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Gargoyles

The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending January 12, 2004

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DEZI> Thanks for the Notice. I went and check the VOTE, and I then I went and deleted your whole vote. ( :P to me!)

But I redid your vote and got all of your information so you don't have to re-vote.

Still, thanks for voting!!!

I have 51 votes so far; If you know you haven't voted, then please PLEASE PLEASE do. I still need 49 more votes from fans and I know some of you haven't voted. If you know someone who hasn't, bug em till they do. I will stop at 100 or more and post the results then; I can tell you the votes are surprising.

www.geocities.com/oscarmovs/gargbest.html

Thanks in advance!!!

That is all I will say.

Battle Beast
CanadaSunday, January 11, 2004 01:43:54 PM
IP: 142.59.145.149

Disney recents: Well, since I'm not the biggest movie buff, I can't say much for theatrical Disney, but admittedly, a few of their more recent TV animation projects have shown some promise. I mean, writing is quite good on most of them, but for animation style, I hated their Nickelodeon'ization and more recently cartoon netwerk'ization of Disney. I mean, Teamo Supreamo? good lord! what were they thinking?

Although I liked the series alot, the one thing that has me baffled right now is a "Teachers Pet" movie? A Theatrical release for a series that has been off the air for 2 years(at least on ABC and in Canada as a whole it has been). They can somehow justify that but can't be bothered with Gargoyles-It leaves me scratching my head for sure. With all the recycling that Disney does, We can only hope they realize what an amazing product they have in Gargs. My only worry is that they do it without Greg and without the original cast.

As for the DVD-if it turns out to just be the edited down movie ala "the Heroes awaken", I'm going to be disappointed. I'll buy it for sure, but I won't be too happy. They've made us wait this long - and for a 10th anniversary release, I'm expecting something special. Let's face it, Gargs deserves that kind of treatment....heh, but then again-I think we're all pretty biased in that respect. ^_^

My 2 cents Cdn. - which is strangely growing in value lately

Be well & Glide Safely (been a while since I've used that tag line)

Wingless
Sunday, January 11, 2004 11:40:21 AM
IP: 24.157.218.68

Leva: I think the last 'Freaky Friday' was the 3rd. And worst.

Disney's last couple of good ones (Pirates, Lilo&Stitch, Kim Possible) have been good because they haven't been as formulaic as much of Disney's recents, they haven't been double overmarketed, and they're written for a slightly more mature audience. Which makes adults more likely take their kids to see it.

CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Sunday, January 11, 2004 01:18:00 AM
IP: 132.170.38.112

Hey Battle Beast:
I'm stupid and screwed up on your survey. The recent most (top of the list, by my viewing of it) entry its the accurate one. I was trying to backspace on one of my entries and sent it instead. Sorry.

Dezi
Sunday, January 11, 2004 12:17:02 AM
IP: 68.58.158.101

Not that I support most of what Disney's been up to lately, but they *have* had at least one live action hit recently: Pirates of the Carribean (maybe the subject wasn't that original, but the movie was fantastic--though I doubt Disney had anything to do with that). And the 'Kim Possible' and 'Lilo & Stitch' cartoons have apparently been very popular. 'L&S' the movie was also successful, though again, that's because the Florida Studio had a lot of independence. The "Spirit" movie was not Disney, and for that reason alone I wish it had done better than it did.

I think Gargoyles's future will depend a lot on how well the DVD sells. Or perhaps if it gets moved to the Jetix block on ABC Family and has really good ratings there, they might consider adding new episodes. Disney *does* do a lot of recycling, but only on properties they think will be a hit. Remember how quickly they dumped the "Team Atlantis" series when the movie didn't do well? So we'll just have to wait and see.

Vashkoda
Saturday, January 10, 2004 11:56:14 PM
IP: 129.98.127.164

William> Cool website. :)

Another factor that makes me go, "Hmmmmm ..." with Gargs is that Disney is apparently getting a LOT of criticism for the content they've been producing.

They haven't had a blockbuster live-action movie hit in MANY years -- can't even remember the last one -- and they've had a lot of flops. HOW many versions of Freaky Friday have they made? How many remakes of past hits have they done besides that? Have they done ANYTHING original in the last ten years?

They haven't had an animated series that was successful SINCE Gargoyles that I can think of. Their "traditional" feature-length animated movies haven't exactly been blockbusters either, not in the "Lion King" sense. Spirit might as well have been released direct-to-video!

The only thing they've really been excelling at have been CGI movies and THOSE they're doing with Pixar. They've been doing okay, but this is Disney, they're supposed to be the best, they're supposed to be blowing everyone else out of the water.

And they're not.

And the stockholders are getting restless.

Meanwhile, look at what IS doing really really well.

Movies? Look at Lord of the Rings. Look at Harry Potter. Look at Spiderman. Look at X-men. Dark, moody fantasy with magical/SF creatures.

Animation? Various anime series, some darker than others. Some better than others. Mostly with themes of "good vs. evil" ... and quests against dark magic. :)

Live action series? Look at what Angel's doing this year. Ratings are up 40% on a five year old show that was nearly cancelled last year.

Given the proper treatment, Gargoyles could BE Disney's next blockbuster -- either as a new animated series, a live action movie as has been planned in the past (planned to the point of having Dean Devlin write a script for it right after Independence Day!) or a *live action series*. (Couldn't you see a Disney/ABC live action gargoyles series being pitted against Angel and Enterprise and Charmed? That's pure speculation, but I don't think it's that farfetched. The CGI technology is there to do it.)

Gargs has got a built in fandom already. Believe me, whisper "new gargoyles" and this fandom would EXPLODE and do all sorts of fan-based word-of-mouth marketing for Disney if Disney even so much as whispered there might be a new series. Plus there's an awful lot of 20-somethings now with expendable income who were teens in 1994/1995 who may not be active fans -- but who have fond memories of Gargs.

*shrug* I think the time's ripe for Disney to revive Gargs. I think we'll see it. Probably not in the next few years because it takes that long to create a new show. But soon. Maybe in the next decade or so. :) (Unless Greg's danged good at keeping secrets, but I think a secret of that magnitude he'd be snerking at us about. *grins at Greg if he's lurking*)

The thing with Disney is that they love to recycle material. They've done sequels to or reused everything from Fantasia to Witch Mountain. Why not Gargs?

