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Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending August 23, 2004

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Happy Belated Birthday Todd!
Greg Bishansky
Sunday, August 22, 2004 11:53:23 PM
IP: 162.84.164.187

Todd - I was just thinking about a not so emphasized angle in "Deadly Force". It's the 1st time Broooklyn shows his leadership skills. Think about it: somebody had to bring it up. Goliath would be overly concerned about it and one of the trio would have to notice his absence. Then again, he shows skills in "Leader of the Pack". By the time we get around to "Upgrade", which member of the trio has really shown the most leadership.

Personally, I would have liked to see Dingo do more stuff while in the "Dream Time", like perhaps pulling out some version of the Pack to help in the fight against Matrix.


DPH
AR, USA
Sunday, August 22, 2004 11:24:52 PM
IP: 67.14.195.23

I've never been to a Gathering, but I'd like to go to one of these years. I definitely won't make 2005 (I'll be preparing for study abroad, and I need to save my money this year).

2006 - maybe. It depends where it is. If it's in Virginia or DC or something, I could probably work it in somehow. Thing is, I'm a poor college student that doesn't have any friends that are in to Gargoyles like me. *sigh*

Enough rambling. I can't wait till Gargoyles comes out on DVD! :)

Kristen - [zzilly14@yahoo.com]
VA
Sunday, August 22, 2004 10:55:29 PM
IP: 151.199.10.10

It's not too late to put together a bid for 2006. 2005 is decided, but 2006 is free and open for bids. I'm fairly sure the Gathering web site will have up "how to make a bid" stuff soon.

:: is making a bid for 2006 as well ::

Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson - [jla@artchicks.org]
Sunday, August 22, 2004 10:40:25 PM
IP: 216.249.67.74

Oops sorry about the spam.

Woohoo, Beth is going, Beth is going.

Matt Fews
Sunday, August 22, 2004 07:04:39 PM
IP: 67.68.75.126

...
Matt Fews
Sunday, August 22, 2004 07:03:41 PM
IP: 67.68.75.126

Gorebash - okay, I'm committed to attending G05 - or is it that I'm being committed...:-) Now where are the BM images :-)

Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury! Hey cutie, what's new with you? Email me - I moved from MD to CA. Haven't talked to you since Philly. And yes, you had BETTER make it to Vegas for 2005 or I will have to throw a plain jane tantrum! And no one wants that :-)

Beth Maza - [bethmaza1997@yahoo.com]
Sunday, August 22, 2004 06:56:53 PM
IP: 69.107.15.173

Finally got my Gathering photos scanned and posted! Click or go to http://www.eskimo.com/~vecna/g04_pics_main.html
Christine - [<--- Now with PICS!]
Sunday, August 22, 2004 05:16:20 PM
IP: 67.136.137.126

Click my name for info on Ottawa
Matt Fews
Sunday, August 22, 2004 04:21:06 PM
IP: 67.68.72.73

I'll check into, but I think that both Ontario place and Paramount Canada's Wonderland are both close by.
Matt Fews
Sunday, August 22, 2004 04:10:55 PM
IP: 67.68.72.73

Where it'll be held is indeed moot right now if an organizing committee for that city isn't ready to prepare it.

I'd love for it to be in Ottawa. That's only a 2-hour trip from me, and I have family I could stay with there. Thing is, it definitely can't exist in a vacuum.

I don't have the energy to run one, but even I alone wouldn't be enough manpower for it.

Besides: how soon does a bid have to be made before it's decided on? It may be too late to even pitch it.

Jeffrey Allan Boman - [croft@bigfoot.com]
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Sunday, August 22, 2004 03:43:30 PM
IP: 24.37.95.22

The question is not whether any is interested in having Gathering 2006 in Ottawa, it's whether there's anyone in Ottawa interested in organizing the convention. There is never any shortage of people interested in having the convention happen in their immediate vicinity, but finding people willing to devote 18 months of their life to being on con staff is another matter entirely.

Or as I like to say, "Ask not what your fandom can do for you, but what you can do for your fandom."

107 days left until the Gargoyles DVD is released on December 7, 2004!

Patrick
Sunday, August 22, 2004 02:47:19 PM
IP: 68.170.199.45

Since Gathering 2005 will be in Vegas, I would like to know if anyone is interested in having Gathering 06 in Ottawa.

If it was, I could go, under the guise of visiting a friend who currently lives there.

Matt Fews
Sunday, August 22, 2004 09:49:31 AM
IP: 67.68.227.2

Patrick, I might be able to do that if Quebec had access to those channels, but alas, It doesn't, so I either have to wait for Season 2/3 to come out on DVD, or have someone else tape them for me using a second VCR.
Matt Fews
Sunday, August 22, 2004 09:27:06 AM
IP: 64.228.204.139

Image by laurean. Yes, you may direct link from my server. Copy and paste:

<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0002W4SY0/qid=1093025572/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/103-8401935-1847831?v=glance&s=dvd"><img src="http://www.coloden.com/sapphire/temp/gargdvd.jpg" border="0"></a><br><font size="2">Pre-Order it. Spread the word.</font>

Sapphire/Kelly
Sunday, August 22, 2004 06:34:12 AM
IP: 12.8.228.146

I know what my Christmas present to myself will be. I'll wait until it comes out since you can pretty much guarantee that buy.com will offer free shipping after the release date. Looks like my pile of DVD's I still haven't watched will get even bigger. Are there really only going to be what's listed on the News Central page here included as extras? Pretty paltry for waiting for the 10th anniversary if you ask me.

So, '05 is going to be in Sin City, huh? And Mrs. Plain Jane is going to be there? Hmm. Depending on the dates, I might just make the 22 hour drive out to another one. Looks like I just missed this year's, being in Montreal two weeks earlier.
Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury
Sunday, August 22, 2004 03:18:14 AM
IP: 4.230.255.175

DVD> to whom it may concern, just let me know when i should order mine, i don't care when we do the mass pre-order, but be sure to give all the fan comment rooms some heads up!

i'm beginning to get to a point where my biggest regret about not attending The Gathering is that i won't be able to post a journal! c'mon guys, if anyone is holding out, type up something, 18% or whatever is pretty sad...

matt
Saturday, August 21, 2004 11:12:45 PM
IP: 68.95.56.142

Todd> What you might want to also think about is the Agnanu (g is silent), the aborigines that surround Uluru (Ayer's Rock) prefer 'Dreamtime' to be called 'Creationtime'. :) This is mainly because they don't want tourists to think of the Dreamtime as a dream, but as an actual time that occurred.

Btw, if anyone ever goes to Uluru, I highly suggest the aboriginal tour. You gotta wake up EARLY..but it is *WORTH* the early wake up! (Not to mention, you get to see the part of Uluru that isn't allowed to be photographed)

Siryn - [<-- MGC!]
Saturday, August 21, 2004 09:20:12 PM
IP: 68.54.148.183

Matt > You're asking quite a big favor. VHS tapes aren't free, and it would take no small investment in time to dub all those episodes, either. You might have better luck making your own tapes off ABC Family or Toon Disney.

108 days left until the Gargoyles DVD is released on December 7, 2004!

Patrick
Saturday, August 21, 2004 09:03:15 PM
IP: 68.170.199.45

MATT - Sorry, but I honestly don't have the technical know-how or skills to do that.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, August 21, 2004 08:55:07 PM
IP: 4.244.12.65

Todd, will it be possible for you to make copies of all episodes from Season 2/3 for me, I'd really appreciate it
Matt Fews
Saturday, August 21, 2004 08:13:18 PM
IP: 67.70.35.25

Watched my tape of "Walkabout" today. The episode that introduced Anastasia Renard (well, introduced her on-stage; she'd been introduced as an off-stage character in "Outfoxed"), and had Dingo and Matrix team up as a lead-in for "Bad Guys".

One thing that I like about this episode was that it made the notion of "a machine trying to take over the world" believable to me. I doubt, on the whole, that machines, robots, or computers really would seek to conquer the planet, all those science fiction movies to the contrary, because in order to undertake something like that you'd need power hunger, greed, or some other emotion, and I can't see machines possessing emotions. (If I ever did write a story about a machine taking over the world, I'd have it turn out that the machine was only a blind, and it was really a human giving orders to the machine secretly, in a sort of "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" scenario. Come to think of it, they used a similar concept in "Future Tense", though the focus was more on who "the man behind the machine" was than the fact that there was a "man behind the machine".)

But with Matrix, I thought it believable because his actions were a logical offshoot of his programming. His purpose was to bring about order, and he believed that reformatting the planet would do just that. He could easily have been unaware of the consequences of his actions on the living beings on Earth (or, more accurately, unaware that the consequences mattered), given that he was still new to the world and not yet familiar with his surroundings. He might even have thought of extirpating life as we know it in the same light that we'd see cleaning the germs and dirt off of an old ball. At any rate, he made a believable "artificial intelligence would-be conqueror". (Of course, there's the plans for Coyote-X in "Gargoyles 2198" as wanting to conquer first the planet, then the entire galaxy. How Greg was going to do that, though, we'll probably never know, short of his actually getting to make that spin-off.)

