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Gargoyles

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Comments for the week ending December 26, 2005

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Hope everyone survived Christmas, and a Happy Chanukkah to our Jewish friends.
JJ Gregarius
Like the man said, "There are no problems; only solutions!"

Merry Christmas one and all!!!!! I got one of the two things I wanted, A necklace shaped like Birdy me. Didn't get Gargoyles though. Rassum frassum. Merry Christmas!!!!!!!!!!!
Phoenyx

I hope everyone had a Merry Christmas like I did.
Paul Cousins

Merry christmas everyone!

I finally got my DVD today. Has anyone else noticed just how many errors are in the closed captoining? I'm up to "Vows" and I've already noticed at least a dozen.

Spen
"Alas... the fleeting years slip by." - Horace, 23 B.C

MERRY CHRISTMAS, STATION 8!!

*launches into "Hark, the Herald Angels Sing."*

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"And to all a good bite...er, night!"

Merry Chrismahanakwanzaka everyone

I got a few things i wanted: PSP, copies of Dukes of Hazzard and 40 Year-Old-Virgin, etc.
For Chrismahanakwanzaka, i tried to put reindeer antlers on my dog along with a warm swearshirt. The result was a bite on my arm, ouch!

Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1@sbcglobal.net]
"One must do what one has.......I suppose"

Merry Christmas to all.

Not only did I get Gargoyles Season 2, Volume 1 DVD today, but I also got several issues of the old Marvel Gargs comics. :)

Go me.

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582@hotmail.com]

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays, everyone!

I didn't put reindeer antlers on my cat, but we did give him a wicked Harley Davidson, studded collar. Muahaha.

The Sadistic Cow
Constant vigilance!

Meh heh heh, I made a picture of Bronx wearing reindeer antlers ;): http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/26308779/
Merry Christmas! And Happy Chanukah to my fellow Jewish peeps out there! :D

Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn@aol.com]

Merry Christmas, everybody!

And to all of you with dogs, cats, or gargoyle beasts at home, please do not humiliate them by making them wear fake reindeer antlers. (Mind you, I don't think that anybody would even try to get Bronx to wear fake reindeer antlers....)

Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

Merry Christmas Everyone!
Chameleongirl

Of all the shows, both live and animated, Gargoyles has by far made the largest impression on my life and my being. Those who view it as a simple cartoon are sadly mistaken. This was, and is, a reality unto it's own.
Slate
What humans do not understand, they fear

I enjoy the sereies i grew up watching gargoyles and cant wait till the second season volume two will come out and if any one knows let me know so i can save my money it probably wont be for another year but i would like some heads up on when to look for it.

i wish the series could have gone on i was sad when it ended i wonder if it will ever be made into a movie like the marvles??
if not i still love the sereis and the story i also like reading the fan fiction seeing how others saw the story going and other twists.
the sereis just excites me so much i dont like to stop talking about it i'm sorry for rambling...

Brooke Burdette - [brookeburdette@yahoo.com]
Brooke Ann Burdette

We just watched Avalon as a Christmas Eve present- or something. Nothing really to say, just popping in. Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night!
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
"Rumors circulate among the cucumbers." -From E.V.O.: The Search for Eden

Todd: Don't forget that magic spells are quite literal. Remember the Cauldron of Life and Owen's fist? "And both shall life until one destroys the other. Only then will both truely perish." I believe that is the last term of the spell placed upon them by the sisters. Following that, you can literally interpret that it would require DIRECT combat. If it didn't, then why couldn't Demona have just rigged Macbeth's residence with explosives in "Sanctuary" and blown him to pieces? Hell, she could've even released some VX instead. That would've ruined Macbeth's day for sure.

As for her turning human at day, it still wouldn't matter. Even IF we didn't take the spell literally, and it would kill them both, she'd still die at night since she would be there at the source.

To be honest, Demona may be emotional at times, but she's no fool. Killing herself wouldn't do her any good. She obviously thought this through, and dying before she could "take her rightful place" wouldn't be an acceptable goal for her. IIRC, even Greg mentioned that the virus wouldn't have finished her and Macbeth off for good. At any rate, its obviously a gamble that she obviously wanted to chance.

Vertigo1 - [md2389@gmail.com]
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage (Mythbusters)

KRIS> No, they have to die by each other's hand.

If the virus killed them both, it would be temporary. Both were dead when Canmore stabbed Macbeth

Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2006]
"A haiku is kind of like a regular poem, except it doesn't rhyme, and it's completely stupid." - Mr. Garrison

If the virus DID effect both Demona and Macbeth, wouldn't they certainly both die once sunrise comes and she turns human? 'Cause then they're both human, both vulnerable, and both could be killed by it at the same time...making it a permanent death for both, no?
Kris - [plekopleko@hotmail.com]

BISHANSKY - Thanks for pointing that out to me. I'll have to fix it if I get to do revisions for the reviews (though not for quite a while, mind you).

I was watching "Leader of the Pack" on DVD this afternoon (I also watched "Legion" after it - I'd already seen "Metamorphosis" a few days before - but that's another story), and was suddenly startled when Hyena, after "Xanatos" removed his helmet, commented, "And you say there's no Santa Claus!" I'd honestly forgotten about that line, and yet, without having it in mind at all, was playing that episode on Christmas Eve. Truly bizarre.

One odd little thought: here's another possible way in which Demona and Macbeth might have died if Demona had unleashed that virus. The virus not only wipes out the humans, but also finds its way to Avalon and wipes out the Third Race there as well, including the Weird Sisters. When the Sisters die, their spell is dissolved and both Macbeth and Demona rapidly age over nine hundred years and collapse into dust. (Of course, we don't know if the magical link between them is dependent on the Sisters' continued existence.)

Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

Does the spell the Weird Sisters cast on Macbeth and Demona consider semantics, or does the "until one destroys the other" part require direct action? That's a question we don't really have an answer for. If Macbeth released the parking brake on a truck, and Demona was standing at the bottom of the hill that it happens to roll down... does that count? In a court of law, it would yield a conviction for murder... but magic spells are often trickier.

Gathering 2006 Update: Thom Adcox, Ed Asner, Greg Guler, Carl Johnson, Frank Paur, and Michael Reaves... all six join Greg Weisman on the guest list! Also, a selection of link banners are now available for fans who want to help promote the convention on the web sites and blogs! Please see our web site (click below) for details. :)

7 days left to pre-register for The Gathering 2006 before the rates increase.

Patrick
"X-mas is supposed to be about bringing people together, not blowing them apart." - Frye, "Futurama"

Good review Todd. Just one minor nit. In your notes for part 3, you mispell the 'John' in 'John Castaway'. Even his first name was slightly altered for his alias. So it's:

Jon Canmore
John Castaway

Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2006]
"A haiku is kind of like a regular poem, except it doesn't rhyme, and it's completely stupid." - Mr. Garrison

Since Demona was the one who released the virus, I think that it could be argued that she's the one who kills Macbeth. Though it'd certainly be a tricky subject.

(Of course, if Macbeth survives, then Demona hasn't completely succeeded in wiping out the human race - though it would now be permanently reduced to just one member. And she'd probably have him coming after her all over again.)