Leva


Leva
Saturday, January 10, 2004 09:39:35 PM
IP: 162.42.84.246

Alex: No, I got your point, I was just trying to use your same examples.

Will + JJ Greg: You guys have lost me. All I know about kids programming is what my brother & sister watch on Nick.

CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Saturday, January 10, 2004 03:03:16 PM
IP: 132.170.38.112

CKayote>> I think I've poorly communicated again - I wasn't assigning attributes that we associate with characters but attempting to point out what the characters found to try and heal the sense of loss they all felt after the massacre of their clan and immediate events thereafter - and Brooklyn is the only one who really hasn't found anything to move beyond the tragedy. I agree with you that Brooklyn is more likely to define himself rather than let some externality define him, but so far the search for that has not gone well and that has led to a certain level of insecurity - "Why have all the others found something and not me? Am I doing something wrong?" I think that is what led to his aggressiveness towards courting Angela; he had the desire to do something right, to try and define himself once again through a relationship, and once again he let his motivation cloud his otherwise fine sense of judgement and he lost another opportunity. So while I've completely forgotten where I'm trying to go with this, I hope it clears up what I was saying earlier - I wasn't assigning defining attributes (age, position, etc.) but what the characters have found in the modern world to move past everything they lost in their old world. Make sense?... hopefully...?
Alex Garg
VA, USA
Saturday, January 10, 2004 12:56:34 AM
IP: 141.156.135.119

Nickerous - or I should probably say those disks you sent me are running fine. :-)
DPH
AR, USA
Friday, January 9, 2004 11:39:51 PM
IP: 204.94.193.34

So, basically all of this is branding gone bonkers?
(Not Bonkers. of course ;-) )
Oh, and I am told that the *drawn* picture I talked about earlier is for the *live action* TMNT: the Next Mutation show.

Apparently this whole children's entertainment thing is nuttier than Chip 'n' Dale's home when they gear up for a New Year's bash... :-/

My head's spinning!

JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Friday, January 9, 2004 11:37:29 PM
IP: 65.244.173.163

Nickerous - I put a dvd-rom on my pc and those files are running fine. :-)
DPH
AR, USA
Friday, January 9, 2004 11:35:40 PM
IP: 204.94.193.34

A couple years ago Fox and Saban sold off all of their Fox Kids Network related properties. These included the programming from the Fox Kids block that aired in the U.S. and wasn't ownded by others (Power Rangers, Spider-Man: TAS), Fox Family Channel and Fox Kids Europe. All of this was bought by Disney.

Fox was left with a 4 hour block on Saturday mornings and nothing to program it with, but that was part of the intention. What they did now was to sell the rights to program that 4 hours. 4Kids bought the rights and renamed that block "Fox Box." 4Kids owns all the programming in the Fox Box.

"Fox Family Channel" was renamed "ABC Family" by Disney and now they are finally renaming Fox Kids Europe.

Programming is another matter. What a company has the rights to in one country generally has nothing to do with the rights in another country, unless they own the entire series. Thus, Fox Kids Europe could pick up shows that air on Disney, Nick, Cartoon Network or older stuff like the original TMNT. However, they only have the rights to air those shows in Europe, or even the particular European country. The same goes for other networks. One of the biggest shows for Cartoon Network in Britain has been "The Cramp Twins," but in the United States that show airs on Fox Box. Basically, whether or not Fox Kids Europe airs something has no bearing on whether it could appear on ABC Family, Disney or Toon DIsney. And that brings us up to today.
William C. Maune - [wcm1db@mizzou.edu]
Columbia, MO, United States
Friday, January 9, 2004 10:26:28 PM
IP: 12.216.228.40

Umm, when I said "Fox TV Europe" I obviously meant "Fox Kids Europe."
:blushes:

JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Friday, January 9, 2004 10:22:38 PM
IP: 65.244.173.163

CKayote>> Glad to "see" you again. Anyway, it's neat to see other people that saw Brooklyn's odd asymmetrical relationship with humans.

FoxTv Kids Europe/ Jetix and the Mouse>>
So, Disney owns a company that uses trademarks of Fox, and airs the show that blew Gargoyles out of the water, Power Rangers.

This "Fox TV Europe," despite the name, has little apparent connection to the FoxBOX, the package of children's entertainment shown on most American Fox stations on weekends. For instance, the new Ninja Turtles cartoon is one of the marquee shows of the FoxBOX.

YET, if you poke around http://www.foxkidseurope.com enough, you will find a picture of a Ninja Turtle; one, might I add, that does not match the current Ninja Turtles cartoon.
(I'll have to ask how it compares to the comics. I do not believe that the comic Ninja Turtles ever wore this figure's type of mask as adolescents, however...)
The picture: http://www.foxkidseurope.com/images/swop/12.gif
There's little chance of TMNT being on American Jetix, as it already has plans to be on the Cartoon Network, but still, this has caught my attention.

And my confusion! Any help on sorting all of this out?

I'm not sure whether to laugh, cheer, or cry at all of this. :-/

JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Friday, January 9, 2004 10:10:11 PM
IP: 65.244.173.163

There was some interesting news recently out of Fox Kids Europe:

http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=99183

Basically, not only will the Disney owned Fox Kids Europe be changing its name to "Jetix," but ABC Family's action block will be changing to that name AND Toon Disney will be getting a prime-time Jetix block.

Toon Disney is the interesting news and will be something to keep an eye on. The first thing to watch will be what they program it with. The only action cartoon they have that is long enough would be Gargoyles. Other than that they do have a lot of action/comedy/adventure toons. In fact they have a solid library of these since they pretty much owned that genre in the 90s from DuckTales to pre-Gargoyles. Either they will throw those shows on the action block or Toon Disney could start seeing original programming. This is especially interesting for a Gargoyles fan since if you were going to start up an action franchise on a network one of the best things to do to jump start it would be to resurrect the network's biggest action series.

