For all the Jeff Bennett & Bill Fagerbakke fans, you can hear them lend their voices to Autobots Prowl and Bulkhead respectively on the new Transformers Animated cartoon. Jeff sounds a lot like Owen which is really neat and worth checking out at least once even if you're not a Transformer's fan.
The Gargoyles Pulse
...updated Mondays afternoon/early evening
posted @ Sun, Jan 6, 2008 10:57:19 pm EST from 70.15.84.29

Heh, honestly I didn't even think about that. Bears were just the first thing that popped into my mind.
Ozzie Arcane - [ozziearcane at yahoo dot com]
"Hello Booby! This is a trap!" - Eggplant Wizard
posted @ Sun, Jan 6, 2008 10:43:38 pm EST from 69.14.122.91

Ozzie> So, once Demona wipes out humanity, her brain will get switched with Stephen Colbert's?
Greg Bishansky
"On the seventh day the Lord rested, but before that he did, he squatted over the side of England and what came out of him... was Ireland. No offense son." - Bill "The Butcher" Cutting
posted @ Sun, Jan 6, 2008 10:16:45 pm EST from 75.56.245.4

Rebel> I've speculated about that particular gargoyle a lot. I suppose it is possible he has Loch Ness blood in him, but it's also possible that some gargoyles of the Wyvern Clan just had aquatic features. As for what the Loch Ness Clan looks like, check out their page on the GargWiki.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Sun, Jan 6, 2008 10:15:19 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

What else would Demona find to blame if she succeeded in killing all humans? No really, the world wouldn't have a sentient population anymore. What's she going to do, blame the wild life? I can just picture it now.

Demona: That bear tipped over a sleeping Gargoyle. The Bears were the true masterminds behind the humans! I knew it all along!

Seriously though. Everyone needs social interaction whether they admit it or not. If you have no one to interact with you go crazy and hallucinate that phones are ringing... please tell me someone gets that reference.
Ozzie Arcane - [ozziearcane at yahoo dot com]
"Hello Booby! This is a trap!" - Eggplant Wizard
posted @ Sun, Jan 6, 2008 10:01:19 pm EST from 69.14.122.91

Incisivis> I don't know, as Christopher Titus says: "Be normal, and the crowd will accept you. Be deranged, and they will make you their leader!"

I have no doubt Demona could find some converts, she's powerful, she's charismatic. She nearly hooked Brooklyn, but went a step too far. That being said, it's doubtful as to how long she could keep them.
Greg Bishansky
"On the seventh day the Lord rested, but before that he did, he squatted over the side of England and what came out of him... was Ireland. No offense son." - Bill "The Butcher" Cutting
posted @ Sun, Jan 6, 2008 9:04:52 pm EST from 75.56.245.4

Demona:

I pretty much agree with everything here on the board: She'd find something else to rage against if she did get her goal of human genoice, she hates Elisa for jealousy and a challenge to her convictions, etc.

I also don't think she knows "every remaining gargoyle", and can agree with the guesses.

I can't see her corrupting a large group of gargoyles, since she's so obviously unhinged. It's not out of the question that she could win some "converts" at some point, though, since there's bound to be other gargoyles who want to strike at humans rather than hiding from them/protecting them in secret.
Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream"--Shirley Jackson
posted @ Sun, Jan 6, 2008 8:47:01 pm EST from 216.36.154.204

Speaking of the Loch Ness clan, something occurred to me recently. This may have been brought up before, but if it was, it happened before I started posting here. Go check out the Avalon clan's page on the wiki, and look at the screenshots of the different clan members. One of them looks a heck of a lot like a sea monster. You reckon he's got Loch Ness blood in him somehow? I'm thinking he probably does. At most, he's half Loch Ness, but more than likely even less than that. But anyway, if I'm right, then he gives us a clue what the Loch Ness clan looks like.
Rebel
posted @ Sun, Jan 6, 2008 8:43:44 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

I have a feeling she knows of the present day Scotland clan, as well as the London Clan. But Japan, Mayan, etc, I doubt she knows of them.
Siren
Don't knock on Death's door. Ring his doorbell and run, he hates that.
posted @ Sun, Jan 6, 2008 7:09:59 pm EST from 68.202.76.113

You think.

Though I agree she doesn't know every remaining gargoyle, I'll bet she knows more than just the Manhattan Clan.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Sun, Jan 6, 2008 5:58:45 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

<<In "The Reckoning", Demona says to Angela, "I know every remaining gargoyle!" I'm wondering if perhaps this is true? (We know she's lying about not recognizing Angela, but that's not what I mean.) >>

Keep in mind, characters in this series can be prone to making absolute statements without knowing what they are talking about.

No, she doesn't know every remaining gargoyle. She may think she does, but either way, it's a false statement.
Greg Bishansky
"On the seventh day the Lord rested, but before that he did, he squatted over the side of England and what came out of him... was Ireland. No offense son." - Bill "The Butcher" Cutting
posted @ Sun, Jan 6, 2008 5:23:04 pm EST from 75.56.245.4

Demona might have been simply saying what she believed to be true - she might honestly believe that the Manhattan gargoyles are the only ones left besides herself (and Thailog, of course).

Incidentally, in "Enter Macbeth", Macbeth describes Goliath's clan as "the last of your kind" - which suggests that he doesn't know about the other clans out there. (He certainly didn't know that Demona was estranged from Goliath and the others.)

I think Demona might actually want to see Elisa betray the clan, in a sense. At least it would reassure her that humans are corrupt and untrustworthy, so that she could settle down again in her comforting prejudice.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Sun, Jan 6, 2008 4:28:25 pm EST from 4.244.215.96

If Demona is aware of Ishimura, it should be interesting to see how she rationalizes that one.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Hopefully, we should appreciate that given points in time are not so significant as the nature of what is impressed on the mind, and how it is retained and used." -Yes ("Remembering High the Memory")
posted @ Sun, Jan 6, 2008 1:41:32 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

Thats a really interesting idea Matt. I could see her convincing a few impresionable individuals to join her in such a raid under the guise of 'protecting the Green.' Kinda like Yama. There would be no reason to destroy 'statues.' Depending of the aboriginal level of the villagers, they probably knew about the gargoyles from folklore and such and may have even greatly respected/revered the gargoyles in their realm.

All it takes is one act of violence to make humans go on a witch hunt. And who better to start it than the master witch herself? Just another in her long list of screw-ups that she'd blame on someone else.

~seems like the fan website is down, but my comp may be just dumb~
chris
why do we build castles in the sky?
posted @ Sun, Jan 6, 2008 1:22:57 pm EST from 66.211.201.24

Ooooo. Here's a creativity demon:

Demona does make contact with the Mayan Clan in 1993. She tricks or convinces some of the Clan to join her in attacking some human village or something like that. So they go and Demona has a good ole time. The next day the Pendant Wearers go out to see what the hell happened and when they return they find that humans had destroyed the whole clan and Demona... or so they thought.

This is cool to me because it would show another way Demona was responsible for the destruction (or almost) of a clan. More than that it would explain why a bunch of human looters/poachers would bother to destroy some statues while at the Pyramid, they had to know that they were rela live gargoyles or else why bother?

The Pendant Wearers may have been away while the whole thing happened and so may not have even known Demona was there.

Just a thought.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Sun, Jan 6, 2008 12:25:00 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Yes, I totally agree with that. All I was saying is that i could see Demona possibly using their goal of protection of the forest to exploit the Mayan Clan as tools and allies. Maybe.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Sun, Jan 6, 2008 11:55:32 am EST from 24.207.163.239

Matt> I don't really see the Mayan going over to Demona's cause without a big shift in their characterization. As gun-ho as they maybe with with the whole "save the earth" thing, it's clear they still respect human life as evidenced by their "we never hurt the villagers" policy. If they had held a more Demonaesque attitude then Zafiro would have had no problem gutting that poor farmer where he stood, plus they seemed to like Elisa well enough.
Algernon
Normality is an illusory state, the only true constant is change.- Ralph Wiggum
posted @ Sun, Jan 6, 2008 11:53:24 am EST from 83.71.110.211

In my opinion, as of "The Reckoning", here is if Demona does know them:

Manhattan - Yes, obviously.
Avalon - Yes, but only through Angela, never met them.
Labyrinth - Not created yet.
London - Yes. Hard to see her not knowing them, but I doubt there is any relationship there.
Mayan - No, too isolated.
Ishimura - I doubt it, but possibly.
Loch Ness - Yeah, I think she knows them... maybe.
Pukhan - No, probably not.
Xanadu - No, probably not.
New Olympus - No, almost certainly not.

Only Greg knows though really. We need more information.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Sun, Jan 6, 2008 11:32:37 am EST from 24.207.163.239

Here's a question. Good one for Ask Greg when it opens...

In "The Reckoning", Demona says to Angela, "I know every remaining gargoyle!" I'm wondering if perhaps this is true? (We know she's lying about not recognizing Angela, but that's not what I mean.) We know she gets around. She doesn't know the Avalon clans, but is she familiar with the world clans? If she is, does she really know on sight, say, every gargoyle in Ishimura? On the other hand, she's so focused and isolated, and it's hard to see her making friends with other clans. She certainly doesn't act like the knows anyone else. Is she only counting the Wyvern survivors?

I wonder how it would change her perspective to learn of the others. Would she be strengthened in her mission, knowing there were more gargoyles for her vision of a gargoyle-only world? Or would she waver, feeling a tiny bit less alone?
bluewyvern
posted @ Sun, Jan 6, 2008 11:20:48 am EST from 69.112.108.43

I don't want to make a blanket statement about how other Clans would view Demona.

Over the next few decades, more and more Clans will become publicly known, some probably very soon (London Clan), some perhaps a century or more from now (Ishimura, New Olympus, etc.). The point is, as they come out of the woodwork, Demona's reactions to them will be very interesting. She probably knows about some of them at least already and it doesn't look like she has any of the ones she is aware of as true allies. Obviously, of the Clans we've met, the Manhattan, Avalon, Labyrinth and Ishimura Clans are very unlikely to ever support her cause. The London Clan, at their worst, would be indifferent to it ("it's a human problem"), though they seem to be back on the path of a strong relationship with humans. The Mayan Clan has had some problems with humanity, and perhaps Demona could exploit that, but in the short term it seems so unlikely. There are too few members of the Clan and they are far too focused on their little corner of the world to them to care about Demona's larger issues.

So that takes us to the other Clans. We don't know enough about Loch Ness, Xanadu or Pukhan to say either way.That leaves only the New Olympus Clan. On the one hand, they are probably the most likely to be anti-humanity of all the Clans, but they also seem to be very isolationist, so, like the Mayan Clan, they may not have the scope to be of any benefit to Demona. I would like to see them welcome her as a friend though, even if they don't outright support her cause. I'm sure they could sympathize with her troubles with humans since many of their ancestors came to New Olympus to escape human persecution presumably.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Sun, Jan 6, 2008 11:18:41 am EST from 24.207.163.239

I tend to think that if Demona really did destroy humanity, she'd just go looking for a new scapegoat to blame for all her woes. I think Golaith would be a good candidate if he's still around by then or maybe Mac and the Weird Sisters. Sometimes I think it would be easier just to draw up a list of the people Demona Didn't hate, it would probably be pretty short.

I too wonder what Demona actually plans to do after destroying humanity. She's made vague assertions about ruling the world and/or the gargoyle race (so she's a megalomaniac on top off everything else). Does she expect the surviving gargoyle population to declare her their Immortal Empress or something? I can't really imagine any of the known clans* treating as anything more than a dangerous psychopath.

On a semi-related note, I've often wondered how Demona would react to Ishimura. If she hates Elisa for proving her wrong about humanity then Ishimura would really blow her mind. Personally, I tend to think she'd denounce the Ishimura Clan as having been "corrupted by the humans" and try to kill everybody.

*I'm defining "known clans" as ones that we've already met "on-screen" e.g. London or Mayan as opposed to Xanadu or Loch Ness.
Algernon
Normality is an illusory state, the only true constant is change.- Ralph Wiggum
posted @ Sun, Jan 6, 2008 10:28:54 am EST from 83.71.110.211

I think Antiyonder made a good point. I think Demona could just be waiting for the other shoe to drop with Elisa. Every human she trusted "betrayed" her, sometimes it took years, but it happened, even when she was "a little bit in love" with them. So, Demona-Macbeth may be a good comparison, in Demona's mind, of Goliath-Elisa. Sure, things seem great now, but wait'll she betrays you and the clan is destroyed. She probably hopes Goliath will come back to her then. Not to mention she is probably afraid for her daughter being close to Elisa.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Sun, Jan 6, 2008 9:38:31 am EST from 24.207.163.239

I also think that Demona probably would go mad if all the humans were wiped out and she survived. She'd no longer have a convenient target to blame her own problems upon. As long as the humans are around, she can point at them and say that it's all their fault, rather than admitting her own responsibility for the Wyvern Massacre. (Maybe her link to Macbeth isn't so unfortunate for her; if her scheme to wipe out all humans succeeds and includes him in it, then at least she won't survive the achieving of her goals and have to face the consequences of her actions in a humanless world.)
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Sun, Jan 6, 2008 7:25:41 am EST from 4.244.210.121

Actually, I don't think Demona really thought that far in advance at all. She's insane, she's just seeing her short term goals. She didn't put a whole lot of thought into her plan with the captain-and look how that ended up-it destroyed her life.

If she destroys the humans, she will end up more alone than she's ever been. She would just go completely mad like Ozzie Arcane said, that is until Macbeth comes and kills her (if he already isn't dead, which would mean she would be dead too). For her plan in Hunter's Moon, she didn't even think of the consequences if her spell killed macbeth, and that probably would have killed her despite the praying gargoyle.
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Sun, Jan 6, 2008 4:17:04 am EST from 64.148.27.152

I would think Demona has thought about what to do if she succeeded in exterminating humans.

With humans out of the way, I think she would believe that the gargoyle population could grow over time, and she can wait however long it takes.

After a few centuries she would have her vision of paradise with gargoyles all over the globe and only one human.
Ntripy
"All things are true" "...though who can say if it be true"
posted @ Sun, Jan 6, 2008 3:45:08 am EST from 72.232.196.138

Purplegoldfish - "So what were to happen if Demona obliterated all the humans on the planet--Would she really be happy? I doubt it."

I have to say, I agree. I think it's one of those cases where the villain really doesn't think about what they'll do once they accomplish their goal. With how few Gargoyles there are, if Demona wiped out humanity the world wouldn't even feel like it had a population at all. The clan would never accept her back as it is, let alone if she succeeded at doing such a terrible thing. She would no longer have anyone around her when she turns into human during the day, she would finally be completely alone. Lacking anyone to interact with, I can only imagine she would fall from being mad with hatred to completely insane.
Ozzie Arcane - [ozziearcane at yahoo dot com]
"Hello Booby! This is a trap!" - Eggplant Wizard
posted @ Sun, Jan 6, 2008 3:26:34 am EST from 69.14.122.91

I wonder where Delilah fits in the list of Demona's most hated. Of course hating Delilah would be as irrational as hating a child produced by a one night stand with say, Hitler, just because of association, but when was the last time Demona was remotely rational? Delilah would be seen as an abomination on so many levels. Some who would embody humanity, the most hated woman, Thailog's betrayal, and even her own self-hatred. So much hate, poor kid.
chris
why do we build castles in the sky?
posted @ Sun, Jan 6, 2008 2:16:12 am EST from 66.211.201.24

Also, concerning how Demona would react to Elisa saving her daughter, she would probably look at it this way. Macbeth saved her in the past, and then betrayed her clan to the Hunter.

So in Demona's world for the time being, life saving probably doesn't disprove treachery.
Antiyonder
posted @ Sun, Jan 6, 2008 12:53:33 am EST from 72.87.13.156

I think maybe, in a bizarre psychological way, Demona sees Elisa as a representation of herself, before all that hatred took over. Or maybe that's too deep ;)
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Sun, Jan 6, 2008 12:45:26 am EST from 64.148.27.152

Patrick> Demona hates Elisa for many reasons. She represents how wrong Demona actually is, and yes, jealousy. But, apparently, Elisa is at the top of Demona's hate list.

Greg posted, when asked about how much Demona hates certain characters:

"Well, this is a little pointless, but if I have to rank your list, at this time, i.e. as of issue #1 of the comic book, I'd put 'em in this order of hate:
Elisa
Hunters
Thailog
Goliath
Macbeth
human race
rest of clan
Puck"
Greg Bishansky
"On the seventh day the Lord rested, but before that he did, he squatted over the side of England and what came out of him... was Ireland. No offense son." - Bill "The Butcher" Cutting
posted @ Sun, Jan 6, 2008 12:40:26 am EST from 67.87.175.245

Elisa has replaced Demona in the clan. And who's fault is that? Demona's..and deep down she probably knows it. And yeah, I think she believes that Elisa would never betray them, and she knows deep down that she herself betrayed them, but she can't admit that, so Demona projects all her inner hatred onto Elisa

If, hypothetically speaking, Demona had repented and joined the clan early on and reconciled with Goliath, Elisa would not have come between them. It's Demona's own actions that actually helped push them together even more-and I think she knows that too.

So what were to happen if Demona obliterated all the humans on the planet--Would she really be happy? I doubt it.
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Sun, Jan 6, 2008 12:31:47 am EST from 64.148.27.152

Patrick > I agree. If Elisa were Elias or something, there's no way she'd hate him as much. Demona hates Elisa because she disproves Demona's assumptions about humanity, and because she's become a welcome addition to her former clan. But I'd say she definitely also hates her because Goliath cares for her, and she has essentially replaced Demona in his life.
Rebel
posted @ Sun, Jan 6, 2008 12:08:21 am EST from 24.227.200.138

Siren: I don't know. I get the impression that Demona might be incensed that someone stole her chance for revenge. She blames us for her mistakes, and she's been carrying that baggage for a while, so I think SHE's the one who has to do it.

I actually look upon that as one of her initial motives for joining the resistance in 2198. Not only will the Spawn take her opportunity for revenge from her, but I don't think the Spawn are interested in genocide as much as they are conquest. And Demona doesn't want to see us neutralized, she wants us dead.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Hopefully, we should appreciate that given points in time are not so significant as the nature of what is impressed on the mind, and how it is retained and used." -Yes ("Remembering High the Memory")
posted @ Sun, Jan 6, 2008 12:01:21 am EST from 71.62.198.251

A hypothetical scenario to ponder: With all other things being equal, would Demona hate the clan's human friend as much if it was a man instead of a woman? I think there's at least as much of a romantic jealousy to Demona's loathing of Elisa as there is the element of she just flat-out hates humans... if not more so.

174 days left until The Gathering 2008 in Chicago, Illinois!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Sat, Jan 5, 2008 11:30:00 pm EST from 76.241.154.165

I think Demona realizes Elisa has proven herself and she is true to them. Which is why Demona hates her so much. Not only has she "stolen" Goliath's affection, but she also proves her entire cause false that all humans treat or will treat gargoyles harshly. Elisa has time and time again, risked her life to help the gargoyles. Not even the Captain of the Guard did that. And that bothers her terribly. To the point of deep hatred, because Elisa is the exception and Demona hates her for it. For being good.

As to if someone else destroyed the human race. I think Demona would be bothered that she didn't do it herself, but I don't think Demona is that much of a glory hound to be hateful of the one who did it.
Siren
Don't knock on Death's door. Ring his doorbell and run, he hates that.
posted @ Sat, Jan 5, 2008 10:44:23 pm EST from 68.202.76.113

Since we speculate Demona's reactions to fan comment, how would she react at the implication that she and Macbeth would make a good couple? Blow your head off? Pull every limb of your body?

Greg B> Londo: You want to live as much as I, hmm?
G'Kar *laughing*: Oh, yes, but I would much rather see you dead!
Londo: Oh, I see. Well, here I am. Come on. Kill me! Come kill me!
G'Kar *still laughing*: You forget the terms of our surrender! The penalty for the killing of any Centauri by any Narn will be the death of 500 Narn *shouting now* including the perpetrator's own family! *softly* But I don't have to kill you. *begins laughing again* I don't have to do anything! And I still get to watch you die! I find this most appealing! *Keeps giggling*
Londo: This is insane! We must work together!
G'Kar *still giggling*: No! As the Humans say, "Up yours! Die!"

You'll see a scenario like that before you ever see Demona willingly work with Elisa. She hates the Detective that much.

Think you'd be interested in typing the Demona/Elisa equivelent to that dialogue?


As for how she'd react to Elisa saving Angela, Demona might think that Elisa is really working hard to maintain the clan's trust.
Antiyonder
posted @ Sat, Jan 5, 2008 10:17:51 pm EST from 72.87.13.156

Todd, that would be an excellent Ask Greg question. I'd be interested to see what his response would be.
Rebel
posted @ Sat, Jan 5, 2008 10:12:56 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

Titania: *whispers* Fox, don't buy the shoes when across the sea, they will lead you to doom.

Fox: *stunned silence*
Anonymous
posted @ Sat, Jan 5, 2008 9:03:50 pm EST from 70.230.189.125

Speaking of G'Kar, one of my favorite scenes with him in "Babylon 5" was when he was planning to assassinate the Centauri Emperor in revenge for everything that the Centauri had done to the Narns, is lying in wait for the Emperor (who's visiting Babylon 5) - and the Emperor never shows up. Then G'Kar learns that the Emperor had suddenly taken ill, had to change his route as a result, and is now actually dying. His response is one of (paraphrasing from memory) "How dare he be so inconsiderate as to die from natural causes before I could kill him?"