Thanks about the reviews, Guandalug. I'm certainly looking forward to seeing what people will be saying about them, in light of the recent "Hunter's Moon"-related discussion here.

Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

An early Christmas present just arrived at the GFW - courtesy of Todd Jensen: The reviews of the season's final of Season 2: Hunters moon

Once more, thank you very much for all this efforts, Todd - your reviews are highly appreciated and already are a valuable addition to the GFW, being as well-researched as they are. Your reviews helped to 'correct' the sometimes one-sided view on certain episodes by completing or counter-pointing the already available reviews.

And now, may you all have a merry Christmas, winter solstice or whatever else you decide to celebrate the coming days. I'll be out of town for a few days, so changes on the GFW will have to wait 'till I'm back :)

Guandalug la'Fay - [guandalug@gargoyles-fans.org]
It has been said that the world is a strange place. This is not true. The world is a VERY strange place.

If I remember correctly, in that senario it would have been the VIRUS that would have "killed" her and Macbeth. It wouldn't have been her killing him directly, so she would still survive. HOWEVER, depending on how long the virus would survive, it would make for a rather painful period for her seeing as it would kill Macbeth over and over again.
Vertigo1 - [md2389@gmail.com]
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage (Mythbusters)

TO EVERYONE AND ALL, MERRY CHRISTMAS, HAPPY CHRISTMAS OR HAPPY CHANUKAH AND A VERY HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

... Just to fix the URL in my name.
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2006]
"A haiku is kind of like a regular poem, except it doesn't rhyme, and it's completely stupid." - Mr. Garrison

To be quite honest, I don't think Demona was thinking chiefly of her own fate during "Hunter's Moon".

THe phrase, "Let the chips fall where they may" seems to apply.

Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2006]
"A haiku is kind of like a regular poem, except it doesn't rhyme, and it's completely stupid." - Mr. Garrison

Would it actually have made that much difference to Demona if she knew that wiping out the human race would bring about her own death (thanks to her link to Macbeth)? In light of her fanatical hatred for the species, I suspect that she wouldn't mind dying if she knew that she was taking every last human on the planet with her. (Call it the "kamikaze spirit".)

Besides, though I don't know whether that would occur to her consciously, it would save her the problem of finding something to do with her life once all the humans were gone; after a thousand years of hating them and plotting their destruction, if the entire race were to disappear, Demona would be left with needing to find a new goal in a hurry, with a sense of emptiness over "Now what do I do?" (Not to mention - although I think that Demona would only be aware of this deep, deep down inside, if at all - that with all the humans gone, Demona will have destroyed the big scapegoat in her life, the thing to blame all of her miseries upon. After that, she might finally be forced to realize that she's the one most responsible for her plight.) Dying alongside the humans would mean that she wouldn't have to face that problem.

Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

hahaha, Ed.

well everyone, i'm gone for a few days for the whole family thing. doubt i'll be online til Sunday night or Monday when i get back...

to those who celebrate Christmas, Merry Christmas, to everyone else Happy Holidays, and if you don't celebrate any particular holiday this time of year then have a good weekend. enjoy every day!

matt - [ewoks11@hotmail.com]
"Breath deep, seek peace." -James Gourney, Dinotopia

My bet is it involves some kind of pyramid selling scheme.
Ed

ummm, they all did work for Gargoyles maybe?
matt - [ewoks11@hotmail.com]
"To know that we know what we know, and that we do not know what we do not know, that is true knowledge." -Henry David Thoreau

Kyt > Speaking of that... ;)

Thom Adcox, Ed Asner, Greg Guler, Carl Johnson, Frank Paur, and Michael Reaves. What do they all have in common? You'll find out soon in the next big announcement from The Gathering 2006 staff. :)

8 days left to pre-register for The Gathering 2006 before the rates increase.

Patrick
"Bender, won't you join my slaying tonight?" - Evil Robot Santa, "Futurama"

good points, particularly about trusting Thailog. i still can't believe that she was really thinking Goliath would applaud her decision though. she may be attracted to Goliath, but she knows how he feels about the humans and even if he might be starting to revise his thinking on humans, he could still be a threat to her plan. why would she take that risk?
matt - [ewoks11@hotmail.com]
"To know that we know what we know, and that we do not know what we do not know, that is true knowledge." -Henry David Thoreau

And don't forget, Demona trusted Thailog. Certainly enough to tell him how he could easily dispose of both her and Macbeth.

That was a definite case of her letting lust and passion override her brain.

Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2006]
"A haiku is kind of like a regular poem, except it doesn't rhyme, and it's completely stupid." - Mr. Garrison

I never said Demona was stupid, she is very intelligent. But she can and has let her passions over rule her brain at times. And Goliath is still someone she has a lot of unresolved emotions for (though I'm sure she'd be the first to deny that). I'm not saying his behavior just impressed her, I'm saying it turned her on.

It seems to me like you're trying to apply logic to someone who is already not the most stable and rational of people. Humans (and gargoyles) are illogical creatures.

Really, she is such a fascinating character. I had a lot of fun getting inside her head when I wrote for her. All of her passions, contradictions, rationalizations.

Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2006]
"A haiku is kind of like a regular poem, except it doesn't rhyme, and it's completely stupid." - Mr. Garrison

Demona isn't stupid, and don't forget she has specifically said that she trusts no one. even if she was beginning to think Goliath was starting to turn to her side of things, she'd have been a fool to trust him at that moment. why would she throw away centuries of planning on the possibility that Goliath might support her at that moment.
doesn't seem too realisitic to me that after all that passed between Demona and Goliath she would give him the oppurtunity to stop her plan just cuz Goliath turned her on a little bit the night before.
and on that note, i agree with you that fighting besides Goliath again, watching him "kill" one of the Hunters, and hearing him talk about vengence must've really impressed Demona, and yes, attracted her to him, but theres no way she suddenly trusts him, not a chance. she didn't trust him in 994 and she only has less reason to trust him now.

matt - [ewoks11@hotmail.com]
"To know that we know what we know, and that we do not know what we do not know, that is true knowledge." -Henry David Thoreau

MATT> Like Greg said, "maybe it was a risk she was willing, maybe even eager to take. Maybe underneath it all, she is a bit suicidal."

But yeah, I think after 900+ years, Demona would be more than aware of how her link would Macbeth worked. Like Greg said, it would depend on her intent. Magic is not an exact science afterall.

And, assuming the plague isn't perceived as her killing Macbeth, then yes, the plague would kill Demona in her human form, only for her to revive and for it to kill her again, over and over till sunset. Wheras for Macbeth, it would be killing him over and over again, all day and night for the rest of eternity, probably incapacitating him.

It was a risk. And I doubt she was getting "last minute jitters", I think she really began to think Goliath was finally coming around to her way of thinking.

"There's no such thing as a little vengeance."
"At last, you're thinking like a true gargoyle"
Followed later by...
"You did well, Goliath. Perhaps you and I are not so different after all."
"Perhaps not."

Listen to the way Marina delivers that line. She sounded a touch... giddy. Like I said, the whole incident on the airship, watching him "seemingly" kill one of the Hunters with her probably turned her on.

Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2006]
"A haiku is kind of like a regular poem, except it doesn't rhyme, and it's completely stupid." - Mr. Garrison

One thing that I'd like to add. At the point when Demona was about to unleash her virus, the existence of gargoyles had been publicly revealed to the world - and in a "worst case scenario" fashion, in a manner that presented them as dangerous, destructive monsters. There was an angry mob outside the cathedral at that moment, howling for the gargoyles' blood. I don't know how aware of the situation Demona was, but if she did know about it, she'd probably have taken the attitude that, with a situation like this, Goliath would *have* to accept her goals now and let her wipe out humanity. If he thwarted her, he'd be condemning himself and his clan - and every other gargoyle clan on the planet, as well - to death at human hands (and not a very pretty death, either, since I suspect that a lot of gargoyles would be taken alive for vivisection). It obviously helped that, as Bishansky points out, what Demona had seen of Goliath's behavior on the Hunters' airship must have convinced her that he was coming around to her way of thinking at last (indeed, I can't help but wonder if Goliath would have set out to stop Demona if Elisa had indeed died at the dam - though I won't pursue this one too far because of the nature of hypotheticals), but I think that just as big a factor here was the fact that, judging from the situation outside, now Demona *had* to wipe out humanity as the one sure-fire way to prevent the extinction of her species. (Of course, it's arguable that all of those dead humans would have made the planet uninhabitable for the gargoyles once they began to decompose, but that's another "if" that we don't know anything about.)

This, incidentally, is why I find Goliath smashing the Praying Gargoyle a particularly impressive and heroic action. By doing so, he was potentially sacrificing his species to save the humans. Now, if Demona unleashes her virus, both the humans and the gargoyles will die, while if she doesn't unleash it, the angry humans will hunt the gargoyles down and could wind up "finishing the job". (We know, of course, that humanity ends up making some sort of peace with the gargoyles by 2198, but Goliath obviously couldn't have known that.)

I can't help but suspect that the next time that Demona had encountered the clan after "Hunter's Moon", in a series done right (as opposed to the Goliath Chronicles way), she'd have told Goliath that the Quarrymen movement was all his fault: "If you hadn't stopped me from sending out my plague upon the humans, they wouldn't be hunting us down now." (Of course, she'd also be blaming Castaway for the Quarrymen - and with far more justice.)

I've got to admit that I find the topic of this particular conversation all the more interesting, since I've just been (in the last couple of days or so) writing up my commentary on "Hunter's Moon" for the GFW, though I'm still only on Part Two. This is giving me plenty to think about when I reach Part Three.

Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

yeah, we know that the Macbeth thing would depend on her intent (whatever that means) because Greg told us so... but did Demona know that? maybe she did have some hesitation about it. was she willing to sacrifice her own life for this cause of hers?

i don't know. its a good question. if Demona could destroy all the humans in the world and leave the world for Gargoyles to inherit as their own, but it would mean sacrificing her own life... would she do it? maybe thats one of the curses of her link to Macbeth. maybe the point there is that to commit herself to the destruction of that which she hates most means to destroy her own life.

and for the record, i don't see how she could have smashed that vial and survived. first off she is literally killing the humans, which means killing Macbeth which means she would die with him. secondly, it is possible that the next morning when she became human she could potentially have contracted the virus. thirdly, if she had destroyed humanity and thus killed Elisa, i FIRMLY believe that would have been the last straw for Goliath. he would have killed her.
how Demona can overlook all this is hard to believe. she had to know that one way or another she was going to die if she released that virus. perhaps her stalling for Goliath was last minute jitters.

matt - [ewoks11@hotmail.com]
"To know that we know what we know, and that we do not know what we do not know, that is true knowledge." -Henry David Thoreau

Well, on the second one. The whole Macbeth connection would depend on her intent. I was the first person to Ask Greg about it way, way, way back in 1997 or 98... right here...

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=489

I mean, I kinda like my theory, because we know that on some level, Demona still wants Goliath. She was attracted to Thailog because she thought he was the Goliath she always wanted.

And don't worry, not going to tear your theories apart, I've been making a real effort to be a friendlier person ;)

Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2006]
"A haiku is kind of like a regular poem, except it doesn't rhyme, and it's completely stupid." - Mr. Garrison

Greg B> maybe Demona was just trying to gloat and brag to Goliath and Clan that she thought of a nifty way to kill all the humans but with a minimum of effort from her and no damage to any of the world's gargoyles. she seemed pretty proud of herself in that scene.
or maybe part of her hesitated because she suddenly realized she wasn't sure what would happen to her because of the Macbeth connection and her becoming human during the day.
or MAYBE the Praying Gargoyle wasn't entirely on Demona's side... maybe for some reason it influenced her to give Goliath an oppurtunity to save the day. afterall, Greg once said the purpose of the Praying Gargoyle was to 'protect the protectors". clearly Demona was no longer a protector, clearly Goliath is. maybe the Praying Gargoyle realized it needed humans to protect the Gargoyles later on, like when the Space Spawn arrive.
*shrugs* just guesses, feel free to tear these ideas apart.

matt - [ewoks11@hotmail.com]
"To know that we know what we know, and that we do not know what we do not know, that is true knowledge." -Henry David Thoreau

"Monsters" not one of my favorites either. But yeah, I'll add to the chorus. Sevarius was a lot of fun in this episode.

On a different note, in "Hunter's Moon Part Three", how many of you wonder why Demona just pointed out the Praying Gargoyle to Goliath, giving him an opening to destroy it, and foil her plan?

I've heard a lot of theories. Subconscious desire to be defeated, blah, blah, blah. But I think there was something else going on there.

Perhaps Demona was beginning to think Goliath was coming around to her way of thinking. The last time she saw him before St. Damien's Cathedral, he was going on about how badly he wanted vengeance, he didn't disagree when she said "at last you're thinking like a true gargoyle." And "Perhaps you and I are not so different afterall.

Hell, it probably turned her on to see Goliath seemingly kill Robyn when they threw the two Hunters against the wall (and they seemingly got electrocuted).

Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2006]
"A haiku is kind of like a regular poem, except it doesn't rhyme, and it's completely stupid." - Mr. Garrison

Though I doubt that Sevarius was plotting to have Angela eaten by Nessie when he put her in the grotto. It would be too much of a waste, given how rare gargoyles are - even if he had extracted a few cells from her - and Xanatos (whom Sevarius was working for at the time) would certainly not have approved of such extravagance, feeding a gargoyle to a Loch Ness Monster when some ordinary everyday fish would have done just as well. Xanatos and Sevarius belong to the school of thought of "Kill the gargoyles only if there's no other choice; they're far more useful alive than dead."
Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

re: "Monsters":

Three words...

"Angela in chains."

That's enough for me. **Grins**

Kythera of Anevern - [kythera(at)gmail.com]
"Live for glory, strength and fury; play your part in the greater scheme of life and nature"

Was Angela's behavior in "Monsters" sappy and a bit naive? Yes. Was it out of character for her? I don't think so. And it's not as though it was allowed to pass without that wonderful quip from Sevarius. In the overall scheme of things, Angela befriending Nessie instead of being eaten by the monster wasn't terribly unexpected. Setting up an overly complicated scene in which to have the good guy meet an untimely end is one of the classic villian blunders. "You persist in defying my attempts to plan an amusing death for you," as one of the James Bond villians once said.

