having just seen "temptation" I'd have to agree that in the past there may have been a sense of that "big sister/little brother" relationship, mostly because the two of them share a lot of similar qualities, for one thing they both seemed more at home in the modern world, for another Brooklyn's attitude in a lot of episodes reminded me of Demona during the archmage subplot in "long way to morning" and of course once betrayed both of them are out for the betrayer's blood afterward
Shogun Raptor
Thursday, September 4, 2003 02:08:37 PM
IP: 199.183.198.9

Jim R. et al. >> I'm not leaving yet!
(Leaving any residual religious topics for another time...)

Quick question: Did anyone else get the feeling that Brooklyn and Demona had a certain "Big Sister"/ "Baby Brother" relationship up through "Temptation?" In that ep., Brooklyn seemed to expect Demona to act rather maternally (in the "Big Sis" sense) towards him and to find himself baffled by the monster he saw in "Awakenings V." I could be totally off, though. I haven't seen "Temptation" in a long time.
(Reserving the rest of my thoughts for a little later...)

Formerly JJ T

JJ "Gregarius" (T) - [Nahnah@nana.nah]
Orlando, FL
Thursday, September 4, 2003 02:35:56 AM
IP: 65.244.173.75

Ed Gilbert June 29, 1931 - May 8, 1999: Captain of the Gaurd

Charles Hallahan July 29, 1943 - November 25, 1997 (My birthday): Mr. Jaffe

Roddy McDowall September 17, 1928 - October 3, 1998: Proteus

Thought you'd like to know.

Later~
Battle Beast
CanadaWednesday, September 3, 2003 10:12:12 PM
IP: 205.206.73.159

Watched my tape of "Shadows of the Past" this afternoon, starting on the Avalon World Tour. Whatever you can say about the rest of the World Tour, I think that this episode was one that definitely had to be done, in its connections to "Awakening" (the return to Wyvern, the confrontation with Hakon and the Captain's ghosts).

This time around, a fresh thought came to me. It's clear enough that one of the weapons that the two ghosts were using against Goliath was guilt connected to the Wyvern Massacre. What I started to wonder is what the guilt might be about precisely. I thought of two different possibilities (which could, in fact, have been combined together for added complexity). The first is "survivors' guilt" (Goliath had lived, while most of his clan hadn't). The second is that Goliath had decided to take only Hudson with him in pursuing the Vikings and left the rest of the clan behind at the castle, where they were consequently smashed by Hakon; logically, Goliath isn't to blame because he didn't suspect that the Vikings were going to take the castle by treachery in the daytime and that the rest of the clan would be sitting ducks there, and because he had sensible reasons for leaving them (he didn't want to leave the castle undefended, and it wouldn't take that many gargoyles to scare the Vikings off), but people aren't always rational where guilt is concerned.

The Captain saving Goliath and ascending was a great scene, I still think.

I was one person who thought that Hakon should have remained trapped in the cave for eternity, rather than teaming up with Wolf for a final battle with Goliath in "Vendettas", partly because the former seemed more poetic, partly because the fight with Wolf in "Vendettas" felt anticlimactic (in "Shadows of the Past" we've got psychological drama dealing with Goliath's thoughts and feelings about the Wyvern Massacre; in "Vendettas", it's just a big fight). But I've come to more or less accept it now.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, September 3, 2003 07:20:58 PM
IP: 171.75.231.219

*Shakes off silverbolt as she enters*
Hiya!

Faieq> ". Let's hope this time round they show all of the episodes,(for some reason last time they used to show all the episodes upto 'The Gathering' and then skip to 'The Journey')."
Amen to that - i've still never seen the last 5/6 eps of season 2.
" Anyway I'm at college during the day so I won't be able to watch" - my condolences. i have only 4 vc sessions a week for uni, and they're squashed into 2 days, so ample chance to catch up with the series.

Night all!

Sheltie
Shetland, UK
Wednesday, September 3, 2003 03:55:58 PM
IP: 213.122.127.232

What happened to my Obsidiana image?