There is another option as well. So far, even with the acquisition of a lot of shows, ABC Family toon programming and Toon Disney programming have not mixed. Also, I don't think Disney Channel Toon Programming has gone to Toon Disney until Disney Channel was pretty much done with the series. Now that the episode count is getting higher they could also show Kim Possible reruns on Toon Disney's Jetix block. It is also more in the action/comedy/adventure genre, but probably more action oriented than other shows in the Toon Disney library. Still, this is only one show. ABC Family is where the really interesting developments in the show movement department could take place. Since Toon Disney shows mostly older material anyway and ABC Family is finding less and less room for the Fox Kids acquisitions like Spider-man: TAS and X-Men: TAS, those and others could be moved to Toon Disney. Instant action block. Could we see?:

Toon Disney Jetix - Evenings on Toon Disney (7P-9P perhaps? That would allow them to schedule it between Toonami and CN's pre-Adult Swim action shows, the main action-animation competition)

7:00 PM - Kim Possible
7:30 PM - Spider-Man: TAS (90s)
8:00 PM - X-Men: TAS (90s)
8:30 PM - Gargoyles

While I don't think they would start out with original programming right now, this would be a prime spot for growth. Plus, it would probably be one of the best potential homes for a new Gargoyles series considering the other slots Disney has at the moment.
William C. Maune - [wcm1db@mizzou.edu]
Columbia, Missouri, USA
Friday, January 9, 2004 09:09:55 PM
IP: 12.216.228.40

I worded that badly. Brooklyn is a define yourself, rather than a be defined character.
CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Friday, January 9, 2004 08:40:52 PM
IP: 132.170.38.112

Goliath is just stubborn to a fault. In that way he's very much like Demona..... you can see why they clicked back in the dark recesses of history.

Alex: The rest of clan is kind of defined by some 'outside influence'; Goliath's leadership position, Hudson's age, Boradway's food, Lex's tech, etc. I think Brooklyn isn't not finding anything to define himself, he's trying to define himself without relying on an outside influence.

Humans & Demona: Brooklyn likes humans, he just doesn't understand why we don't like him back.

CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Friday, January 9, 2004 08:38:53 PM
IP: 132.170.38.112

****Blaise's head pokes out from...mid-air?!**** I thought I heard something.

ALEX GARG> [blinks] Eh? Oh, a bit of miscommunication, here. Actually, I was referring to the argument that *Goliath* relied too much on Hudson (and I never saw Hudson's advising as a bad thing, either--he is pretty dang reliable). Sorry about that little mix-up.

Gotta get back to shipping my discs to New Line for replacements, so I'll check back later. Until then, farewell. ****Blaise pulls his head back into...well, the no-place it came from.****

Blaise
Friday, January 9, 2004 05:40:39 PM
IP: 209.179.250.147

I always thought Broadway was included in the punishment because that was the refugees' food he was eating...

(back to lurking :D)

warrioress
Friday, January 9, 2004 04:53:11 PM
IP: 65.26.57.52

Goliath a bully? He's commanding, sure, but not a bully. His blanket punishment of the Trio was the most effective way of defusing a hostile situation - he couldn't very well turn to the refugees and command them to stop harassing his clan. As for punishing Broadway, I think that by 994 Goliath had enough experience with the Trio in his tenure as leader to safely assume that when two are involved in trouble, the third's not far behind; although he was wrong in this case, I think he was just drawing more on past experiences than being unfair. I think if Broadway had just stayed in the corner with the food Goliath might have just shot him a "Why aren't you looking after your brothers?" look and let him go - but he joined Brooklyn and Lexington just in time for Goliath's ruling, so he got screwed. Again, I don't see this as evidence of Goliath as a potential bully.

Blaise> I didn't mean to be cynical about raising the possibility that Brooklyn relied on Hudson for advise - in fact, I'd consider it a plus for Brooklyn to recognize that he wasn't fully prepared for Goliath to disappear and to seek the same wisdom that benefited Goliath, a change from "Reawakening" when he sounded weary from Hudson's "old sayings" and wisdom.

Alex Garg
VA, USA
Friday, January 9, 2004 04:43:47 PM
IP: 141.156.135.119

Blaise: Well, if you have a microphone, and something as simple as a sound recorder program... Ohh, it's on Toon Disney? Ohh, then it's the Spanish dub I have on tape! Isn't it cool? I just love that scene of Keith David grunting instead of the translator. Eee hee hee hee! Guess they missed a spot! Are there any other scenes that caught your attention?

Darkness: I agree with you that Goliath did sound like he was bullying Brooklyn during that scene in Runaways. He wasn't just scolding him, he was flat-out insulting him! But that episode isn't canon so I can't understand why some people use that episode as an example that Goliath's a bully.

Brooklyn X: Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but thanks for letting me know the reason why some Brooklyn fans think Goliath's a bully. The way I see it, Goliath wasn't bullying them. He was punishing them for doing something wrong, like a leader or even a father would. It's what teaches them not to do it again. They did scare the humans, and even though they were only playing, the humans wouldn't see it that way. See what I mean? They could've gone to Prince Malcolm and tell him that the gargoyles were threatening them or something and really cause trouble, which they really didn't need. Broadway just got in the way and if he didn't speak up for himself, then that's his own fault. But you see, if Goliath hadn't punished them, they wouldn't have survived the massacre.

I don't think punishing is the same as bullying. Bullying, in my opinion, is when you harass, threaten, insult, and make that person feel inferior to the point of submission. Punishing requires authority, which Goliath has, and which is usually done with respect.

Any thoughts on this? Anyone?

Demona Taina - [demona3@hotmail.com]
Friday, January 9, 2004 01:47:15 PM
IP: 172.163.103.45

****The Room begins to shake, as if in the grip of a mighty quake. The sky outside is filled with lightning and thunderclaps, as fierce winds howl. It soon seems as though the whole Room shall be ripped asunder, but just as suddenly as the tempest started, it stops. The only difference in the Room is the presence of a rather sullen Blaise.**** One gift I received last month was the extended version of THE TWO TOWERS DVD. I watched it earlier this week, and last night was watching it again to enjoy some of the commentary, when the picture and sound became distorted and choppy and the DVD stopped playing. After repeated attempts, and checking around the 'Net, I have found that the TWO TOWERS DVD's have been noted for some...technical problems. I'm going to call a few places to see what I can have done about this--I *will* have a DVD that can stand repeated viewings!
Anyway, now that that's off my chest....