9 days left to pre-register for The Gathering 2006 before the rates increase.

Patrick
"You'll shoot your eye out, kid." - Santa Claus, "A Christmas Story"

*Walks in, shouting like a newspaper salesboy*
NEWS, Hot from the webmaster......
We've got something new, and it ain't from Todd Jensen......
New Poem available....
read for yourself ....
Only 1 click away......
*walks out again, still shouting*

Guandalug la'Fay - [guandalug@gargoyles-fans.org]
It has been said that the world is a strange place. This is not true. The world is a VERY strange place.

BISHANSKY - Thanks for the link. I wonder what Demona would do if somebody suggested to her, to her face, that her own name was idiotic (I don't think that it is, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was somebody out there, somewhere, who thought that it did) and whether she'd do it with her claws, a mace, or her laser cannon. :)

I watched "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time" last night on my DVD. One neat thing about the clearer picture on the DVDs is noticing little details in the animation that I hadn't seen before. Two in particular were the title of the book that Jeffrey Robbins shows Hudson ("Gilgamesh the King"), and that, when we see the first Scroll of Merlin unrolled, there's what looks like a small Celtic cross at the very top.

One of the big problems that I always had with "Vendettas" was that Hakon's attack on Goliath and Hudson felt too anticlimactic after "Shadows of the Past"; instead of slowly breaking Goliath down with all of those illusions and preying upon his troubled feelings about the Wyvern Massacre, he's just going for a straightforward "brute force" attack. (He briefly deludes Hudson into mistaking Goliath for Wolf, but there's not as much drama in it as there was when he deluded Goliath into mistaking Elisa and Angela for Hakon and the Captain.) Though, given that it was Wolf he was partnered with, he probably had to stick to plans that Wolf would understand....

Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

Spen> "2. Only stegasaurs had brains the size of a walnut. Most dinosaurs, while having small brains by human standards, had substantily larger brains."
thats not true. some species of dinosaur had brains that were just as small or smaller than those in the stegosaur family, some had brains larger than a human brain, though smaller in relation to body size.
really, when it comes to brains, size isn't everything. Neanderthal had a bigger brain than Homo sapiens, that doesn't make him "smarter". when it comes to what humans define as intelligence, its not about brain size, its about brain sophistication. don't be so quick to judge species with smaller brains as stupid. the stegosaur family survived for over 100 million years, so obviously they were smart enough to get by. meanwhile, Homo sapiens has been around only a half million years or so and we are destroying the planet and killing ourselves, who is smarter?
and for the record, plesiosaurs had bigger brains than walnuts. most dinosaurs also had brains substantially larger than a walnut, i don't know where you people are getting your information.

Vendettas> if this episode had featured the Mace of Hakon used to destroy the Clan instead of the Axe and had made the attempt to be more Hudson oriented (like "Long Way to Morning") it would have been a great episode. seeing Hudson reactions to the massacre and his feelings towards Hakon would have shown that vendettas go both ways sometimes. it would have been great, as it was, it is probably the most boring episode in the first two seasons IMHO, though "The Cage" can be slow too due to the flashbacks...

Monsters> besides the animation problems, my only real issue with this ep is Angela's interactions with the LNMonsters... if they had taken out all that junk, this ep would be fine.

matt - [ewoks11@hotmail.com]
"To know that we know what we know, and that we do not know what we do not know, that is true knowledge." -Henry David Thoreau

I never thought I'd have to advise someone else not to feed a troll. Unless this visitor was too articulate to count as one?


Yeah, looking back, I would have to agree that "Monsters" really didn't measure up to just about every other World Tour episode. Usually when the animation was okay, the story was at least good (such as in "The Mirror"). One thing I did like about "Vendettas," though, is that I once asked why Wolf didn't just allow Hakon to possess him, since while Hakon was a part of him, Wolf seemed to be holding his own against Goliath and Hudson. What I've come up with is that Wolf probably considered such a thing to be a blow to his pride. Sure, he wound up losing, but at least Wolf refusing Hakon's help (and thus his best chance of winning) was remaining loyal to Wolf's character.

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"Praise be to the distant sister sun! Joyful as the silver planets run!" -Belated Winter Solstice greeting.

I'll agree "Monsters" was a real dud, and one of only two canon (non-TGC) episodes that I actively dislike ("Vendettas" being the other). Yes, Angela seemed pretty silly and the monsters were riculously cute and friendly. The explanation that they were friendly to Angela because of a gargoyle clan that protects the monsters makes sense, but it doesn't really do it for me, because within the episode there's nothing to explain why things happen the way they do. You shouldn't need to read Ask Greg to appreciate an episode. Moreover, the themes are very generic. Look at the title: "Monsters." And Angela shouts that "You're the only monster here!" to Sevarius. So, what, you shouldn't judge by appearances? Hadn't that point been made throughout the series? I hardly think we needed a whole episode focusing just on that. Bad animation made it even worse. I liked Sevarius in it, and it gave Angela some important information. As a whole, though, it left me cold. It did represent one turning point in my understanding of the show: At the beginning of the episode, I thought the monsters would all be fake, while my brother said they would be real, or at least some of them. At the end of the episode, I realized for the first time that any time they introduced a myth, there would be something to it- it would not be entirely made up. Or, to put it another way, "All things are true."
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
"Rumors circulate among the cucumbers." -From E.V.O.: The Search for Eden

Um, yay?
Greg Bishansky

I THINK ARTEMIS FOWL WAS THE BEST BOOK EVER I'VE READ ALL OF THEM ECEPT THE LAST ONE I CANT WAIT FOR THE NEXT ONE AND AMAGINE HOLLY SHORT NECKADE .
ARTEMIS FOWL
ARTEMIS FOWL

"Monsters" : I'd say that the reason I don't really like the ep has absolutly nothing to do with sub-standerd animation. (Heck, I'm a huge Rocky & Bullwinkle fan. That should prove I couldn't care less about animation quality. In my opinian that's just icing on the cake.) The main reasons I didn't like it was because a.) Angela seemed to go from having the mentality of a twenty-somthing garg to a five-somthing garg and b.) the Lock Ness monsters themselves were a little to "cute lovable animal" for my liking. IMHO the main saving grace of the ep that makes it worth re-watching is Sevarius.

Patrick : "as the plesiosaurs were carnivores and (like most dinosaurs) had brains about the the size of a walnut"
1. Plesiosaurs are not dinosours, though they're relatives.
2. Only stegasaurs had brains the size of a walnut. Most dinosaurs, while having small brains by human standards, had substantily larger brains.
3. Carnivores typically have larger brains then herbivores. Mainly because it takes more brain power to hunt and kill for food instead of munching on whatever plant is nearby.

Spen
"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana." - Groucho Marx

TODD> Here's Greg's post on the subect.