Makes me wonder how Demona would take it if humanity got wiped out some other way and she didn't have anything to do with its extinction.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Sat, Jan 5, 2008 8:56:16 pm EST from 4.245.22.178

I had an interesting experience in another forum: I used the quote: "Know her? I NAMED her." and got a response of "Demona".

Asatira - Just checking.

GXB - I actually enjoyed that conversation between G'kar and London. That's an excellent example of the limitations of thinking. The policy should have included "or through inaction allow the death of a Centauri" when including punishment.

TIGUH included a reference to Bad Guys issue #1. I noticed that Greg hasn't put out dates for 'recruitment' of any of the Bad Guys yet.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Sat, Jan 5, 2008 7:53:22 pm EST from 98.20.210.219

When I read Greg Weisman's entry for January 4 in "This Day in the Gargoyles Universe", I was initially concerned that he included the death of Edward the Confessor as one of the events for that day; the various books that I had read about the Norman Conquest dated it to January 5 instead. But I went back over one of my favorite books on that part of English history, "1066: the Year of the Conquest" by David Howarth, and found that both January 4 and January 5 had been given as possible dates for Edward's passing, with the author suggesting that he might have died during the intervening night. So Greg may not have erred after all.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Sat, Jan 5, 2008 6:22:25 pm EST from 4.244.211.208

Ed> We may know that with Katana ('cause shes from feudal Japan) but we don't know that about Fu-Dog. Brooklyn could've picked Fu-Dog up in the 1990s for all we know.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Sat, Jan 5, 2008 5:33:33 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Matt: They wouldn't count because they aren't part of the 1996 versions of any clans.

Youtube: While it's distasteful, I'm not convinced it's really harmful to the show at this point. Anyone who's going to buy the DVDs on his/her own accord will have already done so. That means, the youtube episodes are catering to people who either don't care about the DVDs or who aren't yet immersed in the fandom enough to care to track them to DVD. The former we don't have much chance of grabbing anyway, but the latter could be assets to the fandom. Some of these things have 20,000 views by the looks of things. I can't believe there's not a few hundred potential comic readers in there. Moreover, on youtube we can at least promote the comic and DVDs, whereas if people go for less public piracy venues we don't have that option.

Incidentally, I believe today is the 10th anniversary of my first post at S8, which is also pretty much the beginning of my involvement with 'Gargoyles' fandom. Don't know that I ever expected to be here discussing all new 'Gargoyles' material in 2008. I wonder where we'll all be in 2018...
Ed Reynolds
"I saw a cockroach playing Pacman. It was on the internet, right, and somebody had linked up a cockroach to err... to some... I can't even be bothered explaining it, but that's what I'm saying - everything is moving on" -- Karl Pilkington
posted @ Sat, Jan 5, 2008 5:22:29 pm EST from 213.187.39.204

dph> I only thought of four names, and couldn't think of / remember the other clans, so I put down the four I could think of and hope I get the points for the ones I guessed.
Asatira
posted @ Sat, Jan 5, 2008 4:33:11 pm EST from 97.82.58.208

MATT> I'm not saying something exactly like that would ever play out. Just an example of turning that cliche on its head.
Greg Bishansky
"On the seventh day the Lord rested, but before that he did, he squatted over the side of England and what came out of him... was Ireland. No offense son." - Bill "The Butcher" Cutting
posted @ Sat, Jan 5, 2008 3:59:50 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Except I don't think Demona would care a bit about social consequences or rules. She'd rip Elisa apart in the situation.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Sat, Jan 5, 2008 3:57:45 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Meant to reply to this sooner:

Rebel: <<Haha! Demona and Elisa having to work together to save Angela! That would be priceless.>>

Some how, I doubt it would ever, ever, ever happen. Demona would not do it, she would try and save Angela herself, without the Detective. I do think she hates Elisa a little bit more than she loves Angela.

Now, I know the "two enemies put aside their differences for the greater good" cliche is a popular one, but I love it when it gets turned on its head. I hope, if Greg ever goes for it, he does so in the least cliched way possible.

I am thinking something along the lines of a scene in "Babylon 5". The characters of Londo and G'Kar, two bitter, very real enemies are trapped in an elevator together and have to work together if they want to survive. Very old cliche, and I love what J. Michael Straczynski did with it:

Londo: You want to live as much as I, hmm?
G'Kar *laughing*: Oh, yes, but I would much rather see you dead!
Londo: Oh, I see. Well, here I am. Come on. Kill me! Come kill me!
G'Kar *still laughing*: You forget the terms of our surrender! The penalty for the killing of any Centauri by any Narn will be the death of 500 Narn *shouting now* including the perpetrator's own family! *softly* But I don't have to kill you. *begins laughing again* I don't have to do anything! And I still get to watch you die! I find this most appealing! *Keeps giggling*
Londo: This is insane! We must work together!
G'Kar *still giggling*: No! As the Humans say, "Up yours! Die!"

You'll see a scenario like that before you ever see Demona willingly work with Elisa. She hates the Detective that much.
Greg Bishansky
"On the seventh day the Lord rested, but before that he did, he squatted over the side of England and what came out of him... was Ireland. No offense son." - Bill "The Butcher" Cutting
posted @ Sat, Jan 5, 2008 3:13:20 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Asatira - Got a question about your answer to #1. Just so I got things straight: you're saying 5 present-day gargoyle clans will appear and you're naming only 4 of them.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Sat, Jan 5, 2008 1:10:09 pm EST from 98.20.210.219

Section A

1. 5 Manhattan, ishimura, Labyrinth, London, Mayan
2. Yes Merlin, Stone of Destiny
3. 4 North America, South, America, Asia, Europe
4. yes Vinnie, Sevarius, Castaway, Maggie, Talon, Claw, Jason, Malibu, Hollywood, Burbank, Delilah, Griff, Arthur Banquo, Fleance
5. yes Banquo, Fleance, Coldstone, Coldfire

Section B

6. No
7. No
8. Yes
9. Yes
10. 9 times
11. Yes
12. No
13. No
14. No
15. 5 times
16. Yes
17. No
18. No
19. Yes
20. Yes

Section C1

A. Yama
B. Lex, Hudson, Macbeth, Arthur, Griff, New Character, New Character
C. Fang
D. Fox, Alex, Xanatos
E. Dingo, Hunter
F. Brooklyn
G. Yama, Fang
H. Brooklyn, Mary, Finella
I. Hunter, Dingo, Matrix, Fang, Yama
J. Brooklyn, Katana, Nashville, Tachi(egg), Fu Dog
K. Arthur, Griff
L. Goliath, Brooklyn, Angela, Broadway, Lexington, Hudson, Katana, Nashville, Bronx, Fu Dog

2/3

A. Matrix, Yama
B. Griff, Coldsteel
C. Hunter, Fang
D. Coyote, Goliath
E. Fang, New Character
F. Angela, Brooklyn
G. New Character, Matrix
H. Brooklyn, Finella
I. Hunter, Dingo
J. Brooklyn, Broadway
K. New Character, Arthur
L. Goliath, Katana

Tie Break 18
Vicky82 - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]
posted @ Sat, Jan 5, 2008 8:08:29 am EST from 195.93.21.4

After waiting patiently, I finally bought the Gargoyles Season 1 and Season 2 Volume 1 DVDs! I can't wait for them to arrive! At least I don't have to watch the first 39 episodes on YouTube anymore.

Joy... ^_^

And then comes the creation of a music video...but that's a little later.
The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>^^)> They'll be here soon...
posted @ Sat, Jan 5, 2008 4:01:25 am EST from 72.199.225.9

KIT KAT!

This is amazing. I've been thinking lately about looking you up, too! How wonderful to know you're still around.

I won't clutter up the CR with catching up, I'll definitely e-mail you.

It's a good time to be back. :D
bluewyvern
posted @ Sat, Jan 5, 2008 2:13:27 am EST from 208.194.97.9

Wow, I go on vacation, and some fantastic topics come up while I'm gone! I've enjoyed perusing everyone's responses.

Ed> Whew, I feel old, since so many of those old nineties names are so familiar to me! I distinctly remember some very good trades with Bud-Clare and Thaylog ... I was going to offer to try to contact Tanika, but it seems that she beat me to it ....

...bluewyvern> Believe it or not, my mom and I were just talking about you a week ago, when I came across an old photograph of you and me in Gabriel's tree that winter you came to visit Arkansas. She asked me if we still talked at all, and I told her it had been years and years, but that I wondered how you were doing. I've only been back to the comment room for a little while, and I've changed my handle, but it's me! Kit Kat, Sarah, your very own Captain of the Nitpicker Patrol for BlackCliff Castle all those years ago!

I've been wondering how you are, and hoping to find a way to get back in touch, and here you are, magically appearing in Cyberspace! Please, please, PLEASE e-mail me (arkansasmezzo@gmail.com) -- I'm so surprised and happy to have found you!

See what you started, Ed? ;)
Arkansas Mezzo - [arkansasmezzo at gmail dot com]
posted @ Sat, Jan 5, 2008 1:00:03 am EST from 206.255.79.132

Section A
1. 5: Manhattan, Labrynth, London, Ishimura
2. No.
3. 4. North America, Asia, Australia, South America
4. Yes.
5. Yes.

Section B
6. Yes.
7. No.
8. No.
9. Yes.
10. 6.
11. Yes.
12. No.
13. No.
14. No.
15. 3.
16. Yes.
17. No.
18. No.
19. Yes.
20. Yes.

Section C
1.a. BAD GUYS #2 Dingo
b. GARGOYLES #8Hudson, Lex, Macbeth, Griff, Arthur
c. BAD GUYS #3 Yama
d. GARGOYLES #9 Lex, Hudson
e. BAD GUYS #4 Fang
f) GARGOYLES #10 Brooklyn, Angela, Broadway, Bronx
g) BAD GUYS #5 Hunter
h) GARGOYLES #11 Brooklyn
i) BAD GUYS #6 Yama, Matrix, Fang, Hunter, Dingo
j) GARGOYLES #12 Brooklyn
k) PENDRAGON #1 Arthur, Griff
l) GARGOYLES #13

2. a) BAD GUYS #2 Dingo
b) GARGOYLES #8 Hudson
c) BAD GUYS #3 Hunter
d) GARGOYLES #9 Coldsteel
e) BAD GUYS #4 New Character
f) GARGOYLES #10 Goliath
g) BAD GUYS #5 New Character
h) GARGOYLES #11
i) BAD GUYS #6 Dingo
j) GARGOYLES #12 Brooklyn
k) PENDRAGON #1 Arthur
l) GARGOYLES #13

Tie break: 24
Asatira
posted @ Sat, Jan 5, 2008 12:40:01 am EST from 97.82.58.208

There, I just got Matt's answers added to the list as well as mine.

http://home.windstream.net/melvinsh/garg/garg2008predanswers.htm
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Sat, Jan 5, 2008 12:22:19 am EST from 98.20.210.219

Matt - I'm not in favor of changing any answers year-around, but Robby's comments last week about working on bg issue #2 got me thinking bg issue #2 won't be about at the earliest 1st or 2nd week of February. I don't plan on changing my answers unless bg issue #2 comes out a lot sooner than I really expect (ie. I don't believe Pendragon issue #1 will be released this year). At that point, I may change some of my answers once before issue #2 hits the stores so that the contents won't affect my answers, the earlier arrival date means I factor in Pendragon issue #1 into my answers. Other than one possibility my answers are literally etched in stone as much as anybody else's answers are.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Sat, Jan 5, 2008 12:15:38 am EST from 98.20.210.219

My answers:

Section A

1. 5: Ishimura, Labryinth, London, Manhattan, Guatamela

2. YES. Merlin, Kay, Ector, Stone of Destiny

3. 5: Europe, Asia, North America, Australia, South America

4. YES. Jon Canmore/Jon Castaway, Talon, Maggie, Claw

5. YES. Banquo, Florence, Coldstone, Coldfire

Section B

6. YES

7. NO

8. YES

9. YES

10. 4

11. YES

12. YES, Coyote 5.0

13. YES

14. YES unless it effects timing

15. Thrice

16. YES

17. NO

18. NO

19. NO

20. YES

C1:
a. Yama
c. Fang
e. Dingo
g. Robyn Canmore
i. Previously Unknown Character
all else - David Xanatos

C2&3
a. Matrix, Non-Character
c. Dingo, Non-Character
e. Fang, Non-Character
f. Robyn Canmore, Non-Character
g. Yama, Non-Character
all else - David Xanatos

TIE BREAKER: 20


*disappears to update the list of people's answers*
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Sat, Jan 5, 2008 12:00:51 am EST from 98.20.210.219

dph> I'm sorry if I was a jerk earlier. I actually think the page is a great idea. But allowing people to change their answers throughout the year is not a good idea, IMHO. The whole point is to guess now, throughout the year we will receive huge clues in the issues, solicitations and revelations from Greg about future episodes. If you want to do it issue by issue, fine, but this is a prediction for the whole year and we should have the deadline for all submissions completed within a week. Period.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 11:45:51 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Guys, I had a chat with Ed before I posted. I'm not taking anything over; I'm just trying to make it easier to keep track of people's submitted answers by making a single page that has everybody's answers on it for easy reference.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 11:39:05 pm EST from 98.20.210.219

Dang, I forgot something. On Section A, Question 4, add Vinnie to that list. Sorry, no more changes.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 11:34:48 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Time for my guesses... why do I get the feeling I'm gonna read this post in a year and laugh...

Section A
1. Four. Manhattan, London, Ishimura, Labyrinth.
2. Yes. Stone of Destiny, Merlin
3. Three. North America, Europe, Asia.
4. Yes. Arthur, Griff, Sevarius, Castaway, Banquo, Fleance, Maggie, Talon, Claw, Al, Malibu, Hollywood, Burbank, Delilah.
5. Yes. Banquo, Fleance.

Section B
6. No
7. No
8. No
9. Yes
10. Seven times
11. No
12. No
13. Yes
14. Yes
15. Two times
16. Yes
17. No
18. No
19. No
20. No

Section C
a. Yama
b. Coldsteel, Coyote
c. Hunter
d. Macbeth, Xanatos
e. Fang
f. Brooklyn, Broadway, Angela
g. Hunter, Dingo, Matrix, Yama, Fang
h. Brooklyn, Katana, Nashville, Fu-Dog
i. New Character, Hunter
j. Goliath, Brooklyn
k. Arthur, Griff, New Character
l. Lexington, Alex

2 & 3.
a. Vinnie - Yama
b. Shari - Xanatos
c. New Character - Fang
d. Coldfire - Macbeth
e. Hunter - Fang
f. Angela - Broadway
g. Matrix - New Character
h. Xanatos - Brooklyn
i. Hunter - Dingo
j. Goliath - Katana
k. Griff - New Character
l. Lexington - Owen

We'll see...
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 11:20:46 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Chris - Yeah, if you'd be willing, that'd be great. They may not do it, but there's no harm in asking...it's worth a shot. If a few more people here add favorable support, I say go for it! Thanks chris!
Rebel
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 11:01:23 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

Ed> I'm still not clear on the A.1. question. Both Katana and Fu-Dog are from clans that exist in the modern day. If they appear in 2008 comics as showing up in New York with Brooklyn and no flashbacks are seen of them in their own clans, do they count as appearances of the Ishimura or Xanadu clans?
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 10:44:38 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

I'm the only one who posted guesses? heh, I didn't put a whole lot of thought into it. And I forgot about the tiebreaker-I'll say 7.
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 10:36:27 pm EST from 64.148.37.75

Greg B> I don't want anyone posting episodes that we already have on DVD, I think that is wrong, but nothing from "Monsters" on has ever been sold by Disney is any form and for many YouTube is the only way to see those episodes. I watch those episodes on there myself. They shouldn't be posting anything that is on the DVDs, but I think posting the unreleased episodes is great. It generates interest, it is a way for people to see those episodes, and if anything it is another sign to Disney that there is a market for putting those episodes on DVD, in which case they should be removed from YouTube.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 9:55:19 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Matt> Hmm. Wasn't actually expecting an answer. Okay.
Asatira
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 9:30:25 pm EST from 97.82.58.208

In my experience, the people who post the episodes on YouTube don't care about the DVDs or the fandom at large. Last time I spoke to one, he or she didn't even buy the DVDs, just downloaded the episodes. Why pay for it when they can get it for free?

"I don't want it to be illegal, therefore it isn't. That's how it works!"
Greg Bishansky
"On the seventh day the Lord rested, but before that he did, he squatted over the side of England and what came out of him... was Ireland. No offense son." - Bill "The Butcher" Cutting
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 9:19:39 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

YouTube> There are ways of messaging a video creator directly, but I'm not certain how effective it would be. A single person posted all of the episodes, and since they're already posted, it's unlikely s/he would post anything else.- a thought though- if it was possible for s/he to reload the video *description* to include such links s/he may be amicable to such a suggestion. As for future videos, there are new gargoyles music videos posted *daily* by tons of different people, trying to ask all of them seems a little out of the question-but maybe some of the top creators would be plausible.

Anyways, I volunteer to email the individual who posted all of the episodes and some of the music video creators who post regularly if enough of the gang in here second the motion/idea- I have another week to kill before returning to work from the holiday.
chris
why do we build castles in the sky?
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 9:03:38 pm EST from 66.211.201.24

Please remember the competition is meant as a fun diversion, nothing more. A snapshot of our expectations now to look back on. It's more guesswork than judgment; it's "How many beans in the jar". No need to overthink your answers; it's not meant to be taken that seriously. Jot them down and forget about them. Come the end of the year, I'll set aside some time to look up the archives, tally up the scores and post up the results. Simple really.

Matt: Oh, now I see what you meant before -- I didn't specify "last line". Sigh. Well, if everyone fills in a last line, I'll include it but don't worry otherwise. Sorry for that.

Rebel: That's a cool idea. I say go for it!
Ed Reynolds
"Flies used to be happy-go-lucky, on their own; the sun's out, have a fly about. Now, there's little attacks going on." -- Karl Pilkington
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 8:53:06 pm EST from 213.187.39.204

Hey, just thought about this, not sure if it's been mentioned yet. I don't use youtube, so I'm not sure if it has any kind of private messaging feature or other way to communicate with users besides just making comments on videos...but, what if we (politely) requested the people on youtube with popular gargoyles videos to put a link to the DVDs and comics (Amazon, I guess) in their video descriptions? We could even ask that person who has all the episodes posted. I don't know if anyone would do it, but it'd be worth a shot. Future videos could even include a quick little blurb at the end of the video itself. Anyway, just something to think about for any of you with youtube accounts.

(FYI though, if any of you do decide to do this, please say so in this CR. We don't want these people being bombarded with requests all of a sudden, so we'd only need one person to do it).
Rebel
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 8:38:43 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

DPH> I second Matt, let Ed have this.
Greg Bishansky
"On the seventh day the Lord rested, but before that he did, he squatted over the side of England and what came out of him... was Ireland. No offense son." - Bill "The Butcher" Cutting
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 7:57:13 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

And dph, this IS Ed's contest. You are dph of rules, not dph of Ed's rules.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 7:43:28 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Wait, thats not good. The point is being able to guess from the beginning. If people are able to change answers throughout the year, then it'll be chaos and kinda pointless.

And on your site, as in Ed's original posting, C 2and3 only ask for the first line. There is no mention of the last line of a given comic.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 7:41:15 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

I've set up a page to keep track of the actual questions: http://home.windstream.net/melvinsh/garg/garg2008predcomp.htm
Here's a page to keep track of the submitted answers here: http://home.windstream.net/melvinsh/garg/garg2008predanswers.htm

Submissions have to be made by posting in this cr - not by private email/im conversation/anything else

Initial answers have to be posted by the end of next week. Period. Answers can be changed *once* and only *once*. The deadline for final changes is 24 hours after the Monday when Diamond comics website says the next new issue of a gargoyles comic (not the compiled issue) is coming out that week or February 19, whichever comes first. This is done mainly in case you change your mind about whether Pendragon issue #1 will come out this year. I gotta spend more time working out my answers.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 7:30:33 pm EST from 98.20.210.219

Ed-you're killing me! I really don't have time to do this :P

Here are my guesses:

A1. 4- Manhattan clan, Labyrinth clan, Ishimuran clan, London clan
2. Yes- Merlin, Stone of Destiny
3. 4- North America, Asia, Eruope, Australia
4. Yes- Vinnie, Maggie, Talon, Claw, Al, Sevarius, John Canmore/Castaway,
Jason Canmore, Coyote robot, Malibu, Burbank, Hollywood, Delilah, Xanatos,
Coldsteel, Fox
5. Yes- Iago, Banquo, Fleance, Titania

B6. Yes
7. Yes
8. Yes
9. Yes
10. 8 times
11. No
12. Yes
13. Yes
14. No
15. 4 times
16. Yes
17. Yes
18. No
19. Yes
20. Yes

C1.
a. Yama
b. Coyote robot, Hudson
c. Hunter
d. Arthur, Macbeth, Xanatos
e. Fang
f. Brooklyn, Broadway, Angela
g. Dingo
h. Brooklyn
i. Dingo, Hunter, Matrix, New character
j. Brooklyn, Katana, Nashville, Fu-dog, Goliath, Elisa, Hudson, Lexington, Angela, Broadway, Bronx, New character
k. Arthur, Griff
l. Goliath, Elisa

C2&3
a. Dingo, Yama
b. Macbeth, New character
c. Matrix, Hunter
d. Shari, Brooklyn
e. Fang, New character
f. Broadway, Brooklyn
g. New character, Hunter
h. Owen, Angela
i. Dingo, Fang
j. Thailog, Goliath
k. Griff, New character
l. Matt Bluestone, Xanatos
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 6:07:59 pm EST from 64.148.37.75

(Re: Lex): Broadway and Angela got together 10 episodes after meeting, and Broadway was actively pursuing Angela. If Lex meets a potential mate in "Rock & Roll", I'd expect it to be pretty slow-burn (at least, by the pacing of the comic). Especially since it looks like it'll be a long-distance thing.

