Comment Room Archive : Gargoyles : Station Eight

Algernon: Although the Marvel Adventures line uses characters the company owns. They don't pay a lisence fee for anyone else. And as I understand it, the point of the line is as a gateway comic to the main Marvel stuff. Plus, I imagine Marvel benefits from economies of scale printing all the comics they do. We don't really have any comparison criteria.

Patrick: You're right, except there aren't any surprises for SLG. The numbers aren't all over the place, just sinking slightly issue by issue. You'd think 20 years in, SLG'd have decent judgment on what to do in these situations.

Greg: Surely you could say the same about all comics since the bigger companies will have subscription offers etc. I don't think the numbers outright tell us much because there are so many unknown variables; it's more a case of what, if anything, the overall trend means. I agree the TPB will be a big boost, and I'm not sure the numbers are necessarily worrying (given how troubled #6 was, the three on-schedule issues are relatively steady).

Anyway, let's brainstorm ways to boost sales in '08.

1. Let's get a word of mouth campaign ahead of GARGOYLES #10. Why #10? I think "Invitation Only" and "The Rock" don't necessarily communicate that well as concepts; "why are they chasing a magic rock?" But I think anyone can get the idea of "The Gate" though -- a main character's going to disappear in time, and return 5 minutes later, but 40 years older. And Brooklyn's always been popular. I think it's worth trying to get some hype going for this. Get sigs, site banners, AIM icons, con flyers, whatever, focusing all our attention on #10. Get co-ordinated; some kind of slogan. TGS's slogan for TD is pretty effective: "To everyone else it was five minutes. To me, it was forty years". Maybe we can find something even better. But something simple and memorable and communicable.

2. Where do people go for an all-in-one rundown of what you NEED TO KNOW to follow the comic? The GargWiki is great for catching people up on details, but if you're looking to get into a new comic, do you really want to sift through a wiki's worth of information? I know I don't. GFW has some great stuff, but all designed for people to come on and browse than to equip total or relative newbies for jumping into Clan-Building and Bad Guys without overwhelming them.

3. Greg B's S3 intro youtube vid was pretty cool, but has anyone done a "Previously On Gargoyles" montage for Clan-Building Vol 1 and Bad Guys? Given the complexity of Clan-Building, the previously would probably need to be broken up to be halfway comprehensible. '24' has a good way around this, freeze-framing on six or seven names who represent the most important narrative strands. Which clips most quickly and dramatically establish the Illuminati, Thailog, the clones, Coldstone, Xanatos etc.? Who needs establishing and who is sufficiently self-explanatory to let slide?

Anyone else got anything?

(Not really something that's up to fans, but I notice Image have been releasing #1s free on Newsarama to drum up publicity for their books. I wonder if there's any chance SLG would run a similar promotion for GARGOYLES #1 to promote the trade. Unlikely I guess, but it'd be cool.)
Ed Reynolds
posted @ Sun, Dec 30, 2007 8:48:04 pm EST from 213.187.39.204

Rebel, if readers never started reading a series after it had so many issues out.. long running comics like Spider Man, X-Men, and the Avengers would never get new readers, but they do. Heck I recently started reading Ms. Marvel when it was already up to issue 17 and I bought every back issue.
Ozzie Arcane - [ozziearcane at yahoo dot com]
"Hello Booby! This is a trap!" - Eggplant Wizard
posted @ Sun, Dec 30, 2007 8:26:06 pm EST from 69.14.122.91

Well, I just dropped off an extra issue of Gargoyles #1 at a local Starbucks for public reading, so maybe that'll rope in a few more peeps and boost sales a bit! Ha!
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Sun, Dec 30, 2007 7:37:08 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Those numbers would have a lot more meaning if we knew how many copies of each issue were printed. If I make 10 widgits and sell 9 of them, my sales rate is way better than my neighbor who made 100 whatsits and sold 50.

180 days left until The Gathering 2008 in Chicago, Illinois!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Sun, Dec 30, 2007 7:01:24 pm EST from 76.205.74.241

I'm not worried... yet. I think the TPB will help level sales a lot.

Plus, as far as I know, those numbers don't account for re-orders, Amazon.com, copies SLG sells from their site, and copies SLG sells at conventions.

We'll see what happens.
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Sun, Dec 30, 2007 6:38:31 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if comic book readers ever start reading a series after a number of issues have been made? I guess what I'm asking is when is it going to be "too late" to get new readers? As of now I think we're safe because someone can easily buy the TPB and then just pick up with #7.
Rebel
posted @ Sun, Dec 30, 2007 6:29:00 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

So is there anything that we can do about this problem of declining sales?
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Sun, Dec 30, 2007 6:21:30 pm EST from 4.245.21.107

Ed> looking at that link and the numbers you gave Gargoyles seems to be on par with Marvel's Marvel Adventure line. I'm not really sure weather or not they'll be able to sustain the comic in the long term with those kind of numbers.

The fact is that the the general comic buying population is getting smaller and smaller as the companies fail to entice new readers. Heck, look at the number of people here who had never read a comic book before Gargoyles came out.

Personally I blame the comic book store, It's no coincidence to my mind that comics started to dip in popularity once they were taken of the newsstand's and out of the drugstores, the only places where regular kids were likely to be exposed to them. This in turn drives the comic creators to excessive stunts like one over inflated mega-crossover after another and slapping Wolverine on the cover of everything.

The sad part is that the comic book companies seem completely oblivious to all this. Rather then try to reform their business strategies, they create weird scapegoats and convince themselves that Peter Parker and Mary Jane being married is the ultimate source of all evil in the universe, but that's a whole other rant.
Algernon
The pen is mightier than the sword if the sword is very short, and the pen is very sharp.- Terry Pratchett
posted @ Sun, Dec 30, 2007 5:28:59 pm EST from 83.71.96.222

(Re: Thailog in 'The Gate') I'll be happy to focus elsewhere beside Thailog however it happens. But presumably there's going to be some point of open-ended closure to mark the end of "Clan-Building", and Thailog has been the overriding narrative thread so far. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean a big action climax. 'City of Stone' had resolution but the story didn't climax until 'Avalon'. Maybe some development of the Xanatos/Illuminati storyline -- a promotion or demotion in the ranks?

(Re: Demona) I was looking through the Ask Greg archives and it's mentioned that Demona was planning to lie low for a while. Perhaps she won't turn up for a while yet. Not necessarily a bad thing; the hype of her eventual return could be a useful shot in the arm.

(Re: Thailog) I can't see a lot of nature to challenge his nurture. He may have picked up Goliath's temper, but it seems to me a lot of the gargoyles' instinct to protect comes from cultural tradition, which in turn comes from necessity: building clans and finding a reciprocal arrangement where they offer protection in exchange for being protected in the day.

The trouble with Thailog for me though is that I really can't see where he's going, emotionally. Demona and Xanatos both exist very much in shades of grey: by the end of 'Awakening', we'd seen Xanatos's charming and cruel side, and him receiving his comeuppance in a serious way which prompted him to readjust the nature of his schemes. Demona went from being mourned at the end of part 1 to being abandoned at the end of part 5.

But Thailog is pretty much as we left him at the end of 'Double Jeopardy' -- wiser, richer, better connected, more powerful -- but essentially with the same ambition and attitude. It wouldn't be credible for him to reform; whether he finds some more complex emotions would be interesting but do we really think he's capable of processing them? I suspect he has more in common with Shakespeare's dyed-in-the-wool villains such as Iago and Edmund. Coleridge said of Iago that he was "a motiveless malignity", and Thailog seems much that way. It's not that he's not attributed motives, but none of these seem to drive him.

Even practically, Thailog's ultimate goal would seem to be something like the dystopia of 'Future Tense', and that might be interesting if he gets far enough, but I can't see the comic going too far down the dystopian sci-fi route. Brentwood does present a more interesting character to me though, and that relationship I really look forward to seeing develop. If Brentwood does achieve Future Tense Lex levels of villainy, it will be a more impressive feat given where he started out.

Incidentally, has anyone else been keeping track on the comic's sales performance? There are lists of this stuff here: http://www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=695

But here are the stats for all the comics through to November -- rank, issue, and estimated sales.

165. Gargoyles #1 (7,500)
205. Gargoyles #2 (6,900)
189. Gargoyles #3 (6,504)
227. Gargoyles #4 (5.775)
236. Gargoyles #5 (5,737)
236. Gargoyles #6 (5,433)
244. Gargoyles: Bad Guys #1 (4,973)

I'm not really sure how to interpret these numbers. They're comparable with other colour comics with animation lisences (e.g. Sonic X), but I guess a lot depends on Disney's deal with SLG.

The bad news is the numbers have slipped every issue so far. On the other hand, the price hike may have contributed to the drop after #6. And 'Bad Guys' was only eight places behind the lead title (albeit for the launch issue when it would have most press and, potentially, before people cottoned on that it was b&w).

I remember reading an article by Tom Brevoort (a Marvel editor) which mentioned that sales figures generally slide marginally each issue until something specific happens to spike them (the start of a new arc, a stunt etc.), but that there were books with devoted fanbases which were an exception. It would be great to see this for 'Gargoyles -- if not stellar numbers then stable.

I guess where 'Bad Guys' levels off will be most interesting in this regard; if the readership proves resilient irrespective of price and quantity of issues on the stands, perhaps it will incentivise SLG to keep building the family of titles. (One advantage 'Pendragon' and 'Timedancer' may have over 'Bad Guys' is that by the time -- hopefully! -- those books are green-lit, the main characters and storylines will have been trailed in the main comic.)
Ed Reynolds
posted @ Sun, Dec 30, 2007 4:35:58 pm EST from 213.187.39.204

Greg > "I was expecting my comment on children being little sociopaths in my big Thailog post to cause a little controversy."

Well, it's partly true. I dunno if I'd call them "sociopaths", but in my experience young children are, at the very least, amoral.
Rebel
posted @ Sun, Dec 30, 2007 3:58:35 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

Purplegoldfish> Well, there's something you could ask Greg about on either AG or at the next Gathering.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Sun, Dec 30, 2007 2:08:19 pm EST from 75.60.245.197

Greg B: yeah but that couldn't have taken that long since Angela said "A few seconds ago you were talking about getting home and then fell off the skiff" or something like that.

hehe I agree with you about kids being sociopaths ;)-not to the extent of Thailog though
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Sun, Dec 30, 2007 1:45:47 pm EST from 69.183.162.111

Purplegoldfish> On one occassion, at least long enough for Goliath to pass out, fall off the skiff, say confusing gibberish about Puck and deceptions and throw the Phoenix Gate into a time warp.

I was expecting my comment on children being little sociopaths in my big Thailog post to cause a little controversy. Hmmm.
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Sun, Dec 30, 2007 1:37:50 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Since it's slow in here... I had this random thought while taking a shower (where I always seem to have these random thoughts)

How long were the Avalon travellers actually in the skiff between destinations? How long did it take them to get from Avalon once the spell was cast to each new place and vice versa. Did it take hours? minutes? Did the time always vary depending on the destination, or was it always the same amount of time? I don't know if this was ever asked before and I'm a bit curious.
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Sun, Dec 30, 2007 1:32:52 pm EST from 69.183.162.111

Sorry for the double post. Just wanted to say that I just ordered Season 1 and Season 2 vol. 1 from Amazon.
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sun, Dec 30, 2007 9:45:23 am EST from 24.227.200.138

Algernon >> Keep in mind, Greg doesn't give things away anymore. Even if those two are around during 2008 and alive and well, he probably wouldn't say anything now that we have comics.
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sun, Dec 30, 2007 9:13:33 am EST from 24.227.200.138

Octavio> I think that Goliath's death was mentioned in the bumper Gragoyles 2198 proposal Greg gave out as a contest prize. Appaerently Goliath sacrafices his life in some way that acts as a catylist for the Gargoyle Minority Protection Act.

As for who will die when, we know that Angela and Broadway are going to be around until at least 2048 in order for Lancelot to be consived. The ones I'm really worried about are Brooklyn and Katana, according to the math I've done they should be ready to lay another egg in 2008, yet Greg has never made any mention of them having a third child.
Algernon
The pen is mightier than the sword if the sword is very short, and the pen is very sharp.- Terry Pratchett
posted @ Sun, Dec 30, 2007 8:48:52 am EST from 83.71.96.222

I always had this in my mind on who's gonna die first and who's gonna die last. I think It be Hudson first then Goliath, Elisa, Brooklyn, Broadway, Katana, Lex, Angela and then Bronx but I only think it's gonna be Hudson, Lex, Angela, Bronx dieing of old age/natual causes.
Vicky82 - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]
posted @ Sun, Dec 30, 2007 1:51:38 am EST from 195.93.21.4

At what Gathering did Greg Weisman speak of Goliath's sacrifice?
Octavio Valentine
posted @ Sun, Dec 30, 2007 12:39:08 am EST from 70.15.84.29

Thanks Ntripy.

And I too can see Brentwood being the death of Thailog or at least taking advantage of it. It parallels Lexington and Xanatos in "Future Tense" nicely. Brentwood's Shock Troops. Has a nice ring to it. And given what Greg W said about Brentwood's future, it is very possible.

"No more Thailog?" "What now for us?"
Indeed.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Sat, Dec 29, 2007 11:54:07 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

"Greg responds...

10. I had some plans for Angela and Broadway to go to Avalon, at least for a visit."

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=325
Ntripy
posted @ Sat, Dec 29, 2007 11:17:31 pm EST from 72.232.196.138

TGC and S3: I suspect we'll hear from the Avalon clan again when Mab rears her head again...

also Dying of Light does paralell Robbins knowing Hudson's a gargoyle.
starlioness
posted @ Sat, Dec 29, 2007 10:34:22 pm EST from 24.18.251.55

Sorry for the double post, just wanted to comment on the whole lifespan thing. For some reason, I don't see Lex living all that long. Not saying I think he's gonna die real early, just doubting he'll make it to ripe old age (I also think he could potentially become a lower-level illuminati member). I do see both Broadway and Angela living long lives (obviously they live pretty long at least, since they have three kids together). Anyway I do think they'll both live very long lives.

Do we have any idea at this point about the circumstances of Brooklyn's death? I'm wondering if he'll live long enough to be the clan's leader, and if so, approximately how long he'll fill that role. I also wonder who'll be leader after him. I dunno if Greg's already specified, but I'm kinda hoping it'll be Angela, though it could easily be a character we haven't met yet.
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Dec 29, 2007 10:28:41 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

MATT> <<Broadway and Angela will spend some time on Avalon though so that may lengthen their lives a bit on the timeline. >>

Where did Greg say this?

As for old age, I guess it depends on how one defines old age. But, let's just say I expect 2056 to be a big year for our characters. That's the year the Praying Gargoyle finally reforms, and you just know that Demona is waiting for that. She'll use it again, as she tried to do in 1920 and 1996.
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Sat, Dec 29, 2007 10:24:45 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

I suspect Thailog will come to his end at Brentwood's hands. I wouldn't even be surprised if Brentwood becomes an Illuminati member and later ends up being a more dangerous villain than Thailog.
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Dec 29, 2007 10:12:36 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

Greg B> We don't know Goliath won't make it to old age, we merely know he won't die of it. Just because he sacrifices his life doesn't mean he isn't old when he does it.

I tend to agree with you though when you say Thailog will probably die before his time, so to speak, and Xanatos will live a long life, but never achieve his coveted immortality. Of the Manhattan Clan (those of 1996 anyway) I tend to think that Bronx or Broadway will be the last to die, or maybe Angela or Lex. Broadway and Angela will spend some time on Avalon though so that may lengthen their lives a bit on the timeline. Bronx is just the youngest clan member currently, and Lex, I dunno, we'll see about him.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Sat, Dec 29, 2007 10:11:06 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

LOL, somehow, I doubt Thailog is going to make it to old age. We know Goliath won't.

Everyone else, who knows. Xanatos, for some reason, I see making it to old age.
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Sat, Dec 29, 2007 9:56:46 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Matt > "Don't worry about him. Thailog died during the Clone Wars."

LOL. That would be funny. My first thought was that Thailog would have long ago died of old age, but then again if the Illuminati has special drugs that lengthen lifespans, that's not necessarily the case. It WOULD be funny to hear that line again.
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Dec 29, 2007 9:27:21 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

Todd> I've thought about that too. It'd be interesting seeing one or several of the gargoyles that later join Demona's Clan encounter Brooklyn, Mary and Finella as they too are on the run from Constantine.

Cool thought: Wouldn't it be funny if when Brooklyn is in the future interacting with the 2198 bunch he makes some kind of off-hand remark or joke mentioning Thailog and Samson or somebody says, "Don't worry about him. Thailog died during the Clone Wars."
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Sat, Dec 29, 2007 9:11:46 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Todd > I'd like it if we did. But then again I'm always up for seeing new gargoyles. Once the arc with the London clan is over, my most immediate desire (as far as seeing new gargoyle character designs) would probably be to see another with Lex's wing set-up, or some other neat variation.
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Dec 29, 2007 8:44:31 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

If you keep cloning clones, chances are good that any minute errors or mutations in the DNA are going to start to compound upon themselves. This why most forms of life more complex than a single cell don't reproduce by copying themselves.