DEMONA TAINA> Aieeee! Sorry about messing up your name! [offers a cookie]
Anyway, I'm sorry to say I don't think my computer has the capability to take sound bytes from Toon Disney's Spanish feed and send them to you (also, my tech skills are not that good). However, I can confirm hearing Keith David's grunts at the beginning of VOWS!

BROOKLYN X> Brooklyn is my favorite character, too--but I must take umbridge with some of the things you've said about Goliath.
Your example of leaving the Eyrie building doesn't wash with me for one key reason--the CLAN didn't rebel against Goliath's edict, just Hudson and Broadway. And they wouldn't have done it without Elisa's coaching (and as far as Broadway's concerned, anything Elisa champions has to be good--Hudson's was the more practical viewpoint). And what makes Goliath's weakness here so much worse than Brooklyn's refusal to accept the responsibility of his position in KINGDOM? Or his abuse of that position in TURF?
And as for Goliath's sending the Trio to the Rookery back at Wyvern--half of that action was pure politics. Goliath may be optimistic, and even a little naive (sp?) at times, but he's not foolish enough to ignore the powder keg he and his clan are sitting on. Sending the Trio to the Rookery was largely to keep the humans from murdering them in their sleep--hence his comment that, "I will make it up to them, later." Goliath probably knows the humans started it, but as he said, "I cannot condone fighting between their people and ours." For that reason, it was also a reprimand. Mary may have started the whole thing by throwing that stick at Brooklyn, but Brook's and Lex's "Maybe we should live up to being called monsters" stunt was a very UN-wise and UN-intelligent reaction. It could even be considered childish. If we're marking notches against people, that would be another one against Brooklyn. In fact, the only really unfair thing Goliath did was lump Broadway in with Lex and Brooklyn, and I'm sure that (had the massacre not happened) Goliath would have felt rather rotten about that when he found out.
And as for leaning too heavily on Hudson--hey, I may be smarter than my Dad in some things, but I still listen to him and ask him for advice because his experience has allowed him to notice certain patterns in life (if you will).
Now, Goliath is not perfect (naivite (sp?), temper, stubborness, and he can be over-protective at times), but he is a good leader. Brooklyn is also a good leader, and also not perfect (heck, he willingly stole a book of spells and led his leader to a place under false pretenses to meet with someone who had had a bazooka pointed at said leader's chest not too long ago--and Brook's the first to admit his problems in dealing with Demona).
Besides, when all is said and done, Goliath is Brooklyn's hero. There is a very good reason for that.

Well, I'd best get ready--I've got calls to make and auditions to attend. I'll check back a little later on. Until then, farewell. ****Blaise folds his arms and is engulfed in a ball of flame. When the flames disperse, he is gone.****

Blaise
Friday, January 9, 2004 12:07:10 PM
IP: 209.178.160.97

Wwwwooooo... All about Brooklyn hua! Well I'm game too. As a Brook fan that is.

JJ Gregarius>Well, Brooklyn never really talked to very many humans. He sees humans in his sad eyes as mixed, with good and evil thoughts about humans in his head. He really dose not know what he wants to do... He would like humans to like and respect his race yes but as well as not want to be around them. You get treated with respect and you get happiness, but if you receive no respect you will get anger in return. It is the fault of humans that had done this to all the gargoyles. If humans can ever respect such a beautiful race then that would be the day... Well I would respect them if they were real like I would an animal, human, or aliens if they exist. I see no real problem. He uses human tech because their is nothing else. Demona hates the humans but she still uses human weapons, so your point dose not make much use to prove a thing, but good try.

Brooklyn would have followed Demona in allot of ways yes, but not just for one reason. The real truth is that Demona is really right about most she says about humans. 1000's of people die for no reason so I can see how she could be right. She has seen 1000 years of nonstop war among our race and it saddens me to see this is for real and not fiction. Maybe we are really as bad as Demona thinks... She was created after all from our very minds. How would we act toward real gargs if they were real??? What then, would we hunt them down or make peace with them... A reflection of the show would be how we would act to any race... Alien human whatever, we are mostly the same but a small amount like us fans of other races that are non human would see right through their looks and see with in what makes them great inside because that's were it really counts. But movies would be included in the same too. Everything we make tho' is fiction. It's all from our very nature as humans.

Darkness>Goliath is not exactly a bully, just like a bossy father to his clan. He leads with his say threw his work, and not really the say of others. Example is he did not want to leave wyvern even tho' Xanitos could have killed them in their sleep. Goliath would have endangered their lives if the clan had listened to his jugging... But they rebelled and lived. Brooklyn would have gotten his clan out fast unlike Goliath. Goliath is too old fashion and never really evolved like the other characters did in much in change. He was too attached to Hutson which is not good... You don't change unless you seek your wisdom from others and not 1. The many out weight the few! You change like the world dose or you get left in the dust. Demona and MecBeth are the smartest beings on this planet and have changed using all tech. Hutson still uses a old sword and Demona uses all types from old and new weapons of all kinds. So change is what must happen or you will be left behind in time.

Demona Taina>Forgive me for what I am about to say about Goliath Please!? The very 1st episode when Goliath punished them for a thing the humans had caused. ?(All the time it's the humans!)?:Demona's words. She tried to tell him differently but noooo Goliath would not listen, he never dose but to Hutson what is up with that and thats being dense headed. You do not gan wisdom threw age but threw others... I am almost 20 and I am smarter then my family and thats because they taught me this wisdom that works by friend, people, family, and other sources all put together is all greater then 1 heck thay told me they can't beleave how smart I am tho' I don't want to brad but I know people smarter then me and I respect all for thair good things as well as their downfalls and I have that too myself, I know nobodys perfect even myself. I did good in school as well with help from others because I seek-ed it out and gained their wisdom. I have a 3.0 GPA over all my 4 years at high school and I never cheated once. And I see thats the best way to obtain wisdom... Hutson could never really get much of that TV is not the best place at all to get that from but News.

I don't think I'm done, So I'll continue another time. Please ask away. I want to know how you all think about what I said... I would agree on myself in both ways so I really don't know. I chose to say this in a negative way but I also have a positive version of it too. So I am very open minded to the Ideas in allot of ways. These are just some.

