Comment Room Archive : Gargoyles : Station Eight

"The Last Airbender"> I loved the "Avatar" TV series and I've been following this whole debate about the casting of the leads. Now granted, "Avatar" is set in a fantasy world, but as many fans of the show have pointed out, it's a fantasy world that draws heavily on Asian (and some Inuit) culture. We're not just talking about the fact that the bending styles are all based on real martial art. We're talking about everything from the architecture to the food to the costume design to the calligraphy to the food. So even if the character designs don't go out of there way to portray all of the main characters as non-Caucasian, you would think that the filmmakers might consider casting Asian actors in at least some of the main roles. But, as I understand it, all four of the main characters are played by Caucasian actors, including Zuko, who is the most obviously Asian in the animated series. The actor who's been cast as Sokka didn't help things by saying something along the lines of "Well, I'll definitely have to get a tan." The casting director really didn't help things during the casting call for extras by saying something like "If you're Korean, wear your kimono. If you're German, bring your leiderhosen," as if the whole controversy is just a big silly joke. (Also, traditional Korean garments are not called kimonos.)

This seems to have highlighted the bigger problem of Asian-American actors feeling like there are very few roles for them in general. Intentionally or not, the filmmakers appear to be saying that they're happy to have Asian-American actors play background characters or act as set dressing, but the lead roles are always going to go to Caucasians.

As for me, I already wasn't really excited for the movie to start with. Why? Because "Avatar" is already a wonderful animated TV series and the best that a live-action movie version of it can do is to make me say "Actually, they did a pretty good job staying faithful to the show." I've really never understood Hollywood's need to turn perfectly good (or less than perfectly good) animated TV shows into big budget live-action films. It doesn't always end badly, but my usual initial response is to write them off, because I'm almost always going to like the animation better.

Brook> What you're talking about, by your own admission, is an odd remake of/homage to a classic film Western. A film reworking of another film. I'm fine with that. Redo "Seven Samurai" as "The Magnificent Seven" or pull from "Hidden Fortress" to make "Star Wars," and I'll watch both. The problem is, this isn't somebody making their own take on an existing movie. This is the one, official, live-action "Avatar" movie. There will probably never be another theatrical "Avatar" film (meaning a film that takes another stab at telling the story, not the potential sequels.) If this movie doesn't do a good job of representing what "Avatar" is, there's no do-over. Imagine if a live-action "Gargoyles" movie actually was getting made, but the filmmakers said, "We've decided that every named human character - from Elisa down to Officer Morgan - is going to be Caucasian and the gargoyles originally come from Washington state instead of Scotland." I imagine we fans would be pretty furious, because the film would not be an accurate representation of what "Gargoyles" is and because there would probably never be another opportunity as big as a feature film to show the general public why they should care about "Gargoyles."
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Sun, Mar 8, 2009 9:29:50 pm EDT from 146.115.115.33

Othello> Her older self heard it from her older self who heard it from her older self who heard it from her older self who heard it from her older self who heard it from her older self who heard it from her older self who heard it from her older self who heard it from her older self who heard it from her older self who heard it from her older self who heard it from her older self....

It's an endless loop. See?
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]
DING DONG THE WITCH IS DEAD!!!!
posted @ Sun, Mar 8, 2009 9:08:20 pm EDT from 76.95.180.59

I meant how did either of them know it. I know they heard it from themselves but how did she first know it?
Othello
GargFan
posted @ Sun, Mar 8, 2009 9:06:53 pm EDT from 70.162.249.61

Othello> How does Demona know the incantation? She heard it from her older self.
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]
DING DONG THE WITCH IS DEAD!!!!
posted @ Sun, Mar 8, 2009 8:55:15 pm EDT from 76.95.180.59

In Vows, how does Demona know the incantation for the Phoenix Gate? Was it in the Grimorum or something?
Othello
GargFan
posted @ Sun, Mar 8, 2009 8:51:54 pm EDT from 70.162.249.61

Water tribe kids > I don't know about Sokka (can't remember for sure) but Kitara always looked Caucasian to me...albeit a dark caucasian. She has big blue eyes, and normally only Caucasians have those.

Goliath in the "Mirror" > I think Goliath looked sexier than the others in "The Mirror" because he is simply more conventionally "hunky" than the others are, not because he was tan.
Rebel
posted @ Sun, Mar 8, 2009 8:41:07 pm EDT from 75.65.27.129

Hey, whats up? I could,nt post because my computer broke down. Anyway, Is there really going to be a spider-man 4? Because I've been hearing rumors about it coming out in like 2009 or 2010.
Othello
GargFan
posted @ Sun, Mar 8, 2009 8:26:45 pm EDT from 70.162.249.61

@ Patrick: I just watched THE GOOD, THE BAD AND THE WEIRD.

The film is a quasi remake of THE GOOD, THE BAD AND THE UGLY by a very, VERY good Korean director (the guy who made A TALE OF TWO SISTERS and A BITTERSWEET LIFE, the first one of the best films ever per se, and the second one a very very stylish and good action drama).

It was set in the manchurian desert and only starred korean and japanese actors, in full western gear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imgdpz_0m-8

The crowd was cheering. Very, very good film.
And trust me, loads of Leone fanboys in there.

Point I want to make is - it doesn't matter, if enough is put into the film. (effort, not money)
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Sun, Mar 8, 2009 7:44:58 pm EDT from 84.191.206.7

OMG. Goliath is one sexy manwich. Sry for the double post...couldn't keep it in. ;)
Sasha
posted @ Sun, Mar 8, 2009 7:35:39 pm EDT from 96.26.199.43

yeah, I knew that...I just slipped on my verbage. Cloud Fathers was pretty clear about that.
Sasha
posted @ Sun, Mar 8, 2009 7:34:03 pm EDT from 96.26.199.43

I can't remember what I thought when Elisa's heritage was revealed, but I do remember that it took till the World Tour episode for me to get a clue, that Elisa's father was a Native American.

But I always found it a bit unfair, that in "The Mirror" the Hudson, Lexington, etc. had to run around a pasty white (and Broadway with that ridiculous hair cut), while Goliath looked so sexy.
Anonymouse
posted @ Sun, Mar 8, 2009 7:32:55 pm EDT from 89.246.163.121

Brook > "Completely relocated" to where? There's a limit to how much alteration the hardcore fans will stomach, and a point at which even the casual moviegoer begins to wonder what the point of the film is to begin with if the majority of it bears no resemblance to the supposed source material.
Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"Could it possibly be? Are the old legends true? It is! It's the fabled lost city of Atlanta!" - Prof. Farnsworth, "Futurama"
posted @ Sun, Mar 8, 2009 7:31:52 pm EDT from 173.88.144.38

Sasha> Elisa is black and Native American. Not hispanic. Her mother is Nigerian and her father is Hopi.
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]
DING DONG THE WITCH IS DEAD!!!!
posted @ Sun, Mar 8, 2009 7:23:15 pm EDT from 76.95.180.59

I think the 4 nations in Avatar were meant to represent a world wide ethnicity. The water tribes all seemed to be more Native American-ish, the Air Nomads always struck me as the tibetian type, the Fire Nation looked very Asian (though to be specific, I should say East Asian...remember that countries like India are still "Asian"), and the Earth Kingdom tended to lean more toward the caucasian side (though I wouldn't call Toph Caucasian).

I was not a fan of the whole Jesse McCartny as Zuko thing. Ack. I think the ethnicity plays an important part of the casting and I'm sad to see them kinda slip on that, but I'll reserve judgement until I see how well everyone acts their parts.

And to be fair, I do think cartoons tend to blur the ethnic lines...which is a good thing I guess. lol. I didn't even realize Elisa Maza was black/Hispanic until I saw her brother and that family pic on her tv!
Sasha - [burienprincess at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Sun, Mar 8, 2009 7:21:16 pm EDT from 96.26.199.43

Uhm, but guys, uh, if the film is completely relocated, isn't that OK?

I mean, nowadays, relocating characters is one of the lesser changes you can do.

OH, in retrospect... that WATCHMEN film was pretty good, actually. I was disappointed with some of the changes near gthe ending and some unnecessary violence where the "original happening" are far more gruesome, yet less bloody. :(
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Sun, Mar 8, 2009 6:59:16 pm EDT from 84.191.206.7

Brook and Patrick > Patrick has the right idea of it. They have actors with the wrong ethnicity. I mean, for crying out loud, they were going to have Jesse McCartney as Zuko for a time! At least they fixed that up. But the boy they have for Aang? He's from Texas and the only thing we know about him is that he seems to be a martial arts master.

Rebel > Well, what about the Water Tribe siblings? People of the Water Tribe are darker skinned than the rest of the Avatar world but the actors for them are Caucasian. Heck, Sokka is being played by an actor who was a very pale vampire in Twilight.

Its just my opinion but my friends and I are not very pleased with the acting choices, as I know many other fans are as well.
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs
posted @ Sun, Mar 8, 2009 6:32:17 pm EDT from 173.69.136.72

Zuko and his sister definitely look asian to me. But I think the rest of the main characters could be represented by actors/actresses who are either caucasian OR asian.
Rebel
posted @ Sun, Mar 8, 2009 6:21:52 pm EDT from 75.65.27.129

Uhm, the Cameron-Avatar-movie is not the "The Last Airbender" movie. The movie to "Avatar - The last Airbender" is only called "The last Airbender" due to a naming dispute involving the Cameron film.

Avatar - The Last Airbender, the cartoon, was broadcasted in Europe (Nickelodeon, or are the called only Nick now, in Germnay for example). Otherwise your favourite search engine (Google, Yahoo, MSN) and Wikipedia are your friends.
Anonymouse
posted @ Sun, Mar 8, 2009 6:14:09 pm EDT from 89.246.163.121

Clearly of non-Caucasian ethnicity? I'm not sure about that. I mean yes, Avatar clearly takes place in a very asian-influenced world with very asian-looking costumes and hairstyles, but to me a lot of the characters look like they could be caucasian. They could certainly also be asian, but they don't look clearly asian to me, in terms of ethnicity. Many of them look like they could go either way. Cartoon animation often strips the characters of any defining traits that make them look like they clearly belong to one ethnicity or another, so they don't necessarily look "asian" or "caucasian" or "black", or whatever.
Rebel
posted @ Sun, Mar 8, 2009 6:12:31 pm EDT from 75.65.27.129

could u post some links? i'd like to know more about avatar pls
giza
posted @ Sun, Mar 8, 2009 5:55:31 pm EDT from 80.183.66.70

The poor casting choices that people are upset about is the choosing of all Caucasian actors for roles that are clearly of non-Caucasian ethnicity in the cartoon. It's not an issue of picking from the "D-list" or whether a various actors have the skills or the emotional range of Keanu Reeves.

And I just found the button up on the top of the page here that makes the text size change. Gorebash, that's awesome.
Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Sun, Mar 8, 2009 5:35:06 pm EDT from 173.88.144.38

@ Litwofl: I dunno... the casting is pretty decent (take a look at the Dragonball xasting to know what I mean. Except for Emily Rossum, all of em are D-class. Plus Giovanni Ribisi is fantastic) and James Cameron is (apart from TITANIC, which he only directed to gather the money to do some underwater-camera-action) a good director...

Wasn't too thrilled bout the show, but let's wait and see.
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Sun, Mar 8, 2009 5:27:57 pm EDT from 84.191.206.7

Rebel > Thats what theyre doing. Each of the three seasons is being made into a film. But thats still ten hours of a cartoon being condensed into a two hour movie with all of the fans lining up to nitpick over it. Theyve already made really poor acting choices which is why Ill only be watching it for the special effects.

It will be 2010 when the first one is finidhed. I guess we'll just have to wait and see for ourselves.
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs
posted @ Sun, Mar 8, 2009 1:37:03 pm EDT from 173.69.136.72

If I were the people making the Avatar movie, there's no way I'd try to fit the whole series into one film. I'd probably try to have one movie for each season or so.
Rebel
posted @ Sun, Mar 8, 2009 1:26:57 pm EDT from 75.65.27.129

The Avatar movie? Oh I am terrified to see that. The only thing I have any real hope of enjoying is the special effects like the bending and Appa and Momo. Hopefully they wont mess that up. The show was amazing but I fear the movie is going to be a terrible interpritation just for the sake of making money. Even if half the episodes in a season were filler, I still dont know how theyll fit in everything they need/want to have in a two hour movie. Might as well just show the first two and last two episodes of the first season. Oh well, Ill still put my money towards it and go see it in theatres, even if I will be shaking in my seat the whole time ^_^
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs
posted @ Sun, Mar 8, 2009 1:22:41 pm EDT from 173.69.136.72

i have never seen that toon did it show in europe?
giza
posted @ Sun, Mar 8, 2009 11:44:45 am EDT from 79.3.157.10

I know that because I looked it up last night. He based his voicework for Sokka off of Jim Carrey but he sounds a lot more like Will Friedle. I mean listen to Friedle's voice and compare it to DeSena's voice. I don't know why they didn't hire Friedle maybe he was just busy. Maybe he'll play Sokka in the live-action movie lol.
spideyforever
posted @ Sun, Mar 8, 2009 11:41:59 am EDT from 75.118.152.5

spideyforever> He was voiced by an actor named Jack DeSena.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_DeSena
Antiyonder
posted @ Sun, Mar 8, 2009 7:05:45 am EDT from 96.25.38.137

Spideyforever> The creators have, in the past, stated they would like to return to the world they've created. Not sure if they have concrete plans, but they have expressed interest. Considering they have a whole world and any point in the past or future to play with, the story could be anything. I actually like that.
Asatira
posted @ Sat, Mar 7, 2009 10:15:24 pm EST from 68.190.20.172

Questions about Avatar

1. Are they going to make a show about a new Avatar? Aing could be what Roku was.

2. Is Sokka voiced by Will Friedle? I don't think so but it sounds so much like him.
spideyforever
posted @ Sat, Mar 7, 2009 9:20:29 pm EST from 75.118.152.5

Yeah, I knew it was coming to a close. A three season setup worked well for the show actually. It advanced the story at a good pace without belabouring it at the end. Sad to see it go though. Still feel Gargoyles should have had its official 3rd season on the air.

I love the elemental themes. Air, Fire, Earth, Water. Brings me back to the days of Captian Planet. Now there was a show! lol.
Sasha - [burienprincess at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Sat, Mar 7, 2009 8:38:31 pm EST from 96.26.199.43

I've made a Twitter page for Gargoyles, TSS-M, and other Greg news: http://twitter.com/GargoylesNews

My intention is aggregate all available news so that people don't have to read through all the s8 comments or rely on Greg to post. I don't mean to step on anyone else's website efforts: Twitter is really popular in its own right and maybe we can attract people who don't normally Google around for Gargoyles websites.

To get updates you can follow me on Twitter, subscribe to the automated RSS feed, or just check the site directly. I'll still post newsworthy stuff here.

Let me know if anyone has any news tips, people to follow, or design suggestions.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter feed]
posted @ Sat, Mar 7, 2009 7:59:25 pm EST from 216.250.163.157

Actually, Avatar was always intended to be a 3 Season show. Some people expected there to be a Book 4 Air, but the main character already mastered the Air element. The other Books (Water, Earth and Fire) were the elements he needed to master.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Mar 7, 2009 7:38:24 pm EST from 71.120.226.102

I think I liked Power Rangers for all of 10 minutes when the series (origianl) first aired. And I was in the target age range at the time.