DPH: (1) It's more fun (and easier to count) to have just one set of guesses. But in Section C, only released issues will be counted.
(2) Sure, that would be awesome.
(3) Yeah, but I can't promise I'm going to have time to do it myself.
(4) I was getting at an unambiguous death -- not "he went down with the sub but probably survived" or "he'll be back, upgraded". But since I haven't worded the question specifically enough for that, I'd have to say, yes, Coyote 5.0 would count.

Matt: (re: Best Writer) I nearly skipped out the category. But it seemed like such a glaring omission that Greg wouldn't be eligible for a Gargy!

(A1). No, it has to be someone from the present-day clans -- someone from 1996. Yama will count for Ishimura if we see him prior to banishment.
(A2). Oh, good one. Yeah, guess so.
(A3). Asia, Africa, North America, South America, Antarctica, Europe and Australasia.
(B14). If it impacts on the search for the Rock at all, it's significant. If the scenes are entirely self-contained, or build to a different plot, it'll be insignificant to the pursuit. I know this question is open to ambiguity, and perhaps we'll have to make a judgment call once we've read #9, but it's one of the big hanging mysteries and I wanted to get it in somehow.
(C2) is first line, (C3) is last line.

Purplegoldfish: Cheers for catching that; have to correct that later. As you might have guessed, I moved the "how many?" questions around so that there were no more than 5 yes/no answers in a row.
Ed Reynolds
"That's the problem with them fables, they're putting animals together that wouldn't meet. I don't know where a scorpion is knockin' around with a frog." -- Karl Pilkington
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 5:00:39 pm EST from 213.187.39.204

Ed> With question 14 who says what is or isn't significant?
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 4:32:45 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Antiyonder> Yeah, that is what I was thinking too. Lex doesn't seem like the kind of guy to let that get him down. I can see Lex's eventual relationship being more accidental, not soething he pursues, just something that sorta happens in his life, especially because of the way it'll need to be written.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 4:16:03 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Does the current version of Coyote the robot count towards question #12?
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 4:15:13 pm EST from 98.20.210.219

We'll have to see what Greg is planning for Lex, but I don't know if being mateless for the time being would get Lex down. I mean he does have Alex for campanionship, much like Hudson and Bronx keep other company.

After all, not everyone broods about the lack of a love life, so I'd expect Lex to handle it differently from Brooklyn.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 4:06:08 pm EST from 71.115.192.199

Ed> Questions about the quesions:

A.1. Alright, Greg has said that Angela has joint membership in both the Manhattan and Avalon Clans, though I understand why you've decided to only include her in the Manhattan Clan for purposes of this question. I wonder, however, about Katana. If we only see Katana in New York after the Timedance when she has joined the Manhattan Clan and we never see the Ishimura Clan in any other instance, does her appearance count as an appearance by the Ishimura Clan?

A. 2. Does the Stone of Destiny count as an Arthurian character?

A. 3. On what continent counting system are you using? 7 continents?

C. 2&3. I may be missing something here. How is this two questions?
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 4:05:36 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Ed - 1)Can we have two sets of answers for some questions, as a means of hedging bets about Pendragon issue #1 coming out this year? 2)Can somebody put a website with your questions and fill it in with each person's set of answers so it is more easy to track down winners/losers? 3)At the end of March, June, and September, can we go back to this list to see how people are doing?

*goes off to work out a set(s) of answers*
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 3:47:21 pm EST from 98.20.210.219

Asatira> One person voted for everything else, but did not vote at all on Best Writer category.

That person was my best friend, Ryan. He says he loves Greg's writing, but feels morally opposed from voting when there is only one person to vote for. It was a principle thing. I guess he feels that to vote for Greg would've been like a dictator holding elections and the dictator was the only person on the ballot.
Again, he loves Greg and doesn't think Greg is a dictator, that was my analogy to explain his feelings on the matter.
He is an avid fan, especially of the comics, but I can't convince him to drop by here ever. Oh well.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 3:43:31 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Ed: cool quiz-I hope more people fill it out this year than last time. I'll post my answers later. BTW, you seem to have mixed up #'s 10/15 and 19/20 in the B chategory.
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 3:09:48 pm EST from 64.148.37.75

Ed> I'll try the predictions in a little while when I set some time aside to think about it. I'm a little curious in a silly way; how did Greg only get 96% when he was the ONLY choice?! :P (Yeah, most likely people simply skipped that one, but it strikes me as funny it's not 100%)

Amp> I'm gonna say I don't think it's Lex's potential mate. A potential friend, sure. Maybe even something small, like the size of kid or a small dog. Maybe even something mechanical, but it feels too soon to get a definite appearance in regards to Lex's mate. But I could be wrong. This little mystery is up there, and I can't wait to see what Greg pulls off.
Asatira
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 2:57:16 pm EST from 97.82.58.208

GARGOYLES 2008 PREDICTION COMPETITION

Title-holder: VAEVICTIS ASMADI

Here we go! I've reworked it so the questions are less about trivia and more plot geared. Stuff that will make for interesting predictions, I hope. And there are more opportunities to earn points so hopefully we might get a wider spread of scores. Some answers are already known so everyone should score something!

To encourage people to make precise guesses, there are point penalties for incorrect guesses, but you can't get anything less than zero for a question. So if you score one point and one bonus point, but have five subtracted for incorrect answers, you'll end up with zero for that question, not -3.


SECTION A

1. HOW MANY present-day gargoyle clans will have a member appear in 2008's stories? (1 point)
BONUS POINT: +1 for each clan you name correctly, +2 for each as-yet unseen clan you name correctly, -1 for each you name incorrectly.
NB. Angela counts for the Manhattan Clan, not Avalon.

2. YES OR NO: Besides Arthur, will any other Arthurian character SPEAK during 2008's stories? (1 point)
BONUS POINTS: +1 for Merlin or Duval, +3 for any other correct guess, -1 for an incorrect guess

3. HOW MANY continents will be visited in the present day during 2008? (1 point)
BONUS POINT: +1 for each correctly identified continent, -1 for each incorrect guess

4. YES OR NO: Will any character appear in BOTH Gargoyles AND EITHER Bad Guys OR Pendragon during 2008? (1 point)
BONUS POINTS: +2 for each correctly named character, -1 for an incorrect guess
HINT: Arthur and Griff seem like sure bets to start with, unless you're not optimisitic to see 'Pendragon' this year.

5. YES OR NO: Excluding Macbeth, Dingo and Coldsteel, will a character with an explicit Shakespearean model be featured during 2008? (1 point)
BONUS POINTS: +3 for naming the character, -1 for an incorrect guess


SECTION B

6. Will we meet any new members of the Illuminati in 2008? (1 point)
7. Will an Illuminati member we presently know about change ranks during 2008? (1 point)
8. Will a new member of the Third Race appear? (It must be explicit that he/she is of the Third Race) (1 point)
9. After #9, will Thailog speak again this year? (1 point)
10. How many times will Shari say "the story is told -- though who can say if it be true"? (1 point)
11. In the present day, will Demona speak this year? (1 point)
12. Will a character die in the present day? (1 point)
13. Will Cagney appear this year? (1 point)
14. Is the story of Fox's shoes insignificant to the pursuit of the Rock? (1 point)
15. How many times will we see Brooklyn emerge from the Phoenix flame this year? (1 point)
16. Will someone say "Jalapeña" this year? (1 point)
17. Will Renard appear and speak this year? (1 point)
18. Will Dracon appear and speak this year? (1 point)
19. Will Wolf appear and speak this year? (1 point)
20. Will Puck appear and speak this year? (1 point)


SECTION C

With luck, if schedules hold and 'Pendragon' is green-lit, we will see twelve new issues released next year.

1) Name the characters on the cover of each issue. (+3 for each correct character, -1 for each incorrect answer)
2 & 3) Name the character who speaks the first line of each issue (or guess 'NEW CHARACTER' or 'NON-CHARACTER', such as the radio or TV). (1 point per correct guess)

a) BAD GUYS #2
b) GARGOYLES #8
c) BAD GUYS #3
d) GARGOYLES #9
e) BAD GUYS #4
f) GARGOYLES #10
g) BAD GUYS #5
h) GARGOYLES #11
i) BAD GUYS #6
j) GARGOYLES #12
k) PENDRAGON #1
l) GARGOYLES #13

(NB. A blanket guess -- e.g. Goliath for everything -- can still earn you points if you don't want to make individual guesses).



TIE BREAK:
How many times will the word "stone" appear in 2008?


And that's all folks. Good luck. (And Merry Christmas to those reading back through the archives in December. ;)).


***


My guesses:

A.
1. 6: Manhattan, Labyrinth, Ishimura, London, Loch Ness, Avalon
2. YES: Merlin, Kay, Ector, Pellinore
3. 5: North America, South America, Europe, Asia, Antarctica
4. Arthur, Griff, Castaway, Jason, Una, Leo, both unnamed gargoyles from #7, Talon, Maggie, Claw
5. YES: Banquo, Fleance

B.
6. No.
7. Yes.
8. Yes.
9. No.
10. No.
11. No.
12. No.
13. Yes.
14. No.
15. No.
16. No.
17. Yes.
18. No.
19. 8
20. 3

C.
1. a) Yama
b) Hudson
c) Hunter
d) Xanatos
e) Dingo
f) Brooklyn, Angela
g) Fang
h) Brooklyn, Katana, Goliath
i) Dingo, Matrix, Yama, Dingo, Fang
j) Goliath
k) Arthur, Griff
l) Goliath, Broadway, Angela, Brooklyn, Katana, Lexington, Hudson, Bronx, Elisa

2 & 3. a) Hunter, Hunter
b) Shari, Xanatos
c) Dingo, Dingo
d) Owen, NEW CHARACTER
e) Fang, NEW CHARACTER
f) NON-CHARACTER, Angela
g) NEW CHARACTER, Yama
h) NEW CHARACTER, NEW CHARACTER
i) NEW CHARACTER, Dingo
j) Goliath, NEW CHARACTER
k) NON-CHARACTER, Griff
l) Owen, Alex

TIE BREAK: 14
Ed Reynolds
"They keep saying that sea levels are rising an all this. It's nowt to do with the icebergs melting, it's because there's too many fish in it. Get rid of some of the fish and the water will drop. Simple. Basic science." -- Karl Pilkington
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 2:29:43 pm EST from 213.187.39.204

Re: Amp the kitten> I could see Greg doing this. He has revealed a lot of tidbits to us over the past decade, many that he probably now regrets. There are things we know are going to happen. If Greg were to just write those stories directly, we'd be satisfied, but maybe not excited since we already expected it. He has to tell it with a twist, in an unexpected way. So he throws out obvious hints and the occasional red herring to keep us guessing.

An obvious example is in "Invitation Only." We were expecting the Double Date story, so Greg included both Jason and Morgan to keep us on our toes.

I wonder if Greg lurks in the comment room and chuckles to himself while reading our speculations.
Phil - [p1anderson at go dot com]
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 1:31:00 pm EST from 134.215.196.82

11/13/2007
11:47-11:50pm GMT - Hudson and Lex encounter London Clan. Macbeth encounters Arthur.
(6:51pm EST) 11:51pm GMT -
(6:52pm EST) 11:52pm GMT -
(6:53pm EST) 11:53pm GMT -

11:54PM - 5:27AM GMT - Undocumented information not shown in comics #7-#9

11/14/1996
(12:28am EST) 5:28am GMT -
(12:33am EST) 5:33am GMT -
(12:37am EST) 5:37am GMT - I'll call you Amp.


Maybe if we think about the withheld information it'll help us uncover the mystery of what or who is Amp.
The Gargoyles Pulse
...updated Mondays afternoon/early evening
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 1:24:32 pm EST from 159.240.11.254

I think it's JK Rowling who said that if you want to write professionally, you need to start writing and accept that you'll write a lot of rubbish and generally emulate your favourite authors. I think this is true in the world of fanfic.

Wingless: It is a telling omission, even in light of the situation with Elisa. Hmm.

chris: Welcome aboard! :)

Youtube: In an ideal world, nobody would pirate the episodes and everyone would buy them. But personally, I'd much rather know people are at least WATCHING the show. If they're watching, we've already closed the gap to making them engaged fans. And frankly for people who just want to give the show a shot without hassle, the show is a great advert for itself. If people aren't at least intrigued by watching 10 minutes of "AWAKENING" PART ONE then it's probably not meant to be -- and it's much easier to send people a link than send them a DVD.

Cast Size: I admit the large size of the cast startled me at first. "Masque" particularly suffered in this respect: lots of plots inching along but nothing resolved, and not a great sense of momentum except for the last few pages. But "The Rock" handles this much better. I love that 'Gargoyles' is so lean and I'd rather have lots of stuff to speculate about than it be too sparse. 'Bad Guys' seems to have a smaller cast so far. 5 regulars and 2 major guests in #1.

bluewyvern: Wow, I can't believe that worked! Welcome back! :)

There were about 700 names on the Gargoyles Registry. I assume roughly 500 overlap with people who have atended recent Gatherings and/or frequented the CR, but I wonder how many people aren't accounted for? A project for another day perhaps.


Other matters...


THE GARGYS: 2007 AWARDS

In the category of BEST STORY, the Gargy goes to...
Clan-Building, Chapter Five: "Bash" (11 votes)

Runners up:
Clan-Building, Chapter Seven: "The Rock" (10 votes)
Clan-Building, Chapter Four: "Masque" (3 votes)
Clan-Building, Chapter Six: "Reunion" (1 vote)


In the category of BEST ART, the Gargy goes to...
Clan-Building, Chapter Five: "Bash" (17 votes)

Runners up:
Clan-Building, Chapter Seven: "The Rock" (7 votes)
Clan-Building, Chapter Six: "Reunion" (1 vote)


In the category of BEST WRITER, the Gargy goes to...
Greg Weisman (96% of the vote)


In the category of BEST ARTIST, the Gargy goes to...
Karine Charlebois (20 votes)

Runner-up:
David Hedgecock (5 votes)


In the category of BEST COLOR ARTIST, the Gargy goes to...
Stephanie Lostimolo (14 votes)

Runners up:
Robby Bevard (10 votes)
Dustin Evans (1 vote)


In the category of BEST COVER, the Gargy goes to...
GARGOYLES #5 (9 votes)

Runners up:
GARGOYLES #3 (8 votes)
GARGOYLES #7 (4 votes)
GARGOYLES #4 (2 votes)
GARGOYLES #6, GARGOYLES: BAD GUYS #1 (1 vote each)


In the category of BEST TITLE, the Gargy goes to...
"Masque" (10 votes)

Runners up:
"Invitation Only" (7 votes)
"The Rock" (5 votes)
"Bash" (2 votes)
"Strangers" (1 vote)


In the category of BEST LEAD CHARACTER, the Gargy goes to...
Goliath (10 votes)

Runners up:
Elisa Maza (6 votes)
Brooklyn (4 votes)
Lexington (3 votes)
Hudson, Matrix (1 vote each)


In the category of BEST ANTAGONIST, the Gargy goes to...
Thailog (17 votes)

Runners up:
David Xanatos (4 votes)
Illuminati Society (3 votes)
Tazmanian Tiger (1 votes)

Apologies for the non-inclusion of the Quarrymen in this category.


In the category of BEST NEW CHARACTER, the Gargy goes to...
Shari (23 votes)

Runners up:
Quincy Hemings, Tazmanian Tiger (1 vote each)


In the category of BEST ONGOING SUBPLOT, the Gargy goes to...
Brooklyn's jealousy of Broadway & Angela (7 votes)

Runners up:
Thailog's machinations (5 votes)
Goliath & Elisa's relationship (4 votes)
Xanatos' Illuminati assignment (4 votes)
The clones find their identity (3 votes)
Maggie's pregnancy (2 votes)


In the category of BEST MYSTERY, the Gargy goes to...
Who is Number One? (6 votes)

Runners up:
The withheld #7-9 timestamps (5 votes)
What seeds were sown in Tibet? (4 votes)
Fox's shoes (4 votes)
What is Xanatos' mission for the Illuminati? (3 votes)
The Illuminati number system (2 votes)
Mary and Finella cameo (1 vote)


In the category of BEST TWIST, the Gargy goes to...
Brentwood joins Thailog (9 votes)

Runners up:
Thailog is an Illuminati member (8 votes)
Shari is an Illuminati member (4 votes)
Maggie is pregnant (2 votes)
King Arthur and the London clan arrive (1 vote)
The White House Chief Steward is rank number 2 (1 vote)


In the category of BEST CLIFFHANGER, the Gargy goes to...
Thailog stabs Goliath (10 votes)

Runners up:
King Arthur and the London clan arrive (8 votes)
Xanatos summons Coldsteel (3 votes)
Shari and Thailog are Illuminati members (2 votes)
Thailog attacks the Labyrinth (1 vote)
Xanatos and Hemings exchange numbers (1 vote)


In the category of BEST NARRATIVE INNOVATION, the Gargy goes to...
Non-linear storytelling (14 votes)

Runners up
Shari's narrations (8 votes)
Song underlay (3 votes)


Thanks to everyone who voted!

Going to be busy next week, so I'm going to try and get the '08 prediction competition up sooner rather than later...
Ed Reynolds
"They say it all started out with a big bang. But, what I wonder is, was it a big bang or did it just seem big because there wasn't anything else drown it out at the time?" -- Karl Pilkington
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 1:06:08 pm EST from 213.187.39.204

I like the stray cat idea. very funny. and a nice twist. We're all discussing how Amp is a new gargoyle or Lex's future mate and all sorts of more complex ideas (like Fox's shoes), when all it could really be is a new kitten. Sometimes shoes are just shoes.

I know, I know "Why would they introduce it then?"
Maybe just to mess with us;)
chris
why do we build castles in the sky?
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 12:56:19 pm EST from 66.211.201.24

"'Lex's solo angst'? I have not seen any evidence he is angsty. Caretainly not anywhere near the level of Brook."

Yeah, you're right. I guess I meant that that is something I expect to see, once Lex is the only unmated one, even though we haven't seen it yet.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 11:47:25 am EST from 68.58.182.37

Matt> I too wonder if "Amp" for some longer or hard to pronounce name but the only thing that comes to mind is possibly Amphitryon. Which by the way was was the name of Hercules' mortal step-father in Greek mythology. Not sure if that's significant or not.

As for Amp being Lex's future mate, i think it's a bit to soon to jump to conclusions. We still have no idea who or what Amp is. For all we know, it could be a stray cat Lex decides to adopt.
Algernon
Normality is an illusory state, the only true constant is change.- Ralph Wiggum
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 11:47:06 am EST from 83.71.110.211

My bad. I was thinking they had hatched in 1988, not 1978. Well, we'll see.
Rebel
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 11:26:01 am EST from 24.227.200.138

Actually, in 1996 the youngest gargoyles in London would've hatched in 1978, making them 18 years old (equivalent to a 9 year old human). My first thought was that he was holding something up as well, but perhaps he is gliding, with Lex it is hard to tell, especially in a tight shot like that.

As for Amp him/her/itself, I tend to doubt it is his future mate also, but there are a couple story-related clues that point to it. The fact that this is Clan-Building is one and the fact that in the original development Lex was Amp is two. Thats admittedly not much to go on, but we'll see. We have SO little information at this point, after 8 and 9 come out, we'll be able to discuss this more in depth, if at that point it even needs discussing. After 8 and 9 it may be fairly obvious who/what Amp is.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 11:18:38 am EST from 24.207.163.239

True, he doesn't seem angsty right now. But, I bet once Brook returns, he will be. After all, the trio will have pretty much fallen apart, and almost everyone but Lex will be (more or less) happily mated. Lex feeling frustrated and alone *would* make for some good drama. I could see him feeling somewhat isolated, even with the clan all around him. Before #7, I had always assumed Lex would find his mate a few years down the road...maybe even *after* he goes into business. But then in #7 we get this Amp line...I guess I jumped to conclusions. Amp may very well not be his mate.

Now that I look back in that panel in the comic, it looks more like he's holding up a child or something. Maybe it's a young gargoyle? I guess the London clan's newest offspring would be about 8 or 9 now, 4ish biologically.
Rebel
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 10:53:30 am EST from 24.227.200.138

"Lex's solo angst"? I have not seen any evidence he is angsty. Caretainly not anywhere near the level of Brook.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 10:44:33 am EST from 24.207.163.239

Anonymous: I really liked that Amp/Lex dialogue. However, I feel compelled to point out that you got the time zones backwards- London is five or six hours ahead of New York, depending on Daylight Savings Time, so if it were midnight in New York, it'd be almost dawn in London.

It would be nice if Amp is Lex's mate, but it'll probably be a while before we get anything explicit. Aside from the fact that it won't be explicit in the comic anyway, Greg probably wants to keep Lex's solo angst going on for a while before giving him a mate. He'll be the only single left after Brooklyn, after all. And he doesn't know he's gay yet, so it may take a while.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 10:37:33 am EST from 68.58.182.37

The more of think of it, "Amp" is a great in-joke for the series, but the way Lex says it in "The Rock", I can't help feeling he is shortening it. A nickname. Like Lex is to Lexington like Amp is to...? Like some name the was too long or difficult for Lex to use on a regular basis, so he says "I'll call you Amp."
Just my thoughts...
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 10:24:45 am EST from 24.207.163.239

chris> Ah, I see. I don't frequent YT all that much, but I'm sure people that do could inform people on those threads that the episodes and comics are available. That should let tons more people know, and maybe give the numbers a good boost.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 9:46:05 am EST from 199.38.51.134

Personally, I like the whole bursting at the seems feel of the comic book. So many comics today suffer from the scourge of decompression where two or three issues worth of story get stretched and padded out to six or more to fit the trade paperbacks. I for one am glad to see that Greg is going against the grain in this respect.
Algernon
Normality is an illusory state, the only true constant is change.- Ralph Wiggum
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 9:27:00 am EST from 83.71.110.211

There's alot of discussion about the shows going on there, similar to in here. If someone were to remind the viewers on those discussion boards about other current events (I know there is some of that going on, but very very little), maybe some more interest could be sparked, I know it worked for me.