I am too tired to go on, So until next time I say, that is all I well say for now!

Brooklyn X - [BrooklynXT@netscape.net]
Friday, January 9, 2004 05:35:11 AM
IP: 63.189.224.249

I've always thought that much of the duality of Brooklyn's character (where he can be timid in one scene and bold in another) stems from, basically, post traumatic stress disorder following the Wyvern massacre. Brooklyn strikes me as the one character who didn't find anything in the modern world to replace (to some extent) the sense of loss which followed the massacre. Goliath found Elisa; Hudson found television; Lexington found technology; Broadway found food, and Brooklyn was kind of left alone. He *tried* to find love and… well, we all know how that worked out [And, if any of you are wondering why I chose television and food for Hudson and Broadway instead of literacy, pretty much the entire clan finds literacy, or more of a reason to improve pre-existing literacy, in the 20th century, so nobody gets points for that]. I think Brooklyn is *finding* leadership and I think that's what's going to help him move past the massacre and, when he does, he'll really begin to make the transition into being a great leader.

I don't wholly agree with the idea that Hudson had to become the de facto leader while Goliath was away, but I think that Brooklyn relied heavily on him for guidance - face it, I don't think anybody is prepared for their leader to just disappear; and certainly Brooklyn, having only *just* been named Second-in-Command, was ill prepared. His closing line in "Upgrade" - "Um, Goliath, be careful, huh? I'm in no hurry to take your place." Goliath heads off three episodes later… bit of a shock. Whatever happened behind the scenes, Brooklyn is far more confident in "Pendragon" than he was in "Kingdom."

This is why I like Brooklyn - there's so much going on there. Of course *all* the characters have more going on than just what we see, but I find Brooklyn one of the more enigmatic characters. But that may just be me.

Alex Garg - [alex_garg@yahoo.com]
VA, USA
Friday, January 9, 2004 04:09:44 AM
IP: 141.156.135.119

Hey all.

Disney is releasing it's t.v. shows on DVD starting with "Popular - season 1" "Boy Meets World - Season 1" and "Felicity - Seson 3" So hopefully we should be seeing other cool shows in the near future.

Also, I need on 13 more votes to get to 50; that's still a LONG way from 100. At 50 I will post the mid vote tally.

www.geocities.com/oscarmovs/gargbest.html

I know some of you haven't voted, but it's not manditory. If you're a fan you should, though. If you have voted once, you can't vote again.

THANKS!!!

That is all I will say.


Battle Beast
CanadaFriday, January 9, 2004 01:16:04 AM
IP: 142.59.145.149

matt >> Thank you!

Demona Taina>> I guess my high school Spanish classes do come in handy. :^)

Darkness>> I thought in that episode that Goliath chastised Brooklyn for pouting after losing the van.

Also, I got the impression that during the "World Tour" Hudson had to take the reins from Brooklyn, mostly because it was Hudson who took responsibility in handling the "intruder" (Bronx!) in "The Gathering Pt. 1." I'm pretty sure I was wrong here though.

Anyhow, I thought "Runaways" had potential. It was a chance for Brooklyn to explore and do things on his own, and a chance to talk to new, friendly humans. It seems to me that he liked that sort of thing, especially talking to people, and that ironically, in all the wonders of twentieth-century Manhattan he felt deprived of personal contact.

This is another thing that intrigued me about Brooklyn: understandably he feels hurt by humanity's attitude towards his race, yet he rather enjoys using human technology, listening to human music, and even befriending humans brave enough not to run away from him. Like with many other elements of the show, there is a conflicting duality in Brooklyn's view of us. Ultimately, he feels humans are worth keeping around, but this decision does not eliminate the hurt. Recall that Demona uses this hurt early in the series to tempt Brooklyn to abdicate his reasoning and trust hers vis-à-vis humans. Still, even then Brooklyn could only follow Demona with trepidation and anguish.

Ultimately, while Brooklyn fears the monsters we can be, he does like us. He just wishes we'd like him back.

JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Thursday, January 8, 2004 08:49:10 PM
IP: 65.244.173.163

Demona Taina. I think people got the impression Goliath was a bully after they watched him during that awful "Runaways" episode. At the start of it he does seem to be a bit pompous when he gives off to Brooklyn for losing that van with the crooks in it, basically calling him a "hatchling". There's also another bit in that episode where he comments about how he thinks Brooklyn might be a good leader one day, while somehow forgetting that Brooklyn already proved himself to be a good leader when he led the clan those few weeks during Goliath's absence.
Darkness - [darknessdescending2000@yahoo.co.uk]
Northern IrelandThursday, January 8, 2004 07:29:43 PM
IP: 195.93.33.12

JJ Gregarius: I'd like to congratulate you because you're one of the first people I know (if not the first) to figure out what "Taína" means. Yes, the Tainos were a race of natives here in the Caribbean. They existed until the Spanish came to invade, and then became extinct over the years due to a number of reasons. Congrats!

Well, I think several countries in Central America and South America use "vosotros," but I've only heard it being used in Spain, Argentina, and maybe even Chile. They also say "vuestro," "vuestra," and "vos."

And I also agree that Brooklyn looks up to Goliath and that they respect each other. I've yet to understand why some people think otherwise. I've heard some fans call Goliath a "bully." When, in the series, has he ever bullied one of the clan? When has he bullied Brooklyn? I just don't understand it. Any thoughts on this?

Demona Taina
Thursday, January 8, 2004 06:14:39 PM
IP: 172.148.147.201

JJ Gregarius> "Sometimes I wonder if Brooklyn's closeness to the tech-wizard Lexington blinds him to his own gifts..."
thats a really cool observation i never considered, and it causes me to think that Brook is surrounded by people with obvious gifts and great attributes, and it does make sense that he would feel a little inferior, but that is mostly because his gifts are more subtle.

matt
Thursday, January 8, 2004 03:10:41 AM
IP: 207.230.48.43

"Where" should be "were."
"[T]o Brooklyn his insecurity..." should be "to Brooklyn *is* his insecurity..."