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=1921

Greg Bishansky

DEMONSKRYE - I was thinking at the time of a passage that I'd read in Peter Dickinson's "The Flight of Dragons" near the beginning, where he commented, "However strange the life-form a species may adopt, it all centres round a particular specialization. Once the creature has, so to speak, decided to get its living in one particular way, everything about it must be an inevitable aspect of that one process." (p. 16). Dickinson went on from there to build up a depiction of how dragons might have existed, based on the notion that they were living blimps with lighter-than-air gas in them, which allowed them to fly, and with everything else about dragons connected to that (their fiery breath, for example, was a way of burning off the excess gases). I was being guided by that passage when I made my comment about gargoyles this morning.

BISHANSKY - That must have been one passage that I've missed in "Ask Greg" (unless it was something that Greg revealed at one of the Gatherings rather than at "Ask Greg"). At any rate, thanks for telling me about it. (And I should have known that you'd be so quick to read a commentary on any episode prominently featuring Demona.)

GOREBASH - Thanks for offering to look into that problem. I hope that we can see the new method for reviewing questions finally put into place soon.

Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

Happy Winter Solstice everyone. The day I like to consider a day of celebration for the Gargoyles-being the longest night of the year-and thus the longest time the gargs get to spend awake during the year. Being it also falls so close to Christmas, it creates a nice bond to celebrate the season together. Now if only we humans could get over this "we have to band Christmas from schools so not to snub everyone else" holidays. Let's learn about everyone's holidays. Celebrate whatever one you want, just don't deny one over the other. "Humans fear what they do not understand" how are we going to ever understand if we don't ever start to learn-and learn without bias or prejudice? hmm, okay, this wasn't supposed to turn into a rant, strange where one's fingers take them.
*leaves hugs and handshakes for all his Garg friends* Happy winter Solstice...if you chose to celebrate it, that is ^_~

Wingless

Todd: I'll take a look at the logs and see what's up. I'm taking the week between Christmas and New Years off so I'll finally have some time to work on AG.
Gorebash - [gorebash@s8.org]

Patrick> yes, you are right. i agree. i thought i explained that, but you did so much more clearly, thanks.

Polar Circles Problems> the issue wouldn't just be the need for solar energy, it would also cause severe problems with their need to sleep probably. lack of energy from sunlight could probably be compensated by more food, but i don't know how a gargoyle could survive being awake without sleep for weeks or more.

Gargoyle Biology/Evolution> i have always theorized that the Gargates branched off from the Synapsids, the mammal-like reptiles, sometime in the late Paleozoic. the most famous synapsid is probably Dimetrodon, one of the many sailed-back synapsids. they probably used this sail in temperature and energy regulation, which sounds like a precursor for stone sleep. furthermore, synapsids show the mix of mammal and reptile traits we see in the Gargates. they sometimes have fur and are warm-blooded, but lay eggs. in fact, almost all the synapsids went extinct in the great Permian extinction, but the ones who survived went on to evolve into mammals, so actually we are descended from this group of animals.
someone asked Greg once in gargoyles were descended from dinosaurs and he said it depends on how you define "dinosaurs". synapsids are very often refered to as dinosaurs, even though they are not. some people may think Greg's comments point to the pterosaurs, which are not dinosaurs either, but often placed with them. i think that synapsids are much more likely than pterosaurs to be the ancestors of the Gargates. pterosaurs have wings and lay eggs and may have had fur, but they don't nurse their young as synapsids and Gargates do, and they don't show any of the temperature/energy regulation systems we see in many synapsids.
the third possibility is that Gargates are actually mammals branching off the Monotreme Order, which includes the Platypus. again, we have a group of warm-blooded egg layers that nurse their young.
so, IMHO, from most to least likely Gargates either:
-descended from Synapsids, making Gargates either the last living Synapsids or perhaps making Gargates a new class of vertebrates.
-descended from Pterosaurs, making Gargates a branch on the Reptile Class, or again a new Class of vertebrates descended from reptiles.
-or descended from Monotremes, making Gargates an Order of Mammal.

i could be wrong though, maybe they are descended from somewhere else like the birds, another group of mammals (like bats), or some other reptilian group.
*shrugs* just my two cents.

matt - [ewoks11@hotmail.com]
"To know that we know what we know, and that we do not know what we do not know, that is true knowledge." -Henry David Thoreau

TODD> I read your review for "The Reckoning". I believe Greg once explained why Demona chose Los Angeles based names for the Clones. It's not that LA has any meaning to her, it was more along the lines of her mocking the Trio and Hudson's names (which she sees as being completely asinine).
Greg Bishansky

Todd> I'm not sure that gargoyles having more than one impressive ability makes them particularly harder to believe. Bats, for just one example, have both sonar and wings. There's nor reason I know of why a species can't develop more than one interesting feature. (Unless you subscribe to the badger's theory of species development from "The Sword in the Stone".) Wings, whether gliding or flying, are prevalent throughout the animal kingdom, showing up in such unrelated aniamls groups as mammals, birds, and insects. Intelligence on a level with humans may be somewhat unique, but many of our primate relatives, and animals likes dogs who have lived with us for centuries, have been known to show remarkable intelligence and great understanding of us. Keep in mind too, that we tend to judge animal intelligence on how much sense their acttions make to us, which is not necessarily an accurate barometer. That pretty much leaves the stone sleep as being particularly unique in the animal kingdom.
Demonskrye

PATRICK - This is assuming, of course, that Sevarius's beliefs about gargoyles storing solar energy were accurate.... (But I'm not enough of a biology expert to judge whether he was right or wrong. To tell the truth, one biological issue about gargoyles is that they have three specialties - wings and the ability to glide on them, turning to stone in the daytime, and a human-compatible intelligence including the ability to speak. That does seem an incredible accomplishment for a species.)

GOREBASH - Every time that I click on it, it takes me to the main "Ask Greg" site rather than to the "question sorting" page. That's the big problem.

Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

Todd: What's broken about it? I was able to get in and it worked fine for me.

Cute Story: I gave a copy of the DVD to a co-worker's child. He looks at the DVD and starts to get upset, saying "I don't think I can hear this!". Having no clue what he meant I ask why and he says it's only at volume 1.

Yes, that really did happen.

Gorebash - [gorebash@s8.org]

Matt > Your facts are slightly off. At the polar circles, there is only one day a year where the sun does not rise in the winter (the winter solstice) or set in the summer (the summer solstice). North or south of those lines, the length of time that the sun is continuously below the horizon in the winter varies from 24 hours at the polar circle to a full half a year at the pole.

For example... Barrow, Alaska is the northernmost settlement in the U.S., located just above 71 degrees latitude. During winter in Barrow, the sun does not rise above the horizon at all for a period of about 30 days, centered on the winter solstice. And either side of those 30 days, there's a long period of time where the sun may only be seen above the horizon for a few minutes every day.

30 days of night is great for vampires, but what would it do to gargoyles if indeed they depend on stone sleep to collect solar energy as Dr. Sevarius postulated?

