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Gargoyles

The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending June 7, 2004

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I just thought of something... couldn't Demona have been the one to tell Xanatos of the castle in the first place? I mean, it must have been lonely for her all those years afterward. I can't remember how Xanatos came across the castle in the first place off the top of my head. Could it be?

Sorry about continuing that part. I'm done now. *Smiles*

Hi Stan! It's a pleasure to see you.

Will be waiting to hear the review from Todd.

Lily Doll - [lilmidnightlily@yahoo.com]
Sunday, June 6, 2004 10:30:12 PM
IP: 67.35.196.225

Siren>> Glad you find it useful. I forgot to mention that you had to hit the OK button in the Accessibility Options window, but it appears you figured it out!

Stanislov>>Welcome! From your screen-name, I have a question: are you of a Slavic background, or is there a story behind your name? (or both! ;-) )

JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Sunday, June 6, 2004 09:52:58 PM
IP: 4.247.176.85

Stan>Welcome! All discussion on Gargoyles is welcome. As well as questions. But this room is wiped at midnight every Sunday, so you may want to wait till tomorrow to post anything imporant. If you wish to see last weeks post, there is a link on this page for it too.
Siren
Sunday, June 6, 2004 09:08:36 PM
IP: 65.33.112.117

Hello everyone, I'm new to the room, but an old fan of Gargoyles. Forgive me if I'm behind on any topics. I'm reading through them now to get in idea of where the discussion is leading. Hope everyone is having a good day!
Stanislov - [JediJelly@aol.com]
Cincinnati, OH, USA
Sunday, June 6, 2004 08:52:46 PM
IP: 65.29.222.189

JJ>Wow! Thanks for the tip, it works great!
Siren
Sunday, June 6, 2004 07:45:41 PM
IP: 65.33.112.117

Watched my tape of "Awakening Part Five" this afternoon; however, I'll wait until after the room clears before posting my comments on it, so that there'll be the realistic possibility of many people getting to read it.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Sunday, June 6, 2004 07:11:52 PM
IP: 4.245.17.192

Siren>> There is something that can make your computer easier to use with one hand. If you have Windows, you may want to try the "Sticky Keys" feature.
Go to the Start menu, then open the Control Panel. Now open the Accessibility Options item.
In the resulting window, check the "Use StickyKeys" option. This lets you use the modifier keys -- shift, alt, and ctrl -- by press them, *then* pressing the key you wish to "modify."
For instance, when begining a sentence, you could press shift, then press the first letter of the sentence (which whill be capitalized). After this you can type normally (in lower case). It's a one-shot caps lock :).
Just don't press shift twice in a row -- for some reason Microsoft thought it would be cool for that to trigger a caps-lock feature that doesn't light up the caps lock LED on your keyboards :-/. If you find yourself typing in ALL CAPS, and you don't have caps lock on, press shift again. BTW, there should be an additional picture in the lower-left corner of your screen that indicates which modifier keys you are currently using; you may want to play around with it.
If you have a Mac, tell me and I'll figure out the Mac equivalent in a flash!

JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Sunday, June 6, 2004 04:30:38 PM
IP: 4.247.164.228

I had always figured demona was lying. city of stone and hunter's moon proved she was very much awake and alive through out the centuries. somehow, xanatos and deomna crossed paths. either she told him the stories of the wyvern castle and she gave him the grimorum or he aquired the grimorum then met deomna and he asked her about it, figuring she may have heard of the stories, but not knowing up until then she was involved. then xanatos bought the castle, and demona joined him in new york. she remained hidden in the castle till the right moment when she reveals herself to goliath. and then she tells him the lie that she finds them in stone sleep and begs magus to put the spell on her. then xanatos adds, he bought her to. before or after the castle purchase i don't know. xanatos had the understanding that a trip to the castle broke the spell. so he gave the impression that the stone deoma was in storage somewhere. all and all, demona was never under the sleep spell.


with the dvd, it will be released between oct-dec 2004

Siren
Sunday, June 6, 2004 01:23:15 PM
IP: 65.33.112.117

About Demona's 'Awakening': As I said before, writers tend to write forward, not looking forward and writing back (except for mystery writers). So it could clearly sound like Demona was lying the whole time, and it should be in the first episode. She had enough time to learn about disks and the plan before Goliath was even told? And she had less time 'awake'... or so they said. And later when it was obvious it was all a trap. As everything fell into place, the lie was very clear and later episodes revealed the lie.

Another question: DVD Gargoyles - I've been waiting for this one. It seems Greg mentioned the release of it. Is it still going down? And in what time frame? A year from now?

It'd be nice to have a DVD.

Lily Doll
Sunday, June 6, 2004 12:17:10 PM
IP: 67.35.196.225

Z - re: Sher Khan - Yes, that was the name of the tiger that harrassed and threatened Mowgli in "The Jungle Book".

Disney did an animated series that took the characters from their animated verison of the "Jungle Book" movie, and put them in a pre/current WW2 style world, that was called "TaleSpin". Baloo was a somewhat-slovenly, yet gifted seaplane pilot, King Louie the orangutang became the owner of a south-seas theme bar, and Khan was the owner of a major corporate company.

(Side note: this series seemed to also draw inspiration from a live-action series that was around in the early 1980's called "Tales of The Gold Monkey".)


Maintain and Check Six!

Stephen R. Sobotka Jr.
Tampa, FL, USA
Sunday, June 6, 2004 12:08:34 PM
IP: 24.164.32.253

Awakening Part IV -
Beyond the chase scene with Elisa in the park, I've never been too fond of this episode. It was necessary, though, strictly from the standpoint of plot progression. But beyond that, it really doesn't have too much to offer in my opinion.

The Demona thing -
Like Matt said, there was really no reason for any of the clan to distrust her. I guess Demona and Xanatos just felt that their lie would be easier than trying to cover her treacherous tracks regarding the Wyvern massacre, her immortality, and anything else in the past 1000 years. I for one thought it was quite clear at the time that she was hiding something since she was being so manipulative towards Goliath in constantly suggesting that they owe Xanatos their lives. It just seemed like she had a hidden agenda.

JJ Gregarius -
<the industialist Shere Khan>
Wasn't that the name of the tiger from the Jungle Book?

<Somebody who knows what the Time Cube is please stop me!>
Are you referring to Cable and Bishop from X-Men? I never followed the series too religiously, so I really don't remember too much about it.

Peace

Z
Sunday, June 6, 2004 10:03:58 AM
IP: 67.66.158.173

Demona and the Castle>> I seem to recall that Demona claimed to ask for the spell....
Well, weren't there indications early on that Demona was consipring with Xanatos, as if she were already awake?

JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Sunday, June 6, 2004 10:01:37 AM
IP: 4.247.164.17

depends on the meaning of 'feeling better'. my arm is still healing. i have a 5 inch titanium rod in my arm now. the drugs dull most the pain. but being that's the only injury and i am a righty, losing use of my left arm for a few months isn't too bad :)
Siren
Sunday, June 6, 2004 12:39:09 AM
IP: 65.33.112.117

R.I.P. Mr. Reagan, many are thinking of you tonight.

(Even though I am Canadian and his time was when I was younger, I still like the guy a lot.)

SIREN> Way to freakin' go!!!! I never thought I find a gargoyles / "Weird Al" Yankovic crossover, but there it is!! "Weird Al" Yankovic is my favorite singer, by the way...

That is all I will say.

Battle Beast
CANADASunday, June 6, 2004 12:18:43 AM
IP: 142.59.132.116

SIREN> Way to freakin' go!!!! I never thought I find a gargoyles / "Weird Al" Yankovic crossover, but there it is!! "Weird Al" Yankovic is my favorite singer, by the way...

That is all I will say.

Battle Beast
CANADASunday, June 6, 2004 12:17:07 AM
IP: 142.59.132.116

Siren>> Feeling better?
Demona claiming to have been awakened by moving the castle>>
Since we were never lead to believe that Demona was under the sleep spell, this was a clear indication that some hanky-panky was going on.
As for this being too subtle of a point for a Disney cartoon, I believe Disney has slipped subtle moments in Tale Spin, of all things. In "Plunder and Lightning," Kit Cloudclicker at one point explains to Don Karnage that he stole a crystal from him in order to swindle the industialist Shere Khan, after which he would have returned with the crystal and some extra booty. While Karnage appears to accept Kit's claims, a line of dialog later on shows that Karnage saw through Kit's lies, and was merely providing Kit a way to rejoin his pirate crew. If Tale Spin could do this, why couldn't Gargoyles?