The touch that I particularly liked was when Goliath and Dingo were talking to him in the Dreamtime, and when Goliath is protesting to Matrix "Your peace is that of the grave", the Matrix replies, in an uneasy or defensive tone of voice, "But we must have order", as if to say that, while he was starting to see Goliath's point, he was still stuck with the problem that bringing about order was his purpose, what he had been programmed to do, and he couldn't go against it.

One possible nit (though we'll have to see what Greg Weisman says about it): Fox and Anastasia point out that they can't communicate with the Matrix in real time because it thinks far faster than humans or gargoyles, which is why Goliath and Dingo have to go into the Dreamtime to speak to it. But at the end, when the Matrix flows over Dingo's armor to join forces with him, it speaks to him (as in "Teach us of this law and order"). (Maybe it had voluntarily slowed itself down so that it can communicate with the regular world.)

A few other thoughts:

The Matrix in its humanoid form looked a bit like a "Gray". I don't know if that was deliberate or not.

I find the scene at the beginning where Bronx growls and barks at the kangaroo amusing. Good thing that he didn't jump out of the skiff and chase it.

My favorite scene with the shaman: when the gargoyles are hiding beside Dingo's truck so that only Dingo and Elisa will approach him, and he immediately says to them, in a matter-of-fact way, "Why not bring your other friends into the light?"

A friend of mine with some familiarity with Australian myth and legend pointed out that "the Dreamtime" was used inaccurately in the episode; in actual Aborigine legend, the Dreamtime isn't another dimension or an otherworld, but a "beginning of time" period when the world was still being formed (the time when animals could speak like people, for example). I don't know what Greg Weisman has to say about that; maybe he'll bring it up when/if he gets to do the ramble for this episode.

Why do I have the feeling, by the way, that one of the most memorable bits about this episode for a lot of the viewers was the fact that they actually dared show Fox as visibly pregnant? :)

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, August 21, 2004 07:11:51 PM
IP: 4.244.12.65

Hello Again, here's the link to my VH1 "I Love the 90's" Post on Gargoyles. Keep it on the first page by replying with your support of getting it on "Strikes Back"!. UK fans can use the zipcode 97212 during registration. Here's the link:

http://www.vh1.com/interact/boards/main.jhtml/i_love_the_90s/ViewThread?tID=615096&mID=3215955&offset=0&index=0

-Gantros
Gantros
Saturday, August 21, 2004 06:30:38 PM
IP: 24.20.243.55

And Alex Garg's Gathering 2004 adventure is now posted... finally. One more thing off the list.

*has nothing more to contribute, resumes lurking in the shadows*

Alex Garg
VA, USA
Saturday, August 21, 2004 04:02:44 PM
IP: 138.88.182.125

And here it is with the right link.
Whitbourne
Saturday, August 21, 2004 03:13:51 PM
IP: 156.34.51.81

My crusade. As Demona once said, I like the sound of that. :-)

As per Jen's suggestion, I did get a live journal, and while my crusade will doubtless show up there, especially once school starts, for now it's fairly low-key. Here's a link for anyone who's interested.
Whitbourne
Saturday, August 21, 2004 02:49:59 PM
IP: 156.34.51.81

Todd, maybe if this Ellen character falls in love with a purple lawn sculpture.
Matt Fews
Saturday, August 21, 2004 02:28:04 PM
IP: 67.71.110.64

First of all, I would like to make an apology for what I said earlier about Whit's Crusade.

Siryn, Thanx so much, I look forward to getting it since as you know I've been raiding my Snail-mail box every day for the past week and 1/2 wondering if it arrived.

Matt Fews
Saturday, August 21, 2004 02:26:29 PM
IP: 67.71.110.64

Sorry for the double post.

MOONCAT> I wrote one I was nowhere near Montreal!!!

As for the thing at the top... great idea.

AND FROM WHAT I'VE BEEN READING, this DVD will sell big time. (Or, at least, very well.)

GO CANADA GO


Battle Beast
GO CANADA GO!!!, Canada
Saturday, August 21, 2004 01:42:12 PM
IP: 142.59.132.116

...
b\
Saturday, August 21, 2004 01:34:56 PM
IP: 142.59.132.116

(sorry for the double post didn't catch the comments)

Matt Fewes> Karine has your programme to mail out. I would assume she's done it. I can promise you she didn't do it until at least after I left Montreal. (Which was on Thursday the 12th) so she probably mailed it after that date. We were too busy wedding dress shopping! ~_^

Jen> What do you mean LOOK possessed...we *ARE* possessed...

Err.. *coughs* *denies everything and whistles innocently*

Siryn - [<-- Gargoyles DVD Button]
Saturday, August 21, 2004 12:55:22 PM
IP: 68.54.148.183

KWS> I made this one for MGC & AMGC you and anyone else are more than welcome to use it if you like.
Siryn - [<-- Gargoyles DVD Banner]
Saturday, August 21, 2004 12:49:40 PM
IP: 68.54.148.183

Matt -- no, it's not a hoax. The information comes from several verifiable sources INCLUDING official Pentagon investigations, and actually has been public knowledge for several months. I'm not sure if this is the proper place to discuss the topic, but I understand Whit's sense of horror.

GATHERING JOURNALS - Did we have to go to the Gathering to write one *^_^* -- I have my "Gathering Weekend, But I Didn't Get To Go" Journal =D =D =D and my "Post Gathering, And Glued to the Journals" Journal... *^_^*

ack... need breakfast now...
meows
Mooncat

Mooncat
Saturday, August 21, 2004 09:21:02 AM
IP: 68.102.17.133

Just doing my evening post to get people to reply to VH1's I Love the 90's Post on Gargoyles. UK Fans use the zipcode 97212 for registration.
Gantros
Friday, August 20, 2004 11:23:02 PM
IP: 24.20.243.55

Ok, I finaly got my Journal submited to Ask Greg (after a few trys) and also put up a load of photos. The report is up there as a DOC, TXT, and HTML forms.

But mostly go look at the Mask PHOTOS! Everyone had awsome costumes and I didn't get nearly enough photos but still...

So its all here : http://www.silentecho.org/Gathering04/

I had a great weekend!
~Kaylee~

Kaylee Skylyn
CanadaFriday, August 20, 2004 10:50:38 PM
IP: 216.221.81.97

My two cents on the DVD pre-orders...

I think it would be better to wait until closer to the release date to attempt a timed mass-purchase on Amazon. The closer to the actual release date that it gets bumped up to the top of the list, the more I think that spike will help the over-the-counter retail sales.

109 days left until the Gargoyles DVD is released on December 7, 2004!

Patrick
Friday, August 20, 2004 10:16:02 PM
IP: 68.170.199.45

Well, posted my Gathering report in Ask Greg two days ago and have finally posted it on my site. *points down to link* And today, I finished uploading all the pictures I took as well. You can start looking at them with this page:

http://www.shaunpup.com/pictures/picpages/g2k4_p1.htm

Just click on the next link to check out all the other picture pages. I'll say this, I had loads of fun at the Gathering this year. Hope to see and read more Gathering reports.

Shaun "BrooklynX"
Friday, August 20, 2004 10:04:32 PM
IP: 67.123.140.54

So far so good, Keep those replies coming. If you don't know, I'm trying to get the I love the 90's people to put Gargoyles in their second season by keeping it high on the forum list. Go to VH1.com and go into their forums and keep the post alive! FOr UK fans, when registering, use the zipcode 97212.

-Gantros
Gantros
Friday, August 20, 2004 08:23:00 PM
IP: 24.20.243.55

I was looking at Comics Continuum earlier this evening, and saw the section on the major characters for the upcoming animated series "The Batman". One of the characters is a police detective named Ellen Yin, who wears a red jacket, a black shirt, and blue jeans. Does anyone besides me feel a sense of deja vu coming on?

(Incidentally, Mr. Freeze is being voiced by Clancy Brown, the voice of Hakon and Wolf. He seems to be much more conventionally villainous here than in "Batman: TAS" - no mention of Nora. Of course, the Nora element was probably the exclusive property of the continuity in "Batman: TAS", which would explain her absence in this version.)

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Friday, August 20, 2004 07:37:24 PM
IP: 4.244.18.252

Pre-ordering for the Gargoyles Season 1 DVD is up!
<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0002W4SY0/qid=1093025572/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/103-3257603-7215839?v=glance&s=dvd">http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0002W4SY0/qid=1093025572/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/103-3257603-7215839?v=glance&s=dvd</a>

Note swiped from Lynati over at TGS's room:
We are trying to arrange a fandom-wide time and date for ordering/pre-ordering in an attempt to bump the DVD statistics up to a noticeable level. Keep your eyes peeled for this, in the forums and ask Ask Greg itself.

