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Gargoyles

The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending April 15, 2012

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I remember Lex's line in "Kingdom" when he's checking Xanatos's computer and he says there's no sign of Goliath, only the usual shady deals.
Richard Jackson

FTBM > Good point! Thanks!
RandomStan

@Randonstan - Guilt, fear and denial. She would have to tell them WHY she wanted them to hide - she'd have to admit what she'd done. Additionally, the bargain with the Captain was supposed to SAVE her clan from that fate (she probably convinced herself that the current inhabitants of the castle were the ones that would eventually betray them. The Princess's open disdain and contempt of the gargoyles probably only solidified that impression). She didn't realize that the monster was her all along until it was too late, and then she could never face it.
FTBM2010

My theory is that she knows that the Brooklyn who has just woken up is not the same older Brooklyn who Time-Danced back to the battle. Perhaps knowing that he is still young and naive, she hoped to sway him to her side. Then she could use his Time-Dancing to her advantage, telling him to do something differently and change the timeline (because at this point Vows hasn't happened so she doesn't know for sure that the timeline can't be changed).

Actually, now that I have Vows in my head, I have a different question. Demona had been shown the future of her smashed Clan and frozen mate by Demona of the future. Knowing that, why did she decide not to tell her Clanmates to hide with her when she knew the Vikings were coming? She had enough sense to hide herself but she stopped herself from telling 'Othello' and 'Desdemona'. Why would she do that, with the images of the massacre in her mind?

RandomStan

I think part of Brooklyn's appeal to Demona was his idealism. He was a young hero looking for a cause, and frustrated by their need to simply hide in the shadows. Demona thought she could convert that idealism into extremism, and she almost succeeded.
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]

Richard> Wouldn't bother me. Seems reasonable. Just be wary of speculation or assumption as always.

Oh, and keep in mind the exchange in "Kingdom":

Lexington: ... Nothing but the usual shady deals...
Xanatos: A man has to make a living.

Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"...nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure." - Ripley, "Aliens"

In response to my question recently, Greg said Xanatos has his hands in many pies when I asked if Xanatos really sold junk bonds or had involvement in Wall Street. http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=14563

Would I be reaching if I added on Xanatos Enterprises' page on GargWiki about them selling junk bonds? They most certainly have a prescence on Wall Street. I guess I could write something like "XE has involvement in shady international trading or investment schemes."

Richard Jackson

Why would a shapeshifter go through so much trouble? Keep in mind that had Brooklyn never come to 997, it was unlikely Demona would've ever gotten her hands on the Grimorum again. She only had it because of his actions.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"...nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure." - Ripley, "Aliens"

Is it possible that as of Temptation, perhaps Demona believes the "Brooklyn" she met in 997 was not Brooklyn at all but a shapeshifter who chose to present himself to her in a familiar form so as to steal the Grinorum without her suspecting?
Rebel

Greg Weisman admitted recently that he didn't have the events of Brooklyn's Time Dancing in mind when he wrote Temptation, obviously. http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=14585

I do think it's fun to watch an old episode knowing now what we didn't know then. It reminds me when older Obi-wan Kenobi gives R2 a look when supposedly meeting him the first time in Episode IV. (Ducks tomatoes for making a Star Wars reference.)

Back on topic, I always thought that Demona approached Brooklyn because Lexington was featured in the Pack episode, and Broadway in the Elisa gun episode so it was Brooklyn's time to shine. Like any villain, Demona was looking to recruit and manipulate so I don't think she specifically targeted Brooklyn or scoped him out for a few weeks. I admit that I don't know how a villain's mind works. I don't know if she woke up from stone sleep one day and said to herself, "Hmm, I think I'm going to f*** with Brooklyn today." Haha. :)

Anthony Tini

@Richard Thanks so much. I must have missed that.

@ GregX - I assume if the spell were memorized she would have to find a different "channel" to cast through, but I'm unclear as to how its supposed to work in Garg universe. I take that from this:
"The piece of paper with the spell on it. The Page. Not the book. That's the point, I was making as I believe you understand. And what makes that page special is the terms of the (verbal) spell itself. The spell (verbal) wanted to give the spell-caster a means of holding and/or transferring control of the slave. By giving that control to the person who held the document, the spell defined its own terms.