You want to know the best cartoon to come out since Gargoyles?? AVATAR!! Nickelodeon picked up a winner there, and sadly, like Gargoyles, it's already come and gone. But I hear they're planning a spin off and a live action movie... which has me aboslutely drooling.
Sasha - [burienprincess at hotmail dot com]
Sashapasha
posted @ Sat, Mar 7, 2009 7:32:47 pm EST from 96.26.199.43

PR grates on my nerves like E**n P*xx did from TGC
Wingless
posted @ Sat, Mar 7, 2009 7:21:45 pm EST from 99.245.254.123

i just hated power ranger >.<
giza
posted @ Sat, Mar 7, 2009 6:27:15 pm EST from 79.56.159.19

Antiyonder- I'd say 1,2, were the best ones and 11 and 12 are the best modern ones. Ninja Storm was an awesome series and the main reason I liked Dino Thunder was because Tommy Oliver my favorite original ranger was in it. I have one question about it though.

Why was there no 6th ranger? If there was a 6th ranger who would it have been? Jason(original red ranger) Adam(second black ranger) Kimberly(original ranger) Kat(Kimberly's replacement or) some newby?
spideyforever
posted @ Sat, Mar 7, 2009 6:23:07 pm EST from 75.118.152.5

anti> sure however i don't like kim possible and i see a lot of japanese style in american dragon
giza
posted @ Sat, Mar 7, 2009 5:51:15 pm EST from 79.56.159.19

As for Disney Animation, Kim Possible and American Dragon: Jake Long were decent.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Mar 7, 2009 5:38:20 pm EST from 71.120.226.102

Giza> There's good American animation and bad American animation, then there's good anime and bad anime. Neither are completely superior to the other.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Mar 7, 2009 5:36:25 pm EST from 71.120.226.102

maybe it is an other thing that we have to value... look now there are a lot of anime in the world and they have a lot of success instead american animation (save some particular cases) try to copy japanese anime.. for example to you remember a disney cartoon that is very good? i mean in this last 5 years
giza
posted @ Sat, Mar 7, 2009 5:29:31 pm EST from 79.56.159.19

Demonskrye> I think the thing that Power Rangers had on it's side was lack of expectations. Come Goliah Chronicles, Disney was expecting Gargoyles to beat Power Rangers in the rating. Ironically when Power Rangers was conceived, it was planned as a simple 40 episode show which would be on Fox for a short while and well, exceeded expectation.

Now if Disney had lower expectations for the third season, the results probably would have been different.

spideyforever> Truth be told, I see the first 5 seasons as guilty pleasure which would every now and then have quality moments. The writing actually went up for the 6-10, then Disney took over. The 11th and 12th Season were certainly better than 1-5, but not so much better than 6-10.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Mar 7, 2009 4:28:24 pm EST from 71.120.226.102

Irina> If you read the article, the concern that the show was too violent only caused the show to be taken off the air in New Zealand (and possibly some other countries) and that was back in the 90s. The possible cancellation of the show altogether has nothing to do with the violence concerns.

The Goliath Chronicles was produced through Nelvana. As I understand it, this meant it was animated by a different batch of studios. (Most animated series are animated at multiple overseas studios, not just one. "Gargoyles" was animated partly in Japan and partly, I believe, in Korea, possibly at other studios in other locations as well.)
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Sat, Mar 7, 2009 3:31:47 pm EST from 146.115.115.33

Demonskrye-ok, I see. That makes sense. I didnt think of it. But I guess i jsut got the impression that part of the reason that Disney stopped filming is because it is too violent for children here. lol. But it that case, why did they spot making it? they could've just showed it to the American kids.

Anyways, I got a question. I noticed that in the Goliath Cronicles not only did the story-lines get boring, but the animation got alot worse too. Any idea why that is? Did they stop animating it in Japan as they used to?
Irina
posted @ Sat, Mar 7, 2009 3:02:17 pm EST from 68.236.185.9

It's about time. The old school Power Rangers were the best and the new ones just butchered it. Good Riddance
spideyforever
posted @ Sat, Mar 7, 2009 3:01:52 pm EST from 75.118.152.5

I don't know...Power Rangers is based primarily on footage from Japanese Sentai series. Maybe they're just filming the English bits somewhere else?

I claim ignorance, though, since I was really into Power Rangers when I was ten, but I stopped watching it shortly after they introduced the second set of Zords. I still have several of my old toys from that time, and have been buying back some used Pink Ranger stuff for my pterosaur collection, but I have a strong feeling it would be one of those childhood favourites that I'd despise instantly on re-contact.
Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream" -- Shirley Jackson
posted @ Sat, Mar 7, 2009 1:41:22 pm EST from 216.36.154.204

the problem about gargoyles was the fact that the last series isn't not good as the first and the second abc or disney saw that with Power ranger they did much moneys than with gargoyles so they decided to delete gargoyles and hold power rangers

however greg could have another change for gargoyles (maybe but i'm not sure..) he have to prove that SLG comic's gargoyles go in very good way but i thinj and i alwais said that it is too hard
giza
posted @ Sat, Mar 7, 2009 12:21:25 pm EST from 79.56.159.19

No one in television likes to say the "C" word, but just ask Chevy Chase or Matt LeBlanc what it means when you're told a show has been "dropped."
Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Sat, Mar 7, 2009 12:12:18 pm EST from 173.88.144.38

Power Rangers> Not to rain on anyone's parade, but I'm going to side with Anonymouse and hold off on the celebrations until we get some more confirmation. While I wouldn't be too surprised if it did turn out that the latest incarnation of Power Rangers would be the last, it does look like the article could just be saying that the show will no longer be produced in New Zealand. "At this stage we will not be shooting another season" could just be non-committal showbiz professional speak for "the show has been canceled," but it could also mean that the studio is just looking for somewhere they could produce the show that would be even more cost efficient. The only other mentions of this news that I've seen online so far refer back to this article. So until we have true independent confirmation that the show is indeed over, I'll be taking the information with a grain of salt.

Why did Power Rangers get better ratings and last so much longer than Gargoyles did? I think the simple answer is that it's, well, simple. The show keeps its plot to a very young kid friendly, easy to understand good vs. evil premise. There's plenty of exciting martial arts action and robots. There's very little continuity and the series revamps itself or introduces a new set of characters and concepts every season, so a kids who sees an episode in the middle of a season first is unlikely to be all that confused. The toys continue to sell reasonably well, probably because of their generic nature. Kids who have never seen the series can easily grasp the simple concept and Grandma can bet told that little Billy wants the blue Power Ranger and have a reasonably good chance of buying the right toy. Gargoyles, on the other hand, demanded a lot more from its audience in terms of tuning in for every episode and actually thinking. I'm not saying that only extremely simple shows with the broadest possible appeal to kids can succedd, but it clearly doesn't seem to hurt.

Irina> Different countries have different standards about what's appropriate for children. In some countries, it's not permitted to even have the word "war" in the title of a show or toyline aimed at kids. Sometimes a sensational crime that gets a lot of media attention will prompt officials to ban a show or certain types of shows, despite a relatively tenuous connection between the show and the event.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Sat, Mar 7, 2009 12:00:21 pm EST from 146.115.115.33

maybe we will see japanese spiderman in tv insteand power ranger however i think that you should see it before me... often some series start in U.S.A than come in Europe ^^
giza
posted @ Sat, Mar 7, 2009 11:40:11 am EST from 79.56.159.19

I won't say I hated the series (the first seasons were fun to watch for campiness, and there were one or two later on worth some checking out), but I am glad that Power Rangers is done. I think it's been dragged out for too long, and not necessarily for the better. *raises glass in praise of the end*
Asatira
posted @ Sat, Mar 7, 2009 11:29:46 am EST from 68.190.20.172

I never knew that Power Rangers was owned my Disney...But thank god its done with. And did that article say that it was too violent!lol thats the sillies thing I've ever heard.
Irina
posted @ Sat, Mar 7, 2009 11:12:27 am EST from 68.236.185.9

The article seems pretty clear to me: A long-running US children's television series, which is filmed in New Zealand and employs local actors and production crew, is about to be dropped. / The production manager for the show, Sally Campbell, told the Weekend Herald that "at this stage we will not be shooting another season".

Hasta la vista, baby. It's dead, Jim. Stick a fork in it, it's done.
Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"All dead, there's only one thing you can do. Go through his pockets and look for loose change." - Miracle Max, "The Princess Bride"
posted @ Sat, Mar 7, 2009 10:41:57 am EST from 173.88.144.38

simpson is an other series and an other discussion i'd like to know why disney buy copyrigt on power rangers... money? franchesing? often the story is so bad and with a logical sense
giza
posted @ Sat, Mar 7, 2009 9:00:21 am EST from 79.56.159.19

Am I just misunderstanding the article or does it not say anywhere that Power Rangers is cancelled?
As far as I understand the article, they are just not filming in New Zealand anymore.

Maybe the fliming just goes elsewhere or takes the complete Japanese sentai footage instead of just the fight scenes.
Anonymouse
posted @ Sat, Mar 7, 2009 7:41:32 am EST from 89.246.195.81

The Simpsons is another show that's live past the point where there's any new stories to tell.
Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Sat, Mar 7, 2009 7:30:47 am EST from 173.88.144.38

Yes finally Power Rangers is axed. I really hated that show.
VickyUK - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]
posted @ Sat, Mar 7, 2009 3:49:38 am EST from 205.188.116.10

Finally. Going Going Power Rangers Gone.
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Sat, Mar 7, 2009 3:38:19 am EST from 69.54.209.20

http://www.marvel.com/animation/Japanese_Spider-Man/start/237

First "Spider-Man" episode is up and with English Subs to boot.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Mar 7, 2009 1:05:22 am EST from 71.120.226.102

*Ding, Dong power rangers is dead!* Some happy news to go into the weekend with. Can't help but wonder what we would have gotten if Disney had putten as much time, money & effort into keeping Gargoyles alive as they did that painful series.
Wingless
posted @ Sat, Mar 7, 2009 12:09:20 am EST from 99.245.254.123

I love the site update.

As for the Dragon Ball movie I think it might be okay but is gonna suck big time compared to the anime/manga.
spideyforever
posted @ Fri, Mar 6, 2009 11:56:18 pm EST from 75.118.152.5

Antiyonder> I concur. Thank god they've finally letting the cash cow die; it ran out of milk long ago.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Fri, Mar 6, 2009 9:35:28 pm EST from 99.187.186.151

As some who enjoyed the earlier seasons, the show has definitely been on longer than it should have.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Mar 6, 2009 8:34:09 pm EST from 71.120.226.102

gxb - I was wondering when that franchise would finally die.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happened to simplicity?
posted @ Fri, Mar 6, 2009 8:08:02 pm EST from 98.20.242.38

Greg> Thank God!
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Fri, Mar 6, 2009 7:56:33 pm EST from 75.156.190.146

This may be a tad on the immature side, but I don't care.

Fellow "Gargoyles" fans. The beast... is finally dead...

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=10560372

::Passes out glasses of Dom Perignon::

To this day, I am still amazed that a majority of kids chose to watch insipid trash like this over "Gargoyles."
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]
DING DONG THE WITCH IS DEAD!!!!
posted @ Fri, Mar 6, 2009 7:49:50 pm EST from 76.95.180.59

well i read some answer that greg give to people that want to know about the end of the animation series and TGC it seems that a part of his heart was dead when disney did that we saw...
giza
posted @ Fri, Mar 6, 2009 4:16:46 pm EST from 79.22.154.15

@ Giza: I know all the originals and saw them before the (mostly bad) remakes.

Just watching Uninvited for that girl, as stated. :D

And the Ring was almost on par with Ring.
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Fri, Mar 6, 2009 2:04:52 pm EST from 84.191.222.149

oh wow, I havent been here in only one week! and everything changed so much! I love it Gives the site a bit of a modern twist :)

And Demonskrye-, that video from India is hilarious!! lol

And reading a bit from the earlier comments, some you you were talking about new avatars. Well, I'd like to suggest a better one of Demona. There are so many better images of her out there. And personally I think this is the worst one.
Irina
posted @ Fri, Mar 6, 2009 12:12:43 pm EST from 68.236.185.9

but it is a copy... is it better to see an original that a copy?
giza
posted @ Fri, Mar 6, 2009 11:45:02 am EST from 79.22.154.15

Don't forget Asian Horrorfilms like Ring (THE RING), Ju-On (The Grudge), Kairo (Pulse) A Tale of Two Sisters (The Uninvited) and One Missed Call (Uh... what was that called, Death Phone??). Unnecesary and not creppy...
OK, except for RING.
I have to admit though, that I'd probably watch "The Uninvited". Although this will be the worst of all of them (A Tale of Two Sisters is not only a great Horror film, but also a perfectly directd, stylised and thought out drama, that is one of the best films I've ever seen and I've seen thousands), I adore the main actress. Uhm... yeah...
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Fri, Mar 6, 2009 11:40:41 am EST from 84.191.222.149

yes i see maybe a copy of gargoyles too LOL
giza
posted @ Fri, Mar 6, 2009 11:16:38 am EST from 79.22.154.15

Well, I guess I can understand why other countries would want to make their own versions of live-action American shows. But why make a new version of a cartoon? They could have just dubbed the American power-puff girls.
Rebel
posted @ Fri, Mar 6, 2009 11:01:13 am EST from 198.175.205.251

Don't forget India!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0R8iy0CSzU&feature=related

It does have a Spider...ummmm....person in it. And nothing whatsoever that makes an ounce of sense.

And then there's this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgOH_GKkflQ

"Wow, 'Powerpuff Girls' is really great! I know! We'll me our own Japanese version which is exactly like 300 million other Japanese cartoons! Yay!"

I agree with Giza that the US seems to be joining the "bad reworking of another country's creative product" competition with the "Dragonball" movie, which looks like it was shot in someone's backyard for $300.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Fri, Mar 6, 2009 9:46:48 am EST from 146.115.115.33

yeah i just see it on youtube some time ago LOL they prefer that spiderman not our spiderman however why do we create our dragonball too?
giza
posted @ Fri, Mar 6, 2009 9:07:07 am EST from 79.22.154.15

Uh... WTF?

Seriously... what was THAT???

Especially Captain America... totally disturbing...

And that "mice"/guinnea pig looked so cute...
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Fri, Mar 6, 2009 8:21:57 am EST from 84.191.222.149

Antiyonder> The one with the giant robot? Well that should be different, though personaly
I prefer the evil Turkish Spider-Man

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LaXMFAKnBA
Algernon
posted @ Fri, Mar 6, 2009 7:10:53 am EST from 149.157.1.180

Not sure how many people here if any have heard of the show, but according to this YouTube link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MxGtH-2duM

Marvel.com will be showing episodes of the Japanese Spider-Man show.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 10:55:46 pm EST from 71.120.226.102

Gore> Well I wasn't entirely right. I thought it was a question of money (not necessarily what Greg was getting paid, but the per episode budget), but it sounds like it was more about creative control and production schedule. But it does sound like, for whatever reason, some of the higher-ups just didn't want Greg on "Gargoyles" anymore.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 8:52:27 pm EST from 146.115.115.33

Heh, has anyone noticed the little Phoenix gate on the top right of the new website? Click it it it randomly takes you to another Garg related website. Very cute Gore ^_^
Wingless
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 8:51:47 pm EST from 99.245.254.123

Gore: I love you. :)

However, What I ddi not love so much was the WATCHMEN movie. Let me say it this way: first half: brilliant. Third quarter: OK. Fourth quarter: confused, rushed, not good.

Shame. :(
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 7:33:22 pm EST from 84.191.213.50

Wow the once in a blue moon times were I actually have something to say. I like the layout gorebash! Great job:) It's nice to see the relugars around for a change. Anyway hi everyone! + exits stage left +
Dan
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 7:17:58 pm EST from 64.12.117.67

I didn't mean to open a can of worms!