10 days left to pre-register for The Gathering 2006 before the rates increase. And... a big Gathering 2006 announcement is coming soon. :: cackles ::

Patrick
"There's that word again; 'heavy'. Why are things so heavy in the future? Is there a problem with the earth's gravitational pull?" - Doc Brown, "Back to the Future"

Thanks, Guandalug. I'm feeling excited about it all myself.
Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

Vertigo1> From what I understand, Goliath' problems were based in the "flow of time". Greg Weisman set time travels up in a way that changing history is impossible. Now, we know that Griff didn't come back home in his time, because Leo and Una never saw him again. Thus, it's the timestream that tries to make sure it doesn't get altered - Griff didn't come back, so he won't. Goliath' only chance was indeed to take Griff out of the equatation - he was not allowed getting home in his time, so taking him into the future both made sure that history was true AND that Griff would survive.

On another note: 2 more reviews by Todd Jensen. He only got the 'Hunters Moon' trilogy now, and then he's done with Season 2.

Guandalug la'Fay - [guandalug@gargoyles-fans.org]
It has been said that the world is a strange place. This is not true. The world is a VERY strange place.

You know, after watching "MIA" a few times, something occurred to me. What exactly WAS stopping Goliath from taking Griff back home without taking him to the future?

Could it have been the remnants of the Archmage messing with Goliath? If so, what possible goal could he have had to make Goliath take Griff ahead in time?

Vertigo1 - [md2389@gmail.com]
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - Adam Savage (Mythbusters)

Todd-- Ehee... gotcha. ^_^;
Kythera of Anevern - [kythera(at)gmail.com]
"Live for glory, strength and fury; play your part in the greater scheme of life and nature"

GOREBASH - What I meant was the page where I would look over each question and see whether it was an acceptable or unacceptable question, and delete it if it was unacceptable (as in, ideas disguised as questions, multiple topics, etc.). Sorry if I didn't make it so clear.

KYTHERA - Sorry about not being too clear on that one. I also know that Vikings didn't wear horned helmets in real history, and was pleased with "Gargoyles" for depicting them in a more historically accurate fashion thereby. But I knew that on almost all other occasions whenever Vikings show up in pop culture depictions, they're portrayed as wearing horned helmets, and that that's how most people imagine them. I was thereby contrasting it with how the Loch Ness Monster was portrayed as a plesiosaur, the most well-known take on it, as opposed to, say, a giant sea slug (another theory about what it might be). I really ought to have edited my post this morning to ensure greater clarity.

Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

sorry for the double post, but i had some more thoughts:
just to be clear to those less knowledgeable in astronomy and planetology, if you live in Arctic or Antacrtic Circles, you will not have 6 months of darkness and 6 months of sunlight. the progression of a year will gradually move back and forth from these two extremes. so for a gargoyle, most of its days at the Poles would have some sleeping and some waking, but only rarely an equal amount as they would have at the Equator. so right now at the North Pole as we approach the Winter Solstice, the nights are very long, probably over 23 hours and the day is less than an hour long. i think this cycle would be rougher for gargoyles even than the 6-month awake, 6-month asleep thing. in some parts of the year gargoyles would be asleep virtually the entire day only to wake for a few minutes and go back to sleep, and at other parts of the year, gargoyles would be awake virtually the enture day only to go to sleep for a few minutes and wake up again. i wouldn't think that would be too good for their health, though its possible they could adapt.
below is a link to a site where you can see exactly where on Earth the sun is shining at this moment (as well as cloud cover) if you watch it over the next six months you'll see the curving lines at sunrise and sunset straighten out until they are completley vertical on the map at the Spring Equinox in March. its a pretty cool site.

matt - [ewoks11@hotmail.com]
"To know that we know what we know, and that we do not know what we do not know, that is true knowledge." -Henry David Thoreau

i don't think gargoyles ever lived in the upper latitudes because of those issues, not until New Camelot anyway... and thats alright, most species cannot survive in the Arctic or Antartic Circles obviously, and many that do only migrate there in the local summers to take advantage of the abundance of life due to the increase in sunlight. gargoyles though... well, i doubt they lived anywhere where a period of night or sunlight exceeded 16 hours a day, it would just me too rough on them, i think. gargoyles are temperate and tropical creatures probably.
matt - [ewoks11@hotmail.com]
"To know that we know what we know, and that we do not know what we do not know, that is true knowledge." -Henry David Thoreau

Discussion topic inspired by the temperature...

Gargoyles living north of the arctic circle, where for a part of the year the sun does not rise at all, and for another part of the year the sun never sets. What would happen? Would they be awake 24 hours a day during the winter, and turn to stone for the entire lenght of the arctic summer?

Patrick

Only 5 days left to turn in stories to win a season 2 gargoyles dvd.

No one has entered yet so your chances of winning are great.
http://www.ka-blamo.com/gargs/dvd.html

Don't forget to join us at anime L.A along with greg weisman at the gargoyle fan booth they gave us to help promote the show.
http://www.animelosangeles.org/

Shara - [Jeanie54_2000@yahoo.com]
http://www.animelosangeles.org/

the Loch Ness Monster wouldn't want to eat a human or gargoyle if it was a pliesosaur anyway, they were exclusively fish (and perhaps mollusk) eaters and given the fact that they still look identical to those living in the Loch its not likely they evolved to change their diet much.
matt - [ewoks11@hotmail.com]
"To know that we know what we know, and that we do not know what we do not know, that is true knowledge." -Henry David Thoreau

Todd: re: horned helmets

Actually, and I may have to go back and check my notes, I think Vikings SANS horned helmets is more accurate. ;]

Kythera of Anevern - [kythera(at)gmail.com]
"Live for glory, strength and fury; play your part in the greater scheme of life and nature"

Pants: Take what you've got now for the front (zipper w/button on top) and put that on the back side of the pants, minus the zipper. There's your tail .. er.. hole.
Gorebash - [gorebash@s8.org]

Todd: "clearing questions" page? Are you talking about the one that cleared out the "latest responses" page or something else?
Gorebash - [gorebash@s8.org]

PATRICK - Actually, kilts came along later in Scottish history than the 10th century (though I don't know the details - but they'd be, I believe, more around the time of Bonnie Prince Charlie, say).

As for Nessie, Greg mentioned about the local gargoyle clan at Loch Ness having befriended the Loch Ness Monsters, so Nessie probably was so receptive towards Angela on that basis. (And the plesiosaur perspective isn't so surprising, given that it's the best-known one. Of course, the series did take a less familiar look at Macbeth's past than the Shakespeare version, not to mention the way that it designed the Vikings without a single horned helmet in sight....)

There's also a legend that St. Columba (an Irish missionary in Scotland back in the 6th century) tamed the Loch Ness Monster (or the one living in his day), and maybe what he did had a strong impact on all of its descendants.

Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

Yay, it's the semi-annual "the queue is too long at 'Ask Greg' festival"! Just in time for Christmas, too! :P

Re: "Monsters" - Interesting that they chose to go with the plesiosaur over all the other competing theories on what kind of animal the Loch Ness monster might be if indeed it even exists. Makes it even more intriguing that Angela was able to make friends with it so quickly, as the plesiosaurs were carnivores and (like most dinosaurs) had brains about the the size of a walnut.

