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Gargoyles

The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending March 3, 2003

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He was Cute in the cloning Episodes!
Anonymous - [none]
Lexington, Kentucky, America
Sunday, March 2, 2003 07:16:37 PM
IP: 206.176.199.68

I didn't think it was right for For Derek not to change back into a human, Although I did enjoy the Dr. Sevarios- Derek episodes.
Jacob Nelson - [nelson@palace.net.net]
Portage, Wisconsin, America
Sunday, March 2, 2003 07:11:14 PM
IP: 206.176.199.68

SMOKE - You wrote: [Anyone here?]

I think everyone is waiting for the room to be wiped. Things should pick up in a couple of hours when the Top Ten starts.


TODD - You wrote: [Her team-ups with Brooklyn and Thailog both went sour (although in the Thailog case, that did strike me as more his fault than hers), certainly.]

Can we really define her dealings with Brooklyn in TEMPTATIONS as a team-up? For it to be a real team up wouldn't both parties have to be open and in agreement about their main goals and methods? I think that with Brooklyn its probably more accurate to call it more of a manipulation than a real team-up.

You wrote: [Puck provided some embarrassment for her, but nothing too serious or life-threatening]

I think that an agonizing, painful, life altering transformation once every 12 hours is something serious even if it isn't life threatening. But here her reaction is different; if it had been a Human who had cast a spell on her, she'd be foaming at the mouth with rage and strengthened in her desire to want all Humanity destroyed. But with Puck and his spell, she's mostly directed her hatred towards Puck rather than started to hate all the Fey as an entire race.

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Sunday, March 2, 2003 05:38:15 PM
IP: 12.88.195.189

Anyone here?
Smoke
Sunday, March 2, 2003 02:53:11 PM
IP: 66.119.33.170

AIRWALKER - [I could see them forming an allience but I can't see it being something firm or long lasting; but aside from that I don't think that she would have any problems working with Magneto. After all she was willing to work with Xanatos and I imagine she'd eventually ally herself with anyone she thought could help her further her goal.]

My thoughts exactly. Demona would probably agree to a temporary alliance (on the basis of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend") but be secretly plotting to get rid of Magneto and his mutant followers the moment that she's gotten rid of the ordinary humans and no longer needs mutant help.

Of course, Demona has a bad track record with allies, period. Her team-ups with Brooklyn and Thailog both went sour (although in the Thailog case, that did strike me as more his fault than hers), certainly.

I suspect that Demona hates humans a lot more than she hates Oberon's Children because humans played a bigger role in her immediate tragedies. (Puck provided some embarrassment for her, but nothing too serious or life-threatening, and as for the Weird Sisters - well, for one thing, they were ultimately working for a human, and also, their role would have been overshadowed in Demona's memory by the humans in her life). After all, it was humans, not Oberon's Children, who slaughtered the Wyvern clan in 994, who became Hunters and pursued her for almost a thousand years, and so on. And humans are a lot more conspicuous than the Third Race.

I don't know what Demona thinks of Nokkar, but she'd definitely be anti-Space-Spawn the moment that the Space-Spawn make off with all those gargoyle eggs....

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, March 1, 2003 06:59:55 PM
IP: 67.28.89.60

GREG BISHANSKY - You wrote: [But bascally, Magneto is one of the few mutants in the Marvel Universe who's sane.]

Only Claremont Magneto is sane; most of the other versions of Magneto tend to turn into some sort of raving lunatic eventually if they don't just start out that way. In fact I think that outside of Claremont only Joe Kelly ever did Magneto as anything close to sane.

You wrote: [I always thought Magneto was on the ball.]

I tended to sympathize with Claremont Magneto; he had all the right elements and Xavier just coming up short against him. How can you argue with someone who in the end did try doing things your way only to prove that your way is a miserable dead end failure? Even Lobdell Magneto had some points going for him at the beginning and kept overshadowing Xavier, and he was stark raving mad as a plot point when he did it.

You wrote: [You know, I'd like to see Magneto and Demona meet.]

I don't know if they'd get along that well; I'm sure that they could ally and work together if circumstances called for it but at the end of everything all Magneto wants is a world that is free and safe for Mutants to live in, but since Mutants are after everything is said and done just another type of Human being, eventually he'd come into conflict with Demona who wants a world completely empty of any Humans.

What I wonder is which one of them would win if a fight did break out between them? On the one hand Magneto has an instant advantage in that he has his powers at his immediate disposal and could probably hurt or even kill Demona in a first strike encounter. But on the other hand while Demona can be killed, she can't die. And while Magneto is all off guard thinking she's dead, she can cast a spell to neutralize his powers. And of course without his powers he's just an angry human against an immortal Gargoyle Warrior.


TODD - You wrote: [Of course, from what I've heard, nobody ever stays permanently dead in the Marvel Universe aside from Spiderman's Uncle Ben]

Thats in the SuperHuman portion of the Marvel Universe; the Xbooks which are almost basically an independent universe have just two characters who stay dead - Doug Ramsey and the original Thunderbird. It used to be three but they brought Warlock back to life in a mildly interesting series although in the end he was really just a hyped up version of Douglock.

You wrote: [Well, abandoning New York for the gargoyles would be much more difficult than abandoning the castle in "Enter Macbeth".]

Difficult but not impossible; the Gargoyles aren't saints. They are beings who decided to defend NYC. But they could just as easily decide to leave the city and quit defending it if the circumstanced dictated such a course of action.

And if we are talking about the Gargoyles in the Marvel Universe, its not even clear that they would have started to defend it to begin with. Would Goliath and Clan have come to the conclusion that they should defend the city if it were crawling with SuperHeroes, Sentinels, and Mutants?

You wrote: [Magneto might be willing to work with Demona (on the basis that they share a common foe - "ordinary" humans - so it would make sense for them to ally), but I wonder whether Demona would be as willing.]

