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Gargoyles

The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending November 3, 2008

Index : Show Images

lonerider26> I wonder if it'll also be this slow on Tuesday.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

Brook: It's ALWAYS this quiet on Sundays....
lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari

BROOK> Tuesday is election day.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Thirteenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"A good story should provoke discussion, debate, argument...and the occasional bar fight." ~ J. Michael Straczynski

I hope it's so quiet in here because everybodys out to vote?? :D
Brook

Demonskrye> First episode I saw was "Avalon". So... make of that what you will.
Supermorff

Algernon> I'm no expert but I think it may not be quite as simple as making sure the tapes are numbered. There are the examples that Todd and I mentioned, where production delays caused an episode to miss its expected air date, forcing the network to either go ahead and air the next episode at the expense of the storyline ("X-Men") or rerun the existing episodes and run the risk of viewers flipping channels and forgetting to come back when the new episodes start up again ("Gargoyles"). Tapes may be numbered, or they may have the episodes production number on them instead. And since episodes are often produced out of order and at multiple studios, these numbers may be no help at all. Additionally, a whole lot of people - from the creators of the show all the way down the chain to the guy who's actually responsible for broadcasting the episodes - all need to understand that this particular show has to be aired in a certain order. If the shows goes to syndication, that's an extra group of people who need to get this idea.

Speaking of which, does anyone remember if Disney Afternoon kept airing "Gargoyles" in order on the second go-around for season two? I remember being surprised and disappointed to see "Vendettas" for a second time (particularly since my sister and I were trying to show our dad what a good series "Gargoyles" was at the time and we knew that that ep wasn't going to convince him), but I can't recall if I was surprised because they were airing the episodes out of order or because I didn't remember what order the episodes aired in.

Aside from the potential problems of airing episodes in order through numerous reruns, there's the big question of whether a series which require episodes be seen in a particular order for continuity and story understandability is too much of a gamble. The benefit of continuity is that it rewards loyal viewers and gives them an extra reason to keep tuning in each week. The downside is that new viewers coming in partway through may feel - justifiably or not - that they've already missed way too much and they'll never be able to catch up enough to even understand what's going on, so there's no point in even trying to get into the show. I think that's the main reason why studios and networks get scared of continuity heavy series and part of why the "tiers and tentpoles" idea was suggested. If a new viewer came in during one particular "tier," that viewer could at least have a chance of picking up on some sort of status quo in the series without feeling like every single episode was just building on something that came before.

Obviously I do like the idea of continuity in a TV series, but at the same time, I think the concern that it might scare off potential new viewers may have some merit. I don't know if I would have become as much of a "Gargoyles" fan as I am if I had seen my first episode midway through season two or picked up the first issue of the SLG comic instead of catching most of "Awakening, Part Two" and getting on board almost at the beginning.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

ALGERNON - I think it might have something to do with cases where a certain episode isn't ready yet. For example, "Enter Macbeth" was delayed because of animation problems (which was why they had to re-air "Awakening" for the five weeks between "Deadly Force" and "Enter Macbeth").
Todd Jensen

Demonskrye> "I know that the whole "tiers and tentpoles" idea fell apart pretty early on. My point is not that the idea was followed through on or even that it was a good idea; it's that even as relatively recently as when "Gargoyles" was in production, you still had people at studios and networks who were very nervous about the idea of a series that had to be viewed in order to make sense. (I wonder if these people were haunted by the spectre of the FOX "X-Men" cartoon in which - due to an episode not being completed in time, audiences witnessed the team rebuilding the Xavier Institute for the Gifted without having been shown that the school had been destroyed.)"

You know I have never understood why the networks always recoil in horror at the thought of actually airing episodes of a show in proper order, I mean they number the tapes don't they?

Algernon
"Jack, I'm only an elected official! I can't make decisions by myself!" -Mayor of Halloween Town

ALSO: Brooklyn was able to read when he arrived in modern day NY, right?

Hudson and Broadway were the only ones illiterate in the clan by that time, innit?

Brook

Demonskrye: Thank you. :) Exactly the term I looked for. :)

I just watched "LEader of the Pack", and was struck by how wise and intelligent Brooklyn tries to get Lex attention back on the situation.

Also, I dunno if anybody realised this, but after TEMPTATION, Brooklyn seems to sort oft have lost his faith in humankind. In the future EPs, all his remarks towards humans are of cynical nature, and reflect a soul tired of being acused of being a "monster".

Rewatching these Episodes, there is so much more than meets the eye... :)

Brook

Greg B> I know that the whole "tiers and tentpoles" idea fell apart pretty early on. My point is not that the idea was followed through on or even that it was a good idea; it's that even as relatively recently as when "Gargoyles" was in production, you still had people at studios and networks who were very nervous about the idea of a series that had to be viewed in order to make sense. (I wonder if these people were haunted by the spectre of the FOX "X-Men" cartoon in which - due to an episode not being completed in time, audiences witnessed the team rebuilding the Xavier Institute for the Gifted without having been shown that the school had been destroyed.)

I really don't dispute much of what you say about Star Trek, but I still think there's a place for the plain, vanilla shows of the world. I love "Gargoyles" and I like series like it which feature continuing stories and strong character development, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy shows that don't employ these devices. Sometimes I'm in the mood for "Gargoyles" or "Avatar," sometimes I'm more up for one of the "Batman" series where I can get more of a stand-alone story. And sometimes, I'm gonna want to watch "Spongebob Squarepants." Bear in mind also that "City on the Edge of Forever" is from the original Trek, which suggests to me that TV was still a pretty long way out from having heroes - or even secondary or tertiary "good guys" who could be more nuanced or do outright bad things. From what I heard, Roddenberry was extremely devoted to the idea that humanity would have improved itself by the future and conquered many of the problems that plagued the present day. It may have been somewhat naive and it didn't always work, but that was Roddenberry's vision. And if the Enterpeise is a microcosm of future human society, then you aren't going to have crewmen killing one another, even if it is more realistic. I sympathize with Ellison having to pull punches, but I can also see why Roddenberry would reject or alter a story that didn't fit with his view of the series. Vanilla though it may be, Trek's idea than mankind will actually better itself in the future rather than making a colossal mess of things actually seems pretty rare these days and it may have been so when the original series came out to. Trek did manage to tackle some pretty heavy issues for its time, so it seems like the complaint is less that Trek didn't push the envelope than that it could have pushed it more, which may not be entirely fair for a TV series from many decades ago.

Brooklyn is Deep> I think to say that Broadway is a "deeper" character than his brothers or anyone else may be using the wrong word. It sort of unintentionally implies that everyone else is shallow and of course that isn't the case. All three of the Trio are capable of being deep, intelligent, brave, or any number of other positive things. If I say that Broadway is sensitive, it doesn't imply that either Brooklyn or Lexington aren't. Any one of them can be sensitive to the actions and needs of another . Broadway is just more defined by his sensitivity and concern about others than his brothers are, for good or for ill. His sensitive side helped him to become attuned to Angela's individual likes and dislikes before his brothers did and is a big part of the reason that they're together. But it's also part of the reason he's not the second in command. During "Upgrade," he was so completely focused on the captured members of his clan and whether they were all right that he couldn't focus on the battle at hand. Lex, of course, was too distracted by his hatred of the Pack to be rational. Brooklyn was the only one who could view the situation objectively enough to formulate a plan of attack that worked. It doesn't mean that he didn't care about the Pack's hostages; he just wasn't crippled by his concern for them. Broadway isn't any better or worse an individual han either of his brothers; he's just different, with his own set of strengths and weaknesses.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Just me with the monthly link drop! Remember to head over and vote for last month's topic, which was Focus on the Faes! Very heavy lean towards Puck art this month, but nothing wrong with that! And a few other faces peek in as well, so go vote, if you aren't sick of that phrase already. *L*
November's topic is Stone Sleep, and I'm curious to see how the artists choose to work with that. ^_^
OK, that's my bit for the month, have fun! *waves*

kess - [< Updated for November]

A lill fun thing:

Broadway: Romeo (naive/romantic, yet also deep and emotional)

Brooklyn: Hamlet (intelligent and melancholic, yet driven to desperate acts by great desperation)

Lexington: Not decided yet... :S

Brook

Ergh, that was me...
Brook

Guys, we arent discussing the Agela/Broadway/Brooklyn thing here.

I think you're really just judging on very superficial things, i.e. Angelas conception of Broadway and Brooklyns desire to be in a relationship.

From the EPs I've watched in recent history (I'm catching up :) ), he's definetely not more or less deep than Broadway.

I'd say Broadway is somebody who's not highly intelligent, yet a person who's got a naive understanding of what is going on through his very emotional side. We see him as the most "soft" of the trio, th one who's very good in catching subtle things and interrested in the things behind the superficial image.

Brooklyn on the other hand is also interrested in this, but in his need to find things mistakes the outside with the inside. Not just with women, but with quite a few things throughout the series. But because of that, I really wouldn't label him less depp: he's very melancholic, self-reflecting and doubtful. Of all of the clan, he's the one who catches the bigger scheme behind his and others actions the fastest. I guess he even knows that he is kind of a silly guy in his chasing of women (just look at him trying to get a date with Delilah, he is clearly awkward of asking her, not because of asking her, but I think because he understands the desperate situation he's putting himself in).

I'd say Broadway is the most emotionally open character. He's living his own emotions out and plays by other people's emotions, but Brooklyn is the guy who looks more into things and finds less (hence his melancholy), who tries to figure things out, yet fails through his young age and misconceptions.

I don't even think he's not showing his deeper side - I just think he's desperate, not just for a girl, this is a symbol of much greater loneliness than most people figure out in the first place.