And no, I never said that the spell was broken or at least never meant to. I was referring to the page. And whether or not that page was destroyed, i.e. whether or not this paper control device could fall into the wrong hands, so to speak.

Finally, as I've noted before. You cannot simply read a spell and do magic . Becoming a spell caster takes years of practice. It's not just the words. It's about conduits and hand motions and control of emotion and thought and concentration. The caster is manipulating energies. The words are only a piece of the puzzle. Can't do the spell without them. But having the words on a legal pad isn't sufficient. " - that was one of Greg's answers

Which made me wonder does every spell have to be spoken off the page it was written on? Or does it depend on the type of magic a sorcerer is practicing? Or can a memorized spell be transferred and worked thru a different channel, as I mentioned above? I think the Guatemalan gargs practice a bit but I have no idea if they use books at all. Maybe its more folk-type magic. I can't find that question/Answer at the moment though so maybe I just made that up in my head :)

I'd assume with a thousand years of at least semi-regular practice and study under her belt (and Greg DID say she has no hobbies, other than study and practice of various means to gather power and commit genocide, sorcery among them), she's probably more accomplished than the Magus. As for the Archmage, most of his power came from the combination of the three artifacts. I guess it would be hard to qualify that kind of thing though. And it may come down to a difference in attitude...the Archmage and Magus , and maybe even Una, struck me as "vocational" sorcerers - their whole identities wrapped up in it, whereas Demona seems to view it as just another tool she happens to have a knack for using. She doesn't seem to define herself as a sorceress, that I've noticed.

FTBM2010

Demona is a skilled sorceress, but you can't just memorize an incantation and cast a spell. Magic in the Gargoyles Universe does not work that way. I tend to think the Archmage and the Magus were more skilled than her as sorcerers and as far as we know, neither of them created any spells.

The Roman Magus wrote the Grimorum, I think.

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
"Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood." - Goliath, "The Journey."

FTBM2010> Demona has used all but one of the the spells she tore from the Grimorum. http://s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=1515

Matt> Well, if Demona recalled their 997 battle together, then she would have known that Brooklyn is a great planner and that he has a great ability to convince others.

Richard Jackson

Maybe since Brooklyn was the one who took the Grimorum from her in the first place, she just thought that he should be the one to bring it back to her.

btw, did Greg ever say how many spells she has kept/memorized from the Grimorum? Or if she has other grimoires, that she's either stolen or written herself?

FTBM2010

Alright guys. Only about 28 hours, 30 minutes to discuss this before the room clears and I'd love to hear your thoughts.

I watched "Temptation" today because I was thinking about Brook's encounter with Demona in 997. Greg has indicated that one way or another over the centuries Demona figures out that Brooklyn was under the sleep spell, does survive it, wakes up eventually and travels into the past.

What we don't know is exactly what Demona thought about all this. How did it change her perceptions of Brook? And why did she choose to approach him for her "Temptation" scheme? In some ways the events of 997 should've made her see Brook as someone she COULDN'T trust. Also, in the ep, she shows knowledge of Lexington's recent failure with the Pack. Why didn't she go to him instead of Brook? His betrayal by humans and more volatile temper might've made him a better choice, right? I refuse to believe that Demona simply approached Brooklyn because he was the only one who was alone at the time. She'd obviously been keeping tabs on the clan for a while and chose her moment.

So, what's up? I'd love to hear more thoughts on this. And I know some of you probably have some interesting ideas. Lets hear them.

Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"...nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure." - Ripley, "Aliens"

I'm with you guys, I was disappointed by the lack of beaked females in fanart but am immensely happy to see one in canon.

And I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who thought Ophelia looked weird and a bit dino-ish. When I was little and first saw her, I remember that my child brain wondered if her brain was weirdly shaped and stored in her massive head-piece.

RandomStan

Pterobat> Agreed. I've always though "Kermit" was cool-looking, for instance. And a lot of the Ishimura background gargoyles were really awesome too.

As for Ophelia, I don't really see the triceratops look all that much. For one, its not like she has a nose horn or whatever. But really, lots, maybe even most, gargoyles have big brow horns. And while her crest is exceptionally large, it isn't unique. Most of the Mayan gargoyles apparently have crests. I suppose if Obsidiana or Turquesa had been hatched with big brow horns, people would be calling them triceratops-looking too.