Actually the very first episodes are very poorly posted and scattered. When I tried to watch them my sister and I got so frustrated that we spent the rest of the day trying to find the first season DVD and bought it that day!- and I didn't even know if it was out on DVD or not, but took a chance. But I totally know what you're saying about the DVD sales being an issue.
chris
why do we build castles in the sky?
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 9:22:50 am EST from 66.211.201.24

chris> Not to worry. You don't ramble any more than some of the rest of us; you're definitely among friends here. ^..^

What're you suggesting we do on youtube, by the way? I think there are a few things already out there in addition to the episodes (the last Gathering radio play, for instance), but if we can do more there to raise awareness that the fanchise is continuing, it'd be a good idea to check it out.

I'm kinda ambivalent about having the episodes up there since what we really need is for people to purchase the early ones, but youtube is one of the few places people can watch the unavailable later ones.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 9:08:13 am EST from 199.38.51.134

sorry for the double post>
There's a whole new world of fandom waiting to be tapped into on youtube (that's how I got brought back!) midsummer someone put *nearly* all of the episodes online. I don't know how many times (and from so many different people) I read comments like "OMG! I loved this show!" or "Gargoyles totally rock!" or "I had forgotten about this show, but LOVED it!"
Just a thought.
chris
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 8:39:38 am EST from 66.211.201.24

bluewyvern> of course we can share:):):) I'm just glad to be here! I am very VERY new to the 'official' fandom, only learning about it a few months ago. But i always LOVED gargoyles back in the day and never forgot about them. part of me never being introduced to all of this (which i really regret) probably has to do with not having access to a computer until 2001 (>:o) and my mom making so much fun of me for watching the show (meanwhile she lets my youngest sisters- who are the age i was when the gargoyles came out- watch spongebob and that brand of garbage until their brains bleed out their ears). so i loved the clan in silence. I hope I've caught up enough on the general topics to not sound like a total newbie or idiot (but i don't feel like a newbie because i never stopped thinking about them- does that make sense?)

anyways. I hope I didn't ramble too much and am accepted into the community, even if I am new.

*hugs for all*
chris
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 8:32:45 am EST from 66.211.201.24

Welcome back, bluewyvern.

I think it's understandable that the first few issues of the comic after the remake of "The Journey" would be so crammed with characters. Remember that Greg Weisman had been unable to tell any actual stories involving the "Gargoyles" cast - at least, no full-scale stories - for about ten years, and was missing it. Now that he had the opportunity at last, it would be only human for him to yield to the temptation to bring back so many familiar faces from the series, to savor each one of them. After a few issues, he might tone it down.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 6:38:14 am EST from 4.244.210.89

bluewyvern> Welcome back!
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 12:50:08 am EST from 161.184.65.92

While I liked the larger cast presented in #3-#5, I hope that is not how all stories will be.

I would prefer stories that center around one or two main characters because the comic only comes out every two months.

So, to me, it would be better to have a story that shows a lot of development in a few characters, rather than a little development in a lot of characters.
Ntripy
"All things are true" "...though who can say if it be true"
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 12:30:34 am EST from 72.232.196.138

bluewyvern: Hi! I wasn't around back when you were, but it's nice to see some new (old) faces in here ;). Welcome back

Anonymous-Don't be shy, you can tell us who you are :) Nice take on "Amp"
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 12:18:40 am EST from 64.148.37.75

It certainly is a strength of the comic book over the tv series that the clan (and the character list in general) can afford to expand so much since voice actors do not need to be paid. Of course we lose the voices themselves which sucks, but I prefer to look at the bright side, and the bright side here is that we get stories like #3-5 that was CHOCK full of characters, so much so that the radio play cast for cast for those three issues was nearly equal to the audience.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 12:17:25 am EST from 24.207.163.239

Yeah, if Amp is Lex's future mate, I kinda hope that too. I'd love to have some fresh members in the Manhattan clan (well, we'll be getting that soon anyway with Brooklyn and co., but still). I wonder what Amp is going to look like? I have a weird feeling that he is going to look kinda canine-ish. Not sure why.
Rebel
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 12:07:16 am EST from 24.227.200.138

If Amp ends up being Lex's "special friend" I hope he comes and joins the Manhattan Clan. It'd be cool to have a London garg as a clan member and it'd fit in with the Clan-Building theme.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Fri, Jan 4, 2008 12:01:47 am EST from 24.207.163.239

Ed> "Does anyone know if, say, Desdemona, the Whiptails, Bud-Clare, Aris, Airwalker, Thaylog, Paul from UK Gargoyles, Queen Tanika, etc. are aware the comic exists?"

O.O

Wow...I've been popping in sporadically and lurking for the past couple of months after very (very, very) belatedly learning about the resurrection of the franchise through the DVD releases and comics. I was, needless to say, delighted and I've been trying to catch up (just finished #5, #6 is on my nightstand being saved by a supreme effort of will for tomorrow night, and #7 and Bad Guys #1 on order from SLG) so I could be current again and rejoin the conversation...rejoin the fandom. I did post once on Ask Greg, but I see that it's closed again now...

I was Queen Tanika, btw, and I'm shocked to be remembered after ten years. :) So no need to search me out, here I am, a bit late to the party but better now than never, eh?

Oh, and Chris: I used to use Titania and, gosh, I don't even remember -- Violet font, maybe? -- back in the old (old, old) days. But I wanted something different to go with my new name, so I hope you don't mind if I adopt Obsidiana too (always liked her), and some kind of blue font -- I'll see if Dusk Blue works for me. If we stick to different colors it's good, right? I don't want to be stepping on your toes. :)

I should be posting more substantially once I catch my breath (some fascinating topics going on here...I've been obsessing about the clan's eggs and children and mating cycles a lot recently too), but I wanted at least to shout out and let you all know that I'm back. It's a little strange after all this time, but this place was basically my first home on the web...and it still feels like home!
bluewyvern
posted @ Thu, Jan 3, 2008 11:34:06 pm EST from 69.112.108.43

good convo: Anonymous.took me a min to figure who AmpBrit was. though I wonder if Amp will be a she *shrugs*

Broadway: take a look at how he grabs Glasses by the face in Deadly force or how he beat the snot out of Jackal in Upgrade .
Starlioness
posted @ Thu, Jan 3, 2008 10:28:48 pm EST from 24.18.251.55

CyberLex958: Hey bud.
Ampybrit: Hey Lex, what's up?
CyberLex958: Not much here. Just got back from patrol. You just wake up?
Ampybrit: Yeah. Guess it's near midnight there, eh?
CyberLex958: Yeah.
Ampybrit: How was patrol? Did my fave hero of NYC have a good night?
CyberLex958: lol. Quiet night actually. I was out with Broadway and Angela, so you know how that goes.
Ampybrit: Feeling like the third wheel, huh?
CyberLex958: Little bit. I love them though. Broadway is my brother afterall, and Angie is great.
Ampybrit: You call her Angie?
CyberLex958: Not to anyone on this side of the Atlantic!
Ampybrit: Ha!
Ampybrit: Maybe I should come visit. I'd love to meet them and give you someone to chat with on patrol.
CyberLex958: Thanks, I'd like that... but how would you get here?
Ampybrit: Hey, old boy, these wings are not just for show, ya know.
CyberLex958: Don't try it, after the first dawn of your trip you'd end up at the bottom of the Atlantic. LOL. Maybe I should've called you Titanic!
Ampybrit: Very funny. Well, why don't you come back here? You are the one with the rich friends.
CyberLex958: I'd like that. The jetlag was terrible, but you are worth it. I hope I can see you soon.
Ampybrit: Me too. You are great.
Ampybrit: Hey, I must get going. I'm pulling a shift at our store tonight.
CyberLex958: : (
Ampybrit: Sorry, we'll talk soon. Call me before the sun rises there. We really can't afford to call Manhattan...
CyberLex958: I will Amp. I miss you. Tell the other I said hi.
Ampybrit: Will do. Have a good night, my crimefighting pal.
CyberLex958: You too. Bye.
Ampybrit: Bye.
Anonymous
posted @ Thu, Jan 3, 2008 10:16:15 pm EST from 70.230.189.125

Shuts up again
Wingless
posted @ Thu, Jan 3, 2008 9:28:51 pm EST from 99.245.254.123

I can imagine there would have been plenty of hissing and growling between Goliath and Demona as she spewed hate about Elisa and what a *fool* Goliath was. Brooklyn? I see her just laughing at him while he ranted.

Or just silence in general.
chris
posted @ Thu, Jan 3, 2008 7:34:24 pm EST from 66.211.201.24

If Something does happen to Angela and whoever is in involved is certainly gonna have a DEATH WITH with 3 Gargoyles after them, Goliath (see Hunters Moon), The Psycho mother Demona and Broadway and who knows what he's capable of doing. So it's like Angela's got 3 bodyguards even though Demona aint there 24/7
Vicky82 - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]
posted @ Thu, Jan 3, 2008 7:29:04 pm EST from 195.93.21.4

Greg B> "Lexington wasn't very talkative. I doubt Broadway has much to say to her. And Brooklyn? Forget it"

I don't know, I could definitely see Brook and Demona getting into a screaming match.
Algernon
Normality is an illusionary state, the only true constant is change.- Ralph Wiggum
posted @ Thu, Jan 3, 2008 7:18:58 pm EST from 83.71.110.211

I know they supposedly alternated nights, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone took Brooklyn's place now and again, seeing as how he hates her guts more than anyone else.
Rebel
posted @ Thu, Jan 3, 2008 7:18:35 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

Thanks for the Radio Play excerpt, Bishansky.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Thu, Jan 3, 2008 7:16:49 pm EST from 4.244.208.162

Brigadoon Traveller - <I contacted Dan Vado about the release date for this and he responded with this;
"A holiday shipping delay pushed this back to shipping on January 9." So it should hopefully be out next week.> Not that I don't trust slg, but http://www.diamondcomics.com/shipping/expected_010908.txt doesn't list the Gargoyles TPB. The absence of evidence is not evidence, but I have a tendacy to trust Diamond more than SLG.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Thu, Jan 3, 2008 7:15:57 pm EST from 98.20.210.219

Purplegoldfish: Well, what would Goliath have to say to her?

As for her taunting them? Maybe, but not her style. Fang on the other hand...

Elisa? Well, she has the excuse of having to work for a living. I don't think she was a guard.
Greg Bishansky
"On the seventh day the Lord rested, but before that he did, he squatted over the side of England and what came out of him... was Ireland. No offense son." - Bill "The Butcher" Cutting
posted @ Thu, Jan 3, 2008 7:14:14 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Greg- What about Goliath? ;)
I wonder if Demona taunted the others a lot while they guarded her. And I'm under the impression that Elisa wasn't one of her "guards"
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Thu, Jan 3, 2008 7:08:00 pm EST from 64.148.37.75

MATT> <<I was thinking today about Demona's imprisonment for several months in the Labyrinth and the oppurtunity it provided to talk to her without a battle raging. I mean, what did Brooklyn and Goliath and Hudson talk to her about? I wonder if it ever got lighthearted, an old joke from their days at the Castle or something. I also wonder if Elisa ever came down there and chatted, however briefly.>>

I think Angela is the only one who really got verbal. The rest, well, it was an uncomfortable situation at best. There is a scene that was cut for time from "The Reckoning" that was in the Radio Play script with Demona and Hudson. I'll post it here:

***

WEDNESDAY, JULY 17th, 1996 - IN THE LABYRINTH JAIL

Hudson guards Demona.

73. DEMONA

Hudson, you haven't said a word since you got here. Doesn't our past mean anything?

74. HUDSON

Aye. It means I have more sense than to talk to you.

Demona releases another mosquito.

75. DEMONA

You've cut me to the quick.

76. HUDSON

(slaps his neck) <small pain grunt and grumble>

***

Lexington wasn't very talkative. I doubt Broadway has much to say to her. And Brooklyn? Forget it.
Greg Bishansky
"On the seventh day the Lord rested, but before that he did, he squatted over the side of England and what came out of him... was Ireland. No offense son." - Bill "The Butcher" Cutting
posted @ Thu, Jan 3, 2008 6:53:39 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Ahh, Mary Sues. Part of the reason I don't read that many fanfics, and why I don't write them. Still, fanfics can be fun read if they're well written. Generally, I read fanfics if they've been suggested to me, which was the case with TGS. And it satisfied a need for the time.
Asatira
posted @ Thu, Jan 3, 2008 6:07:32 pm EST from 97.82.58.208

wingless> Goliath was also pretty hurt by Elisa at that time to, just having seen her with Jason. He might not have even wanted to think about her right then. But yes, blinded by his rage, which just kept spiraling. Nothing makes a great hero like his great flaws.
chris
~R
posted @ Thu, Jan 3, 2008 5:18:59 pm EST from 66.211.201.24

Having mentioned an alliance between Demona and Elisa - Thinking about Hunters moon, Goliath had a perfect opportunity when he and Demona were locked in the hunter's airship cell together to point out to her that Elisa had saved Angela with CPR, but in his angered state-all he said was "They nearly killed our daughter" in reference to the hunters. Another example of how our Garg heroes have their flaws.
Wingless
posted @ Thu, Jan 3, 2008 4:57:19 pm EST from 99.245.254.123

bob> Nope.
The Gargoyles Pulse
...updated Mondays afternoon/early evening
posted @ Thu, Jan 3, 2008 4:55:57 pm EST from 159.240.11.254

Funnily, one of the reasons I switched from Malibu was because I didn't want to be mistaken as male. Then I remembered too late that Bob there had Ophelia, too. Oh well. I like Ophelia: her design is at least a slight departure from the typical female gargoyle seen in the series.

Fanfic: I forgot to add that I too think fanfic can be a fun pastime (I'd better, because I write it!), and is a really interesting way to express one's love for a series; I left it out because I forgot that this isn't as self-evident as I like to dream it is.

I have lost my taste for really "developing" my own OCs, though I visually designed a few who weren't too Sue-ish. I think they *can* be done well, they're just not personally appealing to me anymore.
Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream" -- Shirley Jackson
posted @ Thu, Jan 3, 2008 4:43:48 pm EST from 216.36.154.204

so is bad guys or the trade collection coming out the 9th?
bob
"are ya mad these are your childern...no one harms my eggs"- Princess Katherine
posted @ Thu, Jan 3, 2008 3:02:34 pm EST from 66.202.98.33

Thanks for the suggestion Matt. I really likes Obsidiana too since she was the healer and an environmentalist. I always liked 'The Green.'
Just looked up the 'Mary Sue Litmus Test' HAHAHAHAHAHA. Yeah, I've seen way too many of those characters out there in fandom. I think I wrote those when I was like 10, of course, I was the exception to all the rules...;) HAHAHA (making fun of self and all others, no haters please)
May the gods help Angela if *that* terrible situation came up. Too much hatred being tossed between Elisa and Demona for much good to come of anything. Neither would trust the other for a moment and always be second guessing the other's motives. Someone else would have to be called in to save Angela- or maybe she can save herself. She may be fairly young and naive, but she's a tough cookie too. My favorite Angela moment was during Hunters Moon Part 3 when she swung an entire huge support beam into the hunters. Batter up?
chris
~R
posted @ Thu, Jan 3, 2008 1:09:16 pm EST from 66.211.201.24

Haha! Demona and Elisa having to work together to save Angela! That would be priceless.
Rebel
posted @ Thu, Jan 3, 2008 12:39:40 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

Demonskyre> I didn't even know what a "Mary Sue story" was when I read your post, so I looked it up on Wikipedia and read lots about fanfiction and Star Trek in general and then saw this: "The original "Mary Sue Litmus Test" was meant for those writing in the Gargoyles fandom, though it has since been almost endlessly adapted for other fandoms, becoming somewhat of a minor meme online."
Hey! Thats us! Cool.

As for Demona learning about Elisa's CPR save, I think Demona would just refuse to listen. "Hey Demona, the Hunters nearly killed Angela, but Elisa saved Angela's life using CPR." "What?! How dare she touch my daughter!" She won't hear the point, she'll only hear what she wants to hear.

I was thinking today about Demona's imprisonment for several months in the Labyrinth and the oppurtunity it provided to talk to her without a battle raging. I mean, what did Brooklyn and Goliath and Hudson talk to her about? I wonder if it ever got lighthearted, an old joke from their days at the Castle or something. I also wonder if Elisa ever came down there and chatted, however briefly.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Thu, Jan 3, 2008 11:52:13 am EST from 24.207.163.239

Demonskrye> I tend to think that if Demona did find out about Elisa saving Angela, it would in a rather warped way only intensify her hatred of the good Detective. A big part of the reason Demona hates Elisa is that she is living proof that humanity is not the ultimate embodiment of all evil, a belief which in my opinion is probably the only thing holding whats left of Demona's sanity together. I imagine her trying to concoct all kinds of sinister, ulterior motives to attribute to Elisa.
Algernon
Normality is an illusionary state, the only true constant is change.- Ralph Wiggum
posted @ Thu, Jan 3, 2008 11:39:47 am EST from 83.71.110.211

Fanfic> To reiterate, I do think that fanfic is generally a good way for writers to flex their creative muscles a bit and show their love for an existing property. But not everything that comes out of it is something I want to read. Also, I don't think that it's necessarily good for a person to devote all of his or her creative energies solely to writing fanfiction. Yes, I realize that it takes talent and creativitiy to write fanfiction, but there is a difference between writing a story using characters, settings, and concepts someone else already came up with and writing something of your own from the ground up (not the least of which is the writer's ability to own and profit from their original work). Fanfic is great, but if you really want to get serious about writing, it can't be your sole creative outlet.

Oh, and unless you've done an insanely good job with them, no one wants to read your Mary Sue stories.

Demona> I had forgt to mention that part of the reason that I believe that Demona is redeemable sometime way down the road is the look at her we got in Greg's story snippet "Hippolyta" (not yet canon and subject to change, I know). It seems that Demona may have had sincere hopes once that her clan - under Goliath's leadership - and the local humans could live together in harmony. It may well be that seeing how relations between the two species didn't improve when Goliath became leader was what pushed her towards deciding that her clan was better off rid of humans altogther.

As for whether Demona would work with the Manhattan clan towards a common goal such as helping Angela, I think we've pretty much seen that she would in "Hunter's Moon". I think she would have to feel that it was necessary, that temporarily working with Goliath and the clan was the only way to accomplish that goal, but if she felt that was the case, I don't think she would hesitate. A question with a less clear answer is whether she would ally herself with Elisa if, say, the entire clan including Angela was in trouble and only Elisa and Demona were capable of aiding them. Or, how would Demona react if Elisa were to save Angela, or if she ever found out that Elisa did just that during "Hunter's Moon"? (I'm guessing no one ever told her about that.) Would she be able to reconcile her hatred of humans with the fact that a humans she happens to despise more than most rescued the daughter she loves?
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Thu, Jan 3, 2008 11:19:41 am EST from 209.6.248.33

Nevermind, I found it and had seen it already. I thought you meant Greg B had made "Previously on Gargoyles..." segments as Ed had mentioned.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Thu, Jan 3, 2008 11:10:16 am EST from 24.207.163.239

Chris> Of the female avatars, I don't think Fox, Diane Maza, Maggie or Obsidiana are hardly ever used. Some of the other female characters are used occasionally as avatars, but not often. But please, no more Demona or Brooklyns. We already have like 30 people using those two.
Most people who have been in here 5+ years have had the same avatar, so the key is to pick someone (maybe someone no one usually uses) and make it your own.

Where is the link to Greg B's video?
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Thu, Jan 3, 2008 11:07:53 am EST from 24.207.163.239

Greg B> just saw your comic intro video on youtube. nice. very well done. just had to give you some props:)

I agree that Demona would really do just about anything to help her daughter, but find some way to twist it to try and convince Angela how whatever happened to her was all humanity's fault and sway her allegiances. Of course it wouldn't work, though.

p.s.- i want to pick an avatar for myself, but don't want to step on any toes. contrary to some belief, i'm a girl, any suggestions?
chris
~R
posted @ Thu, Jan 3, 2008 11:00:37 am EST from 66.211.201.24

Vicky> I think in those kind of circumstance, I could see Demona entering a temporary and uneasy alliance with Goliath for the sake of their daughter. This is sort of what they did in "Hunter's Moon". Considering Demona's track record though, any "help" she provides may just inadvertently make the situation worse. I'll say this much though, may God have mercy on Angela's hypothetical kidnappers cause Demona certainly won't.
Algernon
Normality is an illusionary state, the only true constant is change.- Ralph Wiggum
posted @ Thu, Jan 3, 2008 8:45:55 am EST from 83.71.110.211

Going back to Demona (I just thought of this) Do you think if something bad happens to Angela like for example kidnapped do you think Demona will help Goliath to find her.
Vicky82 - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]
posted @ Thu, Jan 3, 2008 5:39:33 am EST from 195.93.21.4

Mochi, Battle Beast> I agree.