I could see them forming an allience but I can't see it being something firm or long lasting; but aside from that I don't think that she would have any problems working with Magneto. After all she was willing to work with Xanatos and I imagine she'd eventually ally herself with anyone she thought could help her further her goal.

You wrote: [She strikes me, in general, as having a pretty low opinion of any sentient race other than gargoyles.]

There is no doubt how she feels about Humanity; and I have no doubt that she feels that Gargoyles are superior, that it is a gift to be a Gargoyle. But we don't really know what she thinks of other races; we don't know if she thinks of the Fey the same way she does about Humans or how she would relate to the various Space Aliens of the Gargoyles Universe. Her dealings with the Weird Sisters and Puck don't imply hate, at least nothing on the level she has for Humanity, and we could argue that those four have done more to her than most of the Human race combined.


THE QUESTION - You wrote: [Daredevil and Peter's parents]

I thought that Daredevil's mother was alive; wasn't she the Nun from Frank Miller's Born Again storyline?

You wrote: [many of the Morlocks]

Can't count the Morlocks; while they did technically die, most of those who did were faceless and nameless characters. The main known Morlocks managed to survive and are still wandering around the Marvel Universe. Plus the Morlocks being a group rather than an individual can always reconstitute themselves with another bunch of anonymous, hated Mutants.

You wrote: [Not even after Bush licked Magneto's boots while in his boxer shorts?]

The problem with that scene essentially covers the core problem with Ultimate X-Men - its so over the top that it misses the point. Magneto isn't supposed to be just some random supervillain who's using his powers to do what he wants for kicks; he has a goal and a purpose. Instead of just going for the kill and doing what needs to be done, he spends his time giving Xavier opportunities to stop him. Its one thing to be cold and calculating, to kill because he thinks its necessary to achieve the end he desires; its another to be a complete idiot which is what the character is. Ultimate Magneto is just a standard villain. He's completely interchangable with any other heartless villain in the Ultimate Marvel Universe, a bastardization of a once great character, all so the writers can continue writing Xavier as the second coming. They stripped him of all the politics and morality in his history and story to replace it with nothing - some anti-human slogans and some meaningless violence.

Thats one of the reasons I switched out almost completely from American Comics; I still flip through them from time to time and I still pick up a TPB or two if I think that the overall storyline is interesting (I just picked up the Ultimate Daredevil TPB for example although in the end its basically just an Ultimate Electra story; but its still an interesting story and a better read than whats going on in Ultimate X-Men) but otherwise I just buy lots of manga. Better storyline, stronger characterization, and more affordable. Until recently most comic issues wouldn't make it into TPB format and I don't want to spend five bucks on 32 pages of individual issue.

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Saturday, March 1, 2003 06:31:00 PM
IP: 12.88.163.66

Greg B> you're a Republican, arn't you? :)
matt
Saturday, March 1, 2003 02:51:26 PM
IP: 207.230.48.108

<<Not even after Bush licked Magneto's boots while in his boxer shorts?>>

Bush was naked actually. On his hands and knees cowering on the White House lawn licking Magneto's boots. Gods that scene was beautiful. Until Xavier, being the moron he is, just had to step in and stop Magneto from rightfully smiting the little bastard.

TODD> Demona is not completely irrational at all. She was willing to side with Xanatos to get what she wanted, she'd be willing to side with Magneto.

Greg Bishansky
Saturday, March 1, 2003 11:16:11 AM
IP: 216.179.6.201

Mutants may be persecuted by "ordinary humans", but I still believe that Demona would see mutants as being just another sub-breed of humanity. (She strikes me, in general, as having a pretty low opinion of any sentient race other than gargoyles). I doubt that she'd discriminate between mutants and non-mutant humans.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, March 1, 2003 07:04:29 AM
IP: 65.56.175.197

Airwalker<(I can't stand the Ultimate version of Magneto - he's just a mutant fascist vegetarian with no basic core purpose pushing him.>

Not even after Bush licked Magneto's boots while in his boxer shorts?

The Question
Saturday, March 1, 2003 01:01:27 AM
IP: 216.170.210.215

*rolls her eyes* sorry 'bout that....
Kessalia - [<< now with actual link!]
Saturday, March 1, 2003 12:46:52 AM
IP: 24.247.97.173

MGC is updated, new topic is posted and VOTING is up for Garg Beasts. :) Head on over and pic your fav sometime in the next couple weeks, pretty please? ;)
Kessalia - [<<Updated for March]
Saturday, March 1, 2003 12:46:05 AM
IP: 24.247.97.173

Hey...

Who would have thought Gargoyles cause people hurt themselves?

I keep a Brooklyn model I made (from an ICE STORM Brooklyn and REGULAR Brooklyn) on the top shelf of a medium sized bookcase. I went to get it and in doing so fell backwards... long story short the bookcase fell on my arm and broke it in three places. Luckily it's not my writing arm. I'll be laid up for seven weeks at least.

*SIGH*

Brooklyn escaped injury.

On another topic> Baron Mordo is Dead?!?! I never knew that. Very intersting...

And aren't Peter's parents supposed to be alive, having been in Russia all this time? (I read it on a Marvel Universe trading card.)

TODD WROTE> "Magneto might be willing to work with Demona (on the basis that they share a common foe - "ordinary" humans - so it would make sense for them to ally)," but I wonder whether Demona would be as willing.

-Yes, she would. She would know that's he is an intillectual match for herself. As well, she would see that mutants are another group feared and hated by humans; her type of "being." Another ally.

"After all, from her perspective, mutants would be just another group of humans - possibly even more dangerous to gargoyles than regular humans because of their powers."

-Demona has the strength advantage, but Magneto has the Magnetism - both compliament each other. Not just another type of human, but another group of "Shunned" beings.