Time Travel>> All of this talk about time makes me want to bring up the Time Cube.
Somebody who knows what the Time Cube is please stop me! o_O!

JJ Gregarius
Tampa, FL
Sunday, June 6, 2004 12:09:16 AM
IP: 4.247.200.183

<*And just to add* If they don't do anything with the cartoon, eventually they may sell. >

They may sell, but they have to find someone willing to buy. Honestly, when you think of Disney properties that other companies might want to own, Gargoyles just doesn't come to mind. The fact of the matter is, Disney, as unlikely as it is, is really the most likely one to make use of the Gargoyles property.

Jimmy
Saturday, June 5, 2004 10:50:07 PM
IP: 199.74.79.167

Todd> ever since you first mentioned that observation about Demona being under the sleep spell i've thought a bit about it. and the fact is, we don't know much about magic and the sleep spell to know exactly what are the terms. in the Mirror, Puck clearly shows us that though a spell may sound like one thing, it can mean quite another! and whats more, there are many other factors that are interesting about the sleep spell. sure, it says the castle must rise above the clouds, but the spell never hints on how the castle has to rise. could a foggy day have broken the spell? probably not, but i hardly think that the writer of the grimorum intended for the castle to be broken down piece by piece and rebuilt half way around the world atop a man made building above the clouds! even Xanatos wasn't 100% confident that his efforts would break the spell, watch how he acts that night before the Clan wakes up! maybe his tinkering damaged the terms of the spell or maybe all his additions to the castle (modern electricity, heating, furnishings. etc) somehow made the spell unbreakable. did Xanatos have to transport every speck of dust and abandoned weopon to the Eyrie Building? did he use every stone taht was part of the castle? what if he had taken the castle apart and put different pieces in different buildings around the world, would that have broken the spell? what if he took all the stone and redesigned the castle, would that still break the spell?
so, as you can see, there are many unknowns about the sleep spell, and we can't assume that any of the gargoyles would've woken up even if they were not at the castle. to me, lie though it may be, Demona's story could easily be believable to Goliath and Co for no other reason than that he trusts her and has no reason to disbelieve her...

matt
Saturday, June 5, 2004 10:13:06 PM
IP: 207.230.48.87

DEMONA TAINA - I recall Xanatos saying that he thought that bringing the petrified Demona to the castle would have the same effect upon her as it did on Goliath and the other gargs.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, June 5, 2004 10:10:33 PM
IP: 4.244.18.195

Siren: I forgot to mention this in my last post, but I read about what happened to you, and I hope you have a speedy recovery. I downloaded one of your videos (I think it was titled "I Think I'm a Clone Now") and I really enjoyed it. Take care, and I hope you make more videos soon. :D

Todd Jensen: Well, I always thought that Xanatos' story worked something like this: he bought Demona before he rebuilt Castle Wyvern atop the Eyrie Building and kept her in his private collection. After the gargoyles woke up, he decided to move her to the castle as well. Besides, I don't think Xanatos would come with a story that, when you put some thought into it, is obviously a lie. What do you think?

Demona Taina
Saturday, June 5, 2004 08:10:41 PM
IP: 172.201.134.157

*And just to add* If they don't do anything with the cartoon, eventually they may sell. While they hang on to it, they are not producing anything along the same lines as say some of the more newer cartoons.

Business wise, Disney is letting go of lots of things lately. So they must either have plans, or are waiting to put it in the vault of no return, or are looking to sell. They can't afford to hang on to some things that don't produce mega return. And if it were up to Eisner, they may sell... like they are the Mighty Ducks, Disney Stores and other stuff.

Lily Doll
Saturday, June 5, 2004 08:08:39 PM
IP: 67.35.196.193

I can't say that such an undertone remark may be as carefully planted. But who knows? But I think the earlier episodes and what was said probably molded the results later, rather than looking ahead and figuring out backwards.

As a writer, sometimes you play and add on something that was once a small comment, and later grows to be meaningful.

Bronx certainly thought nothing of his name. But it's better than 'the big blue dog' they would have to call him if they never named him. As us humans need to name everything... *Winks*

Lily Doll - [lilmidnightlily@yahoo.com]
Saturday, June 5, 2004 08:03:55 PM
IP: 67.35.196.193

LILY DOLL - I doubt that Disney would ever sell the rights to "Gargoyles" to another company. After all, just think what it would be like for them if they did that and when the new company revived "Gargoyles", they made it into a smash hit - followed by the Disney execs staring at the results and saying, "And we aren't getting a dime from the profits from 'Gargoyles' because we sold it to somebody else. Doh!"

I realized that I forgot to give my comments/review of "Awakening Part Four", which I watched earlier today, in my last post, so I'm amending that here.

There are a few funny bits here with Bronx. One of the best is when Brooklyn gives him his new name, and Bronx responds by giving a disgusted-sounding snort and walking off. (To add to the humor, Lexington then comments, "I think he likes it.") Bronx gives another snort, for that matter, when Goliath tells Hudson to take Bronx along with him for the raid on the Cyberbiotics underground lab (the future Labyrinth), on the grounds that "He needs the exercise."

And then there's the bit where Hudson's watching the dog food commercial on television, a dog on that commercial lets out a bark, and Bronx lifts his head and growls in response. (I notice also that Bronx is up on the furniture in that scene, with Hudson presumably not minding. I don't know if gargoyle beasts are generally allowed on the couch - but then again, who's going to tell Bronx that he has to stay off it?)

One scene that I never get tired of: the shot of the Cyberbiotics air fortress, in particular the bit where the camera moves across the "Cyberbiotics" logo and we see all those spinning propellers mounted before it. (Does anybody else think that the airship looks a bit like the sort of thing they'd have in "Batman: TAS"? It had the right look of Gotham City's style of old-fashioned-appearing high tech about it.)

Other great moments: Goliath and Elisa shaking hands just before Goliath heading back to the castle. And Xanatos standing in front of the window after sending the gargs off on their raid.

There's one thing that I've been wondering recently about. When Demona's telling her story about how she survived for the past thousand years, claiming that she was under the Magus's spell of stone sleep alongside the rest of the clan, Xanatos adds in that he brought her to the castle shortly after Goliath and his clan awakened, figuring that moving her there could break the Magus's spell. But if you look closely at the terms of the Magus's spell, it becomes clear that that can't be right, since it said merely that the spell would last "until the castle rises above the clouds". No mention of whether or not the gargoyles have to be in the castle then. So once Castle Wyvern was installed on top of the Eyrie Building, the gargoyles would be freed from the spell regardless of whether they were in the castle or not.

Now, this doesn't make any difference, since we know from later on (especially "City of Stone") that Demona and Xanatos's story was a lie anyway. But what I can't help wondering is - did the production team deliberately put in Xanatos's claim about bringing Demona to the castle in order to awaken her as a hint to the sharper members of the audience that he and Demona were lying? (I've asked Greg Weisman about this at "Ask Greg", but unfortunately it'll be a while before he gets to that question. Pity; I do think - though I'm biased - that it's a better question than all those "Why did the show end?" questions that he keeps on getting.)

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, June 5, 2004 07:55:13 PM
IP: 4.244.18.195

After reading the thing that Siren left, (Thanks Siren!) I'm not sure if I would like to leave Gargoyles in Disney's possession at all. It has been a while since I've watched the episodes but I remember Elisa looking like a Disney princess (and acting like one sometimes too).

So if anyone does any additional episodes, I'd prefer someone other than Disney took care of it. But would they let go of something like that?

Lily Doll
Saturday, June 5, 2004 07:35:50 PM
IP: 67.35.196.193

SIREN - Actually, the future series wasn't set in the same world as "Future Tense" - and Greg eventually changed the name of it to "Gargoyles 2198" to avoid confusion. Instead, it dealt with the alien war that Nokkar was a part of finally reaching Earth, and the consequences.