Sorry.
JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Thursday, January 8, 2004 02:17:03 AM
IP: 65.244.173.163

Demona Taina>>
1) I'm trying to recall why "Taina" looks familiar to me. Where the Tainos a race of natives in the Caribbean?
2) I'm curious who besides the Spanish use "vosotros." On the same topic, don't the Argentineans use the word "vos" with the "vosotros" conjugations of verbs?

Random observations >>
When I was watching the end of the second season over the Christmas break, I suddenly noticed that Goliath sometimes smiled at Brooklyn's wise cracks. (I can't remember which ep. this happened in. :-( ) This meant something to me, because until then, I didn't realize how much Goliath loved Brooklyn: just as much as that beaked gargoyle loved the big guy. I couldn't even interpret Goliath's comment about Brooklyn's "joy ride" in _Temptation_ correctly; I didn't hear the pleasure Greg Weisman claimed was there. I can understand that now. I admit, these are subtile moments, but they give me "warm fuzzies."

On a similar theme, I thought about how quickly Brooklyn came to read in the twentieth century, honestly thinking about reading such advanced works as those of Shakespeare. Brooklyn's aptitude at reading forms a key part of his personality and of his connection to his beloved leader. After all, there are scenes where Goliath prompts Brooklyn to read books: to wit, when Brooklyn asked about Merlin in "Lighthouse on the Sea of Time." It is a subtile aspect, one that I think highlights the intelligence and thirst of knowledge of both gargoyles.

However, Goliath is much more self-assured about such matters than Brooklyn. As I commented earlier, one of the things that attracts me to Brooklyn his insecurity, even angst, in spite of his brilliance. Sometimes I wonder if Brooklyn's closeness to the tech-wizard Lexington blinds him to his own gifts...

...but I am rambling now, no?

JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Thursday, January 8, 2004 02:13:36 AM
IP: 65.244.173.163

Blaise: It's "Taina," by the way, not "Tania," but I don't really mind. Well, actually, I first saw Gargoyles in English when it first aired. I liked the show, but I wasn't a fan (I was a huge fan of TMNT at the time). I remember when my mom told me that Gargoyles was made by Disney that I wouldn't believe her. It was just too good to be a Disney show! Then I lost cable, so I had to watch the local channels. I fell in love with the show in Spanish and I'd already forgotten what the English eps sounded like. I remember that the first episode I ever taped was "City of Stone: Part I" (Ciudad de Piedra: Parte I), because the scene of Demona gliding to the sea and turning to stone as tears streamed down her cheeks was very powerful and I simply had to tape it. Then I taped the next one, and the next one, and the next one... and before I knew it, I had all the episodes on tape. Yikes.

I finally got to rent "The Heroes Awaken" (in English) at Blockbuster, and it sounded weird at first... I even thought that the Spanish eps sounded better (what was I thinking?). But as I watched it, I fell in love with it. Keith David is simply amazing and it was obvious that the voice actors were devoted to the show.

I also agree with you that the Spanish dubs have several grunts and groans added in, and of course, dialogue that either wasn't there before or simply disappeared. For example, in Golem, when Renard told Goliath to leave and Goliath looked shocked, Goliath said, "Adiós." He doesn't say good-bye in English!

There is ONE scene where you can clearly hear Keith David, and that's in Vows, when Xanatos kicks Goliath. You can hear Keith David grunting instead of the translator!

I also believed that Keith David was Caucasian (I'd seen his name on the credits but I didn't know who he was). I don't know why it never occurred to me that he could be African-American, but when I saw him on TV, it just made sense. That voice... that beautiful voice... and of course, I finally understood why they made Goliath look African-American in The Mirror.

And yes, "vosotros" isn't used here in Puerto Rico (we use "ustedes" instead), but it is in Spain and in several other Spanish-speaking countries. But if "David" was pronounced the way you said it was, then it must've been the Spanish dub I'm familiar with. Do you think you could record a sample of the Spanish dub and send it to me in an e-mail? I'd love to hear it.

Demona Taina
Wednesday, January 7, 2004 05:43:04 PM
IP: 172.133.86.111

****Blaise wanders into the Room, clutching a newspaper--his face buried in the Classifieds section.**** With the holidays over, my job hunt is back on in full force.

DEMONA TANIA> Well, I'm not too surprised that there are two Spanish dubs (I know of seen two separate English dubs of various anime). As for which one it is...I know there is a specific term ("vosotros" I think it is) that is unique to Spain. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to determine whether I heard that or not.
If it helps, Xanatos' dub voice seemed to say "David" the English way (dave-id) as opposed to the way I've usually heard it pronounced in Spanish (dav-eed).
Tell me though--you first heard GARGOYLES in Spanish, yes? What was it like when you heard it in English for the first time?

Well, I've got to get back to work, so I'll see you all later. Until then, farewell. ****Taking a deep breath, Blaise dives into the Classifieds section of the newspaper...literally. The paper itself not only remains in mid-air, but floats out of the Room by its own power.****

Blaise
Wednesday, January 7, 2004 12:18:06 PM
IP: 209.179.192.209

Battle Beast> Thanks for the welcome! Although...I won't be able to say anything for a while. I'm shipping my computer off for repairs...something about 'replacing the motherboard'...ouch.
zess
Wednesday, January 7, 2004 01:15:59 AM
IP: 198.81.26.41

Been looking forward to Aaron's question (and Greg's response) for a while. After that... sorry, Greg.
Alex Garg
VA, USA
Tuesday, January 6, 2004 07:54:18 PM
IP: 138.88.60.132

Well, Greg actually answered four questions today rather than two (plus doing a ramble including his thoughts on the "Return of the King" movie). He's definitely speeding up again. (And we've got, just two questions from now, what looks like an interesting and thoughtful question about the "Frankenstein" themes in "Gargoyles" pertaining to such figures as Coldstone; that should make a nice change from all the "why was the show cancelled?" questions.)
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, January 6, 2004 07:28:34 PM
IP: 63.186.0.145

Todd wrote: >>Poor Greg! He's getting asked once again about what Titania whispered to Fox! I wonder if he really regrets that scene in "The Gathering Part Two" now.<<


Hm, I still don't know if it is something ongoing or just a gag or something he had no ideas for yet... Strange scene. It is.