Y2Hecate - [y2hecate@aol.com]
TN, USA
Friday, August 20, 2004 06:59:04 PM
IP: 172.161.76.161

Thanks for the happy birthday, Greg. (I must admit, it's a real treat to get wished a happy birthday by the man who created one of my favorite television series. I never dreamed while "Gargoyles" was still airing that something like that would happen to me.)
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Friday, August 20, 2004 06:24:11 PM
IP: 4.244.18.252

I'll post as soon as I get the BBC registration E-mail, I guess they must have a back up or something because I filled out the registration w/o any problems and I'm just waiting for the e-mail, thanks for the replies on VH1!
Gantros
Friday, August 20, 2004 06:19:11 PM
IP: 24.20.243.55

I'm clearly incompetent. Try clicking this time.
GW
Friday, August 20, 2004 06:17:55 PM
IP: 4.232.156.42

Thanks for the zipcode Gantros, have just posted on there.

Click on my name for my BBC post.

Faieq
Friday, August 20, 2004 05:56:02 PM
IP: 212.159.30.247

Sorry. Not posted here. But at ASK GREG.

Click my name.
Greg
Friday, August 20, 2004 05:51:13 PM
IP: 4.232.156.42

Gore - Thanks.

GANG - Todd informs me that we now have 28 Gathering journals (or partial journals). That's still only 18% of attendees.

SPREAD THE WORD. GATHERING REPORTS/JOURNALS/DIARIES need to be posted here by AUGUST 31st. PLEASE!!!! After that the question asking function will be shut down to allow Gore, Todd and I to address long-term issues with the queue.
Greg
Friday, August 20, 2004 05:50:08 PM
IP: 4.232.156.42

Saph: We should definatly have that. I think the best place for central information on the DVD and a "Buy from Amazon" button should be the G05 webpage once Chris gets it updated.
IRC Goliath - [goliath1@pacbell.net]
From my sidekick
Friday, August 20, 2004 05:49:01 PM
IP: 63.241.65.90

I need to get someone to do a Gargs graphic, then we can really get the advertisements out on a site. Hey, how about a button that links to Greg's post about the DVD? or a page about the DVD, what it will contain, and a link to Amazon?
Sapphire/Kelly
Friday, August 20, 2004 05:14:50 PM
IP: 69.38.34.129

That's ok, I can still reply to yours, as for the zipcode thing, it's only purpose (according to their help page) is to provide information on tour dates and other location based info. You can use this zipcode: 97212, it's for Portland, Oregon, USA, where I used to live.
Gantros - [gantros@hotmail.com]
Friday, August 20, 2004 05:06:34 PM
IP: 24.20.243.55

Only problem is Gantros I can't register for VH1 as I don't "have a valid zipcode" (I live in the UK). Sorry
Faieq
Friday, August 20, 2004 04:58:09 PM
IP: 212.159.30.247

I'll reply to your BBC Post if you'll reply to mine :)

I'm trying to get enough interest in Gargoyles on the VH1 "I Love the 90's" Forum. IF you, fellow Gagoyle Fans, were to post replies to keep it on the first page and high up on that page. Perhaps someone who works the show would take notice and put it on their second season, a "Strikes Back" or whatever.

-Gantros
Gantros
Friday, August 20, 2004 04:50:27 PM
IP: 24.20.243.55

Gantros> I'm trying the same thing but on the BBC "Generally Culty" message board. Over the next few months hopefully we can get the word out and revive enough interest in the series.

BTW does anyone know when, if it is going to be, will the DVD be released here in the UK/Europe. If anyone knows the answer to this could they tell me. It would be a real letdown if they decided not to release the DVD overseas.

Faieq
Friday, August 20, 2004 04:46:27 PM
IP: 212.159.30.247

So *#$*ing typical. A parargraph tag inside of a form block breaks Netscape 4. WTF?

Greg: It's fixed now. You can use NN4. That was all me. I updated the area at the top of the CR to try and get the word out about the con journals.

--DVD Stuffs--
I see that a lot of online stores are pricing the DVD at 20-25 bucks for pre-order. Amazon.com and Video Universe seem to have the cheapest at $20.99 while B&N and Buy.com have it at 23.98 and 22.98 respectively.

Here are some links to online forums talking about the DVD release:
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/vine/showthread.php?t=303192
http://forums.toonzone.net/archive/index.php/t-73945.html

And I'm working some stuff on the side to try and promote this DVD to people outside of the fandom. If anyone out there is running a website, non-Gargoyles, it would be worth it to toss a quick something up that promotes the DVD release. We've got to bring this to those who are outside the fandom.

I tell you _EVERY_ person I have talked to about the DVD release have all reacted the same way. "Gee, I really liked that show." It's seems like everyone knows about the show, and really liked the show, and now we need to let them know the DVD is comming out.

Gorebash - [gorebash@s8.org]
Friday, August 20, 2004 04:39:20 PM
IP: 192.207.57.40

Okay, I've temporarily switched over from Netscape to Explorer, so now I can read my own posts, etc. Don't know why Netscape is SUDDENLY acting weird on me.

ANYWAY -- HAPPY BIRTHDAY, TODD!!!
Greg Weisman
Friday, August 20, 2004 03:27:28 PM
IP: 4.232.156.42

Am I the only one experiencing this?

The default white color that I use and which I think is used for everyone's info at the bottom of their posts has gone black?
Greg Weisman
Friday, August 20, 2004 03:13:33 PM
IP: 4.232.156.42

Yes, Gargoyles is up for pre-order at Amazon.com For those of you who haven't seen it yet, click on my name or go here:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0002W4SY0/qid=1093025572/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/103-3257603-7215839?v=glance&s=dvd

Chris and I have already put up reviews of the show :) And if you read mine Greg, yes, I had the balls to compare Gargoyles to Buffy! Mwahahah! I've said it before and I'll say it again: Gargoyles was Buffy before Buffy was Buffy and if Gargoyles ever comes back on the air I want to see Joss write an episode... especially since he does whatever you tell him to do ;)

Okay... enough soap boxing and on to serious topics:
First off, don't ignore your Gathering Journal writing duties but it also wouldn't hurt to put a blurb or two of a review of your own into the show. And it would be nice to see some variety in the reviews... For example, one could talk about how the show had a diverse ethnic cast, one could talk about Gargoyles use of strong roles for women, one could focus specifically on "Deadly Force" and the message it tried to convey. Keep in mind this is only the FIRST season so review should not include references to things like the 3rd race, Arthur, Avalon, etc. :)
Second, shouldn't we all start pre ordering now so Amazon has this HUGE order to fill come December 7th? I think so :D

IRC Goliath - [goliath1@pacbell.net]
Friday, August 20, 2004 03:04:51 PM
IP: 209.234.142.80

Matt Fews> I'm not sure that I'm quite following what you're saying. Which torturing that Whitbourne mentioned might turn out to be a hoax? All of it? I could consider the idea that some people in Iraq may have lied or exaggerated incidents to make the occupation forces or the CPA look bad. But the idea that every act of torture at Abu Ghraib and elsewhere was part of some elaborate hoax is just beyond credebility. Yes, we've seen that the media can be manipulated in a couple of recent incidents. But that doesn't mean that this is also a case of that. The idea that something untrue would be investigated and confirmed by various respected international organizations, admitted to by the people involved, and condemned and apologized for by the US government does n't amount to a hoax. It amounts to a huge conspiracy which would only seem to hurt the people who are going along with it.

You said that you are not trying to justify these horrific actions, and I will take you at your word. But the way I read your responses, you don't seem to agree with Whitbourne's assertion that this should elicit outrage and action. You seem to say "This kind of thing happens during war." It shouldn't. There are international laws and conventions against this kind of behavior because nations have agreed it is never justifiable. You seem to imply that we shouldn't get too upset because the whole thing might be a hoax. As I made clear above, I am quite certain that it isn't. Whitbourne is saying that we all need to do something to ensure that people in positions of responsiblity who are charged with treating other human beings in a humane way according to a definite set of rules do not simply decide to look the other way and are held accountable when they do. And I fully agree.

Demonskrye
Friday, August 20, 2004 02:25:58 PM
IP: 209.150.45.114

I'm trying to get enough interest in Gargoyles on the VH1 "I Love the 90's" Forum. IF you, fellow Gagoyle Fans, were to post replies to keep it on the first page and high up on that page. Perhaps someone who works the show would take notice and put it on their second season, a "Strikes Back" or whatever.

-Gantros
Gantros
Friday, August 20, 2004 01:27:35 PM
IP: 24.20.243.55

Whit - https://www.livejournal.com/create.bml

Rant away, kiddo!

Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson - [jla@artchicks.org]
Friday, August 20, 2004 12:23:28 PM
IP: 207.178.216.226

Jen> How do you get one? I'm assuming you mean livejournal; I'm a dunce when it comes to blogging and the like.
Whitbourne
Friday, August 20, 2004 12:11:47 PM
IP: 142.177.152.159

Whitbourne, I wasn't trying to justify anything.

However, the torturing that you mentioned may be nothing more than a hoax, just like what happened to that American soldier earlier this Summer. Heck it even made the BBC news when I was visiting my Clan elders(grandparents) back in May.

Matt Fews
Friday, August 20, 2004 12:10:33 PM
IP: 206.47.191.83

Beth Maza - You, me, Greg.. his place... bring the whipped cream!! ... err... I mean... anyone for lunch? Hee hee, let me know when you will be in the So Cal area.

Wingless - Wow! Laurean and I look possessed in your pics! GO US!

Whitborne - Dude, you need an LJ.

Gorebash - Ah, sweet bribery... These are the things I love about you. ...that, and you are terminally snuggly.

Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson - [jla@artchicks.org]
Friday, August 20, 2004 12:02:27 PM
IP: 207.178.216.226

Matt, they died because we tortured them. There was nothing noble about it.

And no, it won't be over soon, unless people like us get up and do something. Please, everyone, check out groups like Amnesty Intertnational and Medicins Sans Frontieres. Donate time, money, or even just read about what's goiung on. Everyone needs to work together to stop human rights violations, the ones that happen far away and the ones that we ourselves perpetrate.

Whitbourne
Friday, August 20, 2004 11:38:08 AM
IP: 142.177.152.159

Whitbourne, I know the World can be a Scary place at times especially at War-time.

Hey, we should take heart in the fact that they died defending the country/ies that they came from and that it'll be over soon.


Matt Fews
Friday, August 20, 2004 10:51:18 AM
IP: 206.47.191.83

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From Lancet, August 19, 2004

Quote:
------------------------------------------------------------US Army investigators concluded that Abu Ghraib's medical system for detainees was inadequately staffed and equipped.8,11,13,16,17 The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) found that the medical system failed to maintain internment cards with medical information necessary to protect the detainees' health as required by the Geneva Convention; this reportedly was due to a policy of not officially processing (ie, recording their presence in the prison) new detainees.16,34 Few units in Iraq and Afghanistan complied with the Geneva obligation to provide monthly health inspections.17 The medical system also failed to assure that prisoners could request proper medical care as required by the Geneva Convention. For example, an Abu Ghraib detainee's sworn document says that a purulent hand injury caused by torture went untreated. The individual was also told by an Iraqi physician working for the US that bleeding of his ear (from a separate beating) could not be treated in a clinic; he was treated instead in a prison hallway.20

The medical system failed to establish procedures, as called for by Article 30 of the Geneva Convention, to ensure proper treatment of prisoners with disabilities. An Abu Ghraib prisoner's deposition reports the crutch that he used because of a broken leg was taken from him and his leg was beaten as he was ordered to renounce Islam. The same detainee told a guard that the prison doctor had told him to immobilise a badly injured shoulder; the guard's response was to suspend him from the shoulder.21

The medical system collaborated with designing and implementing psychologically and physically coercive interrogations. Army officials stated that a physician and a psychiatrist helped design, approve, and monitor interrogations at Abu Ghraib.15 This echoes the Secretary of Defense's 2003 memo ordering interrogators to ensure that detainees are "medically and operationally evaluated as suitable" for interrogation plans.6 In one example of a compromised medically monitored interrogation, a detainee collapsed and was apparently unconscious after a beating, medical staff revived the detainee and left, and the abuse continued.22 There are isolated reports that medical personnel directly abused detainees. Two detainees' depositions describe an incident where a doctor allowed a medically untrained guard to suture a prisoner's lacertation from being beaten.22,23

The medical system failed to accurately report illnesses and injuries.34 Abu Ghraib authorities did not notify families of deaths, sicknesses, or transfers to medical facilities as required by the Convention.34,36 A medic inserted a intravenous catheter into the corpse of a detainee who died under torture in order to create evidence that he was alive at the hospital.37 In another case, an Iraqi man, taken into custody by US soldiers was found months later by his family in an Iraqi hospital. He was comatose, had three skull fractures, a severe thumb fracture, and burns on the bottoms of his feet. An accompanying US medical report stated that heat stroke had triggered a heart attack that put him in a coma; it did not mention the injuries.38

Death certificates of detainees in Afghanistan and Iraq were falsified or their release or completion was delayed for months.24,39 Medical investigators either failed to investigate unexpected deaths of detainees in Iraq and Afghanistan or performed cursory evaluations and physicians routinely attributed detainee deaths on death certificates to heart attacks, heat stroke, or natural causes without noting the unnatural aetiology of the death.40,41 In one example, soldiers tied a beaten detainee to the top of his cell door and gagged him. The death certificate indicated that he died of "natural causes . . . during his sleep." After news media coverage, the Pentagon revised the certificate to say that the death was a "homicide" caused by "blunt force injuries and asphyxia."24

In November, 2003, Iraqi Major General Mowhoush's head was pushed into a sleeping bag while interrogators sat on his chest. He died; medics could not resuscitate him, and a surgeon stated that he died of natural causes.42 6 months later, the Pentagon released a death certificate calling the death a homicide by asphyxia.42 Medical authorities allowed misleading information released by military authorities to go unchallenged for many months.24 In 2004, the US Secretary of Defense issued a stringent policy for death investigations.43

Finally, although knowledge of torture and degrading treatment was widespread at Abu Ghraib and known to medical personnel,13,41,44 there is no report before the January 2004 Army investigation of military health personnel reporting abuse, degradation, or signs of torture.
------------------------------------------------------------
I feel betrayed. I feel like I've been slapped in the face by these pieces of human filth. These are members of my chosen profession who've spit on their oath, who've violated the trust between physician and patient, who've put their patients lives in danger and covered it up in the name of patriotism. This is a huge black stain on the honour of all doctors, everywhere. We're supposed to be better people than this.

What am I supposed to do? I'm planning on joining the Canadian forces to help pay for medical school. Does this happen here? Am I going to have to sign a waiver declaring that I won;t help abuse and torture prisoners? Am I supposed to have the BBC and Amnesty International on speed-dial so I can blow this open if I witness it? How am I supposed to feel proud about being a military doctor knowing that it can lead to this?

Last night I was enraged. This morning, my heart is broken. This afternoon, I'm signing up and joining Amnesty International to protest this, and I encourage everyone to do likewise. Find an organization that promotes and protects human rights, and support it.

Not in my name. Not in my profession's name. This has to stop. Now. We're all on a post-Gathering high, euphoric about Gargoyles and the good time we had, but there's another world out there where things like this happen, and we need to work as hard at stopping madness like this as we do at promoting the DVD.

Whitbourne
Friday, August 20, 2004 08:34:04 AM
IP: 142.177.159.114

I just posted on my Livejournal asking people to please, please post their con reports in Ask Greg. Here's hoping!
Sapphire/Kelly
Friday, August 20, 2004 04:03:31 AM
IP: 69.38.34.129

Todd - When you get a chance, what's our Journal count up to now?
Greg Weisman
Friday, August 20, 2004 03:20:59 AM
IP: 209.179.226.108

Beth - Get used to it, kiddo.

GXB - Happy B-day, dude!
Greg Weisman
Friday, August 20, 2004 02:49:58 AM
IP: 209.179.226.108

Greg Bishansky - oh, and happy belated b-day :-)
Beth Maza
Friday, August 20, 2004 02:34:07 AM
IP: 69.106.232.74

Greg Bishansky - I'm looking foward to meeting clannies who couldn't make it to G97 in Vegas. Definitely put me on the attendee list. As for how I managed 97? hahaha, I was too young and too inexperienced to know I should have been nervous :-) I had never even been to a convention before G97! I just figured it would be fun to meet up with fun folks I had been chatting with about a show I really enojoyed. I never expected it to become what it did. I also have Greg and Keith to thank. They were very kind and patient with me :-) Hope you plan to make it to Vegas and drag along the Manhattan clan while you're at it. Would love to see everyone! Cheers! PS....I really wish everyone would stop saying things like "the woman who gave birth to the gathering" Lord! that sounds attrocious! {:-)
Beth Maza
Friday, August 20, 2004 01:39:14 AM
IP: 69.106.232.74

Hi Greg W - yes, it's little me. I'm sorry I missed Montreal this year. Was planning on attending but life happened and I found myself moving across the country to California in August. But I saw the pics and talked to several people since then and heard that it was an awesome time. I hear that 2005 will be in Vegas and I am planning on attending. It will be fun to see everyone again. What projects have you been working on lately? I am a fan of your works (Gargoyles, Darkwing Duck etc) Also looking forward to the Gargoyles DVD that's coming out in Dec. Cheers!
Beth Maza - [bethmaza1997@yahoo.com]
Friday, August 20, 2004 01:26:51 AM
IP: 69.106.232.74

Have posted more GAthering 04 pictures. Still more to come-along with my journal. Wow-I'll actually write something. wont that be a shock.
Wingless - [<more gathering 04 piccys]
Friday, August 20, 2004 12:44:12 AM
IP: 69.196.243.7

Happy belated birthday Greg B, and Happy birthday (early) Todd. ;)

Now with that out of the way, if G2005 is sometime in June then there MIGHT be a chance for me to show and loose my "con virginity" since I've never been to any con before. (sad isn't it? ;))

Vertigo1
TN, USA
Thursday, August 19, 2004 11:57:29 PM
IP: 207.65.59.136

Happy birthday, Bishansky, a day late. (And tomorrow's my birthday.)