I agree that simply putting in a whole new cast of characters would defeat the purpose of returning "Gargoyles" in the first place - if you're going to create a whole new cast, then you might as well create an entirely new background universe. (I've occasionally wondered whether a "Gargoyles" revival might try for a complete remake of the series, rebooting the continuity from scratch - other revived animated adventure series have done the same, such as "Batman", "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles", etc. - but I doubt that such a thing would go down well with the fans. Besides, such remakes generally seem to be done only when they're based on a very familiar original.)

There is one possible argument that Disney might follow for keeping the Goliath Chronicles canon: the fact that dropping them out of continuity might be seen as an insult to the people who worked on those episodes such as Eric Lewald, and I doubt that Disney would want that. Apart from that, it would make better sense to drop those stories and assume that they never happened.

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, June 5, 2004 06:53:13 PM
IP: 4.244.18.195

Sorry for the double post but....

Lily> click my name for a link about Greg's master plan

Siren
Saturday, June 5, 2004 04:27:06 PM
IP: 65.33.112.117

Greg's master plan involved a series of the past of thw Wyvern Clan called Dark Ages. And a series of the future based on the episode Future Tense
Siren
Saturday, June 5, 2004 03:59:03 PM
IP: 65.33.112.117

Have there been rumors of a revial? Just out of curiosity, has anyone heard of anything?

You know what would be interesting... the Gargoyles in the early years. No... you won't have Elisa Maza or some of the more modern characters. But woudn't a short series on the past be interesting? Like how Demona and Goliath grew up. And part of their history. You see glimpses in episodes but it'd make for a nice mid-evil cartoon.

Maybe there could be a Gargoyles of the future? 20 years into the future: new gargoyle kids and the old characters as well. A nice merger?

Lily Doll
Saturday, June 5, 2004 03:55:26 PM
IP: 67.35.196.193

Thanks all for the well wishes.

IMO, bringing the series back wouldn't be as difficult as thought. For one, you have all of us. The original fans. Then you have new fans everday that catch it on Toon Disney. They come to sites like this and find a large fan base.
I think TGC should not be handled at all. Act like it never happened. Look at the new Catwoman movie. They are putting the idea out that it's all about Catwoman and has nothing to do with Batman Returns, and no one is complaining. The movie is a shoe-in at the box office.

If Disney announced the ressurection of Gargoyles, this is how I feel it should go.
Have a marathon of all the episodes of gargs (except TGC), right after the start advertising for the new series. Then after Hunter's Moon, start the new series with the first new episode. That way, those who may have missed the original series can catch up. Let's also add a large ad campaign. Not Godzilla large, but plenty of commercials, maybe a new line of toys.

Disney is sitting on a gold mine. LOTR, Spiderman, Catwoman...all fantasy and superhero movies. Gargoyles has both. While they fart out series like Teacher's Pet movies like Home on the Range.

Siren
Saturday, June 5, 2004 02:35:19 PM
IP: 65.33.112.117

Lily Doll: I agree that new characters would be interesting... But then it'd feel like an entirely different show. It won't have the characters we love, it won't have Goliath and Elisa, well, it won't have many of the elements that have kept us hooked to this show for nearly ten years. What's the point of reviving the series if it won't have the same characters? It'd be like a whole new series all together. I mean, we fell in love with the show's characters, right? Why would we want to see them go?

Now, I understand why you'd want to go in that direction. Bringing back Gargoyles with TGC in the way and the seven-year-long gap would indeed be difficult. But I still believe that restarting the series with different characters is not the solution. I don't know, I'd feel as if we're giving up on them over something as unworthy as TGC.

Bringing in a new set of characters due to the length of time that has passed between "Angels in the Night" and now would indeed be easier, but consider this: maybe the series could start right after TGC, and slowly work its way to the present while reintroducing the series to the new audience? Or maybe they could start in the present, and then spend a season or two in flashback. Or let's just forget about the gap and simply tell the stories as they would've occurred after The Journey, with some "damage control" for TGC, which won't be much since that season had nothing major happen except for "Angels in the Night" and the Quarrymen becoming dull villains with no believable cause. The clones can be revived, too. But hey, we could always go for the old cliché, "it was all a dream..."

Besides, if we're still watching the 1994-1997 episodes here in the new millennium, and they still feel current (except for when Goliath says, "The 1990's," but we can ignore that) then I don't think that not specifying the year will have much of an effect on the show. We could still seamlessly work our way to the present.

Vertigo1: You mentioned having Goliath tell the stories, which would explain the monologues at the beginning of each TGC episode. That works fine, but... would Goliath seriously tell all those stories? We're talking about a guy who reads Shakespeare and Dostoyevsky. TGC just sounds so, I don't know... not like him. Plus some of those episodes are, um, below average. I just can't imagine Goliath telling the story of Bronx riding all the way to Pennsylvania on a train, or about this insane mayor kidnapping Alex and using Lexington to fuel his own hatred agenda while masquerading as a kidnapper. Or heck, let's not forget the dreaded "To Serve Mankind" episode (urge to kill... rising...)

I can imagine him making up "For it May Come True," though. Maybe it's some kind of fantasy... but still, he should've been African-American and kept his hair long!

Abby: Really? They aired Turf before the World Tour episodes? Wow, I thought only our local station did that! They'd air Turf before the World Tour, and Revelations right in the middle of the world tour. I never figured out why they kept doing that.

I watched Deadly Force on Toon Disney a few days ago. It felt great. Maybe they were jealous when Jetix aired the episode and they thought to themselves, "If ABC Family aired it, why can't we?" Now if only they'd stop cutting the scene of Elisa lying down on the floor in her own blood...

Demona Taina
Saturday, June 5, 2004 01:42:45 PM
IP: 172.133.163.185

About Harry Potter: Having read the books over the last year... I have become rather excited about this new movie. Yet I'm waiting a week so the crowds thin out a bit. I was highly impressed by the stories, the movies are the icing on the cake so far and I'm happy to see them continuing. I see they are planning number four as this one has come out.

As for a Gargoyles continuance... since there has been such a length of time between, I think it would be easier to bring in a new set of characters. But as an admirer of the old series as well... additional episodes would be appreciated.

But would any of us complain if they brought in the same high quality story and style with a new set of characters? I think we all would appreciate an addition to the world of Gargoyles. After all, there are plenty of areas to cover... and don't we all enjoy the fan fic of new characters and personal stories?

Perhaps, if someone would attempt, a comic for a new cast of Gargoyles can be produced and tested. Like similar comics that then become animated cartoons?

Lily Doll - [lilmidnightlily@yahoo.com]
Saturday, June 5, 2004 11:28:52 AM
IP: 67.35.197.18

Todd -
<I suppose that the real question would be which we find more important: Goliath and his clan, or the world in which they live.>

Well, if we consult the "Top 5" list from weeks back, the overwhelming #1 response (93%, in fact) was the characters. That pretty much speaks for itself.
The #2 reason was plot development. "228 respondents (49%) listed the series' ongoing saga, its story arcs". Kinda tough to maintain maintain those story arcs with a whole new cast. It could be possible, but probably not nearly as engaging.
#3 was literary, mythological, historical & biblical references and #4 was animation, but #5 was voice acting. If you are going to have a whole new cast of characters, I think you have to have a whole new cast of voice actors (although I guess you could just have Jeff Bennett do every character and no one would probably notice until they saw the credits).

By the looks of that top 5 list, I think people are much more attached to the characters. In my opinion, starting with a similar concept, but a fresh new cast, would be a major step down from other possibilities (i.e. continuing the series with TGC as canon, picking up after "The Journey" or "Hunter's Moon" and simply ignoring TGC, starting the Dark Ages series, etc.)

Peace

Z
Saturday, June 5, 2004 10:44:00 AM
IP: 67.66.158.173

I disagree with you Todd because there is so much left unfinished with the original two seasons.
Paul Cousins
GA, USA
Friday, June 4, 2004 11:16:42 PM
IP: 68.220.21.107

No review of "Awakening Part Four" today - I went to see "Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban", so I'll have to wait for another day or so before watching my tape. Maybe I'll do watch it this weekend or Monday; I'll just have to see.