For me, Ophelia's most unique feature, at least among Wyvern descended gargoyles, is her two-toed foot. She is the only gargoyle outside of the Ishimura Clan to have that feature.

It reminds me of someone asking Greg many years ago why the English gargoyles were so different from the Wyvern/Ishimura/Mayan type, to which both Greg (in his response) and myself (reading it) objected to the latter notion.

English gargoyles are very distinct, but I'd be pretty confident in identifying a gargoyle's clan from the other three as well. Even without wardrobe clues.

Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"...nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure." - Ripley, "Aliens"

I love Ophelia's design, hence why she's my avvie. :)

A lot of the secondary and background gargoyles have great designs, but fandom seems to ignore those, perhaps because they don't have characters attached to them.

Pterobat - [incisivis@gmail.com]

I think all Gargoyles are beautiful except ones that look like Ophelia. I'm personally not a fan of the triceratops-looking head.
Anthony Tini

I personally think that beaked Gargoyles are absolutely beautiful - but I'm not normal. xD
I also think Anonymous is right.

Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!

According to David Hilliam's "Monarchs, Murders, and Mistresses: A Book of Royal Days", today (April 13) is the anniversary of the Stone of Destiny's return to Westminster Abbey after the 1950 Christmas theft. The book goes on to give a history of the Stone of Destiny in this entry, with a lot of material that will be familiar to everyone who's read the Stone of Destiny story in "Clan-Building", all the way to its return to Scotland in 1996. (According to the book, three of the four Scottish nationalists who broke into the Abbey and took the Stone were present at its ceremonial arrival at Edinburgh.)

Today is also the birthday of Thomas Jefferson, who might have been the ancestor of a certain high-ranking Illuminatus in the White House staff.

Todd Jensen

Greg's Helpers are doing an excellent job too.
Richard Jackson

Wow, Greg is *powering* through that backlog. At that rate, it'll be gone in three weeks.
Spen

I think Pterobat is right. For a long time, artists didn't really have a beaked female "role model" in the canon, so they didn't often draw beaked females.
Rebel

Concerning artists favoring more aesthetically "human" faces when drawing female gargoyles, it all boils down to two things: because said artists are human to begin with, they tend to relate to that particular form. And of course, the "fanservice" nature of the beast. Seems we can't ever get away from that!
Anonymous

Is Disney releasing Gargoyles Season 2, Volume 2 on DVD this year?
Jonny - [jmodlin210@gmail.com]
Jonny Modlin

Ryn> I like "Friendship is Magic" well enough--not to the depths of the internet's obsession, but it's a neat show. What jumped out to me for Bri-Chan's art was that all the characters are wearing modern human clothing. I suppose with Applejack's cowboy had this was going to happen, but it reminds me how uncommon it is for gargoyles fan characters to have the kinds of outfits gargoyles actually wear. Most fans put them in modern clothing instead.

Comet> Yeah, that bugged me too, that most female gargoyles fan characters have a humanoid appearance. I chalk it up to, partially, fans "copying" unconsciously the main designs from canon, the same way that all beaked fan gargoyles have features similar to Brooklyn's, most female fan characters are unconsciously based on Demona, Desdemona, Delilah, or Angela.

That said, there are some female fan characters with beaks out there, though having one in canon is more important and significant, IMO.

Pterobat - [incisivis@gmail.com]

In reference to my earlier Email to DisneyXD Canada. If you haven't already written to DisneyXD in the US about the issues of censoring and episode order, it might do well to do so. If the parent station in the US will make the change to the censored episodes-maybe that would translate to other countries like Canada.
For Battle Beast and any other Canadian Garg fans-it might do well to drop a note to DisneyXD.ca as well. Maybe if they get enough people on their case about it, they'll really look into it (Not to forget mentioning season 3-which I didn't. They aired the Journey once!)
I only suggest this again in case we don't end up getting the S2V2 DVDs that we keep hoping for.

Wingless

That's what I was thinking. Instead of horns, maybe Rarity and Twilight should have beaks. I was just happy to see two of my favorite fandoms put together (I'm a brony and have gotten Jurgan liking the show as well).
Ryn Ghatori - [rynghatori@yahoo.com]

Ryn: As the resident brony (or one of them, at least) I must voice my heavy, heavy approval for that glorious piece of art. I especially like that the two pegasi have feathered, London Clan-style wings.