Anyway, it's-a Me Dasrik, remember me? Um, I'm back after what, six years away time? I'm pursuing creative projects again and the first place I thought to look was here among the most creative people I've had the benefit of knowing in my life. How ya doing?

I don't watch much Gargoyles anymore. I don't get Toon Disney and even if I did... well I've seen them all. Currently trying to watch some Cowboy Bebop which is my favorite show right now, and thinking of starting a webcomic. I don't have an idea or even any drawing talent. LOL. I'm looking for an artist. I want to learn how to work with one.

Baibaiiii...
The One Known as Dasrik - [fey1027@yahoo.com]
Moreno Valley, CA, USA
Wednesday, September 3, 2003 02:16:33 PM
IP: 64.38.94.16

SIRYN - Thanks for the post, and thanks for all your webweaving to get AvMists back up!

And I second her posting, Everyone! Please send us feedback, positive or not... we want to make this the best zine going today, so be sure to drop us a line on anything. Tell is what's working, and what's not... after all, this is a production that is meant for YOU to enjoy.

Maintain and Check Six!
Stephen R. Sobotka Jr. - [ssobotka33616_AT_yahoo.com]
Tampa, FL, USA
Wednesday, September 3, 2003 09:05:26 AM
IP: 24.164.29.133

Avalon Mist is (finally) Up!

A few articles still need to be finished, but I didn't want to delay the site any longer. They'll be up in the next few days.

Please enjoy, and feedback is VERY welcomed. Please let us know if you like something, hate something, or have ideas on what else to put in it!

Thankyou to everyone who contributed for this issue!!
Siryn - [<--Avalon Mists]
Wednesday, September 3, 2003 01:08:26 AM
IP: 24.213.130.186

SILVERBOLT> I was going to post that very same article several monsths ago but I never got around to it! :P

It was from this fat book on Disney T.V. shows right? Or was it that book on all things Disney? I can't remember, But I know the book was white, wasn't it?

Interesting!

Later~
Battle Beast
CanadaTuesday, September 2, 2003 09:22:06 PM
IP: 205.206.73.159

"'I can imagine the day,' says Gary Krisel, 'when, instead of produciing shows for the networks or syndication or een for cable, our main business will be making shows that are intended primarily for home video consumption. It would be a logical development, and it might well become the most efficient way of delievering our product to our customers.'"

-It would seem that for better or for worse, dreams do come true. In this case, for worse. There are waaay too many direct to video sequels coming out. Disney's theater offerings have never been much for creativity considering how often they've ripped off the Brothers Grim, but I suppose now they have given up altogether and are just going to rehash the same old crap. SSDD.


Jimmy
Tuesday, September 2, 2003 06:57:38 PM
IP: 24.136.49.236

Not been in here for a looooooooooooong time!
Sheltie/Silverbolt> Yeah that is good news! It's good to see Toon Disney is not just showing the same old rubbish again and again. Let's hope this time round they show all of the episodes,(for some reason last time they used to show all the episodes upto 'The Gathering' and then skip to 'The Journey'). Anyway I'm at college during the day so I won't be able to watch... oh well still got my videos.
Faieq
UkTuesday, September 2, 2003 05:12:09 PM
IP: 212.159.30.247

Sheltie> THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! OH! If you hadn't said I would never have known! *grabs you by the cheeks and not caring if you're a girl or a boy kiss you over and over and over again* MUWHA! MUWHA! MUUUUUUUUUUUUWHA! *Does a super duper happy chappie dance, then, still in a high mood, dances over to Mooncat, does a happy dance with her and kisses her and hugs her before moving onto kissing Princess Alexandria, Demona Taina, Ayamai, Sydney and Spacebabie (who he only kisses on the cheek just incase Revel is around)*

OH HAPPY DAYS! WHOO!