"On the other hand, it would be like Demona to decide on an alliance of convenience with Magneto for now, with an outlook of "I can always get rid of him after I've disposed of the rest of humanity and no longer need his help.""

-She could THINK that, but she COULD NOT dump him like she'd want to. He's too smart for that.

(This took WAY too long to type with only one hand...)

Later~

Battle Beast / Pyro X
CanadaFriday, February 28, 2003 09:59:03 PM
IP: 205.206.79.107

Todd Jensen <Of course, from what I've heard, nobody ever stays permanently dead in the Marvel Universe aside from Spiderman's Uncle Ben....>

Actually it's only Bucky that stays dead, but i think you can add Captain Mar-Vell, Gwen and Captain Stacy, Harry Osborn, Mockingbird, Wildcat, Dr. Druid, Swordsman I, Daredevil and Peter's parents, Korvac, Nova, Airwalker I, Miss America, Count Nefaria, Baron Mordo and many of the Morlocks onto the list.

The Question
Friday, February 28, 2003 02:00:24 PM
IP: 216.170.210.75

Of course, from what I've heard, nobody ever stays permanently dead in the Marvel Universe aside from Spiderman's Uncle Ben....

Well, abandoning New York for the gargoyles would be much more difficult than abandoning the castle in "Enter Macbeth". Staying in Castle Wyvern would not actually have accomplished anything useful, since it was just an old stone building and the only people living in it apart from the clan were Xanatos and Owen, who were their enemies and the reason why they had to move out. Goliath's reasons for wanting to stay were merely "It's our ancestral home, our last link to the 10th century". But Manhattan is an entire community of humans whom the gargoyles have vowed to protect. Turning their backs on the humans and abandoning them is something that the clan would find much harder to do - indeed, the various crises afflictng the city would only convince Goliath all the more that it was his duty to stay in Manhattan and help protect the humans from them. (Of course, one could always point out that, in the Marvel Universe, they've got enough human super-heroes who don't turn into breakable, vulnerable stone during the daytime to take over from the clan).

Magneto might be willing to work with Demona (on the basis that they share a common foe - "ordinary" humans - so it would make sense for them to ally), but I wonder whether Demona would be as willing. After all, from her perspective, mutants would be just another group of humans - possibly even more dangerous to gargoyles than regular humans because of their powers. On the other hand, it would be like Demona to decide on an alliance of convenience with Magneto for now, with an outlook of "I can always get rid of him after I've disposed of the rest of humanity and no longer need his help."

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Friday, February 28, 2003 07:13:45 AM
IP: 65.57.58.168

All this talk of X-Men, I just want to add one opinion. I'd elaborate more, but I don't have the time.

But bascally, Magneto is one of the few mutants in the Marvel Universe who's sane. I started reading X-Men in '91 and have read many back issues through the decades, and I always thought Magneto was on the ball. While Xavier is naieve at best, a complete idealistic idiot at worse (gee, who else do I use these words to describe) ;)

You know, I'd like to see Magneto and Demona meet. They have a lot in common, and a part of me always thought they'd make a cute couple. My favorite Marvel character and my favorite "Gargoyles" character. The two of them could be an undefeatable team.

Greg Bishansky
Friday, February 28, 2003 12:07:35 AM
IP: 216.179.6.201

TODD - You wrote: [If nearly everybody in the Marvel Universe is a "raving anti-mutant racist", then that definitely makes Magneto's stance very explicable (and Xavier's stance almost impossible to fathom short of deciding that Magneto's right about him and he really is hopelessly naive).]

That was pretty much how it was right up through the mid to late 1990's with the X-books. The problem in general was that they really felt as if they wanted to be in their own universe because what happened in them just didn't fit the tone of the non-mutant Marvel books. A world with the Fantastic Four, Captain America, and the Avengers is always going to have a very hard time fitting in and dealing with the way the tone and atmosphere is in the Xbooks.

Most of the time reading the Xbooks, Xavier came off as a blind fool and to avoid that the writers usually tended to write Magneto as a lunatic; even when he was being written as a sane character the arguments with Xavier would go something like:

".... and there are all the logical reasons that I'm right Charles."
"No your not."
"But why?"
"Because"
"Because why?"
"Because I said so and thats the end of it....."

You wrote: [Not to mention the fact that it does take some of the grandeur out of the various Marvel Comics super-heroes' feats if it turns out that it's all been to protect a world populated almost exclusively with incurable bigots;]

The world the SuperHumans deal with is radically different and radically seperated from the world mutants and the Xbooks deal with. SuperHumans aren't hated in the Marvel Universe - the standard reason given is basically that they either got their powers by accident (Fantastic Four) or by something legally sanctioned for a good reason (Captain America) so the public opinion on them is different. (Not that its always positive but considering all the property damage they do at times, that is to be expected.) They are more like celebrities.

You wrote: [at least the super-villains are honest about their villainy]

Not all; there was the first story arc of THUNDERBOLTS. :-)

You wrote: [I do have a slight suspicion that there's another factor in the fear of mutants - what mutants represent.]

It is implied in several stories that the bottom line fear of mutants is that they are essentially the replacements for humanity; uncontrollable, powerful, and inevitable.

You wrote: [That could provoke fears that humanity is being "phased out" with mutants as the replacement.]

In the last year or so the Xbooks have basically gone onto the idea that Humanity is already finished, that some sort of gene kicked in and that Humans are done; they simply stop producing themselves and are just birthing mutants now. (I don't know if the books are sticking with the plot but its possible; I mean they killed and cremated Colossus so they could be serious about moving beyond the Mutant/Human conflict and looking at how Mutants are dealing with actually inheriting the Earth. But then again I'm still skeptical that they really intend to make death for X-Men mean something again - Colossus will probably be back a little after the second X Movie shows up. No X-Man really stays dead except for Doug Ramsey and the original Thunderbird.)