I do agree, though, that a beak or two would be welcome. Perhaps on the two unicorns (who seem to lack horns for...some reason)? Honestly, Rarity would look stunning either way.

I am slightly worried for the fate of any Clan led by Twilight Sparkle, though.

"A gargoyle can no more stop getting their homework in on time than breathing the air! MY WHOLE LIFE DEPENDS ON IT!"

Masterdramon - [kmc12009@mymail.pomona.edu]
"Lets go surfin' now, everybody's learning how! Come on and safari with me!" - The Beach Boys

I like the idea but I'm bothered by the fact that not a single one of them has a beak. Today I looked at some old fanart and found NOT ONE female Gargoyle with a beak... after that I was again so happy to have the canon characters of Constance (who is not "cute" at all) and Katana (who has a beak).
Seeing to many "cute Gar-Girls" makes me sick... I don't know what's so beautiful about a doll's face?

Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!

Been a while since I've posted on here. I found this today and wanted to share it with you all. I'm not sure how many of you like My Little Pony, but this artwork is great! It's characters of MLP as gargoyles.
http://bri-chan.deviantart.com/art/my-little-gargoyle-260929522?q=gallery%3Abri-chan%2F125308&qo=3

Ryn Ghatori - [rynghatori@yahoo.com]

I will do this if nobody here knows it, but honestly it wouldn't be good for my limited connection to load the video again now. I should have asked there first, I know *sigh*
The comment room is eating almost no MB, other than YT, and since the videos load again everytime you access them...

Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!

COMET> Why don't you ask in the comments section of Gargoyles Abridged 6?
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
"Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood." - Goliath, "The Journey."

Sorry for asking another question, but I don't find any information about this.
So, what exactly is that Pack song played in Gargoyles Abridged 6? I mean, what's the title of the song and the name of the band? I really like the melody...

Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!

FTBM2010> Different clans have different interpretations of the "Gargoyles Protect" creed. I personally see it as a deeply ingrained instinct (Nature) that can manifest in various forms depending on circumstances, clan culture and a given gargoyle's personal worldview.

From an evolutionary stand point protecting the rookery is probably the "default" manifestation. But just as humans developed complex social structures around such basic biological drive as eating and mating, so gargoyles built various philosophies and ideologies around their territorial instincts.

On one end of the scale we have Hudson's very basic "someone has to guard the Clocktower" attitude from Awakenings, and on the opposite end of the spectrum you have the Korean gargs who have apparently taken it upon themselves to "protect" an abstract concept.

Algernon

Hi there, I'm delurking for a second b/c you guys are kind of bringing up something I had a question about but wasn't sure how to phrase. Specifically I'm wondering about nurture vs nature when it comes to the Gargoyles. Demona, for example, is by nature a gargoyles but I think it can be said that her "nurture" has been primarily human...other than the first 100 years or so, that she lived mostly amongst gargoyles, we can guess that the next 900 years her exposure has been primarily towards humans. And she can certainly be argued to be the most "adapted" of the gargoyles, in a cultural regard. Which is why she often seems to react to things, like Angela, more as a human would. Is that nurture overriding instinct, or are Gargoyle customs not so much instinct as much as their own form of socialization (nurture) that they developed? Another example would be Goliath's insistence that gargoyles "protect" - he got that from Hudson, obviously, "gargoyles can no more stop protecting the castle than breathing the air" but Demona eschews that. She's not unique in that regard however - the Greek, Xanadu, Korean and even London clans don't seem to extend "protection" beyond their own rookeries and immediate territory, and have operated so for centuries. This is something that's expected for any species, including humans - protect the home first, and there doesn't seem like there would necessarily be any more to it than that, but Goliath at least seems to think that it is a Gargoyles nature to protect, and he's not just talking about rookeries.
Thoughts?

FTBM2010

RANDOMSTAN> They are not Humans With Wings. And even as far as Goliath is still concerned, the biological connection still doesn't matter. What Diane pointed out to him was that Angela is his daughter by any definition, including the gargoyle definition.

The biological connection does matter to Demona... the most corrupt of gargoyles. She has started thinking like a human. Think about that for a while.

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
"Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood." - Goliath, "The Journey."