* SPOILERS *

Harry Potter is set in a different universe than the Gargoyles one, of course, but I noticed from the time travel sequence that they follow the same rules for going back in time as "Gargoyles" did; you don't change the past, but were part of it. This becomes especially the case when we discover, from Harry's little trip back in time, where the Patronus that scared the dementors off himself and Sirius *really* came from.

* SPOILERS END *

LILY DOLL - That's an interesting notion, although I don't know how well it'd work out. A lot of "Gargoyles" fans might not be so thrilled with a return of the series that didn't have the familiar clan in the lead roles. On the other hand, "Star Trek" managed to get revived with a whole new cast of regulars, Tolkien, when he wrote his sequel to "The Hobbit", had a new group of hobbits as the regulars with Bilbo retiring at the beginning, and C. S. Lewis's later "Chronicles of Narnia" had other protagonists than the Pevensies from "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe". I suppose that the real question would be which we find more important: Goliath and his clan, or the world in which they live. What do you think?

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Friday, June 4, 2004 07:04:24 PM
IP: 4.244.18.77

A few comments on Todd's "Awakening" ramblings (I enjoy reading these too; maybe I'll get the tape out this weekend for another viewing):

For Part One, Todd wrote: "I still wonder how many people thought Demona was really dead at the end of this episode…"

My experience is not typical, from what I've read here, since I didn't see the series during its original run, but only when it later appeared in syndication on "The Disney Afternoon." The episodes were aired out of order (notably, "Turf" appeared before any of the Avalon or World Tour episodes, so the presence of Angela was puzzling at first). "Awakening Part One" was one of the last episodes I saw. While we had deduced much of the background from the episodes we had seen, it was great to actually get to see this episode. So I knew Demona would be back, if only because I lost the suspense of the series by seeing the episodes out of order. I agree with Todd's observation that the end sequence (Elisa's "I'm going to find out" going into the opening sequence) was a very stirring one.

For Part Two, he muses as to the role of Hakon's pride in his illiteracy being a contributing factor in the gargoyles ending up in their 1000-year stone sleep. I hadn't thought of it this way, but it makes a lot of sense, especially in light of the connection with the literacy emphasis in "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time."

For Part Three, Todd contrasts the climb up the Eyrie Building with another "dizzying point" in "The Silver Falcon" when Elisa is out on the falcon sculpture. I've wondered why she goes out there the last time with Dominic Dracon. He might be old, but he's still a mobster seeking his lost gems, and it just seems a little unwise (IMO) for a policewoman to put herself in a place where Dracon could so easily "dispose" of her (Broadway had rescued her earlier, but was now busy with Tony's helicopter, so he likely wouldn't be around to catch her again).



Abby
Minneapolis, MN
Friday, June 4, 2004 11:47:08 AM
IP: 161.225.1.12

Not to interupt, but would additional episodes need the same characters? Perhaps a new set of characters could be produced. There are many ways to take any additional episodes.

In fact, if someone could get permission, one could possibly create a completely new set of characters dealing with a new set of humans and ancient myths to intervine. A whole new series could lead, also, to meeting the gargoyle clan in New York.

It's a world of possabilities.

Lily Doll - [lilmidnightlily@yahoo.com]
Friday, June 4, 2004 10:52:08 AM
IP: 67.35.197.5

Jim R, they skipped Gargoyles both last Saturday and Sunday on Jetix. Gargoyles returns back on schedule this weekend.
Paul Cousins
GA, USA
Friday, June 4, 2004 12:58:01 AM
IP: 68.220.21.107

Todd -
<The tone is of somebody who feels lost and confused in this strange new world, so different from what he's used to - and sadly aware that he may be too old and set in his ways to be able to adjust to it. (This especially comes across when Bronx is whimpering confusedly and Hudson says to him, "I know how you feel, boy. It's a strange new world.")>

Just another outstanding example of why Gargoyles is so great. This part of the script could be easily forgetable, but it's not. There's such a great combination of writing, artwork, and voice acting that makes the scene (as well as countless others in the series) so complete. It's one of many moments that could very easily fall short of it's potential if it lacked any of those three components; but with the outstanding writing, animation, and voice acting that is customary in Gargoyles, such scenes end up being so much more than blow off moments. I think this scene embodies that as well as any.

<"a living tapestry". (Very poetic.)>

I actually like Xanatos's response even better. "Your naivete is refreshing, Goliath". So true. My how we fail to appreciate the wonders around us. I wish I could remain as enamored with the concept of a television as Goliath was. 'Tis a shame that we must inevitably take things for granted over time. 'Tis a shame indeed.


Awakening One through Five really does have a lot of great quotes (I'll just stick with the first three episodes so as not to steal your thunder, Todd):

Goliath: I've been denied everything! Even my revenge!

Lexington: Are you a viking?

Goliath: It's like a...a living tapestry.
Xanatos: Your naivete is refreshing, Goliath.

Hudson: Does the sky need a name? Does the river?
Eliza: The river's called the 'Hudson'.


You know, Todd, you might as well keep a log of all of your reflections over the episodes. Never know when they might come in handy for you. Anyway, keep 'em comin'. They're a good read and they're sure to spark conversation.

Peace

Z
Thursday, June 3, 2004 11:24:55 PM
IP: 66.143.159.138

Siren> That's terrible! :-( Get well soon. I really enjoy your videos. I'm rushing to the finish line trying to get something neat of my own before the Gathering 2004 mail-in deadline on July 1. Do either you or Nickerous plan to submit your own?

One other question, what happened to Gargoyles on Jetix last Saturday? I surely hope featuring Digimon was just a one weekend only thing. If it got moved, can anyone post the new timeslot?

Jim R. - [jim@dialwforwarp.com]
Thursday, June 3, 2004 11:17:57 PM
IP: 69.34.28.16

Todd, I wouldn't not worry to much about Disney's cheap sequels, they have already angered Pixar and Dreamworks (and these companies' fans) for their plans to create cheap CGI sequels of their block-buster movies.

Maybe Einser wants to kill the CGI departments at Disney next.

Eventually, in the next couple of months to couple of years, Eisner is going to get thrown out.

But I agree with William, it will be at least two of three years from now before the enviroment at Disney will be right to continue Gargoyles.

Paul Cousins
GA, USA
Thursday, June 3, 2004 09:25:08 PM
IP: 68.159.213.229

CKAYOTE - I think that it helped that they used "Hell" there in the "literal" sense rather than in the "swear-word" sense.

Saw my tape of "Awakening Part Three" today. A landmark ep, with Goliath and Elisa first meeting, plus the introductions of Brendan, Margot, and Vinnie (though the production team didn't know then that they were introducing Vinnie, of course).

One of my favorite bits remains Hudson's bewildered comments about why humans insist on naming everything. Another is when Goliath picks up Elisa to go gliding with her over the city, they exchange a smile for a moment, and then break off when they see Hudson watching them.

One thing that I like about the portrayal of Hudson, by the way, is how they were able to make him the gargoyle least enthusiastic about the changes in the modern world (apart from television, of course), without making him unsympathetic. The tone is of somebody who feels lost and confused in this strange new world, so different from what he's used to - and sadly aware that he may be too old and set in his ways to be able to adjust to it. (This especially comes across when Bronx is whimpering confusedly and Hudson says to him, "I know how you feel, boy. It's a strange new world.")

Some of the trio scenes in Part Three feel almost like they could have come from the original comedy conception (constantly bumping into each other in the kitchen a la a gargoyle version of the Three Stooges).

Another favorite bit: the scene where Xanatos is telling Goliath about the "Cyberbiotics raid" that stole the discs - especially where he's explaining the discs in terms that Goliath can understand as magical talismans, and when Goliath, awe-struck by Xanatos's monitor, describes it as like "a living tapestry". (Very poetic.)

I found myself, this time around, thinking that I was glad that I wasn't in Elisa's place when Goliath was carrying her back up the side of the Eyrie Building on his back almost all the way - imagine the tremendous drop below all that time (and it would have been a long time in view of how tall the Eyrie Building is). I don't think that I could have handled it. (Though, for me, the real "dizzying height" point in the series is in "The Silver Falcon" where Elisa and Dominic Dracon are out on that falcon sculpture.)