You wrote: [I doubt that Goliath would have relocated to Avalon, though, no matter what the turmoil.]

His instinct wouldn't be to run but if his Clan convinced him the way they did the last time then he'd probably do it, reluctantly. And they would have good reason to press him on it; living in Marvel NYC is to take your life in your hands if your just a regular powerless human being. Between the abnormally high crime (something has to keep Daredevil and Spider-Man busy), the constant alien invasions (the Fantastic Four just have no regards for their neighbors when they have guests over!), various Mutant/Human flareups (i.e. Onslaught and Apocalypse), not to mention all the other craziness that happens, its suprising that anyone normal still lives in the city. Imagine how much more dangerous it would be for Gargoyles who spend the day as stone and who spend the night patrolling for crime?

You wrote: [Of course, it's possible that the *real* reason in the Gargoyles Universe as to why the various governments are clueless about the existence of Demona, Thailog, the Illuminati, etc., is that some of the members of those governments are members of the Illuminati Society]

Even without Illuminati, Demona and Thailog would probably be secrets from mainstream government; they both have money and power to keep them insulated. Demona has magic while Thailog is basically Xanatos at age 21 which would make it even more dangerous to deal with them. They are utterly ruthless and willing to do anything to anyone to get whatever they want. And on top of all of that it is a bit hard for mainstream government to accept the idea that there might be mythical beings living in the human world so successfully. It is a little hard to swallow. And thats all without the Illuminati being involved. With them in, its no suprise any government would be walking around clueless.


THE ANSWER - You wrote: [Interesting enough in one of the issues of Ultimate X-Men, a brain wiped Magneto actually layed out an interesting argument for why Charles's stance of co-existence was superior to Magneto's stance of ruling over the humans with force.]

The problem is that the scene that he brings it up in is meant to be reenforce the idea of Xavier as a hypocrite; the entire arguement that Magneto gave him was word for word what Xavier specifically implanted in his head by force in order to make him see things his way. A bit more subtle way to work but still basically the same thing as what Ultimate Magneto does. Kills the whole idea that Magneto was belching out at the time to make Xavier feel better about himself after having his crazy son killed. The only difference between Magneto and Xavier in Ultimate X-Men is that Xavier is willing to let humanity quietly disappear and Magneto wants something more immediate to happen so that mutants aren't wiped out in the meantime. And with that clear goal in mind the writer still ends up resorting to turning Magneto into a lunatic to play up how good Xavier is.

(I can't stand the Ultimate version of Magneto - he's just a mutant fascist vegetarian with no basic core purpose pushing him; Classic Magneto at least had tragedy and reality influencing him and his behavior. Ultimate Magneto is just a psychopath who's only purpose is to make Xavier look like a better man.)

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, Ny
Thursday, February 27, 2003 11:25:08 PM
IP: 12.88.202.145

MATT - Sorry about that; I didn't mean it to sound snippy. I was simply feeling a little taken aback at the question. (Maybe this is one of those things that we'll need to submit to "Ask Greg" when/if the backlog gets cleared and the submit function is restored).
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, February 27, 2003 06:09:08 PM
IP: 65.56.174.123

Jurgan> <<And don't mess with Sir Integra(l). She owns you.>> Word. Shame the series only has 13 episodes.

Why Xanatos would do all that for those three little disks> Maybe the Illuminati told him it would be a good idea? (Events of Vows and all that?)

Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
Thursday, February 27, 2003 05:02:22 PM
IP: 66.142.70.253

Interesting enough in one of the issues of Ultimate X-Men, a brain wiped Magneto actually layed out an interesting argument for why Charles's stance of co-existence was superior to Magneto's stance of ruling over the humans with force. His basic argument was that despite the fact that the mutants were the next stage in human evolution, the methods of violence employed by Magneto were like that of the old humanity while Xavier's idea of peace and co-existence was or should be more in line was the next stage of human evolution.
The Answer
Thursday, February 27, 2003 01:03:02 PM
IP: 66.19.28.66

Todd>"MATT - I thought that it was utterly obvious from "Awakening", but -

Xanatos wanted the gargoyles to work for him, and specifically to steal the disks needed to create the Steel Clan robots from Cyberbiotics (so that in case they were unwilling to work for him after that, he could use the Steel Clan to do his dirty work). I'd have assumed that the episode made that clear."

geeez, Todd, it was just a question, no need to be rude and so superior about it...
i know what happened in the episode, i know what Xanatos did with the gargs, and i know what reasons he gave for waking them, but i was trying to figure out which of those reasons were true and what reasons he was hiding and we don't yet know.
as others have said, buying an ancient scottish castle, moving it thousands of miles, rebuilding it and placing it on top of the world's tallest building is alot of effort requiring absurd amounts of money, problems with engineering, international affairs, zoning and city codes, probably protests groups on both sides of the Atlantic, and TIME (at least a couple years for planning and constructing the Eyrie Building). now, you tell me, is that all really worth those three disks? Xanatos could've spent FAR less money just developing a similiar or even better technology than Cyberbiotics had, and he could've done that legally and without risking the gargoyles not working with him.
obviously using the gargoyles could not be his only reason. if it was he could've just made a batch of mutates and been done with it. his alliance with Demona and his natural curiosity, plus the novelty of raising a castle above the clouds, might be a motivation, but i still don't think its enough, i think there was more that we don't know, and that is what my question was about.


and todd, don't treat me like i'm a newbie to the show. i know what i'm talking about, even if i don't always type it out perfectly, and for that i apologize.

matt
Thursday, February 27, 2003 10:02:46 AM
IP: 216.178.8.62

AIRWALKER - If nearly everybody in the Marvel Universe is a "raving anti-mutant racist", then that definitely makes Magneto's stance very explicable (and Xavier's stance almost impossible to fathom short of deciding that Magneto's right about him and he really is hopelessly naive). Not to mention the fact that it does take some of the grandeur out of the various Marvel Comics super-heroes' feats if it turns out that it's all been to protect a world populated almost exclusively with incurable bigots; one could certainly make the case that if that's what the general public is like in that world, they probably deserve to be wiped out or mass-enslaved by the super-villains (and are probably just as bad as they are, or even worse; at least the super-villains are honest about their villainy).