RandomStan> I'm not sure about more closely but I think he would probably have bonded more quickly with Ophelia or Gabriel without the angst over "playing favourites" or worrying so much about Demona luring them to the dark side.

If anything, I think Goliath's initial problem was that he was fixating on Angela's biological parentage just as much as she was, only to the opposite extreme. It's important to keep in mind that Angela is Goliath's daughter by any definition.

As for Demona, Greg has mentioned that the biological connection probably means a bit more to her but I think that's perfectly in keeping with her character. For all Demona's ranting about how Goliath has been "corrupted" by humans, she's the gargoyle who seems to have picked up the most "bad habits" from humanity.

Algernon

Braniac > You say that, but how many gargoyles have taken up human habits? Goliath and Demona certainly both see Angela as their daughter in a much different way that they would view Gabriel, Ophelia, or the rest of the Avalon Clan as their children. And Angela is fixated with her biological heritage.

In know I'm playing the 'what if' game but part of me can't help but wonder if Goliath would have bonded as closely if any other member of the Avalon Clan besides his biological daughter had come along for the World Tour.

RandomStan

RandomStan> As has been said before, quit thinking like a human.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

Greg B > Fair point, thank you.

Speaking of old habits, does Hudson and the Trio know or care that Angela is the biological daughter of Goliath and Demona?

Goliath introduces her to the Clan as his daughter but I can't tell if they know he means his biological daughter or if they think he means 'she is my daughter in the way that her entire rookery generation are my children'. And Demona makes it very obvious she acknowledges Angela as her biological daughter.

But does the rest of the Clan know or care?

RandomStan

Richard Jackson> They actually did leave the wives bit in.

As for the DVDs, I attribute lack of some episodes to the DVDs just not being finished as scenes that were removed due to censorship were implemented in the DVD (notably the terrorist line in City of Stone).

Antiyonder

Wingless> You're thinking of "Last Horizons" not "I Have Ice Only for You" and actually, "Last Horizons" DID make it on to the Talespin Volume 2 DVDs. I have them. That's also the episode where Greg Weisman most certainly did NOT have any lines because he wasn't Union then.
Chip
"The next time you set up shop in the biggest state, don't pick the area that's only ten miles wide. Welcome to Canada, idiot"--Frank Zhang

Todd> I remember Darkwarrior setting down the laws as well. I looked at the episode on youtube. Someone posted the DVD version. One of the laws Darkwarrior perscribes death for is "coveting wives". I'm surprised they got away with that then. But I'm sure Toon Disney erased the line.

It was such a well written episode. I like how Launchpad was fired by Darkwarrior for going soft because he suggested they give criminals a trial before execution.

Richard Jackson

Thank You Greg. ^_^
Disney edits: As I recall-there was at least one episode of "Tale Spin" that Disney also refused to play-and it's also why it has not turned up on the 2 DVD sets. If I recall-it's called "I Only Have Ice For You". Can't remember the whole reason behind the refusal to air it - but frankly I'm getting tired of the censoring.
Here in Canada-we don't have Boomerang. We have Teletoon Retro. Since it's launch-their limited broadcast of Warner Brothers shorts has been largely limited to the old ABC "Bugs Bunny & Tweety Show". As we know, ABC had one of the tightest BS&P boards for their Saturday morning programming. Most of the WB cartoons were censored-and many they didn't include at all because of "violence", racial stereotypes, adult references(Free Beer sign in "one Froggy Evening" for example). I've been bugging for years to get them to pick up unedited shorts and last year they finally did. It's still a limited batch and they're still running BB&TS - but at least we're getting a decent batch of Unedited and remastered WB cartoon shorts on TV. Sometimes it doesn't hurt to send a letter/email. Squeaky wheel gets the grease and all that.

Wingless

WINGLESS - Congratulations on getting a thank-you from Greg Weisman himself!

JURGAN - [Wonder if he inspired the Eye of Odinized Goliath from Eye of the Storm?]

I'd never thought of that before. As I've said a few times in the past, what I most thought of when I saw "Eye of the Storm" was "The Lord of the Rings"; Odin wanted his Eye back for much the same reason that Sauron wanted the One Ring back - his power had diminished since he had parted with it and he needed to recover it to be restored to his full strength of old. And Goliath's donning the Eye to battle Odin, only to be corrupted by it in the process, reminded me of how anyone trying to use the Ring to defeat Sauron would end up turning into just as bad a tyrant as Sauron himself. (Though, of course, the Odin of "Gargoyles" wasn't as bad as Sauron - and admitted himself at the end that he should have handled the situation better than he did - not to mention that here, returning the Eye to him was the right solution.)