*laughs @ the thought of that panel*
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Thu, Jan 3, 2008 5:06:34 am EST from 75.60.245.197

Interviews> Ed, you bring up a good point about where do we put them. Maybe just hosting them on the GargWiki page and directing people to them is proabably the only way? We could get SLG to post links on their blog.

I agree that Greg Weisman has been doing a LOT of interviews lately, about not only the comic but also his upcoming spiderman show. It would be interesting to hear from some of the others behind the book as well. I know Karine did an interview on Bad Guys (can't remember who by though), but I think with David Hedgecock being the main penciller on the main book, it would be good to ask him a few questions.

Gargoyles TPB> I contacted Dan Vado about the release date for this and he responded with this;
"A holiday shipping delay pushed this back to shipping on January 9."
So it should hopefully be out next week.
Brigadoon Traveller
posted @ Thu, Jan 3, 2008 4:51:14 am EST from 78.144.184.29

Wow... Macbeth taking a bathroom break... Genius... LOL...

That whole scene is going to make me laugh for a good while!
The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>^0^)> LOL...
posted @ Thu, Jan 3, 2008 2:41:47 am EST from 72.199.225.9

"BAthrrom Break" I would have DIED had this been in the book! What an (A?) hilarious pannel this would have made!
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Thu, Jan 3, 2008 1:31:44 am EST from 161.184.65.92

In regards to the facial hair talk, did anyone see the JLA Gargoyles parody? The Brooklyn character in that parody has a goatee, and it looks pretty cool.
Rebel
posted @ Thu, Jan 3, 2008 12:27:55 am EST from 24.227.200.138

Ozzie: I remember a great comment about how most sequels are just glorified fanfic. :D

Macbeth taking a whizz : classic :lol:

can see Thailog sporting facial hair may be a bit Xanatosian though.
Starlioness
posted @ Wed, Jan 2, 2008 11:38:08 pm EST from 24.18.251.55

While I agree with Siren about fanfics, I think alot of fanfic hatred is due to people who think their fanfic is a masterpeice and everyone should love it. That and fanfics people write where they have a shameless self insertion have a romance with a character they like.

Course something funny I commented on when talking to my local comic store owner. Is it just me or do alot of movies based off novels, comics, or video games just feel like a REALLY BAD fanfic put on a big screen?
Ozzie Arcane - [ozziearcane at yahoo dot com]
"Hello Booby! This is a trap!" - Eggplant Wizard
posted @ Wed, Jan 2, 2008 10:41:28 pm EST from 69.14.122.91

Matt> that is funny. Kinda got to wonder how much coffee he had that night. :p
Asatira
posted @ Wed, Jan 2, 2008 10:39:14 pm EST from 97.82.58.208

I got a kick out of Greg's response to my #7 review concerning Macbeth. I pulled out the comic and imagined it in there and laughed out loud. Great stuff, check it out.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Wed, Jan 2, 2008 9:10:16 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

As far as getting other fandom people into Gargoyles, you might want to recommend the show to Star Trek fans considering the voice actors. Then there are fans of The Batman and W.I.T.C.H. (Have to show them Bad Guys #1 for sure).
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Wed, Jan 2, 2008 9:06:45 pm EST from 71.115.192.199

Just read one of the latest Ask Greg questions (it's been updated, by the way).

"Anonymous writes...

1. Does Goliath's hair grow naturally spiky in front and long in back?
2. Does Goliath have facial hair and shave or is he naturally beardless?
3. Did you know that the Greeks wore their hair in a similar fashion as Goliath's hair. They would cut it short in front so that their enemies couldn't grab their hair while they were fighting but they let it grow long in back because they never planned on turning their back towards their enemy as that would mean they were running away.

____________________________
Greg responds...

1. I don't know.
2. I'm leaning toward the notion that he shaves, but I haven't decided.
3. I think I did know that, but I didn't direct Goliath's design in its current direction for that reason."


So Goliath might shave, eh? Neat. I'd have always thought he was naturally beardless, since it seemed unlikely he'd have been able to get access to a razor during the world tour. (It's very possible he's jerking this fan around, however...I think maybe he gets aggravated with these kinds of questions).
Rebel
posted @ Wed, Jan 2, 2008 8:37:58 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

BISHANSKY - I'm afraid you're right about TGS being dead. Though I remember that our initial assumption, when we began work on it, was that it would only last until "Gargoyles" has been officially brought back - which has happened.

It's a pity that your season finale story that you discussed here may never see the light of day, because it had a great outline - one which even managed to incorporate most of the television series' Rogues' Gallery (Xanatos, Demona, Thailog, Sevarius, the Pack, Dracon, Coyote, and the Illuminati) without appearing too crowded - and an entertaining use of Coyote, in particular. (All that I'll say about that one is that the Coyote robot in that story returned to his roots from "Leader of the Pack".)

I might as well share one idea I'd submitted to TGS that will probably never see the light of day now otherwise; my theory about why Oberon divorced Titania (or the catalyst for his divorcing and banishing her). There's a poem by Keats called "La Belle Dame Sans Merci" about a man who is seduced by a faerie lady who afterwards abandons him, leaving him to pine away in despair. I had an idea that: a) the lady in question was Titania (she said herself in "The Gathering Part One" that she found it difficult to stay interested in anyone other than Oberon for long, which was why she broke up with Renard), and b) Oberon found out about the incident and it was what led to his sentence upon her. (I don't know how many people here have read TGS's Pendragon Season Four, incidentally, but if you have - Titania's bereft ex-lover appeared in one of the episodes. I won't say which one, though; I'll let you figure it out.)
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Wed, Jan 2, 2008 7:13:22 pm EST from 4.245.18.108

Interesting quote from Greg I came across in the archives:
"...you could argue that MANY TGC episodes were inspired by my notes to the new
team, including the Proteus episode, the trial, the Illuminati , a Bronx
episode, a magical fantasy episode, etc. In a way, that made them even
more frustrating for me."
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Wed, Jan 2, 2008 6:43:56 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Happy New Year, everyone! And there's still time to vote in THE GARGY AWARDS if you haven't yet (http://www.misterpoll.com/polls/316961/results). I'll announce the awards formally after everyone's had a good chance to vote. If you want to spoil the surprise, though, the results are all listed.


DEMONA'S REDEMPTION: I think there's a difference between remorse and redemption. I can imagine in 2198 her showing remorse on some level -- perhaps remorse which feels permanent to her. But I can't see her ever backpeddling all the way. I wouldn't be too surprised if she died in the 2198 spin-off, just so we'd see spin-offs charting the beginning and end of her life. It would seem odd not to tell her last story, though I suppose it's unlikely we'll ever get that far.

Greg: The grand story of 'Gargoyles' is "really about" Demona? Did you just have a George Lucas moment? ;) I don't like this idea that it's about one person or the other. 'Gargoyles' we see through Goliath's eyes; 'Timedancer' through Brooklyn's etc., and we may look in on everyone else, some people more than others, but ultimately I don't think the tapestry can (or should) be boiled down to being 'about' one character.


TGS: TGS was far from perfect, but by the standards of these things, I think it was pretty impressive. It sustained a big, complex universe. And 'Gargoyles' had one leading light, a genius creator. TGS had scores, maybe hundreds, of people, working on different parts. Some of it worked, some of it didn't, but I found it enjoyable as a reader and great fun (and a great experience) for the relatively short period I was on as a writer. Something of this nature is never going to match the original, but it developed into its own creature, and I found particularly 'Pendragon' by Season 3 had become something really interesting in its own right -- I joined for that more than the attempts to reconstruct Greg's plans.

I do think it's a pity the project's being strung out. It needed to go out with dignity but I guess people tend to overreach. I'm pleased 'Pendragon' at least got a climactic finale.

FANFIC IN GENERAL: I love fanfic. There's good and bad fanfic, as with anything, but I think it's brilliant. I learned a lot from reading it, editing it and writing it, and from people responding to it. There's no reason to read it if you don't want.


COMICS: I've got to say, I've always found the Disney comic situation confusing. Comics are such a huge part of Disney, particularly in the duck universe and people like Carl Barks. I know at least for a while comics were published for Talespin, Chip 'N' Dale etc. I recall growing up there were a succession of weekly Disney comics. It seems weird that they own their own television network and yet when it comes to comics, they run these complicated lisence arrangements. Surely having a single Disney line would be much better in terms of sales, and more profitable to Disney? Oh well.

To us, it *doesn't matter* what the arrangements are. I mean, we can talk ourselves in circles with uninformed guesses, but if SLG do, at some point, decide to give the thing up, it will be completely and utterly out of our hands. The best, and only, way we can have an effect is to spread the word.


CLAN-BUILDING: Before the room wipe, I made a post about ways of promoting the comic. Thanks to Matt and Brigadoon Traveller for responding. I don't think the numbers are such that we should panic, but nonetheless, we have now a unique opportunity. A new comic. A new spin-off. More on the way. We know from experience of the DVDs that once you lose momentum, it becomes much harder to regain it. So I think clan-building should be a big theme for this year.


To summarise ideas we have so far:

1. A word of mouth campaign for #10. Agree one catchy slogan and make sigs, AIM icons, comiccon flyers etc. to really hype the arc.

2. Some kind of one-stop rundown for new fans who want some background but nothing as full as the wiki or GFW guides.

3. Youtube "Previously on Gargoyles..." videos for "Clan-Building" and "Redemption".

4. Interviews with the key people.


And I'll add two more:

5. Kind of obvious, but there are plenty of people who were big on the boards in the 90s who I haven't seen here for a while. Does anyone know if, say, Desdemona, the Whiptails, Bud-Clare, Aris, Airwalker, Thaylog, Paul from UK Gargoyles, Queen Tanika, etc. are aware the comic exists? Are we sure all the people on JEB's fan registry are aware of it? If not, does anyone still have contact details for them? This seems like perhaps the most important one because there are KNOWN fans.

6. Raise our profile with other fandoms. (Obviously by legitimate means, not just going round trolling boards). Have to think of how to work that. I was thinking some kind of site with an open letter to different (specific) fandoms, explaining what values Gargoyles and (x) share, a generalised introduction. Obviously Spidey fans will know Greg from SSM already. And Buffy fans might be interested to read his geekout character rundowns.


Brigadoon Traveller: I like your idea to get interviews, but the question is -- what would happen to them next? The ideal would be to get interviews on the big comic sites and to an extent Greg has been doing the rounds a lot of late.


On a separate note... a few years ago, Greg mentioned he'd written a novel (or was writing one, maybe). Does anyone remember what the last known status of that was?
Ed Reynolds
posted @ Wed, Jan 2, 2008 6:31:50 pm EST from 213.187.39.204

Thanks for the thumbs up to fanfiction, good and bad. It's just another way for people to express how much they like the characters and the world they are in. If you don't like it, you always have the choice to not read it. At least some people have the guts to put their work out there.
chris
~R
posted @ Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:27:56 pm EST from 66.211.201.24

Fanfic>I think one thing to remember when reading fanfic is that it was NEVER meant to be canon. That it was written in a way that to the author, they enjoy the most and then they share it with others, for the good or bad. Also, fanfic can be a retelling or readaptation of canon stories and characters. Its not very different from comic books when they reinvent them. The original Batman and the Batman today are very different characters. The one we have today is darker, sometimes more violent than the original Batman our grandparents may have read. Same with other characters like X-Men, Superman, etc. As they have taken on new writers, they have created new perspectives. Be it good or bad. Be it canon or not. There is some really well written fanfic out there that is stellar in how it is written, and yet it is totally so off canon, but its still enjoyable. And then there is the badly written fan fiction, but at least the author tried and probably had fun doing it too, so who's to knock them too badly? At least they started and finished something to their liking. I write quite a bit and some fan fiction and some I share and some I don't. The stuff I don't, it's usually because its a writing exercise to vent using characters and situations as my metaphors or it's because I think the story absolutely sucks and don't want to share it, lol.
Siren
Don't knock on Death's door. Ring his doorbell and run, he hates that.
posted @ Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:04:42 pm EST from 68.202.76.113

Oh. LOL. Well I've just ordered the DVDs so they aren't in yet. But thanks for clearing that up!
Rebel
posted @ Wed, Jan 2, 2008 4:16:49 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

Rebel> Check out the audio commentary on City of Stone part four on the DVD.
Greg Bishansky
"On the seventh day the Lord rested, but before that he did, he squatted over the side of England and what came out of him... was Ireland. No offense son." - Bill "The Butcher" Cutting
posted @ Wed, Jan 2, 2008 4:15:34 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Bishansky >

"As for Demona and Macbeth, it's a thought I had for a while, which was cemented when Greg says, in the commentary for "City of Stone" that he thinks Demona is a little in love with Macbeth there."

I decided to watch City of Stone again and also read Greg's commentaries. Can you clarify which of the four episodes Greg said this about? I've read all the commentaries and I can't find it, but maybe I'm missing something. (Then again, if he's gone through all the trouble to go back and edit that out, I think that only makes the possibility even greater...).

I'm guessing it's either when he first gives her her name or when she's spinning him around on the parapets.
Rebel
posted @ Wed, Jan 2, 2008 4:04:02 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

I also have a hard time seeing Macbeth and Demona as a couple... "But in a thousand years... who knows?"

As for excusing Demona's actions, which some fans have done. I can only say what I've always said, "When Demona wipes out humanity, I hope she starts with the Demona apologists."
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Wed, Jan 2, 2008 2:35:05 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

I could never picture Demona and MacBeth being together. If all the other things in their past wasn't bad enough, there is how Demona tricked him while she was in human form. She took advantage of his emotions and even if he ever forgave her, I don't think he'd be able to trust her. On a related note, it would be really ironic if Demona somehow fell in love with a human.

I agree that she shouldn't be compaired to The Joker. If you want to compare her to a Batman villain, Poison Ivy would be a better choice.
Ozzie Arcane - [ozziearcane at yahoo dot com]
"Hello Booby! This is a trap!" - Eggplant Wizard
posted @ Wed, Jan 2, 2008 2:06:18 pm EST from 69.14.122.91

(switching to Ophelia avvie because I'm liking her design more and more)

Wow, so many topics. It'll teach me to wait until I really feel I have something to contribute to post.

Demona: Fanfic's treatment of Demona sounds like a real horror story. I mostly agree with Greg B: Demona is a colossal screw-up (just the way I like it) and needs a lot longer to change than most give her. I can agree that she was in love with Macbeth when she was spinning him round on the parapet, but if someone would ever write the idea of Macbeth and Demona getting together after all that's happened between them, it would have to be done *really, really* well.

It's also unfortunate that fandom tries to excuse its villains in that way. It's like, fans can't love a character and then hate their deeds/attitudes, they have to make the character into someone they can feel totally comfortable with liking. I don't believe in that. Liking a fictional character isn't an ethical issue. With Demona, and similar characters I like who have performed horrible or merely stupid acts, I like them and hate what they do, thinking any redemption will never come or will take a long time. In most cases I feel redemption will/would have happened, but that the characters' actions wouldn't be magically erased.

TGS: Yeah...I poked at a few stories and they didn't ring right to me, and hearing accounts from other fans only makes me back away farther. I hope that Greg subverts a few factors that irritated me (even though it'll be an unintentional subversion because he doesn't read TGS)

Fanfic: I actually write some, but rarely read it anymore. It just no longer feels right to me, since I've got very anal-retentive ideas about what the characters sound like and do.
Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream" -- Shirley Jackson
posted @ Wed, Jan 2, 2008 1:53:00 pm EST from 216.36.154.204

Matt> I was just thinking that the concept of splinter clans forming when a clan grew too large for one location to support set s good precedent for egg donation as well. Great minds, and all that. I imagine it would be easier for a clan to part with an unhatched egg than an individual that other members of the clan may have attachments to. But there will probably be some individuals with the urge to travel who go to visit another clan,, like the area and the gargoyles there, possibly find a mate, and decide to stay. As was mentioned in regards to the eggs, this would take a lot more forethought and planning than it would have when the clans weren't so spread out. But it is still a possibility.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Wed, Jan 2, 2008 1:26:19 pm EST from 209.6.248.33

Thanks, Matt. ^..^
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Jan 2, 2008 1:19:52 pm EST from 199.38.51.134

I'm very sorry if I'm asking a redundant question here, or being random, but I want to write a letter to Disney to urge them to release Season2 Vol.2. Now I've tried Buena Vista Home Entertainment and Disney, and there is no address listed on the website, or contact phone numbers.
Has anyone else tried to write for this reason and knows an address? I'd appreciate any info!
Michelle - [mercatorblue at gmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Jan 2, 2008 12:58:20 pm EST from 24.44.149.65

Eggs> Right. Of the Clan's we have rough numbers of, at least, Manhattan Clan and Labyrinth Clan are in the roughest shape. They will both need additional members to survive, whether this is in the form of new members joining or egs being adopted by the clans (or even clones being made) we'll have to see. Greg has said that by 2188, we'll have twelve Clans and all are in pretty good shape. He said to get to that point, the more populous clans sent members to boost the numbers of smaller Clans, they may have sent eggs as well. I'd imagine that the Xanadu Clan contributed a lot of beasts and beast eggs to the cause. Really, in some ways this may be as advantageous for the larger clans as for the small. In ancient times full clans or larger would split to avoid overcrowding and resource issues, in modern times, this is probably much more risky, but having some of your members join smaller clans works just as well. The system works out so well that collectively the gargoyles are able to found two entirely new clans (Camelot Clan and Wyvern Clan) by 2188. And in 2198 they are ready to do it again. Eggs from all the clans will be brought and most were planned to remain at Queen Florence Island to be raised by gargoyles from around the world there forming the 13th Clan.

Time travel and cycles> Since gargoyle generations are seperated by 20 years, a 40 year journey from time has left him nearly exactly the same age as gargoyles around the world hatched in 1918. Katana's age when Brooklyn met her and how long she has traveled with him is unknown, so it is hard to speculate on that. As for the kids, Greg Weisman has confirmed that Nashville hatched in 1978, amazingly, when he returns to Manhattan, he will be the exact same age as his peers around the world that hatched in 1978. So really, he hatched exactly when he was supposed to, and had the exact same life length as other gargs hatched that year, but just spent that equal time in other time periods. Tachi will hatch in Manhattan in 1998, Greg has confirmed this as well. If Katana is young enough and the couple is both still alive and fertile in 2007 and decide to lay another egg, that egg will hatch with Artus in 2018. (And yes, I've thought about how cool it would be if that hatchling was female and grew to be Artus' mate. I've also thought those two, or Artus at least, would become a founding member of the new Wyvern Clan). But anyway, Nashville and Tachi will be almost perfectly in sync with their generational peers around the world, and Brooklyn and Katana will likely be also.

Basically, in 1998 Tachi and the Mayan Eggs (as well as eggs around the world) will hatch
Nashville and Bronx will be 20
Broadway, Angela, Lexington and Sora will be about 40
Goliath, Yama, Jade and Turquesa will be about 60
Zafiro, Obsidiana, Brooklyn (and possibly Katana) will be about 80
Una, Leo and Kai will be about 100
Hudson will be about 120
Griff will be about 44, but will probably adjust to synch with the 40 year olds.
Thailog will be about 3, but probably will be in sych with the 60 year olds.
Brentwood, Hollywood, Malibu, Burbank and Delilah will be about 2, but probably in in synch with the 60 year olds.

This is assuming they are all alive in 1998.

Demona will still be about 70, of course.

Artus and Brook and Katana's third (if there is one) would be hatched in 20 more years.
Gwenyvere will hatch in about 40 more years.
Lancelot will hatch in about 60 more years.
Samson, Delilah and Zafiro will hatch in about 160 more years.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Wed, Jan 2, 2008 12:51:41 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Just because Jon Canmore's descendants are still fighting the gargoyles does not mean that he himself can not see the error of his ways.
Michael Ejercito - [mejercit at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Jan 2, 2008 12:47:46 pm EST from 75.142.107.43

Algernon> *shrug* It could be. I'm very capable of being wrong. LOL
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Jan 2, 2008 12:07:07 pm EST from 199.38.51.134

Kerry> I thouhgt Greg said that Tachi will hatch in 1998, in which case she'll be perfectly in sync with all the other clans' eggs such as the mayan clan's.
Algernon
Normality is an illusionary state, the only true constant is change.- Ralph Wiggum
posted @ Wed, Jan 2, 2008 11:56:55 am EST from 83.71.110.211

Greg B> To be fair isn't TGS kind of superfluese no that we have the comic? Wasn't the point of TGS to act as a kind of nicotine patch for our "new Gargoyles stories" cravings?

Everybody Else> Sorry if some of my earlier post came off as a bit manically rant-like, i just got kind of worked up.
Algernon
Normality is an illusionary state, the only true constant is change.- Ralph Wiggum
posted @ Wed, Jan 2, 2008 11:52:51 am EST from 83.71.110.211

R> Tachi will hatch out of sync, but by the time she's mature, she'll be attuned to the present time's cycles, so she'll come into heat and lay eggs at the same time as the other females. Or at least I think that's how it will work, since Greg's said any gargoyles migrating from Avalon to the rest of the world would have to adjust as well.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Jan 2, 2008 11:39:11 am EST from 199.38.51.134

Chris > I think it will hatch at approximately the same time as other gargoyles around the world. Even if it doesn't, Tachi (the hatchling inside the egg) has about 40 or 50 years to get herself "aligned" with the cycle of the rest of the world's gargoyles. She won't have a problem.
Rebel
posted @ Wed, Jan 2, 2008 11:36:43 am EST from 24.227.200.138

Poor Obsidiana and Jade! they will surely have their work cut out for them! But will Brooklyn and Katana's egg hatch at the same time as others around the world. Time travel can upset nice balances like that if they did not return at the right time of the cycle, or am I just digging too deep? ;)
chris
~R
posted @ Wed, Jan 2, 2008 11:27:49 am EST from 66.211.201.24

TODD> <<BISHANSKY - I hope you don't get in trouble with the current TGS staff for mentioning those story plans, in case they still want to use them.>>

I thought about it, but, after talking to a friend of mine who is another former TGS Staffer (Robby), he said something to me I could not disagree with. Any fanfic series that does not get updated in at least two years is dead. D-E-A-D dead.