Anonymous

Brooklyn seems to be naive, but, still, he can be deep when he wants to be. Everyone can. People just choose WHEN they want to be. Broadway, on the other hand, seems to keep that switch on all the time, making him more sensitive and overall more attractive. Women like men who are deep and share their feeling, and who they can have an open conversation with, as well as an intellectual one. It really has nothing to do with Brooklyn not being deep, because he can be, it's just that he never shows that side of himself, and, therefore, many assume that it doesn't exist. Now, if he were to show his more sensitive side once in a while (I'm not saying that he doesn't ever show it, because he does, just not very often), maybe Angela might have seen something she liked more than just his 'charm', but, personally, I'm glad she's with Broadway. They were made for each other. Plus, we get to meet an awesome new Gargoyle from feudal Japan. I can't wait to meet Katana, along with Nash, Fu-dog, and the soon-to-be-hatching Tachi.
lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari

Brook> Not to mention that in Protection, Broadway picked up on the fact that Elisa was working undercover (whereas Goliath assumed she was under a spell).
Antiyonder

"Throughout the series, there are plenty of times where you can see that Broadway has a lot more insight than his rookery bros' and he's also got the better judge of character. For example, in "Metamorphosis", most of the time, Brooklyn seemed to just want Maggie because she was available; she was a gal w/ wings and he wanted to call first dibs on her, whereas Broadway could immediately tell that Maggie was put off by them but was still willing to help. I'd also go as far to say that Broadway is also more in touch with his feminine and sensitive side. Though he's not touchy about his weight (and therein lies a charm), he does have a heart of gold and is very well aware of the people around him."

Yeah, sure, but that's got to do with characters and not being deep.

That Brooklyn chased every female around was rather due to, well, a mixure of hormones, and plenty other things. But that doesn't mean just cause of that that he's not deep. Wasn't he the second of the clan to read (after Goliath and before Broad)?? Anyways, I think you're confusing his naiivity with deepness.

Brook

D.Taina: The tsbards!
lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari

TODD> Yup, Ellison recounts that story in his book here.

Actually, one of my all time favorite stores about Harlan Ellison is the half a day he worked at Disney.

A few hours after arriving for his first day of work at Disney Studios, Ellison and several of his fellow writers headed off to the studio commissary for lunch. Once there, Ellison jokingly suggested they "do a Disney porno flick" and proceeded to act it out while imitating several voices of Disney characters. Unbeknownst to him, Roy Disney and several of the studio heads were sitting at the adjacent table. Ellison claims that he returned from lunch to find his pink slip at his desk and the name on his parking space whited out.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Thirteenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"A good story should provoke discussion, debate, argument...and the occasional bar fight." ~ J. Michael Straczynski

Brook: Hmm, I think I agree w/ Greg B on this one, with Broadway being more deeper (not just his stomach LoL). I mean, I think it was this quality that drew Angela to him later on. Throughout the series, there are plenty of times where you can see that Broadway has a lot more insight than his rookery bros' and he's also got the better judge of character. For example, in "Metamorphosis", most of the time, Brooklyn seemed to just want Maggie because she was available; she was a gal w/ wings and he wanted to call first dibs on her, whereas Broadway could immediately tell that Maggie was put off by them but was still willing to help. I'd also go as far to say that Broadway is also more in touch with his feminine and sensitive side. Though he's not touchy about his weight (and therein lies a charm), he does have a heart of gold and is very well aware of the people around him.

Brooklyn is certainly the more melancholy and almost, tragic of the trio but I have to agree that Broadway is the deepest.

As far as Lex goes, he's grown to be my top favorite of the three, for the reasons Greg B has stated. He's one of the good guys, but there are times when you're left with, "Okay...did Lex just do that?" I think more than anything, we're going to see this "alternate" Lex obviously shine a lot more through Brentwood...and THAT is something that I'm really looking forward to.

VoLpE de FuEgO - [sailorx78 at hotmail dot com]

BISHANSKY - I remember reading a story about how Harlan Ellison had proposed a story for the first "Star Trek" movie about the Enterprise crew going back in time to prehistoric Earth, before humans had come along, finding the planet occupied by an alien race, realizing that in order for humans to exist, the aliens would have to be disposed of but faced with the moral dilemma of whether to wipe out an entire species in order to save their own race. The producer told Ellison that he'd been reading von Daniken's books about ancient astronauts recently and wanted to put in something from them about the Mayans being in contact with the alien colonizers. He refused to listen when Ellison pointed out that the Mayans wouldn't be around in pre-human times, and at last Ellison walked out in disgust.
Todd Jensen

Greg B.: I would disagree with Broadway beeing deeper and more mature. I wouldn't say he's deeper, and I guess he's just as mature as Brooklyn, but mostly he is quieter. Brooklyn is quite the guy to overplay his emotions, the guy who's not alright with loosing. I think Broadway doesn't think if he's loosing or winning, but rather is living his life like it comes, whilst Brooklyn tries to steer and control it (hence also the TimeDancing, where it all goes out of control).

As for Lexington, you just made me think there... something is going on here, and I really don't see where Greg is taking us, but oh boy...

Brook

"Aww, Halloween! Tonight is the night!"
VoLpE de FuEgO - [sailorx78 at hotmail dot com]

Just a heads-up...

AOL Hometown shut down today, and so, every website hosted on AOL has been deleted. This includes my site, the Gargoyles Imagery Resource. Fortunately, I was able to find a new host in time. Click my name!

Gorebash, could you update the link in the menu bar, please? Thank you!

D. Taina - [<-- New URL!]
"The story is told -- though who can say if it be true..." -Shari

ALGERNON> Personally, I'm all for putting Harlan Ellison in charge of the Star Trek franchise. I think it would be poetic justice of the nth degree. :D

DEMONSKRYE> " Even back when "Gargoyles" was going into its second season, Greg and his crew were being encouraged to take a "tiers and tentpoles" approach, creating groups of episodes that could - theoretically - be viewed in any order without the audience geeting confused."

Well, they were encouraged, but they seldom didn't. Obviously, you couldn't watch "Leader of the Pack," "Eye of the Beholder" and "Vows" in any order, and they were in the same tier. Same with "Lighthouse" and "The Silver Falcon" (because of Broadway reading the note in the latter.

The next tier originally had "The Price" airing too soon, which would confuse anyone paying attention to Owen's fist.

The World Tour definitely had a specific order to them, especially with "Golem" changing the focus of the quest. Not to mention "Sanctuary" and "Mark of the Panther." And obviously, "Pendragon" had to air after "Kingdom" and "M.I.A." and "Golem" and "Panther." And finally, "Ill Met By Moonlight" and "Future Tense" both had to come last.

So tiers and tent poles was a nice theory, but in practice, there is a very specific order. I know I am missing other examples.

"Maybe it's just that I'm older and noticing them more now, but it seems to me that the real explosion of shows that really allow events in one episode to impact the next and let their characters change has only come in recent years."

The real explosion started this decade, but they were happening well before. "Babylon 5" did it a decade before "24" ever aired. And even then, it's not been done like that since. It was a five year arc, and all five seasons were planned in detail seven years before the pilot was shot.

Joss Whedon was doing it with Buffy and Angel years before "24" as well.

But, and I like a lot of TNG for what it was, but at the same time, it was so plain white vanilla. The characters didn't have that many personality flaws, and for the most part, the people you met in the pilot are the ones you see in the finale. Nothing much has changed, except getting rid of that annoying Wesley kid.

I've been reading Harlan Ellison's little tell all book about "City on the Edge of Forever," he wrote the original script for this now legendary episode of TOS. And, as great as the episode is, the original script was much better. And here's a rather telling quote from Ellison.

"Now. There are things in this script that were taken out entirely. The first is the character of Beckwith. I was advised by NBC network continuity, at the time of the turn-in of the first draft of the teleplay, that drugs - even something as clearly a fantasy construct as the Jewels of Sound - could not be permitted on a show that was airing so early in the evening. Further, there is a killing on board: one crew member kills another. I was told that was nixed because no one on board the starship Enterprise could be a bad guy. I railed at that concept. It always struck me as nonsense that the network could pass off a space battlecruiser of that size, with a complement of many hundreds of people, without a few rotten apples in the barrel. Just the rigors of space exploration and tight confinement should have made somebody go bananas. But, no, they didn't want to shatter that silly myth that all tv heroes are just that: heroes. I was going for some reality, but the network gets inordinately uptight about such stuff. In the televised version, the entire Jewels of Sound/Beckwith/LeBeque situation was replaced by the ship's doctor injecting himself with some drug that made him go loonie and he became the Beckwith character, going back in time."

That was written in 1974, and is in the book. Later he found out that it wasn't the network, it was Gene Roddenberry who made those changes (also in the book). Now, while I respect that it was Roddenberry's show, at the same time I agree with Ellison, I mean... come on. There was A LOT more that went on there, but that is just a small piece from a seventy-five page essay written by Ellison of what really went on behind the scenes and what kind of man Roddenberry really was. And as great as the aired version is, the original script was much, much better. It's a very interesting book, you can get it used on Amazon for a small price.

"Trek" has a lot of awesome concepts and some amazingly talented people on it. But I could never watch it without that feeling that the writers were handcuffed and because of those handcuffs, couldn't do some amazing, mind blowing things because, it would "damage the franchise."

... on that note, yes I am bitter that "Firefly" got canned. I think it would have been as great as any other show mentioned if they didn't kill it like that. And, much as I enjoyed "Serenity," I wish that was several episodes of the series instead of an abridged movie version of where Joss was going.

Now, to tie this all in with "Gargoyles," I think that "Gargoyles" hit me at just the right moment in my life. I like my shades of grey characters. I like my characters who grow and change. I like when actions have consequences. I love that Greg didn't have to pull punches. Those are my favorite kind of shows.

Goliath: Obviously a strong and visionary leader. Wants to bring about a new golden age, and yet, he is not without prejudice either, especially in those early episodes. He can be vengeful. Not to Demona levels, of course.