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, June 3, 2004 07:47:50 PM
IP: 4.245.18.154

William -
<Considering the passage of time, I don't think there were enough big events in TGC to warrant a number of episodes devoted to setting things right. Instead, the 10+ year gap would pretty much allow for a fresh start.>

That's an interesting idea that I hadn't thought of. But I don't think I'd like to see everything fast forwarded 10 years. Sure, they could fill in a lot of what happened through flashbacks and what not, but I have an inkling that I would not like the feel of the series if it just picked up the gargoyles' lives about 10 years later in 2007ish. Heck, I'd still watch it, though. But that definitely would not be my first choice of rectification.

Paul -
<all things considered I think if they just drop TGC and never mentioned it again, I think most people would not even realize it was gone; only the diehard fans would remember it and would be glad it was gone.>

That's probably true to some extent. But that time, it would be at least 10 years ago. Many folks would not even realize that much of what happens contradicts the TGC episodes. I would not be at all opposed to that. I could very easily ignore that TGC ever existed.

Peace

Z
Thursday, June 3, 2004 11:47:53 AM
IP: 66.143.159.138

Barefoot into Hell: I like the quote, it really tipifies Xanatos. But watching Awakening, Part 2 10 years after the fact, I'm really surprised they were allowed to say "Hell".

Paul: Yeah, they could pull a Star Trek and change major things and not give any explanation.

Todd/Paul: Yeah, I feel the same way. They slaughtered too many (if not all) of the loose threads. There's not enough to pick up from without introducing a bunch of new stuff right off the bat.

CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Thursday, June 3, 2004 10:55:25 AM
IP: 65.244.171.25

I still think that you'd pretty much have to ignore the Goliath Chronicles to continue the series, since "Angels in the Night" was done as too much of a "They lived happily ever after" ending, with no new threads introduced to continue on from Castaway's defeat. (Of course, that might not be a problem for Disney, in light of their habit of doing direct-to-video sequels of movies that didn't need sequels to begin with....)
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, June 3, 2004 09:00:54 AM
IP: 4.245.17.146

::Throws it into reverse and tosses an "h" "v" and "e" out the driver's side window then peels back out of the comment room.::
kathy
Thursday, June 3, 2004 08:39:48 AM
IP: 66.82.192.1

::Drive by Gathering Plug::

It's just over two months until The Gathering, have you made you're travel arrangements yet? We a room and ride share board if you're looking for a way to cut expenses or just have some company to enjoy the festivities with. Click the "Forum" link at the top of the webpage and find a friend.

Are you confirmed and have two hours to spare? Volunteer! Drop me an email at Volunteer AT gatheringofthegargoyles DOT com and let me know how you can help out. Thanks!

http://www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com

The Gathering. It's like "ASK GREG" without the two year wait.

kathy
Thursday, June 3, 2004 08:37:06 AM
IP: 66.82.192.1

William, that is only 3 years from now (TGC came on in 1997), but all things considered I think if they just drop TGC and never mentioned it again, I think most people would not even realize it was gone; only the diehard fans would remember it and would be glad it was gone.
Paul Cousins
GA, USA
Thursday, June 3, 2004 04:56:55 AM
IP: 68.159.213.229

Considering that if Gargoyles was continued, it would probably be ten years minimum since TGC, would TGC really even need to be extensively dealt with. Just as Gargoyles original took place in 1994-95, if I recall correctly I believe Greg said new episodes would also take place during basically the same year the episodes aired.

Considering a lot can happen in 10+ years, it seems to me that the longer the amount of time that passes before new episodes are greenlighted, the easier it is to ignore TGC and to instead chalk up any inconsistencies to changes over the years. Some things might have to be dealt with eventually, like the clones being turned to stone, but that could just be dealt with as necessary.

Considering the passage of time, I don't think there were enough big events in TGC to warrant a number of episodes devoted to setting things right. Instead, the 10+ year gap would pretty much allow for a fresh start.
William C. Maune - [Meteo@ToonZone.net]
Columbia, MO, United States
Thursday, June 3, 2004 04:01:35 AM
IP: 12.227.156.40

Todd: (I also get a kick out of the fact that, just after Xanatos makes his "Pay a man enough and he'll walk barefoot into Hell")

That is one of my all time favorite quotes of the Gargoyles series.

Paul Cousins
GA, USA
Thursday, June 3, 2004 03:22:16 AM
IP: 68.159.213.229

CKayote, thank you.

Now that I think about it, can you actually justify the cost of using TGC as canon. By that I mean, if Gargoyles was continued, it would probably first be as a 13 episode season to test the waters and with only 13 episodes you cannot afford to use 5 or 6 of those episodes as 'damage control' for TGC. As such it would be better from both a fanbase and financial point of view to just find a way to junk the TGC and go from the end of season 2 onward...

Paul Cousins
GA, USA
Thursday, June 3, 2004 03:20:01 AM
IP: 68.159.213.229

Todd: I though you'd say that. We've had this conversation before, but let's keep on the topic here.
Can anyone else think of a way to restart Gargoyles using the Goliath Chronicles as canon?

CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Thursday, June 3, 2004 12:38:25 AM
IP: 65.244.171.25

I seriously doubt that I'll be seeing the "King Arthur" movie; it sounds too much like a simple war movie that just happens to be set in 5th century Britain. It doesn't hold much appeal to me at all.

I saw my tape of "Awakening Part Two" today. One thought that I recently had about it (and I wish that "Ask Greg" was functional so that I could submit this question to it) was the bit where Hakon's burning pages from the Grimorum Arcanorum, while commenting about how glad he is that he can't read. Greg's mentioned that he's not keen on illiteracy, and "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time" made his thoughts on the subject of being able to read very clear. But now I'm wondering whether some of that also got into that scene in "Awakening", where Hakon's being illiterate and proud of it is a contributing factor to the destruction of the Magus's counterspell, meaning that the gargoyles are trapped in their stone sleep for the next thousand years. I'd really like to ask Greg about that.

I still think that New York looks very impressive - and alien - in the scene where Goliath and his clan awaken there for the first time. It's one of the great moments in the series.

I also get a kick out of the fact that, just after Xanatos makes his "Pay a man enough and he'll walk barefoot into Hell", we see a close-up of one of his workmen's feet.

Another of my favorite parts of this episode is the details in the fight scene with the commandos, which illustrate how new the gargoyles are to the modern world: Lexington asking the female commando if she's a Viking, the clan being convinced from the weaponry that the commandos are using that they're sorcerers, and Hudson mistaking their helicopter for a dragon. And then there's the bit where we see Bronx chasing one of the commandos about, barking furiously. (I've sometimes thought that it'd be kind of fun to have a scene where, after Bronx is chasing a bad guy around, he comes back a little later proudly carrying a piece of the seat of the bad guy's trousers in his mouth as a trophy, but I suppose that that would be more appropriate for a comedy than for a serious drama.)

Xanatos and Owen get their introductions; Owen gets only a brief bit but already he's coming across as a very interesting and memorable figure.

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, June 2, 2004 06:52:45 PM
IP: 4.244.12.132

Todd> I was wondering if you've seen anything on the new King Arthur Movie and if you are going to see it or not. I remember from 2001 that you said you woulnd't watch "The Mists of Avalon."

I thought it looked pretty good in the trailer I saw ( most of what I know about K.A. came from Gargoyles, Disney's the Sword in the Stone and a documentary I say on Discovery.)


That is All I will say.

Battle Beast
CANADAWednesday, June 2, 2004 04:29:04 PM
IP: 142.59.132.116

CKAYOTE - I doubt that your second solution (the Timedancer-related one) would work, since Greg Weisman's already mentioned that he doesn't go in for alternate timelines (at least, not where "Gargoyles" is concerned).