D. Taina> YOu may have your hands full making Avatars!

But, I posted a link to the image of the Avatar I'd like...

http://www.geocities.com/battlebeast3/favgarg2.jpg

but whatever. It's not a main character or a priority...

I love the new site... can't say enough about it.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 7:12:16 pm EST from 75.156.190.146

Well it's different. I'll say that.
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 7:06:07 pm EST from 69.54.209.24

Wow love the new changes
VickyUK - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 7:00:28 pm EST from 205.188.116.10

Also, I think the existing Angela avatar isn't really that good. She looks off-model to me. I think it would be good to add another one--I think Angela looks her best in the first few minutes of "Shadows of the Past."
Rebel
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 6:57:32 pm EST from 75.65.27.129

D Tania > If youre taking requests for avatars, Ive always wanted the shot of Bronx from Heritage, after he's fought with the bear, when he looks out from the bushes and grins. I have a screenshot of it and it is just the cutest thing ever! ^_^ Thanks!
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 6:53:24 pm EST from 209.243.38.9

And it's in the FAQ too:
http://s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/faq.php?s=faq22

So. I should listen to my own advice and search the archives first.
Gorebash
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 6:20:10 pm EST from 70.22.191.109

Demonskrye: You're right.

Here's the Ask Greg post that explains it all:
http://s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=649
Gorebash
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 6:16:45 pm EST from 70.22.191.109

Just commenting on the format changes to the site...another site I frequent recently changed format and it ended up being a pain...but this is quite nice.
Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
You cannot make a cup of tea large enough, or a book long enough to suit me."--C.S. Lewis
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 6:04:45 pm EST from 69.3.223.204

lonerider> i think that the first hypotesis is wrong only a foul could fire a person that give to him a change to do a lot of money (my God gargoyles get a lot of fan and have a good critcs too than a lot of merchandising and much more..) the second hypotesi could be true but why? i mean if you product a thing that guve me a change to do a lot of money you have to have a reward for your hard work... it is a nonsense
giza
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 5:38:15 pm EST from 79.27.59.45

Hmm, I've always wondered what happened to Greg after season two. I mean, I've heard a few different 'reasons'(read from various places; my memory isn't like it once was), one being that he was fired (not likely), or they were offering less money (like Gorebash suggested).
What DID happen?
lonerider26 - [lonerider26 at gmail dot com]
"I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."~Volitare
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 5:30:37 pm EST from 68.51.71.63

however we never have a 4th season (it is better to say a true 3rd season) and there is a lot of things that greg have to ask to us if he have time and money and it is so sadly...
giza
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 5:27:51 pm EST from 79.27.59.45

Gore> Not that I want to doubt your version of events, but I seem to remember Greg saying that he did have the option to stay on "Gargoyles," but that it was "an offer he was meant to refuse," basically doing the same show for less money. So Greg declined and TGC went ahead without him. Am I wrong?
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 5:21:36 pm EST from 146.115.115.33

maybe i'm a foul or maybe i'm not but the problem was that stupid Eisner's law that law has never worked by the way destroy a serie because it is more 65 episode was a crazy thing.. if i remeber well that person isn't more in disney so why do they destroy that law?
On wikipedia i read that gargoyles was the first (and maybe the one) serie that was closed because it is more of 65 episode
13 the first season 52 the second 13+52=65
after all why disney don't think to pick back the old series that are more interesting about the new? (rubish for me) there are a lot of things that i can't undstand
giza
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 5:21:12 pm EST from 79.27.59.45

giza: Greg didn't leave Gargoyles. Disney ordered two seasons and then told the production team there would be no more episodes. After Greg and the others who worked on the show had gone off to other projects Disney decided it would fill a spot on ABC's Saturday morning cartoons with new episodes of Gargoyles. Since Greg most of the staff who had worked on the first two seasons had moved on a new team was formed to produce the third season.
Gorebash
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 5:12:44 pm EST from 207.206.236.230

my apologize but i don't remeber why greg leave gargoyles' team could you help me to remeber pls?
giza
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 5:08:25 pm EST from 79.27.59.45

Whoa, I like the new changes to the website.
Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1 at sbcglobal dot net]
"What is this? There's something wrong with the house! I don't like change!"- Stewie Griffin
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 4:51:08 pm EST from 69.231.211.175

And FYI, Brad Goodchild was an animation supervisor on Gargoyles. He's posted a ton of cels and drawings from the show on his blog: http://thecanuckleheads.blogspot.com/. Check it out if you haven't already!
Gorebash
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 4:50:58 pm EST from 207.206.236.230

Profiles and custom avatars? Not really. I'm not sure I want to start maintaining a system that has usernames and information on people and the such.

Brad Goodchild has thrown up some cels of Bronx:
http://thecanuckleheads.blogspot.com/2009/02/bronx-from-disneys-gargoyles.html
Gorebash
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 4:48:23 pm EST from 207.206.236.230

Are we to the point where we can create our own profile on this site and upload our own avatar? That would be awesome.
Anthony Tini
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 4:36:03 pm EST from 159.240.11.254

D. Taina: Might I request a Vinnie avatar? I'm not likely to use him myself (I've grown rather fond of Renard), but I'm sure someone will love using the resident 'Gargoyles' schmook. ;)
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 4:28:39 pm EST from 157.242.209.199

D. Taina > I'd like to see Fox in her were-fox form, and perhaps a few additional Demona avatars. Not a boat-load of them, but perhaps some with different facial expressions? I think Demona looks best in High Noon during that scene in MacBeth's mansion. I like the way she looks when she says "My only consolation is that our magical link allows you to suffer as well".

Also, are there avatars for the Future Tense versions of Lex, Matt, and Demona? That'd be cool.
Rebel
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 4:18:48 pm EST from 198.175.205.251

Gore-thanks for keeping the adjustable text size option. Very handy fer me. ^_^
Curious what the chat room will look like. Be sure to keep the carnivorous couch. It can be trouble at times, but the room wouldn't be the same without it ^_~
Wingless
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 4:09:33 pm EST from 99.245.254.123

Demonskyre: I have Gore's permission to update the avatars and make new ones. I'll definitely be adding any missing characters from the show and the comics. Shari is a must!!

Any requests? You can post them here or just send me an e-mail.
D. Taina - [demona3 at hotmail dot com]
"The story is told -- though who can say if it be true..." -Shari
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 4:00:52 pm EST from 74.213.121.140

i find it nice :)
giza
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 3:55:51 pm EST from 79.27.59.45

Demonskrye > It's not the end of the world for me if my character isn't avatar'd. No biggy. But it WOULD be nice.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 3:51:52 pm EST from 75.156.190.146

dph_of_rules: no idea what's up with the GFW. i haven't talked to anyone working on the GFW since the last Gathering.
Gorebash
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 3:46:39 pm EST from 207.206.236.230

I'll probably still tweak the layout a bit more, but I'll push this layout over to the CR now.

Spen, I looked at this page in IE4 and I found it would load the page and you'd get a horizontal scrollbar, but you won't have to scroll left or right to see the content of the CR. I also found that a couple of time IE wouldn't load the page completely or would take a while to load the page. when this happened I got a big horizontal scrollbar. But if I just hit reload again the page was fine.

Once I get Ask Greg moved over to the new template I'll look at adding a stripped down option that you can use if the layout is still a bit off for you. The nice thing about this new template setup is essentially every page is going through the same template function so I can throw in a check that says "do they want the stripped down one?" and then replace this template with something else. All the content will still be there and be the same, but without the bloat of graphics and crazy CSS. So bear with me.
Gorebash
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 3:44:43 pm EST from 207.206.236.230

And it looks like the live CR has been upgraded -- Great Job, Gorebash :)
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 3:42:59 pm EST from 157.242.209.199

Rebel: Yeah, the colors do need a revisit as well, I know. I'll see what I can do about that.
Gorebash
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 3:30:22 pm EST from 207.206.236.230

it is fine :) i was going around on internet and i found a lot of fans about gargoyles i'm starting to think that all is possible
giza
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 2:25:16 pm EST from 79.27.59.45

D. Taina: add whatever you'd like.
Gorebash
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 1:31:32 pm EST from 207.206.236.230

Love the new look, much more fitting with the dynamic of the show!
Ricky
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 1:14:04 pm EST from 149.4.115.3

Gore: Thanks, I've been wanting to update the avatars for ages.

Can I add any to the list? I've gotten a few requests.
D. Taina
"The story is told -- though who can say if it be true..." -Shari
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 1:07:22 pm EST from 74.213.121.140

Algernon> Whoops, my mistake. Gore has also applied the new style to the archive comments. So if you go to the archive index and pick a random week, or click on "Last Week's Comments," you'll see what the room looks like with the new design. Not tremendously different, but still cool.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 11:46:12 am EST from 146.115.115.33

Gorebash> I really dig the new CR look. What's your go live date for the CR we're currently posting in?
Anthony Tini
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 11:13:40 am EST from 159.240.11.254

Algernon> Gore has redesigned the main page of Station Eight Gargoyles and a few other pages. So far as I know, the change hasn't hit the comment room yet.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 10:41:29 am EST from 146.115.115.33

People keep mentioning the new layout of the Comment Room but it looks just the same to me. Am I not pressing the right buttons or what?
Algernon
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 10:26:17 am EST from 149.157.1.184

Im almost done my current Gargoyle fanfiction. I just cant stop editing it. But Ill be done soon, I swear it! ^_^

Gore, I love the look of the new Comment Room. It looks great!

Will you let us know if you start taking requests for avatars? Theres a particular shot I have always wanted...
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 9:48:40 am EST from 209.243.38.9

Giza> Greg Weisman doesn't read fanfiction for leagal and creative reasons. If your looking for recommendations; then I heartily endorse Greg Bishansky's "Rhapsody"...

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4818572/1/Rhapsody

A fantastic story in my opinion and I usally can't stand fanfiction.
Algernon
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 9:32:11 am EST from 149.157.1.180

D. Taina: sure. if you can pull together some better quality versions of the avatars I'll use them. I need to see about reworking how avatars are managed on the back end so it's easier to add them.
Gorebash
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 9:20:07 am EST from 207.206.236.230

if i can did you read some fanfiction? Do you know what is a very good story?
Did greg read some too or he never seen it?
giza
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 9:14:58 am EST from 79.27.59.45

I'd love to see one of Fox in her were-fox form. Basically very similar to the picture that's on the gargwiki page for Fox, except zoomed in on the face. If we had an avatar like that, I'd definitely use it.
Rebel
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 8:20:42 am EST from 198.175.205.251

Testing... testing... 123
Algernon
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 8:17:09 am EST from 149.157.1.180

Avatars> The final decision will be up to Gore and D. Tains, of course, but I think if the avatars do get updated, it should be tackled in the following order:

- Better quality versions of the existing avatars
- Add in any notably missing characters (Peter Maza, Broadway as a human) or major new characters (Shari, Constance, Staghart, etc.)
- Take requests
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 7:51:56 am EST from 146.115.115.33

Gorebash - I like the new layout One thing I will add. From my limited POV, it appears as though the gfw has all but been abandoned. When was the last time anybody had contact with Guandalug la'Fay ? My last attempt was over 1 year ago and it went nowhere.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happened to simplicity?
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 4:46:44 am EST from 98.20.197.236

For those living in or near Florida....Jonathan Frakes will be visiting Orlando for the FX International convention!
http://www.fxshow.com/pages/guest.htm

I'll be going anyways for James Marsters, but the addition of Frakes is just epic! His autograph can go right on my Gargoyles DVD....next to Marina's :D
Siren
posted @ Thu, Mar 5, 2009 2:15:49 am EST from 72.188.139.212

Spen> IE4? Really?! I take so much crap when I try to build a layout and hack together a bunch of CSS so it's at least usable in IE4. And this from other pros in the field, not just random people. Nice to know that it's not a wasted effort.

I hadn't tested the new layout in IE4. I just focused on IE6 and up. I'll give it a peek tomorrow. Spen, what resolution do you run at? The new layout has a set minimum width which might be why you're scrolling horizontally.

Also, have you tried Firefox Wonder Edition (http://www.techdo.com/firefox-wonder-edition/)? It's a very lightweight version of Firefox that might work on your PC. Also, why haven't you upgraded to IE5? I know IE5 runs on Windows 95 and shouldn't add much extra overhead. You can find installs for all versions of IE (including a 16bit version of IE5) at Evolt.org (http://browsers.evolt.org/?ie/). Surely one of those would work on your system.
Gorebash
posted @ Wed, Mar 4, 2009 11:43:39 pm EST from 70.22.191.109

Patrick : Believe me, I've tried upgrading. Unfortunately, Firefox simply doesn't work on my computer. Same thing with IE 7. So I'm pretty much stuck with 4.0 until I can get a new computer. Which, for monetary reasons, I can't do until August 2011 at the earliest.
Spen
"What if this wasn't a hypothetical question?"
posted @ Wed, Mar 4, 2009 11:21:37 pm EST from 66.43.205.110

Wow! Great work, Gorebash!

P.S. IF SOMEONE DOES UPDATE THE AVATARS...

Could ya do the Little Green Gargoyle in Demona's clan? AKA this guy...

http://www.geocities.com/battlebeast3/favgarg2.jpg

Just a thought...

if not, that's OK.

But still, Great work, GORE!
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.
posted @ Wed, Mar 4, 2009 11:12:55 pm EST from 75.156.190.146

Spen > You're 3 generations behind with Internet Explorer 4. I would suggest upgrading. I can't speak for Gorebash here at S8, but for the Gathering site we're only testing that everything works in IE 6 & 7 and Firefox 3.
Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Wed, Mar 4, 2009 10:36:24 pm EST from 173.88.144.38

Thoughts on the new layout > Gore, I don't know if this is something you can (or would be willing) to do, but I think it might be good to nix a few of the text colors. There are times when I am reading people's comments and it is hard to read them because the text and background don't mesh well together. For the new layout, I think it might be good to head this problem off at the pass and delete any colors that don't show well on the background color of the new layout.
Rebel
posted @ Wed, Mar 4, 2009 9:10:26 pm EST from 75.65.27.129

Demonskrye> Thank you for the answer about issue 6. I understand now.
Lurker
posted @ Wed, Mar 4, 2009 9:04:29 pm EST from 70.248.25.70

Patrick : IE 4.0.
Spen
"What if this wasn't a hypothetical question?"
posted @ Wed, Mar 4, 2009 8:52:35 pm EST from 66.43.205.110

Don't mind me, just testing a different avatar.
Rebel
posted @ Wed, Mar 4, 2009 7:53:39 pm EST from 75.65.27.129

OOOOHHH Nevermind.

Nice. And the comment below was mine, sorry.
Rebel
posted @ Wed, Mar 4, 2009 7:44:47 pm EST from 75.65.27.129

Wow, I'm sorry if this sounds stupid, but WHAT new layout? I don't notice anything different than before. What page should I visit to see this? What should I be looking for?
Anonymous
posted @ Wed, Mar 4, 2009 7:43:27 pm EST from 75.65.27.129

Giza> No, I think you misread the information. Goliath's entry on GargWiki says he will die sometime between 2004 and 2188. We don't know what year his death occurs in yet so is could be anywhere in that span.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Wed, Mar 4, 2009 7:32:49 pm EST from 146.115.115.33

Gorebash > New layout looks good to me.