And because I'm so happy because of this fact I'll just quote this paragraph about Gargoyles (I think this is the first real one I've found in a Disney book!) that I'm sure Mr. Weisman might recognise ;D

"In the last decade, the television animation division has launched more shows than can adequately be described here. Many of them have derived from past Disney successes while others have been comedies, or comedy dramas, rooted in a tradition that Disney helped establish. In 1994 however, Gary Kristl's team launched a new series titled 'gargoyles' which moved into wholly new territory.
'Gargoyles is our first venture into pure drama,' says Greg Weisman. 'There have been gargoyles in many cultures. The Chinese had dragon-style gargoyles. The Aztecs had them. They are on totem poles. But our gargoyles belong to a clan that had its origin a thousand years ago in scotland. They are the guardians of a castle, but most of them were destroyed and the few that remain are wrongfully blamed for betraying the occupants of the castle. They are cursed to sleep in the form of stone figures until the castle rises above the clouds. That finally happens when a rich guy buys the castle and moves it to the top of a skyscraper in Manhattan. That's when the gargoyles come to life...'
Garoyles shows that Disney television is ready to move in new and independent directions. Another important development was the 1993 release of 'The Return of Jafar', a feature-length video spin-off of 'Aladdin'. Intended as a promotional vehicle for a television series based on the Aladdin characters, 'The Return of Jafar' performed so well on its own (selling more than tweleve million units to date, thus becoming one of the top ten videios ever) that it suggests intriguing possibilites for the artists who have established the viability of the television animation team.
'I can imagine the day,' says Gary Krisel, 'when, instead of produciing shows for the networks or syndication or een for cable, our main business will be making shows that are intended primarily for home video consumption. It would be a logical development, and it might well become the most efficient way of delievering our product to our customers.'"

Extracted from 'The Art of Walt Disney: From Mickey Mouse to the Magic Kingdom' by Christopher Finch.

An interesting fact that I got from this book was that Gummi Bears was developed because Eisner's seven year old son was'obsessed with the translucent, rubbery, candy creatures.'

And THAT turned out to be Disney television's first big TV hit!
Silverbolt - [silverbolt2012@hotmail.com]
Alveley, Shropshire, UK
Tuesday, September 2, 2003 05:00:07 PM
IP: 81.131.106.220

Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury> Re: Piglet's Big Movie
I have that soundtrack. Carl Johnson's music is good (of course) but completely different from Gargoyles. There are some sweet little themes, but no big action pieces (this being a Pooh movie).
As to whether you should buy the CD or not, it depends on how well you can stand Carly Simon. She sings all the rest of the tracks. I don't care for her much, myself, but her style works very well in the Hundred Acre Wood.


Phil - [p1anderson@go.com]
Tuesday, September 2, 2003 08:44:03 AM
IP: 134.215.241.147

Does anyone have the soundtrack to Piglet's Big Movie? This is the only soundtrack available with music by Carl Johnson (not as orchestrator) that I've found - not counting the one given away at The Gathering a couple years ago. If anyone does have it, is it worth getting, even though only 5 of the 18 tracks are by Johnson?
Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury
Tuesday, September 2, 2003 06:05:00 AM
IP: 67.74.170.139

DEMONA MAY> Check your e-mail.
Greg Bishansky
Tuesday, September 2, 2003 01:28:50 AM
IP: 216.179.1.149

Sorry I have to repeat Myself!~~~~~=I'm very Upset because I have not got my two t-shirts from the Gathering 2003 NYC.. why I have not got them.. Pluss Dale is very upset because he did send the check to who ever it was and already chash it and I have not got my stuff.. Please email me. this comment will be on the other room same repeat. sorry for me to say it again. Being very upset! =~~ I wanted My stuff and I have been sick too long and sorry I was not there at the Gathering 2003 NYC but I deserve My stuff I have pay for! Please reply back! If you guys keep on saying I cant get My money back that I do understand but when it come to buying somthing from the Gathering I wanted My stuff please! PS: who is running this Gathering and why this or who is makeing this action in the right way.. ~~sign!~~
(gone off to bed taken some crap medicans again)
Margaret Demona May Stephens - [realdemona@yahoo.com]
I'm very Upset!, I wanted My stuff from the Gathering 2003 NYC!
Monday, September 1, 2003 08:07:12 PM
IP: 216.104.138.91