I watched "The Hound of Ulster" today (beginning the "Gargoyles" episodes that Greg Weisman hasn't rambled on yet, alas). A few thoughts on this one.

Greg mentioned once that he briefly considered a spin-off about Rory and Molly, though so briefly that he never even included it on his list of spin-offs for the Master Plan. It may be fitting, since I noticed that they (both in their ordinary identities and their "Irish myth" identities) had much larger roles than the regulars in this episode (apart from Bronx).

The writers must have been "Wizard of Oz" fans, in light of two quotes from the movie in this one.

The notion of gargoyle beasts being the inspiration for the black dogs of the folklore of the British Isles works for me; they (the black dogs) were portrayed as seemingly fearsome creatures, and yet protectors. (Greg's gotten flack for making the Hound of Ulster a gargoyle beast rather than a nickname of Cuchulain's, but it could have been worse, given his remark that he'd intended to call the gargoyle beast the "Barghest"; barghests come from the legends of northern England rather than from Ireland, and I doubt that the people who knew a lot about Irish myth and the Ulster Cycle would have let him forget it.)

The Banshee displays the customary habit of so many antagonists of "I've made up my mind about you and am not even going to consider the possibility that I might be mistaken" when she interrogates Goliath, Elisa, and Angela - the same mistake that Nokkar makes later on in the series. (Of course, I suspect that the Banshee probably wanted to torment them for fun anyway.)

Trivia note: Crom Cruach was originally a very fearsome god in ancient Ireland, so fearsome that people who worshipped him tended to come to a bad end. (No mention of his looking like a giant worm or insect larva or being an alter ego of the Banshee, however.) He finally got the worst of it after St. Patrick came to Ireland. His name was also the source of Crom, the god worshipped by Conan the Barbarian (Conan's creator, Robert E. Howard, borrowed almost all of his names for the Conan stories from real history and legend; for example, Conan's homeland, Cimmeria, was named after a mythical region of eternal darkness mentioned by Homer).

I can't help but think that Rory/Cuchulain came out a bit like an Irish version of Donald Blake/Thor from Marvel Comics; the same concept of a seemingly ordinary modern-day man being transformed by the legendary weapon of an equally legendary god or hero into that god or hero, and with the weapon changing into a stick when not in use. (When I asked Greg about it, he said that there was indeed a similarity there, and hoped to make Rory feel like less of a Mighty Thor-rip-off if he ever did more episodes of "Gargoyles".)

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, August 19, 2004 07:42:42 PM
IP: 4.244.12.5

Vash: You were the Natsilane expert during our discussions, do you recall anything about whether or not Natsilane is more title than name, and whether or not its passed by blood?

Matt: As long as BETH MAZA (you hear me Beth) shows up to the 2005 con in Vegas, yeah, I think I could swing a Talon pic. :)

Gorebash - [gorebash@s8.org]
Thursday, August 19, 2004 02:14:44 PM
IP: 192.207.57.25

Thanks Vash, yesterday was my 23rd birthday.
Greg Bishansky
Thursday, August 19, 2004 01:22:34 PM
IP: 162.84.164.187

Nick theories> So Greg confirms that the "assumption that the E&G's kid, and Nick's ancestor, are one in the same" is flawless logic...is that enough to say that it's true? So now it it simply the Natsilane connection we don't have yet?

Is Ask Greg getting shut down at the end of this month? That still gives us "last-minute" people a few weeks to submit our con reports. ;) I think we're somewhere around 35 now, at least the ones I've seen, not necessarily those that got sent to AG.

GregX> Happy birthday (unless I misread something).

Vash
Thursday, August 19, 2004 12:49:50 PM
IP: 129.98.125.57

That's Greg for you... always willing to share just enough info to send the fans speculating, and then right there to shoot them down. ;)

Have we told you lately that we love you, Greg? ;)

There are currently 110 days left until the Gargoyles DVD is released on December 7, 2004!

Patrick
Thursday, August 19, 2004 12:22:12 PM
IP: 66.93.14.153

Gorebash - Thanks a bunch. I go through the Gargoyles Fiendsite with Mozilla, now, and I can easily manage my cookies with it so I can let pretty much anything go through.
DPH
AR, USA
Thursday, August 19, 2004 12:20:17 PM
IP: 67.14.195.25

Provided, E & G don't decide to adopt, any ideas to what their baby might look like or maybe something like Delilah.
Matt Fews
Thursday, August 19, 2004 10:44:58 AM
IP: 206.47.191.83

Provided, E & G don't decide to adopt, any ideas to what their baby might look like or maybe something like Delilah.
Matt Fews
Thursday, August 19, 2004 10:44:57 AM
IP: 206.47.191.83

Yeah, I too think that would be kewl.

Gore, I would appreciate a Talon pic in the select list provided if Beth shows up of course.

Siryn, which day last week did you mail my program, because I've been checking my mailbox everyday since you made your announcement on the Tuesday after the Con ended.

Matt Fews
Thursday, August 19, 2004 10:40:19 AM
IP: 206.47.191.83

Hanging out in here a bit late, aren't you Greg? Of course I'm in New York, so who am I to talk ;)

In the mean time, I'll second Greg's request. Beth, many, many of us would love to meet the woman who gave birth to the Gatherings. If you can make it to Las Vegas next summer, it would be awesome.

I still want to know how you did it all with no staff ;)

Greg Bishansky
Thursday, August 19, 2004 03:17:09 AM
IP: 162.84.164.187

Oh, and Gore, your logic is flawless up to here:

"So if we get that far and are still on the right path... "

Then you start to go south.
Greg
Thursday, August 19, 2004 03:06:09 AM
IP: 209.178.182.13

Beth Maza - Is it really you? I keep just missing you. I do hope you come to G2005 in Las Vegas. It would be great to introduce all the relative newbies (i.e. anyone who wasn't at G1997) to the woman who started it all. They don't know it, but you're their hero.
Greg Weisman
Thursday, August 19, 2004 03:04:32 AM
IP: 209.178.182.13

Patience Beth. :) All good things... You plan attend the 2005 con, I'll rewrite the CR system to include a ton of new images, including Beth Maza. Deal?

Howdy! :)

Hey DPH, I updated the AG system to store the ppp value as a cookie. This should cover the problem with saving your posts-per-page setting. If you don't have cookies enabled... well then you're screwed (at least for now).

I've also removed unnecessary URL variables from the links generated in AG, such as the session id value, unless you don't have cookies enabled. This should make sharing links with others less of a hassle.

Gorebash - [gorebash@s8.org]
Thursday, August 19, 2004 01:16:55 AM
IP: 68.239.63.106

Hey Gorebash....how come you removed Beth Maza's image from your select list? :-p Just kidding. Just wanted to say howdy.
Beth Maza
Thursday, August 19, 2004 12:54:15 AM
IP: 69.106.232.74

Hey, Gorebash, small request: I'd like the ability to save the setting of the last x number of Greg's responses at a time, so everytime I visit on the Ask Greg Responses I don't have to click on the link to select how many posts per page. Just a small request.
DPH
AR, USA
Wednesday, August 18, 2004 10:25:48 PM
IP: 67.14.195.11

I wouldn't put it past Greg to make a comment like that just to throw us off actually.

You know, saying we were jumping to conclusion *not* because our conclusion is wrong, but because the reasoning behind it is faulty. That'd be Greg all right, messing with our words and minds for his personal delight >:)

Francois "TerraEsperZ" Ferland - [terraesperz@hotmail.com]
Quebec, Quebec, Canada
Wednesday, August 18, 2004 09:51:46 PM
IP: 24.202.8.7

*groan*

In case anyone had me on their list of "people to nag for G2004 journals" - cross me off til Friday. That's the earliest I'll have a chance to start. Between back-to-back trips - wedding, Otakon, G2004, niece's birthday, beach, prep for another wedding - as well as grad school forms and fun in traffic court, I've had barely any time to get RL affairs in order, much less post coherently in the last three weeks.