"I made a copy of a copy, but it didn't turn out as bright." - Michael Keaton, "Multiplicity"
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"No flag, no country. Those are the rules that I just made up." - Eddie Izzard
posted @ Sat, Dec 29, 2007 7:39:15 pm EST from 76.227.133.83

I wonder if, in the Timedancer story coming up (in issues #10 to #12), we'll see some of Constantine's persecution of Scottish gargoyles (Greg mentioned in the "Today in the Gargoyles Universe" section that Constantine embarked on an anti-gargoyle campaign as a means of venting his frustrations about Princess Katharine's escape).

It does seem, from what we can make out, that a lot of the gargoyle slaughters in Scotland (we don't know about the other countries) were due as much to humans quarreling with each other and taking it out on gargoyles that weren't able to get out of the way in time, as to fear of the unknown and monstrous-seeming.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Sat, Dec 29, 2007 7:28:59 pm EST from 4.244.214.17

Thanks
Sam - [wegotagopher at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Dec 29, 2007 7:08:53 pm EST from 209.173.121.253

Sam >> I'm assuming she did.

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=540
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Dec 29, 2007 7:01:43 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

Indeed, he is rather child-like. It will be interesting to see him...er..."grow". I looked up sociopathy on wikipedia. It redirected to antisocial personality disorder, and he certainly does seem to have nearly all the symptoms. I was not aware there was a disorder that made people evil (poor choice of words, but you know what I mean). It's both an environmental and a genetic thing, and we know he certainly didn't get it from Goliath, so if he has it, it would have to be a result of all that programming and his rather sad start in life.

I still feel pretty bad for the guy though.
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Dec 29, 2007 6:15:29 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

Does anybody know if Elisa remembered what happened in Sentinal after she got her memory back?
Sam - [wegotagopher at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Dec 29, 2007 6:00:53 pm EST from 209.173.121.253

Personally, I think Thailog inherited Xanatos' cunning, Goliath's determination and Sevarius' sense of humor.
Algernon
The pen is mightier than the sword if the sword is very short, and the pen is very sharp.- Terry Pratchett
posted @ Sat, Dec 29, 2007 5:32:36 pm EST from 83.71.96.222

"You see? You're better off without her."

Yeah, he definitely seemed to enjoy Angela and Demona's moment. And then he proceeded to almost shoot his "half-sister."

And if you think about it from the child perspective, how much positive reinforcement has he really gotten? He was raised on Xanatos's unique slant on life, and Goliath's first reaction to him was to call him an abomination and almost pound his face in.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I'll prove I'm the goodguy, even if I have to smash this entire city and beat you to a mushy pulp!" -Coop ("Megas XLR")
posted @ Sat, Dec 29, 2007 5:27:44 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

Rebel> No one is saying you are trying to push a viewpoint. You brought it up, and we're discussing it.

I do think "inner-gargoyle" and "inner-Xanatos" are terms I wouldn't use. Thailog is a unique individual unto himself. He learned from Xanatos, but at the same time, his style is very different. Laughing maniacally for one, that certainly didn't come from Xanatos or Goliath.

Like Xanatos, Thailog likes the bottom line. Practical goals, although I do think he tends to hold more of a grudge. He is also willing to make sure he can cause as much pain as he goes also. He mixes business with pleasure, it seems. Xanatos does terrible things, but is quite cold about it, he shows neither remorse nor glee. Thailog, on the other hand, is much more of a sadist. He takes joy over causing misery and tormenting his enemies.

Take "The Reckoning" for example. Look at how he handled Demona and Angela. Yes, he was testing Demona, from his point of view, she had weeks to turn he girl and failed, but he had to twist the knife also. Look at him after Angela tells Demona that she hates her. He's smiling. He's smirking. He enjoyed that, and even if Demona didn't turn on him, he just made what would have been Angela's last moments even more painful. And then there's how he presented Delilah to Demona. That's twisting the knife if I ever saw it.

Not to mention everything he did in "Masque" and "Bash". The guy is clearly a sadistic sociopath, and he revels in it.

Ironically, one of my favorite fictional characters, Tony Soprano, is often referred to as a sociopath, and while he has those tendencies and vices, I just don't see it. I've met real life sociopaths, and they have a lot more in common with Thailog than with Tony. I don't think we'll ever see Thailog feeding ducks and holding a puppy.

Thing is, I don't think any of these things came from Xanatos or Goliath. Well, maybe Xanatos but I doubt it was his intent to create this, well, this thing. Some people like to credit Sevarius with Thailog's complete lack of morals and ethics, but really, I see him as Igor to Xanatos's Dr. Frankenstein on this one. He was the doctor who delivered the baby, Xanatos and Goliath were the parents.

Now, I'm not saying he's pure evil, no one in the "Gargoyles Universe" is. He's as capable of growth as anyone, hell the rest of the clones are showing it. Thailog is still young, and the idea of empathizing with others is not something he's learned yet. Kind of like a child. All these people who idealize childhood clearly forget what being a child was like. Children are little sociopaths who need society to teach them how to care about others around them (more like Eric Cartman than Wesley Crusher). Thailog is still only a year out of the maturation tube, in a way, he still is a child.
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Sat, Dec 29, 2007 5:19:31 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Allow me to clarify...I don't think he would ever, ever be "saved". Just that he has (or will have) a lot of inner turmoil with his inner-Xanatos and his inner-gargoyle being at odds with each other. Anyway, I'm not trying to "push" this opinion on anyone else, just saying that this is what I think.

This reminds me. Greg has said that Brooklyn (upon returning from Timedancer) will look very much like his Future Tense self (except for one major difference), and that Brentwood will probably sorta follow Future Tense Lexington's path. Did Greg ever mention anything about Broadway (or Hollywood) in regards to Future Tense? Is one of them going to be de-eyed eventually?
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Dec 29, 2007 4:27:53 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

I think Thailog is the creature to Xanatos and Sevarius's Victor Frankenstein. And for the moment, he seems very set in his ways. Hey, not even Jesus and Hasselhoff could save them all.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Well, do you ever get the feeling that the story's too damn real and in the present tense, or that everybody's on the stage and it seems like you're the only person sitting in the audience?" -Ian Anderson
posted @ Sat, Dec 29, 2007 3:40:09 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

Rebel> And this is where the nature versus nurture argument comes into play. People have been debating this one for a long time, and for gargoyles, I think it's a little bit of both.

Thailog protects his... self interests. But I don't see any inner turmoil or conflict, he does what he does and damn, he seems to enjoy it. Look at him in "Masque" and "Bash", he is having fun.

Now, Greg can't help but write three-dimensional villains, and Thailog is no different. But, I don't see any of his joyful malevolence going away any time soon. Can't save them all.
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Sat, Dec 29, 2007 2:14:39 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Greg > Yeah, I know. I also doubt that they will ever be romantic. Once again, I'm just rambling. I don't think Thailog is at all salvagable, but I do think that his gargoyle nature and the programming he received from Xanatos are likely at odds with each other even now, and that maybe this will become important sometime much later on down the road.
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Dec 29, 2007 2:05:34 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

Greg,

Demona giving the Grimorum to Xanatos was the only explanation that I could have come up with at the time.

Giving the Grimorum to Xanatos would allow him to explain to Goliath how he broke the spell and how he knew to bring the castle to Manhattan. After all, Demona could not very well meet Goliath that same evening.

Once Demona reunited with her clan (she was still considered part of the clan at the time), she would have access to the Grimorum. It is not as if Xanatos could cast spells.

But things did not go as she and Xanatos planned...
Michael Ejercito - [mejercit at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Sat, Dec 29, 2007 1:59:08 pm EST from 75.142.107.43

Rebel> Shari resembles Elisa (not that much IMO) in coloring because she is an Arab. They tend to have darker skin and black hair. And if she is indeed Scheherazade, that would be why Greg chose to make her an Arab.

As for Thailog, I don't know, he seems to have a good time. I doubt he understands the concept of love and family yet.

If he and Shari become anything closer than allies/employer/employee/superior/inferior or whatever, I will be surprised. But, I just don't see love growing there. The Illuminati probably assigned her to Thailog for a reason.
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Sat, Dec 29, 2007 1:58:39 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

I dunno, I think deep down Thailog is a deeply troubled individual and very unhappy. Yes, he has all of Xanatos's values, but he is also a gargoyle and has a gargoyle's primal needs, which probably consist of being a part of a clan/family and having something to protect. I think his scheming, solitary, self-serving "inner-Xanatos" is probably at war with his "inner-gargoyle/Goliath". He's also probably deeply jealous of Goliath (notice how he utilizes every opportunity to put him down...and also the fact that he still got Elisa's DNA, which doesn't really serve any practical purpose...seems like he's trying to emulate Goliath and have what Goliath has though he'd never admit it, but also trying to piss Goliath, and perhaps also Demona, off). All in all, Goliath really has an okay life for a gargoyle. He leads a small but loyal clan, has a loving and attractive human girlfriend, and has something to protect. Thailog has none of that. This might also be why that little Goliath/Elisa moment between Thailog and Shari was thrown into issue 7...I doubt that it's a coincidence that Shari vaguely resembles Elisa, at least in coloring. Also, though he didn't really let on, I bet he was secretly very happy that Brentwood decided to stick with him.

I could be completely off in my analysis of his character. Only time will tell I guess.
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Dec 29, 2007 1:45:52 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

MATT> <<I do think that whatever he is cooking up, it'll be an army. I doubt there will even exist individuals, they probably won't even have individual names.>>

Considering that, aside from Delilah, he didn't name any of the clones, I am sure. Thailog doesn't see them as individuals or as "people". He sees them as tools, as property. And, if our guesses are right, as weapons.

Thailog is not Jayne Cobb, he would never name his gun Vera.
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Sat, Dec 29, 2007 12:49:27 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

I don't think he is going to make Thailog Shock Troops ala "Future Tense", but I do think he is going to make "Thailog's Shock Troops". Recombinations, cybernetic upgrades... whatever he is up to, I don't think it'll be more simple clones. He tried those already so it would be repetitive story-wise, and besides, even with programming as simple as "Obey Thailog" he couldn't keep control of them. Perhaps he'll replace their brains with cybernetic computer brains sorta like what the Future Tense Shock Troops had, that way they'll be as easy to control as a robot or computer program... (except both robots and computer programs have gotten out of control in this series before, so who knows?)

I do think that whatever he is cooking up, it'll be an army. I doubt there will even exist individuals, they probably won't even have individual names.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Sat, Dec 29, 2007 12:43:19 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Rebel> Yeah, I'm expecting something along the lines of the Thailog Shock Troops seen in "Future Tense". "Clone Wars" so to speak, though I doubt Greg will use that name.

As for whether or not Thailog will be the Big Bad. Greg has said in the past that was always his plan for the third season, but don't worry, that doesn't mean we won't be seeing other villains, hell look at Xanatos in the current story, and I'm sure Demona will be back and will play a major role.
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Sat, Dec 29, 2007 12:33:39 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

I was a biology major for a while and we were always taught that it was best to clone from the original, not from another clone. Even if it is *possible* to clone from a clone, doesn't mean that the creature you produce will be as effective as the first clone. And I doubt Thailog is the kind of guy who would want to take any chances. It was something about DNA strands shortening or falling apart, or whatever.

As for me, I doubt Thailog is simply going to make more clones. I'm betting they're going to be "upgraded" in some way. Whether the upgrades are cybernetic, or genetic, or whatever, I doubt they're just going to be more of the same. He might even mix DNA around and make totally new gargoyles.

Also, he'll probably want to get samples from Katana and Nashville later on.

By the way, in reference to the comments about Thailog being a "big bad"...is Thailog merely going to be *A* Big Bad, or *THE* Big Bad...I'm cool with it if he's just going to be *A* Big Bad...but *THE* Big Bad? Wow, I sure hope not. I want more Demona!
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Dec 29, 2007 12:26:40 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

Cloning a clone has been done before in real life. The Japanese, I think, cloned a bull and then cloned one of the clones years later.

Perhaps the problem with cloning a clone is more problematic with gargoyles for some reason. Or maybe... yeah, maybe it was the artificial aging process that makes the clones unusable to be donors to produce future clones. Perhaps Sevarius told Thailog that if he wanted to make more clones he'd have to get the DNA from naturally aged donors and that the artificial aging of the clones not only screwed with their coloring (and perhaps other minor physical features) but also made them unusable as donors.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Sat, Dec 29, 2007 12:10:10 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Greg Weisman says:

" 1. I see no reason why not, however Dolly the sheep has demonstrated that cloning is not a tremendously effective way to reproduce. Even assuming that Sevarius' methods are more effective, a clone of a clone starts to sound a bit like a xerox of a xerox. Eventually, the copies are too weak to be useful.

2. Well, the change in coloring wasn't a result of the cloning but of the rapid forced aging. But assuming the clone of the clone was also rapid forced aged, than I assume the coloring would alter. A rapid aged clone of Thailog, might not look exactly like Goliath, but he might be close. "
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Sat, Dec 29, 2007 11:33:32 am EST from 67.87.175.245

Octavio: I think Demona had been planning genocide for a while, and probably figured that the Fulfillment Spell would factor into it somehow.

As far as when we see her next in the comic, I'm looking forward to hopefully finally seeing a more realistic take on the relationship between her and Angela, realistic as in true to Demona's character. No offense to some people, I mean we're all free to believe whatever we wish. But as for me, I think 1,000 years is a long time, and in all that time, Demona's had nothing but her hate (which makes it easier for her to run from the fact that she's to blame for her own misery). That's probably not going to dry up overnight.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Well, do you ever get the feeling that the story's too damn real and in the present tense, or that everybody's on the stage and it seems like you're the only person sitting in the audience?" -Ian Anderson
posted @ Sat, Dec 29, 2007 10:24:45 am EST from 71.62.198.251

Maybe Sevarius did want/require samples from the original source, but since Thailog was gonna need samples from several new people (Angela and Bronx) he had to go to them anyway. And since they'd be unwilling to contribute to Thailog, he'd have to take it from them. And if he is taking it from them, why not take it from the rest of the Clan as well. And why donate a large amount of genetic material when you can have a lot of fun stabbing Goliath instead?
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Sat, Dec 29, 2007 10:05:38 am EST from 24.207.163.239

Matt> But why would he need to worry about the Mutates? He already retrieved the clones from the Labrynth, so instead of going to attack the clan at the Eyrie, he could have just taken the clones back home first and taken as much blood as he wanted.

He should at least not have needed Goliath's DNA because I'm sure he'd be happy to donate for himself.

Maybe Sevarius informed him that it is better to have samples from the original source.
Ntripy
posted @ Sat, Dec 29, 2007 9:47:46 am EST from 72.232.196.138

Ntripy> I'd think that it had to do with the amount of genetic material that he needed/wanted. If he had tried to extract that much from the Clones, it'd been suspicious to the Mutates at least. more than a mosquito's worth indeed.
Plus as you say, he needed some from Angela and Bronx and probably some unmixed Elisa DNA too.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Sat, Dec 29, 2007 9:24:21 am EST from 24.207.163.239

I was just wondering, why does Thailog need dna samples from the clan when he could get them from the clones with no resistance? Is there some rule that says a clone of a clone is inferior?

He still would have had to get Elisa, Angela and Bronx's sample so maybe he just thought it would be more fun to attack everyone.

I wonder if he plans on getting another sample from Demona?
Ntripy
posted @ Sat, Dec 29, 2007 9:10:19 am EST from 72.232.196.138

Sounds like there's an awful lot of ground to be covered... 12 pages at a time. One of the hazards of having a cast of hundreds, I guess.

181 days left until The Gathering 2008 in Chicago, Illinois!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"No flag, no country. Those are the rules that I just made up." - Eddie Izzard
posted @ Sat, Dec 29, 2007 7:56:03 am EST from 99.161.91.215

Hi everybody. Sorry I havent been around lately. Just here to tell you Im still alive. *sees all the posts he's missed* Wow, I have a lot to read to catch up.
Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1 at sbcglobal dot net]
H2O Goliath will woop your ass
posted @ Sat, Dec 29, 2007 5:10:11 am EST from 69.231.210.27

Octavio> I don't see another doomsday plan for Demona just yet, down the road sure, but not her next appearance. I think Angela is likely to get Demona's attention. Thailog too for that matter.
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Sat, Dec 29, 2007 12:26:24 am EST from 67.87.175.245

I'm sure once Thailog fails at obtaining "The Rock", he'll lay low for a while his clones or whatever he's cooking grows. I would like to see Shari interact with other Illuminati around her rank.

And while Thailog schemes, Demona or another villain can take the spotlight. I'd have to check the Wiki and see how many total years she put into her Hunter's Moon plan, but whatever she's cooking up will probably take some time and I look forward to seeing her when she's ready to unleash hell.
Octavio Valentine
posted @ Sat, Dec 29, 2007 12:13:45 am EST from 70.15.84.29

All I'm saying is that there will be surprises. I would think that there will be more going on than simply the Timedancer story as you've discribed it. Maybe even something small like Demona's cameo in "Invitation Only", but something...
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Sat, Dec 29, 2007 12:03:33 am EST from 24.207.163.239

Matt> To be fair, we knew much, much, much less about the Double Date story than we did about the first Timedancer story.

Obviously there is plenty to do here. Greg needs to re-establish the Phoenix Gate, re-introduce Mary, Finella and Constantine. Get into Maol Chalvim II, and Kenneth III (whom Greg has always said would be in this story), as well as tenth century Scotland. Plus introduce Katana, Nashville and Fu-Dog. This is a lot of material here, and Thailog might be a bit much. He shouldn't be in every story anyway, much as I like Thailog, I think a bit of a break from him would be good.