TGS has not published a story in one of its four series in over four years by now, and TGS: Gargoyles hasn't had a new story since before the 2001 Gathering.

I waited, and waited, and waited, and waited. Sorry, I feel no remorse or guilt. They (I think it's only one or two people there) can keep saying "it's coming" all they like, but I've sat on these story ideas of mine for years out of respect.

There is a statute of limitations on these things.
Greg Bishansky
"On the seventh day the Lord rested, but before that he did, he squatted over the side of England and what came out of him... was Ireland. No offense son." - Bill "The Butcher" Cutting
posted @ Wed, Jan 2, 2008 11:24:00 am EST from 67.87.175.245

R> Gargoyles do nurse their young, and there'd be no worries about eggs being the same age. It's a global biorhythm that governs mating and egg-laying, so all the eggs would be the same age anyway. As long as a clan had at least one egg-laying mother, there'd be a wet nurse. Though of course more would be better; I can't imagine a mother wanting to have to nurse *all* the clan's children by herself. >..<
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Jan 2, 2008 11:13:10 am EST from 199.38.51.134

I'm sure this was answered somewhere else along the line (and many times at that probably) but do gargoyles nurse hatchlings like a spiny ant-eater or platypus would? And if so, wouldn't there have to be 'wet-nurses' in the rookery when they hatch. This being, the eggs exchanged would have to be of the same age. I could be just crazy. :)
chris
~R
posted @ Wed, Jan 2, 2008 11:08:57 am EST from 66.211.201.24

Eggs> Well, yes. Where the Manhattan clan is concerned, it will be donations and not trades until it reaches a sustainable population size. They'd obviously need human help for transport, though, since the clans are so widely spread. At least it would be easier for gargoyle eggs than other species; daytime transport would virtually eliminate the risk of harm to the unborn hatchlings.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Jan 2, 2008 10:57:49 am EST from 199.38.51.134

Eggs> Ah, see, I hadn't remembered that the Mayan clan still had a full rookery of eggs. I keep forgetting how recently the clan - minus the four surviving pendant wearers - was slaughtered. Given that, I agree that it would probably be quite a while - if ever - before the Mayan clan was really in danger of having a generation of gargoyles with no unrelated pairs possible. So given the rough numbers of gargoyle clans that we currently know about in continuity (excluding clans like the Loch Ness clan who haven't yet been introduced and who we don't know rough number for), it does seem like the Manhattan Clan - with only Brooklyn and Katana and Broadway and Angela for breeding pairs, plus one human-gargoyle couple, one gay gargoyle, one senior, and one beast who's currently geographically separated from his mate - is most in danger of not having enough different bloodlines for population growth. So egg exchange in that case may be out, but I do think that it's still a viable option for the future. Since gargoyles tend to parent communally anyways, I could easily see them expanding that concept to sort of viewing all gargoyles as one big clan much as Goliath and company translate "protecting the castle" to a more applicable in modern times "protecting the community". So you could easily have clans that are doing well population-wise donating eggs to clans that aren't, or two clans doing equal exchanges of eggs in order to avoid entirely related generations in either clan.

I also agree that it's probably not going to be very common for any gargoyle couples to choose not to have an egg if they are able, especially given that the species is not exactly thriving right now. But "exceedingly unlikely" isn't the same as "impossible" and we do have to remember that these are individuals. It may be a slim chance, but I do think Brooklyn and Katana might possiblydecide not to have an egg for what they feel are good reasons.

Much as I hate to think about it, I do think that something happening to the egg before it can hatch is a possibility. The clan does have a lot of enemies right now (though not all of them would have an interest in stealing or destroying one of the clan's eggs) and we haven't had a major tragic loss in the story since the Magus. If we're going to believe that there are serious threats facing the gargoyles of the world - that there is in fact a war going on between pro-gargoyle and anti-gargoyle factions - that war if going to have to have a price. It's also entirely possible that the egg may not hatch for reasons that don't involve any intentional malice; the egg could just not be viable for some reason. I kind of doubt we're going to see any "butterfingers" accidents happening; that just strikes me as kind of silly.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Wed, Jan 2, 2008 10:42:47 am EST from 209.6.248.33

I tend to think that egg-swapping would be a great idea. However, I doubt the Manhattan clan would want to give up the one (or maybe it will be two?) eggs that will be in their rookery when Angela lays Artus. Angela will probably be very attached to it, since she is so concerned with her own parentage. I'm not sure about Katana's egg, but since she raised one son with just herself and her mate, it seems like she might be attached to this egg, too. I had these romantic ideas in my head that Brooklyn and Katana would have a third child, a daughter, and that she and Artus would grow up to be mates.

Anyway, back to egg swapping. It will obviously be a while before the Manhattan clan will have much to contribute. It seems likely that if this happens, the other clans will just give the Manhattan clan some extra eggs for a few generations. It kinda makes sense to divide the eggs out amongst all the clans equally, since that would be the safest way to protect the gargoyle population, though who knows if the bigger clans would be willing to give away so many eggs. Also, the Mayan clan's eggs will probably hatch sometime relatively soon. I doubt that any egg-swapping will be organized before their eggs hatch, so it will be a while before they can "contribute" much either.
Rebel
posted @ Wed, Jan 2, 2008 10:42:40 am EST from 24.227.200.138

Kerry- I like your idea of 'trading eggs.' It sounds fairly plausible. Since hatchlings are raised by the whole clan without concern of lineage, one egg may just equal one egg. Although, the Manhattan Clan is changing that idea within their own clan, so I don't know how comfortable they would be with that plan. Maybe it would work better with the Japanese/ Britain Clans. Diversify the gene pools.
chris
~R
posted @ Wed, Jan 2, 2008 10:24:49 am EST from 66.211.201.24

Hardwing> I didn't mean to imply that Demona is quite the inhuman monster* that the Joker is generally potrayed as. As for Vader, I personally think RoTJ was not his finest hour, he went from being a badass Dark Lord to being Palpatine's whipping boy.

I think there is a tendency in a lot of fandoms, not specifically Gargoyles, to try and whitewash the main villian and paint them as misunderstood. A better example of this might be Gul Dukat from DS9. there was and is a certin segment of trek fandom that tend to see Dukat as somesort of noble hero. Nevermind that he had the Bajorans raped and murdered on mass, nevermined that he essentialy sold the Alpha Quadrant to the Dominion, he had a charismatic smile and he loved his daughter so that makes it okay.

It's like we've got this rather juvinile concept, that just because a charachter dosn't sit atop a throne of skulls or occasionally shows genuine human emotion now and then they can't be "really bad". The truth of the matter is that Hitler really did love kids.
Algernon
Normality is an illusionary state, the only true constant is change.- Ralph Wiggum
posted @ Wed, Jan 2, 2008 10:16:54 am EST from 83.71.96.222

Demonskrye> Well, the Mayan clan had a lot of eggs left, so they aren't in as much trouble as if the four guardians were the only survivors. But the idea of giving or trading eggs between clans is an interesting one, and I think the practice would help the global gargoyle population. I wonder if it's ever been done before.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Jan 2, 2008 9:52:01 am EST from 199.38.51.134

Demonskyre> I think you gave a great summary of Demona and I generally share your thoughts on the matter. And like you and Greg B say, I think Angela will have an impact on Demona even after Angela is long dead, but I don't think she will be truly redeemed until after 2198. This is tragic, but tragedy is what Demona is all about, right? I like the idea of her taking two steps forward and one step back in her redemption.

As for Brook and Katana's third, from what Greg has told us, it would be exceedingly unlikely for two gargoyles to actively CHOOSE not to have an egg if they could, esspecially with not only their Clan, but the entire species so desperate for population growth. So I tend to think your options that one or both of the couple would simply refuse. I also tend to think that your Mayan Clan option is unlikely. The Pendent Wearers are gonna have their talons full as it is raising the 1998 clutch. I agree that the Mayan Clan will probably need some fresh blood, but perhaps not until that last clutch is reaching their own maturity, not to mention, by the time Katana would achieve her third egg (in 2007), I have my doubts that the Manhattan Clan is any larger than the Mayan Clan. The Manhattan Clan is probably more desperate for numbers at the time. Hell, the Mayan Clan may even send some of their brood to grow up with Tachi's generation to build up the Manhattan Clan and ease the burden in Guatemala.
I think one option that hasn't been widely considered is that Katana isn't able to have a third egg with Brooklyn. If she is one generation (20 years) older than Brooklyn, it is likely she is too old to concieve anymore. At her first oppurtunity, she may have been mateless. This would mean that when Brooklyn meets her, she is the same age, in relation to him, that Goliath would be, one generation older. I also think that one or both of the couple dying before 2007 is a big possibility, as is the possibility that Greg W has simply not decided or at least decided not to tell us about a third.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Wed, Jan 2, 2008 9:47:48 am EST from 24.207.163.239

Algernon>
No doubt Demona is a psycho(to what extend people can discuss), but comparing her with the Joker for once is problematic, since I never saw him(I don't read so many comics) have even the hint of (sane) love in any canon story. Vader did sacrifice and change in the end by protecting his son with his life, though people may say it was actually Anakin... he was tamed.

Jon Canmore is another person whose potential for a change in character is at last theoretically given as we know he loves his siblings(ok we know he actually never reformed since his descendance still fight gargoyles), but as by Demona we never had a real chance to see how it would have developed... well at last until the third "Bad Guy" comic is out.
Hardwing
posted @ Wed, Jan 2, 2008 9:19:54 am EST from 85.181.189.42

Fanfic> I'll admit that I haven't read a ton of fanfiction, but from when I have, I am able to enjoy stories with views of characters that don't necessarily agree with my own or even Greg Weisman's. I like reading fanfics that feel like they could easily be another episode of the series or issue of the comic without feeling out of place. But just because I know or believe that Angela and Broadway should be a couple, or that Lex is gay or or that gargoyle-human pairings are very rare or that Demona is a complex character who is not beyond redemption but will take a long time to get there, it doesn't mean that I can't enjoy stories where that's not the case. I'm sure their are authors who push a character too far and make them unrecognizable, but in most of the stories I've read, all I need to do s add an extra layer of suspension of disbelief. If I can believe that gargoyles exist and change from flesh to stone every dawn, I can usually believe that Angela ended up with Brooklyn and Lex is straight and gargoyles and humans get it on frequently and Demona reforms in Angela's lifetime. At least for the duration of that story.

Demona> I don't doubt that Demona is a difficult balance. Partly because her ideas are based on so many contradictions and lies she tells herself which don't make much sense when examined logically, I imagine it's very tempting to make her reform quickly or turn to being totally irredeemable rather than trying to sort out just how she lives with views that don't always work with her other views. I believe that Demona does want to destroy humanity because she has - as Goliath puts it - embraced the half truth that humans are totally without redeemable qualities. I also believe that she loves Angela as much as she is capable of. Even though I agree that Angela will probably not live to see her mother fully recognize the error of her ways (largely because of how Demona is described in the treatment for 2198), I do think Angela is going to have an influence on her mother that at least plants the seeds for her eventual reform. I don't think Demona's change of view is going to happen is an easily traceable straight line either. The only way her actions in "Hunter's Moon" make sense to me (because I think both she and the series are way too smart for a "my brilliant plan" speech) is if Demona wanted Goliath to stop her on some level. Why she wanted that I don't know. My best guess is that she is subconsciously aware that if she did in fact kill of of humanity, she would never be able to have a relationship with Angela. Is that a step forward? Maybe. But it doesn't mean Demona won't be taking two or more steps back before she makes any more progress. She's unlikely to admit to herself that she sabotaged her own scheme anytime soon and I don't doubt that she will keep trying to wipe out humanity, possibly even while suppressing that part of her that wants to fail in those attempts. Again, I think Angela will have an effect on Demona in her lifetime, but probably a subtle one. A possibility is that Demona may not directly try to kill Elisa any more. Not to say that she'd hold back if they were fighting or that she'd admit that she was doing it at all. But i could see her holding off on schemes that were centered on going after Elisa without ever admitting to herself that she was doing it or that it was because she knew Angela would never forgive her for killing Elisa. I could just as easily see her continuing to to plan attacks on Elisa, who - in Demona's twisted logic - had now "stolen" both Goliath and Angela from her. But again, I think Angela will have some part in Demona's eventual reform, even if she's not around to see it.

Brooklyn and Katana's Potential Third Child> This keeps coming up and I've been giving some thought to the possibilities, both what's been discussed and some other options:
- There is a third child, but Greg's keeping it a secret
- There is no third child because either Brooklyn or Katana or both are dead before they can conceive again.
- Brooklyn and Katana try to have a third child, but something happens and the egg doesn't hatch.
- Brooklyn and Katana jointly decide that they don't want to have a third child.
- One of the two is for some reason other than death, not capable of having a third child.
- Upon arriving in modern Manhattan, Katan is shocked by the anti-gargoyle sentiment and the secretive way the clan is forced to live. She decides that it would be irresponsible to bring another child into this environment and doesn't want to try for a third.
- Realizing (possibly along with other clans) that the Mayan clan only has two breeding pairs and cannot survive for many more generations without new bloodlines, Brooklyn and Katana send their egg to be raised by the Mayan clan in a gesture of goodwill.

Anything I missed?
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Wed, Jan 2, 2008 9:13:04 am EST from 209.6.248.33

Patrick> "It really bugs *me* when people proclaim Demona incapable of ever changing while at the same time not admitting that they're locked into a view of the character that's just as limited and two-dimensional as what they're accusing the "hug from Angela" fanfic authors of having"

I for one have never proclaimed Demona incapable of change, I just want to see it done in a way that is believable and not totally saccharine. Which is why I'm down with the proposed 2198 redemption arc because a) Greg will be doing it and I have absolute faith that he'll make it work and b) it takes place after Angela is long dead neatly sidestepping that particular fanfic cliche.

I think the problem here is that some fans are so wrapped up in their affection for the charachter that they fail to realise how truly messed-up in the head Demona really is. She has made repeated attempts to kill her only remaining family and shown absolutely zero remorse. Heck try re watching "Long Way to Morning" while reminding yourself that by Gargoyle standards Hudson is her father and you'll see just how low Demona has sunk.

Just ask yourself this, do you believe that John Castaway is capable of being redeemed by the "transforming power of a child's love"? If not, then why? He is for all intents and purposes a human version of Demona.

As for this idea that Demona must be "tamed" in order to be used in fanfic. Where is the logic in that? She is a villain, just use her as a villain. You wouldn't want to "tame" Darth Vader* or the the Joker, so why should you strip Demona of what makes her such a compelling character. Don't get me wrong I don't want to see Demona torturing puppies or any thing, I just want to see something consistent with her canon portrayal.

* Lucas tried this and see how that turned out, it's a wonder anybody still thinks Vader is cool.
Algernon
Normality is an illusionary state, the only true constant is change.- Ralph Wiggum
posted @ Wed, Jan 2, 2008 8:20:14 am EST from 83.71.96.222

BISHANSKY - I hope you don't get in trouble with the current TGS staff for mentioning those story plans, in case they still want to use them.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Wed, Jan 2, 2008 7:17:51 am EST from 4.244.210.6

Patrick: As far as I'm concerned people can have whatever views they want. It's in the constitution. That being said, I also have my views, and one of the things we do know about Demona's character is that she has a history of fucking up and hurting people. Been doing it for centuries. I doubt 1,000 years of hatred, denial, and projection will dry up from one hug. The last time we saw Demona in the cartoon, she was going forward with a pretty ambitious genocide plan. So I think there's still something she loves more than her daughter.

Greg B: Dude, if we ever saw that story... TGS Demona would gain +100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 CP. I'm in such a good mood right now, I'm even willing to overlook your signature (of course, another reason I'm overlooking it is because it's also true). ( ;
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Hopefully, we should appreciate that given points in time are not so significant as the nature of what is impressed on the mind, and how it is retained and used." -Yes ("Remembering High the Memory")
posted @ Wed, Jan 2, 2008 6:41:32 am EST from 71.62.198.251

Last week it was mentioned that the comic may be dipping in slaes and a couple of ideas to spread the word were brainstormed around the room. I liked some of the ideas, especially the previously on gargoyles segments. I think that would be an awesome idea to help new readers catch up to speed with what they need to know.

Another idea I was thinking about was maybe if s8 or the GargWiki did like a series of interviews with some of the artists and Greg Weisman. Have David Hedgecock one month, Karine another, Greg Guler the next etc (if they're free). I think interviews are a very good way to generate interest in the product, they can be circulated around the web and personally I would find it quite interesting to find a bit more about the background production of the comic. (A jar of cookies for anyone who can find out from Greg Guler if Katana has a beak or not!).

Maybe even expand the interviewees to include some of teh old cast and crew? I know Thom Adcox and Keth David turn up to most Gatherings, so some-one must have their contact details? How about Jonathan Frakes and Marina Sirtis? Cary Bates, Micheal Reeves. Just some few questions about their expereinces on the show, how they remembered it, and if they've been picking the comic (if not why not! ;)) and how they've been finding the story.

Just a couple of thoughts that have been bowling around in my head.
Brigadoon Traveller
posted @ Wed, Jan 2, 2008 5:38:49 am EST from 78.144.135.179

Yeah, I thought Greg might've said something like that at some point. But somehow I feel that in the end, the very end, Demona has to die, and a little before that Macbeth has to die. And I can't see them doing each other in, so I dunno. Is there a way to break the spell maybe, who knows?
The point is, I think for Demona to come full circle she has to become what she was back before she started playing with fire and getting pissy and craving power, back when she was a member of a gargoyle clan, protecting and serving and willing to give her life for that cause. And then for her to die as a true gargoyle and for that to be expressed by her clan giving her a Wind Ceremony, well, I can't help myself, I think that is just gorgeous.
And as for who is this story all about? Well, we know Goliath dies long before Demona, but both are part of the story. There are a lot of people that are part of the story. But I just love thinking of the last scene of Gargoyles (not that I want it to end, but as in most stories, the endings can be one of the best parts) being something like the year 2330 and a very ancient Demona is telling some hatchlings of her clan stories of their famous ancestors Hudson and Goliath and Samson and they love her tale and go run off to play as little warriors themselves and Demona watches them and smiles and closes her eyes and passes away. And there is a brief pause to black and then we see gargoyles from around the world and some humans and robots and other characters too standing on the cliffs of Wyvern Hill releasing her ashes into the wind and then we go to black and see "Written and Directed by Greg Weisman".

Thats my vision. : )
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 11:05:14 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Matt> Greg did say that the Weird Sisters can't undo the spell on Demona and Macbeth, and doubts anyone else can either.

http://s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=1890

So, I don't quite see that happening. But I like everything else you've said. Especially the Wing Ceremony.

Heh, in the end, it begs the question, who is this Universe, this grand story really about? Goliath or Demona?

As for Demona and Macbeth, it's a thought I had for a while, which was cemented when Greg says, in the commentary for "City of Stone" that he thinks Demona is a little in love with Macbeth there.
Greg Bishansky
"On the seventh day the Lord rested, but before that he did, he squatted over the side of England and what came out of him... was Ireland. No offense son." - Bill "The Butcher" Cutting
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 10:28:29 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Todd> "then we could have a face-off between two gargoyle beasts and two thylacines."
-That'd be cool, but honestly, as much as I love thylacines, I think Beasts could take 'em out pretty easy. Thylacines are generally thought to have been ambush predators, not designed for prolonged or heavy fighting. Beasts generally do. And speaking of TT's possible membership into the Ultra-Pack, I wonder if his upgrade will be a mutate-upgrade ala Wolf only incorporating thylacine DNA...

Rebel> "I have a serious fear Greg's gonna kill her off during 2198."
- I tend to think Demona will survive the series and end it redeemed. And I think Macbeth and her will be released from their link, Macbeth will die and Demona will live out the rest of her mortal days as a founding member of the Notre Dame Clan (and yeah, Greg B, I think I'm the first to think of that possibility), given her connections to Paris. I can't see her, no matter how redeemed, feeling comfortable living at Castle Wyvern again. That is my personal theory. I picture a Demona who doesn't even want to be the Clan Leader, she just wants to be a gargoyle again and get it right and be a protector until she dies. And being a protector until her death will finally help her see that she was wrong in "Reawakening" when she thought survival was all a gargoyle needs. It isn't enough. I think if Gargoyles 2198 (or hell, the whole franchise) ends with Demona's Wind Ceremony, it'd be a perfect ending.

Ntripy> Thanks for trying. I'm not sure if anything exists, so I was trying to find out.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 10:18:34 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Greg B> Also, early in that season, her human friend Andrea Calhoun, would have found out that not only was her dear friend Dominique a liar, lying about who and what she really is, but that Demona murdered her sister during "City of Stone". Which I think would have eventually happened anyway, since that little irony was introduced early on.

When exactly was the irony introduced? And how would she find out about Demona's activity?

> For crying out loud, Demona does NOT have a penis!