But I remember that episode of "Darkwing" fondly as well. (One of my favorite parts was Darkwarrior Duck imagining what he could do with a time machine - such as going back to ancient Babylon to "improve" the Code of Hammurabi by decreeing the death penalty for everything, including waking up in a grumpy mood - or meeting the first duck-fish to crawl out of the sea in Paleozoic times with a few rules for living on dry land, whereupon the prehistoric duck-fish decides that living in the sea isn't such a bad idea after all.)

Todd Jensen

For what it's worth, the Darkwarrior Duck episode is unedited on DVD (specifically Volume 2).
Antiyonder

Thanks, Wingless. Good letter.
Greg Weisman

"Anyway the edited scene: In the original, Darkwarrior points his gas gun at Gosalyn to which she acts unimpressed. A tiny rocket comes out of the gas gun but Darkwarrior doesn't fire it. Instead, he threatens Gosalyn and almost pulls the trigger, but finds that he cannot do it because she is his daughter. He then gets whacked over the head by Launchpad. In the edit, he pulls out the gas gun and get whacked over the head.

So thanks, Toon Disney. You erased the redemptive qualities of a character, erasing his complexity because "guns are bad!""

Ugh, that's awful, especially given that that's one of my favorite episodes. Forget Negaduck, Taurus Bulba, or even Paddywhack- all great villains, but nobody was as terrifying as Darkwarrior Duck. Wonder if he inspired the Eye of Odinized Goliath from Eye of the Storm?

Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]

Comet> Good question. It bothers me too... especially in regards to having accurate character information on GargWiki. I'm still not sure if what we have is satisfactory over there.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"...nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure." - Ripley, "Aliens"

Wingless> The biggest edit I can remember from Toon Disney in America on other shows was an episode of Darkwing Duck, "Time and Punishment." Darkwing's daughter Gosalyn goes to an alternate future where Darkwing has taken control of the city and wiped out all crime, dubbing himself "Darkwarrior Duck".

Anyway the edited scene: In the original, Darkwarrior points his gas gun at Gosalyn to which she acts unimpressed. A tiny rocket comes out of the gas gun but Darkwarrior doesn't fire it. Instead, he threatens Gosalyn and almost pulls the trigger, but finds that he cannot do it because she is his daughter. He then gets whacked over the head by Launchpad. In the edit, he pulls out the gas gun and get whacked over the head.

So thanks, Toon Disney. You erased the redemptive qualities of a character, erasing his complexity because "guns are bad!"

Richard Jackson

Wingless> I guess it's a case of being asleep at the wheel so to speak. But going back to your letter and the double standard you first mentioned, I do hear on some discussions that despite there being limits, that comedic cartoons are allowed more freedom I guess because the lack of drama lessons the intensity.

But that's just passing a speculation, so don't take it as a fact.

Antiyonder

Who do you think died in the scene when Duncan attacked Demona's Clan in 1040? That scene drives me insane!
Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!

Antiyonder - exactly why I had brought it up. They're also airing the original X-Men, the 90's Spider Man, Fantastic Four, Iron Man & the Legend Of Tarzan in the wee hours of the morning. I don't know these shows as well as Gargoyles but I also don't see any obvious edits like there are in Gargoyles. I pay close attention to the music and dialogue. Often when there's an edit, there's a abrupt skip in the music.
I realize now that I made an error in one of the examples i mentioned in my email. In "Ill Met Till Moonlight" Elisa was talking about her gun partially being made of Iron, and then the discussion of "wares" - it was that segment that was cut. Still that was the edit and it destroys the whole context of that scene. One edit I should have mentioned was in "Leader Of The Pack" where Lex blows a whole through Coyote(they leave that in)-then Goliath Kicks the head off (which they do edit out, that and the later blast off from the deck of the oil tanker). Then in one of the "Previously On Gargoyles" segments to a later episodes-they leave that in. Pointless!

Wingless

BISHANSKY - Ah, thanks. Now I know it's been too long since I saw Season One, since once you mentioned it, I *did* remember that line.