Brooklyn: Intelligent but reckless, and chases tail. Confuses his hormones with love.

Broadway: In many ways, deeper and more mature than Brooklyn, but not the right guy to be a leader. But can be stubborn and avoid his problems.

Lexington: If anyone in the clan has a dark side, it's clearly him. Puck didn't use him as the villain in "Future Tense" for nothing. Not to mention he blew a hole through Coyote's chest and, I think, didn't even realize he was a robot at the time. Almost let his brother die to take a shot at the Pack. Now, I don't think he's going to go bad, Brentwood is. But that's still all there.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Thirteenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"A good story should provoke discussion, debate, argument...and the occasional bar fight." ~ J. Michael Straczynski

Awakening 1 - 5 - I'll give it a 10 out of 10. I'm tempted to give it a 9 or 9.5, because I feel like some of the character designs hadn't been sufficiently solidified well enough by that point. It seems like the way some of them look changed a good deal after Awakening. Still, all 5 of these episodes are simply stellar, so I'll go with a 10.

Farscape > Greg B mentioned Farscape a ways down the page, and I just wanted to add my own praise for this series. Farscape is GREAT. I used to religiously watch this show every time it came on. Such a good show. My favorite character was Chiana but I liked them all a lot. I hope to buy all the DVDs one of these days.

Rebel

Happy Halloween everyone!! (Bright Orange for the day ;D)

Asatira: It's going to pretty calm over here too . . . unfortunatley there's not even a usual pack of kids to candy-dispense too :( So I've decided to revert to watching movies with close friends. Besides Hocus Pocus (which is usually my default Halloween flick) this weekend, I was trying to think about some REALLY good films to watch this weekend? Any suggestions? (My first thought was Young Frankenstein but I've seen that too . . . .)

Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka

Happy Halloween to everyone who celebrates it. I've got to give out sweets to the little darlings tonight and hopefully watch a horror movie. Were not very interested in Halloween over here, there are some people interested in it but me and my family not a big fan of it.
VickyUK - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]

Happy Halloween indeed, everyone! And thank you for the information regarding the comics - cant wait now for the books!
GargFan1821 - [rbracaglia at gmail dot com]

Happy Halloween, folks! Hope those are able are having their own bashes tonight or going to one. Here, it's going to be pretty calm.
Asatira

Happy Halloween everybody!

Hey, I just got a cool idea for a Halloween movie... Egon Pax singing "Its a Small World After All". Now THAT'S bound to give some nightmares...

lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari

Greg B> "I mean, there's just been a good segmented sci-fi show for almost any piece of sci-fi you want to watch, and a lot of it has been done so damn well because they've been able to take some big chances. "Star Trek" doesn't have that luxury because it's "Star Trek".

But, really, my biggest problem with "Star Trek" has always been the magic reset button, the lack of character development, and the lack of consequences."

Totally agree with you here man. My big problem with Voyager was the fact that it had a really cool and potentialy dramatic premise, yet never had the guts to go beyond the bog standard space-anomaly-of-the-week stories that had already been done to death on TNG.

DS9 by contrast wasn't afraid to take Trek to places it had never been before, the main cast didn't always get agree or even like each other, story-arcs spanned multiple seasons and not every problem could be solved by ionizing the neutrinos.

Sometimes I wish Paramount had just put Ron Moore in charge of the franchise and told him to do as he pleased.

Algernon
"Jack, I'm only an elected official! I can't make decisions by myself!" -Mayor of Halloween Town

GUYS - PLEASE, LEAVE A RATING FOR AWAKENING!! I don't want to run after anybody, but really, if we want to get this going... ;) RATE!!

DS9: When I watched it (back then, oh hell was I young...), I didn't fully like it. The audience got a handful of characters and different humanoids and storyarcs, but I never really cared for it. I felt it dragged.

Voyager: Voyager had some good EPs - that one with that virtual killer-circus troupe FREAKED me out! But overal, the show also dragged!! MASSIVELY!! Many characters were established as cliches after the first season and the show had a very episodic feel to it.

B5: Now I liked THAT show!! B5 wasn't that much Sci OR Fi, it rather portrayed the very realistic daily life of counsellors and politics, crewmen and alienated aliens, traumatised and hopeful alike. Great, great make-up effects and intriguing arcs helped keep it together. This really was a good show. :)

Brook

Happy Halloween! And Happy NaNoWriMo tonight! Anyone know about/is going to do NaNoWriMo? It will be my frist time participating. Im so excited!
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

Happy Halloween everbody!

13 years ago today, Fox was running amuck through the streets of Manhattan in her werefox form.

12 years ago today, Xanatos was making final preparations for his Masque Party and Thailog was sleeping, but prepared for his attack on the Labyrinth that night.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]

Greg B> The only Trek series I've watched a lot of is TNG, but I assume that what you mean by "magic reset button" is the fact that the Trek shows generally don't showcase a ton of continuity. You do have secondary characters making repeat appearances where the main characters recall their previous encounters, but for the most part, situations and characters all return to status quo by the episode's conclusion. I see your point, but I don't think that a lack of episode-to-episode continuity and overarcing storyline necessarily makes for a bad TV show. Maybe it's just that I'm older and noticing them more now, but it seems to me that the real explosion of shows that really allow events in one episode to impact the next and let their characters change has only come in recent years. And even now, it's still something of a risk. With the right team behind it and the right marketing, a series with a big focus on continuity can be "24" (which I personally didn't care for, but I can't deny it was very popular). But post-"24," the TV landscape has been littered with any number of shows that tried to do something similar. Some have done well, but others just didn't catch on and simply sat there, failing to attract new viewers because audience really couldn't just jump in at any point in the story (or didn't believe they could anyway.) Though shows like "24" and "Avatar" on the animation side have helped make the case for more continuity, my impression is that networks still see it as a double-edged sword, encouraging loyal viewers to keep coming back week after week, yet causing potential new viewers to feel like they're hopelessly behind and to ignore the show. Even back when "Gargoyles" was going into its second season, Greg and his crew were being encouraged to take a "tiers and tentpoles" approach, creating groups of episodes that could - theoretically - be viewed in any order without the audience geeting confused. And like any writing device, continuity is only as good as the writers who use it. You can have a brilliantly written and highly enjoyable series with stand-alone episodes that revert everything to status quo by the end and a series with tons of continuity and goodies for loyal viewers which is so poorly done that no one really cares that the story is progressing forward over the course of a season.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Paperback> It comes out in January, also.

Same with Bad Guys paperback, which will contain BG 1-4, and the last two remaining issues.

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

The individual comics have been canceled, but the stories intended for #9-12 will make their debut in the Trade Paperback "Gargoyles: Clan Building Volume 2".
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]

Didnt want to ask this directly to Greg as I wasnt sure if its been asked a million times or not ( couldnt find it). Question is - I have searched EVERYWHERE for Clanbuilding # 9 as I have just got my paws on issues 1-8. Can anyone direct me to a link or place I can find a copy? Or if there is a rerelease in the very near future for a novel I can also catch? Thanks so much - I've loved this series since I was little and I am beyond giddy over the new canon :)
GargFan1821 - [rbracaglia at gmail dot com]

Antiyonder> Thanks for the link.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

King Cobra 582> First two seasons of Babylon 5 are available for viewing on Hulu (Legally loaded of course): http://www.hulu.com/babylon-5
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]

Wow. I just ranted on Star Trek not too long ago:

http://me-262.livejournal.com/2008/10/24/

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I could bore you with a philosophical tirade about freedom and tyranny, or try and explain to you what new horizons are suddenly open to me, but I doubt you would understand and if you did it might frighten you. That amuses me." -Durandal

Greg B.> Huh. I'll look into those DVDs.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

BSG is still on, I think. But it's coming to an end soon. "Babylon 5" had a five year long saga, planned in advance. It ran it's five seasons, told its story. I don't know who's airing it now, if anyone. But it's on DVD.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Thirteenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"A good story should provoke discussion, debate, argument...and the occasional bar fight." ~ J. Michael Straczynski

Sci-Fi> ""Babylon 5" told a solid, cohesive story from start to finish that had much more sci in the fi than most other series tend to. So if you want a science-fiction novel on TV, that was your show.

"Battlestar Galactica" is the military, post-apocalyptic, big society and philosophical question show that focuses all over the place from criminals to the deckhands up to the admiralty. So you've got that too."

Just reading these shows described in that fashion makes me want to at least give them a shot.

Are they still on TV?

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

I like some Trek. No where near enough to ever call myself a Trekker. But, I always felt it was the "plain, white, vanilla' flavor of television science fiction.

"Babylon 5" told a solid, cohesive story from start to finish that had much more sci in the fi than most other series tend to. So if you want a science-fiction novel on TV, that was your show.

"Battlestar Galactica" is the military, post-apocalyptic, big society and philosophical question show that focuses all over the place from criminals to the deckhands up to the admiralty. So you've got that too.

"Farscape" had the whole alien thing down pat. Totally spot on.

"Firefly" was definitely all about the lower classes.

I mean, there's just been a good segmented sci-fi show for almost any piece of sci-fi you want to watch, and a lot of it has been done so damn well because they've been able to take some big chances. "Star Trek" doesn't have that luxury because it's "Star Trek".

But, really, my biggest problem with "Star Trek" has always been the magic reset button, the lack of character development, and the lack of consequences.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Thirteenth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"A good story should provoke discussion, debate, argument...and the occasional bar fight." ~ J. Michael Straczynski

Brook> What's wrong with Voyager? I liked it alright, as a means to step into the Trekkie Pool. It wasn't the greatest show, granted, but I was eager to see them get home. And then I had characters like Chakotay (cool character) and Seven Of Nice (Friggin' hot) that helped boost my interest.

Algernon> "No DS9? Why ponce around with TNG and Voyager when you could be watching the series that brought modern Trek to it's peak of creativity and entertainment value."