No, but should she attack Macbeth in that spot, I imagine she feels otherwise.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 10:11:37 pm EST from 71.115.192.199

"Thing is, if one of them turns out to be the one, truly the one, it's going to have to be someone truly special, someone who understands her better than anyone else ever possibly can. Who else would understand her loneliness and the sad, endless existence better than Macbeth? Well, maybe Duval... but I definitely don't see that happening. They both have a history, her connection to him is deeper than her connection to Goliath."

YEP! My thoughts exactly!

And as far as them sharing pleasure, (despite how well endowed Goliath is) the way I see it, this means that neither of them could ever find a better lover than the other. All the pleasure would probably be magnified. Anyway yeah Demona's my fave too.
Rebel
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 10:08:38 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

As one of the authors people might consider as misdrawning Demona, or making her too soft I can only defend myself by saying it is very hard to use her as character, while it is at the same time very tempting by the potential of background she offers. But Since she is, maybe more than any other villian, defined in her ultimate goal, you have to find ways to well "tame" her at last a bit so you can use her.

Now maybe the Angela theme plays a too large role in this process, but by the material given in the show she is the only person ever being able to make her change her ways at last a bit... And that is the point, fanfiction authors can only work with the given sources or expand it the way they think, believe it would or could have developed while forming their own stories.

The best example I have yet encountered is Delilah, in most fics she is kinda innocent, maybe even childlike, or mostly restricted through her programming and it seemed well based, given how she behaved in "The Reckoning", even "Invitation Only" seemed to follow this track by making her single linely responding to Goliath's offer as if she had no true free will... Yet her speech in "Bash" changed everything(at last for me), changing her from a rather weak character to a strong one who knows what she wants and is ready to make its stand.

Note: I know I'm too late.
Hardwing
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 10:06:05 pm EST from 85.182.1.182

Rebel> I really don't think it is. Greg has mentioned she'll have two more great loves, and he refuses to talk about either of them, I should know, I've been trying to get it for ten years now.

Thing is, if one of them turns out to be the one, truly the one, it's going to have to be someone truly special, someone who understands her better than anyone else ever possibly can. Who else would understand her loneliness and the sad, endless existence better than Macbeth? Well, maybe Duval... but I definitely don't see that happening. They both have a history, her connection to him is deeper than her connection to Goliath.

Goliath and Demona were not right for each other, and honestly, they never were. They fell in love young, and he didn't see the hints of her darker nature. Hudson saw them though.

Demona and Thailog, well... no sane individual would ever think that was right.

It would, in a way, be a double redemption story. Demona having her epiphany, and Macbeth getting over being suicidal. I don't see them becoming quite as important as you do, but who knows? In the end, I think they'll deserve a small measure of peace.

Of course, in Shakespeare's time, "to die" meant to have an orgasm... that would be an awkward way to be found later. And hey, didn't Greg say they share pleasure as well. ;)

Yes, Demona is my favorite character.
Greg Bishansky
"On the seventh day the Lord rested, but before that he did, he squatted over the side of England and what came out of him... was Ireland. No offense son." - Bill "The Butcher" Cutting
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 10:02:19 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Bishansky - LOL, I actually have thought the very same thing. I didn't mention it because I figured everyone would find it so outlandish.

I also think that post-2198 (way, WAY post...) both Demona and Macbeth could be important world leaders, in some capacity. It's so perfect. They're both immortal, they've both had plenty of opportunity to gain so much wisdom. Something like this would take really good advantage of these two characters. This is one of the reasons why I'm really, REALLY hoping Greg doesn't somehow kill Demona off (granted, Macbeth would have to kill her, but you know what I mean). A live and kicking repentant Demona is so much more useful, interesting, poignant and appropriate than a dead one.

<3 Demona
Rebel
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 9:51:24 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

Hey, I'm someone who thinks Macbeth will play a part in her epiphany, some time during 2198, and I think in the end those two will find love with each other. So, yeah, believe me, I think and know she can change. I just see tragedy playing a huge part in it.

So yeah, post-2198, I think Demona and Macbeth are that "one other gargoyle-human" couple that Greg mentioned. I just think it will be a while, and she has to walk through a very long fire of her own making until she gets there.

I also like that theory that she ends up somehow involved with the Notre Dame Clan of post 2198. I think it was Matt's.

She'll change, she'll find redemption. Just not any time soon. At least that's how I see it.
Greg Bishansky
"On the seventh day the Lord rested, but before that he did, he squatted over the side of England and what came out of him... was Ireland. No offense son." - Bill "The Butcher" Cutting
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 9:45:07 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

I enjoyed reading Gargoyles TGS but I felt Season 3 was a bit boring. I also loved reading The Barracuda fanfiction which continued from Gargoyles TGS season 2 but then the changes happened from the story Red Sands when Sata was changed to Katana ect so it got confusing so had to read it a few more times luckily i've caught up now.
Vicky82 - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 9:39:11 pm EST from 195.93.21.4

It really bugs *me* when people proclaim Demona incapable of ever changing while at the same time not admitting that they're locked into a view of the character that's just as limited and two-dimensional as what they're accusing the "hug from Angela" fanfic authors of having. :P
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"Look, you're British, so scale it down a bit." - Eddie Izzard
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 9:20:57 pm EST from 76.241.154.165

Matt> A search for just "Commitment Ceremony" only gives 8 results, none of them pertain to Broadway and Angela.

Are you sure Greg has revealed anything about that?
Ntripy
"All things are true" "...though who can say if it be true"
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 9:11:50 pm EST from 72.232.196.138

<<And it really bugs me when fanfic authors try to totally emasculate her>>

For crying out loud, Demona does NOT have a penis!

;)
Greg Bishansky
"On the seventh day the Lord rested, but before that he did, he squatted over the side of England and what came out of him... was Ireland. No offense son." - Bill "The Butcher" Cutting
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 9:07:57 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Greg B> "I had this big climatic scene in mind where Thailog grabs a human hostage and all but dares Demona to take a shot at him through the hostage, drop the pretense. Angela naively begins to declare her mother has changed, and before she even finishes the sentence, Demona fills the hostage full of holes just to get at Thailog"

If it were not prohibited by my religion, I would fall upon my knees and proclaim you my god.

P.S. Sorry about the double post.
Algernon
Normality is an illusionary state, the only true constant is change.- Ralph Wiggum
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 9:06:19 pm EST from 83.71.96.222

Patrick> Please understand that I'm in any way disparaging the dedicated fans who worked long and hard on TGS without asking anything in return. I must also reiterate that I only read season 1 and maybe a third of season 2 so I may be judging TGS. Just look at Star Trek: TNG, that show had to wait until it's third season before it got any good.

I also appreciate that it helped bring fans together and got them organised, which is vitally important in a relatively small fandom like ours. I also understand that most of it was written long before Greg gave us most of the "cannon in training" info we have now, so can't begrudge it for deviating from the "Master Plan" a little.

Apart from that I think that Gargoyles set such a high bar in terms of story telling that it was perhaps unfair of me to expect that same standard from fan fiction. Indeed the only fan fiction I read and enjoy regularly is G1 Transformers, mainly because the official fiction makes a lot of TF fanfic look like freaking Shakespeare by comparison.

That said I do feel that TGS seriously dropped the ball on a number of points, most notably it treatment of Demona. Look I love Demona, She's one of the most complex, fascinating, tragic and in a twisted way sympathetic characters in all of fiction. She is also a genocidal, psychotic, paranoid, hate-fueled, mass-murdering fanatic whose life long dream is to slaughter every man, woman and child upon the face of the earth and by God that's just the way I like her! And it really bugs me when fanfic authors try to totally emasculate her with lame ass redemption stories like a hug from Angela is really going to make her stop ramming her own life straight into the toilet.

The only real reason I'm okay with her proposed redemption arc in 2198 is because Greg will be doing it, so we already know it's going to be awesome. Again no offence is intended to anybody but that's just how I feel. Remember I love you all.
Algernon
Normality is an illusionary state, the only true constant is change.- Ralph Wiggum
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 8:58:48 pm EST from 83.71.96.222

REBEL> Well, we're still a long way away from 2198, assuming we ever get there.

As for how Greg handles it, I don't think Demona can or should reform in Angela's lifetime. It adds to the tragedy of who she is. In her war on humanity, she sacrifices the one good thing she really has. So, come 2198, as Greg said in the 2198 pitch, she has her last chance at redemption or her final chance to destroy humanity. I think her epiphany will be a hell of a lot more powerful if she realizes that if she hadn't been a colossally royal screw-up, she and her daughter could have had a real relationship. Is it sad? Yes. It's tragic, it's almost Shakespearean.

As for Demona in TGS, before I left, I began a story arc putting Demona back where I felt she should be. She was on her way to being the chief antagonist again, and that's what season four was going to do. I had this big climatic scene in mind where Thailog grabs a human hostage and all but dares Demona to take a shot at him through the hostage, drop the pretense. Angela naively begins to declare her mother has changed, and before she even finishes the sentence, Demona fills the hostage full of holes just to get at Thailog.

After Thailog is defeated, Angela is stunned, speechless, Goliath demands to know if that was necessary, and Demona makes this speech about how humans are complete and utter vermin.

Also, early in that season, her human friend Andrea Calhoun, would have found out that not only was her dear friend Dominique a liar, lying about who and what she really is, but that Demona murdered her sister during "City of Stone". Which I think would have eventually happened anyway, since that little irony was introduced early on, and "Gargoyles" has always been about actions having consequences. Later on in the fifth season (we were so ambitious), Demona would have brutally murdered her, which would have been a major screw up also, but that was part of a larger story, Angela would have later been mopping it up... literally.

I'm sure this would have been controversial, in the realm of fanfiction, Demona is often characterized in so many different ways, but in my humble opinion, this is who she is. She is her own worst enemy. She will always alienate and destroy what she loves, rather than own up to her own screw ups.
Greg Bishansky
"On the seventh day the Lord rested, but before that he did, he squatted over the side of England and what came out of him... was Ireland. No offense son." - Bill "The Butcher" Cutting
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 8:50:48 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

*more Bad Guys Spoilers*

I also wonder if the thylacines will upgraded as well. be it cybernetic,genetic,or have some type of armor..

*also dreams about what the Ulimate watch-dog Fu-dog would look like*
Starlioness
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 8:39:02 pm EST from 24.18.251.55

PURPLEGOLDFISH - The story you mention about Goliath being trapped in an alternate 10th century where the Wyvern Massacre never took place reminds me now of a "Batman: TAS" story where Bruce Wayne was trapped by the Mad Hatter in a dream where his parents were never murdered, so he never became Batman - but he becomes suspicious of what's going on when he discovers that all the books in this world are written in gibberish (due to reading and dreams coming from opposite sides of the brain). Since the person who came up with that TGS story also thought highly of the "Batman" story in question, it probably wasn't a coincidence.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 8:02:23 pm EST from 4.244.208.47

I thought Dark Ages was pretty kickass. I liked that Roland guy, and Asrial, and all the other really cool new characters that were introduced. Sorry if I spelled any of those wrong.

It's true that TGS did tame Demona down a little too much, but I actually think that Demona waiting until 2198 to make a turn-around is waiting a little too late. I'd love to see it happen sometime between when TGS made it happen (well...not sure if it ever completely did), and 2198.

Anyway, about that...I have a serious fear Greg's gonna kill her off during 2198. Far too many writers/creators have plots where a long-time villain "redeems" themselves, only to die shortly thereafter in some kind of awesome sacrifice. I really hope Greg doesn't do this with Demona, it's so cliched.
Rebel
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 7:55:46 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

Greg B: Cool, thanks!

TGS: Yeah Sata and the twins weren't my favorite characters (Though they had nice designs) But I really did like TGS as a whole-the stuff with the "evil fae" was cool-but it went on a little too long I think and the stuff with Demona and her cutesy little friend was kind of lame. My favorite story was the one where Goliath is trapped in that "what if" dream, and "Dark Ages" was fun.
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 7:43:52 pm EST from 64.148.37.75

Incidentally, I remember one Gargoyles fan's list of New Year's Resolutions for various "Gargoyles" characters - though I only remember two specific ones from memory:

PUCK: Do one trick a day.

OWEN: Stop Bronx from doing his one trick a day.

* BAD GUYS-RELATED SPOILER *

There's been speculation earlier that the Tazmanian Tiger could be the mystery member of the Ultra-Pack. If he joins up and brings Benjamin and Natasha with him, then that means that in the clan's first clash with the Ultra-Pack - which has to happen after Brooklyn's return from his Timedancing - then we could have a face-off between two gargoyle beasts and two thylacines.

* SPOILERS END *
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 7:42:54 pm EST from 4.244.208.47

Patrick> No argument on Point #2. As for Point #1, I didn't see anyone doing that.
Greg Bishansky
"On the seventh day the Lord rested, but before that he did, he squatted over the side of England and what came out of him... was Ireland. No offense son." - Bill "The Butcher" Cutting
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 7:42:33 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Two comments regarding TGS:

First, I think it's unfair to criticize fanfic for not doing things the same way Greg is doing them in the comic book. TGS never claimed to be canon or psychic, and some of the info gleaned from "Ask Greg" that those of us initially involved with TGS were working with HAS been refined and revised by Greg in the ensuing years.

Second, whatever you think of the quality of the stories, you can't deny that TGS played a part in keeping the fandom going. And it played a part in keeping The Gathering going in its first few years, too. Many of the same people that worked on TGS in the beginning also got involved in convention staff, and that can't just be coincidence.
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 7:33:24 pm EST from 76.241.154.165

Aw, maybe *one* (and I mean only one) scene involving Bronx and Fu-Dog wrestling through the castle would be nice. I know they're not 'dogs' per se, but as much as they are portrayed like them, just one act of innocent vandalism due to them playing would be cute and funny, no matter how 'well behaved' Fu-Dog may be.
chris
~R
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 7:28:22 pm EST from 66.211.201.24

I'm just glad Fu-Dog will be an adult gargoyle beast. TGS' Nudnik getting into Owen's underwear drawer wasn't funny the first time let alone the seventh time.

He stuck around with Brooklyn for a long time, I expect Fu-Dog will be a well behaved, yet fearsome, beast.
Greg Bishansky
"On the seventh day the Lord rested, but before that he did, he squatted over the side of England and what came out of him... was Ireland. No offense son." - Bill "The Butcher" Cutting
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 7:09:35 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

I'm looking forward to seeing what it'll be like with two gargoyle beasts in the clan. Let's hope that Bronx and Fu-Dog don't start playing "Rip the Rag" with the 12th century tapestries or digging up the indoor garden from "Possession".
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 7:06:06 pm EST from 4.244.208.47

Trust me, no offense taken.
Greg Bishansky
"On the seventh day the Lord rested, but before that he did, he squatted over the side of England and what came out of him... was Ireland. No offense son." - Bill "The Butcher" Cutting
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 6:57:15 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Greg B> I've been afraid of saying this cause I know a lot of people here worked long and hard on it but honestly, I think TGS as a whole was pretty dull and boring. Admittedly I gave up on it after the first "season and a half" so it might have got better after that. Again I mean absolutely zero offence to anyone here who put so much thought and effort into the project but after the clan invited Demona over for Christmas dinner I just had to get out.

P.S. Please don't hate me.
Algernon
Normality is an illusionary state, the only true constant is change.- Ralph Wiggum
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 6:54:34 pm EST from 83.71.96.222

Gargoyle genetics and heredity are so enigmatic that at his point anything is possible.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 6:46:26 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Bishansky - True. Perhaps I *am* slightly influenced by Arianna and Graeme (sp?). And I had never even considered the possibility of Katana being bald...that would be very interesting.

That reminds me. Do you guys think that bald gargoyles still have hair color genes? The way I see it, I'm thinking there's one set of several genes for determining hair color, and another set of genes for determining hair distribution. Thus, a bald gargoyle with genes for white hair, and a gargoyle with brown hair could have a white-haired offspring, with the genes coming from the bald parent. If this is the case, I wonder what color hair genes Broadway's mother had, even though she was bald? Thoughts?
Rebel
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 6:30:11 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

PGF> You're in!

<<I can't wait for the characters' reactions to older "Brooklyn and the new additions to the clan-I hope thats played up a bit. It will be kind of weird though-Brooklyn will be older and probably wiser than Goliath.>>

Older, sure. But I suspect he'll be a different kind of wise. We'll find out in a few months, I guess.

<<And I can't wait to see what Katana is like. I always thought the Sata from TGS was a bit too stiff.>>

As someone who was on the TGS Staff for eight years, I can honestly say that I did not like Sata at all. She was the dullest, and most boring character. I didn't like working with the character.

That being said, I can't wait to meet Katana. I'm expecting cool things there.

Rebel: <<I'm seriously hoping Nashville and Tachi don't *both* end up with black hair :(. It seems like there's a good chance they will>>

Why is there a good chance that *both* will? A good chance that one will, but why both? Just ignore Graeme and Ariana. Besides, we don't even know what Katana will look like yet, for all we know she could look more like Ophelia than Sora. For all we know, Katana could be bald.
Greg Bishansky
"On the seventh day the Lord rested, but before that he did, he squatted over the side of England and what came out of him... was Ireland. No offense son." - Bill "The Butcher" Cutting
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 6:19:28 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

* SPOILERS FOR #7*

In Geoffrey of Monmouth, King Arthur is referred to in a prophecy of Merlin's as "the Boar of Cornwall". Makes it appropriate that one of his gargoyle allies in London is modelled on a boar. (Yes, I'm being an Arthur-geek again.)

* SPOILERS END *
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 6:06:28 pm EST from 4.244.208.47

PGFish> Yeah, I believe that has to do with vandalism problems we had a while back. You basically need to get approved by Greg B or another admin. I'm sure he'll read this and go fix it for you soon.

Meanwhile, can anyone help me track down references in the archives of Ask Greg relating to Broadway and Angela have a Committment Ceremony or when they actually first mated? I try all sorts of searches and tend to get tons of the "Why Broadway and not Brooklyn?" type silliness.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 5:58:52 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

I'm seriously hoping Nashville and Tachi don't *both* end up with black hair :(. It seems like there's a good chance they will, since so many of the Japanese gargoyles do have black hair, so it seems like they stand a good chance of inheriting it from Katana. Meh. I just love Brooklyn's awesome white mane, I hope at least one of his kids gets it!
Rebel
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 5:56:26 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

I can't wait for the characters' reactions to older Brooklyn and the new additions to the clan-I hope thats played up a bit. It will be kind of weird though-Brooklyn will be older and probably wiser than Goliath. I wonder how much he will have changed. And I can't wait to see what Katana is like. I always thought the Sata from TGS was a bit too stiff.

Oh and for those who work with the gargwiki- I made an account but I'm locked out of editing anything-even talking in the community portal-is there something I have to do?
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 5:47:34 pm EST from 64.148.37.75

Just think in 6 -10 months we will finally know what Katana, Fu-dog and Nashville look like! I think it will be cool have another gargoyle beast in the clan, and even cooler to have some hatchlings in the clan.

Any word on a date for the TPB or Bad guys 2?
Brigaddon Traveller
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 5:19:16 pm EST from 78.148.70.210

It'll fun seeing Bronx's reaction to Fu-Dog. I hope you get some difference in personality there, not animosity or anything, just differences so it's not like you have two Bronx's now or something.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 5:05:09 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

more TD Humor: or what if Xanatos,Fox,Owen or even Elisa makes re-mark about cold medicine ala Vendettas.

Mateless Lex: not to mention Bronx has Boudicca on Avalon albeit a long-distance relationship.
Starlioness
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 3:50:10 pm EST from 24.18.251.55

*Algernon, not Rebel (though you had a fine post too, my friend)
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 3:27:37 pm EST from 70.162.221.121

five-minute-timedance-humor: LOL, on Lexington, Rebel. I could also see a gargoyle watching the entire thing and simply muttering, "That's it -- I'm off sugar."
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 3:26:24 pm EST from 70.162.221.121

I think post-Timedance, we'll start seeing a shift to Lex's perspective more often. After all, he'll be almost the only one without a mate. Goliath has Elisa, Broadway has Angela, Brooklyn has Katana...Hudson doesn't have anyone anymore but he DID. I'm interested in seeing how Brooklyn's return affects Lexington
Rebel
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 3:05:51 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

Matt> I think there's a lot of potential humor to be mined from post-timdance Brooklyn. I always thougt it would be funny if just before Brook was wisked off, Lex or sombody left the room for five minites to go to the bathroom or somthing, only to comback to the sight of a middle-aged Brooklyn with a wife and kids. Just imagine the look on his face.

It'll also be fun to see his interaction with his brothers and Angela now that he's essentialy an old married guy.
Algernon
Normality is an illusionary state, the only true constant is change.- Ralph Wiggum
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 2:44:26 pm EST from 83.71.96.222

In the interest of starting the first conversation of the year, my boyfriend and I watched "Leader of the Pack" and "Future Tense" yesterday. I started telling him all about the dream or prophecy stuff in Future Tense and had a cool thought relating to some of last weeks conversations.

What if Thailog WAS invloved in the Timecancer story coming up in 10-12. Wouldn't it be fun, after 12 issues of Thailog's scheming and giving the Clan trouble, Brooklyn returns from his 40 year trip, walks up to Thailog, says "I've been waiting a long time for this..." and punches Thailog in the jaw sending him reeling. Then someone can ask "What was THAT all about?" That would be another hilarious "Future Tense" echo moment.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 2:00:03 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

*happy new year dance*
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth-dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 12:57:33 pm EST from 24.98.74.35

Just stopping by to wish everybody a happy new year 2008. Man the 21st century isn't what I thought it would be, eight years in and I still don't have a robot butler or a flying car.
Algernon
Normality is an illusionary state, the only true constant is change.- Ralph Wiggum
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 12:41:13 pm EST from 83.71.96.222

Just stopping in to wish everyone a Happy New Year and for all the best to come in 2008.
Stephen R. Sobotka - [ssobotkajr at gmail dot com]
"You've got to remember that no one is the villain of their life. No one wakes up in the morning and says... "I'm a bad guy." Nobody."
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 10:45:36 am EST from 71.101.31.250

Happy New Year!