(For those who haven't read the "Inferno", the ninth circle of Hell in Dante's depiction is frozen ice, with the evil-doers being punished there stuck in the ice up to their heads (or, in some cases, over). Which would mean that "when Hell freezes over" isn't such an apt way of saving "never".)

Todd Jensen

TODD> Season one, actually.

Betty: Mr. Jameson is a good man. Down deep.
Peter: Are we talking Marianas Trench deep, or Dante's Ninth Circle deep?

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
"Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood." - Goliath, "The Journey."

A question for Bishansky. You mentioned in your review of "Performance" at "Ask Greg" that "The Spectacular Spider-Man" included a reference to Dante's "Divine Comedy". Which season was that? Since I can't remember such a reference at present, I'm assuming that it was Season Two (which I haven't seen), but there might have been a Dante reference in Season One that I've forgotten. (I know it had Shakespeare references - Aunt May and Anne Watson were going to see a production of "The Merry Wives of Windsor" in the Sinister Six episode, and I'd read about the "Midsummer Night's Dream" school play in Season Two.)
Todd Jensen

Wingless> In that case I find it odd that they didn't address the double standard you mentioned.
Antiyonder

Battle Beast: Thanks. I just went to the DisneyXD canada website. www.disneyxd.ca They have a Contact us section.

Greg Weisman: well I'm not brilliant writer(letter writer or otherwise), I just sent DisneyXD Canada some examples of the edits-as well as one of the other things they air that they don't edit that maybe they should-givent the edits in Gargoyles. For better or worse-here's the letter:

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Hello Disney XD,

As a fan of some of the older Disney programs that are being run late night/early morning on Disney XD, I take great offence that a program like "Gargoyles" would be censored. A program that teaches many values: honor, respect, caring for your family, don't judge someone simply by their looks(just to name a few), small scenes are cut out of episodes for ridiculous reasons. For instance-in Season 1, episode 11: "Long Way To Morning", a scene is cut with Hudson building and lighting a torch with 2 flint rocks. Why exactly? Season 2, episode 22 "City Of Stone-Part 1", the word "Terrorist" is edited out twice. Since when is the word "Terrorist" a 4 letter word? In Season 2, episode 55 "Ill Met By Moonlight" Elisa(who is a police woman, by the way) happens to mention that she's out of bullets. This little bit of dialogue is cut out of the episode. There is actually a point to her saying it and it messes up the whole scene. These are but 3 of dozens of pointless edits that have been made to this brilliant program. Not to overlook the fact that the program is airing at 2 and 4 AM in the morning when most young people under 12 would not be watching. A program like Gargoyles is censored, yet you regularly run an ad for Kick Buttowski which has 2 kids racing around the yard with gas powered lawn mowers-and in one scene, one of the racers tips the mower up on it's side exposing the spinning blade(something you should NEVER do). I'm not saying I have a problem with that-it's a cartoon after all. I'm only pointing out the ridiculousness of the edits to Gargoyles while things that could potentially be "questionable" do get aired. Since there are some episodes that are not censored, this is not being done for time issues. Could you please explore obtaining the uncensored episodes?

My second point about Gargoyles is concerning it's running order. It's a program that has continuity. The episodes need to be run in order for the program to make sense. There is a production order(the order in which the programs were produced) and the correct running order. As a fan of Gargoyles for 18 years, I'm well aware of what I'm talking about. The correct order can be found here (note the mention on the page from the show's creator Greg Weisman): http://www.gargoyles-fans.org/reviews/index.htm

I would really appreciate anything you can do to remedy these issues.

Thank you,

David Sampson

Wingless

Wingless> Thanks for taking the time to write your letter. As a fellow Canuck, i'd love to have the adress you wrote to so I can send a tactful letter.

PAX> Just got back from PAX East in Boston (nice city, btw), and while there I got to try out Gargoyles for the Sega Genesis, and I saw a girl (yes, a girl) dressed up as Goliath.

Battle Beast - [Canada]
I DID IT!!! I WATCHED ALL 485 BEST PICTURE NOMINEES IN ONE YEAR!!!

Don't know if anyone else has seen this and posted it already, since I have not checked the comment room for a couple of weeks.