I'm working my way through ST and TNG at the moment. Once done with them, I'll focus on DS9.

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

Well, I've never watched B5 at all and I don't know anything about this controversy, but I will say that DS9 was the best of the Star Trek series' IMHO.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]

Dentists love Halloween the most. Probably lines up half their business for the year. :P
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Greg B.> Firstly let me just star by saying that I'm a big fan of both DS9 and B5, and that I have nothing but respect and admiration for JMS.

But to my mind the argument that Paramount some how "ripped off" B5 to make DS9 holds absolutly no weight for me for one simple reason; beyond the fact that both series take place on futuristic space stations, they really have nothing in common.

Was Sinclair a single father haunted by the death of his ex-wife?

Was Ivanova a nationalistic ex-terrorist?

Was Garibaldi the lost scion of a semi-mythical race of shapeshifter?

Was Dr. Franklin a naive genitically engineered superman?

Was Talia an immortal symbiotic lifeform?

You might as well accuse Ally MacBeal of ripping of Perry Mason, after all they're both shows about lawyers.

Algernon
"Jack, I'm only an elected official! I can't make decisions by myself!" -Mayor of Halloween Town

Star Wars > Star Trek

Boom! That just happened!

The Gargoyles Pulse
~ Tony Tini

Chip: Everyone loves Halloween. Except, you know, Dentists =P

Brook: Funny video. Ben Stiller and Borat have to be the best in there...

lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari

Sorry, that last "Anonymous" was me. Computer's acting up, so I wiped my cookies and forgot to reset my CR avatar and such.
Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
"You cannot make a cup of tea large enough, or a book long enough to suit me."--C.S. Lewis

Litwolf>

I LOVE Halloween. We always go ALL OUT for the holiday. We have to, with a last name like Coffin, you either embrace all Hallows Eve, or shun it.

I'll be wearing the Archmage costume that I made at the Gathering...with some minor improvements. (We're considered the best house in the neighborhood for Treat or Trickers...with all the decorations and such.)

Anonymous
"You cannot make a cup of tea large enough, or a book long enough to suit me."--C.S. Lewis

Algernon> "No DS9? Why ponce around with TNG and Voyager when you could be watching the series that brought modern Trek to it's peak of creativity and entertainment value."

Entertainment value, maybe. Creativity? Well, it's much easier when you had a guy who pitched another Science Fiction series to Paramount to do free R&D for them without his knowledge or consent.

Just to saying...
http://jmsnews.com/thread.aspx?id=_DS9%20=%20Babylon%205&topic=Spiderman

http://jmsnews.com/thread.aspx?id=_DS9%20=%20Babylon5%20So%20what?&topic=Spiderman

http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-13041

Sorry.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Oh Lord, please help our athletes bring home the gold. Enough gold so we can melt it down and buy back our economy from the Chinese."

Oh, by the way, it's the day before Halloween! Anyone else dressing up? Im going to be wearing a blue top, blue skirt, blue coin scarf, and a silver bird beak mask with blue feathers, plus a blue feather boa. Ill be a Blue Bellydancing Bird! ( And an alliteration ^_^ )

I just glued all the feathers on my mask last night, I love how it came out! I cant wait to wear the mask during my classes tomorrow and see if my professors say anything.

Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

Okay. Awakening 1-5 I give a 10 to. Great animation, great story. I love watching the first episode and a half over and over again because I love the ancient times. Fantastic start to the series!
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

King Cobra> "Actually, I've spent the last 2-3 years *slowly* getting into the whole Star Trek thing. Seen every episode of Voyager, some of TNG, and some of the original series. Not to mention having every movie, on both VHS and/or DVD format."

No DS9? Why ponce around with TNG and Voyager when you could be watching the series that brought modern Trek to it's peak of creativity and entertainment value.

Algernon
"Jack, I'm only an elected official! I can't make decisions by myself!" -Mayor of Halloween Town

WATCH THIS, SEND IT TO PEOPLE, AND WATCH THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!

Did I tell you to watch this??

I mean, really, watch it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fX40RsSLwF4

And take it to heart!!

Brook

I used to be a HUUUUUUGE Voyager fan back in the day. Looking back now, I feel so silly. *blush*

I still have a little soft spot for it. Or maybe it's better described as a blind spot....

bluewyvern
"Attend the petty jealousies and angers that prey upon your heart."

"Seen every episode of Voyager..."

Poor you... :(
;P

Brook

Patrick> Actually, I've spent the last 2-3 years *slowly* getting into the whole Star Trek thing. Seen every episode of Voyager, some of TNG, and some of the original series. Not to mention having every movie, on both VHS and/or DVD format.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

"Encounter at Farpoint" was the pilot episode of a silly little sci-fi series called "Star Trek: The Next Generation". I don't expect man fans of "Gargoyles" have ever heard of it. :P
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Bluewyvern> 'Encounter At Farpoint'? Which series is that from?
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

King Cobra> Not necessarily. There are definitely shows I'm a fan of whose pilots I wouldn't give a perfect 10 to. Some shows take a while to find their footing. I don't think I'd give "Encounter at Farpoint" a 10, for instance. :P

Actually, the only examples I can think of right now are all Star Trek series, which have notoriously wobbly starts. I'll get back to you...

bluewyvern
"Attend the petty jealousies and angers that prey upon your heart."

Awakening 1-5 is a perfect 10 from me also.

Set up the characters nicely, had a lot of opening exposition to shape the rest of the series, had some funny bits (Broadway with the chicken leg), great scenes with the Trio, and Demona's unveiled betrayal. All highlights in my book.

Not to mention that, considering these were the first EPs, any fan would have to like them just on principal.

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

Ok. Awakening, 10.

For the record, I liked the Avalon tour. It had some rough spots, but I loved it on the whole, and I didn't really experience that whole disorientation and restlessness the first time that some have mentioned feeling -- I just went along with it, and I loved it.

I also don't have any problem with Heritage or Mark of the Panther. MotP had some cheesy bits, I suppose, but I really enjoyed seeing Dianne in her element, and I really liked the storytelling bit. That made it worthwhile for me.

Favorite episodes: excluding multi-parters, as usual, I'll go beyond my usual knee-jerk answers of The Mirror and Future Tense to add Long Way to Morning, High Noon, Eye of the Beholder, and MIA.

Rebel> I totally get what you're saying. I had the same problem with Outfoxed (but the Fox/Renard thing is the key to that one -- it's more than Fox's usual foxiness because there are *two* foxes), Legion, Double Jeopardy, The Cage...actually there's a whole chunk there earlyish in the second season with more abstract titles than usual. I can figure most of them out after a minute, but I agree they're a little harder to remember instantly. I don't think it's a huge failure or anything -- in fact, I like abstract titles. But I know what you mean.

bluewyvern
"Attend the petty jealousies and angers that prey upon your heart."

Litwolf: I believe every week, we're doing 5 eps @ a time, starting from the very first episodes to the end of Season 2's. So we're on "Awakening, Part 1-5 now" ^^
VoLpE de FuEgO

Im all for this episode rating list. Are we gonna do one episode at a time or make a list with all of them?
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

Awakening 1-5~ 110. Wait, how high can we go again?

These episodes, The Price, and The Green were always episodes that stood out to me animation-wise. That's just me though...

lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari

Matt: HUH. I've read that thing, like, five times in a row, and I never saw anything about The Eyrie Pyramid. Guess I overlooked it...
lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari

"Awakening, Part 1-5" = 10/10

Beautiful, superb animation! Great introduction, wonderful characters and a killer plot! I think this was the first show I watched where one of the supposed good guys turned bad (Demona). I was 9 when I saw the Gargoyles: Movie/Awakening Compilation and I got that Demona and Goliath were lovers but when I saw that she shot at him, I was like "Oh noes!" But I was immediately hooked because of that; it was something I hadn't really seen before. Loved the parts with the trio and as I mentioned before, I loved acting out the scenes in these episodes.

"Awakening Parts 1-5" will always be among my default top faves; they were my first episodes and first introduction to the series, so they're always in my heart <3

*goes to watch the episodes again*

VoLpE de FuEgO - [sailorx78 at hotmail dot com]
Lex: It's too WEIRD. Kinda fun...but WEIRD!

Lonerider> The Eyrie Pyramid was mentioned in the proposal for the Gargoyles: 2198 spinoff.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]

I'M OK with that. :)

This way, people can also catch up with it via "the tube" or some other "source". :)

Here we go:


AWAKENING (part 1-5)

My rating: 10/10

The first EP. Great dialogue, intriguing animation (that umbrella scene... love...), great start!!

Brook

Brook: Well, that could be kinda of fun but I mean, the episode list is pretty long ^^; I'm not going to read everyone's ratings if we do the whole episode list at one time, guaranteed LoL How about we just choose about 10 or less, starting from the very first episode and every week we continue forward?
VoLpE de FuEgO - [sailorx78 at hotmail dot com]
Lex: It's too WEIRD. Kinda fun...but WEIRD!

@Volpe: High five!! :D Repetition annoys me so much. I'll never understand the difference in some of the Garg-scripts. Bonding Goliath and ANgela? OK. BUT DO IT OVER NESSY AND OLDER/YOUNGER NESSY?? Does not work in my book. Let people tell the same thing over and over again in MotP? Uh, o, not really...

@ Greg B: Also keep in mind that this is a very objective thing. I, for one, am not very fond with many EP-titles, not just with Gargoyles - yet, I still enjoy the show. I think Monsters is a fairly bad title for that EP, because it is more centered on themes of family, responsibility and the things that bond with being in a family (or accepting it). I'd rather called it "Generations", but... well, you know...

I think Angela makes a nice bait though.

ON A LARGER LEVEL - I know this has NEVER been done, but - could we try to get a rating system?