Hell, all this would be a good way to re-introduce Katharine and Tom in a way.
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:00:58 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Greg B> How can you possibly say that? If this was a tv episode, I'd agree with you, but this is the comics and the comics are allowing a lot more characters in to have parts. There is a lot going on outside of the main story. A lot. Given how #1-7 have been, I'd say it is VERY likely we'll see Thailog in 10-12. The point is, we don't know. Just because Greg has said that the back-door Timedancer pilot episode would feature Mary and Finella and the rest doesn't mean we won't see Thailog at some point. That is like saying "Greg says the Double Date story will feature Goliath, Elisa, Delilah and either Morgan or Jason so it is not going to feature the Quarrymen at all or the Gargoyles Taskforce or the Illuminati" and of course, all of them showed up in 3-5.

That contributes to the whole reason I see that Gargoyles may be stronger in comic form. With such a huge cast, comics allow Greg to give many, many of them parts in a story that they wouldn't get if shown on tv whether because of time issues or simply because of the expense of hiring more voice actors.

So, to sum it up, 10-12 will feature Brook and Timedancer... and who knows what else? Renard's death? The Coldtrio? Fox's Shoes? Anything is possible.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:41:00 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

I forgot Renard's death, yeah, it'll happen soon.

Ed> The way Greg has describe the Timedancer story for years always included seeing his first dance. So, expect Mary, Finella and Constantine. I don't think Thailog is going to be in 10, 11, and 12.
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 9:13:25 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

I believe "Broadway Goes Hollywood" was originally suppose to introduce the Ultra-Pack.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 9:11:34 pm EST from 71.115.192.199

Greg B: I guess violence DOES solve problems. ( ;

Was Greg also planning something concerning Renard's death, or was that farther down the road?
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Well, do you ever get the feeling that the story's too damn real and in the present tense, or that everybody's on the stage and it seems like you're the only person sitting in the audience?" -Ian Anderson
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 9:08:28 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

We'll see. I certainly agree Thailog is going to be a big long-term player, I just can't see he's going to continue to be this prominent -- basically a regular -- indefinitely. It's the finale to "Clan-Building" and who more fitting than Thailog as an antagonist for that?

As for the Timedancer stuff... what we know covers about 5 minutes. Maybe we'll see Brook's first adventure now, maybe not. Unlike most press releases which mention a lot of stuff, there's still very little to go on with this story. But if not... all I'll say is, #3-5 was the double date story and look at all the other stuff that happened!

24 pages every 2 months isn't a lot of space, and 'Gargoyles' has a lot of villains. In the original, villains would often have a run of episodes and then take a back seat for a while. I wouldn't be surprised if someone else gets to be the villain-in-residence for a while -- and you'd think that person would be Demona.

Having said that, we still haven't seen a complete comic arc so we don't have any yardstick for what their ultimate shape will be.
Ed Reynolds
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 8:53:03 pm EST from 213.187.39.204

Ed> <<My hope is that we get a strong resolution on Thailog for #12>>

We won't. It'll end with Brooklyn/Katana/Nashville/Fu-Dog/Egg.

I think Thailog is here as Big Bad for the long haul, or at least until what would have been the open-ended third season finale. They're laying pipe for a lot with him, and the Illuminati is involved, since Shari is in with him.
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 8:42:53 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Theoretically, we'd end ye olde S3 with #39-40, but don't forget that the spin-offs (certainly 'Bad Guys') take events which would likely have been cannibalised back into Season 3. And I'm sure without the restriction of a 13-episode order, Greg will let things flow as he would have wanted. It certainly would appear from Terry's cameo that the New Olympians may not be returning as soon as they might have originally. Assuming we're going to keep going with these 12 issue arcs (and I guess that makes best financial sense for trade collections), I wouldn't be surprised if the third such arc would mirror S3's close. But perhaps Greg's thinking has changed significantly in the last 11 years.

My hope is that we get a strong resolution on Thailog for #12 and then get a 12-issue arc focused around a different antagonist for a while -- Demona, Castaway and/or Mab would be my preferences. I was disappointed by the idea that Thailog might be stepping up as some kind of 'big bad' but I think having an arc villain suits the structure of a comic very well.

It might help if we can work backwards to see which TGC stories best match Greg's description...

"Runaway", "Ransom" and "Seeing Isn't Believing" were stated to have been based on the Timedancer, multi-trickster and New Olympian concepts as I recall.

"And Justice For All" is clearly based off an episode yet to air; presumably this is what Judge Roebling's presence is building towards.

#3-5 -- "Genesis Undone" fits best.

#7-9 -- Really hard to say. But given the Xanatos against the Illuminati theme and the global scale, I'd guess "To Serve Mankind". Which, if true, really is a case of making a sow's ear back out of a silk purse.

"... For It May Come True" would seem to be the only obvious interpretation of a Mab concept if indeed she was planned for Season 3.

'Bad Guys' seems to have been swept under the carpet entirely by TGC, but the only TGC episode which seems so banal that I can't really imagine a precedent is "A Bronx Tail". I mean, I'm sure Greg would have plans for Bronx, but...

That leaves big question marks over "Broadway Goes To Hollywood" (dealing with the role in the media?), "Generations" (Demona?), "The Dying of the Light" (a Dark Ages back-door pilot?) and "Angels in the Night" (whatever the open-ended closure of the finale may have brought). If so, it's interesting that these episodes prominently feature the human/gargoyle relationship. Perhaps a future 12-issue arc will be centred around the tolerance/forgiveness/vengeance/hatred set of themes with Demona and the Quarrymen more prominent.

Of the Trickster, Mab and Trial episodes the only linking theme I can imagine is power and responsibility and irresponsibility so I wouldn't be surprised to see an arc around that. Maybe around the theme of Protecting and Serving. Weren't we also supposed to see Renard's death in S3? He'd seem an obvious thematic bedfellow. Perhaps we can expect this one to be heavy on Fox.

No doubt I'll be wildly off beam on all these guesses, but I can't wait to see it all.
Ed Reynolds
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 8:34:21 pm EST from 213.187.39.204

I liked the Avalon World Tour, but I'd prefer the comic to move forward with "What happened after the gargoyles were exposed to the world and had to take refuge with Xanatos?" I'd like to see the stories that we should have gotten in the third season instead of the Goliath Chronicles.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 7:19:51 pm EST from 4.244.208.251

Since any World Tour stories would be set in the past, Greg could try for a miniseries detailing further World Tour stories, plus the following:

- Arthur's adventure between Avalon Part 3 to Pendragon.
- The story where Xanatos took advantage of Goliath's absense.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 5:41:03 pm EST from 71.115.192.199

Rebel> I agree. I was just wondering what you guys thought about the future of the comic. If the 2008 comics will contain a lot of flash blacks, filling in the past and/or how much of it will be brand new stuff.

I'm really looking forward to the comic showcasing Goliath in his glory after his Quarrymen and Thailog encounters. I definitely enjoyed the touching scenes of him and Elisa in seasons past, while he still continued to kick ass.
Octavio Valentine
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 5:34:38 pm EST from 70.15.84.29

Patrick> As Greg explained, she was damn lucky a turf war between Dracon and Brod was going on and Chavez could use someone Brod was unfamiliar with on the force to send undercover. Brod had been in NYC for a few months.

So, yup, violence, mayhem and murder saved Elisa's career. ;)

I still think Internal Affairs investigating her down the line would make an interesting story.
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 5:34:18 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Spend a day on Avalon and nearly out 3 1/2 weeks pass in the real world. It wouldn't be hard at all to misplace a few months worth of time.

It's been said before, but Elisa's damn lucky she still had a job to come back to.
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"Never go in against a Sicilian when DEATH is on the line!" - Vizzini, "The Princess Bride"
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 5:31:08 pm EST from 99.161.91.215

Octavio > If there are any missing adventures from the World Tour, I'm betting they will likely be revealed whenever it is convenient or prudent to do so. For example, there might be a brief flashback to an extra adventure on the world tour, which plants seeds and helps set up a new story arc. So, there is no telling when (or if) any extra adventures might be revealed (if there are any...like others have said, they may have just been resting during all those gaps).
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 5:20:53 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

Phil> I agree. I'm done with the World Tour. I know we're likely to see the Shambala adventure at some point, but I'd rather we move forward, not go back and cover old ground.
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 5:09:10 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

I personally would rather not spend 2008 filling in World Tour gaps. During the run of the TV series, I didn't dislike the World Tour, but I was very ready for it to be over. I'd be disappointed if the next story arc after "Clan-Building" is "World Tour 2." I'd rather see the continuing adventures of the whole Manhattan Clan.
Phil - [p1anderson at go dot com]
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 5:04:54 pm EST from 134.215.196.82

Could there be a missing World Tour story during that period? Sure.

But Greg has never mentioned one to us as far as I know. Most likely the were chilling out on Avalon for a few days for some reason. Lets wait and see. Greg could surprise us.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 5:04:25 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Greg has all the time in the world to fill it. I posed the question to the members of the CR and I ridled with "resting" responses. My argument is that period wasn't a resting period and the question I posed was if you think that gap or the other gaps will be revealed in the comics in 2008 (1997)? That's all. Sheesh.
Octavio Valentine
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 4:57:04 pm EST from 159.240.11.254

Octavio> I don't think taking nearly 4 days for a rest period is a cop-out, but there could be one adventure in there.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 4:53:05 pm EST from 199.38.51.134

Octavio> Greg has not yet revealed that 3 month period yet. Give him a couple months before you start declaring it a cop-out. Geeez.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 4:46:28 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

So 1/30/2006 - 4/30/2006 is when they rested on Avalon for 91 Avalonian hours? I'm a bit skeptical, but if true then that's a large cop out.
Octavio Valentine
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 4:35:51 pm EST from 159.240.11.254

Octavio-I think the gaps in the world tour is time that the travellers spent on Avalon between stops.
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 4:30:50 pm EST from 69.183.162.111

Octavius> Check out the Timeline at the GargWiki and you'll see why those time gaps seem to exist. In reality it is because Goliath and Co were spending time on Avalon, where time was moving a lot slower.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 4:30:30 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Octavio: You do realize that most of that was the travelers resting or recovering on Avalon before setting out again, right? Time passes more slowly there.
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 4:30:10 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Matt: "With "Reunion" I'm pretty sure every World Tour stop has been shown."

I'm sorry, I have to I disagree.

There remain to be some huge gaps in The World Tour:

1/1/2006 Begin World Tour / Shadows of the Past
1/2/2006 Shadows of the Past
1/3/2006 Heritage
1/4/2006 - 1/15/2006 ?
1/16/2006 Monsters
1/17/2006 Monsters
1/19/2006 Golem
1/21/2006 Sanctuary
1/22/2006 Sanctuary
1/23/2006 MIA
1/24/2006 MIA
1/25/2006 Grief
1/26/2006 Grief
1/27/2006 The Hound of Ulster
1/28/2006 The Hound of Ulster
1/29/2006 The Hound of Ulster
1/30/2006 - 4/30/2006 ?
5/1/2006 Walkabout
5/2/2006 Walkabout
5/3/2006 - 5/15/2006 ?
5/16/2006 Mark of the Panther
5/17/2006 Mark of the Panther
5/18/2006 ?
5/19/2006 Eye of the Storm
5/20/2006 Eye of the Storm
5/21/2006 Eye of the Storm
5/22/2006 The New Olypians
5/23/2006 The New Olypians
5/24/2006 The Green
5/25/2006 The Green
5/26/2006 The Green
5/27/2006 - 6/9/2006 ?
6/10/2006 Sentinel
6/11/2006 Sentinel
6/12/2006 ?
6/13/2006 ?
6/14/2006 Bushido
6/15/2006 Bushido
6/16/2006 Cloud Fathers
6/17/2006 Cloud Fathers
6/18/2006 Cloud Fathers/Reunion
6/19/2006 Shambahla
6/20/2006 - 7/3/2006 ?
7/4/2006 Ill Met By Moonlight
7/5/2006 Ill Met By Moonlight
7/6/2006 Ill Met By Moonlight
7/7/2006 ?
7/8/2006 Future Tense
7/9/2006 End of the World Tour

Please allow me to post my question from earlier again, since we're on the topic of post Clan Buiding:

How much of 1997 (future issues of the comic) will be spent filling in the gaps of the World Tour? Do you think it'll be years before we know every single stop on their six month journey, let alone why Avalon sent them there in the first place?
Octavio Valentine
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 4:23:22 pm EST from 159.240.11.254

Post Clan Building stories> I have no clue what I want or expect. You guys have already mentioned some possibilities. I'm glad we're getting Timedancer events so soon. I'm glad with new stories in general, as well as a number of surprises.
Asatira
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 4:00:16 pm EST from 97.82.58.208

Well, I put it in quotes, but Clan Building is clearly not a season. I think we'll know when Greg's "Season three" finale is when we get there.
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 3:53:02 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Greg B reminds me of something i've wondered about, Season classification.

Seasons 1 and 2 are pretty clear cut, but then we get to the comics and "Seasons" don't fit so well. Is Clan-Building 1-12 Season Three, will the next 12 story arc be Season Four? If not, when do we decide Season Three has ended? Should we even be using the term Season anymore?
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 3:47:56 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Let's see, on the check list of Greg's season three plans:

We've already seen:
The Double Date
The Return of Thailog
More of the Illuminati
Coldstone in the Himalayas
Coldsteel and Coyote
Jeffrey Robbins finds out Hudson is a gargoyle.

We're going to see Timedancer

What's left?
The Return of Demona
Coyote 6.0 and the Ultra Pack
Raven kidnapping Alex
Goliath's trial
Queen Mab
The Weird Macbeth.
Duval

Am I missing any?

Now, we have a few new ones.
Shari's identity, though we have probably guessed this one.
Thailog and Sevarius's new clones
Maggie's baby.

Yeah, "season three" is going to be a full plate indeed.
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 3:17:13 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Greg B> Ah but Xanatos is a very good liar and every good liar knows when to sprinkle his falsehoods with truth. A good example of this is Raven in "Heritage".

As for the post-Clan Building comic? My guess is we'll probably see a big Quarrymen storyline coming, we haven't seen them in a while. Between Thailog, the Stone of Destiny, Timedancer and everything else that's been bouncing around the comic it won't feel like they're hijacking the whole series like they did in TGC.
Algernon
The pen is mightier than the sword if the sword is very short, and the pen is very sharp.- Terry Pratchett
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 3:07:34 pm EST from 83.71.96.222

Octavio> With "Reunion" I'm pretty sure every World Tour stop has been shown. However, Jade/Turquesa probably had an Avalon adventure or two and King Arthur had one Avalon adventure before going to London, and none of those are known to us, so maybe one day...

The Magus definitly wrote something down in the Grmorum, Xanatos might've been telling the truth about that, at least. Hasn't Greg been asked this before? Or did he answer elusively?

Future stories> So many of the "unmade stories" were shown in Clan-Building (the Double Date story, the Coldstone World Tour story, the Stone of Destiny story, the Timedancer pilot story) that there are only a few ideas Greg has mentioned that we can expect in the future. The Tricksters kidnapping Alex is a possibility, and the Manhattan Clan performing "Macbeth". No matter what happens, it'll be interesting. The best stuff from Clan-Building is the stuff Greg never mentioned to us at all.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 3:03:29 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

My hopes for #13-plus -- I just hope we get the liscence officially renewed (even though SLG says that they have every intention of doing so, I'll be happy to hear its official.)

And Greg: When you do re-watch, I beleive you see the Magus writing just before Constantine says his little line of "I don't think I like Gargoyle Eggs." Hope that helps.
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 2:57:12 pm EST from 201.143.135.67

Phoenician> I'll have to re-watch the episode, as I don't recall it off the top of my head.

So, with "Clan Building" coming to an end with #12, #13 and onward are almost a blank slate. What are you hoping for?

I'm sure this comes as no surprise, but I'm hoping Demona steps back into the picture then.
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 2:53:57 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Greg: So that scene in "Avalon, Part I" where the Magus is scribbling in the Grimmorum, do you think he was just doodling?

I always considered that scene to show that, yeah, while Xanatos lied about everything else, the Magus may have actually wrote the account down.
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 2:50:34 pm EST from 201.143.135.67

How much of 1997 (future issues of the comic) will be spent filling in the gaps of the World Tour? Do you think it'll be years before we know every single stop on their six month journey, let alone why Avalon sent them there in the first place?
Octavio Valentine
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 2:43:25 pm EST from 159.240.11.254

BB-*hugs* naw, we all can have a lapse once and a while. no worries ^_^
It's not like their names are mentioned much during the series. That's why we have the Wiki
Wingless
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 1:17:32 pm EST from 99.245.254.123

I feel sooo stupid for asking that question! Me! a fan since 1994 and I don't even know who those two - Mary and Finella - are!

I feel so stupid right now... go ahead and laugh at me!
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 1:08:06 pm EST from 161.184.65.92

Rebel> I think it is outside the range of possibility. This is Demona we're talking about here. She would never have just handed it over, hell if she had the book in her possession at all, I think she would have done a lot more damage with it well before 1994. If anything, Xanatos probably made sure she was the one under close supervision anytime she was in twenty feet of the book.

Patrick> I always thought the notion that Xanatos saying the Magus wrote down the story of the gargoyles to be, well, bullcrap. About as credible as "I saw her a year ago and was so impressed, I acquired her for my private collection. After I woke you up, it seemed a trip to the castle might have the same affect on her."