Z - Would "Dark Ages" work? I certainly find the notion of a series set entirely in the medieval period appealing (and when "Gargoyles" first came out, I sometimes wished while watching the flashback sequences that they could do a prequel series about the gargoyles' adventures before the Wyvern Massacre, even before I became aware of Greg's Master Plan). However, I suspect that it would be difficult to convince the execs at Disney about it, since they'd probably believe that few people would be interested in watching a series set in a low-tech setting like 10th century Scotland. I recall people here also bringing up other possible objections to it (we already know how it's going to turn out so that there'd be the "prequelitis" issue, and the fact that so many of the new gargoyles introduced would be ones that we know are doomed to being killed by the Vikings in 994).

Of course, with Disney shutting down so many of its animation studios, I wonder now whether they could bring back "Gargoyles" by now even if they wanted to, but that's another story....

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, June 2, 2004 07:37:41 AM
IP: 4.244.12.231

Anybody notice the recent answer to my question of how many seasons to make Timedancer?

Honestly, I would prefer Timedancer over most of the series because it is so independent and it allows the writer to add lots more material to the gargoyles universe. Yes, I'm probably one of the few who enjoyed the world tour because it finally fleshed out some more of the universe.

The 1st world tour episode I saw was "Monsters" and I went What the heck? What happenned to Demona's coloring? (I hadn't seen Avalon parts 1-3 or any of the previous world tour episodes at the time) Then I realized it wasn't Demona but somebody new. :-)

If it fooled me, I'm sure almost all the audience who paid attention guessed Angela's parentage right off the bat.

DPH
AR, USA
Wednesday, June 2, 2004 04:27:21 AM
IP: 67.14.195.27

Actually, the best way to handle TGC IMO is to have it be a story that Goliath made up as a "dream" for humans and gargoyles to be friends. That would explain the voiceover by Keith David at the start of every episode, and why things are a bit...off from the previous two seasons.
Vertigo1
TN, USA
Wednesday, June 2, 2004 12:41:58 AM
IP: 66.119.34.57

As much as I'd love to see Gargoyles return, even if it means that TGC must be considered canon, I still contest that the best bet for Gargoyles returning in any form would be in the form of the Dark Ages series as there would be no need to tip toe around any land mines that were set by TGC.

Paul - <Having Brooklyn find the Phoenix Gate and becoming a Timedancer; coming back 5 minutes later, 40 years older, with his wife and kids in-toe.>

If Gargoyles was to be salvaged with TGC regarded as canon, I think that anything Timedancer related would have to wait. As you have put it, there would be much "damage control" necessary. The only feasible way for Brooklyn to return 40 years older would require a seperate Timedancer spinoff post-haste in ensuing episodes. I don't think that the majority of the viewing audience, including myself, would be willing to simply accept that Brooklyn's Timedancing adventure has occurred w/o a subsequent series surrounding his travels. I would think that there would have to be some sort of spinoff series that would accompany the main series. So, I don't think that the Timedancer portion of Greg's master plan would be included in your list of quick fixes. I would have to imagine that the only way anything Timedancer related would ever come into play would be towards the end of the hypothetical first returning season of Gargoyles.

Actually, now that I think about it, Brooklyn returning 40 years older with a family would make a pretty darn good cliffhanger for a season-ender (I guess the returning season of Gargoyles would be season 4). That way, Gargoyles could return the following Fall with the 5th season of the mainline Gargoyles story along with the 1st season of Timedancer simultaneously. That could be one possibility if Greg was to ever put the Timedancer scenario into play.

Todd - <I wasn't certain what to make of "Gargoyles" when I first heard about it, but after seeing the first episode (especially once the flashback began), I was definitely excited about it.>

Yes, the first episode still stands as my favorite of them all. It's amazing how much actually happened in just 30 minutes (less with commercials) in "Awakenings Part I", yet absolutely none of it felt forced or rushed. So much was established about the Gargoyles culture. Numerous characters were already well-defined and interacted well. The battle scene was quite impressive for a cartoon. That episode has as good of animation as any in the series. It was great how they showed the blood dripping from Goliath's hand. Well, I could go on and on.

<"But what do you call each other?" and Brooklyn answers "Friend." It was that latter moment where I definitely decided that I liked gargoyles.>

Indeed, probably my favorite moment of the entire series. Nothing embodies the idealism of the gargoyles better than that light-hearted scene and especially that simple response by Brooklyn.

<I still think that it's a pity that they dropped the idea of showing one of the dogs in the great hall helping himself to somebody's food immediately after Princess Katharine is disgustedly talking about "beasts in the dining hall" (Greg mentioned that in his ramble for this episode)>

Wow. I never heard about that little bit. I wish that would have been in there. That would have been a great inclusion to the rest of the scene.


Peace

Z
Wednesday, June 2, 2004 12:30:51 AM
IP: 66.143.159.138

Okay: I have 2 ideas.

1 is the old-fashioned 'it never happened' thing. Start with a guy in an expensive, but poorly lit room reading off a summary of everything that happend "The Journey" on. He finishes and says, "And that is what we project will happen with 98% certainity". A mysterious figure sitting behind a big desk (possibliy Duval, or a new character) says something like "That is unsatisfactory. Alter the variables and try again."
The point of that being that the TGC was just the course of events some ominous force predicted happening. It hasn't happened yet.

#2 is more original. The camera starts off showing the events of "Angels in the Night" (the train sequence? I don't know), then zooms way back to a rooftop where Brooklyn and a second figure are watching it happen.
Brooklyn says something along the lines of "That never happened. I'm/We're in the wrong timeline again." The second person says "Are you sure? You/We worked so hard to it get it right this time." Then Brooklyn says "I'd think I'd remember this if it had happened to me. I/We have to change stuff agian." There's a pause, and the flames from the Phoenix Gate envelop both of them or just Brooklyn.

Hope that wasn't to long to read. Oh and, Happy Birthday Paul!

CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Tuesday, June 1, 2004 11:00:39 PM
IP: 65.244.171.25

Alright William C. Maune, I get your point.

Todd, would you say that 'logical conclusions' are not 'original ideas', but the possible natural courses of the series?

Like for example, given the emotional/mental Hell that Demona has put herself through for the past 1000 years might lead her to having a mental/nervious breakdown (if she had had one yet (a 1000 years is a long time), being commited to an insane asylum, or (when a combined with her hatred of humanity and Puck's spell) a split-personality (one gargoyle, one human).

These are not so much 'original ideas', but 'logical conclusions'.

Paul Cousins
GA, USA
Tuesday, June 1, 2004 10:05:29 PM
IP: 68.159.213.229

CKAYOTE - Please don't let the "original idea" element stop you from posting your thoughts here; Greg doesn't read the comment room often enough or closely enough to jeopardize matters (and I think that he deliberately chooses to only skim the place so that we will be able to speak freely). I'd really like to see some more discussion of that.

I watched my tape of "Awakening Part One" today (as the beginning of my annual "Gargoyles Summer Tape Review"). This is still one of my favorite bits of the series: the introduction of the gargoyles, the 10th century Scottish scenes, the battle with the Vikings, etc. I wasn't certain what to make of "Gargoyles" when I first heard about it, but after seeing the first episode (especially once the flashback began), I was definitely excited about it.

My favorite non-action bits include the scene where Goliath and Demona are talking about the way that Princess Katharine was treating the gargoyles after the confrontation in the great hall (I don't know about anyone else here, but the portrayal of Demona being livid about the mistreatment of the clan and Goliath calmly pointing out that it's human nature to fear what they don't understand reminded me a lot of "X-Men" - I'd seen some episodes of the FOX animated version at the time - it could easily have been, with a few changes, an argument between Professor Xavier and Magneto over the persecution of mutants by humans) and the bit where the trio befriend Tom (before his mother has to go and ruin it all) - especially when Tom, bewildered by gargoyles not having names, asks "But what do you call each other?" and Brooklyn answers "Friend." It was that latter moment where I definitely decided that I liked gargoyles.

I get a kick out of the expression on Broadway's face when he's examining the slime in the rookery, just before he eats it.

I still think that it's a pity that they dropped the idea of showing one of the dogs in the great hall helping himself to somebody's food immediately after Princess Katharine is disgustedly talking about "beasts in the dining hall" (Greg mentioned that in his ramble for this episode); I thought that it would have played up the irony over how some beasts clearly are more welcome in the hall than others (and at least Goliath and Demona weren't eating anybody else's food).