Spen > What browser and version are you using? It resizes to any width I want in Firefox 3.
Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Wed, Mar 4, 2009 7:14:03 pm EST from 173.88.144.38

@ Giza: Goliath will die, but not in 2004.
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Wed, Mar 4, 2009 7:11:25 pm EST from 84.191.226.32

Gorebash : My only problem with the new look is that now it's too wide to fit on my screen. I'll have to scroll from side to side to read every line in a comment. Not really that big of a deal, just a minor annoyance.
Spen
"What if this wasn't a hypothetical question?"
posted @ Wed, Mar 4, 2009 6:22:33 pm EST from 66.43.205.110

is it true that golia will die on 2004? i see it on gargwiki ;_; i hope he won't die
giza
posted @ Wed, Mar 4, 2009 6:07:18 pm EST from 79.35.158.45

Giza> It was Greg's idea. The canon spin-offs are Bad Guys, Timedancer, Pendragon, Dark Ages, Gargoyles 2198, and the New Olympians. Bad Guys became a spin-off comic miniseries, but the rest are all still just Greg's ideas for the time being.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Wed, Mar 4, 2009 6:05:02 pm EST from 146.115.115.33

demon> did it write by greg or was it some fan's idea?
giza
posted @ Wed, Mar 4, 2009 5:50:57 pm EST from 79.35.158.45

Gorebash: Wow. It's so big and bright. I won't be needing these anymore.

*pulls a pill bottle with no label from his jacket pocket and starts dumping its contents down the toilet*

Oh, wait! Dang, I could have sold those...
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"If someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back. You have the rights, same as anyone, to live and... try to kill people." -Mal Reynolds
posted @ Wed, Mar 4, 2009 5:38:09 pm EST from 71.62.136.51

Hayden> Wow, small world, I'm 14. And I've never posted in caps, not once ;)
lonerider26 - [lonerider26 at gmail dot com]
"The story is told-though who can say if it be true..."~Shari
posted @ Wed, Mar 4, 2009 5:15:24 pm EST from 68.51.71.63

Gorebash: I think it looks good. But the avatars could use a makeover. I'm willing to remake them in DVD quality. How about it?
D. Taina
"The story is told -- though who can say if it be true..." -Shari
posted @ Wed, Mar 4, 2009 5:13:02 pm EST from 74.213.121.140

giza> Yes, "Gargoyles 2198" is one of the proposed spin-offs. The idea is that the main series would follow the Manhattan Clan and their friends and foes up until the year 2198, at which point it would end. "2198" would tell the story of what happens from that point on. But because 2198 takes place very far in the future and most of the characters we know from the main series will be long dead, the spin-off could run alongside the main series without spoiling stories intended for the regular "Gargoyles" comic, so long as no one started talking about exactly wha happened to Goliath or anyone else from the original Manhattan Clan.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Wed, Mar 4, 2009 5:07:15 pm EST from 146.115.115.33

Gore: The new (impending) design for the Archives looks nice -- my own little gripe (which, admittedly probably stems from my slight fear of change) is that we'll no longer have that lovely Goliath-Gargoyle logo in the corner of the room. But I'll admit its a small gripe ;)

Great job on the 'facelift,' BTW. I totally didn't notice at first until I visited the CR and read the comments, due to the fact I have for years bookmarked this site on "Recent Responses" page.

Though a quick question: Will posting comments in the CR remain in a similar fashion with the usual security code?
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Wed, Mar 4, 2009 5:04:30 pm EST from 157.242.212.4

@ Crzy Demona: What would interrest me, is Edmund working in a canon form, or a bit looser? For all we know he tries to... well, be as much Greg as he can?
And I'm not waiting for an excuse, but, just, really: I'm not a homophobe, and I was not one of the people you described, I just wanted to hear that you read that before. Else I'm anxious you'll hate me now. :( Hope not.

@ Demonskry: If it pays out, and there is a company behind it, this might be a way to get more Garg material though... I mean, if the issue to be published will get greenlit by Disney 1 month before it is put up. ;)

@ Giza: Yup. Check the Garg Wiki. Basically, it starts in 2198 and features the kids of the Gargoyles, a Timedancing Brooklyn, Demona, Cyberlex and some surprises. :)
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Wed, Mar 4, 2009 4:58:34 pm EST from 84.191.226.32

if i may is gargoyles 2198 a spin-off? i found some news about it and i hope it won't touch the main story
giza
posted @ Wed, Mar 4, 2009 4:39:07 pm EST from 79.35.158.45

Right. So go to the comment room archive and pick a random archive and see how it looks. That's about what this place will look like. Any feedback before it happens?
Gorebash
posted @ Wed, Mar 4, 2009 4:34:32 pm EST from 207.206.236.230

Crzy Demona> I was a little confused about how the plot/porn balance would play out, whether we were looking at a story that happened to have sex scenes or the tengu equivalent of "Sexy Pizza Guy" (meaning the "plot" is the smallest amount of setup required to get eh characters to take their clothes off.) I hope the plot portions will give us the idea that the characters are attracted to each other and, in some cases at least, in love, as I find that more appealing than just going straight to the sex.

The confusion I've had about just how similar "Last Tengu" might be to "Gargoyles" came from some earlier statements about the project which seemed to say that there was no similarity between the two properties. Whatever the reasoning, it didn't seem entirely accurate to me, so I wasn't quite sure what to expect. So thank you for clearing that up. As I understand it now, Blue Mug will features characters and ideas with enough similarity to "Gargoyles" that fans of one may find the other enjoyable, but they're definitely not parallel stories.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Wed, Mar 4, 2009 4:07:59 pm EST from 146.115.115.33

Jen "CrzyDemona"> "Landon - Edmund would never just have JUST porn. He's far more complex than that... he's up to MOSTLY porn at this point. ... and they said he'd never grow as a writer. ;)"
This is why I think BM is going to be such a fun read. It's not going to take itself too seriously. And smut, can't forget the smut.
Asatira
posted @ Wed, Mar 4, 2009 3:46:02 pm EST from 68.190.20.172

Demonskyre - You do realize that Blue Mug/Last Tengu is well... let's say... ALL ADULT, ALL THE TIME. Right? I mean, Edmund is very adamant that the 'action' be plot driven, but other than vaguely similar situations and characters... it's not very Gargoyles like. ... and it's got a coat on it, but it's definitely not paint. ;)

Although we are catering to Gargoyles fans in general, it's not geared exclusively for them.

Landon - Edmund would never just have JUST porn. He's far more complex than that... he's up to MOSTLY porn at this point. ... and they said he'd never grow as a writer. ;)
Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson - [<--- Blue Mug Productions - 18+ ONLY]
"The Internet is for PORN!" -- Trekkie Monster, Avenue Q
posted @ Wed, Mar 4, 2009 3:39:50 pm EST from 76.174.154.162

Landon> Forgot to respond to your comment. I think that how Blue Mug Productions performs could be very interesting to see. I'm curious about how they will tackle the general concerns of keeping a webcomic regularly updated and making it profitable enough to be worth the creators' while. And it will certainly be nice to have regular comics stories that - while not directly related to "Gargoyles" - certainly seems like it would appeal to the average Gargoyles fan. There's a lot that could be very good about it. It's a true fresh start, unlike the SLG comic which - much as I enjoyed it - I still feel may have been a little tough for new fans to pick up. And people who like "Gargoyles" already get to enjoy a brand new series dealing with some similar concepts which is also totally free of licensing or content restrictions. The only potential downside I can think of is for "Gargoyles" fans who might feel that while the Blue Mug material is good, maybe even great, but it's not "Gargoyles." My understanding - someone please correct me if I'm wrong - is that while "Gargoyles" and the Blue Mug stories are based around similar ideas, Blue Mug is not "The Flashback of Notre Dame." It's not just "Gargoyles" with a different coat of paint. We won't be able to go through it and say "OK, A is Goliath and B is Demona and C is Elisa" and so on and so forth. These are different characters with their own stories that aren't necessarily going to run parallel to those from "Gargoyles." Sometimes there might be points of comparison, but often there won't. So the one worry I can see is that Blue Mug could feel like when you're eating a really delicious cookie, but because what you really want is cheesecake, you're not enjoying the cookie quite as much as you would were you not craving cheesecake. (Actually, considering the other uses of the word, Blue Mug should probably be the cheesecake.)
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Wed, Mar 4, 2009 3:11:05 pm EST from 146.115.115.33

Aahh! New page design! Glad it's finally up, Gore. Good job. It just surprised me because it wasn't there this morning.

*ahem* I was just going to say I am also looking forward to the Blue Mug comics. Yes, the erotic stuff is a draw, but for some reason I'm expecting it to be a fun read with a lot of humor. I don't know why, I just think I'm going to get a lot of laughs mixed in with overall good (hopefully) writing and art. We'll see.
Asatira
posted @ Wed, Mar 4, 2009 2:34:12 pm EST from 68.190.20.172

Gorebash> The new page layout is looking pretty sharp and it's nice to see some updated information on the front page too. I'm looking forward to seeing it make its way to the other pages.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Wed, Mar 4, 2009 2:32:53 pm EST from 146.115.115.33

Didn't think you'd notice that fast. Haven't even gotten to the heavily trafficked pages yet.
Gorebash
posted @ Wed, Mar 4, 2009 2:12:55 pm EST from 207.206.236.230

Sorry for the double post, but does anyone know where I can find some good piece of fan art?

I kind of need to use it to upload one of my old, crappy Gargoyles fics on a certain website. Credit and link to the artist's site will be provided, of course.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Wed, Mar 4, 2009 1:41:53 pm EST from 99.187.186.151

Wingless> That update startled me for a second. I was all 'what the hell is this?' and then 'hey, this is kind of nifty.'

Wish I could shake the hand of whoever it was (Gorebash? Todd Jensen?) that did it.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Wed, Mar 4, 2009 1:19:32 pm EST from 99.187.186.151

Wow! the main page of the website got a facelift. Gore's been busybusy as always. Thanks for redecorating for us Gore, we promise to keep the place clean...or at least we'll try to ^_~
Wingless
posted @ Wed, Mar 4, 2009 12:23:00 pm EST from 99.245.254.123

demon> infact i said that i don't agree a possible web comic however slg troubles can depend about the economy's storm that is attacking all the world so dab vado said about SLG situation

I read also all the article and i found some new comics not very interesting Dan Vado have to choiche the best tactic for survive we can help him to buy his comic but i think i will buy only gargoyles for the story and drama i hope only they will publish it in europe too
giza
posted @ Wed, Mar 4, 2009 11:05:43 am EST from 79.56.153.212

Brook: I'm actually more intrigued by Blue Mug than anything else down the pike. If they can pull off their planned weekly release schedule, it could be the constant stream of Gargoyles-ish content we were all hoping for the comic series to be. The prospect of a consistently released Gargoyles(-ish) series with no Disney oversight and no censors is looking more and more attractive in this content drought. And it's 100% online, so it's future-proof. It could be 'just' porn, it could be more, who knows.
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]
posted @ Wed, Mar 4, 2009 10:54:29 am EST from 128.101.32.234

Lurker> The shortest explanation is that Greg needed to tell the story in order to set up the character of Coldstone (and eventually Coldsteel and Coldfire) for new readers. The audience would be introduced to Coldstone and his past condition of having the souls of three gargoyles in one body, and then hear Shari tell the tale of how those three souls were "replanted" in separate bodies next issue. For longtime fans, it explains why Angela wasn't particularly taken aback when she supposedly first met Coldstone in "Possession." And it's something Greg W has been talking about for a long time. Had the Marvel "Gargoyles" comic lasted long enough, he would have told the story there. So it's kind of a famous story for Gargoyles fans. As King Cobra pointed out, these years of buildup may have done it more harm than good, as could be the case for other stories Greg has been teasing for years.

Personally, I thought issue #6 felt a little rushed in the telling of the story and I wanted to see more interaction between Coldstone and Angela, but I still enjoyed seeing it.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Wed, Mar 4, 2009 10:45:51 am EST from 146.115.115.33

I have been reading the comments for some time and I have a question about issue 6. A few people have said they diddnt like it followed with a statement something to the effect of, "The story needed to be told."

Why did this story need to be told? What significance am I missing or what has Weisman on S8 revealed that I did not read.
Lurker
posted @ Wed, Mar 4, 2009 9:37:09 am EST from 70.248.25.70

I'm definitely interested in the stories that are going on in the Gargoyles universe right now. I can't wait to see the conclusion of the Stone of Destiny arc. Plus I want to see what's on that island and what Brooklyn's first Timedancing adventure will be like.

But, I've got to be honest. If there was a "timeskip" in the Gargoyles universe, I'd be EXTREMELY happy. While I'm interested in the stories that are happening in the late 90s, there are other things that I'm more interested in. For example, I want to meet Angela and Broadway's children more than I want to see the stories from the 1990s. I know there is no way to decide which stories are most important and which aren't, but there are some stories that I think are more important or more interesting than others, and I kinda wish Greg would skip to those. I mean, I'm going to be bummed if we never meet Angela and Broadway's children, but I wouldn't be terribly bothered if we had never gotten the story in #6, for example. I suspect there's never going to be a timeskip, however, so I'm a little disappointed but hardly brokenhearted.
Rebel
posted @ Wed, Mar 4, 2009 8:07:05 am EST from 198.175.205.251

@ Demonskrye: On a more positive note... that BLUE MUG thing *might* not just be material to jack off to, but also and attempt to see if this, well, *works*... but befor Greg stumbles in and tells me to shut it and stop revealing his secret plans, I better stop here. :)

Also, I do agree. I mean, I'm not the worlds biggest comic geek, and I still buy trades here and there, but just very few. If my financial situation has changed/bettered a bit, I'll buy the hell out of some Batman trades. :)

The idea with 2198... yeah... I asked Greg some time ago about that, if he is telling all the stories or if he drops some, so he has a faster timeline, and he responded that now there's "no rush" for him and the stories are told without any leftouts. So, yeah, long way to go to 2198...

This is also why I've expressed in the past that I would wish GARGOYLES to end 1 season after Goliaths death. At some point, you just have to let go and END things and not let them go on and on and on and on. We still would get 2198, but there is little to no need I see to tell anything further away than 1 year after Goliaths death.

Seeing "5 years later" jumps in shows like, say, LOST or DESPERATE HOUSEWIVES really did show that jumping forward is possible, without ruining the story or the characters.

If the time to publish stuff takes in the future as long as it did now, we'd be in 2008 Garg Verse in 30 years... what is a bit discurraging... :(

With CB, I've finally got the feeling that I can let the storyline go.
But I'll still look forward to what comes after.

It's like with BATMAN: after RIP and HEART OF HUSH, one can let go of it. I'm still looking forward to what is going to come, and GM wrote some of the best Batman Bad-Guys in hitory with the 3 Ghosts, his absolutely outstanding version of Hush and Black Glove.

And I'm looking forward some of the same in GARGOYLES with Lex clone and the Illuminati.

@ Paletea: I knew that, but it is getting better EVERY SINGLE TIME!! Brilliant filmmaking.
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Wed, Mar 4, 2009 7:42:44 am EST from 84.191.242.241

Dear Greg,

Just read about CB Vol. 2 and Redemption. Bummer about the license. Ten-thousand thanks to you, Vado, SLG and no doubt countless others for the impending trades. Will be awaiting them with fervent zeal.

Your faithful fleshcrafter,
-AR-
Aaron R. - [dubhinis at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Wed, Mar 4, 2009 12:04:02 am EST from 99.147.134.217

On a lighter note, I'm looking forward to seeing what stories Shari will be telling about the Stone of Destiny's history in #9, when the trade paperback comes out. I researched the history and legends about the Stone of Destiny, and discovered a few stories about it in the post-1040 period that will probably get in.