Every other thing Xanatos said to them in "Awakening" was a lie.
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:28:43 am EST from 67.87.175.245

Vinnie > "Not from my point of view. If Demona was the one who gave Xanatos the Grimorum then why would she need Brooklyn to steal it back in Temptations? She could have ripped out any pages she wanted before giving it to Xanatos if she gave it to him."

Maybe she didn't want to rip any pages out. Personally, if I had a spell book that was over 1000 years old, I wouldn't rip out any pages.

Anyway, I'm not saying this is what happened (clearly, it didn't). I was just defending Michael, pointing out that his thoughts weren't entirely outside the range of possibility. I like this comment room, but some of the more diehard fans here often rudely or condescendingly "shoot down" other people's thoughts and ideas, which really grates on my nerves (note: I'm not talking about ANYONE in particular...lots of people seem to do this).
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 11:20:08 am EST from 24.227.200.138

Speculating:

10 - Cliffhanger of Brooklyn disappearing
11 - Brooklyn coming back (5 minutes later) with new "friends" and telling one
of his many adventures, probably the one of how he met his "friends"
12 - Tying up all the Clan Building loose ends and setting up the next story arc
Octavio Valentine
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 10:05:25 am EST from 159.240.11.254

thor> So far, there's just the first half, but if we (the fans) buy enough of the existing DVDs, the second half may be released eventually.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 8:34:20 am EST from 199.38.51.134

Greg B> Yes, I know Clan Building ends at #12, I was asking if the Timedancer story was #10-12.
Thanks Ntripy for providing that info.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 7:50:25 am EST from 24.207.163.239

<<Greg has said that Brook will return with a permanent injury of some sort.>>

Could even be a brain injury. A swiss-cheese memory is the biggest hazard of time travel, or so I've heard.

182 days left until The Gathering 2008 in Chicago, Illinois!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"Never go in against a Sicilian when DEATH is on the line!" - Vizzini, "The Princess Bride"
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 7:03:47 am EST from 99.161.91.215

Rebel:<I don't think Michael's necessarily too far off base. After all, from Demona's perspective, giving Xanatos the Grimorum could have been an exchange for Goliath (and the other clan members)...she'd finally be able to see him (and them) again.>

Not from my point of view. If Demona was the one who gave Xanatos the Grimorum then why would she need Brooklyn to steal it back in Temptations? She could have ripped out any pages she wanted before giving it to Xanatos if she gave it to him.

On Mary and Finella: I'm hoping to find out how long those two were Timedancing with Brooklyn before settling in the 1970's.
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]
It's silly. It's a silly movie. There just isn't much there. Once you take it all apart, there's not much story, is there?- George Lucas on Spider-Man 3
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 5:17:10 am EST from 69.54.209.91

I'm not sure Karine's error has to be corrected -- or even regarded as an error. I mean look at F&M carefully.

Mary's almost completely covered up. A facial every now and then, and how do you know she isn't twenty years older?

As for Finella - Hair dye and a personal trainer.

I mean as long as these ladies take care of themselves, why shouldn't they still look fairly close to how we remember them. This ain't the Eleventh Century, right? Isn't fifty the new forty anyway?
L.T. Williams
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 3:23:37 am EST from 71.93.81.240

Battle Beast: Would be too long to describe who Finella is-soooo:
http://gargoyles.dracandros.com/Finella
As for Mary - In a nutshell, She's Gardian Tom's Mother.
http://gargoyles.dracandros.com/Mary
Wingless
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 2:52:10 am EST from 99.245.254.123

so season 2 vol. 2 is that happening at all or am i stuck with the first half of it?
thor - [pirateburke86 at yahoo dot com]
thro god of thunder
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 1:22:40 am EST from 208.54.15.158

I must be pretty stupid! Who are MAry and Finella? (And I will smack my head when I hear the answer, I'm sure...)
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Fri, Dec 28, 2007 12:51:26 am EST from 161.184.65.92

Yep, one story;

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=9302

"CLAN-BUILDING
Story #1 - Issue #1 ("Nightwatch") and Issue #2 ("The Journey")
Story #2 - Issue #3 ("Invitation Only") and Issue #4 ("Masque") and Issue #5 ("Bash")
Story #3 - Issue #6 ("Reunion")
Story #4 - Issue #7 ("The Rock") and Issue #8 (TBA) and Issue #9 (TBA)
Story #5 - Issue #10 (TBA) and Issue #11 (TBA) and Issue #12 (TBA)"
Ntripy
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 11:45:05 pm EST from 72.232.196.138

Matt> Greg has said that Clan Building ends at #12, so yeah, I think it's one story.
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 11:38:20 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Just for reference concerning what is going on when Brook dissapears/reappears:

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=3741

Are we sure 10-12 are just one story?
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 11:32:11 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Vicky:Greg has said that Brook will return with a permanent injury of some sort.

Gargs#10: I'm glad and anxious that we are getting close to Timedancer.. be a great teaser to see Brook and Co be on the last page of #12..
Starlioness
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 10:16:55 pm EST from 206.188.56.113

Rebel "As I see it, Timedancer just about *has* to cover Brooklyn's acquisition of Fu-Dog, his big injury,"

Wait a minute what 'Big Injury' I never heard that one before.
Vicky82 - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 8:33:28 pm EST from 195.93.21.4

Phil> I got the info here;

http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0712/27/index.htm

Timedancer> Yeah, it'll be interesting to see which perspective 10-12 is told from.

It could be from Brooklyn's perspective, so we would see him grab the gate and then follow him on his first adventure.

But if thats the case, then the perspective will suddenly change at the end of his first adventure(from Brooklyn's perspective to the rest of the clan's perspective) when he arrives back 5 minutes later, 40 years older.

The only way I can think to tell the story from the same perspective all the way through is to show it from the clan's point of view from the start.

So, Brooklyn grabs the gate and disappears, the rest of the clan go wtf for 5 minutes and then Brooklyn returns. Brook then explains what happened and tells them about his first adventure.

In that case, the time dance story is told as a flashback and could even be narrated by Brooklyn, and the mini series could be done like that as well.
Ntripy
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 8:11:08 pm EST from 72.232.196.138

Xanatos had to get hold of the Grimorum long before he brought Castle Wyvern to New York City. The story the Magus had written inside it was what gave him the idea in the first place.
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"Never go in against a Sicilian when DEATH is on the line!" - Vizzini, "The Princess Bride"
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 7:50:21 pm EST from 99.161.91.215

Greg's description of Brooklyn's Timedancer adventures at the Gathering 2001 suggested that Brooklyn came upon the Phoenix Gate (or will come upon it) while out on a routine patrol with Broadway and Angela (or - it was routine until then), rather than in the middle of a fight. Though there'll probably still be action when he has to help Mary and Finella out against Constantine's soldiers.

I remember, not long after coming upon the description of "Timedancer", commenting that the title gave me the vision of the Phoenix Gate transporting Brooklyn to the 70's, where he appears in a disco, wearing a white disco suit and dark glasses. After I posted that creativity demon here, I got a few alarmed responses from other readers; my favorite response ran something like this: "You're beginning to scare me. I tried picturing that image of Brooklyn, and it morphed into him dressed up like Elvis and singing "You Ain't Nothing But A Hound Dog" to Bronx at Graceland."
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 7:38:00 pm EST from 4.244.209.197

I don't think Michael's necessarily too far off base. After all, from Demona's perspective, giving Xanatos the Grimorum could have been an exchange for Goliath (and the other clan members)...she'd finally be able to see him (and them) again. Presumably, she was still somewhat in love with him at that point. Plus, she was probably awfully lonely, being the last of her clan (and nearly the last of her kind). Demona's pretty ruthless, but I could see her making a bad decision in a moment of weakness.

It's not a likely scenario, but it's not entirely un-plausible.
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 7:34:50 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

I must say, this has probably been the best year for Gargoyles since 1994-1996. That is something to be thankful for. And 2008 may be even better.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 7:01:33 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Michael> Okay, think about it. Do you really think Demona would have handed the Grimorum over to Xanatos? All those powerful spells, things she could potentially use. I don't think so.
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 5:09:06 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

I had always assumed that Demona had acquired the Grimorum in the eleventh century and kept it until she gave it to Xanatos the day before Goliath's reawakening.
Michael Ejercito - [mejercit at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 5:06:24 pm EST from 75.142.107.43

I'd like to see Mary and Finella in larger roles in the future. Now, I know they'll be in Timedancer, whichever adventure that will be. But I'd like something in present day, with some interaction with the clan. It'd be nice to have an in person resolution of their roles, so to speak.
Asatira
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 3:44:30 pm EST from 97.82.58.208

Greg: Just being curious outloud. I remember Karine's post back in the summer and knew it was an error.

Yet there have been times where he's come up with a cool explanation for certain scenes and events (like Tom's explanation to Goliath from earlier this year). He's even mentioned how he came up with explanations after an episode that effected others (like how Demona's eyes turned red not because it was sign she the evil one but rather that all females' eyes turned red).

But then again, we DID see how he corrected Macbeth's corronation in the comic (which was errored on the TV show) so, hey, he probably will fix the error in Bash as well. Again, I was just thinking outloud . . . .
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 2:46:18 pm EST from 201.143.135.67

Rebel> Here's Karine's old post on the matter:

********

"On page one, Judge Roebling is speaking to "Mary" and "Finella". I noticed once the art was in the can that Greg had pointed out their apparent ages in the character descriptions in the script annex, and they should look about, oh, twenty years older or so. My mistake, unfortunately.

*******
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 2:45:36 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Rebel> You are. Karine Charlebois posted in here shortly after #5 came out that the script called for them to look twenty years older, and she made a mistake. It's an artistic error.

Artistic errors are not canon, hence, 1020 Demona does not appear for a few seconds to yell at the Captain.
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 2:36:16 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Oh, nevermind. Has Greg actually acknowledged that this was an artistic error?
Rebel
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 2:35:23 pm EST from 76.165.35.137

Have they really lived in the U.S. for 20 years? I'm not so sure...I know they arrived there in the 70s to help mastermind the plot involving Demona and Xanatos, but in looking at the art in #5 (or was it 4?) they don't look like they've aged much at all (and it seems like if they had aged 20 years, a more conscious effort would have been made to make them seem older). I had sort of assumed that maybe they'd finished getting Demona and Xanatos together, and then been dropped off by Brooklyn in the mid-90s (precisely why, I'm not sure). I could be quite wrong though. I often am. :)
Rebel
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 2:33:44 pm EST from 76.165.35.137

Phoenician> Why would Greg change his story because of an artistic error?

Oh, how about a time traveling Demona yelling at the Captain of the Guard in "City of Stone" part one? That's not an artistic error, 1020 Demona appeared for a moment.

See what I mean?
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 2:31:04 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Quarrymen: Thanks Ed, on that explanation . . . I was just curious where the most notorious of the "Season 3 villains" (no doubt thanks to TGC) disappeared to.

#10, "The Gate" . . . can I just say, YES!! Oh, I don't even know what to expect, since I imagine #8 & #9 will completely change my perception about this comic series!

Mary & Finella: I've always wondered if they'll ever end up in Avalon. But I also wonder if Greg will try and correct the "age" issue in "Bash" or if he'll simply make their Timedance occur in the 1990's rather than the 1970's.
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 2:28:46 pm EST from 201.143.135.67

Yes, that would be nice. I hope that they'll be introduced to the modern Manhattan Clan and Goliath will tell them about the Avalon Clan and how to get there. But they have lived in the U.S. for 20 years. Would Mary be willing to leave her life there to go to Avalon? I think so, but it would be hard. And then Finella would have to come to Avalon also, or be left in the U.S. without the only other person from 995.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 2:15:13 pm EST from 209.162.56.40

I hope Mary and Finella can one day go to Avalon. I'd love for her to see her son Tom again someday.
Rebel
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 2:07:16 pm EST from 76.165.35.137

Michael> Xanatos has to get the Grimorum somehow.
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 1:34:18 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

I wonder why Greg chose to have Mary and Finella end up in the twentieth century, instead of living the rest of their lives in the eleventh century.
Michael Ejercito - [mejercit at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 1:23:05 pm EST from 75.142.107.43

What adventure do you think will be shown in the normal comic ? Broklens also gona have to say sonmthing about were Katana and ect. came from when he returns so maybe we'll get some of those stories too
bob
bob
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 1:02:06 pm EST from 66.202.98.61

YAY TIMEDANCER!!

<<We know that in "Rock of Ages" Xanatos will make his final play for the Stone of Destiny while the gargoyles are asleep. Wouldn't it be interesting if Jade and Turquesa show up to stop him on their World Tour?>>

That would be neat, but I'd expect their Tour to be over by New Years.

REBEL >> That would be strange. I hadn't considered that Timedancer might be set up that way. I think the first adventure may be the first they show, just to establish how Timedancing works, and to explain (finally) what Mary and Finella are doing in "Bash". Because I think anyone who isn't privy to the canon-in-training information must be really confused, if they recognize those two. But if as Greg B. says, the first adventure will be #10-12, then I have no idea.

PHIL > Does Thailog know about the Eye of Odin or the Grimorum? Demona can't know that they were stolen by the Weird Sisters, she and Macbeth remember nothing after City of Stone until Paris. Possibly Shari knows the Eye is neutralized, but I doubt she's told Thailog that yet.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 1:00:36 pm EST from 209.162.56.40

I know Timedancer is only going to cover a snippet of the 40 years, but does anyone have an inkling of *which* snippet? Is it going to skip around through the 40 years, or is it going to just cover as many of Brooklyn's early adventures as possible?

As I see it, Timedancer just about *has* to cover Brooklyn's acquisition of Fu-Dog, his big injury, his first meeting with Katana and the subsequent evolution of their relationship, the birth of Nashville, Tachi's egg being layed...there's just so many important things to cover that it just seems like it's going to feel rushed.

Another thing that would be fun to ponder is what "format" the story is going to take. Is it going to follow Brooklyn around in a linear format (at least, from Brooklyn's perspective)? Or, could it literally go in chronological order (in other words, starting at Brooklyn's earliest adventure *in time*, not from his perspective, and ending with one of his latest chronological adventures, which interestingly enough could be one of the early ones from his perspective...in other words, another story that plays around with linear-ness). I can't wait to see how this story is told.
Rebel
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 12:45:22 pm EST from 76.165.35.137

Bob> We see Brooklyn leave, his first adventure, and his return. The spin-off itself covers what happened between his first adventure and return. That's how Greg always described it anyway.
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 12:21:29 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Phil> I considered that as well, but does Thailog know anything about that? Maybe he learned it once he came back to Nightstone or something... I dunno. It seems to me that he'd have to know it was destroyed, where it was destroyed, that there was something worth having in the rubble, etc. And if he knew all that, you would think he'd know that he didn't need to dig for anything and/or that Demona already retrieved the Crystal...
I think it is something new. I've been pondering what other piles of rubble we've seen near New York in the series. The place looks like the Cloisters, but there was no rubble there. Could it be somewhere in the Eyrie Building?
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 12:19:04 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

does any1 know if Amazon is still selling the comics. they only have up to 6 and normally they have them 2 weeks after their release. cant wait for timedancer but i cant see how it can last for 3 comics unless Broklen tells about some of his adventures
bob
bob
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 12:16:27 pm EST from 66.202.98.61

What were Thailog and Brentwood digging for? I don't have my copy of #7 here in front of me, but I recall pillars in the background of that scene. I'm just guessing, but I've thought they might be at the ruins of St. Damien's looking for the Atlantean crystal that Demona already retrieved.
Phil - [p1anderson at go dot com]
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 12:10:19 pm EST from 134.215.196.82

"Myself, I am dying to know what Thailog and Brentwood are digging up in "The Rock". Maybe that will feature into #10-12..."

Indeed. I've been wondering about that too.
Rebel
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 11:43:57 am EST from 76.165.35.137

I agree with DPH. The clones (or whatever) probably won't be ready. But we don't really know what Sevarius is cooking up ("breakfast?") and this is "Clan-Building", so we'll just wait and see.

Myself, I am dying to know what Thailog and Brentwood are digging up in "The Rock". Maybe that will feature into #10-12...
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 11:29:38 am EST from 24.207.163.239

Well, if he attacked at the Halloween party, then he probably started "growing" them shortly after, so basically at the beginning of November. I think they could conceivably be ready by New Year's.
Rebel
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 11:22:07 am EST from 76.165.35.137

When Thailog's new clones get revealed, I expect it to be in a story that focuses on them. Not as throwaways for Brooklyn and Katana to show how badass they are, that would be lame.
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 11:20:52 am EST from 67.87.175.245

Rebel - One problem with that theory. There's no way that the new 'clones' could show up in even by episode 12. It takes 2-3 months to grow clones.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 11:15:53 am EST from 98.20.237.134

That's true. He may not. Then again, it could be a nice opportunity to tie up this loose end with Thailog. Since he's got DNA samples from all the clan members, he's probably planning on making more clones. Maybe in 10 - 12, it will be revealed that Thailog has been doing some "clan-building" of his own...in a very literal sense. If this were the case, a showdown at the final hour could be very poetic...but, that's just me.
Rebel
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 11:14:06 am EST from 76.165.35.137

I'm wondering where Ntripy found the title for Gargoyles #10. I don't doubt the information, but I'm just curious. It seems odd that we know the title for Gargoyles #10, which comes out (hopefully) in June, but we don't have a title for Bad Guys #3, which comes out in March.
Phil - [p1anderson at go dot com]
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 11:11:40 am EST from 134.215.196.82

Rebel> I guess the idea of Brook and Co showing up at the turn of the battle to defeat the bad guys strikes me as funny somehow. Unexpected.
Anyway, I get what you mean, and it could work well, honestly, but I just don't see Greg going that direction.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 11:06:53 am EST from 24.207.163.239

"I hope the dissapearence and return are a bit more poignant than a battle scene. I don't want it to be funny, I want it to be hopeful and joyful."