Re: Pants - Someone can correct me on this, but I don't believe that pants as we know them today were widely worn in the tenth century. If we want to be nitpicky, the more appropriate question to ask about Scottish gargolyes would be why loincloths and not kilts. As for an out-of-universe rationale, well... Donald Duck and his kin don't wear pants, either.

11 days left to pre-register for The Gathering 2006 before the rates increase.

Patrick
"It's frickin' freezin' in here, Mr. Bigglesworth!" - Dr. Evil, "Austin Powers"

DPH - *Sigh* Once again, I don't remember just where I left off, and I have no way of checking since the link that I used to have to the "clearing questions" page no longer works. (I'm beginning to understand how Greg feels when people keep on asking him the same questions over and over.)

And the queue has been closed ever since the beginning of September.

Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

Guandalung! Do me a favor and get in touch with me, asap, please?


Maintain and Check Six!

Stephen R, Sobotka Jr. - [ssobotka33616_AT_yahoo.com]

Can we please the submit button for Ask Greg shut down until we get down to less than 400 questions? Literally, question #401 is the last Gathering 2004 Journal.

Todd - Could you identify the last question that you approved at Ask Greg?

dph
Whatever happenned to simplicity?

doesn't Hudson wear some sort of pants along with the loincloth?
matt - [ewoks11@hotmail.com]
"To know that we know what we know, and that we do not know what we do not know, that is true knowledge." -Henry David Thoreau

Gargoyles pants - could be that the artists didn't think of a way they could work the tail into a pair of pants. Either that, or it could be a case of the whole shedding of stone situation. It wouldn't be too comfortable to wake up with rocks in your pants now would it? That could be the reason behind the loin cloths.
All kidding aside, how do you think the design of Gargoyle pants should work? Velcro strap over the tail hole, a button, maybe a buckle of some sort. Looking for budding fashion designers to offer some suggestions here.

Wingless

ED - Well, there were several reasons why I watched Part Three out of order, but part of it was that I was momentarily nervous, when watching the Commentary version, that they might have cut out a couple of lines from Xanatos and Owen's conversation near the beginning, because it seemed to me that Owen's suggestion of looking through the Grimorum for a counterspell was coming in it a little earlier than I thought that it had. I was relieved to see that there hadn't been any cuts after all when I watched the version without the audio commentary.

MATT - Yes, I suspect that the break-up of the alliance would have been handled in a more subtle fashion than I was assuming. Though I still got the impression that only Prince Malcolm and the Captain got along that well with the gargoyles.

I've mentioned this before, incidentally, but I rather like the fact that the Captain is known only by his title in the series, and isn't given an actual name. It matches the way that he identifies with the gargoyles (who are, at that time, nameless) rather than with his fellow humans, to the extent that, when Hakon asks him, "Why betray your kind?" he bitterly replies "They're not my kind".

Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

The first time I watched "Metamorphosis" is when I figured Brooklyn wouldn't be a favorite of mine. I didn't like how he seemed to force meaning and emotion onto his "relationship" with Maggie. That whole "She doesn't need me" bit and such. Trying to force himself into a position of savior when she didn't really want to be saved in the first place (at least, not by Brooklyn). That bit always gets under my skin.

I dig the concept of "Monsters" and I really like including the Loch Ness monster in the series because of the parallels you can draw between Loch Ness monsters and gargoyles (although there is the whole father/daughter confusion with the LNMs). Sevarius is great. There just isn't enough of ol' Anton in the series. I just get caught up in calling the male monster "Big Daddy". It sounds like a pimp's name. And then you hear Angela repeat it and it just feels too foreign a phrase for her to ever say. And Sevarius slips in a "nessie-wessie" line. On one hand, I can see Sevarius' usual over-the-top manner laying down the nicknames rather thick, but on the other it just seems way too cute a nickname for Sevarius to use.

It's such a trivial thing to be bothered by, but it's like the fuzz on peaches... it's just a wierd feeling.

Bearded pig mom from "The Mirror": It looks like maybe some of the concept art developed for the comedic version of the show was slipped in here. I love the screenshot. You can get the whole moment without hearing or seeing anything. "I want a pizza. I want candy! MOM BUY ME CANDY! WAAAA." And all mom can do is just drag the kid along thinking to hirself "aw jeeze...".

Interesting point: Why do so few gargoyles wear pants? Sure, moms is wearing a dress, but the kid has no pants. And really, how many pants did you see in "The Mirror". I think we need to start a "Pants for Gargoyles" drive.

Gorebash - [gorebash@s8.org]

Todd: I agree about the Brigette Bako quote. I thought that was a great observation. Incidentally, is there a particular logic to your choice of episodes to watch first? Watching the third part of "City of Stone" apart from the other parts in particular? At any rate, I agree that "Monsters" should be fun. I have mixed feelings about the modern-day UK scenes in the show since often I find their presentation of the country somewhat bizarre and unfamiliar ("M.I.A." in particular). But after this long, it will be very exciting to watch an "almost as good as new" episode that I don't know as well as the others.
Ed

I was watching "Metamorphosis" last night and a question I'd had for a while came back to me. It always struck me as a bit lame how Elisa recognizes her brother through the "Cross my heart" "And hope to die" thing. When greg did the story notes for this episode, I noticed that he originally wanted the line to be somthing very specific to the siblings. I think his example was "Cross my heart" "And cross my eyes". Instead, we get the two of them repeating the phrase the way everyone says it, making it a far less convincing reason for Elisa to realize that Talon is Derek if she didn't already. I wonder why the line ended up being so generic instead of something specific that would have made sense.

The animation in the episode is pretty weak, which is a shame when you have so many characters appearing for the first time. I wonder if the mutates actually looked better in the model sheets, but were made to look worse by the poor quality animation. Seeing this again, I'm really glad the designs were updated later on. (And saying that they were continuing to muate is an excellent excuse.)

Poor Brooklyn. I do feel kind of sorry for him, even though what Maggie says to him towards the end is sort of right. If she had been human, he likely wouldn't have even noticed her at first. His interest in her is based entirely on the fact that she resembles a gargoyle, which is not how she sees herself or wants to be. Still, you can understand how Brook might get more than a little ahead of himself, given that the only female gargoyle he knows to be alive is an enemy of his clan. I really would love to see "TimeDancer" play out so we can see the experiences that take Brooklyn from hormonal teenage gargoyle to responsible loving family man.

Demonskrye
...and hope to fly.