I do have a slight suspicion that there's another factor in the fear of mutants - what mutants represent. I haven't read the comics, but I understand that in them, there's been apparently some sort of increasing upsurge in the mutant population (particularly in terms of its becoming a higher percentage of the overall population of Earth). That could provoke fears that humanity is being "phased out" with mutants as the replacement. That could explain why the number of times that the X-Men have saved the world hasn't changed the public's attitude towards mutants; the issue isn't that mutants might try taking over the world, but that they're replacing humanity, that the Marvel version of Earth is headed for a future where, in a few years' time, only mutants will be born, and ordinary humans will stop being born. Where, in fact, the mutants will wind up winning without even having to do anything except continuing to be born.

I doubt that Goliath would have relocated to Avalon, though, no matter what the turmoil. Let's face it; if he was as stubborn as he was about refusing to leave Castle Wyvern in Season One, where his protectorate was nothing more than an old stone castle, think how adamant he'd be about refusing to leave Manhattan, where his protectorate is an entire community filled with millions of humans. The only way that I can imagine Goliath ever leaving New York for Avalon would be if its human population (except maybe the Quarrymen and other extremist gargoyle-haters) were to move out of the city first.

Of course, it's possible that the *real* reason in the Gargoyles Universe as to why the various governments are clueless about the existence of Demona, Thailog, the Illuminati, etc., is that some of the members of those governments are members of the Illuminati Society, and use their being in such key positions to ensure cover-ups that will keep not only the general public, but even their colleagues in government who aren't members of the Illuminati in the dark.

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, February 27, 2003 07:38:26 AM
IP: 65.57.59.205

(Enters slowly, wearing a red, zip-up cardigan... places a set of puppets (a king, an owl, and a tiger) on a old, red trolly-car near the doorway, before lighting a lone candle on a nearby table...)

On this day, Fred Rogers, ordained Presbytarian minister and creator of "Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood", died of cancer. He was 74.

The neighborhood will never be the same...

[long moment of silence]




Maintain and Check Six.

Stephen R. Sobotka Jr.
Tampa, FL, USA
Thursday, February 27, 2003 05:43:33 AM
IP: 65.35.132.55

Some thoughts on the mutants / gargs issue:

I would think that the general populace would be more freaked and afraid of the idea of X-Men style mutants than they would of gargoyles. Simply because of the sneaky nature of that mutant gene, which can crop up in anyone, and not all mutants are discernable to the eye.

Your friends, your kids, even YOU could turn out to be a mutant (whereas, if your kid turned out to be a gargoyle, somebody's got some serious explaining to do <g>).

The mutant aspect sort of plays into the basic virus fear, too. No way of knowing, no way of detecting, no way of avoiding it. Either you gots it, or you don't, and there's not a bloody-damn thing you can do. See the wonderful Wild Cards books for a depiction of this.

Christine - [christine@sabledrake.com]
Wednesday, February 26, 2003 11:14:14 PM
IP: 65.239.62.188

TODD> I had forgoten that. You're right. :)

I've heard from a family friend who works for Disney Canada, who knows about movies comming out months before they actually do, that Disney is slated to realease (As she put it) "A HECK of a lot of good movies and shows on DVD this year." Since she has informed me of many NEW DVD's months before hand, I know she is telling the truth. I don't know NAMES yet; She can't say yet. (She DIDN'T remember Gargoyles popping up, but she thought it rang a bell; that's all she could say.)

I am very excited to say the least.

Do we know that it (Gargs) is FOR SURE comming out on dvd?

Later~

Battle Beast
CanadaWednesday, February 26, 2003 10:27:10 PM
IP: 205.206.79.107

TODD - You wrote: [if this convergence were to take place, who'd the "mainstream public" be more afraid of, mutants or gargoyles?]

Actually I think that they would lump the two groups together. There are dozens of other groups besides Mutants and Humans in the Marvel Universe, ranging from mystical demons to Atlanteans to Inhumans; the man in the street doesn't really bothers to differentiate between them much. I doubt that the mobs of howling racist lunatics that most Humans in the X-books are portrayed as will bother to take note that there is a difference. (Honestly when I was reading the X-books, every single non-mutant except the token human the X-Men kept around in their European Headquaters was foaming at the mouth mad at the mention of Mutants with mobs able to form in the eye.)

You wrote: [I think that there'd be good arguments for either way, myself.]

I think that the fear factor if the folks in that universe would bother to differentiate between Mutants and Gargoyles would land more on the side of Mutants rather than Gargoyles. Mutants would be far more prominent in the news, they have a larger population, and they tend to be in direct contact with the general population. Gargoyles pop up only at night (and late night at that) and wouldn't really be in the news that much in a Marvel Universe because with all the public weirdness that goes on there, they probably wouldn't stand out that much. Not to mention the smaller population and the fact that in a Marvel Universe, most Clans would have to be smart enough to live in the middle of nowhere or risk constant wipeout. (Given how often Mutants are killed, Heroes fight each other, and Galactus visits town its a strong possibility that Goliath would have picked up and gone to Avalon as soon as possible.)

You wrote: [one wonders whether, the first time that mutants start showing up in the Gargoyles Universe, Goliath and his clan initially wonder if some of the Oberati took a leave of absence from the Gathering.]