Here's what I'm thinking of:

I'll copy and paste the enire EP-list in here, and rate it from 1 to 10 (well, guess what is what). Everybody can just copy and paste it and give his/her ratings.

At the end, we'll count the ratings and will have a totally GEEKY, FIXED RATING of what Gargoyles Fans think is EP Nr. 1 and EP Nr... worst.

Whaddya think??

Brook

HoE > Specificity. The whole series is full of revelations. That's why, when I hear "Revelations", I can't immediately remember which episode it's referring to, since there are so many episodes that have revelations in them.



It feels like I'm repeating myself. I'll try not to say anything else about this unless I think I have something new to add to the discussion.

Rebel

Damn! Sorry for the double post >_<

Anyway, Brook, I agree with you on "MotP"; that episode is definitely one of my least favorites.

Oh! Just came up with another title:

"The One with the Rainbow Gargoyles"

VoLpE de FuEgO - [sailorx78 at hotmail dot com]
Lex: It's too WEIRD. Kinda fun...but WEIRD!

LoL Thanks, lonerider, for being the only one who responded to my last question :p And sorry Greg B, but I have to agree with Samuel. I realize that you're very committed to the show as we all are, but try not to be so forceful when attempting to get a point (or in this case, an opinion) across. Rebel thinks some titles aren't as revelant to the episodes than others, and you think the opposite. Okay, 2 differing opinions w/ enough evidence to back up each one. Why can't we just leave it at that and not accuse someone of being "wrong" for their personal beliefs?

Btw, here's my episode title:

"The One Where Jackal Wants to Be a Sculptor"

VoLpE de FuEgO - [sailorx78 at hotmail dot com]
Lex: It's too WEIRD. Kinda fun...but WEIRD!

LoL Thanks, lonerider, for being the only one who responded to my last question :p And sorry Greg B, but I have to agree with Samuel. I realize that you're very committed to the show as we all are, but try not to be so forceful when attempting to get a point (or in this case, an opinion) across. Rebel thinks some titles aren't as revelant to the episodes than others, and you think the opposite. Okay, 2 differing opinions w/ enough evidence to back up each one. Why can't we just leave it at that and not accuse someone of being "wrong" for their personal beliefs?

Btw, here's my episode title:

"The One Where Jackal Wants to Be a Sculptor"

VoLpE de FuEgO - [sailorx78 at hotmail dot com]
Lex: It's too WEIRD. Kinda fun...but WEIRD!

Rebel: Not only are the gargoyles finally "revealed" to Matt, but at the end of the episode, it's "revealed" that a close friend of Matt's had also been keeping secrets from him. The title works for me. What more do you want? A "revelation" that Hudson and Mace were the same person?
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I could bore you with a philosophical tirade about freedom and tyranny, or try and explain to you what new horizons are suddenly open to me, but I doubt you would understand and if you did it might frighten you. That amuses me." -Durandal

"Charisma82: Yep, Mark of the Panther. She drives me INSANE in that episode. Anybody else have this problem?"

*Lifts hand*

I am sensitive towards bad dialogue, especially repetitive dialogue. And oh boy... is THIS repetitve...

I guess that EGON PAX brainwashed me when it came to repetition... :(

Brook

"The Eyrie Pyramid-In Puck's vision, the Eyrie Building has been shown to be hugely expanded in size and technological sophistication and is now known as the Eyrie Pyramid. In the real Gargoyles Universe, the Eyrie Pyramid will exist in the same way by 2198 though whether it will look like it did in Puck's vision is not known."


Okay, I'm officially confused. When did Greg say that The Eyrie Pyramid was going to be around in 2198? Did I miss something?

lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari

volpe de fuego: I'm completely lacking in talent when it comes to impressions. I just can't do them...
lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari

Brook: Why thank you ;)

Charisma82: Yep, Mark of the Panther. She drives me INSANE in that episode. Anybody else have this problem?

lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari

Samuel > I have the same problem with the title "Outfoxed". When I hear "Outfoxed", I immediately think of lots of other episodes that have Fox in them, and have someone doing some outfoxing. Like "Upgrade", for example, Fox outfoxes David and the pack tries to outfox the clan, but end up getting outfoxed by them instead. And "Walkabout" as well, the matrix outfoxes Fox and Anastasia. When I hear "Outfoxed", I immediately think of OTHER episodes, not "Outfoxed" itself. And like you, I also think of "Eye of the Beholder". Though maybe D'Taina is right...even though I've watched all the episodes many times, maybe I just need to watch "Outfoxed" more.

If I had been the one to name the episode "Revelations", I probably would have called it "Key" or "The Key". An immediate concrete connection is drawn to the episode (and to no other episode), since the keys that are dropped play an important role in driving the episode's action. Also, there are lots of other, less literal meanings that have to do with keys. Trust plays an important role in the episode, and Elisa realizes that trust is KEY to a partnership. Also, at the end, Matt realizes that merely BRINGING Goliath to the hotel, not keeping him there, was the KEY thing to getting in to the Illuminati. The dialog could have been altered slightly to make the key connection more obvious.

Rebel

I don't think I wrote anything here when we started this a few months ago, but on YouTube there is commentary we do on different shows, and one of them is Gargoyles. People who haven't seen the show in a while have seen the commentary and remembered the show. Just thought I'd post the website in case anyone is interested in checking them out themselves.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Charisma82Commentary

Charisma82
Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies.

Jade >> "Mr. Carter's Day Out" was a good one! XD
The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>T.T)> Still job hunting...

lonerider26> Which episode are you talking about where we hate Elisa's mom? Are you talking about Mark of the Panther?
Charisma82
Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies.

Haha, all those other totally nerd shout-ins of mine just came back into my mind....

"OH, and this character is going to show up again!!"
"OH, see, there, Margot and her husband, they're in every second EP!!"

Also on a side note, my mum was surprised by the fact there was a woman under the "terrorists". :) Weird how people point things out to you that you've embraced as normal. I'm so excited how this is continuing and what she thinks of the rest. :)

Brook

"The one where the trio go totally bonkers over the first girl they see in ages!"
"The one where Goliath is cockblocked by reality!" (O stole this from a youtube comment. I am lame!)
"The one where Demona goes "Sorry big guy, but I'd rather take your clone!""
"The one here Thailog goes "I just made a clone to fit my pleasure!""
"The one where the clone goes "Sorry Thailog, but I got a ming of my own!" and ends up with Brooklyns clone!"
"The one where Puck is a smartass!"
"The second one where Puck is a smartass!"
"The last one in the trilogy where Puck is a smartass!"
"The one where we find ot what happened to this whiny kid who went "Meh, a demon scarred me!""
---------

My fav by others was "The one where we learn to hate Elisas mother!!" ROFL great, great job!!!

On a side note:

My mum is a writer, and we talked a lot about all this canonical stuff, how when you write something ongoing, you've got to take lessons from comic Books, pulp fiction and Agatha Christie alike. And she was like "Oh, I wanted to ask you what the deal with Gargoyles was, you loved that show!!"

SO - I made her watch AWAKENING for the VERY FIRST TIME!! :D

And... she disliked the firt 5 minutes. :( Too much fighting and the character design wasn't her thing. When she saw the Trip, she was like "HEY, those guys are rad!" and I chuckled and was like "OK - you gotta think about which one is my favourite! OH, and one of them apparently finds out he's gay, but only waaaaaaaaaaaaay later." Guess how my mum looked at me. :D
Anyways, with each minute she liked it a bit more. And she LOVES Demona!!

I was REALLY surprised - I hadn't seen this in ages, and the duialogue STRUCK me. There are so many good parts in here... For example Goliaths remark towards Elisa to "not fall off the building again." cracked me up. There's so much great effort put in there!!

I'm so looking forward how she likes the other EPs... :)

Brook

Greg B> Goliath Eats a Pepper! Hahaha. That one is killing me!

My addition> More Than Meets the Eye of Odin

The Gargoyles Pulse
~ Tony Tini

titles> So who can guess all of the episode titles from the new ones you are all coming up with? I think I missed about four amongst all of them. These are easy (yeah, I like movie titles):
"Three Souls And A Body"
"Mr. Carter's Day Out"
"The Black Panther Marks Again"
"Haunted Wyvern"

Jade Griffin - [jade _ griffin at hotmail dot com]
"Foooooooood!!!"

Samuel> I didn't attack her, I just said she's wrong. Those two are not the same thing.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Oh Lord, please help our athletes bring home the gold. Enough gold so we can melt it down and buy back our economy from the Chinese."

Also, Greg, I think it's inappropriate for you to attack a fellow poster for expressing her opinion. (sorry if I got the gender wrong, Rebel) While I understand you have a strong personality, and are a devoted fan to the series, that kind of attitude does and has warded off fans in search of a community.
Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Noodles, anyone?

Rebel: I agree with you about some episode titles not being specific enough to the episode.

Greg B: I also agree that "Outfoxed" is fitting for the episode it named; my problem with it, is it's not specific only to that episode. I always want to put it on, expecting "Eye of the Beholder" and get disappointed. lol It could really pertain to any episode where Fox is being cunning. (which is practically any episode with her in it)

Desdemona surviving: Since we were never introduced to any other female gargoyles of the Wyvern clan, I never really considered the idea of a different female surviving. I don't really like the idea of a gargoyle of the Trio's generation surviving, I find it more dramatic if it were a female of Goliath's generation. Maybe even older...

Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Noodles, anyone?

"Yeah, it's not like there were any revalations in "Revalations." Oh, wait. Yeah there were."

I am aware of that. In fact, I think I specifically stated that there were indeed revelations in "Revelations"...but there are revelations in boatloads of other episodes too. I think the episode could have used a more episode-specific title, with at least one or more cool meanings to it. Like "Bash", "Upgrade", or "Vendettas". Or, maybe a title that specifically indicates what happens in the episode, without being too laughable and clunky--like "Enter Macbeth" or "City of Stone".