So, I start the DRAFT on Friday. Until then, I have bills to pay, an apartment to clean... and I left the laundry in the dryer downstairs. Gaaah!

*runs off*

Mandolin
Wednesday, August 18, 2004 08:33:27 PM
IP: 68.55.87.89

"Do you get the feeling that we might be a little off about when the Natsilane-Maza connection occurs?"

Oh absolutely. And don't bother with the "we". I'm the fruitcake jumping off the deep end into the abyss of endless possibilities.

Nick Maza has an ancestor born around this time (2004) who is adopted.

That's all we have that's in fact.

I believe Greg said E&G would adopt at the blue mug during the con. He's certainly eluded to it for a long time.

Now from Greg's 2198 content
(available here: http://s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=149)
we get the following:
"Nicholas Natsilane Maza is a scion of both the Natsilane and Maza families". In my gross assumptions I'm being very liberal with the word 'scion', so as to include adopted (ie non-blood) relaties.

But then you have this post from Greg:
http://s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=1522

In which he says "I don't see why ADOPTION is any less legitimate a way to share their love with a child than spitting a kid from one's combined loins." He finishes that post with: "Because the decision was not based on convenience." eluding to the adoption E&G have I believe.

So is it such a stretch to take liberties with the meaning of 'scion'?

So if E&G adopt a kid, and Nick's got an ancestor who's adopted, and Nick has at least A connection with the Gargoyles... is it so far a leap to see that we're talking about the same person?

Even Greg made a comment at the mug, something like "I know what you know" which I took to confirm at least my assumption that the E&G's kid, and Nick's ancestor, are one in the same.

So if we get that far and are still on the right path, I'm going to be curious about the origins of the kids.

I thought that Natsilane was more of a title, and one that can only be passed down by blood. But I can't find an reference to that in the AG archives, so perhaps that assumption is wrong, and that's where I start to go off track?

I dunno. It seemed to fit to me. E&G aren't going to an adoption agency. So who'd give them a kid?

And if G2198 Nick is a Maza by blood that's gotta be Beth. Unless you've got Mr. DNA (Sevarius) at work OR Elisa had a relationship with Nick or we've got Maza relatives that we've simply not heard that are at play here.

Well this will bug me for a little while now.

But those bookmarks are gonna come in handy.

Gorebash - [gorebash@s8.org]
Wednesday, August 18, 2004 08:21:58 PM
IP: 68.239.63.106

So I was reading Greg Weisman's Gathering Diary from Saturday, daytime.

Quoth Greg:

"I had a mug-a-guest next. One or two intriguing questions got asked, and I think I answered one of them, but from what I've seen posted, some conclusions were then jumped too based on facts not in evidence."

Hmmm. Do you get the feeling that we might be a little off about when the Natsilane-Maza connection occurs?

Demonskrye - [demonskrye@aol.com]
Wednesday, August 18, 2004 07:40:38 PM
IP: 209.150.45.114

I was reading the latest chapter of Greg's account of the 2004 Gathering, and, in particular, his report on the radio play version of "The Journey", complete with the cast list. I noticed that Art and Lois were both on the cast list - presumably they were among the people in the crowd whom Castaway was recruiting for Quarrymen. Which reminds me of one thing that I've regretted: the only "Gargoyles" episode done by Greg Weisman that I never taped was "The Journey". I'd decided in general not to bother with the Goliath Chronicles, to just do the first two seasons - but I still wish that I could have found a way of making an exception with "The Journey". In particular, I'd have gotten to study the recruitment scene to see how many familiar faces were in the crowd that Castaway was addressing. (I know that Vinnie was there - there's no way that we could forget him - and Billy and Susan's mother. Presumably Art and Lois were there also, in light of their appearance on the cast list. The Jogger's name shows up on the cast list, but he wouldn't necessarily be there, since he appeared in a separate scene as I recall - the bit at the beginning of the episode where he's one of a few New Yorkers being interviewed about the gargoyles.) I still think that it's a big pity that the new production team dropped the familiar faces from the group except for Castaway himself (one of the reasons why I think that the Quarrymen were such an anticlimactic group of antagonists).

Speaking of that scene, I still get a kick out of Castaway's speech because of all the ironies in it. Here, transcribed from an earlier transcription made by Patrick Toman for TGS (thanks, Patrick!) is the speech, with my comments in brackets:

I know that you are all reasonable people. But you do not live in a reasonable world. Violence, racism, injustice - you struggle with the world's problems and wind up feeling so alone.

[And this spoken while he's recruiting them for an organization based on "violence, racism, [and] injustice". Notice, also, the word "alone", and remember where we've heard that in "Gargoyles" before - in a prominent moment, that is.]

Now, something alien and horrible has entered your world. Are you afraid of this monster? Well, for once you are not alone.

[Again that word.]

Are you afraid these creatures will attack you while you sleep? You are not alone in that fear.

[And gargoyles live with the fear that humans will attack *them* in their stone sleep, which is even a greater fear; a human could wake up from his or her sleep in time, but gargoyles are stuck in stone sleep until sunset. As long as you don't make the mistake that Duncan did in "City of Stone Part Three" of deciding to go gargoyle-smashing in the late afternoon, they're sitting ducks when you show up.]

Are you afraid they will steal your children away? You are not alone.

[Remember the bit in "The Reckoning" where Demona interpreted Princess Katharine taking the eggs away as "kidnapping the clan's children"? Definite parallel here.]

Do you believe these monsters must be stopped? You are not alone! Join us. Join the Quarrymen. When you wear our hoods, believe me, you are no longer alone! Take a hood. Take a hammer. You are Quarrymen now! Join us, and I promise you will never be alone again.

[And the thing that's really chilling, again, is just how often the word "alone" comes up throughout that speech. This is perhaps one of Greg Weisman's greatest achievements in the episode. One more reason why I wish that he'd gotten to work on the entire third season.]

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, August 18, 2004 07:20:29 PM
IP: 4.244.18.118

Todd informs me that 21 of you have posted Gathering Journals over at ASK GREG.

I'm very grateful to you guys, but that's less than 14% of this year's attendance, which frankly is kinda pathetic.

Please, PLEASE, take a few minutes to write up your journals and cut and paste them at

www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/

And if you've already done it, pressure those who haven't and or spread the word.

This isn't a whim. I need the numbers to show the PTB.

Thanks.
Greg Weisman
Wednesday, August 18, 2004 04:35:33 PM
IP: 4.232.51.128

GARGOYLES IS NOW UP FOR PREORDER AT AMAZON.COM!!!

That is all I will say.

Battle Beast
CanadaWednesday, August 18, 2004 03:23:35 PM
IP: 142.59.132.116

You all ROCK!! This came for everyone from the Disney film Crew!!

We had a blast, and can't wait to share the Gathering experience with others through the documentary.

Please give our kind regards and gratitude to the rest of the gathering staff, and to the fandom at large, for being so extremely welcoming and fun to be around.

Best,

David Grabias
(for Howard and Thierry)
Anonymous
Wednesday, August 18, 2004 02:27:51 PM
IP: 172.136.153.235

Nothing much to say today except...

There are currently 111 days left until the Gargoyles DVD is released on December 7, 2004!

Patrick
Wednesday, August 18, 2004 12:32:40 PM
IP: 66.93.14.153

I failed pre-school.

Right. Definately right. Upper-right. Right. Not left. Did I mention right? It's right. Right? right.

On another note I'm trying to get my Saturday g2004 journal up today.

Gorebash - [gorebash@s8.org]
Wednesday, August 18, 2004 11:34:06 AM
IP: 192.207.57.27

Gorbash - "Just an FYI, you may notice a little icon in the upper-left of each node in Ask Greg."

Do you mean the upper-RIGHT? ;-) Or is that one of the glitches you're talking about?

Leo
Wednesday, August 18, 2004 11:23:16 AM
IP: 68.231.241.236

Just an FYI, you may notice a little icon in the upper-left of each node in Ask Greg. That is a bookmark to that specific node. You can click (or right-click) on that icon, and you will get a link to display that node, and only that node. That bookmark will work for the life of the system. It's an easy way to share particular bits of info that are located deep within the AG system and it's also an easy way to keep track of a particular question you're waiting to see the answer for.

I am always aware IE 5.0/Win users are seeing some oddity in the layout. I plan to look into this tomorrow.

Gorebash - [gorebash@s8.org]
Wednesday, August 18, 2004 12:42:37 AM
IP: 68.239.63.106

MATT - So far as I know, nothing big was revealed at the Gathering 2004 about the Gargoyles Universe (nothing on the level of Lexington being gay, at least). The release date of the Gargoyles Season One DVD was revealed, though, which is certainly something.

Jumping back to Castaway being hit by lawsuits for a moment - what would really be entertaining would be if the surviving Beatles were to sue him for trademark infringement over the "Quarrymen" name.