Odds are that if Mutants started showing up in the Gargoyles Universe, between Xanatos, Thailog, Demona, and the Illuminati, not to mention all the realistic governments that are out of the loop when it comes to those four, we probably wouldn't hear that much about Mutants. Most would probably be shunted to secret operations groups or eliminated. I don't think Magneto would have as easy a time as he does in the Marvel Universe if he were wandering around the Gargoyles Universe. There wouldn't be any Charles Xavier or Captain America to wimp out at the last minute and spare him for some lame excuse; he'd be dealing with the likes of Demona, Thailog, and Xanatos - which wouldn't end well for him. And thats without mentioning how any of them might want to involve Sevarius in vivisecting or doing an autopsy.

You wrote: [I have a strong suspicion that, as soon as Xanatos first learned of the X-Men, his immediate response would be "Pity that I didn't come up with that name first."]

I think he might copyright it at that point and then use it; its not like Xavier can openly come out and claim the brandname. (It would be like in X-Force before it was rebooted into a completely new book; the new characters came in and stole the name, using it to market themselves. And when the original X-Force showed up to protest, there wasn't anything that they could do about it.)

You wrote: [what happens when Demona and Mystique meet?]

They play each other off one another until Demona gets tired of it and kills her; Shapeshifters are hard to deal with but if its a fight between an Immortal Warrior and a 20-40 year old Shapeshifter who constantly loses to the likes of the X-Men then its not difficult to see who to put the money on.

You wrote: [I thought that it was utterly obvious from "Awakening", but -]

The problem in general lies in the fact that Xanatos went through a lot of trouble to get the Clan awake and then he proceeds to move to eliminate them after they are successful in their mission and without making any attempt whatsoever to turn them/keep them motivated to work for him. As far as he knew up to the poin the Steel Clan was unleashed, they were trusted allies. It seems like overkill and clouds the issue a bit.


THE QUESTION - You wrote: [The mutants and x-men are all the result of alien experimentation on Earth put there for unknown reasons]

But the Celestials only manipulated what they found; they didn't introduce anyone onto the planet. So while the seeds of the X-Factor have to do with Alien Manipulation, the ingrediants and results (i.e. Humans and Mutants/SuperHumans - yes they are two distinct groups in the Marvel Universe) are still very much native to Earth.


MATT - You wrote: [why exactly DID Xanatos awaken the Clan? was it to use them (as he did), was it out of curiousity (as he originally claimed) or was it something Demona made him do?]

Like everyone else said, he wanted them to steal the discs and then if possible to continue working for him; I think personally though that while they as well as the possibilities they presented interested him, that there were easier ways to get the discs and that he went with the "Spend a fortune moving a Castle to NYC to wake up a Gargoyle Clan" mainly at Demona's suggestion/insistence.

Airwalker - [airwalker999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Wednesday, February 26, 2003 10:10:06 PM
IP: 12.88.163.182

I thought that it did. After all, Xanatos specifically called the Steel Clan "their replacements" in Part Five.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, February 26, 2003 06:22:07 PM
IP: 65.57.63.62

TODD> The Episode DID make it obvious that Xanatos wanted the Gargoyles to work for him. It DID NOT make clear the fact that his backup plan was the Steel Clan.

Later~

Pyro X / Battle Beast
CanadaWednesday, February 26, 2003 10:04:10 AM
IP: 199.185.68.2

Well, I voted for "Gargoyles" at the site that Mooncat mentioned, although I felt a little guilty about doing so; I don't have Toon Disney, so I wouldn't be able to watch whatever I voted for. It's almost like entering an election and voting when you're not a citizen. But at least it'll help "Gargoyles" a little....

Of course, Mystique can shape-shift, which allows her to disguise herself quite effectively (giving her the advantage over Beast, Toad, and Sabretooth). Of course, that brings me to another aspect of a potential convergence between "Gargoyles" and "X-Men" - what happens when Demona and Mystique meet? The results to that one should be interesting....

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, February 26, 2003 07:24:29 AM
IP: 65.56.173.192

Hey,

I was on the Toon Disney site, and Gargoyles is one of the choices you can vote to be shown on the Thursday @TOON timeslot -- Since Gargoyles is only shown regularly at 11:30pm eastern on weekdays, having an earlier showing where a new generation of kids can get into the show might be nice, and good for the fandom as a whole.

Right now Gargoyles is at 17%, tied with Hercules, Alladin leading at 40%

If anyone is interested in getting more exposure for Gargoyles, it would take a bare second to hit the link and vote Gargoyles.

http://psc.disney.go.com/abcnetworks/toondisney/toon/wanna_watch/index.html

MC

Mooncat
Tuesday, February 25, 2003 08:29:23 PM
IP: 68.102.23.36

I don't know, I'd rather like having an unbreakable skeleton, metal claws and heightened regenerative powers, or better yet being able to generate magnetic fields from my body, although it would make it tough whenever I lose my temper every electronic in the house gets fried, but then again you're looking at a guy whose ideal wardrobe would consist of an alien symbiote costume
Shogun raptor
Tuesday, February 25, 2003 08:28:38 PM
IP: 209.86.185.25

Todd wrote: "You can recognize a gargoyle straight off when you see one. But with mutants - potentially, anybody could be one. The person sitting next to you on the bus, the person in the desk next to yours at school or the cubicle next to yours at work, the person in the house next door."

That's true. Unless you happen to look like Mystique, or Toad, or Beast, or Sabertooth... or red beams shoot from your eyes when your sunglasses get knocked off... or you're walking down the street in the middle of summer in full winter gear because unless you cover every inch of skin you'll suck the life from anyone you brush up against.