MOST LIKELY: Edward I carrying the Stone off from Scotland to Westminster Abbey in 1296. Obviously crucial, because it explains why the Stone was at Westminster Abbey to begin with.

MEDIUM LIKELY: James VI of Scotland being crowned as King James I of England in the Coronation Chair at Westminster Abbey (with the Stone of Destiny built into it) in 1603. That would be a noteworthy event since it meant that a King of Scotland was at last being crowned on the Stone of Destiny again, in a way. Also, James would fit in because of his connections to Macbeth via William Shakespeare. (What would be really great would be to show Shakespeare - and maybe even Macbeth, because of Greg Weisman's mention that they were drinking buddies - in the crowd in the coronation scene.)

The removal of the Stone from Westminster Abbey in 1950 (likely to get in because of the allusion to it in #7, with the revelation that Macbeth took part in the theft).

LEAST LIKELY: According to the Wikipedia entry on the Stone of Destiny, there's a story that after the Battle of Bannockburn, Robert the Bruce gave a piece of the Stone to an Irish king who had fought alongside him against the English. The Irish king took it home to his castle: the castle's name was Blarney Castle, and his piece of the Stone became the Blarney Stone. I think it's a lot of fun, but alas, since it has less priority than the other incidents mentioned above, and there's only so much that #9 can cover, I don't think it's likely to be included.
Todd Jensen
http://www.gunnerkrigg.com/book.html?PHPSESSID=d639220dcbdf1fd0d26d96d95158feb2
posted @ Tue, Mar 3, 2009 8:40:19 pm EST from 4.244.214.168

After reading "comic is a dying industry" we all need to laugh at something. Try with this XD Lexingston's father lost love

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvWkCYpsXz0&feature=related
Palatea
posted @ Tue, Mar 3, 2009 8:17:56 pm EST from 190.245.174.241

Giza> 1) This is the biggest reason I don't think a "Gargoyles" webcomic with Greg Weisman and some fan artists would happen. Maybe the theoretical unemployed fans with skills and plenty of money could help, but I think Brook knows as well as anyone that these people probably don't exist. Plus Greg has indicated many times that he won't do "Gargoyles" for free and making webcomics pay is still a tricky proposition.

2) I don't see how a webcomic would be any more intimidating to new fans than a print one. Webcomics are easy to access; all you need is a computer with an internet connection. I've seen people gripe about not having a convenient comic store and ordering single issues online is too hard. You might lose the benefit of comic shop owners promoting the comic to customers, but honestly, I haven;t heard of that happening with "Gargoyles," espceially since so many stores only ordered the comic if they were asked to. If we had a webcomic, it would be much easier for fans to promote the books themselves. Imagine if all a curious party had to do was click a link to at leas get a sample of the comic.

3) We don't know that Slave Labor will close by the end of the year. I don't think anyone knows for certain. But like I said, if the president of SLG is expressing concern that the publisher may be out of business next year, it's cause for concern. Like I said, I would think they would be looking to publish fewer books and dump ones that have costly licensing fees at the very least.

4) Again, we don't know that no other comics publishers are interested in "Gargoyles." Disney has been licensing a lot of its properties to other comics publisher, which is a good sign. But as I was saying, if Slave Labor goes out of business, I don't think a lot of other publishers are going to be saying "I want to pick up the licenses that they had." The comics sell reasonably well. The main book was SLG's top selling comic, but because Disney's fees cut into their profits, it was not their top moneymaker.

Brook> Thing is, comics has been a "dying industry" for probably the past ten years, if not longer. But somehow, comics have stuck around. I do think the single issue format is in trouble and the superhero comics are largely chasing a smaller and smaller audience. But I think some for of sequential art will always be with us, be it newspaper comics, graphic novels, trades exclusively, webcomics, or something else.

Todd> I'm kind of torn, and have been for quite a while. On the one hand, I really would like to see more "Gargoyles" stories and have them continue on for as long as Greg is willing to tell them. There are things here and there that have been revealed or hinted at on Ask Greg that I do want to see. But on the other hand, I have aged and changed since the TV show was on the air. I've found other shows and other stories to latch onto. The realization that even if we were getting two years worth of "Gargoyles" universe stories in every one real world year, Greg would probably not live long enough to tell all of the stories that would take the main series from the point it's at presently to 2198 made me think about how much I could really worry about whether or not I would get to hear every "Gargoyles" story someday.

I too would very much like to see more "Gargoyles" and will probably try to get my hands on anything new that comes out. But I also don't feel like it's something I really need to see happen.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Tue, Mar 3, 2009 7:57:07 pm EST from 146.115.115.33

@ Todd: Somehow, I agree. I still have to see how #12 ends the arc, but so far, this is a good point to nod, put the books in your shelve and move on.

I've read all of Morrisons run in Batman, from the Joker beating up Batman in front of some disabled kids, Heart of Hush and to RIP, and I feel the same here. Things are resolved or at least have an ending to it. With HUNTERS MOON, I felt as if it just has begun.

I#ll wait for #12 though and see what comes afterwards. I'm very positive that Greg will make me read whatever comes after that. :)
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Tue, Mar 3, 2009 7:02:27 pm EST from 84.191.228.40

I suppose that should have been "click the link below my name". Sorry about that. (And sorry about the double post.)
Todd Jensen
http://www.gunnerkrigg.com/book.html?PHPSESSID=d639220dcbdf1fd0d26d96d95158feb2
posted @ Tue, Mar 3, 2009 6:47:55 pm EST from 4.244.214.168

While I'm sorry to hear about SLG's troubles, I have to confess this: I realized while reading it that I've moved on from "Gargoyles" in some ways. While I'd buy any new comics or graphic novels that came out, I find that I can leave the story in the past now. I don't think I'd be heartbroken to learn that once the two trade paperbacks come out, we will never get any more "Gargoyles" stories or learn anything more about what happened to the clan afterwards (beyond a few hints at "Ask Greg"). I suppose I've just moved on to other stories by now. (And if there was another fan-effort to continue the series via fanfic, as TGS did, I don't think I'd volunteer for it this time.)

It appears that the two original comic series that Greg Weisman was going to create won't get made either. That's a pity, for although I didn't have plans to read either one, they could have given him the opportunity to tell the stories that he had in him, just with a new setting. (Though it might have taken a while to re-adapt them to something other than the Gargoyles Universe.) But maybe he'll be able to create another new fictional universe for someone else, or on his own.

Click my name, incidentally, for the book version of one good webcomic that I highly recommend to everyone here. I've already bought a copy, and enjoy it.
Todd Jensen
http://www.gunnerkrigg.com/book.html?PHPSESSID=d639220dcbdf1fd0d26d96d95158feb2
posted @ Tue, Mar 3, 2009 6:47:00 pm EST from 4.244.214.168

Brook> Individual comics might not be doing well, but the comic companies do get good money on trades.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Tue, Mar 3, 2009 5:56:06 pm EST from 71.120.226.102

brook> however it is very but very important to speak about this situation on the next gathering there will be a solution we must belive it
giza
posted @ Tue, Mar 3, 2009 4:23:24 pm EST from 79.22.1.93

Haha, I don't feel picked on, don't worry. :) Misunderstandings may arise, especially when not speaking face to face.

There was this discussion some time ago why Gargfans don't do the comics, for no pay. That was directed to that idea, loads o people pointed out that it is a job that needs lots of talent and time, and thus should or has to be paid.

It was just the otherday however, that I flipped through the TPB and some recent Batman issues, and the sketchy nature of mostf the Gargcomics lowered my spirits a bit. The people work so hard and so long at times on the Gargcomics, and still it is not enough to make it as "glossy" as the majors...

It is so frustrating to see such potential doing so bad, such small labels who do what they like, and support the material they find interresting, fade... :(

I know what I'm talking of, I'm currently both in the proess of directing a short film with 0 money and co-founding a publishing house (or what you call it) - yep - also with 0 money.
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Tue, Mar 3, 2009 4:20:59 pm EST from 84.191.228.40

I don't agree about brook idea for this reasons

1) gargoyles is a disney's trade mark who pay copyrigths=
2) Put a comic on the web will be an help but a disaster too new people can't became fans and it simple to imagine why when we go to a comics shop often owner give us some suggest about new comics or old too
3) are why sure that SLG will be closed on the ed of this years? we are in march december is so away i hope the gathering is a good moment to speak about this delicate situation
4)Are we sure that other comic company aren'r interesting to gargoyles? if the comic sell good maybe greg could convice some other comic house to acquire gargoyles

i hope that all will be vanish like a soap bobble
giza
posted @ Tue, Mar 3, 2009 4:05:51 pm EST from 79.22.1.93

Sorry Brook, I don't mean to always pick on you. Maybe I just find your posts the most stimulating. ;)
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]
posted @ Tue, Mar 3, 2009 3:43:00 pm EST from 128.101.32.234

So we have two dates for the trades: during summer and before Comic-Con. So if you wanted to be pointlessly literal, you could predict they'll come out on one of the Wednesdays between June 24 and July 22, inclusive.

Brook: Just like with newspapers, music, books, and TV, comic publishers that find a way to conquer the web will flourish. I don't think it's fair to say comics is a dying industry, just a changing one. And as always, there will be casualties.
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]
posted @ Tue, Mar 3, 2009 3:40:28 pm EST from 128.101.32.234

Let's face it: Comics is a dying industry. :(

It is a shame, but kind of, uh, logic. Peope complain about the story arcs and macho-man-ized artork of long ronning titles such as Superman or Daredevil or Batman, and there is few novelty in the genre. As cool as Gargoyles is, it isn't the re-invention of comics, both story and artworkwise, and hasn't gotten a lot of recognition, although it did good for SLG standarts.

I'm all for web comic right now, with Greg writing and some talented fans doing the artwork. :) Some unemployed fans with skills and too much money. ;) ;)
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Tue, Mar 3, 2009 3:35:54 pm EST from 84.191.228.40

demon> sure but the dangers is so real... and it seems that SLG could finish his business in a very quickly time... the probelm is also could SLG pubblish some comics for european or asian market? if it isn't possible there are a lot of trubles in future
giza
posted @ Tue, Mar 3, 2009 2:25:41 pm EST from 79.22.1.93

Landon> So SLG could potentially go under completely, not just stop doing the Disney comics? That would be a real shame, even "Gargoyles" aside. They published my friend Les McClaine's comic "Highway 13" several years back and they're the main publisher for one of my husband's favorite comics creators. Even with all the various comics companies with Disney licenses now, I don't know that the future looks good for a "Gargoyles" comic if SLG goes under. On the face of it, it may seem like other comics published would be happy scoop up the book that was SLG's best selling title. But keep in mind that SLG's best selling title might not be able to hold a candle to the sales of a comic based on a recent Pixar film or one based on the "Pirates of the Caribbean" films or whatever else Disney may have licensed out. I've said in the past that the result of the comic not selling won't be that SLG says "Oh, we should get a different artist" or "Oh, we need to spend lots of money to advertise the comic" or "Let's put the book out every two weeks" or Disney saying "Hey, why don't we bring back the animated series?" It's pretty much a choice between SLG's "Gargoyles" comic and no new "Gargoyles" stories. If you don't like the comic and don't want to buy it, that's fine, but don't kid yourself into thinking that not buying the comic will somehow get you what you want. Similarly, I don't think there's going to be a long line of publisher waiting to snatch up the "Gargoyles" license if SLG goes under. The previous holder of a license having to leave the business for lack of money does not exactly make other players in the business see the license as something they want to have. I don't mean to be all gloom and doom here, It is possible that SLG will weather the current financial storm. But even if they do, that's no guarantee that they'll keep publishing "Gargoyles." Dan Vado may decide that the way to survive is to slim down his company's offerings and stop paying heft licensing fees to Disney for comics that have trouble justifying the amount being spent on the license. It's also possible that someone else will pick up the rights to produce a "Gargoyles" comic, but again, there's no guarantee and the idea is going to look a lot better to other comic book houses if they see the SLG "gargoyles" comics making at least some money.

The solution isn't anything we haven't heard before. Buy the first trade if you don't have it. Buy the other two trades when they come out. If you have any kind of interest in independent comics, consider picking up a few of SLG's other books. Other than that, just spread the word and keep your fingers crossed.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Tue, Mar 3, 2009 1:27:47 pm EST from 146.115.115.33

@ Giza: I speak many languages. :)
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Tue, Mar 3, 2009 12:49:02 pm EST from 84.191.228.40

landon > thank you :)
brook> nice :P are you french :)?
giza
posted @ Tue, Mar 3, 2009 12:48:01 pm EST from 79.32.156.192

giza: My name is Landon with an 'a', by the way.

Here is what my post means: The Gargoyles comic book publisher is called SLG. They will release two books this summer, one with Gargoyles issues #7-12 and with Gargoyles: Bad Guys issues #1-6. The article did not mention Disney, so I think Disney is fine with this.

Unfortunately the same publisher, SLG, is having money problems and may go out of business this year. Since SLG sells more Gargoyles comics than anything else, Gargoyles fans may be able to help SLG survive if we encourage enough people to buy the comics. Here is a page that can translate text in case it helps: http://translate.google.com/
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]
posted @ Tue, Mar 3, 2009 12:33:34 pm EST from 128.101.32.234

@ Giza: Il dit que le Garg Wiki est un "bible des Gargoyles". C'est le nom de Gregs Masterplan - "Gargoyles Bible". :)
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Tue, Mar 3, 2009 12:33:25 pm EST from 84.191.228.40

greg>sure infact it is a thesis of mine for explain to me the story before the masscre of 994. I loved that show because greg created an universe that is still growing however it is nice to speak with you because you help me to undstand a lot of think about gargoyles however where in bible are there some reference about gargoyles?

I know some french and european legend on it
giza
posted @ Tue, Mar 3, 2009 12:17:25 pm EST from 79.32.156.192

Giza- That is not a story or a thesis . The GargWiki serves as a sort of encyclopedia for the Gargoyles fandom. Just about everything in there either comes directly from the show, the comics, or from information that was revealed in Ask Greg. Fan theories and fanfiction are not included in the GargWiki.

While your idea sounds like it would make an interesting story in a separate series, as the series bible said "Gargoyles are a species of animals as dinosaurs were, elephants are, and human beings pretend not to be.

First came the gargoyles.
Second came the humans.
Third came the Children of Oberon.