However, he came out last year with Lex comming out! So you never know when he'll announce what...

The Coma-man
Berlin, Germany
Tuesday, January 6, 2004 11:50:00 AM
IP: 217.87.27.215

Blaise: I think there are at least two versions of the Spanish dubs. I've seen two anyway, one from Spain and the other from somewhere else that aired here in Puerto Rico. Do you know which version you saw?

As for The Mirror in Spanish...

Updraft:

Goliath: "Cuando eras humana, nunca me di cuenta de lo bella que eres."
Elisa: "¿Acaso pensabas que era fea?"
Goliath: "Pues, uh... ¡Cuidado! ¡Corriente ascendente!"
Elisa: "¡Heh, heh, heh! ¿Por qué nunca había hecho esto?"
Goliath: "No podías; eras humana. ¡Mira!"
Elisa: "¡Oh no, mira eso, Goliat!"
Goliath: "Aterricemos en algun sitio, para hablar."
Elisa: "¿Viste? Todos en Manhattan se han convertido en... ¡humanos!"
Goliath: "No, no, no, no, no..."

Ack, punching in the code for each and every Spanish accent and special character can get tiresome after a while. Well, here's the "I'll always be there to catch you" part, in Spanish...

Brooklyn: "Ya recuperamos el espejo. ¿Ahora qué?"
Hudson: "Uno de los hijos de Oberón está con Démona. Lo conozco."
Goliath: "Ah... Le llamó... ¡Puck!"
Elisa: "En la obra de Shakespeare, Puck era un tramposo inofensivo."
Goliath: "Lo que pasó abajo no fue inofensivo. Vamos, continuemos buscándolos."
Elisa: "Oh, nunca me acostumbraré a saltar de los edificios."
Goliath: "Siempre estaré presto a ayudarte."

Well, I hope that helped. Let me know if you need any more help with Spanish dubs. Ciao!

Demona Taina
Tuesday, January 6, 2004 09:24:27 AM
IP: 66.50.214.28

Found this on the net hope you enjoy myths and legands! I do mostly of mid-evil stuff. What should we beleave or not beleave? Hummm... Now that is the question because... The truth is out their. (words from X-Files)

Gargoyles: Myths & Legends

(Written by Genocidal Smasher with additional research by Ecco1980)

Gargoyles: An Introduction

The cartoon series "Gargoyles" was a highly original and complex cartoon show that managed to incorporate and successfully combine many folklore, legends, mythological and biblical stories along with the works of Shakespeare,

and the legends of King Arthur into a massive universe connecting them all together. It broke the mold of the traditional Disney animated series with its dramatic plot and a diverse cast.

Gargoyles and Chimeras: A Brief History

Gargoyles are believed to have been inspired from a number of different sources, including mythology, religion, history, and legends. The most common belief is that the mythological creature called the Chimera inspired them. The Chimera was a fire-breathing monster with the head of a lion, the body of a goat, and the tail of a serpent. The hero Bellerophon was sent to destroy the monster that terrorized his city. Along with him was his winged horse, Pegasus, and together they defeated the Chimera, thus freeing the city. As a result, stone statues were made resembling the Chimera as a remembrance of the horrid creature that Bellerophon destroyed and of his bravery in doing so.

Other beliefs suggest that gargoyles were inspired from religious perceptions and the Bible. The creatures were meant

to represent sin. Wrongdoing, or even the devil himself. Some believe that gargoyles were even partially inspired from skeletal remains of prehistoric dinosaurs. Others say that historic beasts and even star constellations inspired them. Whatever the case may be, the bottom line is that gargoyles have more depth to them then meets the eye.

According to myths and legends, real gargoyle creatures were very majestic and mysterious animals. They were stone statues during the day, and magically turned into flesh and blood creatures during the night. The stone slumber was a way for them to rejuvenate themselves and even heal wounds accumulated from the previous night. In honor of these noble creatures, humans began carving stone statues based on them and thus became modern day gargoyles.

And that's all I will say, for now! Again... Oops?! Sorry thought you might have missed this.

BrooklynXT - [BrooklynXT@netscape.net]
Cold Nights in the new year, In my State, Of the USA
Tuesday, January 6, 2004 04:19:31 AM
IP: 63.189.224.194

****A large, golden dragon sticks his head through the Room's window. Standing atop the dragon's head, in perfect balance, is Blaise. He deftly steps down into the Comment Room, and waves to his dragon, Coren, as it leaves.**** Been a while, I know, but I was enjoying my gifts. ;-)

POST HOLIDAY GREETINGS> I hope everyone had an enjoyable holiday season. For me, it was a little more subdued than usual--due to commitments to a play and contiued job searching, I couldn't visit my family this year. But I had a good time with my friends, and got some pretty nifty gifts. One of which was cable TV.
Yes, I am receiving cable TV for the next few months. As a result, I can now watch GARGOYLES on Toon Disney again. However, on a whim, I decided to watch it in Spanish for a while.
Onto the next topic....

GARGOYLES IN OTHER LANGUAGES> Watching the Spanish dub of GARGOYLES has been a very fascinating experience for me. Now, unfortunately, I don't understand much Spanish (my experience is limited to three years of classes in High School--and the third year, with the conjugations, and the past and future tenses, pretty much killed me). However, I do pick up a couple of relatively minor line changes here and there. For example, in "THE MIRROR," Goliath's line of "I'll always be there to catch you" was more like "I'll always help you" (at least I think he said "ayudar"--Demona Tania, any help?). Also there's sometimes lines where there were none before, or no line where there was one in the original (Macbeth's entrance in "LIGHTHOUSE..."). Also, the dub cast seems to add more "hems," laughs or grunts at formerly silent areas. I'm not criticizing this at all, but it was something that struck me.
As far as the casting goes, overall I don't have many complaints. I haven't found any that I like more than the original American voices yet, but there are some voices that strike me as being particularly well done. Elisa's dub is foremost, followed by Hudson, then Xanatos and Demona. There are a couple of voices I don't particularly care for--Brooklyn's dub just doesn't do it for me (though that may be because I'm used to Jeff Bennett's more throaty sound). I also felt Macbeth's dub sounded a bit too young, or too clear.
Anyway, this just got me to thinking back a few *years* ago when a some of the folks in here talked about hearing GARGOYLES in other languages (Aris Katsaris gave some great details on the Greek dub). Has anyone else heard the show in another language? Any thoughts?
Also, I remember one website that talked about how the Spanish voice cast for GARGOYLES was the same cast for THE SIMPSONS. Was that your's, Demona Tania?