Matt >> What makes you think a to the (near) death battle would be at all "funny"?
Rebel
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 10:46:16 am EST from 76.165.35.137

Matt> We know Greg Weisman doesn't look at fan art or read fan related stories, so does he look at polls?
> The Mayan Clan would be awesome to see, but I think Macbeth and Arthur will be able to take care of Coyote and Coldsteel.

Rebel> A day doesn't go by where I don't think about Gargoyles being back on TV. If only...
Octavio Valentine
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 10:38:05 am EST from 159.240.11.254

Sorry for the double post.

Totally random speculation/creativity demon:
We know that in "Rock of Ages" Xanatos will make his final play for the Stone of Destiny while the gargoyles are asleep. Wouldn't it be interesting if Jade and Turquesa show up to stop him on their World Tour?
Or maybe I'm simply desperate to see the Mayan Clan again...
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 10:09:14 am EST from 24.207.163.239

I hope the dissapearence and return are a bit more poignant than a battle scene. I don't want it to be funny, I want it to be hopeful and joyful.

Rebel> Actually, a close look at 1-7 shows MANY instances of Clan-Building. The Quarrymen, the Labyrinth Clan, the Mutates, the Manhattan Clan, Thailog/Shari/Brentwood, etc.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 9:25:03 am EST from 24.207.163.239

I can't wait to see the Gargoyles faces when Brooklyn turns up with his new family. Anything can happen in 5 minutes.
IVicky82 - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 9:15:00 am EST from 195.93.21.4

It would be so much if Brooklyn disappeared right in the middle of a battle. The villain could essentially defeat the gargoyles and be right about to kill them, and then suddenly Brooklyn could reappear with his whole family and kick ass. Haha that would pwn.
Rebel
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 9:09:39 am EST from 76.165.35.137

Phoenician: Actually a bunch of villains are missing -- Brentwood, Sevarius, Castaway, Sarah Browne, Demona. But most of these had small scenes or weren't in opposition to the clan at that moment. That said, after deciding to do a category for the Illuminati (instead of Hacker, Hemings, Shari etc individually), I should have remembered to do the same with the Quarrymen -- sorry about that.

(And I too love the concept of the Quarrymen and they may well become my favourite group of villains. As an organisation, it's terrifying; as individuals, they're fascinating).

Purplegoldfish: 'Masque' is great. I like it much better in sequence I've got to say. Really builds suspense.

Ntripy: Well. That is a surprise! Very exciting... got to say I feel kind of sad. Only three more issues of the teenage Trio. I really did expect 'Clan-Building' to end on some kind of note of climax with Thailog's story and while there's no evidence that it won't, the timedancer set-up throws up a lot of issues to deal with.

Robby: Best of luck getting the gig full time!
Ed Reynolds
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 8:57:17 am EST from 213.187.39.204

Wow. Timedancer is happening so soon. I guess that's fitting though, because now the "Clan-Building" title makes more sense. For the first seven issues, we haven't seen ANY new gargoyles added to the clan. Now, we will at least get four new members (if you count Fu-Dog and Tachi in egg form) though there could be more. Also I guess Maggie being preggers counts as clan-building too, though it's a different clan.

This is really crazy when you think about it. I certainly LOVE the comic...but when you think about it, if the show had lasted *just a little bit* longer, we'd have seen all this on TV. Man.
Rebel
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 8:09:05 am EST from 76.165.35.137

Yep, we were right about Clan-Building ending with Timedancer. Great ending (assuming 10-12 are one story).
Looks like all those "poor Brooklyn" moments are going to climax with this one.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 7:12:22 am EST from 24.207.163.239

Best Abstention From Another Round of Year-End Best Lists: Me

Reminder: The price of Gathering pre-registration goes up as of January 1st, so there's no better time to get yourself signed up than RIGHT NOW.

183 days left until The Gathering 2008 in Chicago, Illinois!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"I like Shrek." - Dr. Robert Neville, "I Am Legend"
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 6:57:09 am EST from 99.161.91.215

Wow, thanks, Ntripy! So Brooklyn's Timedancer adventures are indeed coming up next. I'm looking forward to that.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 6:36:18 am EST from 4.244.211.205

Looks like we were right;

GARGOYLES #10

By Greg Weisman and David Hedgecock.

"The Gate." Brooklyn could really use some time away from the Clan, but when the time-traveling Phoenix Gate materializes before his eyes, maybe the phrase "look, but donít touch" should have come to mind. Careful what you wish for, Brooklyn!

24 pages, $3.95.
Ntripy
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 5:26:15 am EST from 72.232.196.138

Ed: That's true, though we don't have a full story for #7 until we get #8 and #9. I felt #4 was well paced and suspensful and had a nice balance of humour and drama. But I just love #5 and #7 too. That's such a hard question because the stories are so interconnected.
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 2:22:26 am EST from 69.183.162.111

I just took a look at the poll Ed posted... Now I have to go through all the issues again and put in a well thought out vote...

Fun...
The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood (>X_x)> So tired...
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 12:52:11 am EST from 72.199.225.9

I'm down in Ensenada, Mexico right now (just got here after a six hour drive), so I just found out about the Gargy's! Great idea, Ed -- WHat better way to celebrate the first year of NEW CANON.

Anyways, here's my choices, along with some commentary . . . .

Best Story -- Clan-Building, Chapter Seven: "The Rock" has been a pleasure to read not just the first time, but the second-through-sixteenth times as well. It's a wonderfuly herald of just how awesome Gargoyles is going to be in the coming year!

Best Art -- Though I was very tempted to pick Karine Charlebois's work in "Bash," I can't deny how much Hedgecock has improved by "The Rock." I wasn't once bothered by the art in this issue, and one can't deny how much he's improved since "Nightwatch" of last year.

Best Writer -- For all the NEW CANON, Greg Weisman YOU are the Man.

Best Color Artist -- Again, tempted to pick the #5 team, but the colors in #7 felt right to me as well, so my vote went to Robby Bevard.

Best Cover -- Masque's cover was the first cover to be story-orientated, and that moon is just gorgeous. It didn't spoil any plot yet it caught my eye the most.

Best Title -- "Masque:" A Weisman title if I ever saw one. :P

Best Lead -- This one was hard, but in the end I went for Elisa. She's had some of the most character-growth since #2, "The Journey", and she still has some awesome lines. Kudos to Xanatos, Lexington, Brooklyn, and Goliath for reasons others have mentioned.

Best Antagonist -- First, a question: What happened to listing Castaway and the Quarrymen? They WERE In #3 (and spotted in #4). And though they wouldn't have gotten my vote anywways, you have to admit they are are far better antogonist than their TGC counterparts. Anyways, Illuminati Society got my vote. They've had a steady prescense all year, and the mysteries and revelations they've provided have lit this CR with more entusiasem than I've ever seen before.

Best New Character -- Though I loved Hemmings appearance, this one had to go to Shari. She's kept us on our toes since Invitation Only, not just on what her name was, but also her loyalties AND her nature as well (Human or Third Race? And either way, IS she Sharazhade?) Now if we could get a last name . . . . :D

Best Ongoing Subplot -- Xanatos's assignment has intrigued me since Hacker entered the Eyrie Building, and I'm looking forward to finding out what exactly it has to do with "The Rock" (if it does, anyways).

Best Mystery -- I went for the "What seeds were sown in Tibet?" even though I do beleive we know of few of them already: The Tibet trip from the World Tour eventually led to the separation of the Coldstone's three souls. The remaining seeds are definitely what happened in Shambala . . . and knowing Greg, we'll find out soon enough.

Best Twist -- The most awesome ending of any comic in either series so far, it's one thing that Shari is even an Illuminati member at all. It's just another thing that she's a "Nine" of all levels. Again, that girl's keeping us on our toes!

Best Cliffhanger -- I knew I was going to vote for the sight of "King Arthur and the London clan arrive" the moment I saw it listed. I absolutely remember when I had to look twice when I spotted Macbeth getting caught by Pendragon himself. And my jaw dropped when I saw the new London clan members as well (though it was so-so predictable to see them appearing in #7-#9 . . . and FYI by jaw dropped when Shari was revealed as a Society member). Still, since its a tendancy to look ahead in the comics (though I don't mean to), its also a tendancy to be spoiled as a result, and I just spotted King Arther and Macbeth JUST at the right moment of reading the comic. I credit the entire comic-team for writing/designing the issue just perfectly for that!

Best Narrative Innovation -- Though we still have to see how it'll workout in #8 & #9, I'm confident that Greg's Non-linear storytelling will create a legendary story for Garg fans, so that got my vote.

So there ya go: My ramblings. Can't wait to see what the results are!
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Thu, Dec 27, 2007 12:32:48 am EST from 201.143.135.67

So why are SLG/Creature Comics having such a hard time picking a permanent colorist? I am glad at least we get the same colorist for an entire story arc, that will be nice.

REBEL >> It is also possible that the thylacines survived on their own, or were kept and bred in a research facility. Even in the real world, it is possible they are still alive near some remaining forest fragments in Tasmania, there have been many sightings near there.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Wed, Dec 26, 2007 11:40:14 pm EST from 209.162.56.40

Rebel> That idea has been bouncing around since the day "Strangers" was released. I'd say it was pretty likely.

I can't help but wonder what Greg W's opinions on the poll will be...
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Wed, Dec 26, 2007 11:13:10 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

On the matter of the SLG comic coloring...

Jorge Molina just colored the cover to issue 8. By the time I came on board, 5 different covers (including issue 7) hadn't been done yet for press and for solicitation, so in order to get all the covers colored in time, Jorge did the issue 8 cover. (If I'd come in a week earlier or had one less project on my plate, I could have done that one too.) He did a really great job, the cover looks pretty awesome. (I dunno if the image has been released proper anywhere yet, so I won't talk too much about what it actually looks like.)

I *officially* came on board to color the book for issues 7-9, I'm coloring issue 8 right now. I'll also be helping tone Badguys starting with issue 2 and probably through the end of that series. (I've already colored BG covers 2, 3 and 4) No *official* word on if I'll be coloring the book with issues 10 and up, but I'm really enjoying myself, folks seem to like what I'm doing, and I don't intend to go anywhere. They'll have to drag me kicking and screaming off of it. This is one of my dream gigs, after all.
Robby Bevard
posted @ Wed, Dec 26, 2007 11:04:14 pm EST from 64.12.117.134

VA -- Here's the gargwiki page.

http://gargoyles.dracandros.com/Rock_and_Roll

Bevard will be doing the art inside the issue, but Molina will be doing the cover.
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Wed, Dec 26, 2007 10:58:30 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

Damn, nobody is posting tonight. Another double post, just to share something I thought about (which someone else may have already mentioned, but I'm not going to paw through weeks of comments to check).

A lot of people have mentioned that the "Tasmanian Tiger" villain is very cheesy. I would definitely agree with that. But it seems like maybe he has an important purpose and that we may be seeing more of him. We all know how Greg doesn't waste characters or items in the Gargverse. I have a feeling we'll be seeing TT again sometime. Even if we don't see him again, I bet we will definitely see those two thylacines again (which brings me to another point--the fact that this guy either has the ability to clone an extinct animal or has access to people who can is intriguing...it seems like there must be something up...maybe Sevarious made a trip to Australia?).

Anyway, so here's my fun thought. The original pack is (correct me if I'm wrong) more-or-less down to Hyena, Jackal, and Wolf. Well...a Tasmanian Tiger is "more or less" a canine, right? (At least as much of a canine as a Hyena is...for all who didn't know, Hyenas aren't actually canines). What if this guy ends up joining up with the remaining pack members somehow (though I have NO clue what sort of circumstances would cause this)? That'd be loads of fun. Think about it--as of now, he's about as "cheesy" as The Pack were when they started out. I bet he'd even be "upgraded" too. And maybe he'd have his thylacines upgraded. That would definitely make matters interesting. If this were the case, I doubt we'd see him again in Bad Guys, but maybe in the main series.

Anyway, I doubt this particular idea will happen, but it's just a thought. I guess the point that I'm trying to make is that this weird character who doesn't quite fit may have a higher purpose for the series as a whole--and even his "cheesiness" might have an important purpose. Who knows where he'll show up again?
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Wed, Dec 26, 2007 10:56:18 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

They aren't keeping Robby Bevard? Are we ever going to have a permanent color artist?

I did not like the oversized steroided muscles on Nir Paniry's art, but he does great faces. (Or is Nir Paniry a she?)
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Wed, Dec 26, 2007 10:49:32 pm EST from 209.162.56.40

OCTAVIO > Oh, my bad. I thought it was actually in the comic, lol. I'm not all that familiar with Aqua Teen.
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Wed, Dec 26, 2007 9:54:22 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

Rebel> It's a joke for the Aqua Teen fans.
Octavio Valentine
posted @ Wed, Dec 26, 2007 9:52:49 pm EST from 70.15.84.29

Wow, triple post.

Correction. COVER color artist.
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Wed, Dec 26, 2007 9:25:12 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

Sorry for the double post.

OCTAVIO >>
"For the Aqua Teen fans, I nominate Amp's line in #8.

Amp: "I wanna be called Spaghetti.""

How do you know this? Did I miss something?

Secondly, in regards to #8--

Is anyone familiar with the work of next colorist, Jorge Molina?
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Wed, Dec 26, 2007 9:23:37 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

I have no idea who I would choose, if I could pick which fill-in artist I think would be best if Hedgecock couldn't do an issue. Since Karine is doing Bad Guys now (and, perhaps future Gargoyles spin-offs?) is she out-of-the-picture as far as being a fill-in artist on the main series? She's certain to be really busy with Bad Guys and everything else she's doing. I would really like it if Karine was the artist on the main series, but I will say that Karine was probably the best choice to do Bad Guys and any other black-and-white spin-off series. Her art looks fabulous in color, but since she is (IMO) the best artist that Gargoyles has available, her art is able to "stand alone" better than anyone else's could. Her art doesn't *need* color to look great.

There are some things that I really liked about Purcell's art. I was not a fan of how he made Angela look, but overall he was quite good. I really liked the "pencilly" lines that were there, that none of the other artists have had. I'm not sure why I like them, but I do. But then again, Paniry was awesome too. I LOVED how he made the characters' muscles bulge when they became emotional. His art was very, very different, but it was different in a good way. Everything looks so bad-ass when he draws it. I actually think Paniry would be a great choice to do some covers some day. I think his style would be well suited for that.

(Incidentally, does anyone know if another mini-series will begin immediately when Bad Guys ends, or are we going to have to wait several months before the next one starts? If the latter is the case, is the main series going to start having issues monthly, or is that not likely? Lastly, by the time it is time to do the next mini-series, if sales have been good, is there any chance the next one could be in color?)
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Wed, Dec 26, 2007 9:17:19 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

My votes and thoughts:

Best Story: I had to vote for "Bash". It was emotional, powerful, and it was so tight. Goliath and Elisa declaring their love at the end, as well as the Thailog/Shari/Illuminati twist make this a favorite.

Best Art: Again, "Bash". Karine and Steph made a great team, and this is the most beautiful looking issue so far.

Best Writer: Greg Weisman by default. Let's get Cary Bates and Michael Reaves to write some again, just so we can get some competition here ;)

Best Artist: Karine Charlebois, of course.

Best Color Artist: Stephanie Lostimolo by a hair. It was tough to choose between her and Robby Bevard. Both are great and both are friends, but... Steph, by a hair.

Best Cover: #5, I mean, geeze!

Best Title: I have to vote for "Masque".

Best Lead Character: I gave this one to Goliath. Though this was a tough one, since the leads haven't really done as much compared to some of the villains.

Best Antagonist: Thailog. Evil, fun, and you know he's up to something. Something big. The Illuminati almost got my vote, but not quite yet. Xanatos, well, he's just begun something new. If 8 and 9 were out, I suspect he'd have given Thailog a lot more competition.

Best New Character: Shari. By a wide margin. Though, I suspect next year, there will be a lot more competition for this spot. Especially if Clan Building ends as I suspect it will.

Best Ongoing Subplot: Thailog's machinations. You know when he strikes next, it's going to be big.

Best Mystery: Who is Number One? I've been speculating about this, and suspects have ranged from it being an empty spot reserved for King Arthur to Yoko Ono (that's CrzyDemona's theory ;)) to Jesus.

Best Twist: Thailog is an Illuminati member. To hear those gasps at the end of this year's Radio Play... priceless.

Best Cliffhanger: Thailog stabs Goliath.

Best Narrative Innovation: Shari's narration. I'm withholding judgement on the non-linear storytelling till #9, so we can see if it worked in the end, or not. Time will tell.
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Wed, Dec 26, 2007 7:55:33 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Phoenician: Someone else can kidnap him. I don't like kids.