I still wonder sometimes how many people thought that Demona really was dead at the end of this episode, when Goliath is standing grief-stricken over what he thought were her remains. (I can't remember what I thought then, unfortunately; I probably suspected that she'd be back on the grounds that she had too big a role in this first episode to be gone for the rest of the series.)

One last bit that I really like - when they show the "coming attractions" for Part Two that ends with Elisa saying to Officer Morgan that she doesn't know what was going on up there "but I'm going to find out", and as she speaks, the theme music of "Gargoyles" starts up, leading directly into the "opening sequence" with the sunlight rushing across the landscape. I found that a very stirring moment.

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, June 1, 2004 07:44:32 PM
IP: 4.245.19.192

Paul Cousins,

1) I didn't lock the thread.
2) The old thread was locked because it was outdated. Comcast is no longer trying to acquire Disney, etc.
3) When the old thread was locked a new thread was created, and it was stickied to the top of the board. It is located here: http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=112465
William C. Maune - [Meteo@ToonZone.net]
Columbia, MO, United States
Tuesday, June 1, 2004 07:01:47 PM
IP: 12.227.156.40

Back on topic, CKayote, how would you handle post-TGC?
Paul Cousins
GA, USA
Tuesday, June 1, 2004 06:26:49 PM
IP: 68.159.213.229

William C. Maune: "For the record, any and all discussion of Eisner and his actions is not banned. It is just contained to one thread on the Disney Forum. It becomes impossible to discuss other Disney topics when Eisner discussion pops up in every thread. This is why it is now contained to the one thread."

You locked the thread it is being discussed on, so how can it be discussed.

Paul Cousins
GA, USA
Tuesday, June 1, 2004 06:25:24 PM
IP: 68.159.213.229

William C. Maune: "For the record, any and all discussion of Eisner and his actions is not banned. It is just contained to one thread on the Disney Forum. It becomes impossible to discuss other Disney topics when Eisner discussion pops up in every thread. This is why it is now contained to the one thread."

You locked the topic it is being discussed on, so how can it be discussed.

Paul Cousins
GA, USA
Tuesday, June 1, 2004 06:24:54 PM
IP: 68.159.213.229

Paul Cousins -> I'm not sure what you mean about "lacking the guts." I don't moderate Toon Zone's Disney Forum, I lead the Toonami Forum there. I discussed the decision with the other mods, but it was not ultimately my decision to make.

For the record, any and all discussion of Eisner and his actions is not banned. It is just contained to one thread on the Disney Forum. It becomes impossible to discuss other Disney topics when Eisner discussion pops up in every thread. This is why it is now contained to the one thread.

This is not really the best place to be discussing this, but I thought I needed to defend myself here. Paul, if you have any further comments regarding this, please keep it at Toon Zone. We have the thread on the Disney Forum, there is a Feedback & Suggestions Forum and moderators are available directly through Private Messaging.

Now back to your regularly scheduled Gargoyles discussion.
William C. Maune - [Meteo@ToonZone.net]
Columbia, Missouri, USA
Tuesday, June 1, 2004 05:36:32 PM
IP: 168.166.196.40

CKayote, this is NOT a Disney forum, so I don't want to discuss here how you are wrong, but if you can find a decent forum to discuss this at, I would be more than happy to continue this conversation.
Paul Cousins
GA, USA
Tuesday, June 1, 2004 05:21:07 PM
IP: 68.159.213.229

Disney having money troubles: As a central Floridian, I find it inconcievable that Disney would go bankrupt. In fact it was a big deal around here just about a month ago that Disney 3rd quarter announcement (the real thing, not a projection) showed 75% growth that period.
I would really like to know where that information is coming from....

Keeping TGC: It was my idea, so I might as well post on it. My opinion is it is an overcomable delimema. I know how I would get around it, but it involves at least one original idea, so I won't post it.

CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Tuesday, June 1, 2004 04:45:11 PM
IP: 65.244.171.25

Todd, thank you and like I said, it would take 5 or 6 damage control episodes. Handling the Quarrymen might be a problem, but not impossible.

By the way, the admins at Toonzone has banned any and all discussion about the actions of Einser and his board. That is sort of like being on the Titantic and being banned from discussing the impact with the iceberg and the fact the ship is sinking. (And William CM, I know your the one behind this, too bad you lack the guts to do it yourself.)

So anyone know a good forum that has discussion about what is going currently at Disney?

Paul Cousins
GA, USA
Tuesday, June 1, 2004 01:06:51 PM
IP: 68.159.213.229

PAUL - Happy birthday, a day late!

To me, the big challenge of continuing with the anti-gargoyle attitudes (at least, in a major role) after "Angels in the Night" would be the fact that the Goliath Chronicles pretty much milked that aspect of "Gargoyles" dry; I'm not certain that they could do that much more with it without becoming repetitive.

I think that the Quarrymen would, after "Angels in the Night", be in jail (with maybe one or two exceptions); the evidence was that the whole group (apart perhaps from Maxwell, Margot's assistant) took part in the attack on the train, which means that they'd all be facing some hefty prison time. Even the Illuminati would have difficulty getting them out of prison in a legal fashion (as opposed to simply organizing a break-out) after that (and I suspect that the Illuminati would, in fact, be more likely to abandon Castaway and his followers altogether after the passenger train incident). I think that the events in "Angels in the Night" would have had the same impact on the Quarrymen as Fox's taking a fashion model hostage and Jackal and Hyena's attempt to assassinate Xanatos had on the Pack - permanently squashing their "respectable" status.

I also think that, after the way that the Quarrymen were portrayed in the Goliath Chronicles, they don't have much hope left for being fleshed out and made more three-dimensional in a series where all of the Goliath Chronicles episodes are canonical. The evidence is that, after "The Journey", they seem to have become almost all "professional thugs" (the only exceptions being the hospital attendant in "The Dying of the Light" and Maxwell in "Angels in the Night") rather than a mixture of people from all walks of life. They clearly cared so little for the city that they were willing to endanger human lives, even all of New York; not one Quarryman is shown protesting the idea of shooting off heavy artillery in downtown Manhattan or attacking a train full of humans just to get rid of two gargoyles who have already been safely incarcerated by the authorities and who therefore are no longer a menace to the public. (They don't seem to have any problems hiring Jackal and Hyena to set up a plan that would damage a Los Angeles landmark either.) On top of all that, they clearly know the truth about the gargoyles, judging from their strategy of setting up phony cases of people in distress for the gargoyles to rescue and Castaway's own announcement in "Angels in the Night" that the gargs wouldn't abandon helpless people. Frankly, in light of this and the Quarrymen's general brutality, I can't help but suspect that the real reason why they were going after the gargoyles wasn't a case of "humans fear what they do not understand", but a case rather of the Quarrymen being mostly violent criminals who wanted the gargoyles out of the way both to stop the clan from interfering in their "fun" and to get revenge on them for past foilings - that it was no more xenophobia than, say, the criminals of Gotham City trying to get rid of Batman.

After "Angels in the Night", therefore, the Quarrymen are more or less used up. They're dull villains, too one-dimensional to be the basis of good character-centered stories like Xanatos or Demona or Macbeth. They don't have enough individual characterization (being almost all of them a faceless mob) to go for the route of "comically quirky villains" like Jackal and Hyena or Sevarius that makes the best route for relatively simply-characterized antagonists in "Gargoyles". And after their public track record, I doubt that any basically well-intentioned citizens who are simply afraid of the gargoyles would be likely to join them for the purpose of providing some variety any more than they would join the Pack or Dracon's gang. They've reached the bottom of the barrel; there's nowhere to go from there.