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, August 17, 2004 06:57:26 PM
IP: 4.245.20.88

Greg Weisman> Since I don't want to clog the "Ask Greg" pipeline with off-topic questions, how did Norman the Bassett Hound's surgery go? I hope he's doing well and goes through a swift recovery and adjustment.

I'd also like to say that I'm really enjoying the Gathering rambles (and all the fan diaries as well). I have potential homes lined up for about five Gargoyles DVDs and more are always possible. So once we have a date for a Mass Purchasing Effort, I'll be ready.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye@aol.com]
Tuesday, August 17, 2004 06:51:24 PM
IP: 209.150.45.114

She was also in "Antwone Fisher" and "Biker Boyz", but neither film gave her enough lines or screen time for my liking. She's the only reason I initially watched both of them, too. I ended up enjoying "Antwone Fisher" and watching it again, but I get on with my life just fine if I never see "Biker Boyz" again.

Brigitte Bako is another "Gargoyles" alum we really need to see get more work. I caught her by chance on an episode of "Law and Order" last season and then waited for the rerun just so I could tape it.

Patrick
Tuesday, August 17, 2004 05:41:01 PM
IP: 68.170.199.45

I dig Salli. So what's this whole "Richardson-Whitfield" business? She's got a husband? DAMN! There go my chances.

Her appearence in an episode of "The Pretender" I thought really good. And "Great White Hype" is a (not so) guilty pleasure. JRD is also in that and easily has some of the best lines ever.

JRD: "I'd rather be turked by a syphilitic bear!"
Jeff Goldblum: "Turked?"
JRD: "Rectally relieved."

Certainly not Oscar material, but his delivery in that movie kills me every time.

Gorebash - [gorebash@s8.org]
Tuesday, August 17, 2004 05:28:30 PM
IP: 192.207.57.46

My apologies to Greg. I've done some more checking around, including querying one of the big C.S.I. Miami Yahoo groups, and what Gorebash just posted is correct. It appears that I've been misled by multiple instances of incorrect info in the big archive sites (IMDB, TvTome), as well as incorrect info in my local cable TV listings (damn you, Adelphia).

Crud. So this means that if any of us want to see Salli on screen for longer than five seconds, we're going to have to go see "Anacondas: Hunt for the Blood Orchid."

Oh, the humanity!

Patrick
Tuesday, August 17, 2004 05:06:37 PM
IP: 68.170.199.45

Salli Richardson does play a character named Laura on C.S.I. But it is _definately_ not Horatio's sister-in-law. Horatio's sister-in-law is played by Sofia Milos and her character's name is Yelina Salas.

I've checked several CSI sites and they all carry this same information. Salli's character doesn't appear to have a last name.

I can only recall seeing her in two eps (although she's clearly in more) and my memory (which isn't great) definately had her playing a tech.

Gorebash - [gorebash@s8.org]
Tuesday, August 17, 2004 04:58:03 PM
IP: 192.207.57.48

Salli's IMDB profile:

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0724757/

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0724757/#guest-appearances

Though IMDB has been known to be wrong before...

Vertigo1
TN, USA
Tuesday, August 17, 2004 04:45:49 PM
IP: 65.119.228.223

Patrick, I'm sorry but whatever source you checked is wrong. The woman who plays Horatio Caine's sister-in-law is NOT Salli Richardson. I've seen her multiple times) and it's simply NOT Salli. I've also seen Salli on the show once (I'm not a regular viewer) and she played a technician. A ballistics expert, I think, though it's been awhile and I'm not sure.

In any case, she is NOT Horatio's sister-in-law. I'm quite positive.
Greg Weisman
Tuesday, August 17, 2004 02:44:44 PM
IP: 209.178.135.54

Battle Beast, JRD was also Treebeard.

A Countdown sounds kewl as I've already wrote it in my calendar.

Matt Fews
Tuesday, August 17, 2004 12:14:17 PM
IP: 206.47.191.83

whoops wrong image!

were there any big revelations at the gathering that i havn't heard about? i don't think i've heard anything really from this year...

matt
Tuesday, August 17, 2004 11:24:35 AM
IP: 216.178.8.64

we look forward to The Gathering every year and thus have a countdown every year, we've been looking forward to the DVD for ten years, so i think its just as deserving of a countdown, if not more so...
matt
Tuesday, August 17, 2004 11:23:11 AM
IP: 216.178.8.64

While on IMDB, I noticed that under the references section of "Gargoyles" that it says that there was a reference to "Gargoyles" in the Movie "The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers."

We all know that Gimli was played by JRD who played Macbeth... (or do we?) So, has anyone found this reference?

First one to find it wins a plate of cookies!

(Myself, I can't watch "Towers" untill the extended version of Return of the King comes out, as I want to have a marathon.)

That is all I will say.

Battle Beast
GO CANADA GO!!!, Canada
Tuesday, August 17, 2004 10:37:36 AM
IP: 142.59.132.116

PATRICK - More in the sense that, if it came to a lawsuit, the Illuminati could supply Castaway with legal counsel that could run rings around the Ku Klux Klan's own lawyers.

(I don't think that the Illuminati control the KKK, of course, but I'm certain that, if they wanted to, they could make things pretty uncomfortable for it.)

And it's never too early to begin a new countdown.

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, August 17, 2004 07:34:40 AM
IP: 4.244.12.68

Todd > And being in cahoots with the Illuminati would protect Castaway from a run-in with the original "boys in the hood" because...? Are we to assume that the Illuminati also controls the Ku Klux Klan?

Salli sightings > Greg, if you're out there... I have checked the C.S.I. fan sights and reconfirmed my info. Salli Richardson plays the recurring part of Laura Caine, the police detective sister-in-law of Horatio Caine (David Caruso). She does not play a C.S.I. technician, and she does use a Cuban accent.

DVD release > Is it too early to start a countdown? There are currently 112 days left until the Gargoyles DVD is released on December 7, 2004!

Patrick
Tuesday, August 17, 2004 07:25:30 AM
IP: 68.170.199.45

Just tossing out a link to the IMDB posting that got quoted in the materials Greg read off at the con. The person's username on IMDB is 2FriesShort but the materials Greg had gave the username "SportyShorty" or something similar.

There is definately a buzz about the DVD release. I've found a ton of places carrying the release date and info. I got my hopes up that this thing is going to sell really well.

Gorebash - [gorebash@s8.org]
Tuesday, August 17, 2004 02:35:22 AM
IP: 68.239.63.106

Given that Castaway is in cahoots with the Illuminati, I doubt that he'd be that worried over any lawsuits from the Ku Klux Klan.

The hoods were certainly a PR blunder, though it's possible (as Greg Weisman once pointed out when asked about it) that Castaway thought that the difference from the KKK version (the Quarryman hoods are dark blue instead of white, and shaped like executioner hoods rather than the "dunce cap" versions) might fool people. (Then again, even without the hoods, his attitude of "kill all the gargoyles mercilessly, and any human who sides with them. This is war!" would wind up alienating most of the ordinary citizens the way that they did Vinnie. Maybe that's why in the Goliath Chronicles, the Quarrymen seemed to almost all be professional hit-men; they were the only people left who wouldn't be disturbed by Castaway's attitude.)

A few more thoughts about "M.I.A." that I forgot to mention this morning.

One of my favorite lines in this episode is Goliath's remark about how "Human problems become gargoyle problems". It's still a very true line, when you examine so much that happens in the series. Such as how so many of the gargoyle problems in Scotland originated from different branches of the Scottish royal family fighting over the throne (first Constantine's family versus Kenneth's, and then Duncan's family versus Macbeth's). And even the Quarrymen ultimately stem from a human problem (Jon shooting his brother by mistake, being unable to take responsibility for it, and so deciding to blame the gargoyles instead).

The oddball side of me that comes up with all those wild creativity demons would have liked to see Bronx get loose in Trafalgar Square (the pigeon capital of London). Although I don't know if the pigeons are around in such great numbers after dark.

I watched my tape of "Grief" today. It's a slightly melancholy moment for me, since this is the last episode to date that Greg Weisman's rambled on. I hope that he finds the time to watch the remaining 22 episodes with his family and ramble on them as well soon; his remarks really reveal a lot of useful information about those stories.

I still occasionally wonder how many viewers were surprised when the Emir actually turned into an on-stage character rather than just a bit of name-dropping by Xanatos and Owen. (I know that I was.)

When Jackal was lighting all the braziers with one of his built-in laser guns, I thought, this time around, "Show-off."

This time around, I paid even closer attention to Jackal's near-obsession with Anubis (first the artistic depictions of him, then the actual jackal-god himself). In particular, when the rest of the Pack's arguing over what to do with Goliath and Co., Jackal's simply staring at a statue of Anubis and ignoring them. A very effective way of building up to perhaps his creepiest moment in the series (although it's a big question as to which was creepier, Jackal as the avatar of Anubis laying waste to everything around him, or Jackal in "The Green" fantasizing about giving Goliath a make-over....)