Ed: To be honest, one of my favorites among this batch of comics was the inking and shading on Bad Guys #1.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I believe in love, but how can men who've never seen life be enlightened? Only if he's cured, will his spirit future level ever lighten. And Tommy doesn't know what day it is..." -The Who ("Christmas")
posted @ Wed, Dec 26, 2007 7:43:46 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

For the Aqua Teen fans, I nominate Amp's line in #8.

Amp: "I wanna be called Spaghetti."
Octavio Valentine
posted @ Wed, Dec 26, 2007 7:24:46 pm EST from 70.15.84.29

I nominate

Angela: You Bastard
Vicky82 - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]
posted @ Wed, Dec 26, 2007 6:57:12 pm EST from 195.93.21.4

"Wow, I haven't had a good maniacal laugh in weeks."
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Wed, Dec 26, 2007 6:46:10 pm EST from 209.162.56.40

I like Thailog's line about not having a good laugh in a while.
Octavio Valentine
posted @ Wed, Dec 26, 2007 6:44:08 pm EST from 70.15.84.29

We could make nominations for Best One-Liner.

I nominate: "Have no fear! Super-goyle is here!"
"We'll have no more inserting!"
"I don't suppose you'd like to skip this adventure...? See if Avalon needs us in Hawaii...?"
"Thailog smart."

For future fill-in artists, I'd rather have Nir Paniry, especially if it is an issue featuring the Mutates. I would like to see Paniry with Bevard's or Lostimolo's colors.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Wed, Dec 26, 2007 6:40:55 pm EST from 209.162.56.40

Matt: I considered both actually, as well as a 'best supporting character' category. The problem is, you'd have had a huge list of options to ask the question without bias. (And it would have taken a long time to compile). To do questions like this, we'd probably need some kind of preliminary round. Something to work on for next year though.

Purplegoldfish: Interesting you say that about #7 and #4. I feel the opposite in many ways: #7 seems to be more strongly held together, while #4 visited a lot of different narrative strands; things that happened on the same night, but which didn't necessarily seem to be converging into the same storyline.
Ed Reynolds
posted @ Wed, Dec 26, 2007 4:07:42 pm EST from 213.187.39.204

I hope everyone had a Merry little Christmas yesterday!
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]
It's silly. It's a silly movie. There just isn't much there. Once you take it all apart, there's not much story, is there?- George Lucas on Spider-Man 3
posted @ Wed, Dec 26, 2007 4:05:36 pm EST from 69.54.209.135

Yay, poll! I'll share my answers cuz I'm bored :D

Best Story: This was hard. #7 was indeed awesome, but it didn't feel like a full story to me since it was all over the place. I chose "Masque" because it's got a lot of good story elements- the akward double date, the Xanatos Illuminati mystery, action in the labyrinth, and that crazy cliffhanger.

Best Art: Going with "Bash" on this one because it's nearly flawless, but Hedgecock is really improving and Purcell's work on #6 was great too.

Best Writer: Greg Weisman, duh!

Best Artist: Karine Charlebois, because her art matches the look and feel of the series the most.

Best Color: Robby Bevard. Though Steph's colors are awesome too, I thought Bevard's use of color in various settings and moods was superb.

Best Cover: I went with #3, Invitation Only. I'm partial to group shots.

Best Title: "Masque"-It has that whole metaphorical double meaning thing to it-especially in conjuntion to Hudson's "We all wear masks" line.

Lead Character: Elisa Maza really stood out in the cast for me as the lead protaganist. Her relationship with Goliath is one of the main subplots of the series, but Elisa is the one calling the shots.

Antagonist: Thailog stands out as the most imminent threat. I'm curious as to what his next move will be, and what he's planning to do with the clan's DNA.

New character: Shari-she's such an intrigueing mystery. Whose side is she really on? I love the Goliath/Elisa, Thailog/Shari parallel.

Subplot: I've always been a huge Goliath/Elisa fan, so their relationship takes center stage for me. It's also the most satisfying subplot we have so far. We started with them breaking up, and now they're officially a couple. Nice emotional roller coaster.

Mystery: What's happening in some of those threads for #7-#9. The suspense is killing me!

best twist: Brentwood joining Thailog-I definitely didn't see this coming. What Greg said about Brentwood and "Future Tense" is scary.

Best cliffhanger: Thailog stabs Goliath-though I knew goliath would survive, this was pretty intense, and something we never could have seen happening on the tv show.

Narrative: the non-linear story telling is an awesome and creative way to make use of the new comic medium and keep us on our toes.
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Wed, Dec 26, 2007 3:47:49 pm EST from 69.183.162.111

According to Diamond, no Gargoyles related material to be released on 01/02/08. Hopefully we'll have the TPB the second week of Jan and then BG#2 the third or fourth week of Jan.
Octavio Valentine
posted @ Wed, Dec 26, 2007 3:41:38 pm EST from 159.240.11.254

Kinda wishing there were a "Best Line" and "Best Moment" categories.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Wed, Dec 26, 2007 3:29:10 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

My votes and thoughts.

Best Story
I loved "Invitation Only" but "Bash" had more pay-off. Ultimately it's "The Rock" though. That issue is bananas.

Best Art
I thought all the recent issues have been really good and I had a tough time choosing between them. I think "The Rock" was more challenging ultimately because of the scrolls, the new characters, the wealth of locations and action, and I think it's the most impressive accomplishment. "Reunion", "Strangers" and "Bash" all looked splendid too though.

Best Writer
Greg's done a really impressive job this year. I mean, I expected he would, but you never know. I was particularly impressed when I came to tally up the 'mysteries'. You wouldn't think so much stuff would be left to our speculation over six issues, but there was a lot. And looking back I realised things that I don't recall being picked up on before -- Talon refers to Maggie's 'condition' in #4 but we assume it's from the attack (or I did). Incidentally, in most of the categories I've set it so you have to vote, but I think not this one. So while you can't vote for anyone else you can, in theory, abstain if you want to protest.

Best Artist
Karine's been amazing in both her issues. I'm also loving what David Hedgecock is up to, and I think every issue he's getting better. If there's ever need for another fill-in, I hope Gordon Purcell's name is considered though. "Reunion" looked great.

Best Color Artist
Really hard, but Stephanie's been consistently great.

Best Cover
I still love #3. #6 was also really good. #5 I actually don't like that much. It reflects the contents most accurately but doesn't really grab me except insofar as it's unusually gory. BAD GUYS #1 is fun. #4 and #7 were a bit dull.

Best Title
When I first read some of these I was really surprised. "Bash"? "The Rock"? I actually love "The Rock", and also "Invitation Only" but "Masque" is my favourite.

Best Lead Character
Obviously this is for 2007's stories. And while Goliath and Elisa have been around, the characters who have grabbed me most have been Lexington with his really interesting response to Brentwood, Xanatos with his ongoing storyline, and Hudson with his storyline with Robbins. I went for Lex in the end, not least because...

Best Antagonist
Xanatos! Love him. But it was tough, because the Illuminati are also amazing. I kind of expect Thailog to win but I still don't really rate him. Great character outright, but relative to others around, he seems like a relatively cut and dry sort of villain. I don't feel yet we've really pulled apart the nuances of his character.

Best New Character
Only Hemings and Shari have had any real face time to handle, and Shari comes off best. Though Hemings had more impact in a shorter time, I believe.

Best Ongoing Subplot
I tried to limit these to ones that had lasted all year, not just within one arc. And it's the clones who I'm loving right now. Particularly can't wait to see Brentwood again. Xanatos's assignment is a hoot too, and I've loved how well paced it's been. Every issue it's been quietly advanced.

Best Mystery
Seems like a long time ago now, but the number system caused such a stir when it first came out and it's still my favourite. The question of who Number 1 is also intrigues. Frankly, all these mysteries are gold and have really played to the S8 audience. In terms of impact, each comic punches way above its weight.

Best Twist
So, so glad Robbins returned. But Brentwood joining Thailog was my character moment. Before this, I could take or leave the clones -- they didn't really have characters per se. But this was such a kick in the guts and as well as the impact on Brentwood, I'm looking forward to seeing how Hollywood, Burbank and Malibu (who I guess are now "The Trio" of the clone clan) survive.

Best Cliffhanger
Hemings' "Two" was so great. We didn't yet quite know what was up with that, but it just had to be impressive. The stab was unfortunately spoilt. I think #7 has the coolest ending, but it's more a case of the story moving at a fast pace than the end in and of itself.

Best Narrative Innovation
Shari's been a great addition, and the song was entertaining, but the non-linear set-up of #7 was astonishing and really shook things up.
Ed Reynolds
posted @ Wed, Dec 26, 2007 2:31:51 pm EST from 213.187.39.204

According to the Gargwiki, Dustin Evans was the color artist of 4, as well as 3 and 6.
Octavio Valentine
posted @ Wed, Dec 26, 2007 2:17:28 pm EST from 159.240.11.254

Good poll. I had a lot of difficulty choosing cliffhangers, twists, and cover art. And although I voted for the art in #5, I think #7 very good as well. David Hedgecock got off to a sub-standard start but he did a great job on #7. I think future issues are going to look fine.

Who was colorist on #4? If it wasn't Dustin Evans, then they didn't get into the poll.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Wed, Dec 26, 2007 1:55:02 pm EST from 209.162.56.40

Cheers, Greg. And I really thought I'd managed one without a screw-up this time! ;)
Ed Reynolds
posted @ Wed, Dec 26, 2007 1:48:25 pm EST from 213.187.39.204

Ed> Great poll and great idea. I hope you do this each year. Can't wait to see the final results!
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Wed, Dec 26, 2007 1:05:48 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

<<Thankfully, with each generation, we become more sane. My kids just might be normal.>>

Sanity is good (and your grandfather sounds crazy) but I agree with Elisa about normalcy.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Wed, Dec 26, 2007 1:01:27 pm EST from 209.162.56.40

Aside from the little error Greg mentioned, overall that is a great poll, Ed. I cast my votes.
Rebel
posted @ Wed, Dec 26, 2007 12:47:35 pm EST from 76.165.35.137

Ed> You may want to edit your poll, Goliath is not an Illuminati member.
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Wed, Dec 26, 2007 12:17:41 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

With awards season coming up in Hollywood (or maybe not with the writers' strike on, I don't know), I thought it would be fun to do a rundown of 2007.

So please vote in THE GARGY AWARDS 2007:
http://www.misterpoll.com/polls/316961

(Or click on my name).
Ed Reynolds
posted @ Wed, Dec 26, 2007 12:03:57 pm EST from 213.187.39.204

I am very partial to Santa Claus referring to a title, than a unique person.

I think there were movies which used this idea.
Michael Ejercito - [mejercit at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Dec 26, 2007 11:52:05 am EST from 75.142.107.43

Harvester: Don't worry, there's still the Baby New Year to kidnap! ;P

(Though I wouldn't really want to you to hunt him down in the Archipelago of New Years' Past . . . fighting Rudolph nonetheless).
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Wed, Dec 26, 2007 11:45:46 am EST from 70.162.221.121

In the clearing stands a boxer, and a fighter by his trade
And he carries the reminders of every glove that laid him down or cut him
til he cried out in his anger and his shame
I am leaving, I am leaving, but the fighter still remains
Octavio Valentine
posted @ Wed, Dec 26, 2007 10:51:56 am EST from 159.240.11.254

HARVESTER - I'm sorry to break this to you, but your scheme has failed. Boxing Day isn't about that kind of boxing. You stole the wrong thing. Not to mention that I think a lot of angry boxers will be coming after you, wanting their gloves back....
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Wed, Dec 26, 2007 7:52:00 am EST from 4.244.212.215

*comes in carry a burlap sack full of Boxing Gloves*

I've done it! I've stolen a holiday! Mwa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaah!

Speaking of Christmas movies, for some reason, HBO was showing Lethal Weapon 4 yesterday. Really, if you're going to show any Lethal Weapon movie on Christmas Day, it should be the first one.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I believe in love, but how can men who've never seen life be enlightened? Only if he's cured, will his spirit future level ever lighten. And Tommy doesn't know what day it is..." -The Who ("Christmas")
posted @ Wed, Dec 26, 2007 7:23:38 am EST from 71.62.198.251

Hi All, A Semi Gargs related comment. For fans of Halcyon Renard - Voice Actor Robert Culp's 60's TV Series with Bill Cosby "I Spy" is being released in season sets in April. Some of the episodes have leaked out before, but not in full season sets, and these each of the 3 season is going to be under $20 bucks
Here are the details so far:
http://www.tvshowsondvd.com/news/Spy-Remastered-Season-Sets/8684

BTW: for those who celebrate it...Happy Boxing Day. Try not to get yourselves too boxed ^_~
Wingless
posted @ Wed, Dec 26, 2007 6:06:43 am EST from 99.245.254.123

Greg B.> "I am sure Greg is good enough a writer to be able to tell a story about Dracula without it being a direct lift from "Buffy". Greg is a Huge Whedon fan, but please give him a little credit."

I didn't mean anything by it. Relax.

I agree that Greg is a talented writer, and more then enough so to not be completely copying from Whedon, but that doesn't mean he can't do a slight homage.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Wed, Dec 26, 2007 1:41:03 am EST from 76.222.101.161

::Comes in pouring a bottle of cognac, and leaves the bottle out for anyone else who wants some::

Continuing my Christmas Tradition, every year, like clockwork it's "Die Hard", and every year I hope it will be a little different and Hans Gruber will get away with the $600 million in negotiable bearer bonds from the Nakatomi Tower. But nope, that Irish flatfoot, John McClane wins again.

Ed> <<Christmas is an effective and dramatic backdrop, a time of heightened sentiment and emotions, of worry and people coming together.>>

Like a man flying to Los Angeles to visit his estranged wife, only to have terrorists take over the building? Yeah, there's a reason I watch this movie every Christmas.

Purplegoldfish> Yeah, my grandfather is quite the character, stories about him in the family are legendary. Thankfully, with each generation, we become more sane. My kids just might be normal.

<<My Buffy comment was more cemented in the fact that Greg is obviously a Buffy TvS fan. >>

I am sure Greg is good enough a writer to be able to tell a story about Dracula without it being a direct lift from "Buffy". Greg is a Huge Whedon fan, but please give him a little credit.

DPH> <<*raises a glass of unknown liquid*>> Wolverine's mutant senses don't lie, that ain't lemonade you're drinking. That was quite an... interesting post, by the way. Yeah, interesting.
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Wed, Dec 26, 2007 12:02:43 am EST from 67.87.175.245

Late Merry Christmas to everyone. We got up early to open presents, after which I fell asleep.

As for Dracula in Gargoyles, I wouldn't dismiss the possibility for him in Timedancer as it would give Brooklyn a reoccuring antagonist. Still, I think Greg was hinting to us that he would walk the castle walls going by that dialogue in Awakening Part 3.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Tue, Dec 25, 2007 10:46:28 pm EST from 71.115.192.199

****Blaise stumbles into the Room. His body is now the general shape of a planet (with what appear to be his own moons orbiting him).**** Too much food...too little time.

Just writing to wish everyone a Merry Christmas. Even if you don't celebrate it, I'm still wishing you a happy day!

Now I'm off to digest. Please pardon me. ****Blaise somehow manages to squeeze out the window, and floats up into outer space.****
Blaise
posted @ Tue, Dec 25, 2007 9:13:04 pm EST from 71.237.221.104

One scene that will never (I assume) take place in the hypothetical Santa Claus story in "Gargoyles": Santa's reindeer mysteriously disappear, and soon afterwards, Wolf is seen seated on a pile of bones, picking his teeth with an antler.

For Christmas, I got a set of lectures on Shakespeare's plays on CD. The plays focused on include "Twelfth Night", "The Taming of the Shrew", "The Merchant of Venice", "Measure for Measure", "Richard III", "Richard II", "Henry IV", "Henry V", "Romeo and Juliet", "Troilus and Cressida", "Julius Caesar", "Hamlet", "Othello", "King Lear", and "Macbeth". I haven't listened to them yet, but I will in the upcoming weeks. (At least a thing like that is relevant to "Gargoyles".)
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Tue, Dec 25, 2007 7:35:20 pm EST from 4.244.208.16

GXB - I appreciate you saying Feliz Navidad.

Of course, for the uneducated, the the Catholic Church co-opted Winter Solstice festivals and turned them into Christmas festivals. So if we really want to get to the root of the when, we have to go to pagan ways.

Happy Holidays to everybody, especially to those who annoy me from time to time. For those of you whom I haven't had a big disagreement with, it's just a matter of time before one of two things happens.

*raises a glass of unknown liquid* Here's to absent friends/acquitances/enemies that we enjoy being around.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Tue, Dec 25, 2007 6:34:18 pm EST from 98.20.237.134

Hope everyone is having a good Christmas today. Now I get to go stuff myself at a buffet and gain 20 pounds and prepare to purchase the Season 1 DVD from Amazon.

I can't wait to get started on creating a music video for Awakening...
The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood (>X_x)> So tired...
posted @ Tue, Dec 25, 2007 4:58:03 pm EST from 72.199.225.9

MERRY CHRISTMAS, happy holidays, happy hanukkah, Happy new year, or whatever you celebrate or don't:

GREG W. (Thank you for all your hard work to get this book out for us. Thank you!), and to all the hard working staff at the comic;

Gorebash for this site; Amanda Wells, Greg. B, Patrick, Wingless, Kris, Blaise, Todd Jensen, Vash, DPH, Tinitinytoni, purplegoldfish, Matt, The One Known As Mochi, Vaevictis Asmadi, Starlioness, Harvester of Eyes, Vinie, DeamonSkrye, Arkansas Mezzo, King Cobra, Phil, Asatira, Spen, Phoenician, Antiyonder, Vicky82, Jurgan, Stephen J. Sabotka Jr., AND ANYONE I MISSED!!!