The best hope of continuing the element would be to have Jon adopt a new identity, dropping the Castaway one (after somehow getting out of prison) and trying some other anti-gargoyle scheme that hopefully won't lend itself to being dependent on a mass of one-dimensional thugs. (Admittedly, "Angels in the Night" still supplies the problem of Castaway being consciously aware of the true nature of gargoyles, something that he shouldn't be aware of after St. Damien's Cathedral - his continuing to function with enough of a semblance of rationality to do things like set up an organization of gargoyle-killers depends on his believing that the gargoyles are evil monsters, since without it, he can't hide from himself the fact that he, and not the clan, is responsible for Jason's condition.) But the best that the Quarrymen can hope for after the Goliath Chronicles, IMO, is to dwindle into occasional minor villains on the level of the three street thugs. That, or to have Castaway replace the lot of them with robots in Quarryman uniforms (a la the Foot Clan in the old "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" cartoon), with himself as the only human left in the organization (which would demolish a lot of the bigotry theme).

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, June 1, 2004 07:37:12 AM
IP: 4.244.12.62

Thank you Battle Beast.
Paul Cousins
GA, USA
Tuesday, June 1, 2004 01:36:12 AM
IP: 68.159.213.229

Well, Rac, if that was the case then I would say there would have to be 5 or 6 'damage control' episodes. Basically episodes that would have to be used to fix the problems in TGC; the fixes would probably be;

Getting the relationships of Goliath and Elisa, and Broadway and Angela back on track.

Curing the clones (I think this is why Greg told us about that 'little' trick the Praying Gargoyle statue can do). :D

Having Brooklyn find the Phoenix Gate and becoming a Timedancer; coming back 5 minutes later, 40 years older, with his wife and kids in-toe.

Making Demona have a 3D personality again.

Bringing back Macbeth.

Have Xanatos become a little more 'morally questionable' in his actions.

The death of Halcyon Renard.

Introducing the Ultra Pack.

Fleshing out the Quarrymen.

Finding out WHAT THE HELL Titania whispered into Fox's ear at the end of "The Gathering Part Two".


I think you guys get the idea.

Paul Cousins
GA, USA
Tuesday, June 1, 2004 01:33:29 AM
IP: 68.159.213.229

I'd take any new Garoyles episodes that I can get. I'm a die-hard fan and I want more! :) Preferably with Greg in control since he would atleast know the backstory and how things are supposed to go rather than some newbie that might watch a few episodes and go from there. Even if TGC were to be treated as canonical, it did start to get better from the abysmal bunch of episodes it was so Greg might be able to do something alot better with it. They got a decent animation team to do the last two episodes so its obvious they were probably going to do something better, but wrapped it up instead. Hell, for all intents and purpose, the quarrymen could still be around even though the "big bad boss" is in jail....but I have a feeling everyone is sick of those masked morons. :P
Vertigo1
TN, USA
Tuesday, June 1, 2004 01:31:30 AM
IP: 207.65.41.152

Siren> Sorry to hear! Hope you are feeling better soon!

Paul> Happy birthday!

and in the spirit of Memorial day (which I do not celebrate because I am a Canadian) I watched Born on the Fourth of July, quite possibly the best anti-war movie this side of All Quite on the Western Front.

I loved it. It is one of my very favourite movies. You can read my review hear

http://www.geocites.com/oscarmovs/4july.html

That is all I will say.

Battle Beast
CANADATuesday, June 1, 2004 01:25:48 AM
IP: 142.59.132.116

Got to stop lurking so often...

Gargoyles continues with TGC as canon? If that was the only way, it had better be under Weisman's full control. I'm sure he can think of something to get around that roadblock and simply have the rest of his plan occur a bit later in the time line. Who knows how many converts the gargoyles really got on that last episode, Angels of the Night? (hope that is the correst name) People can easily be fired or have their opinions changed by people in power (and hopefully the Illuminati isn't just a weapons dealer according to TGC, could just say those guys were lower level members that have since been removed or something, maybe they were just a minot group in charge of that section?). So long as Weisman has things the way he needs them to be, it can still work and work well.

Disney going bankrupt? I've lurk on that same forum that Paul goes to so I have some idea of what he's talking about. Still can't wrap my head around a really large company going bankrupt and even potentially selling its property. But for assumption sake, I would guess that Gargoyles has a good chance of being sold since it doesn't seem to be regarded as a Disney label( Likw Disney' Mickey Mouse, Disney's Lion King, Disney's such and such. Don't believe there was any association of Disney with Gargoyles unless you stayed to watch the show credits). I would also hope cartoon network picks it up since they seem to have some decent shows up there, don't know how edited they are though...

Rac
Troy, NY, USA
Monday, May 31, 2004 11:01:01 PM
IP: 24.194.36.92

Siren> Sorry about your injuries. Hope you get well soon!

I'd like to see Gargoyles continue no matter what. As long as the right people are doing the show. If Disney halfway does it, I'll not be a happy camper. Then again, if Disney is going bankrupt, perhaps they'll entertain the idea of selling Gargoyles.

Nickerous - [nickerous@yahoo.com]
SC, USA
Monday, May 31, 2004 10:46:44 PM
IP: 66.220.75.4

Well Todd, if no one else want s to talk about it, I would be more than happy to continue the conversation.

By the way, for anyone who have not been looking at what's going at Disney, it looks like it might be bankrupt before the end of the year.

Depending on how you look at it, that could be good thing, or a bad thing.

Siren, I am sorry to hear about what happened to you and I hope you get well soon.

By the way, today's my birthday, I am 24 years old.

Paul Cousins
GA, USA
Monday, May 31, 2004 09:17:58 PM
IP: 68.159.213.229

Happy Memorial Day, everybody!

SIREN - Sorry to hear about your accident.

So, is anybody interested in continuing the topic that CKayote raised last week about "what if Disney revived 'Gargoyles' but under the condition that the Goliath Chronicles be treated as canonical?" I thought that it had a lot of potential for an interesting discussion, but had the misfortune of being raised so close to the end of the week that only I and Paul Cousins gave any feedback about it. I was hoping that we might be able to do some proper jumping-in about it this week, if possible.

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Monday, May 31, 2004 06:50:51 PM
IP: 4.244.18.170

just wanted to let everyone know, i'll be gone for a few weeks to months. i was involved in a car accident on friday. my left arm was broken pretty bad. i am now a cyborg of sorts. i have a metel plate and pins in my arm. it was the radial shaft that got broken. i'm in a splint now. i'll get the cast in 2weeks, when the swelling is down. my daughter can't wait to be the first to sign it. i might post now and then, but judging from the way i need to type, it will be few and far between. just how i wanted to start off my summer


there won't be any more updates for a while to the page :(
siren
Monday, May 31, 2004 12:51:33 PM
IP: 65.33.112.117

Shazbot!

Graymonk - [mmckinnongra@hotmail.com]
Monday, May 31, 2004 09:34:25 AM
IP: 198.164.140.103

*Squeezes in*

10th!

Jimmy
Monday, May 31, 2004 03:51:59 AM
IP: 199.74.79.167

9TH!!!
matt
Monday, May 31, 2004 02:42:52 AM
IP: 207.230.48.49

8th!
Leo
Monday, May 31, 2004 02:30:38 AM
IP: 68.231.241.236

7th !
Everyone have a safe memorial day and plz say a prayer for our angels fighting over seas !

babs
Philly, Pa
Monday, May 31, 2004 12:59:46 AM
IP: 68.80.222.40

SIXTH SIXTH SIXTH!!!!!!!

In the name of... Paper Moon!!!

That is all I will say.

Battle Beast
CANADAMonday, May 31, 2004 12:48:47 AM
IP: 142.59.132.116

ooook. 5th

Nickerous - [nickerous@yahoo.com]
SC, USA
Monday, May 31, 2004 12:35:12 AM
IP: 66.220.74.10

4th. feels so good not to have to go to work today. ahhhh. :)
Nickerous - [nickerous@yahoo.com]
SC, USA
Monday, May 31, 2004 12:34:52 AM
IP: 66.220.74.10

Fourth for me!
Christine
Monday, May 31, 2004 12:34:50 AM
IP: 67.136.147.208

3rd
Demona May Stephens - [realdemona@yahoo.com]
Monday, May 31, 2004 12:27:35 AM
IP: 216.104.138.176

2nd??
DPH
AR, USA
Monday, May 31, 2004 12:08:14 AM
IP: 67.14.195.47

1st!
Alex Garg
VA, USA
Monday, May 31, 2004 12:00:40 AM
IP: 68.163.65.209