I when to see "Hunger Games" this weekend, and they showed a trailer for Johnny Depp's new movie "Dark Shadows". And in the trailer, Depp's character says "What Sorcery is this". One of my favorite Gargoyles lines.

Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]

RANDOMSTAN> Old habits die hard.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
"Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood." - Goliath, "The Journey."

I'm continuing on with my Gargoyles marathon and had a curiosity wander through my mind.

When Goliath meets the Avalon Clan, he expresses surprise that the princess, Tom, and the Magus had given the eggs names. Why is he so surprised by that?

His Clan in Manhattan took names after a few days in the city and he knows humans name everything they see. Plus I doubt he gave the humans much of a lesson in how to raise gargoyle babies before he had the Magus stone him.

Goliath gets over it pretty quickly, especially since then he meets other Clans with names. But every time I heard him utter in surprise, 'You've given them names?', I just wondered 'They're humans, what did you expect them to do?'

RandomStan

David Tennant
Algernon

Nein!
Chip
"The next time you set up shop in the biggest state, don't pick the area that's only ten miles wide. Welcome to Canada, idiot"--Frank Zhang

Well, technically, you are 8... Next will be 9.

Still, yes, slow countdown(up?).

Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"...nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure." - Ripley, "Aliens"

I'm surprised that I can still nab #7 at this point (still posting from work because I can't access Station 8 from home), but eh, what're ya gonna do.

Nice to hear that you were able to snag some small victory there, though, Wingless. :)

And now onto the oh-so-lovely weekend queue...

Masterdramon - [kmc12009@mymail.pomona.edu]
"Lets go surfin' now, everybody's learning how! Come on and safari with me!" - The Beach Boys

Hey Wingless,

I'd be interested in reading the letter you wrote to them that generated that response. Just out of curiosity.

Greg Weisman

I'll take #6:
It's been about 6 months that we've been getting Gargoyles in Canada again-on the "Canadianized" version of Disney XD - I thought I'd drop them a note about 1) the censoring of the episodes and 2) the running the episodes out of order. After about a month waiting for a reply, here's what I got:
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Thank you for taking the time to write to us about the series Gargoyles that currently airs on Disney XD. We value and appreciate your feedback and would like to take this opportunity to respond to your concerns.

Please be assured that scheduling programming that will be both suitable and entertaining while meeting the demands of our viewing audience is a responsibility we take very seriously. Each program and interstitial aired on Disney XD undergoes an internal screening process and review by our programming team to ensure it meets licence requirements and programming standards with respect to language, behaviour, mature themes and violence. We make every effort to exercise our discretion with caution and greatly appreciate being able to take into account feedback from viewers such as yourself.

We understand that you are offended by the �censoring� that occurs in some episodes of Gargoyles. While we recognize your concern, we want you to know that the episodes that currently air on our network are the only versions that have been made available for Disney XD Canada. Due to the fact that the scenes omitted violate Disney�s standards and practices guidelines for children�s programming, we will continue to air the episodes in their current format.

To your point about the series lacking on-air continuity, after careful examination of our programming schedule we agree that the second season of Gargoyles was indeed out of sequence. The Disney XD programming schedule has been adjusted to reflect the correct order when it encores again in May.

We�d like to commend you for taking an active interest in what you watch. We do regret that a program on our network has caused you concern and we hope that you will continue to watch Disney XD.
Thank you again for taking the time to contact us.

Best regards,
Ginger Bertrand
Disney XD
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Frankly, I would have taken the uncensored episodes run out of order rather than the Censored ones run in order-but what can ya do? I love that the scenes are edited "Due to the fact that the scenes omitted violate Disney�s standards and practices guidelines for children�s programming" Um, the series was created by Disney! The episodes were run unedited and without commercials on another Canadian network (Family Channel) owned by the same people that own DisneyXD 11 years ago-that being Astral. Finally, They're running Gargoyles at 2 or 4 BLESSED AM!!

Anyway-my vent for the day. I just thought you'd like to hear what they had to say on the subject.

Wingless

FIFTH!
Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible . . . I hope it lasts," -- Willy Wonka

I have been called a square before, you know. Never two-squared, though.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

....... third.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"...nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure." - Ripley, "Aliens"

Dang. Well, how about log(100)?
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]

I claim 0!, 1!, 2/2, 3 C 3, and numerous other ways of saying the same number.
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]

1st
Anthony Tini