And I dunno... it's a tough call, but I think I'd rather take my chances with talons and fangs against a Quarryman any day of the week over trying to use a deck of exploding playing cards to fight off a 100-foot tall Sentinel robot. :P

Then again... maybe it'd be better to be a Ninja Turtle. Even if it's not easy being green. ;)

Patrick Toman
Tuesday, February 25, 2003 07:49:41 PM
IP: 65.43.150.124

MATT - I thought that it was utterly obvious from "Awakening", but -

Xanatos wanted the gargoyles to work for him, and specifically to steal the disks needed to create the Steel Clan robots from Cyberbiotics (so that in case they were unwilling to work for him after that, he could use the Steel Clan to do his dirty work). I'd have assumed that the episode made that clear.

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, February 25, 2003 06:29:13 PM
IP: 65.57.57.132

Patrick Toman> Obviously Wakko!!

I knew The Warner was a useless name. 'Chicken Licken' would have been more appropriate
Chicken Licken/ The warner
Tuesday, February 25, 2003 03:41:29 PM
IP: 212.159.30.247

gotta question that occurred to me while reading todd's last post, anyone/everyone is free to answer:

this is an odd question coming from someone who is a pretty big fan, but i wonder if anyone has a definite answer or could elaborate on what i already know. why exactly DID Xanatos awaken the Clan? was it to use them (as he did), was it out of curiousity (as he originally claimed) or was it something Demona made him do???? i dunno, i just don't recall ever hearing a definite answer on this.
thanks.

matt
Tuesday, February 25, 2003 10:03:07 AM
IP: 207.230.48.123

I wouldn't consider the Pack at the time of their first encounter with the gargoyles "misunderstood", or at least, not in the same way that the gargoyles were. After all, they were publicly viewed as heroes. (You could use the word "misunderstood" about them in a different sense, because the public and the gargoyles believed them to be heroes, when they were really ruthless - and, in some cases, psychopathic - thrill-seeking mercenaries).

But, yes, it would make sense for the gargoyles to be a bit cautious, after their original encounters with Xanatos and the Pack (both of whom seemed friendly, but were really out to use them from the start).

I think that the fact that mutants look like "everyday humans" (with a few exceptions) could actually, in a way, make them more feared. You can recognize a gargoyle straight off when you see one. But with mutants - potentially, anybody could be one. The person sitting next to you on the bus, the person in the desk next to yours at school or the cubicle next to yours at work, the person in the house next door. And you'd never know until they used their powers. A recipe for paranoia, if I ever saw one. (And certainly anybody wanting to encourage fear of mutants would be playing on that).

(One other note about such a potential "convergence" - I have a strong suspicion that, as soon as Xanatos first learned of the X-Men, his immediate response would be "Pity that I didn't come up with that name first.")

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, February 25, 2003 07:24:19 AM
IP: 67.75.178.180

***GATHERING 2003 Update***

This update features a new guest, details on the Banquet, and Dealer's room information.

But first...the clock is winding down for the special early registration fee of $45; come March first, the cost will go up to $50. So act quickly, before your time is up.
Register online at http://gathering.gargoyles-fans.org/register.html

Our "name the convention" contest will come to a close on March first as well, barely a week away, so get your entries in now.
And don't forget the Gathering 2003 contests! Entries are still being accepted for our two calendars, with the Gathering calendar featuring "Gargoyles in New York", as well as a chance to design the official Gathering T-shirt! The deadlines for the contests are April 05 for the T-shirt contests, and April 12 for calendar art. (And remember, contest winners will be awarded a free item of the contest they won.) Further details for entry rules may be found at http://gathering.gargoyles-fans.org/contests.html


Now, for the new:

In addition to special guests Greg Weisman and Thom Adcox, we are pleased to announce that Greg Guler, who was lead character designer for "Gargoyles", will be returning to join us for another year!

*

Banquet Details:
Our Banquet, which will be held in the Skytop Ballroom, will be a buffet-style, allowing attendees to choose from the three main courses of sauteed breast of chicken w/ natural juice, slices top sirloin of beef w/ bordelasise sauce , and stuffed filet of sole (meuniere).
It also includes mixed greens with assorted dressing, traditional caesar salad, chef's choice of two composed salads, chef's selection of seasonal accompaniments, oven-baked fresh rolls, chef's selection of dessert, and beverages including coffee, decaf coffee, and tea. (The various "chef's selections" will be decided by the hotel closer to the convention date. We do not presently have details on them.)

The price of Banquet is $50, and includes a free "Gargoyles" T-shirt, while supplies last. Banquet will also have a special Gargoyles Question and Answer section, like last year's convention in Virginia.

*

Interested in selling merchandise at the con? Information on getting a table or two in the Dealer's room is posted on the convention site at
http://gathering.gargoyles-fans.org/dealers.html

Each table area includes a 6' x 2' table and 2 chairs. In addition each dealer will receive two dealer convention badges. Pricing is as follows:

Dealer Registration Dates Number of Table(s)
1 2 3
Before March 1, 2003 $75.00 $100.00 $125.00
March 1 - April 30, 2003 $105.00 $130.00 $155.00
After April 30, 2003 $130.00 $150.00 $200.00


We need fan support to make this con truly rock; we are looking for people to lead panel discussions, and/or to suggest ones of their own. If you think you've got what it takes, contact us and let us know!

Want to be added to our mailing list? Email gathering2003-updates-subscribe@yahoogroups.com and we will send regular updates to you.
Have questions, comments, or concerns? Feel free to email us at
gathering@gargoyles-fans.org

-Lynati, Gathering 2003 staff
http://gathering.gargoyles-fans.org

Updates
Tuesday, February 25, 2003 02:04:49 AM
IP: 64.219.130.228

castle0909> Why? The gargoyles despite being inhuman and everything are still native to the Earth. The mutants and x-men are all the result of alien experimentation on Earth put there for unknown reasons.