Well, I've got DVD commentary to finish watching, so I'll check back later. Until then, farewell. ****Blaise lifts his arms skyward and is promptly struck by lighting. In a flash, all that's left of him is a wisp of smoke, dissipating into the air.****

Blaise
Tuesday, January 6, 2004 01:07:51 AM
IP: 209.179.226.123

Well, It took "Family Guy" 1,000,000 copies sold to get fox's attention; and yes, there are plans to bring it back this december/january 05, and ALL BECAUSE of the DVD sales.

Because FOX is bringing it back, this may and should get other studio's attention. If Gargs sell that well, and because there was a precident, Disney may be quick to act.

Myself, I am buying three: two for me and one for a friend who likes the show but won't buy the DVD.

That is all I will say.

Battle Beast
CanadaTuesday, January 6, 2004 01:03:10 AM
IP: 142.59.145.149

One million copies sounds about right. I'm really interested to see what kind of marketing campaign Disney launches for the DVD, if any. They usually have some sort of commercial whenever an anniversary DVD comes out. But the biggest thing we can do that will make a difference is get the word out to others about the DVD - the fandom alone buying hoarde loads of DVDs won't make much of a difference (unless my estimates of lurkers here is *way* lower than I have in mind)... gotta get other people buying.

When making a pitch to prospective parents, consider this: "And no, you don't have to worry about your kids begging you to 'catch them all.'"

Alex Garg - [alex_garg@yahoo.com]
VA, USA
Tuesday, January 6, 2004 12:00:26 AM
IP: 141.156.242.123

Umm, BattleBeast, I somehow said I was from France in your poll.
As my posts reflect, I am actually an American living in Florida.
:-/

JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL, United States of America
Monday, January 5, 2004 11:47:02 PM
IP: 65.244.173.163

Alright, guess it's my turn to stir up some activity...

Now that 2004 has come, we'll eventually get that Gargoyles DVD sometime this year. How many copies would it take to change Disney's mind and bring the show back? How many copies are each of us buying? Obiviously a lot, but if a number was needed, probably around a million or more. Think that's how many the first season of family guy sold...

Even if this doesn't work, at least I'll have the original episodes to watch instead of the poor quality, hacked up edits that I have on my computer.

Hope Greg had a good vacation. Wonder if there's a ramble coming...

Rac
Troy, NY, USA
Monday, January 5, 2004 11:27:44 PM
IP: 24.194.46.193

Hey all.

Welcome Zess. Yah, psot away when the topic is right for you.

If you haven't voted in to pole yet, please do. I still need more votes. Thanks again.

www.geocities.com/oscarmovs/gargbest.html

or clicky my name.

That is all I will say.

Battle Beast
CanadaMonday, January 5, 2004 10:00:29 PM
IP: 142.59.145.149

This is what I got from the Oxford English Dictionary (with multiple volumes) for the word "more" as in "more's the pity"

***
with substantive of quality condtion, action, and the like: Greater in degree or extent; also having a fuller title to the designation. Obsolite except where it coincides [with another sense of "more"].

The expression "(the) more's the pity" may be regarded as a historical survival.

***
Note: According to the Marriam-Webster OnLine dictionary (www.m-w.com), a substantive is " a word or word group functioning syntactically as a noun."

Thus, if I've read all this correctly, the word "more" in the phrase "more's the pity" is acting like a noun referring to some greater aspect or quality, in this case the "pity." For example, when Demona hardened her heart, her pain was the tragedy, but the "pity" that she could not change was greater. It was the "more." Or, in other words, the "more" is the "pity."
In modern English we might say "the pity is the worse thing," or the like. Or, we could just use the handy idiomatic phrase "more's the pity." ;-)

I thought I got famous usage examples (with dates!), but apparently I didn't jot them down. I'll have to look them up again.

JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Monday, January 5, 2004 09:08:38 PM
IP: 65.244.173.163

Poor Greg! He's getting asked once again about what Titania whispered to Fox! I wonder if he really regrets that scene in "The Gathering Part Two" now.

(Check the "questions answered" section of "Ask Greg" to see what I mean.)

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Monday, January 5, 2004 07:57:19 PM
IP: 63.186.0.201

Tenth! And now on with the regular comment room...
Patrick
Monday, January 5, 2004 07:02:01 AM
IP: 68.73.165.58

........................9th.

Vin

castle0909
Monday, January 5, 2004 06:42:24 AM
IP: 152.163.252.100

8th! Just like my question in the AG queue.
Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
Monday, January 5, 2004 03:42:17 AM
IP: 172.132.62.144

7th...
Hmm. I've only posted a handful of times here, and I think the majority of those were "top ten" posts. *mental note: actually participate in conversation* :)

zess
Monday, January 5, 2004 03:12:34 AM
IP: 63.150.32.146

6th?
DPH
AR, USA
Monday, January 5, 2004 02:00:18 AM
IP: 204.94.193.49

Fifth.

I will post my findings about "more's the pity" later today.

Sorry about the delay. :(
JJ Gregarius
Orlando, FL
Monday, January 5, 2004 01:55:15 AM
IP: 65.244.173.163

Fourth.
Alex Garg - [alex_garg@yahoo.com]
VA, USA
Monday, January 5, 2004 01:26:29 AM
IP: 141.156.195.229

third, and not much else to claim.
Lynati
Monday, January 5, 2004 12:51:06 AM
IP: 65.66.150.149

2ND!!!!

best i've done in a loooong time....

matt
Monday, January 5, 2004 12:03:27 AM
IP: 207.230.48.120

!!!1st!!! I clame yeat again.

And that's all I will say for now!

BrooklynXT - [BrooklynXT@netscape.net]
Cold Nights in the new year, In my State, Of the USA
Monday, January 5, 2004 12:01:20 AM
IP: 63.189.224.217