We live Again! ...In comic form.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Tue, Dec 25, 2007 4:30:58 pm EST from 161.184.65.92

Christmas is an effective and dramatic backdrop, a time of heightened sentiment and emotions, of worry and people coming together. And the idea of it is pretty much in line with many of the ideas underpinning 'Gargoyles' -- family and community and optimism. Personally, I'd like to learn more about Christmas 1994 with the gargoyles seeing a very different seasonal celebration from their 10th century experience.

As for Santa Claus -- of course he's got to have a place in the universe. 'Gargoyles' is a tapestry, and Santa Claus is one of the few truly enduring globally-recognised legendary icons. Most western cultures have their own depiction of him, and many their own attendant mythologies. He's a strange fusion of Christian and pagan traditions. Really, the possibilities are almost boundless. I can't wait to see what Greg does with him.

Speculation: I'd have thought the Timedancer mini-series would be intended to tie into the regular comic. By this logic, Brooklyn would vanish around #16-19.
Ed Reynolds
posted @ Tue, Dec 25, 2007 4:20:24 pm EST from 213.187.39.204

Merry Christmas! (to those who celebrate it.)

We now have Withhelds on Nov 16 and on Dec 31, both after the Stone is returned to Scotland. I do think that #10-12 are quite possibly Timedancer, but that should take place in 1997. Possibly #10 will include New Year's Eve as well as New Year's Day, but New Year's Eve might be in #9 or #8 instead.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Tue, Dec 25, 2007 4:05:25 pm EST from 209.162.56.40

Greg: hahaha that's hilarious. I can relate-my grandfather is practically borderline psychotic. He goes around telling people he's a cop, when he's not and never has been. He went to a Chinese restaurant with my parents once and tried to order the food in Chinese...they never got their food.

Dracula: That would be okay then if he's based on the historical Dracula. I wonder how GregW. would incorporate that into Gargoyles.
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Tue, Dec 25, 2007 2:27:49 pm EST from 69.183.162.111

Greg B.> " Just FYI, Buffy the Vampire Slayer did not invent Dracula."

Yes, I am fully aware of that.

My Buffy comment was more cemented in the fact that Greg is obviously a Buffy TvS fan.

Not to mention the 'Angel' spinoff.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Tue, Dec 25, 2007 2:15:49 pm EST from 76.222.101.161

Oh, and to answer your question on how crazy my family get togethers are.

My grandfather made a rabbi cry during a Bar mitzvah once. The temple was non-orthodox, and there they replaced He and Him with just "God" since they believe God is genderless. Well, someone in the audience, a family friend, had an issue with that, since he was a lot more orthodox and said so. The Rabbi then asked him to leave. My grandfather then stood up, and he's not a religious man at all, just a contentious jerk who loves to argue, and started screaming at the rabbi, until the rabbi broke down in tears. My grandfather is no longer invited to most family get togethers.

.... and suddenly, I think everyone in here is saying "that explains a lot." ;)
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Tue, Dec 25, 2007 1:48:51 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

PGF> If Greg gets to Dracula, I suspect he'll go for a more historical, Vlad the Impaler take on the character as opposed to the stereotypical, cliched Bela Lugosi take. And hey, wit the comic and looser S&P, Greg can have a very scary Vlad if he wants it.

KingCobra> Just FYI, Buffy the Vampire Slayer did not invent Dracula.
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Tue, Dec 25, 2007 1:44:12 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

So I guess Dracula would most likely show up during Timedancer?
Rebel
posted @ Tue, Dec 25, 2007 1:43:47 pm EST from 76.165.35.137

How about Santa Claus Vs Dracula? now that's a Christmas special!
Algernon
The pen is mightier than the sword if the sword is very short, and the pen is very sharp.- Terry Pratchett
posted @ Tue, Dec 25, 2007 1:40:06 pm EST from 83.71.96.222

KingCobra: From the ASK GREG archives.

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?sid=927879&qid=4796

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?sid=927879&qid=4828

In searching for these, I was surprised to learn that Greg hated both the Indiana Jones sequels. I can't blame him for hating Temple of Doom, but I don't know too many people who didn't like Last Crusade.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I believe in love, but how can men who've never seen life be enlightened? Only if he's cured, will his spirit future level ever lighten. And Tommy doesn't know what day it is..." -The Who ("Christmas")
posted @ Tue, Dec 25, 2007 1:33:20 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

Greg B.> "Well, we know since Greg has said in he past tha he has full intent to eventually use Dracula."

Interesting. He must've said it at one of the many Gatherings I didn't attend, or something.

Is this in the AG archives?
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Tue, Dec 25, 2007 1:29:55 pm EST from 76.222.101.161

Greg: Pizza bagel, lol that's cute
So, are your family get-togethers as obnoxious as mine? ;)

Dracula: meh, I could do without it, though I would prefer him over Santa Claus as well. He's been mentioned at least twice in the series ("Don't tell me, this is where Dracula shows up", and "Who lives here, Dracula's daughter?") So there's a good chance he'll show up I suppose.
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Tue, Dec 25, 2007 1:26:07 pm EST from 69.183.162.111

King Cobra> Well, we know since Greg has said in he past tha he has full intent to eventually use Dracula.
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Tue, Dec 25, 2007 1:23:55 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Greg B> Unfortunately, I don't see Greg going in Dracula direction.

Unless the comic book were to have a Buffy moment/homage/whatever.

But who knows, aside from Mr. Weisman himself?
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Tue, Dec 25, 2007 1:20:00 pm EST from 76.222.101.161

Purplegoldfish> I'm half Jewish, so I guess I could count. Bit of a mutt.

My dad was a Russian Jew from Brooklyn, my mother born in Brazil with a Dutch mom and a Sicilian Dad.

So, yeah, part Sicilian part Jewish... guess that makes me a pizza bagel ;)

The Santa Claus Debate> Yeah, I agree, it's done to death, and while I trust Greg, it's still not a story I have much interest in. Dracula has been done to death also, but I'd much rather see him.
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Tue, Dec 25, 2007 1:04:07 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Rebel: I agree, I'm sure Greg would come up with something totally unlame, but is it that important to the series? I'm glad that Gargoyles is one of the properties that never feature Santa claus or a representation of him-it's done to death really. (And you kind of end up hating Santa Claus, when he brings all your friends and classmates gifts but not you.)

Happy Holidays/Merry Christmas: That whole debate is so stupid, who cares? People can say it however they want-it's the thought behind that words that count. I personally don't like saying "Merry Christmas" to people I don't know because I don't celebrate it and not everybody does.-but I don't get bent out of shape when they do.

So where my Jewish peeps at? ;P- Movies and chinese food, it's my Christmas traditon
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Tue, Dec 25, 2007 1:01:02 pm EST from 69.183.162.111

Greg B: Feliz Navidad? Dude, you might get put on notice for that. It's anti-American. ( ;
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I believe in love, but how can men who've never seen life be enlightened? Only if he's cured, will his spirit future level ever lighten. And Tommy doesn't know what day it is..." -The Who ("Christmas")
posted @ Tue, Dec 25, 2007 12:19:13 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

MATT> I was thinking the same thing. Phoenix Gate appears as a cliffhanger.

SIREN> Sorry, I could not resist, you inspired this Jon Stewart Christmas quote:

"Mr. O'Reilly also objects, obviously, to the use of the phrase "Happy Holidays" as anti-Christian, although, for some people, there is also a -- a celebration of the New Year. So Christmas and the New Year are actually two holidays, so there is a plural, which in the English language necessitates the use of the letter "S." Now, I suppose you could say "Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year" but you probably have (expletive) to do. You shorten it to "Happy Holidays."

Sorry, could not resist.

On that note, to everyone here, Feliz Navidad.
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Tue, Dec 25, 2007 12:07:38 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Yeah, I think the withheld date for 12-31-96 is gonna have something to do with the Timedance. New Years is a cool time to return, maybe he disappears while counting down and comes back on the strock of a new year. Very symbolic.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Tue, Dec 25, 2007 11:03:01 am EST from 24.207.163.239

Maybe the Gargoyles could team up with Ernest to save Christmas from the Christmas Hobgoblins...

And now a little Christmas cheer for admirers of Francis Ford Coppola:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wk2G8Gsi4G0

Here's another:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEumZuJXqYM&feature=related
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I believe in love, but how can men who've never seen life be enlightened? Only if he's cured, will his spirit future level ever lighten. And Tommy doesn't know what day it is..." -The Who ("Christmas")
posted @ Tue, Dec 25, 2007 10:54:48 am EST from 71.62.198.251

Merry Materielism Day!

No, I suppose that is mean. For those of you celebrating Christmas, have a good one!
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Tue, Dec 25, 2007 10:41:51 am EST from 24.207.163.239

Merry Christmas and for those anal retentive politically correct yuppies, Happy Holidays! :D
Siren
Don't knock on Death's door. Ring his doorbell and run, he hates that.
posted @ Tue, Dec 25, 2007 10:38:10 am EST from 68.202.76.113

This post has only one purpose; to wish everyone here a merry christmas. May everyone spend this wonderful day with friends and family.
Jack-Pumpkinhead - [jtjgundam at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Tue, Dec 25, 2007 8:30:57 am EST from 192.195.66.47

Merry Christmas, everyone!

I wonder what the withheld event is for December 31, 1996. Maybe Brooklyn's encounter with the Phoenix Gate? Or if not that, something leading up to it.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Tue, Dec 25, 2007 7:30:54 am EST from 4.244.208.179

I guess I'm a little leery of a Gargoyles Christmas issue. Maybe it's just me, but I kinda hope Greg sticks to making issues that move the overall comic's plot forward. I can't see a Christmas issue being anything but a "filler"...a fun little story that, while enjoyable, means we'd have to wait another month or two for the comic to get serious again. But, maybe I'm just being too negative.
Rebel
posted @ Tue, Dec 25, 2007 7:28:41 am EST from 76.165.35.137

***Potential Spoilers for Issues #7-8**
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_of_Scone , "In the process of removing it from the Abbey, they broke it into two pieces. After hiding the greater part of the stone in Kent for a few weeks, they risked the road blocks on the border and returned to Scotland with this piece, which they had hidden in the back of a borrowed car, along with a new accomplice Johnny Josselyn. The smaller piece was similarly brought north a little while later. This journey involved a break in Leeds, where a group of sympathetic students and graduates took the fragment to Ilkley Moor for an overnight stay, accompanied by renditions of "On Ilkley Moor baht 'tat". The Stone was then passed to a senior Glasgow politician who arranged for it to be professionally repaired by Glasgow stonemason Robert Gray. A major search for the stone had been ordered by the British Government, but this proved unsuccessful. Perhaps assuming that the Church would not return it to England, the stone's custodians left it on the altar of Arbroath Abbey, on 11 April 1951, in the safekeeping of the Church of Scotland."

I'm wondering how much of the historical truth managed to play out in the gargoyle universe. Either way, it looks like more info on the timeline.
**End potential spoilers**

I noticed that Greg finished filling in the timeline through the end of the year. It's good to see that he's going to spend time with his family.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Tue, Dec 25, 2007 6:11:33 am EST from 98.20.237.134

Havester: I knew one of us was going to play the Grinch ;)

I'm off to bed -- NORAD has Santa passing Tucson, but not Phoenix (Argh), so I still got some time!

Merry Christmas everyone!
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Tue, Dec 25, 2007 2:47:08 am EST from 70.162.221.121

Maybe if the Gargoyles team up with KISS to save Christmas, that would be awesome...or Spider-man.
Octavio Valentine
posted @ Tue, Dec 25, 2007 1:47:50 am EST from 70.15.84.29

Rebel >> Gargoyles..."saving" Christmas...? I would cry...for days on end...if that ever happened...

I'd rather have a Connie Chung Christmas than see the gargoyles do that...
The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood (>X_x)> So tired...
posted @ Tue, Dec 25, 2007 1:34:11 am EST from 72.199.225.9

Purplegoldfish> True there are many Christmas specials, but I think Greg would be able to do a decent one. Heck, Future Tense was an example of taking a cliched concept (Shock value events which were nothing more than a nightmare) and making it a fasinating episode (with the events reoccuring in different fashions), and as we saw in #4 and 5, he's still following up on the aspects of the "dream".
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Tue, Dec 25, 2007 1:10:32 am EST from 71.115.192.199

*stuffs several stockings into a burlap sack, then drags the sack to the fridge and starts stuffing all the food into it. Suddenly, he realizes the lights are on and the entire CR can see him.*

Oh, don't everyone look so surprised. ( ;

Merry Christmas, everybody!

*drops the sack in the center of the floor and walks out muttering, "I knew I should have gone after Kwanzaa instead"*
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I believe in love, but how can men who've never seen life be enlightened? Only if he's cured, will his spirit future level ever lighten. And Tommy doesn't know what day it is..." -The Who ("Christmas")
posted @ Tue, Dec 25, 2007 1:04:58 am EST from 71.62.198.251

To be repetitive, Merry Christmas everyone *hugs & handshakes all round*

On the subject of hugs, Am I the only one that would really like to know what a wing wrap embrace feels like? ^_~
Wingless
posted @ Tue, Dec 25, 2007 12:39:59 am EST from 99.245.254.123

Merry Christmas!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"You can't fool me, there ain't no sanity clause." - Chico Marx
posted @ Tue, Dec 25, 2007 12:32:26 am EST from 99.161.91.215

Merry Christmas everyone. :)
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Tue, Dec 25, 2007 12:31:22 am EST from 76.222.101.161

Merry Christmas, everyone!
Spen
posted @ Tue, Dec 25, 2007 12:22:55 am EST from 66.43.205.110

It's been a busy night. Our kids are asleep, I've just carried an unconscionable number of gifts down to the tree, and now I'm eating Santa's milk and cookies as I check in. I'm sure we'll be awakened early, so...
"Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night!"
Phil - [p1anderson at go dot com]
posted @ Mon, Dec 24, 2007 11:24:28 pm EST from 69.221.249.68

Calling it a night. Merry Christmas guys!
Asatira
posted @ Mon, Dec 24, 2007 11:21:48 pm EST from 97.82.58.208

Hmm, I kind of hope that Greg stays away from Santa altogether. There's way too many "christmas specials" anyway.

Merry Christmas guys :)
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Mon, Dec 24, 2007 8:46:39 pm EST from 69.183.162.111

Todd> "Let's just hope the story wouldn't have been about Bronx having to fill in for one of the reindeer. (Can you imagine someone trying to get Bronx to wear fake antlers?)"

*shudders* I hate those kinds of Christmas stories. They're not the best, and everyone has done one. I'm sure Greg could present something much better thought out.

According NORAD, he's off the coast of Dartmouth, Nova Scotia. Wow, pretty close to where I live, just one time zone off.
Asatira
posted @ Mon, Dec 24, 2007 8:11:22 pm EST from 97.82.58.208

Todd/Matt: Look under 26 March.
Ed Reynolds
posted @ Mon, Dec 24, 2007 8:00:35 pm EST from 213.187.39.204

Well, I just done baking two dozen cookies, and around five dozen brownies (a dozen of which are cookie/brownie hybrids). (Places the cyber-versions on the CR Cookie Table) . . . .

Santa: I got him tracked on Google Earth, and right now he's off the coast of Africa. =P

Contest: Sweet! Third Place!! I look forward to next year's Ed.

Location of Contest: I imagine it was just a few weeks before March 12th, before Issue #3's release (since that comic WAS the first comic of 2007 -- not to mention the first of NEW Canon!)
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Mon, Dec 24, 2007 7:30:53 pm EST from 70.162.221.121

MATT - Sorry, I never did.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Mon, Dec 24, 2007 7:23:35 pm EST from 4.244.210.120

Ed> Thanks for posting the results. What week in the archives did you post the contest, I can't find it. Todd, did you find it?
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Mon, Dec 24, 2007 7:18:00 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Harvester of Eyes> Last I Checked, he's somewhere over Iceland.

http://www.noradsanta.org/en/home.htm

And since it's now technically Christmas here in Ireland, I'd like to wish everybody here a good one.
Algernon
The pen is mightier than the sword if the sword is very short, and the pen is very sharp.- Terry Pratchett
posted @ Mon, Dec 24, 2007 7:17:49 pm EST from 83.71.96.222

Todd: Let's also hope the gargoyles don't have to somehow "save Christmas". So lame.
Rebel - [rebel2004nay at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Dec 24, 2007 7:17:05 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

Well it's Christmas here now in the UK so Happy Christmas everyone.
Vicky82 - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]
posted @ Mon, Dec 24, 2007 7:07:43 pm EST from 195.93.21.4

Let's just hope the story wouldn't have been about Bronx having to fill in for one of the reindeer. (Can you imagine someone trying to get Bronx to wear fake antlers?)
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Mon, Dec 24, 2007 6:35:49 pm EST from 4.244.210.120

Hmm, Die Hard is a Christmas tradition I could sink my teeth into. Like watching Boondock Saints every Saint Patrick's Day.