The Question
Tuesday, February 25, 2003 01:58:54 AM
IP: 216.170.210.200

........................If the X-Men and Gargoyles came together, humanity would probably be more afraid of the gargoyles just because they look more different than humans.

If the X-Men approached Goliath and clan, they'd be a little cautious. Sure, they may both be misunderstood, but that's what they thought about the Pack, and they ended up turning against the Gargoyles.

Vin

castle0909
Monday, February 24, 2003 10:21:02 PM
IP: 152.163.188.164

Pyro,

Thanks for updating my bio... but there are a few mistakes or misdirections...

For starters, I guess I grew up in Woodland Hills (from 4th to 12th grade) but I was born in Los Angeles.

My sister and brother are both younger than I am. My sister may be older than my brother, but she's the middle child, not me.

John Elway and I were at Stanford University at the same time (for about three years), but a lot of people were at Stanford, and I didn't know John personally. And saying we went to school together kinda implies we were buddies. I was really more of a fan.

I did like history in high school, but I have always been an English and Creative Writing major. So it's also misleading to suggest history is my strong suit. I make up a lot more than I research.

After college, I moved to New York, where, dude, hey, I kinda feel like I had some minor success working at DC Comics in New York. Then I moved back to L.A. to go to graduate school, while I continued to freelance for DC on Captain Atom. But that started before I moved back, not after.

I started at Disney in 1989, not 1991.

Max Steel and Roughnecks came before Team Atlantis. And again, I think it's misleading to say that all three didn't pan out the way I'd have liked. I was VERY happy on Roughnecks. Max was a nightmare -- but frankly -- I'd prefer you didn't advertise that. (Bad enough that I'm admitting it here.)
Greg Weisman
Monday, February 24, 2003 09:32:01 PM
IP: 66.81.252.44

Sorry...

NOW click my name!

later~

Pyro X / Battle Beast
CanadaMonday, February 24, 2003 09:12:04 PM
IP: 205.206.79.107

Hey Peeps!

Check out the biography of Greg W. at www.imdb.com

Or Click my name.


Type in "Greg Weisman"

I added most of the personal info myself, as no one else had.

Later~

Pyro X / Battle Beast
CanadaMonday, February 24, 2003 09:10:47 PM
IP: 205.206.79.107

*Leaves a huge butterscotch almond cake for Arno*
Weasel
Columbus, Denial
Monday, February 24, 2003 04:48:36 PM
IP: 198.30.71.83

Tenth!!!

Later~

Battle Beast / Pyro X
Monday, February 24, 2003 10:00:41 AM
IP: 199.185.68.2

Nine

Todd]-Interesting theorys about mutants and gargoyles. Although blending in might not be so bad since we still live in a world where sadly people still judge on what they see.

Spacebabie - [LadyAndromeda@smstars.zzn.com]
Monday, February 24, 2003 09:59:57 AM
IP: 63.209.124.116

8th.

I saw the "X-Men" movie on FOX last night, and found myself wondering a little about what would happen if the X-Men and Gargoyles Universes were to converge, given their similar elements of "humans fear what they do not understand". One thing in particular I wondered was: if this convergence were to take place, who'd the "mainstream public" be more afraid of, mutants or gargoyles?

I think that there'd be good arguments for either way, myself. On the one hand, the utterly unknown and thoroughly non-human nature of gargoyles is such that it could actually make even mutants appear to be less of a threat. (Greg Weisman said once that he suspected that the revelation of gargoyles might actually help race relations among humans; the utter difference between humans and gargoyles would make such differences within humanity as skin color seem pretty minor by comparison). On the other hand, the public might be more afraid of mutants because they can "blend in" (most of them look "normal" unless they're using their powers), which gargoyles obviously can't do (and as long as they think of gargoyles as mere animals, the mutants might also seem more threatening because they're the ones who can think, plan, scheme; those who view gargoyles as animals would see them as acting out of simple instinct like wolves or mountain lions) - except for maybe those aware of the true nature of Dominique Destine.

Of course, I've got a few individual creativity demons relating to such a convergence, as well: Magneto approaching Goliath and his clan, for example, to suggest that they become allies against the common foe, and being bewildered when Goliath refuses to work with him (probably commenting that it seems that Charles's hopeless naivete is more widespread than he'd thought), or Nightcrawler being mistaken for a gargoyle by the Quarrymen (what would really be funny would be the Quarrymen and Friends of Humanity fighting over who gets to bag Nightcrawler - "He's a gargoyle, so he's ours!" "He's a mutant, so he's ours!" - until they discover that Nightcrawler took advantage of the situation to teleport away while they were still confronting each other).

Of course, for that matter, one wonders whether, the first time that mutants start showing up in the Gargoyles Universe, Goliath and his clan initially wonder if some of the Oberati took a leave of absence from the Gathering....

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, February 24, 2003 07:29:31 AM
IP: 67.75.178.38

7th in the name of traditionally lucky single digit prime numbers! ;)
Patrick Toman
Monday, February 24, 2003 06:54:54 AM
IP: 65.43.150.124

6th in the name of unfinished homework... gotta go...
matt
Monday, February 24, 2003 06:30:44 AM
IP: 207.230.48.25

5th in the name of cute fluffy werewolf pups everywhere!
silverbolt
Monday, February 24, 2003 04:04:46 AM
IP: 212.50.183.100

4th in the name of the Fay!

MC

Mooncat
Monday, February 24, 2003 01:54:07 AM
IP: 68.102.23.36

Me Be Three...he he ^_^
Wingless
Monday, February 24, 2003 12:52:58 AM
IP: 24.43.156.242

Dos
DPH
AR, USA
Monday, February 24, 2003 12:37:27 AM
IP: 204.94.193.12

FIRST!
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Monday, February 24, 2003 12:16:31 AM
IP: 66.169.209.155