Anyway, I'll stop pressing the issue since it seems like everyone vehemently disagrees with me. I'll try to think of some fun pre-school-esque titles too.

Rebel

Rebel> "Outfoxed" is very episode centric. How the hell can you not see that? It couldn't be more episode centric.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Oh Lord, please help our athletes bring home the gold. Enough gold so we can melt it down and buy back our economy from the Chinese."

Alternate titles> *snrk* ^_^
Asatira

LOL at everyone's titles. But, just fyi, that's not what I meant at all. Matt said it better than me:

"To me, the best titles are the ones that are a bit deeper. The titles that are symbolic, the ones that have double or triple meanings. Turf is a good example of this. Double Jeopardy, Upgrade, Sanctuary. All good titles."

While I don't think Double Jeopardy is a great title, I agree with the rest of his comments. To me, "Revelations" and "Outfoxed" just aren't episode-specific enough, and don't really have much meaning to them. But of course, that's just my opinion.

"Bash" is an example of a good title to me. The party is a bash, the clan is getting bashed, and the word "bash" actually appears in the comic. There's not many other episodes that could be called Bash.

Anyway...at least I inadvertently helped add a little humor around here, eh?

Rebel

To join in...

"The One Where Lex Got Duped."
"The One Where MacBeth Says Hello."
"The One With The Steel Clan."
"The One Where Hudson's Flashbacks."
"The One Where They Watch Bambi."
"The One With Goliath Times Two."
"The One Where Fang Takes Over."

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

All I want to say is...

"Two Weddings and A Phoenix Gate"

When Im not rushing to class, Ill think of more. These are fun ^_^

Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

Look what I've started... LOL, pretty entertaining. Thanks Greg B, for bring some humor back to the Room.

How about:

"Soul Transference 101"
"In Which They Go Back To Scotland And Goliath Encounters A Ghost"
"The One With The Big Spider Guy"
"Literacy: Not Just For The Elite Anymore"
"The One With Two Hudsons And A Bronx"

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]

GregB: "The One With the Mean Old Man in the Building."

Don't you mean pshycopathic?

Here's a few: "The One Where Demona Loses Her Marbles".
"The One Where We All Learn to Hate Elisa's Mom". (oh, i do. especially after this episode)
"The One Where Morgan Gets Gipped."
"The One With Jackie Chan Incognito."
"The One With the Goth Girl."

That's all I can come up with right now...

lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari

HoE: Ha ha =P
lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari

GregB: *snickers*

Oh Lord...

lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari

Yeah, it's not like there were any revalations in "Revalations." Oh, wait. Yeah there were.

Let's see, how about...

"Angela Causes Sibling Rivalry"
"Macbeth's Big Fat French Wedding"
"The Manner in Which... Broadway Emulates a Western, Which Results In Both Him and Elisa to Learning to Be More Responsible With Guns."

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Don't. You're too young to experience that much pain." -Susan Ivanova ("Babylon 5")

LOL @ Greg B.

I guess I could try adding to the joke...

"The Adventures of Oberon and His Children"

The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>T.T)> Still job hunting...

Rebel: I don't understand your problem with the episode titles. Do they really have to be episode-specific? Why can't they just sound cool and have multiple meanings? Besides, if you can't remember the episodes unless they have specific titles, it's not the titles' fault. Maybe you just need to watch them more?

Greg B: You don't know how hard you made me laugh with those. Thank you!

D. Taina
"The story is told -- though who can say if it be true..." -Shari

LOL...

"The One With the Mean Old Man in the Building."
"The One With the Old Man in the Wheelchair."
"Goliath Gets Hit With a Pie"
"Brooklyn Steals the Book"
"The Pack Comes Back"
"Coldstone's Very Weird Brain"
"Hudson Remembers the Past"
"Macbeth Steals the Scrolls"
"The One Named After That Gary Cooper Movie"
"Can We Stop the Macbeth Robot"
"Goliath Eats a Pepper"

Hey, this could be the new running joke. Titles if "Gargoyles" episodes were pre-school books. ;)

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Oh Lord, please help our athletes bring home the gold. Enough gold so we can melt it down and buy back our economy from the Chinese."

Titles like that would have worked fine if the gargoyles names had been Ross, Chandler, Joey, Rachel, Monica, and Phoebe. :P
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

I used to get Monsters and Heritage mixed up because the opening scenes were so similiar. But that was years ago. I've seen all the episodes so many times that all the titles bring to mind the precise episode they pair with.

To me, the best titles are the ones that are a bit deeper. The titles that are symbolic, the ones that have double or triple meanings. Turf is a good example of this. Double Jeopardy, Upgrade, Sanctuary. All good titles. Rebel, if we go with what you are saying we might as well just put no thought into it at all and title episodes like "The One Where The Gargoyles Are Cloned" or "The One Where Matt Bluestone Finds Out" or "The One Where Elisa Gets Shot" or "The One In Norway With Odin". Boring.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]

Hey, here's a question for the comment room: which character can you make the best impressions of? Whether it be roaring/growling, regular speech, accents, etc.
VoLpE de FuEgO - [sailorx78 at hotmail dot com]
Lex: "It's too weird. Kinda fun...but WEIRD!"

Patrick > When I said "bad title", what I really meant was that it wasn't episode-specific enough (for my tastes, anyway). Episode-specificity is important to me, when it comes to titles. The episode "Revelations" does indeed contain revelations, but so do a lot of other episodes. So, when I hear the title "Revelations", I don't immediately connect it with that episode. Whereas when I hear a title like "The Mirror" or "Bushido", I instantly connect it to the episodes they refer to. They are more episode-specific. There is only one episode that could be called "Bushido", and as far as I know, there is only one episode that could be called "The Mirror".
Rebel
GOLIATH: I SHOULD SAY SOMETHING SHAKESPEAREAN NOW.

I apologize for posting this here but I ran out of options and didn't see any other way to contact you.
I met Karine at the Comic Con and was impressed with her Gargoyles work. We paid for a commission but have been unable to contact her. Is it possible to pass on my email address? Thank you in advance for your help! And again, I apologize for posting this here.

londerwost - [londerwost99 at yahoo dot com]

"Revelations" is a bad title? Seriously? The same title as the final book of the Bible, which contains one of the most detailed apocalyptic visions in western literature?
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

I know. But still, even Fox outfoxes people multiple times in the series.

I suppose calling it a "bad title" was a little unfair. It's just that, for me, it wasn't sufficiently episode-specific. That, combined with the fact that it's not one of my favorite episodes anyway, makes it hard for me to connect the title "Outfoxed" with the events of the episode "Outfoxed"--when I hear that title after not having heard it in a while, I always forget what happened in that episode.

Rebel
GOLIATH: I SHOULD SAY SOMETHING SHAKESPEAREAN NOW.

"but maybe they just got paired with bad titles--"Revelations" or "Outfoxed" could be titles for many other episodes in the series, since there are always revelations and people outfoxing each other."

Outfoxed. Fox and Renard... Renard is French for Fox.

Just saying....

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Oh Lord, please help our athletes bring home the gold. Enough gold so we can melt it down and buy back our economy from the Chinese."

There are some episodes that, for me, are fairly unrememberable, so that when I hear the episode titles, I don't remember what the episode is about, and I have to to go look them up on the gargwiki. For me, episodes like "Revelations" and "Outfoxed" are like this. They're not bad episodes, but maybe they just got paired with bad titles--"Revelations" or "Outfoxed" could be titles for many other episodes in the series, since there are always revelations and people outfoxing each other.

This contrasts with particularly apt titles, like "The Mirror" or "Thrill of the Hunt", which seem to be better titles to me--the titles themselves adequately allude to what happens in the episodes. I'm not sure if it's the titles or the episodes themselves that makes them hard to remember, but for me, episodes like "Outfoxed" and "Revelations" are just easily forgettable. However, strangely, I have no trouble remember what happened in "The Reckoning" even though that's one of the least helpful titles in the series.

Do any of the rest of you have episodes that you forget about easily?

Rebel

Oops! Forgot "MIA" and "Deadly Force" as my faves, too ^^;
VoLpE de FuEgO - [sailorx78 at hotmail dot com]
Lex: "It's too weird. Kinda fun...but WEIRD!"

Okay, for my least favorites, I'd have to say "Mark of the Panther" and "Outfoxed". During that story Elisa's mom was telling in "MotP", I was getting exasperated; it was so long-winded. As for "Outfoxed", I was just bored of it from the very beginning.

My top faves would have to be all of the ones that feature the Pack and Mutates, "Reawakening", "High Noon", "Eye of the Beholder" and most definitely, "The Reckoning"! "The Reckoning" had drama, action, pretty good animation and had badass sequences XD Gotta love those Clones, too ^^ In short, I love the episodes where new characters (and old) are introduced and bring these heavy storylines and situations along with them :D

VoLpE de FuEgO - [sailorx78 at hotmail dot com]
Lex: "It's too weird. Kinda fun...but WEIRD!"

I'm surprised no one's mentioned "The Green" under least favorites. ( ;

Favorite episodes of mine: Temptation, Deadly Force, Double Jeopardy, Shadows of the Past, MIA, Future Tense, and the Reckoning (and these are assuming the multi-parters don't count).

One episode I always felt that most people were too hard on was Protection. There were several moments in that episode I liked, in particular Goliath's outrage over the idea of people perverting one of the ideals that's most sacred to a gargoyle.