None of those races played a part in creating the others. As far as we know, anyway.
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Tue, Mar 3, 2009 11:55:06 am EST from 76.95.180.59

london> what does it mean? that disney won't give her authorization for the comic? i can't undstand :S pls could u explain it to me with simple words?
giza
posted @ Tue, Mar 3, 2009 11:01:20 am EST from 79.32.156.192

CBR's SLG report: http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=20260

Both trades still planned for the summer. No mention of Progeny or Mecha-Nation. Also: "I've done this for 23 years," Vado said, "I can't say we'll make it to the end of 2009. And that's shocking to say because I've lived through a lot of crap." SLG has been a hell of an advocate for Gargoyles. It would be sad for the two trades to be their last books. Gargoyles has always been their best selling material in recent years. Our spreading-the-word could make the difference in keeping the company afloat.
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]
posted @ Tue, Mar 3, 2009 10:53:12 am EST from 128.101.32.234

http://gargoyles.dracandros.com/Gargoyle <------- very nice story ^^ but to compare they with a separeted species it is an interesting thesis i always thinked (in my fantasy i mean) that gargoyles was sons of darkness evocated by a potent sorcer that creaved all the controll of all the earths and abysses that created a strong army with humans dissident and a very strong infernal race the gargoyles after a very long and hard fight the god's force won on the sorcer and his army than some human thinked to destroy all gargoyles race and kill the remaning dissidents some other thinked to use gargoyles strenght for their interestes but after a long processes the second was right so Roman Magus castes "Spell of Humility" force them to be stone at day live in night but with the present of the intellect and feeling
(so the can to think,to love, to hate and so on)

so i suppose when i was at 16
giza
posted @ Tue, Mar 3, 2009 10:23:01 am EST from 79.32.156.192

london> i mean this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gargoyle after all it is a greg weisman's idea to thing gargoyles are that we see in the show or in the comics however it is a genius idea to make a show on gargoyles ^^

"And as for literature saying gargoyles are demons. I must respectfully disagree. I believe they were placed onto old churches and castles to frighten away evil spirits and demons."

i agree with you their works was to protect again the evil

i'd like to see something about this on the next comic nont in the story but in some note too :)
giza
posted @ Tue, Mar 3, 2009 9:55:17 am EST from 79.32.156.192

The Hunters wanted to rid the world of Gargoyles. If someone wants to rid the world of every member of a particular race or species, then they want to commit genocide against that race/species.
Rebel
GOLIATH: I SHOULD SAY SOMETHING SHAKESPEAREAN NOW.
posted @ Tue, Mar 3, 2009 5:04:09 am EST from 75.65.27.129

@ Greg: I wouldn't say genocide. When the Hunters came into town, Gargoyles were almost extinct from what I remember. I always assumed they were more a manifestation of racism, interpreting the original masks of the hunter with the red scars as a stigmata, a sign of all the fear and pain endured by Gargoyles in one symbol - although, ironically, a few scars across the face aren't a lot of pain compared to your entire clan being smashed and all that.

However, could you further explain the genocide connection?
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Tue, Mar 3, 2009 4:47:47 am EST from 84.191.228.40

Giza> I think one of the many messages of the show is one of tolerance. The gargoyles are not demons or monsters. The Hunters call them demons, but the legacy of the Hunter is a true evil representation of genocide.

Here are a couple of links for you. First, the Ask Greg FAQ:
http://s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/faq.php?s=faq18

And second, the GargWiki's entry on gargoyles:
http://gargoyles.dracandros.com/Gargoyle

And as for literature saying gargoyles are demons. I must respectfully disagree. I believe they were placed onto old churches and castles to frighten away evil spirits and demons.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"We all wear masks, Spider-Man. But which one is real? The one that hides your face or the one that is your face?" - The Green Goblin
posted @ Tue, Mar 3, 2009 3:06:15 am EST from 76.95.180.59

to greg

my apologize but it is a nonsens the words you said because in teh letterature gargoyles are demons so the age the life and the riproduction are less important that other things and i don't remember that greg wiesman said that gargoyles can have 1 egg per 20 years.. maybe i'm a foul but i prefered that they have sons like human do
giza
posted @ Tue, Mar 3, 2009 2:49:32 am EST from 79.32.156.192

Othello> Well, the age of gargoyles seems to me to be more of a slogan for the introduction than something you should take literally.

Gargoyles evolved before humans did, so at one point they outnumbered us by default. But, gargoyles by their nature have lower populations due to the birth rate. Gargoyle eggs take ten years to hatch, and they only conceive once every twenty years. So, the average female gargoyle only lays three eggs in her lifetime.

Considering how humans can reproduce like jackrabbits in comparison, I think, mathematically, once humans evolved, they outnumbered gargoyles very fast.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"We all wear masks, Spider-Man. But which one is real? The one that hides your face or the one that is your face?" - The Green Goblin
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 11:40:55 pm EST from 76.95.180.59

In "The Age of Gargoyles, do you think there were more gargoyles than humans,more humans than gargoyles,or do you think they were almost equal?
Othello
GargFan
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 11:34:13 pm EST from 70.162.249.61

Before the beginning of the series. Well... before the events of Awakening Part Two in 1994. He wasn't Owen back in 994.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"We all wear masks, Spider-Man. But which one is real? The one that hides your face or the one that is your face?" - The Green Goblin
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 11:26:35 pm EST from 76.95.180.59

I know that,but I mean when did puck become owen? Before the beginning of the series or a bit later.
Othello
GargFan
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 11:07:39 pm EST from 70.162.249.61

Othello> Hi Othello, welcome to the board.

Puck is Owen. Owen is Puck. As "The Gathering Part Two" explained, Puck noticed Preston Vogel, and wanted to "out Vogel" him, and created the role and identity of Owen Burnett. The trickster playing the straight man appealed to him.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"We all wear masks, Spider-Man. But which one is real? The one that hides your face or the one that is your face?" - The Green Goblin
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 11:01:38 pm EST from 76.95.180.59

Hi guys, what's up.Anyway I've been wondering about Puck, Has Puck always been Owen, like from the beginning of the series,Or did puck do something with Owen and try to impersonate him?
Othello
GargFan
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 10:58:22 pm EST from 70.162.249.61

HoE > "So the new colorist is some sort of magma person?"

Liquid hot magma!

:: goes back to work on his "laser" ::
Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"It's frickin' freezing in here, Mr. Bigglesworth." - Dr. Evil
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 7:27:07 pm EST from 173.88.144.38

@ Antiyonder: True that is. Many of my heroes are bisexuals, and I grew up with the knowledge that a person is defined by his/her character and his/her behavior and not his sexuality, whilst, at least in my generation, calling a boy in school "gay" was for some time the worst thing you could call somebody.

I wonder why that is though... If there were no homosexuals or bisexuals, loads of this worlds greatest artists wouldn't have existed.
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 7:23:33 pm EST from 84.191.199.128

giza> sure gargoyles is a very good toon but to compare it an anime it is uncorrect for me infact it is an other concept of animation..

There's good American animation and there's bad American animation. There's good anime and there's bad anime. Neither is superior.

Regardless while I enjoy anime, there are several factors that give Gargoyles a bit of a bragging rights:

1. Unlike most love interests in anime, characters like Elisa, Fox and Angela contribute a lot more to the plots than being the token love interest who's purpose is to look pretty and to be there for the main character to pine for.

2. Many animes take a long time to resolve one plot point. In 65 episodes of Gargoyles alone, we had many storylines resolved with many more on the horizon.

Rebel> Irony is that parents only stress about homosexuality because to them it is still an alien concept, whereas a kid raise to accept them would be likely to grow up seeing it as an alternate, yet normal lifestyle.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 6:59:14 pm EST from 71.120.226.102

Jennifer: <It's really coming together with our HOT new colorist getting ready to make it all pretty.>

Awesome! I was wondering how that was coming along, since we hadn't heard anything in a while. So the new colorist is some sort of magma person?
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"If someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back. You have the rights, same as anyone, to live and... try to kill people." -Mal Reynolds
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 6:58:15 pm EST from 71.62.136.51

@ Rebel: Haha, and if they hear Lesbian they're like that guy from American pie. XD

No but youäe right. I tried to say the same thing with that South Park quote.
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 6:47:05 pm EST from 84.191.199.128

sure gargoyles is a very good toon but to compare it an anime it is uncorrect for me infact it is an other concept of animation.. do you know why anime are so popular than some disney toon? i think because in general there are an other conception about animation
giza
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 6:41:28 pm EST from 79.51.41.201

I agree. Ignorant parents are always assuming that their kids will be "traumatized" by such things and that they need to be protected from them. It irritates me.
Rebel
GOLIATH: I SHOULD SAY SOMETHING SHAKESPEAREAN NOW.
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 6:35:02 pm EST from 75.65.27.129

let me see what i think there are a lot of way to say a thing so why greg or other people don't try an indirect mode to show the (possible) lex's homosexuality? with a simple dialogue like

Goliath:" Why don't you think about love like brodway or brooklin that got a girlfriend? "

Lexiton :" uhm... interesting but i don't want think about i'd like to stay with my friends and have my freedom"

it is just a suggest to say that is gay in a kid show (for example i mean)
giza
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 6:34:03 pm EST from 79.51.41.201

Frankly I don't see it as something that needs to be kept from kids. Infact if anything, one reason why people are against homosexuality is because it's a new concept to them.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 6:31:21 pm EST from 71.120.226.102

I think it's because most people are perverts. They hear the word "gay" and they immediately think HOT GAY SEX.
Rebel
GOLIATH: I SHOULD SAY SOMETHING SHAKESPEAREAN NOW.
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 6:28:32 pm EST from 75.65.27.129

@ patrick: It doesnÄt have to. But I'd love to see a bit deeper into the characters, and more adult, with their sexuality but also with other things. How they see the world and themselves and all that... more epic stuff... the ULYSSES of TV cartoons. XD
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 6:27:01 pm EST from 84.191.199.128

Landon> Yeah,Not everything's for kids. Greg didn't aim Gargoyles at kids though a lot of kids watched it. It was one the best shows around that wasn't an anime unlike today.
spideyforever
said
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 6:26:38 pm EST from 75.118.152.5

Patrick> Why does a character being gay have to carry inherent sexual overtones?

No idea, other than probably being an excuse by the homophobics not to depict homosexuality.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 6:22:59 pm EST from 71.120.226.102

giza: I'm saying it's a common American misconception that cartoons are only for kids. I don't agree with it and I bet most folks in here don't either. Adults in Japan watch Anime at a much higher percentage than adults in America watch cartoons. It sucks, I know. But thanks to Pixar, Greg, and others, adults are slowly beginning to see animation as a medium rather than a genre.
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 6:03:52 pm EST from 128.101.32.234

to london

my dear i see that toon is only for kid but for me gargoyles batman and spider man isn't for kids.. however maybe we got in mind (in my mind for example) the japanese toon (ANIME) some anime are so sublime that only a adult person could undstand like death notes or neogenesis evangelion and much more maybe for disney is the time to see also adult people

who said that toon are all for kids?
giza
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 5:40:29 pm EST from 79.51.41.201

Why does a character being gay have to carry inherent sexual overtones? Fox practically wraps herself around David in the limo and kisses him in a blatant display of heterosexual affection, but Lexington doing anything more than being seen hanging out with another male gargoyle is liable to be "too offending"? This is just like how it never ceases to amaze me how "scandalous" it is when two people of the same gender kiss on T.V. The problem, as I see it, is not with the story, it's with the small-mindedness of various segments of American society.
Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"Who ARE these people?" - Jerry Seinfeld
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 5:39:26 pm EST from 173.88.144.38

Brook: I can certainly agree that Disney (and most of America, really) would see any gay character as immediately making the cartoon more sexual or 'adult', regardless of context. But Greg has already gotten away with a stabbing, a hanging, and a "bastard" in the comic, things we'd never see on a Disney TV channel. Hopefully Greg will get enough leeway over time to do his stories justice.

giza: I agree that it's hard to find real emotions in cartoons. But I think that's more to do with Americans perceiving cartoons as only for kids. Animated films have been getting better at portraying stories with real emotional resonance but Greg seems to one of the few paving the way on the TV side.
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 5:31:56 pm EST from 128.101.32.234

to london

it is a good think to give a "soul" for all characters of gargoyles sure they fight but i'd like to see how they feel.. i'd like to see goliath or a gargoyles cry or some deep feeling but i think it is so hard to see that because it is a toon ç_ç
giza
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 5:10:58 pm EST from 79.51.41.201

Ah.

Well, I meant that the sexuality will become a part of the character and the plot. GW mentioned that with Disney, it would have been hard. His mate would be introduced as his friend for example. It would be obvious, but there wouldn't be anything, uh, "too offending" for people who would dislike seeing homosexuals in cartoons.

With the comics, it could be different, and, like I said, the sexuality could be portrayed as a part of his character, like I mentioned earlier. In a normal way.

The "hard to swallow" part was meant in context with people disagreeing with Gre Ws masterplan and his future plans on the characters, hence discuss this thing. For some, it is hard to swallow that lex is gay - not because they're homophobes, but because it feels, to them, as if it is applied to him afterwards.

I have no problem with this, but clicking on the imdb link I provided, there are some people.

Or just people who slightly disagree with it, see Rebels opinnion on this.
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 5:10:23 pm EST from 84.191.199.128

Brook: Hmmm, I'm trying to figure out where the misunderstanding occurred so I can clarify the debate. You said earlier: "Although I'm not gay, I can see where Greg wants to take Lex character. There is this discussion about Batwoman going on right now and about her sexuality and how it is part of her persona, and I think this goes into the same direction. However, it is one of the things in the storyline that is hard to swallow because we've not accountered any sexuality in the Gargoyles world so far. Elisa and Goliath are on the brink of it, so may it be with Broadway and Angela and Brooklyn still has to... well, wait a bit. But apart from that, GARGOYLES kept its head out of it.
Or, sumed up: There is no character of whom sexuality is a valid point of his/her persona yet.

With Lex, it may change, but not necessarily."

Maybe I interpreted that paragraph as being more negative than you intended. But I thought you meant that future story lines about Lex being gay will have to incorporate sexuality. Since Gargoyles has only skirted with sexuality so far, these new stories will be "hard to swallow" (your words) since they'll be thematically dissimilar from previous stories.

My response: Greg will write Lex's love life organically. It will fit in with the story and the overall Gargoyles theme. Lex won't derive character depth from his sexuality any more than Brooklyn has. And Brooklyn is a hornball.
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 5:01:17 pm EST from 128.101.32.234

To say it in Sean Penns words: "You Homo luvin sons of a gun." ;)

I should have added my two best friends are two girls who live in a happy relationship for 6 years and still don't really consider themselves to be homosexuals, but because they love each other, than all the missunderstandings never would have arisen. It's all a thing of the individual, really. :)
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 4:53:02 pm EST from 84.191.199.128

Brook > I'll definitely post it sometime. This weekend at the latest. By the way I'm a woman. I guess I should have specified that I'm a lesbian. My bad.

Antiyonder > What I personally believe about Lexington is that he pursued her because he was genuinely attracted to her. But then he stopped pursuing her for other reasons, which I'll get into when I post my thoughts on his character later on.

Landon > I definitely agree that whatever path Greg takes with Lex will be done in a way that is organic and believable. In fact, by the time he's done telling that chapter of Lex's life, I may well be "converted", so to speak, to genuinely believing that Lex is gay and I may prefer him that way. From what we've seen so far, though, I don't really buy it...or rather, I buy it as being on of many possibilities, but certainly not the only one.

I should also add that the conclusions that I have come to about Lexington and Greg W's conclusion that Lex is gay are not mutually exclusive. He could easily be both. My biggest disappointment is not that Greg W will portray Lex as a gay character, but that he will NOT portray Lexington as the kind of character I think he really is. In other words, I'd be fine if he did both. But it is important to me that he includes this other aspect of Lex's character that I think is most definitely there and that is being overlooked.

By the way, I don't think anyone has said anything homophobic so far. I'd be offended if they did. Disagreeing with a creator's conclusion that a character is gay is not the same as homophobia. It's called being "entitled to an opinion"--and frankly, people are entitled to their opinions whether or not one agrees with them. And this is, after all, a discussion forum, so there's nothing wrong with talking about this. There's no need to blow things out of proportion and claim that people are being homophobic if they are not entirely thrilled with the conclusion that Lex is gay.
Rebel
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 4:48:39 pm EST from 198.175.205.251

Hehe, just taking a look at the site would have answered my question.
Anonymouse
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 4:46:01 pm EST from 88.130.173.113

With Edmund... I guess all you can think of is the answer... :S
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 4:41:07 pm EST from 84.191.199.128

Sine Blue Mug has been mentioned.
Is it Gargoyles only? Or do we get other species, too?
Anonymouse
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 4:40:06 pm EST from 88.130.173.113

Sorry for another post, I keep it short:

"Brook: "I think that Greg is going to write Lex in a direction where his character is also given more depth through the part of his sexuality. just like it was done with literary figures, comic book characters and characters from films for ages."