178 days left until The Gathering 2008 in Chicago, Illinois!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"No flag, no country. Those are the rules that I just made up." - Eddie Izzard
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 10:20:14 am EST from 76.205.74.241

Happy New Year, everyone! Let's make 2008 a great one.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 8:22:35 am EST from 4.244.213.138

To whom it may concern,
Namely: Todd Jensen and Matt, and Greg B.,

Ok, Im moving, spending sometime near STL then moving to LA, anything you 3 gys could offer would be awesome in the way of getting around etc... Id love to get some new friends in the fandom...


Happy New Year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Justin - [jlindley07 at gmail dot com]
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 5:18:37 am EST from 74.135.61.121

Here here Matt!!!

Erm to your previous response not just the most recent one lol.
Justin - [jlindley07 at gmail dot com]
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 4:31:27 am EST from 74.135.61.121

*Strolls into the CR a little tipsy*

Hey, this isn't my bedroom! Or is it? No.

Happy New Year and Goodnight!
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 4:08:43 am EST from 24.207.163.239

Happy New Year!!!!
Hakon - [makaveli-1 at myway dot com]
Makaveli
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 3:35:19 am EST from 71.239.146.247

Happy New Year's, everyone.

Here's to a unknown year of untold good things for the fandom and also for everyone here in general.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 2:35:22 am EST from 75.60.245.197

Happy New Year from Jurgan and me! *clinks glass* May you all have a wonderful 2008!
Yami Raven - [raven_mccloud2002 at yahoo dot com]
Zim: "You're nothing Earth boy! Go home and shave your giant head of smell with your bad self! Dib: Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said."
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 1:46:17 am EST from 68.58.182.37

*pops a cork off another champagne bottle, notes with dismay that it hits an oil lamp, but then breathes a sigh of relief when he sees the lamp fall into a box labeled 'The Goliath Chronicles'*

And nothing of value was lost.

Happy New Year, everyone!
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I'll prove I'm the goodguy, even if I have to smash this entire city and beat you to a mushy pulp!" -Coop ("Megas XLR")
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 1:10:54 am EST from 71.62.198.251

Happy New Year!
Asatira
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 1:09:23 am EST from 97.82.58.208

Well. it's officially 2008 in the CR (guess that means it's based in EST . . . I've always wondered on that but the numbers always confused me.)

Hope everyone's enjoying their evenings!
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 12:17:41 am EST from 70.162.221.121

*pulls out a glass of a non-alcoholic beverage*

Here's to a new year of driving the sane insane and making the insane feel sane.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Tue, Jan 1, 2008 12:15:53 am EST from 98.20.247.24

I am downing champaign and Scotch this fine evening, and with good company am spending New Years Eve with Bill "The Butcher" Cutting. Great movie.

Good food, good company, and good drinks!
Greg Bishansky
"On the seventh day the Lord rested, but before that he did, he squatted over the side of England and what came out of him... was Ireland. No offense son." - Bill "The Butcher" Cutting
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 11:10:53 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Ahhh, crap. *Year

(I wonder if pirates celebrate New Yar's instead? teehee)
Rebel
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 10:06:59 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

Well, my New Yar's plans fell through. Someone's mom is in the hospital now, so the friend I was gonna spend it (everyone else went to their hometowns for the Christmas holidays, but we stayed in our college's town to work) with is going to provide emotional support. I can't blame her. So, I think I'm taking myself to the local movie theater to see Juno. I've heard good things. Happy New Yar, everbody!
Rebel
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 10:06:13 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

*raises glass*

Here's to the fandom. Thanks for putting up with me.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I'll prove I'm the goodguy, even if I have to smash this entire city and beat you to a mushy pulp!" -Coop ("Megas XLR")
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 9:35:19 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

Hear, hear! To a good year coming to an end, and an equally good year to begin! *toasts her glass and downs it*

Proper new year's welcome from me in a few hours. In the meantime *hands out noisemakers and poppers*
Asatira
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 9:31:40 pm EST from 97.82.58.208

Let the new year be as great as the old one... from old europe!
Hardwing
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 9:09:37 pm EST from 85.182.15.220

Happy New Year. Hope 2008 (1997 for the Gargoyle Universe) works out for all of you.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 9:09:22 pm EST from 71.115.192.199

For a wonderful year as a Garg fan, Hear Hear!! (clinks glass)
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 8:50:46 pm EST from 70.162.221.121

*Clinks glass* Hear hear!
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 8:38:49 pm EST from 69.183.162.111

Here, here (or is it, "Hear, hear"? Oh well)! Great toast, Matt! *drinks her champagne and enjoys the little fizzies in it*
Rebel
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 8:37:49 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

*Walks in carrying a huge crate filled with champagne and sparkling grape juice bottles and sets it on the recently uprighted cookie table. Starts unloading the bottles and pouring drinks. Passes them out to everyone."

I'd like to make a toast:

*Raises glass*

A farewell to 2007, for Gargoyles it marked the beginning of our Second Golden Age, with new canon stories, the first spin-off and a thriving fandom and Gathering. And to 2008, a year that promises us even more. More stories, more spin-offs, more expansion of the Gargoyles Universe and the GargWiki, more growth of the fandom... But most of all, let us toast this Comment Room and all of us who helped bring Gargoyles through the darker years into this great time to be a Gargoyles fan. And esspecially to Greg Weisman, our friend, our entertainer, and our leader, who lets us all look into his amazing world.

*Clinks glasses, downs my drink and proceeds on my way to getting a little tipsy.*
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 8:20:48 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Queen Mab & Oberon: He overthrew her, so their relationship is already interesting when she'll eventually appear in the comic. My only hope is that we'll see the two interact when she does make her debut.

New Year's Eve: Being in Arizona, I'm going to be in 2007 longer than most on this rock (if that makes any sense at all). Sure, the West Coast folk and the Pacific Islands beat me out, but hey . . .

Garg-wiki -- I just started getting a feel of the wiki, and -- if I can manage some free time this break -- I hope to be of some help there too. Guess that's a New Year's Resolution of sorts, huh?

(Goes to bake more cookies for the coming Celebrations . . . silly Harvestor ;P )
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 8:16:11 pm EST from 70.162.221.121

I wonder if Mab has any followers running around loose in the world or even beyond. If so, what had they been doing?
Michael Ejercito - [mejercit at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 7:49:04 pm EST from 75.142.107.43

Happy New year everyone its 2008 here now and your still in 2007 lol
Vicky82 - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 7:18:57 pm EST from 195.93.21.4

Greg Weisman once said that Oberon didn't change over the course of those thousand years because he didn't think that he needed to change - after all, he was the one who banished the Third Race from the outside world to learn humility, so why should he have to learn any lessons?

I'd like to apologize for my remark this morning, incidentally; I don't like it when other people's posts get that panicky about the comic's future, so I shouldn't be making those kinds of posts either.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 7:15:23 pm EST from 4.245.21.250

You can have your fun... but DON'T knock OVER the COOKIE TABLE!!!

Hmmph...

If anything holds true in the Gargoyles Universe than Vinnie Grigori is Illuminati #1... and I'm only half kidding.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 7:09:39 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

*runs in wearing a board that says "THE END IS NEAR"*

It's all over! The comic is DOOOOOOOOOMED!

*starts doing the doom dance*

Doomy doom-doom-doom-doom!

Octavio: He's violating his own law by being #1. Which... he makes the laws, so he can break them. But I have to agree that he probably wouldn't give a shit. He's already lord over something.


And the non-interference rule is pretty generous, if one thinks about it. It's the only thing preventing the Third Race from making all mortals their bitches.

*in the course of doing the doom dance, knocks over the cookie table*

The cookies are DOOOOOOOOOMED!

I don't know, maybe this too melodramatic.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I'll prove I'm the goodguy, even if I have to smash this entire city and beat you to a mushy pulp!" -Coop ("Megas XLR")
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 6:47:09 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

bob> Assuming you mean a text novel (as opposed to a graphic novel, which would be along the lines of the collected trade paperback), I'd say the chances are probably a little less if anything. Greg is pretty committed to telling the "Gargoyles" story in comic book format right now. With both the main story and many of the spin-offs coming out as comics, it wouldn't make a lot of sense to do a novel. The comic is still in its early stages and still needs to get more readers. It would probably hurt the property at this point to say "Well, you can't get the whole new story just by reading the comic; you also have to go and get the novel". If Disney approached Greg and said that they wanted him to write a "Gargoyles" novel, he might well say yes. But given their recent attitude towards the property,I doubt that's going to happen.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 6:30:48 pm EST from 209.6.248.33

does anyone know if and when amazon.com is getting the rest of the comics.
Also now that comics are being made is this going to increase the chance of Gargoyles being a novel cause that would rock!
bob
bob
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 4:27:21 pm EST from 66.202.98.44

PGFish> Yes, you should. The more the merrier (and the less I feel obligated to do).
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 3:42:47 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Great job, Matt. I was just looking at the Wiki and there were some great voices on that show. I don't think anyone will disagree with me there.
Octavio Valentine
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 3:40:12 pm EST from 159.240.11.254

Matt: heh well, you're bound to forget some stuff- Here's another one- Princess Katharine is mentioned in "Sanctuary" and "The Reckoning"
Geeze I should just join the wiki :P
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 3:39:45 pm EST from 69.183.162.111

PGFish> Yes, almost completely from memory... and thanks so much, now I have to go add that stuff. *Sigh*
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 3:32:27 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

*Crawls his way into the Comment Room.*

I'm sick of Gargoyles for the rest of the year. All the work on the Wiki today burned me out.

Greg B> "We don't know how much Greg and the artists are being paid."
Uh, I know I do at least. Greg W told me/us at this past Gathering. I'm serious.

*Limps out of the Room, taking a cookie off the table on the way*
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 3:31:38 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Matt-nice job with all the character appearances on Gargwiki! Are you doing it all from memory? Just a couple things I noticed that you didn't have: The Archmage is mentioned in "The eye of the storm", and Morgan appears in "The Gathering Pt. 1"
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 3:27:49 pm EST from 69.183.162.111

***
No new Gargoyles comics this week or next. Oh well, maybe the following week!
***
Octavio Valentine
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 3:25:11 pm EST from 159.240.11.254

For the consumer, it's a $1.00 cheaper. :P
Octavio Valentine
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 3:04:28 pm EST from 159.240.11.254

Oh, and something I've been meaning to ask, but I kept forgetting. I know it's much, much cheaper to do comics in black and white than in color, but what about spot color?
Rebel
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 2:41:51 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

I'm hoping that it will. Won't Bad Guys #2 also be out sometime very soon?
Rebel
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 2:40:57 pm EST from 24.227.200.138

Gotcha!

So...who's thinks that the TPB will be out next week!?!!
Octavio Valentine
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 2:33:26 pm EST from 159.240.11.254

Octavio> Well, it's a hypothetical. But there is a key difference between speculating about what will happen next in the comic, and speculating about the business decisions of others.

Honestly, I just don't like to assume when it comes to real things. I'll estimate with facts, but we have none other than those numbers Ed posted, which don't mean a whole lot.

Much as I love Stephen Colbert, I live by facts, not truthiness.
Greg Bishansky
"It used to be, everyone was entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts. But that's not the case anymore. Facts matter not at all. Perception is everything. It's certainty. People love the President because he's certain of his choices as a leader, even if the facts that back him up don't seem to exist. It's the fact that he's certain that is very appealing to a certain section of the country. I really feel a dichotomy in the American populace. What is important? What you want to be true, or what is true?…" -Stephen Colbert
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 2:22:39 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

This whole Illuminati numbers thing reminds me:

Number 2: Where am I?
Number 2: In the Village.
Prisoner: What do you want?
Number 2: Information.
Prisoner: Whose side are you on?
Number 2: That would be telling. We want information..information..information.
Prisoner: You won't get it!
Number 2: By hook or by crook we will.
Prisoner: Who are you?
Number 2: The new Number 2.
Prisoner: Who is Number 1?
Number 2: You are Number 6.
Prisoner: I AM NOT A NUBMER, I AM A FREE MAN!

I can just see Goliath somehow in that position-except he'd be tearing up a few things in the process. ^_^
Wingless
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 2:15:35 pm EST from 99.245.254.123

Greg> On topic of renewal, I was looking to discuss just like we discuss Gargoyles and the comics. Nobody knows what's going to happen in #8 or #9, maybe some know better than others, but that is why is CR is so crucial for those like me who have never been to a Gathering and aren't privy to information like some.

No one knows what's going to happen in #8 or #9 except Greg Weisman, but we can guess. I was just asking if one had to guess, what would one guess the likely hood of renewal. That's all. Like if I asked, "What is the likely hood of me getting lucky tonight?" No one really knows but me, and even I don't know for sure, but sometimes it's fun to guess. Just like we guess what's in store in the future of the comic, based on some known facts and the past.

(On a scale of 1 to 10, my likely hood is probably around 2 or 3.)
Octavio Valentine
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 2:13:09 pm EST from 159.240.11.254

Keep in mind, Oberon is also the one who created the non interference rule, because Mab probably let them all run amok. He was also the one who wanted Titania and the Children to learn humility. *He* divorced her. Her arrogance and disdain for humans was once that great. But, like Titania later said, he did not learn his own lesson.

All that being said, I don't think Oberon is the asshole that everyone seems to make him out to be. Oh yes, he is arrogant as all hell, yes we haven't seen him in his best moments, but I think that come Queen Mab, we're all going to take another look at him.

Oh, and I don't think he's Number One. Why would he have any interest in leading the Illuminati?

Greg Weisman dying> I'm not touching this one with a fifty foot clown pole.

Octavio> <<I'm confused. By that logic, are you saying that we shouldn't discuss what we do not know for certain?>>

Honestly, in a case like this, you're just shooting in the dark. If Greg or Vado felt like commenting, sure. But the fact of the matter is that we are not privy to what's going on behind the scenes. So asking anyone here to rate on a scale of one to ten what the chances are of the book being renewed don't make sense.

We don't know how much the license costs. We don't know how much Greg and the artists are being paid. We don't know how much it costs to print, and frankly, it's not really our business.

We discuss and theorize things about "Gargoyles" all the time, but this is more akin to discussing what President Bush had for breakfast this morning. Only George, Laura, Dick and Quincy know.

Ultimately, the call is Vado's, and we aren't privy to what he's thinking because none of us are mind readers.
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 2:04:08 pm EST from 67.87.175.245

Wingless> "You figure if he actually did spend his time among humans he'd understand them better."

This is Oberon we're talking about.

Mister "I am Lord of the land of Avalon" Oberon. The only thing about him higher then his probable age is his arrogance.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 1:42:14 pm EST from 75.60.245.197

Part of me thinks Oberon is #1. I know some would disagree.
Octavio Valentine
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 1:36:05 pm EST from 159.240.11.254

A better discussion-Not sure if anyone has ever asked. Oberon said he spent his time among the humans. Do we know in what capacity he did so? What roles he played? What possible things were changed in the world because of him being there(despite the No touchy rule for the third race when it comes to human affairs).

You figure if he actually did spend his time among humans he'd understand them better. Anyway...

Something to think about.

Happy Gnu Year
Wingless
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 1:32:27 pm EST from 99.245.254.123

What a cheery discussion for the last day of the year.

179 days left until The Gathering 2008 in Chicago, Illinois!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"No flag, no country. Those are the rules that I just made up." - Eddie Izzard
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 1:24:47 pm EST from 76.205.74.241

I agree with Matt about Greg W.

On topic, didn't Greg say something about a book pertaining to the Gargoyles universe? I'm not exactly sure, but I want to say I recall him saying he'd like to get it published someday.

Or am I wrong? Like I said, I'm not entirely sure on this; I'm just taking a stab in the dark.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 1:24:31 pm EST from 75.60.245.197

Greg> "I honestly don't think we should be determining what the chances of the comic being renewed are or aren't.

I don't know, you don't know. No one else in this room knows."

I'm confused. By that logic, are you saying that we shouldn't discuss what we do not know for certain?
Octavio Valentine
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 1:24:21 pm EST from 159.240.11.254

It's creepy thinking about Greg W dying. I mean that sucks, of course, but looking at it in terms of "Gargoyles", what would happen to the series?
This may not be a very tactful topic, but it is interesting.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 12:57:58 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

I'd say I hope that Greg Weisman has this all written down so if he isn't able to finish the series before he dies one day, fans can still know what happened.

But alas, I know, Greg Weisman is immortal. So if the comic book gets canceled and no other options arise, we will never know ;)
Siren
Don't knock on Death's door. Ring his doorbell and run, he hates that.
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 12:49:25 pm EST from 70.154.233.121

Renewal> I see it happening, honestly.

The sales have been good (every comic shop I've talked to have been constantly sold out the last few issues), I've heard good reviews that should make Disney and SLG happy, and aforementioned comic shops always seem in an air of excitement when we talk about the comics.

So, I have a good feeling that the comics will be renewed.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 12:44:20 pm EST from 75.60.245.197

Octavio> We are not in the room, we are not negotiating business deals for this thing. I honestly don't think we should be determining what the chances of the comic being renewed are or aren't.

I don't know, you don't know. No one else in this room knows.
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 10:48:44 am EST from 67.87.175.245

Rebel> No, he won't. For all Greg knows, another opportunity to tell these stories might one day come up.
Greg Bishansky
"Hey, it's that kid who reminds me of my lost youth and innocense. If I kill him I bet I can symbolically kill my own fear and vulnerability. Man, that's deep. Oh, no! It backfired! Now I'm more emo than ever, CRAP!"
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 10:47:05 am EST from 67.87.175.245

The last update Greg gave on the renewal was in March;

" On top of this, Dan Vado has stated that he has every intention of picking up the Gargoyles' license when it comes up for renewal.

I don't want to get complacent, but really this is all good news. It looks like we should be around for a while. "

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=505

Since there have been no more updates, I would think that means nothing has changed and Dan Vado still intends on renewing the license. I see no reason to worry until someone informed states otherwise.
Ntripy
"All things are true" "though who can say if it be true"
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 10:24:41 am EST from 72.232.196.138

If the comics don't get renewed, do you think Greg will be willing to tell us what else happens that we haven't gotten to? I hope he does.
Rebel
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 10:24:10 am EST from 24.227.200.138

Typically, when do contracts get renewed? I'm more curious, than worried.

I do admit that I'm slightly worried, but I know there isn't much we can do about it except what was said by Matt.

On a scale from 1 to 10 where 1 is not likely at all and 10 is definite, where would we place the renewal of the Gargoyles license?

Before today I'd say 7, but after Matt and Todd's post, it feels more like 5.
Octavio Valentine
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 10:10:09 am EST from 159.240.11.254

Is there ANY doubt? Sure. The contract hasn't been renewed yet, so it is possible it could not be renewed. However, we have a lot of reason to think it will be renewed.

The main point is this: Don't worry about that, there isn't much we can do about it. All we can do is support Gargoyles and Bad Guys as best we can and SPREAD THE WORD as much as we can. If we do that well, it'll be renewed, if not, it probably won't.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 9:53:57 am EST from 24.207.163.239

Is there doubt it won't get renewed? When will we find out if it does?
Octavio Valentine
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 8:45:39 am EST from 159.240.11.254

It's not a new year yet, not until tomorrow. This is still New Year's Eve. (Over in Scotland, they call it Hogmanay, and it's said that it's good luck to have the first person cross the threshold then be tall and dark. Goliath would qualify for that - but I doubt that too many Scottish villagers would have been keen on him showing up on their doorsteps!)

I hope that the comic does get renewed - but even if it doesn't, at least we'll have had twelve issues, that would give us some idea as to what Season Three would have been like if Greg Weisman had remained in charge.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 8:42:56 am EST from 4.244.209.94

11th! And Happy New Year! May this new one bring us more fun with Gargoyles, the Redemption Squad, and timedancing!
Jack-Pumpkinhead - [jtjgundam at hotmail dot com]
"Lord, what fools these mortals be."
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 8:30:37 am EST from 192.195.66.47

10th
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 5:20:00 am EST from 98.20.247.24

Mochi> You too.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 5:06:38 am EST from 75.60.245.197

9th!!

Happy New Year (this is just in case I don't make it back in time to the CR)!!! (>^^)>
The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>T.T)> Need more eggnog...
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 4:33:36 am EST from 72.199.225.9

Eighth!
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 3:40:18 am EST from 70.162.221.121

7th.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 1:49:43 am EST from 75.60.245.197

Probably my last post of the year (I'm working tomorrow) and I'm sixth!
Spen
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 1:17:26 am EST from 66.43.205.110

5th!!!!!!!!!!!!
Justin - [jlindley07 at gmail dot com]
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 1:04:32 am EST from 74.135.61.121

Nevermind, working now...

4TH!!!
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 12:43:58 am EST from 24.207.163.239

Am I the only one having a problem with the Comment Room?
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!" -Macbeth, "City of Stone"
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 12:43:36 am EST from 24.207.163.239

3rd
Ntripy
"All things are true" "though who can say if it be true"
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 12:33:03 am EST from 72.232.196.138

Second!
Purplegoldfish - [Skydragonn at aol dot com]
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 12:09:17 am EST from 69.183.162.111

First on the Thirty-First of December 2007!
Octavio Valentine
posted @ Mon, Dec 31, 2007 12:00:06 am EST from 70.15.84.29