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I don't know who's more foolish: him for going, you for following, or me for not leaving you both." -Demona ("Long Way to Morning")

MATT - And the look on Natsilane's face in response to Grandmother's "roots" line is great, too.
Todd Jensen

I like Grandmother a lot in "Heritage". She makes the whole episode pretty likable for me. Her "... and roots" line is a great one. And I think her rejuvenating the island is pretty cool too.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]

I think there were a couple of scenes which made "Heritage" worth it, such as the scene where Bronx comes to Elisa's rescue from the bear, drives it off, and sticks his head out of the bushes looking pleased with himself, followed by Goliath running up and, when it's clear that Elisa's all right, the two of them hug.
Todd Jensen

Oh,a nd I know we're not supposed to discuss these things here... but man, this video/comic/song is so funny: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOZYtSPNwok

XD

And no, I'm from Europe. So all accusations can be rested aside. ;)

Brook

Yeah, sure... to me it was too much though... :( See, I'm glad we got the London Clan in M.I.A. and the Japanese Clan in BUSHIDO and the Mayan Clan, but... did we really need Mark of the Panther or Walkabouts or Heritage? The awnser of course is yes, see all the current ongoing storylines, but these EP just stood out to me as a bit of a letdown. They felt shallow and hastily written - well researched they were, but I really didn't enjoy most of it. :(

HERITAGE was also delayed in germany - they showed the EP after the last one of TGC, after that they re-started with AWAKENING!! :D I still don't know why, i guess somebody hated that EP. ;)

Oh - and my, reawakening is one great EP. Just watched it, and MY, does that EP kick a certain bodypart!! :D

Brook

You know, knowing alot of people seemed to have problems with the World Tour episodes. I think if Gargoyles had actually continued on World Tour wouldn't have felt so bad in people's memories. World Tour felt like they were introducing alot of characters and what not to use for later storylines. They're just storylines we never got.
Ozzie Arcane - [ozziearcane at yahoo dot com]
"Hello Booby! This is a trap!" - Eggplant Wizard

Brook> "BUSHIDO - why's that? I love that one."

Aside from Yama, (who is a great character and a cool badass) the episode didn't really do much for me. No reason, it just kind of bored me.

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

Least Favorite - Outfoxed, Revelations, The New Olympians, Sentinel and vendettas

Top Favourite - Hunters Moon, The Reckoning, The Gathering and Ill Met By Moonlight

VickyUK - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]

I wonder if Elisa ever sang Row your Boat, or 99 bottles of milk on the wall.. heh, yeah that would be a bit tedious..

I was never too crazy about Walkabout.. seeing Fox and her mom was cool.. but Matrix didn't seem as cool then as he is in Bad Guys..

Shadows of the past .. I wasn't thrilled about either.. Angela looked really weird in that one.. but seeing the possssed stone corpses of the Wyvern clan was interesting..

Hound of Ulster and Sentinel became a lot more interesting.. when I ound out how Nokkar would be a big player in Gargs 2198.. but it still beats me that Elisa got her memory back that quickly without a " yay! you got your memory back" moment...

now Hound of Ulster which of course was going to be a spin-off for Cu Chullin (sp?) and the Banshee.. seemed to overshadow Bronx.. until I read the real the real story of Cu Chullin who was in fact the Hound of Ulster taking over the duties of the one guard dog he killed (not sure if it was a Garg beast or not) but still.. or it could've hinted that Cu Chullin once had a Gargbeast in Ireland.. and the fact that Gargbeasts (at least in Ireland) may have inspired Black Dogs and Hellhounds...

not sure why Heritage was such a boring epsiode.. thoughts?..

yeah, I do wish we saw more of Brook and co back in New York but time constraints I guess.. at least we got to see them in Pendragon, the Green,, and Future Tense (albeit just Puck's illusions but oh well)..

wish we could've done China and Korea.. I always dissapointed the Quartet only got to one place in Asia.. st least we got the Himalayas in Reunions.. wonder if we'll see Sangpo and Dama again..


Brook: you have to remember that even though there are other clans around the world.. they are very small compared to the human population.. not sure about Oberon's children..

Starlioness

@ Ozzie: I also agree with Walkabouts.

Also: Why did so many characters in the WT arc had so many reacurring lines?? I remember some characters saying the exact same things again and again and again. :( Mark of the Panther and Walkabouts just sprung to my mind, the dialogue annoyed me so much back then...

Brook

BUSHIDO - why's that? I love that one.

"What do you guys think of the World Tour episodes? I hear a lot of complaints it, that it was pointless and just a big group of filler episodes. But, personally, I liked most of them on the whole. "

I think the problem was not really the length of it. As Matt stated, it helped us to "identify" with the situation and the lengthy time period.

Personally, I have 3 problems with them: 1.) the recurring themes of different religions, Gargoyles, beliefs and beasts in there. Too many Gargoyles, tricksters, ancient creatures and feys did broaden the canon, but also somehow made our Gargoyles clan look less special: it was just a smaller on out of many surviving clans.
b.) the at times very lazy storylines. Monsters? Heritage? Gimme a break...
c.) Over time, I thought some stories should have had more focus to them, when all we got was a superficial look into things.

But what am I talking of? This is the arc that brought us BUSHIDO, GRIEF, FUTURE TENSE, M.I.A. and THE GREEN!! I don't feel bad about the world tour, but it is at times inconsistent and could have used a darker approach, like the EPs I state above.

Brook

My least favorite episodes were probably Golem, Walk About, and Sentinel. Each of them just had aspects about the episode that annoyed the heck out of me.

My favorite is probably Long Way to Morning. I tend to enjoy just about any episode that involves Demona or the Pack.

Ozzie Arcane - [ozziearcane at yahoo dot com]
"Hello Booby! This is a trap!" - Eggplant Wizard

Favorite Eps> Thrill Of The Hunt, Temptations, Deadly Force, The Edge, Leader Of The Pack, Double Jeopardy, Upgrade, Kingdom, M.I.A., Future Tense, The Gathering, Hunter's Moon.

Least favorite> Legion, Outfoxed, Bushido

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

Either way, I doubt that disease would have wiped out any gargoyle clans in the Americas, unless it was something that stone sleep couldn't cure.
Todd Jensen

Woods> I never said that the Pre-Columbian Native Americans had a low population or were technologically inferior. All I said was that the Native Populations were decimated by the arrival of Europeans, and thus it seems likely that native gargoyle populations may have been hit hard too. And for the record, while disease was certainly a factor, it was hardly the only reason for the demise of the Native American populations.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]

Hey, sorry if this seems a little off topic but I'm just uber-excited about next year for a couple of reasons: 1) I'll be attending the Gathering of the Gargoyles for the 2nd time, which I expect to be extremely awesome next year with it being in LA and all, 2) Not sure if any of you knew this, but here in Key West, Florida we have an annual festival every October called "Fantasy Fest". It takes place during the last 2 weeks of October through Halloween and is pretty much the Mardi Gras of Florida :D You dress up (or not), go downtown and go to many awesome parties and events to enter contests, drink and just have fun! Every year, they have a specific theme and after receiving an outright boring theme this year, I'm ecstatic to discover that 09's theme is "Villains, Vixens and Vampires"! I'll be participating whole-heartedly in next year's Fantasy Fest events, walking in the parade and designing the official poster for the theme. As for my costume, well, I think one of Demona should definitely be in order. I swear, the very first time I saw her emerge beautifully from the shadows in "Awakening I", I thought she was some kind of a vampire (hey, c'mon, I was little when it came out). I think she'd be a perfect choice for next year's Fantasy Fest and as Lex said, "I'm going for it!" I wonder if anyone will recognize the character I'm portraying...?

*squee* I'm so excited! Of course, tons of pictures and videos will be taken of the festival so I can share them with you all XD

VoLpE de FuEgO - [sailorx78 at hotmail dot com]
Lex: It's too WEIRD. Kinda fun...but WEIRD!

Matt: the view that the Americas had a low population and were technologically inferior has become somewhat archaic. One thing is that the Amazonian basin was slowly being terraformed for farming by the locals. The new theory is that the disease was the cause of the downfall of the americas native population. Sorry just my two cents
Woods
"But them pussycats is quick" Mrs. Lovett

Rebel> Considering that Native American HUMANS were all but annihilated from the continent, it is not a surprise to me that only one Native American GARGOYLE clan managed to survive. The advanced Old World humans arriving in the New World surely made short work of the clans they discovered there. Esspecially considering the tendency to spread Christianity and wipe out the native cultures/traditions/mythologies. Of course, all this is assuming there were ever many clans in the Americas in the first place. There may have just been fewer clans there to begin with. Maybe Europe and Asia were gargoyle strongholds since antiquity.

Favorite episodes> Reawakening, The Price, Shadows of the Past, M.I.A., The Hound of Ulster, The Green, Turf, Possession and Hunter's Moon.

Least Fave Episodes> A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time, Monsters, Vendettas.

World Tour> I think when it originally aired, like many people I found it to be long-winded. But part of me feels that that was part of the magic of it. We really felt for the World Travelers. Both our protagonists and the audience felt a near-desperate longing for them to get home. We could relate. And along the way we got a lot of really great stories. Looking back now, I'm so thankful for the World Tour and really wish it would've been a few episodes longer since it really expanded the Gargoyle Universe in a huge way.

One more note of the episode "The Silver Falcon". I can understand why some of you dislike it. Years ago I didn't care for it much either. I remember being in my teens and griping that it only had one gargoyle in it and that it was tedious at times. Over the years, though, I've really grown to appreciate the episode. It is one of the best written episodes in the series and it is really a very cool and complex story. I think that is part of the issue. I think it is generally more interesting to an older, more mature audience than some of the other eps. This is just a thought, but with that in mind, I wonder if perhaps the people who dislike this episode are generally the younger viewers.

Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]

I'd have to go with Heritage as my least favorite episode. I found the setting dreary and the characters not too interesting. I liked other episodes with similar themes, like Mark of the Panther (family roots), Cloud Fathers (Native Americans), and The Green (environment). But Heritage combined all three and then Disneyfied it. Heritage also introduced the first "gargoyles" that looked drastically different than anything before (i.e. more animal-like, less monstrous). When I first saw the episode, it was preposterous that everyone thought Raven and the totem critters were gargoyles. If they stuck it after M.I.A., I may have believed it more.
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]

To amend my earlier comment--I just went and checked the "Gargoyle Nation" article to see which clans survived...and I got to say, I'm a little disappointed that there are THREE asian clans which survive, but no African clans that survive...and I don't see why a Native American clan couldn't have survived in the United States. I also really wish a clan had survived in Germany, Iceland, Finland, or Lithuania. Oh well. Anyway, I still wish that more world tour eps had been devoted to introducing more gargoyle clans.
Rebel

Hmm... I actually like it when the Illuminati are in episodes. They're quite interesting to watch...

I've never not liked an episode. Sure, there are a few which I find somewhat boring, but I don' just 'not like' them. This is all my opinion, of course

lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari

Samuel > I like your thoughts on Desdemona surviving the massacre...I think that would have been really interesting.

I don't know if I'd want specifically Desdemona to survive, but I definitely wish that at least one female gargoyle had survived the massacre (obviously I'm not counting Demona) and been a part of the initial Manhattan clan...perhaps a female from the trio's rookery.

I look forward to Coldstone and Coldfire rejoining their clan. I think Coldfire especially will add a lot to the clan.



There were some episodes on the World Tour that I didn't like too much, but there were some that I loved. I loved all the ones that introduced new gargoyle clans, and I loved the episode "Sanctuary". I also liked "New Olympians". "Heritage" disappointed me because it got my hopes up--I thought there were going to be more gargoyles, but then it turned out that it was just Raven being a trickster. I didn't like "Eye of the Storm" because the episode effectively got rid of the Eye of Odin--which I thought was a huge waste. I would love to have seen what sort of effect the eye would have had on characters like Demona, Brooklyn, and Angela. "Future Tense" didn't introduce any new gargoyles (unless you count the Thailog shock troops), but nonetheless, I absolutely loved it.

In general, I liked the world tour eps that introduced new gargoyles, and didn't like the ones that didn't, although there are some exceptions. I actually wish that some of the world tour eps had been done away with for the sake of introducing more clans on other continents. For example, I would have liked it if, instead of having "Mark of the Panther", we had had an episode which introduced a clan that had survived in Africa, or instead of "Heritage" or "Cloud Fathers", we had had an episode with a surviving clan in the U.S. (not counting the Manhattan and Labyrinth clans, since they aren't native to the U.S.).

Rebel

Boy, it's been a long time since I posted. I've been lurking for ages.

Anyhow. My least favorite episodes tend to shift. I'm not a big fan of episodes featuring the Children of Oberon or the Illuminati.

I think the world tour was too long. I appreciate how much depth it gave the universe, but I just didn't really care for a lot of it. It especially didn't make sense concerning Elisa. I have a lot of difficulty believing that she could keep her job after disappearing for five or six months. Furthermore, she's a dedicated police officer, and I have difficulty believing that she would allow herself to abandon her job for those five or so months.

Although, upon reflection, I suppose she didn't really have much of a choice. She couldn't legally travel back to the US without money, or more importantly a passport and other documentation. On the other hand, it wouldn't have been too difficult for her to get home from Queen Florence Island, maybe even Nigeria. It would have been exceedingly simple for her to travel home from Arizona.

I don't know. I'm waffling at the moment.

On a completely separate topic (to which I expect few responses): I really wish Desdemona had survived the massacre. I feel like she could have served something a romantic foil to Elisa. (out of duty to the propagation of the species if for no other reason) She would have provided a window into gargoyle spirituality. A potential problem with it, however, is that she would compete with Elisa as a foil to Demona. Although, they'd be separated by species... I don't know. She also would have helped the audience understand that gargoyles view hatchlings as their children, regardless of biology, during the introduction of Angela.

Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Noodles, anyone?

Battle Beast >> The Price is not only one of my favorite episodes, it's also the episode I've watched the most! :D
The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>T.T)> Job hunting is a pain...

Charisma82 > Im with you. I liked Dracon episodes.

World Tour > What do you guys think of the World Tour episodes? I hear a lot of complaints it, that it was pointless and just a big group of filler episodes. But, personally, I liked most of them on the whole. Of course, there were a few that I dont like all that much ('Golem' 'Heritage' 'Shadows of the Past' 'Cloud Fathers') but on the whole, I like the World Tour. I loved getting to go to new places and, even better, meeting more of the garg Clans and other supernatural stuff that lives around the world. Some episodes are also setting up for the spin offs. I think the World Tour gave us a chance to see the world and understand (and help Goliath understand) that there is a whole wide world outside of the city limits of Manhattan.

What are your thoughts on the World Tour?

Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

I guess it has to do with the fact that Dracon looks a bit "forged" in most EPs. Think about it, he's not quite an arch nemesis, more of a sleazy criminal, at least to me.

He was OK and all, but I think something more "Falcone/Maroni" would have done good. :)

Brook

Least favorite has to be "Vendettas" and "Golem", the first of the two being my all time least favorite. I don't think I've seen either of these episodes in a few years, just 'cause I don't think about them much.

My top favorites ever? ('cause I have about a list of 10-15 of favorites, but my favorites from my favorites are...) "The Mirror" "Vows" "Turf" "Possession" & "The Reckoning".

Lots of people say that they don't like Tony Dracon's episodes, but I always kind of liked them. Tony was Elisa's arch nemisis in the way Xanatos was the gargoyles'. I liked seeing Elisa at work, not forgetting that she had a job to do besides helping the gargoyles out on her breaks.

Charisma82
Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies.

My least favorite episodes are any that have to do with the Illuminati. So 'The Silver Falcon' and 'Revelations' come to mind right away. After that is 'Outfoxed' and 'Golem'.

Favorite episodes would be any that have to do with Coldstone and the gargoyles within him; any episodes on the tour in which we meet new gargoyle Clans; episodes about the Mutates; plus 'The Mirror' and 'Mark of the Panther'.

I seem to have a lot of favorite episodes ^_^

Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

The weakest episode... hurm... t's qite hard to say which one is the weakest outside the Avalon arc for me, for I remember liking most of them, even the aforementioned Broaday and Tony Dracon EPs that feel a bit lazy.

OK, lemme see, I went just through a list of EPs: HERITAGE, MONSTERS, MARK OF THE PANTHER, NEW OLYMPIANS and CLOUD FATHERS spring to my mind as some I thought were a bit needless... GOLEM I can't remember... But these stick out, especially MONSTERS, that I found "kitsch" and HERITAGE, an EP that simply annoyed me. MotP, NO and CF were all a bit... I dunno, not my taste, MARK, HERITAGE and CF are essentially quite the same in structure, build up and ending... I would have cut these out.

NO was just "too much" for me. "Oh, so there we have Atlantis, and there are the New Olympians, which are freaky creatures mixed up out of some classic mythological beings/gods/monsters... I dunno, I'm not a big NO fan...

My favourite EP... Long Way Till Morning is quite intense, although it doesn't feature Brooklyn a lot.

God, I gotta review the show. :D

Brook

After a long absence...

My least favorite Episode? "Vendetta's," "The Silver Falcon," "Golem," are among my least favs.

My Fav? Hands down, "The Price."

Battle beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

My least favorite episodes are the episodes that focus on Broadway or organized crime...I just don't find Tony Dracon to be a very compelling villain at all, especially when compared to people like Xanatos or Demona.

"The Silver Falcon", "Protection", and "Deadly Force" all kind bore me..."Deadly Force" is the best of these three though, IMO. I like "Turf" a little more, but mostly because of the story between Angela and the Trio, not because of the Dracon/Brode story.

Rebel

My two least favorites are "Protection" and "Vendettas." "Protection" was one of the only episodes where I felt like I was well ahead of the story the whole way through. I never believed that Elisa was anything but undercover and even if it wasn't the intention, it felt like the story wanted me to think that. It also felt like a waste of a title, considering how important the concept of protection is to gargoyles. "Vendettas" felt like two stories that could have each made very good episodes on their own, but didn't really mesh well. The return of Hakon's chost just seemed like too serious and important an event to bogged down by Vinnie's Wile E. Coyote styled attempts to get his revenge on Goliath. It's interesting to note that these are also two of the most comedy-heavy episodes of the series. It's not to say I don't like comedy or comedy in "Gargoyles," but both of these seemed to cross the line and just become too silly.

Mind you, I don't hate either of these episodes and I think both have good aspects to them. My least favorite episodes of "Gargoyles" compare quite favorably to most episodes of certain other shows.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

I'm pretty sure it's Vendettas. Maybe something else will come to mind, but that sounds about right. (Monsters popped into my head first, but I think that's for Worst Animation, definitely not Worst Episode.)
bluewyvern
"Attend the petty jealousies and angers that prey upon your heart."

I have a question for the group. Not counting the Goliath Chronicles, which episode(s) is everyones least favorite?
Adam - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]

That was the most by-the-book and least complicated Top Ten I think this Room has ever seen. Just a random thought...
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]

Sad news: the novelist Tony Hillerman has passed away at age 83. For those who don't know, Hillerman was the author of numerous detective stories set among the Navajo people of the southwestern US. Greg Weisman has cited his work as an influence on "Gargoyles," particularly the episodes "Cloud Fathers." He will be missed, but his work will live on.

Click my name for the New York Times article on his passing.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

*SIGH* 10th. OH well, at least I made the count down...
lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari

9th
Justin - [jlindley07 at gmail dot com]

Eighth(8th)!
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]

7th
VickyUK - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]

Sixth!
Spen
"Ad-lib excitement."

Fifth!
Ricky

fourth!
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka

3rd ^_^ Wow, my first time ever participating in this LoL
VoLpE de FuEgO - [sailorx78 at hotmail dot com]
too tired to type one T_T

Second. Hello new week!
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

First.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Oh Lord, please help our athletes bring home the gold. Enough gold so we can melt it down and buy back our economy from the Chinese."