I agree that this has been a problem in the past, especially for comic books. Gay superheros often run into two problems:"

Uh, what?

I never said it was a problem!! NOT!!! AT!!!! ALL!!!
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 4:38:10 pm EST from 84.191.199.128

Sorry for thetripple, but WTF:

"Neither of these would really be a problem except for the fact that straight superheros almost never get into relationships."

Uh, Bruce Wayne was just in one and has been in many different, Clark Kent is, peter Parker... was/is?? Murdoch has been in a long time relationship... what comics are you reading, really?? ;) Even Robin had his girlfriends.
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 4:35:20 pm EST from 84.191.199.128

"What has Greg done so far that has led to believe he'll fall into the same trap?"

Nothing. Why?

As for comics - you really talk about relationships here, still. It is one aspect of sexuality, but I'm talking of the inner part. Think of Lolita, Pale Fire, Watchmen (there are various claims by other characters that AV is/might be gay and two of the Minutemen are gay and one is lesbian). Think of Cold Mountain.

It is all one thing. It all belongs together, and the sexuality is one part of the character. Writing about it is not wrong, and just because somebody is homosexual and his sexuality is explored a bit, it doesn't mean that it is dark or more perverted or something.

It's like with South Park, when they draw this flag with all the black people being killed, and in the end the parents realise the kids drew it NOT because they are racists, but because to them all men are equal, and killing one black man is just like killing a white man. They donÄt see racism, they just see men killing men.
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 4:33:16 pm EST from 84.191.199.128

@ Antiyonder: Acually, I would be hapy if this would happen a lot more.

Yeah... it was just so... see, I saw the show with, what, like, 8 years old? I knew about homosexuality, but in a very abstract way I think... It just wasn't touched in these shows.

Reading the statement for the first time a few years ago, I smiled and said "Yeah, cool." But if it would have been on the show back then... it would have made Gargoyles even more unique and even more... "out there in its own spot of animated TV history"... sort of...
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 4:27:28 pm EST from 84.191.199.128

anonimus: I didn't mean to denigrate Goliath and Elisa's relationship and I'm sorry if you thought that. I just meant that Goliath has had two relationships that are far too complicated to be fairly compared to Lexington, who's more or less a clean slate.

Brook: "I think that Greg is going to write Lex in a direction where his character is also given more depth through the part of his sexuality. just like it was done with literary figures, comic book characters and characters from films for ages."

I agree that this has been a problem in the past, especially for comic books. Gay superheros often run into two problems:

1) They're in a relationship from the onset and that becomes a central aspect of their character. See: Hulkling/Wiccan, Midnighter/Apollo
2) They're NEVER in a relationship, yet homosexuality is STILL a central aspect of their character. See: Northstar, Batwoman (or so I've heard)

Neither of these would really be a problem except for the fact that straight superheros almost never get into relationships. Hence gay comic book characters are often a novelty where homosexuality stands in for interesting personality traits.

But all this is just the result of bad writing and decades of comic hegemony. What has Greg done so far that has led to believe he'll fall into the same trap? And the issue is already defused: as I posted before, Gargoyles is full of romance and has been from the start. There's no reason a gay character or two won't fit into the world just fine.
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 4:27:23 pm EST from 128.101.32.234

Brook> Even if networks higher ups don't feel ready to include homosexuality in a kid/family friendly show, implications can still be done. Bruce Timm did so on the Superman episode Apokolips Now Part 2 (Showing Maggie Sawyer with her lover).
Antiyonder
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 4:17:17 pm EST from 72.87.7.89

@ Anonymous: "No, I'm not gay, really, uhm, you remember Maggie, that REALLY HOT CAT, and uh... ANGELA, yeah, Angela was hot, and, uhm..." Great great great scenes that come to my mind there. ;)

Exactly what I meant by that: homosexuality not as a tagged thing but rather a valid part of his character. I think Greg will do a lot more with Lex in the future, kind of like how Brooklyn is going to have his Timedancing, Lex will also have his rites of iniciation. He's right now/after Brooklyns Timedancing the most exciting character, methinks.

But I guess you donät have to worry, Greg really isn't that much into stereotypes. :)
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 4:15:28 pm EST from 84.191.199.128

If one didn't know about Katana and AskGreg, one might even take Brooklyn's aggressive pursuit of about everything with a skirt as denial. ;)

As long as Lex isn't just the quota-homosexual, I'm happy.

Additionally to what I said before about the feeling of haste and crammedness of the comics, I think manga-style would have been better, meaning black and white, but with tons of pages, so the whole story can go abit slower. That's also the reason I'm hoping for the graphic novels, more "time" to tell and show.
Anonymouse
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 4:12:01 pm EST from 88.130.173.113

@ giza: Me too. ;)

We should use this icon more often -------> ;)

Either that or buy more irony detectors... *sigh* I wish I would have invented this useful tool...
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 4:11:16 pm EST from 84.191.199.128

Sorry for the tripple.

@ Landon: Thx for these links. But I do not doubt it.
However, it was interresting he "was told"/knew it during his time at Disney. S2 really was an improtant thing for the characters I guess. It seems that pretty much all of them really, yeah, matured into full beings with an entire story, character and knowledge of their own. What is one of the things I like so much about this show. :)
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 4:10:13 pm EST from 84.191.199.128

i was joking my dear :)
giza
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 4:07:56 pm EST from 79.51.41.201

@ giza: BTW, yeah, Goliath and Elisa will have a romantic love story. :) Don't worry. We're going to see a lot more of this in the future.
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 4:05:24 pm EST from 84.191.199.128

If it is me when I'm old...

I kinda would like to see that.

Apart from that, Lolita is possibly the best book I ever read, but pretty disturbing, so... I dunno... o_O
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 4:04:30 pm EST from 84.191.199.128

In short: Lex is gay, OK with me. Dumbledore gay: OK with me. Rock Hudson gay O... WHAT, ROCK HUDSON IS GAY??????????????

no he is just old U.U do you like to see an old man with a young girl xD?
giza
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 4:01:00 pm EST from 79.51.41.201

@ Antiyonder: Uh... where did I say "for laughs"? It is merely a creative process where writers decide things when about their characters, and critics now and then pose the question, or voice the disbelief, that the direction the character takes is natural. That is what i meant with "putting on top of it". You can put all kinds of character traits on top of things. Another example that strikes me is Pale Fire, where Nabokov has said that the narrator commits suicide after the book, whilst in the book, the character denies any idea of suicide.

Therefore, although we have the information Greg gave is, it can still be discussed. It is stupid though, cause, seriously, the creator knows his characters best. The again, if we do not have that connection, so the connection we have with GW or the interview by Nabokov, we often do not know of these things and the thought never arises.

I was surprised when Greg revealed that lex was gay, but only because I did not think that anybody would put a gay character in a Disney show. I'm happy he is though. (to that, later more in the answer to Crzy Demona)

@ Landon: OK, let me sa it in a different way.

I'm white. Though, i do not have the same color of skin like my father or my mother, although they're white too.

We both eat the same thing, yet it tastes different to the both of us. (you love meat - I hate it)

I'm in love with somebody, but it is not the same love that she has for me, you have for your partner or your partner has for you.

It is like saying "All people are the same." in meaning "All people are equal." We all have the right for marriage whoever we want (safe for people under 21/18/16 in some states, animals and Gargoyles, and stones I guess) but a marriage does not mean the same to us.

2 people, even if they have sex with each other, do not have the same sex. Two relationships that are lived out are not the same relationships.

It seems to me as if you are looking for a homopobic comment in here. There is none. Homosexuality is a thing that by now, hopefully, is regarded as normal in a society (the Oscars have shown it isn't, with people protesting against the Oscars for MILK). IT IS NATURAL.

I simply voiced this opinnion: I think that Greg is going to write Lex in a direction where his character is also given more depth through the part of his sexuality. just like it was done with literary figures, comic book characters and characters from films for ages. Without prejudice, without telling them they are different or sick or abnormal.

With Brooklyn we came close, but that was more an issue of alienation and the need of "being found". He was looking desperately in the wrong place - again, different from how Lex character is entirely. It is like saying "Yeah, but how is an apple different from a plum? They're both fruits." 'Course they are, but even if Lex would be heterosexual too, he would have a different sexuality than Brooklyn. becasue for everybody something as intimate and individual as sexuality is different entirely.

Now the fun part.

@ Crzy Demona: There is not one word where I say it is that way. Read it all through.

When I read HP7, I was struck by the fact Dumbledore was gay, and when JKR "outed him", I was not surprised. I have no problem with it.
Same with Lex. None at all.

I simply pointed out that there were people who blamed JKR of "authorial trespassing" (or whatsitcalled), meaning she applied something to the character after the story was written. And not just by fans or bogits, but by critics and readers alike.

Rebel also said the same thing, and he even IS homosexual. There is nothing about being a bigot in here, he is just not really happy with the way it was treated. He did not see the character like this. Fine. It is his right and he can discuss it.

So probably you confused Rebels post with mine or only read Landons posts, but there really is nothing in here about being pissed that somebody is gay or somebody having to be a flaming faggot to be gay or something.

Also, we talked about the issue and criticism in general of what I called above "authorial trespassing". IT IS NOT the sexuality, it is the way it is presented to the audience later on. See the note on Nabokov.

In short: Lex is gay, OK with me. Dumbledore gay: OK with me. Rock Hudson gay O... WHAT, ROCK HUDSON IS GAY??????????????

Hope that cleared up some things.
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 3:58:40 pm EST from 84.191.199.128

oh my my this is a toon ç_ç is so important to know that lex is gay or not? he is lex stop a informatic genius! however i'd like to know what do you mean with this words

As for your other point: "However, I think Goliath is not into humans in general. With Lex, we know he is homosexual, generally speaking. That is a difference."
Goliath has too much baggage with Demona and the inter-species thing.

and so?

we can see that goliath said to elisa he love her and don't you think that a lot of people before greg make the comics thinked that they was in love?
do you remember the second part of moon hunter when goliath was so unhappy we he saw elisa that kissed his friend?
c'mon goliath is so happy to stay with her why do we have to destroy his dream? maybe greg got a lot of things to to show to us let we wait...

(pls greg let goliath and elisa have a nice love story in this time a romantic love story is so needed :P)
anonimus
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 3:46:30 pm EST from 79.51.41.201

The homophobic sentiment in this room is getting overpowering.

Brook, I'm trying to find a way to say this nicely.. but... I can't. Tough shit. Dumbledore and Lexington are not your characters. They don't quietly speak to you and grow out of your own mind. They are what they are. Gay does not equal FLAMING FAGGOT. Just because someone doesn't ACT Gay enough for you does not mean they are not gay (See: Rock Hudson). Quit trying to convince us that they aren't who the creators say they are. (and Dumbledore was SO shagging Grindlewald... really, so get over it). I can't believe how much this thought process has gotten under my skin and offended me. UGH.

In other news: GREG MENTIONS BLUE MUG IN HIS INTERVIEWS!! WHOOT! It's really coming together with our HOT new colorist getting ready to make it all pretty. If you haven't signed up for the mailing list yet, click the link and sign up! (18 and older ONLY please... and if your homophobic... don't bother)
Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson - [<--- Blue Mug Productions - 18+ ONLY]
"You people are a joke. You hear Moloch's back in town, you think "Oh, boy! Let's gang up and bust him!" You think that matters? You think that solves anything?" The Comedian, THE WATCHMEN
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 3:14:03 pm EST from 76.174.154.162

Greg never decided that Lex was gay just like he never decided that Fox and Xanatos were in love. He created the characters then put them into stories and situations. The decision to make Fox and Xanatos lovers arose organically from the writing process. Greg has even said that Fox told him she was in love in Xanatos. It was the same way with Lexington. Lexington told Greg he was gay once the trio got all flirty with Angela. See:

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=8311
Referring to Lex: "The characters often tell us their truths."

See: http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=8031
"As for when I knew... it was definitely back when I was at Disney, so sometime in '95 or '96."

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=8302
"I don't really consider it a "decision" to make Lex gay... anymore than I considered it a decision to make Macbeth immortal or Xanatos machiavellian. It's just who he is."

As for your other point: "However, I think Goliath is not into humans in general. With Lex, we know he is homosexual, generally speaking. That is a difference."
Goliath has too much baggage with Demona and the inter-species thing. Compare Lexington with Brooklyn. We know that Brooklyn is heterosexual, even strikingly so. How are Lex and Brook different?
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 2:52:51 pm EST from 128.101.32.234

Brook> He doesn't strike me as the kind of writer to just use a major thing like homosexuality for laughs.
Antiyonder
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 2:25:57 pm EST from 72.87.7.89

@ Antiyonder: Yeah. But it could also have been interpreted as that in both directions.

So to speak: Greg could have come up with the decision that Le is gay even after that, puttung it on top of the character, instead of writing it with that knowledge.
(I apply "could have" cause he probably did, I do not know about that)

The issue is labelled "authorial trespassing" I believe, and wildly discussed in modern literature.
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 2:19:48 pm EST from 84.191.199.128

Brook> Yeah, but this is one point that's not a hint, even heterosexual men do that.

I never said it was a hint. It's a reason as to why he pursued Angela despite his sexuality. Reason, not hint.
Antiyonder
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 2:08:45 pm EST from 72.87.7.89

"As you said, he took Angela's choice much better than Brooklyn. Besides, he only pursued Angela because he was just following the crowd so to speak."

Yeah, but this is one point that's not a hint, even heterosexual men do that. Ever been to college? ;) ;)
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 1:59:54 pm EST from 84.191.199.128

Gregs projects: Mega-huge updates!!! :D EKSZAITAAAAAAAAAT. 3 projects at Warner, oh man... might be Mecha Nation and Progeny were handed to WB executives and they might have liked it... who knows??

@ Lanodn: Really, you miss the point. I'm not talking about homosexuality being "anormal". Here's the thing: everybodys sexuality is different!!

With somebody with a slightly different sexual orieantation, be it homosexuality, gargophilia, humanophilia (however you call it), sadomasochistic tendencies etc., it is, at least in good writing and reality, rooted in the character and the person, and not something set on top of it.

Nothing of these things are in any way anormal - they are things that are rooted in the person.

However, I think Goliath is not into humans in general. With Lex, we know he is homosexual, generally speaking.
That is a difference.
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 1:58:54 pm EST from 84.191.199.128

Rebel> Probably the biggest "red flag" that Lex is gay is the fact that he stopped pursuing Angela.

As you said, he took Angela's choice much better than Brooklyn. Besides, he only pursued Angela because he was just following the crowd so to speak.

Landon Thomas> Wonder which guest hero Greg will get a shot at.
Antiyonder
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 1:57:19 pm EST from 72.87.7.89

March 23!?! That's my birthday! 24. Now...if only I had cable or satalite that'd be a great birthday present to me...oh well. Thanks for the info.
Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
You cannot make a cup of tea large enough, or a book long enough to suit me."--C.S. Lewis
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 1:48:37 pm EST from 68.164.4.13

The Spectacular Spider-Man WonderCon news:

Greg interview with Pulse: http://www.comicon.com/ubb/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=537671#Post537671

This worries me: "Various comic books I was scheduled to do had their plugs pulled, which is really too bad." Have Progeny and Mecha-Nation been canceled? Greg doesn't mention it among his other upcoming projects. He does mention some new stuff though: "I'm writing at least one episode of Batman: The Brave and the Bold. I've got three other projects in development at Warners too. But it's WAY too early to talk about any of them. I've got another project at Starz in development with Vic Cook. Plus Vic, Greg Guler and I have an original project in development at Ape Entertainment."