Speaking of the Pack's little argument, it contains what was one of my favorite bits of dialogue in the episode, when Wolf wants to kill the gargs and Elisa and Coyote points out that the trouble is that he wasn't given any instructions about what to do about them, which means that until he does get instructions, "they get to live":

WOLF: I'm giving the orders!

COYOTE: You don't qualify.

WOLF: Grrrr.....

The other amusing moments were Hyena's flirting with a still uninterested Coyote, and Hyena and Wolf's fates at Jackal's hands. (I think that the episode certainly needed those moments in view of a lot of the dark moments in it, such as the good guys getting so grotesquely aged up by Jackal, and all the damage that he was doing outside the Sphinx - coming through its eyes, no less.)

As one example of why I like Greg's rambles, Greg pointed out in his ramble for "Grief" something that I hadn't caught, but which made a lot of sense to me once I read it. Jackal, even while Anubis's avatar, shows his cunning in recognizing the need to keep the Emir from interfering with him, so he tells the man that, after he's wiped out everyone and everything on the planet, he just might reunite him with his son - which hope will hold back the Emir from using the papyrus scroll of Thoth to stop him. Pretty clever.

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Monday, August 16, 2004 07:48:16 PM
IP: 4.245.22.96

Hey everybody...
Torvik
Monday, August 16, 2004 07:28:12 PM
IP: 142.161.233.72

...
Todd Jensen
St. Louis
Monday, August 16, 2004 07:23:48 PM
IP: 4.245.22.96

That skit had me rolling in the floor. :D
Vertigo1
TN, USA
Monday, August 16, 2004 06:38:43 PM
IP: 65.119.228.240

I've pasted my Gathering journal in Ask Greg, but I put up an illustrated version on my website if people are interested. Click my name or go to http://www.ladyavalon.com/gathering/gathering01.htm
Kaylle - [kaylle@ladyavalon.com]
Columbus, OH
Monday, August 16, 2004 06:22:10 PM
IP: 70.60.3.7

I've often imagined that it wouldn't take too long before the Quarrymen found themselves dealing with the lawyers of some unhappy Klansmen who don't appreciate their unique style of wardrobe being appropriated.

If Castaway wanted to come up with a look for his group that would have mass appeal, he certainly failed miserably. There's a sizeable percentage of the general populace who wouldn't find those hoods to be very amusing. Castaway might as well have put his followers in brown shirts and given them swastika arm bands.

Patrick
Monday, August 16, 2004 05:43:10 PM
IP: 68.170.199.45

Gorebash- *laughs* Thanks. Glad you got some of it ^_^ Maybe it will be on the gargs DVD. Or maybe I can get them to send me the film of it, even if they dont include it on the DVD.
Sapphire/Kelly
Monday, August 16, 2004 01:51:12 PM
IP: 69.38.34.129

OK, Sure, their head office is in NYC, but they might have branch offices all over the world.

Who's to say how widespread Castaway's prejudice was.

Matt Fews
Monday, August 16, 2004 12:27:17 PM
IP: 206.47.191.83

MATT - Well, the Quarrymen's focus would be mainly in New York (it's where the gargoyles whose existence was confirmed live, and where the organization was set up, and Castaway might not be ready for some time to handle overseas divisions), but that is a good point. Of course, the real question is whether they might initially suspect that the shopkeepers belong to the same species as the gargoyles in New York, given the very strong difference in physiognomy between Goliath's clan (who look like "conventional" gargoyles) and the London clan (who look like heraldic animals with feathered wings). It's kind of like the question over whether a visitor from another planet would realize that a St. Bernard and a chihuahua are the same sort of animal.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Monday, August 16, 2004 09:03:14 AM
IP: 4.244.12.196

Todd, or for that matter, the Quarrymen.

They would probably want to investigate the SHOP further, if you catch my drift.

Matt Fews
Monday, August 16, 2004 07:59:13 AM
IP: 206.47.191.83

Now for my commentary/review on "M.I.A." from last night, since the room's been cleared.

I still find myself noticing little things that I'm not certain that I caught last time. For example, in the early part of the 1940 sequence, when Griff's back at the Mystic shop greeting Leo and Una and is commenting grimly about how the air raids won't go away "until the Nazis are beaten", Leo and Una look at Griff concernedly, as if to indicate their troubled feelings over his insisting on helping with the defence of the city. And when Leo eagerly greets Goliath with the words "Any friend of Griff is a friend of ours", Goliath looks at him rather sadly, as if he's pondering the fact that Leo will be giving him a far less friendly response over fifty years later.

I've sometimes wondered a little about that World War II memorial to Goliath and Griff, and wouldn't mind seeing a little more about it if the series were to return. What I'd really like to know is what sort of response it got from the Londoners when it was raised, since almost everyone in the city would believe that gargoyles were mythical creatures. I can just see somebody commenting, "What's next? A First World War monument to the Angels of Mons?"

Another part of the episode that I really like is the way that it showed Goliath's desperation to save Griff that even gets through into a few of his comments that puzzle the 1940 gargoyles, such as, after Griff saves Goliath's life for the first time, "It was supposed to be the other way around", or when Goliath tells Una, "I will not let anything happen to him this time", and Una says in bewilderment, "This time?"

This is the final time loop in the series (though I suspect that we'd have gotten more if Greg Weisman had made the "Timedancer" spin-off), and one that I enjoyed along with the ones from "Vows" and "Avalon Part Two". It shows once again that, in the Gargoyles Universe, time travelers don't change history; they were part of the very history before them all along. A concept that I really like.

Some other elements that stand out to me:

The inclusion of Douglas Bader as one of the characters in 1940 (though I didn't know about him until Stormy brought it up here several years ago - in 1997, I believe). I especially liked the fact that he was another human who could accept gargoyles (cf. his remark "They're real - and they're on our side!" and where he and Griff exchange thumbs up after Bader saves the gargs from the German pilot).

Leo and Una's response to Goliath disappearing with the Phoenix Gate still strikes me as astonishingly calm, under the circumstances (Leo simply stares at the empty space that Goliath had vacated a little closer - I'd be doing a lot more than that, believe me, if somebody were to suddenly disappear in front of me in a burst of "Phoenix Flame"). I guess that you get used to those things when you're working in a magic shop.

The London gargs show how Anglicized they've become in both being shopkeepers (I wonder if Napoleon realized that it wasn't just the English humans who followed that occupation) and in drinking tea (I liked Una's apology to Goliath about not being able to offer him sugar because of the wartime rationing).

Good thing that the guy passing Goliath and Griff in the present was so engrossed in his Game Boy that he didn't look up.

All in all, a really fun episode (though I do recall, the first time that I saw it, being a bit disappointed that they didn't include a "1940" caption for the time travel sequence).

Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Monday, August 16, 2004 07:29:49 AM
IP: 4.244.12.157

Sapphire: I missed the first third of the the skit while I moved to a better location for filming. But I put together what I have and tried to fill in the missing piece.

It's available in the normal place (or by clicking my name).

Gorebash - [gorebash@s8.org]
Monday, August 16, 2004 03:47:57 AM
IP: 68.239.63.106

It never ceases to amaze me how people will spam a forum with posts just because it's been wiped. Especially when they have nothing to contribute. Ahh well, I suppose I can't complain, since it's not my forum :P // GOREBASH - you dont happen to have a video of the skit julie and I did, do you? The gargs opening theme? Oh please?
Sapphire
Monday, August 16, 2004 01:49:00 AM
IP: 69.38.34.129

Er, 7th actually...
Rac
Monday, August 16, 2004 01:34:10 AM
IP: 24.194.35.147

Gathering has come and gone? Looks like I have some reading to catch up on...

And coming back to claim 6th.

Rac
Troy, NY, USA
Monday, August 16, 2004 01:33:43 AM
IP: 24.194.35.147

I Know I don't post here but once a year, but there was a requst for Gathering photos and I just finnished updating my. So Enjoy
Revel - [<------Gathering Photos!]
Monday, August 16, 2004 01:32:54 AM
IP: 68.119.237.207

5th!
Vertigo1
TN, USA
Monday, August 16, 2004 01:21:11 AM
IP: 207.65.59.170

4th. Whee!
Jimmy
Monday, August 16, 2004 12:53:28 AM
IP: 140.247.151.73

3rd. Go me :)
Chameleon
Monday, August 16, 2004 12:28:33 AM
IP: 203.221.144.130

I always liked the Number 2!!
dph
ar, usa
Monday, August 16, 2004 12:26:30 AM
IP: 67.14.195.14

1st!
The Sadistic Cow - [funkadelic_gnome@hotmail.com]
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Monday, August 16, 2004 12:20:03 AM
IP: 69.157.10.116