Vaevictis: The non-believers shall be cast into the jingle-jail!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nabhB73XaVo
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
Zim: "Put him in the actually strong Jingle Jail!" Dib: "Why didn't you just put me in the strong one to begin with?"
posted @ Mon, Dec 24, 2007 6:33:50 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

I don't want a sappy Santa either, though I don't expect sappiness from Greg W.

Harvester >> Lol. Santa as a Space-Spawn god?

Todd >> Only a total King Arthur nut would have thought of that. But it is a good one.

Algernon >> Maybe we need a Krampus for the Gargverse. Though perhaps without the part about eternal damnation.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Mon, Dec 24, 2007 6:22:59 pm EST from 209.162.56.40

Octavio> You too, huh. For me, every year, like clockwork. Die Hard. I always root for Hans Gruber.

Heh, wanna see Severus Snape do his snowflake impression to Dean Martin?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SE4lvFc1Qo
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Mon, Dec 24, 2007 6:10:23 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

During the holiday season, celebrate Christmas the right way, and watch the best Christmas movie ever made -- Die Hard.
Octavio Valentine
posted @ Mon, Dec 24, 2007 5:51:11 pm EST from 70.15.84.29

I thought Santa Claus was in space, gathering his power. And someday, he will return to Earth, forcing all humans to live in protective domes.

Another classic cartoon is the Invader Zim episode "The Most Horrible Christmas Ever."

"Of course I'm Santa! I have robot elves!"

Algernon: Want horror? Behold!

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0393685/
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Bow down! Bow down! Before the power of Santa, or be crushed! Be crushed! By... his jolly boots of DOOM!" -Invader Zim
posted @ Mon, Dec 24, 2007 5:29:32 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

I once imagined the Green Knight from "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight" (who's one of the eight Arthurian survivors, and therefore canon-in-training) as Santa. He's most active around Christmas, has a jovial disposition, and if he can shape-shift from a hospitable medieval country squire to a green giant, he can also shape-shift into a white-bearded man in red clothing. (Of course, his fondness for beheading games would seem an unsettling trait for Santa - but it's no worse than Joss Whedon's take which Bishansky mentioned.)
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Mon, Dec 24, 2007 5:20:48 pm EST from 4.244.210.120

Greg B> "Been around since, like, the 1500s. But he wasn't always called Santa. But with, you know, Christmas night, flying reindeer, coming down the chimney - all true. Well, he doesn't traditionally bring presents so much as, you know, disembowel children. But otherwise…" -Anya

Actually that sounds a lot like the Krampus, a hideous demon/goblin thingy that follows St. Nick on his yearly journeys, whipping and punishing all the naughty children or in some cases draging them off to hell, at least according to some eastern European folklore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Companions_of_Saint_Nicholas

There's a horror movie waiting to be made there.
Algernon
The pen is mightier than the sword if the sword is very short, and the pen is very sharp.- Terry Pratchett
posted @ Mon, Dec 24, 2007 5:10:48 pm EST from 83.71.96.222

Greg B: Fry: Please let us live. We'll put out milk and cookies for you.
Santa Claus: You *dare* bribe Santa. I'm going to shove coal so far up your stocking you'll be coughing up diamonds.

Santa Claus: You've all been very, very naughty indeed! Except you, Dr. Zoidberg. This is for you!
Dr. Zoidberg: A pogo stick!
Santa Claus: As for the rest of you, I'm going to tear off your skin like wrapping paper and deck the halls with your guts!

Santa Claus: Let's see who's been naughty...and who's been naughty. Mobsters beating up a shopkeeper for protection money! Very naughty. Shopkeepers not paying their protection money - exactly as naughty!

You forgot about the part where he observed the nose picker: "I saw that".

While I do enjoy some of the more sappy specials, I do agree that Gargoyleverse Santa will be a departure more likely. At least we can be sure that Broadway won't take the role of filling in for Santa.
Antiyonder
posted @ Mon, Dec 24, 2007 5:08:22 pm EST from 71.115.218.238

Robot Santa, regular Santa. Same difference.

Here's my Christmas gift to the CR. The greatest Christmas special ever!

Stan comes across the Woodland Critters getting ready for Christmas, but they need the Mountain Lion killed so the savior can be born.

http://www.southparkzone.com/episodes/814/Woodland-Critter-Christmas.html

Best. Christmas. Special. Ever.
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Mon, Dec 24, 2007 3:22:09 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

VA> I agree, I really do hope he doesn't disembowel children. Personally, I'd rather he was human rather than Third Race. Having him as mortal, or was a mortal, just adds something to it I can't pin down, but makes him special. That, and he doesn't have to worry about the Gathering.

Greg B.> I haven't seen that episode in a while, but isn't that Robot Santa Claus? He's a whole other matter.
Asatira
posted @ Mon, Dec 24, 2007 3:06:22 pm EST from 97.82.58.208

Whoops, misread first and last. My bad on both. I also checked my copy of #6, and Shari does indeed get the last line. Not sure why I never spotted it.

Vaevictis> <<Though personally I hope he ~doesn't~ disembowel children...>>

Oh, come on, it'd be great!

Fry: Please let us live. We'll put out milk and cookies for you.
Santa Claus: You *dare* bribe Santa. I'm going to shove coal so far up your stocking you'll be coughing up diamonds.

Santa Claus: You've all been very, very naughty indeed! Except you, Dr. Zoidberg. This is for you!
Dr. Zoidberg: A pogo stick!
Santa Claus: As for the rest of you, I'm going to tear off your skin like wrapping paper and deck the halls with your guts!

Santa Claus: Let's see who's been naughty...and who's been naughty. Mobsters beating up a shopkeeper for protection money! Very naughty. Shopkeepers not paying their protection money - exactly as naughty!
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Mon, Dec 24, 2007 2:41:55 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Here's a question: would he be portrayed as the Christian Santa Claus/ St. Nick, or the pagan Holly King?
chris
~R
posted @ Mon, Dec 24, 2007 1:56:33 pm EST from 66.211.201.24

I won? Cool! :)

By the way, Merry Christmas.

<<There's no reason for Santa to be the same as Saint Nick.>>
If they were different, that would leave room for the real Saint Nick to exist and for Santa to exist as well. Though personally I hope he ~doesn't~ disembowel children...

It would be neat, if he was Third Race, if he had some real elves working for him.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Mon, Dec 24, 2007 1:32:58 pm EST from 209.162.56.40

Thanks for posting that Ed, that was fun. I did pretty well, if I say so myself :P. I don't remember most of my answers heh.

GregB-Brendan was also in #5. He alerted Dr. Sato
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Mon, Dec 24, 2007 1:23:25 pm EST from 69.183.162.111

Brendan's *last* appearance was in #5 though, and Shari has the last words in #6 as part of her narration ("Yes, a story for another night indeed").
Ed Reynolds
posted @ Mon, Dec 24, 2007 1:09:53 pm EST from 213.187.39.204

And Brendan was in #4, and he last character to speak in #6 was Coldsteel, not Shari.
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Mon, Dec 24, 2007 12:52:34 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Thanks, Todd. (Nobody guessed either character so it doesn't affect anything, luckily).
Ed Reynolds
posted @ Mon, Dec 24, 2007 12:51:00 pm EST from 213.187.39.204

* SPOILERS *

Thanks for posting the results, Ed. Just one correction; the first person to speak in #7 is Coldsteel rather than Coyote.

* SPOILERS END *
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Mon, Dec 24, 2007 12:43:53 pm EST from 4.244.213.187

There's no reason for Santa to be the same as Saint Nick. The legend is such a hodgepodge of different traditions. For all we know, he may be identified with Odin in the universe.

Anyway...

GARGOYLES 2007 PREDICTION COMPETITION

NB. Because of the nature of some of the questions, it's possible (likely even) I've miscounted or overlooked something. On the cover question I've added a point for every right name and subtracted one for every wrong name. In some cases, I've used a judgment -- e.g. the radio broadcasts count as the 'first line' and a 'new character'.

A.

1. Which issue in 2007 will be the first to include the word "Jalapeña"? (GARGOYLES #6)

2. Which issue in 2007 will be the first to include a flashback to before 1994? (GARGOYLES #7)

3. Which issue in 2007 will be the LAST to feature Owen? (GARGOYLES #7)

4. Which issue in 2007 will include the first death? (GARGOYLES #7 - Gathelus)

5. Which issue in 2007 will be the first to have a line of Latin? (None)

6. Which issue in 2007 will be the first to include the word "humanity"? (None)

7. Which issue in 2007 will be the first to include a member of the Third Race NOT in a disguised form? (i.e. Owen and Anastasia don't count). (None)

8. Which issue in 2007 will be the first to feature Fang? (GARGOYLES #3 in flashback)

9. Which issue in 2007 will be the LAST to feature EITHER Brendan OR the Jogger? (GARGOYLES #5)

10. Which issue in 2007 will be the first to include the words of the name of one of the spin-offs (i.e. Bad Guys, Dark Ages, The New Olympians, Timedancer, 2198 or Pendragon). (NONE - the closest we get is 'bad guy' in BAD GUYS #1)

B.

1. Will there be an issue with a double page spread? (NO)

2. Will there be an issue of GARGOYLES in which Hudson does not appear? (YES)

3. Name the characters who will share the LAST kiss this year. (Goliath & Elisa)

4. Name the first continent besides North America we will see this year. (ASIA)

5. Will there be an issue of GARGOYLES in which Lexington does not appear? (NO)

6. Will Travis Marshall speak this year? (NO)

7. How many issues will feature Sevarius this year? (TWO - #3 in flashback and #5)

8. Will a new gargoyle character be introduced this year? (YES)

9. Will a new character from mythology or literature be introduced this year? (YES)

10. Which character introduced during the first 65 episodes will be the LAST to debut in the comic this year? (King Arthur or possibly Griff if he turns out to be the shadow on the last page of #7)

C.

1. GARGOYLES #3 (NEW CHARACTER (radio), THAILOG)
2. GARGOYLES #4 (BILLY, THAILOG)
3. GARGOYLES #5 (JUDGE ROEBLING, NEW CHARACTER (Shari))
4. GARGOYLES #6 (ANGELA, NEW CHARACTER (Shari))
5. BAD GUYS #1 (NEW CHARACTER (radio), DINGO)
6. GARGOYLES #7 (COYOTE, LEXINGTON)

D.

1. Name the regular characters from BAD GUYS who will appear on the cover of GARGOYLES: BAD GUYS #1. (Matrix).
2. Name all the characters who will appear on the cover of GARGOYLES #7 (Hudson, Lexington)

TIE-BREAKER: How many times will the word "Goliath" be used this year in the stories (i.e. excluding the editorials section)? (23)

And that's it. People are free to check my maths, but this is what I've got...

Runners up:
Vicky (5), Matt (5), Harvester (6), Ed (6), Samuel (6).

THIRD -- Phoenician (7 points)
SECOND -- Purplegoldfish (9 points)

AND THE WINNER IS...

Vaevictis Asmadi
(9 points, and the tie-break)

Thanks to everyone who played! I'll be doing a 2008 version soon with a slightly different format and, hopefully, a few more meaty questions.
Ed Reynolds
posted @ Mon, Dec 24, 2007 12:31:28 pm EST from 213.187.39.204

from diamondcomic's website:
PLEASE NOTE: Due to the holiday season, "New Releases" information will be posted on Wednesday, December 26th. Books and merchandise shipping this week will be available in stores Friday, December 28th.

I guess that means that gargoyles comics: volume 1 won't be released this year.

Gorebash - when is the sumbit button planned to be closed again?
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Mon, Dec 24, 2007 12:31:07 pm EST from 98.20.237.134

Phoenician > That's a possibility, but I wonder, would this mean that there's always about a 20 year period without a Santa every so often while the new "host" grows up?
Rebel
posted @ Mon, Dec 24, 2007 12:30:15 pm EST from 76.165.35.137

Rebel "Forgot to add my St. Nick comments. If he's human, then he's mortal, unless he's a special case like Macbeth, Demona, or Arthur. So, I wonder if maybe they might go back in time to meet him...maybe Brooklyn meets him during Timedancer?"

Another special case is CuChulainn . . . he was "re-born" into Rory. If he's a mortal that's a possibility a well (which would work with Patrick's thoughts on the jolly guy).

Me? I imagine Greg's Santa is going to be more dramatic and serious than the Coca-Cola one, but I imagine he'll still be able to throw a jolly moment in there somewhere . . . .
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Mon, Dec 24, 2007 12:22:37 pm EST from 70.162.221.121

I'm partial to the Joss Whedon version of Santa Claus.

"Been around since, like, the 1500s. But he wasn't always called Santa. But with, you know, Christmas night, flying reindeer, coming down the chimney - all true. Well, he doesn't traditionally bring presents so much as, you know, disembowel children. But otherwise…" -Anya

Yup, I kind of hope that this is what Greg goes for, being the Joss Whedon fan that he is ;). It is certainly more appealing than all those sappy Christmas/Santa Claus specials.
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Mon, Dec 24, 2007 12:04:37 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Merry Christmas Eve!

I've always been partial to the idea found in a lot of more recent stories about Santa Claus that it's not one person, it's a title that's passed on through the generations. Kind of like being Agent 007 or the Dread Pirate Roberts. ;)

186 days left until The Gathering 2008 in Chicago, Illinois!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"You can't fool me, there ain't no sanity clause." - Chico Marx
posted @ Mon, Dec 24, 2007 11:50:20 am EST from 99.161.91.215

Forgot to add my St. Nick comments. If he's human, then he's mortal, unless he's a special case like Macbeth, Demona, or Arthur. So, I wonder if maybe they might go back in time to meet him...maybe Brooklyn meets him during Timedancer?
Rebel
posted @ Mon, Dec 24, 2007 11:21:04 am EST from 76.165.35.137

I forgot to put my name in earlier, that was me below. Anyway, thanks chris. :)

Just from looking at all the gargoyles we've seen so far and the massive variety there is, I can only conclude that gargoyle genetics works a little differently than everything else's genetics.
Rebel
posted @ Mon, Dec 24, 2007 11:19:15 am EST from 76.165.35.137

<<St. Nick> I would think, and I hope, that if Santa ever shows up in the GU he is a human. Firstly, because he is a Saint and a real person who did a lot of good and that should be honored and respected. Secondly, any traits that seem attributable to a member of the Third Race are of the kind of supernatural silliness that has been added to his character by the uber-commercialization in America and elsewhere.
I hope he remains good ole St. Nick, more like he was in "The Lion, The Witch,..." than how he is in Pepsi and M&M commercials. Ugh.>>

I too am interested to see how Greg interprets Santa Claus in the Gargoyles Universe. Truthfully, there are many myths and legends I want to see in Gargoyles, sooner than "eventually." Though with the Gathering at Avalon now, that will be harder.

I hope he is not as commercialized as the "modern" American Santa. And I do wonder how a Child of Oberon would deliver presents. I tend to think that if the children are wishing for presents from Santa, that's plenty of invitation.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Mon, Dec 24, 2007 11:03:17 am EST from 209.162.56.40

anonymous,
That's pretty much what I was going for. If such a change (to look so much like different species) got into their DNA, it would probably be pretty permanent. I'm just looking at the final product (gargoyle body plan A, B, C, whatever) and saying to myself, 'How could this conceivably be formed?' Of course ALOT gets chalked p to 'just so' stories and magic. I'd love to teach a course (probably graduate level because it would require a butt-load of understanding in comparative anatomy and physiology) in possible cryptozoology anatomy and physiology.

btw I'm of the female persuasion ;)
chris
~R
posted @ Mon, Dec 24, 2007 10:54:37 am EST from 66.211.201.24

I don't think getting Santa in would be very hard. Greg and the other writers were able to get a number of characters into the series rather well. I admit, the least "serious" would be Puck, but still think it's possible. He could be a member of the Third Race, or changeling like Merlin, or even a human who learned magic or was blessed. The fun part, IMO, would be the kind of personality he'd have. Would he be closer to the older versions, like Sinterklaas -- I heard last week on an NPR travel show from a woman who'd celebrated Christmas in the Netherlands (I think), where if you were a bad child you'd be taken to Spain, a lot scarier than switches or coal in your stocking/shoe -- or closer to the modern, American interpretation of the jolly fat man? I'd like to think of him somewhere in the middle. A little gruff and serious, but still kind hearted.

And what about the reindeer? That's what I'd like to know.
Asatira
posted @ Mon, Dec 24, 2007 10:45:12 am EST from 97.82.58.208

St. Nick> I would think, and I hope, that if Santa ever shows up in the GU he is a human. Firstly, because he is a Saint and a real person who did a lot of good and that should be honored and respected. Secondly, any traits that seem attributable to a member of the Third Race are of the kind of supernatural silliness that has been added to his character by the uber-commercialization in America and elsewhere.
I hope he remains good ole St. Nick, more like he was in "The Lion, The Witch,..." than how he is in Pepsi and M&M commercials. Ugh.

Todd> Yes, I recall saying that about Dr. Sato several times. My first thought along those lines was years ago when I reviewed "Deadly Force". I though he would make a great foil character to Dr. Sevarius. And I thought with being revealed to the human world in 1996, the Manhattan Clan would need a friend among the scientific/medical community as an ally.
Turns out, it was a good guess. I figure that for a brief moment I had tapped into the Gargoyles Universe the way Greg does when he writes. Of course, given the interconnectedness of the GU, I suppose it could be considered an educated guess. Afterall, there are plenty of speculations of mine about the GU that turned out wrong.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Mon, Dec 24, 2007 10:44:40 am EST from 24.207.163.239

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