Hey there!
Been lurking for a while, but after what i saw today, i simply had to post.
Gargoyles has returned to Toon Disney in the UK!
It must be like a year since they dropped it from the schedule, but i turned on the tv this afternoon - and there it was.
They're showing one ep at 12.20 every afternoon, repeated @ 3.15.
Anyways, i'm really enjoying reading everyone's posts, specially the ones about Scots history.
I'm just about to start 2nd year with the UHI. I'm working towards a BA in cultural studies of the highlands & islands.
Our history classes last year covered everything from the ice age to the present day, so it's interesting to hear another take on things from people living outside the region. (a lot less biased than the lecturer for sure!)

Garg DVDs> just so long as they release a region 2 version, i'll be happy!

'night!
Sheltie
Shetland, UK
Monday, September 1, 2003 04:55:46 PM
IP: 213.122.200.29

........................Was Gargoyles the only 'drama' cartoon Disney made. I'm trying to think of some but... Thinking back to 'the Disney Afternoon', up till now, all of them were comedies with 'cute furry animals' (as Todd put it).

As for the DVDs, depending on how much they run, I'm thinking of getting 2 copies, one to watch and one to keep sealed in its original packaging. One season of 'the Simpsons,' 'Family Guy,' and 'Futurama' go for about ~$30. I don't even know if they would sell the whole season at once.

Vin
castle0909
Monday, September 1, 2003 12:18:46 PM
IP: 64.12.96.71

Now seriously...

AMGC and MGC have been updated!!!
AMGC: http://amgc.gargoyles-fans.org/
MGC: http://mgc.gargoyles-fans.org/

Topics for September:
MGC: Pirate Gargoyles
AMGC: Yuri/Yaoi

Voting on:
MGC: Circus Gargoyles
AMGC: Beauty & Beast

Congrats to all the great artists who participated, and the new ones as well!! :D
Siryn
Monday, September 1, 2003 08:53:45 AM
IP: 24.213.130.186

10th!!!
Siryn
Monday, September 1, 2003 08:51:18 AM
IP: 24.213.130.186

Number nine! Almost didn't make it...
Demona Taina
Monday, September 1, 2003 08:28:54 AM
IP: 196.42.28.73

8th.

I think that one reason why Disney doesn't do that much with "Gargoyles" (while being happy to produce sequels to its animated movies) is that "Gargoyles" is anything but "stereotypical Disney", and the execs know it. The animated sequels that they're making fit the company's image much better, so they decide to focus on "animated musicals with cute little furry animals" over a drama-adventure series whose protagonists are decidedly un-cute and un-furry living gargoyles.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, September 1, 2003 07:17:03 AM
IP: 171.75.194.117

lucky number 7!
Nickerous - [nickerous@yahoo.com]
SC, USA
Monday, September 1, 2003 02:54:13 AM
IP: 66.220.76.103

<ENTER LORD SLOTH>

6th, in the name of healing broken toes.
And sloths to of course.

<EXIT LORD SLOTH>
Lord Sloth
Monday, September 1, 2003 02:20:08 AM
IP: 216.185.90.49

5th.
Leo
Monday, September 1, 2003 12:53:02 AM
IP: 68.96.8.12

4th, in the name of logic and reason. (This also happens to be a product of a couple of my favorite numbers: 2 and 2)
DPH
AR, USA
Monday, September 1, 2003 12:17:41 AM
IP: 204.94.193.60

........................3rd. Also happens to be my favorite #.

Vin
castle0909
Monday, September 1, 2003 12:15:21 AM
IP: 64.12.96.71

Second in the name of long absent forum posters (like me)
Jim R: I'll write this again since the room was wiped. Greg Weisman himself has said that the Garg DVD WILL be put out in 2004, to conencide (spelling?) with the 10th aniversary of Gargoyles.
Enigma
Monday, September 1, 2003 12:02:58 AM
IP: 24.118.65.70

First! Muahahahaaha!
Yes I know, I'm really mature, not
Wingless
Monday, September 1, 2003 12:00:10 AM
IP: 24.102.127.129