CBR's report on the TSS-M panel (season 2 spoilers): http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=20250

Cheeks on the panel: http://gotcheeks.blogspot.com/2009/03/who-wants-happy-meals.html

Good news: "We announced at our panel the Spectacular Spider-man Animated's premier date for Disney XD channel. We will start airing on March 23, 2009 in the evening time, so please check your local listings for air time.

"Season 2 will air in the summer, but until then, the rest of 3 dvd volumes for Season 1 will come out before Summer. However, sometime in the Summer, the boxset will hit a local store near you!! It'll have a ton of special features in it. Woot! Woot! I can't wait!"

Has anyone seen info about the boxset anywhere else?
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 1:45:56 pm EST from 128.101.32.234

Hmmm, I will concede that since everyone is assumed to be straight until otherwise corrected, the mere fact that Lex has to 'come out' could be construed as inherently sexual. However, we're applying human standards. We've never seen a gay gargoyle before and the gargoyle coming out process, if it even exists, could be completely different from a human's. We have bits and pieces from previous AskGreg responses, but we really have no idea how the other clan members will react. It could be that Lex will simply fall in love with another male gargoyle--in a similar fashion to how Goliath and Elisa innately fell in love--and no one will give it a second thought.

But this whole discussion is kind of moot. If Vado or Greg can't get out of the Disney pre-approval scheme, Lex's future relationships won't get above the level of wink-wink/"special friend" anyway.
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 1:35:47 pm EST from 128.101.32.234

Yeah, but I think you missed my point that Greg might depict the sexuality of Lex in a different manner than, say, Goliaths.

Goliath is not in love because he is, uh... what do you call it if a Gargoyles is into a human? Humanosexual?

So, he's not in love with Elisa because he is humanosexual.

But Lex is homosexual. Therefore, this kind of sexuality might be rooted in his character and is therefore handled with in a more or less visible way.

Nobody is just sexual. Sexuality has a lot to do with character. I'm heterosexual, but I know why I prefer certain things whilst having sex, and these things are rooted with other things from my character.

So far, sexuality wasn't a big thing in the Gargverse. With Lex upcomming relationship, Brooks rather, uh, "agressive"? relationship (I mean the term agressive in a playful way, Sam & Diane and all) and Goliaths and Elisas physically pretty impossible relationship, we might get some more character depth.

I'm not talking about why somebody is hetero or homo, but to what parts sexuality is a part of the character and depicted as such.

But, as a point, the sexuality of both Fox and Xanatos is left out and not further delved into.

The best I can come up though is Humbert Humbert, and how his character and past define and shapen his sexuality and how he handles it.

Therefore, I guess that the hints that Lex is gay that Greg pointed out a few times, are rather in his character than, say, that he pets Broadway on the knee.

We are complicated beings, and the whole of all the parts that are inside us, and all these things are connected in some way. And I think that with Lex, equally in the way that Batwoman was handled, the sexuality of the character (in this case homosexuality) is deeply rooted in the figure and nothing that suddenly is set on top of it.

Therefore, I find it interresting how Greg handles it, cause, as Rebel pointed out, he's one of quite a few people who do not see Lex as "being gay" as rooted in the show/his character.
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 1:06:33 pm EST from 84.191.199.128

I'm just saying that if you assume that gay and straight relationships are completely equal, Lexington/whoever's relationship is no more sexual than Broadway/Angela's.
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 12:53:41 pm EST from 128.101.32.234

No.
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 12:35:23 pm EST from 84.191.199.128

Brook: Then I think you're making the mistake of assuming heterosexual love = romance and homosexual love = sex.
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 12:25:15 pm EST from 128.101.32.234

@ Landon: You have misunderstood me I guess: I wasn't speaking of relationships or love, but of the sexuality.

We do not have a person like Humbert Humbert, who's sexuality is so deeply rooted with his character, that the one could not exist without the other.

We encountered some sexual tension, but hardly did we get a view of one characters sexuality as a part of his/her persona.
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 12:17:17 pm EST from 84.191.199.128

Brook: I have to disagree that we haven't encountered any sexuality before. Elisa and Goliath are the most obvious example with their romance being the primary anchor of the series. Their attraction is clearly portrayed in Awakening and their kiss literally ends the series proper after 65 episodes of sexual tension. Brooklyn pursues Maggie, then Angela and shows tremendous heartache over both. Broadway and Angela become lovers themselves and kiss in both renditions of The Journey. Xanatos and Fox are boyfriend/girlfriend as the series begin (off-screen), then fall in love, marry, and have a child (unprecedented for Western animation). Goliath and Demona have a terrible divorce in the pilot and their mutual feelings of love and hate are tested throughout the series. Oberon and Titania fall back in love (or at least an understanding) and re-marry, much to Renard's chagrin. This causes a maternity dispute with Fox. To me, it seems one one the most overtly sexual series Disney has produced. All the main characters, except Hudson, are smitten at one point or another.

Rebel: I look forward to your analysis, but to add one consideration: I wasn't at the 2003 Gathering when the big Lex secret was revealed, but from what I've read in the journals and in the comment room around that time, Greg was very reluctant to reveal that information, even after a direct question. That tells me that Lex's coming out will be a slow process and will happen organically just like all other character development in the series. In other words, we weren't supposed to know yet. There hasn't been much to go on so far regarding Lex's preferences, but I think we should give Greg the benefit of the doubt: he'll fill in those gaps as the comic continues. A despite Brook's point, I think Greg has earned the right to tell that story in his world so far.
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 12:14:33 pm EST from 128.101.32.234

Did you see Brooklyn around Demona, Broadway around Guns, Bronx around... well, pretty much everybody...

He has his nemesis. All of them have. But apart from that, he's the most gentle and quiet of them.

@ Rebel: I would love to hear it. :)

This is another question, on a broader scale, I'd like to know: In the end, do you guys prefer writers to work on one timespan/project only (kind of like how Christopher Nolan is approaching his work) or on a huge timeline/different projects?
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 12:10:25 pm EST from 84.191.199.128

Sorry, that was me.
Supermorff
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 11:52:10 am EST from 83.245.110.2

Brook> You think Lex is the most gentle? Really? Did you see him around the Pack in those early episodes?
Anonymous
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 11:51:38 am EST from 83.245.110.2

Brook > Well, it's extremely complicated. I've done a mental "analysis" of Lexington's character, so to speak, and I've noticed an aspect of his character that Greg Weisman seems to have overlooked. Now that I've noticed it, it seems totally obvious and I don't see how Greg Weisman doesn't see it. Is it possible that I'm reading too much into things and my thoughts on his personality are totally wrong? Yes, that's a definite possibility. But based on what we've seen in the show and comics so far, I think my predictions about his character have a decent basis. And, I find my own conclusions about his character to be more interesting that the idea that he is gay.

It would take a really long time to type it up and explain it, so I'll have to wait until later. I'm at work right now. I'll try to get to it tonight or some night this week.
Rebel
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 11:48:22 am EST from 198.175.205.251

I also would love to add that Greg changed the series many times during its run, and that many things turned out different while he wrote them.

I know Greg has got a materplan that goes 200 years into the future, but I don't think that over the course of his writing, it will remain all the same.

Hell, I'm writing screenplays and they change all the time. :D Especially the day before they're handed in... :S

Although I'm not gay, I can see where Greg wants to take Lex character. There is this discussion about Batwoman going on right now and about her sexuality and how it is part of her persona, and I think this goes into the same direction. However, it is one of the things in the storyline that is hard to swallow because we've not accountered any sexuality in the Gargoyles world so far. Elisa and Goliath are on the brink of it, so may it be with Broadway and Angela and Brooklyn still has to... well, wait a bit. But apart from that, GARGOYLES kept its head out of it.
Or, sumed up: There is no character of whom sexuality is a valid point of his/her persona yet.

With Lex, it may change, but not necessarily.

@ Rebel: Just to be curious, what did you think about his future before Greg made him come out?
Personally, he was my candidate of the trio to die in the S3 finale. I don't know why, but it would have been quite a shock, cause he's the most "gentle" of them.
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 11:33:44 am EST from 84.191.199.128

I think the statement that anyone who is opposed to Lexington being homosexual is a bigot is ignorant. I'm gay (recently admitted this to myself) and I'm not a bigot, but I think that Lexington being gay, while still a reasonable possibility, is not the reasonable possibility that I like the most. It's just not how I see him at all. I understand that some people totally agree with this decision and in fact some people even suspected that he was gay beforehand. Good for them. But it's still not how I see him, and that doesn't make me a bigot.

Probably the biggest "red flag" that Lex is gay is the fact that he stopped pursuing Angela. Him being gay is only ONE of many possibilities for why he stopped pursuing her. There are other equally reasonable explanations, and there is one particular explanation that I like much better. A person who is disappointed with a path that Greg has chosen for a character because there is another path that they think makes even more sense is not a bigot. They just have their own opinions, to which they are entitled.
Rebel
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 11:21:32 am EST from 198.175.205.251

Personally I think #6 was something Greg had to tell, something people wanted to see, but it is so far the most "episodic" and most comic-relief of the comics. And I don't see why Thailog is wearing a toga... :S

But yeah, I think many people were anticipating this, and writing it in a mere 22 (or so) pages makes it hard to breathe life into it.
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 10:48:17 am EST from 84.191.207.242

Brook> "Personally, I think everybody should be free to discuss the pros and cons and his or her taste. There are also single issues I'm not that fond of during CLAN BUILDING (namely #6)"

Not to slam Greg W. or his work, but I have to agree. All the build-up, all the anticipation of waiting to read it (for years), and it just put me off. At least when compared to the excellent issues #3, #4, and #5. #6 was enjoyable at first, in the 'great, a new issue!' sense, but then it somewhat lost its' magic on me.

But then, maybe that stems from the fact that perhaps I'd set my expectations TOO high. And we had issues #7 and #8 (and perhaps soon, the TPBs?) to make up for it.

Of course
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 10:43:00 am EST from 99.187.186.151

i can't undstand you why do you stigmatize greg work? well there are some little defects but in the complete it is ok the problems are other or do you prefer some storyline like the 3 seasons >_<? yeah i'd like to see more suspance more magic and why not more darkness so i will waiting for the next copy of the comics ever disney give his autorization for copyrights laws
anonimus
4dcecd
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 10:26:17 am EST from 79.51.41.201

@ Demonskrye: Exactly my point. :)

Actually, the anian term at the ending is quite important. I don't want to make it sound as if people just ditch Greg for some reasosn, but there are some that might disagree with him in how he develops the characters and storylines after HUNTERS MOON.

Personally, I think everybody should be free to discuss the pros and cons and his or her taste. There are also single issues I'm not that fond of during CLAN BUILDING (namely #6), and I don't see why everybody gotta love them.

I wanted to give people who would like to discuss the future of the show a broader platform to talk interpretations and speculations, because even though Greg has laid open mny things, they're still subject to change and might so.
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 9:53:11 am EST from 84.191.207.242

I think that the "rushed timeline" tone about Goliath and Elisa's break-up and reunion was necessitated by the "Halloween Double Date" concept. The Hunter's Moon (which the second season ended) took place in late October in 1996, just a few days before Halloween. In order to use the Halloween masquerade, Greg Weisman had to have things take place in a short period of time.
Todd Jensen
www.gunnerkrigg.com/index2.php
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 8:15:14 am EST from 4.244.211.49

I think what is making this discussion into an argument is largely the use of the term "anti-Weisman," as if Greg or Greg's work is something you are either for or against with no middle ground. There are people who love "Gargoyles" who have issues with some of the story choices Greg (and/or the other people who have worked on the canon material) has made. I don't think there's much debate about that, or whether these people are "true Gargoyles fans." At least, there shouldn't be. As a fan, I enjoy the comics quite a bit, but that doesn't keep me from having issues with certain aspects of them or wondering different choices would have made the comic more accessible to new readers. I think Greg is a very talented writer, but he's also a human being and I'm not necessarily going to agree with every decision he makes.

The tone in here is starting to get a little argumentative again and I'm hoping this isn't going to turn into a cycle where we just continually have big arguments until Greg W sticks his head in and tells everyone to chill. If Brook wants to start up a new "Gargoyles" forum, fine. If Hayden isn't into the comics, fine. You can disagree and point out factual errors, but eventually it's going to come down to opinion vs opinion and I see nothing being stated or proposed that is really harmful to "Gargoyles" or anyone here.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 8:09:47 am EST from 146.115.115.33

:)
Thank you. :)

*Points at post*

SEE??? SEE???
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 7:53:27 am EST from 84.191.207.242

I have mixed feelings about the comics. Besides the changing art styles, I have issues with the story. It just feels to crammed and fast paced, as if Greg, now that he has the chance, is trying to tell as many things as possible.
Take for example the Elisa/Goliath relationship, they broke up almost immediately after "getting together" and made up in what amounts to one episode. It felt as if it had no impact and didn't resolve anything, I expected that the whole thing would happen a bit farther along the timeline and wouldn't be resolved to nillywilly.

The whole thing just feels too fast and too tightly packed, as if there is no breather in there.

As for Bad Guys, sure I have the issue and I'll get the tradepaperback, but only to find out the end of the story. I'm not particularly care for those characters and the comic felt somewhat disjointed.

I'd have preferred a story from Dark Ages over any of the other possibilities.
Anonymouse
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 7:51:32 am EST from 89.246.209.121

Also, since the internet itself is an abstract, I've come to met at least 2 persons who loved the show and owned them on tapes before the DVDs came out, but had mixed feelings about the comics and disliked the idea of TIMEDANCER and 2198, and abandoned new material.
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 7:37:42 am EST from 84.191.207.242

Ah guys, you and your sources...

GXB, I'm pretty sure you posted in that IMDB thread back when it was still on, looks like it got deleted.

However, there was one post last week discussing a personal disagreement about Coldstone (I wrote about that too) on this very CR. I dunno if it was last week or 2 weeks ago, but should be somewhere on here.

And I think you're making it pretty easy when saying "Yeah, it is about sexuality, the people are bigots." - notice how this must not be true. I remember somebody writing on a european board "I'm personally gay, and I think now is the point where Greg is exaggerating and forcing the character into a direction that wasn't there before!" - has that to do with bigotry? (said person also has expressed his dislike for the Timedancer arc - however, all this was before the comics got announced and the forum in question got erased and was in a different language, so a link would be kinda, uh, messy)

As for HP, even my mom, who is very liberal and not a big HP fan but read all the books nonetheless, had an issue with JKR going out after the last book was published and spilling the beans, because she also regarded it as something unfounded in the books.

Now of course people can cram all kinds of information together and twist it one or another way. People can always go "Yeah, Lex doesn't know yet and he's close to Staghart." but the other side can always say "Hell, he tried to impress Angela, Greg is just stretching things and taking them into another direction."

Keep in mind also that "anti-Weismanian" doesn't necesserily mean any beef with GW or his overall storyline, but a disagreement with the directions he's taking the show to.

One link: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108783/board/nest/102867126
There was another thread I mentioned that seems to have been erased, where several people expressed their disliking of Gregs answers towards their questions, with at least 5 people expressing strong feelings and voicing their intention to never return to S8.

I do not say I'm with these people, but they exist, and they should also discuss their views of the show or the continuation of it.
Brook
ALL NEW GARGOYLES FORUM: http://gargoyles.freeforums.org/
posted @ Mon, Mar 2, 2009 6:48:50 am EST from 84.191.207.242

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