Todd> not sure i entirely agree with you on how you think "Dark Ages" would be. i understand how you can say that if we go through that whole series with the humans being bastards to the Wyvern Clan that fans might agree with Demona's take and cheer when she and the Captain betray the castle, but theres more to it than that. if theres one human the Wyvern Clan could confide in, than its the Captain. hes the Clan's Elisa. he is the last human who would betray them, like Elisa would later be. its the fact that he would be responsible (partly) for the massacre that will give it weight. fans would think, "the gargoyles should leave, and the Captain should go with them, the humans don't respect him either." or "the gargoyles and the Captain should betray the rest of the humans and take over the Castle" (these are essentially Othello and Demona's comments to Goliath) so when the complete opposite thing happens it'll be an incredible twist. "Dark Ages" will bring a lot more depth to Awakenings and Shadows of the Past.
as for fans wondering why it takes so long for the tension to break between the Clan and the Wyvern humans, well, ideally "Dark Ages" would start in the Golden Age and everyone gets along great, and slowly the tension and animosity builds between the humans and gargs until it reaches breaking point at the end of the series. fans will feel the tension build with the gargs and humans, but they'll also remember how and why the alliance was first formed and hope to honor that.
while there are similarities, the Manhattan Clan in NYC and the Wyvern Clan post-994 had very different relationships with the human community.

neat idea: at the beginning of "Dark Ages" (being the chronologically first spin-off) you could have a LOTR type prologue showing and explaining the human/gargoyle relationship throughout history leading up to the middle ages or maybe just the Gargoyle/Human Golden Age Greg has mentioned. maybe even show things like Stone Age humans unsuccesfully attacking a stone gargoyle, the Humility Spell, the Camelot Clan and other early Alliances. that'd be cool.

matt - [ewoks11@hotmail.com]
"To know that we know what we know, and that we do not know what we do not know, that is true knowledge." -Henry David Thoreau

I'll settle for ten.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75@gmail.com]
"Anyway, they say she comes on a pale horse, but I'm sure I hear a train..."

So far, I've seen the commentary for "City of Stone", the episode introductions, and the Gathering of the Cast and Crew. I also watched the individual episodes of "Metamorphosis", "The Mirror", "Vows", "City of Stone Part Three", "Outfoxed", and "Kingdom"; I'm hoping to see the rest of them soon. I'm still enjoying the much clearer pictures on these than on my old tapes.

One thing that amused me was Brigitte Bako's comparison of Angela to such Shakespearean heroines as Desdemona and Juliet. I found her choices appropriate, since Angela was possessed by Desdemona/Coldfire in "Possession" and she and Broadway were reading "Romeo and Juliet" together in "The Journey".

I hope that you'll indeed get to see "Monsters", Ed. While it's not one of the popular episodes (partly, I suspect, because the animation isn't up to the series' usual standards), I have a bit of a soft spot for it. I always liked it when the series paid a visit to the British Isles, and thought it extremely appropriate that the gargoyles would meet the Loch Ness Monster, given that they're Scottish - just as I thought it appropriate that Macbeth and the Weird Sisters would show up in the series, for the same reason. (I wonder whether, if the series had lasted long enough, Robert the Bruce's spider would have gotten in somewhere as well. Maybe it was really Anansi in disguise, though what he was doing so far away from Africa, I won't even try to figure out.)

Continuing last week's conversation about the upcoming comic book, one thing that I'll be interested in seeing in it is how it'll be handling any changes in the public response to the gargoyles. Obviously, Greg will make it a lot slower than the "Goliath Chronicles" made it (actually, the "Goliath Chronicles" didn't even give a good picture of gradual change; it would always reset the public attitude towards the gargoyles to all-out hostility at the beginning of each episode, no matter how much progress the clan had made at the end of the preceding episode, and finally - when public hostility had reached such a height that everyone from Margot Yale on down was swallowing Castaway's lie whole in "Angels in the Night" - a drastic 180 degrees reversal in the last few minutes of the final episode), but it will be interesting to see, especially since it strikes me as almost requiring a considerable amount of cautious steering between Scylla and Charybdis.

On the one hand, if the New York populace keeps on hating the gargoyles in an extremely virulent form (to the point where we're getting civilians - as opposed to Quarrymen - rioting and attacking known gargoyle supporters a la "Goliath Chronicles"), the readers will no doubt wind up taking such a strong dislike towards these people that they'd probably want Goliath and his clan to stop protecting them with a tone of "They deserve to be robbed and worse by the criminals." (As I've mentioned before, that's one potential problem for "Dark Ages"; after seeing the human population of Castle Wyvern scorn the gargoyles for 23 years - except for Prince Malcolm and the Captain of the Guard - there'd be the danger of the audience being tempted to cheer and applaud when Demona and the Captain finally turn those same humans over to the Vikings.) They'd probably even start viewing Goliath's belief in protecting the humans with contempt, or pity at best, seeing him and his clan as sentimental fools bent on sacrificing themselves for thoroughly undeserving people.

On the other hand, have the public undergo a change of heart too quickly, and it'll not only seem unrealistic, but destroy much of the dramatic tension in the series. (In particular, it would raise some difficulties in using Demona. Much of Demona's effectiveness comes from the fact that what she says about humanity is partly - though only partly - true; a lot of humans do fear and hate gargoyles, after all. And even the presence of a few pro-gargoyle humans like Elisa does not threaten Demona's "Humanity is our enemy" statement; as she points out in "Temptation", even if humans like Elisa are indeed loyal - and it takes a great deal of effort for Demona to voice it even as a possibility - they're outnumbered by the humans who hate gargoyles, and wouldn't be enough to protect the clan from death at the latter's hands. So Demona is given a certain amount of credibility. But if we see a concerted effort on the part of the human race in general to live in peace with gargoyles, with the violent opposition being restricted to the criminal segment of the population - and maybe a few anti-gargoyle civilians with a function similar to that of, say, J. Jonah Jameson in "Spiderman" - Demona's anti-humanity speeches are going to seem to the audience to be just plain ridiculous; their attitude towards her is going to be one of "That red-headed gargoyle's nuttier than a fruitcake.")

So it will be quite a challenge. Fortunately, I believe that Greg Weisman's up to it.

Todd Jensen
"Gargoyles" - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

Number 8!

If Demona wanted to found her company in state that was friendly to big business, she'd have chosen Texas, not California. But I think Nightstone was founded in France, actually. That's what the dialog between her and Thailog in "Sanctuary" seems to imply.

12 days left to pre-register for The Gathering 2006 before the rates increase.

Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2006 makes a great stocking stuffer!]
"It's frickin' freezin' in here, Mr. Bigglesworth!" - Dr. Evil, "Austin Powers"

Seventh.
Spen

My Season 2 Volume 1 set arrived on Saturday, and I've just finished looking through the features -- none of the episodes yet, although even with the commentary on, "City of Stone" still gives me chills. I haven't watched a lot of these episodes in years -- by the late 90s I had them memorised so well I just didn't feel the same compulsion to get them out, and since then my tapes have either been damaged, or I've not had time, or I just haven't had a television or video. Since 2004, of course, I decided to wait and watch them fresh for the first time on DVD, so I'm definitely looking forward to that.

But the whole set is so exciting. I loved the first season set, but this one just gets me jazzed in a whole new way. The cover design is just beautiful in the flesh, and the red and gold is so strong. The fold-out casing just feels a bit sleeker than the last one, and the inside, with the message from Greg and insert card as part of the DVD just feels more complete. All the background designs, from the back images to the skyscraper designs, to the DVD images, are fantastic. My only quibble is the overlapping casing for the first and second DVD and the fact that the DVDs are a bit stiff coming out (although I've come across much worse fitting ones).

The episode introductions are delightful -- even though there aren't actual surprises because Ask Greg has 'spoiled' me, I still love the ones which give a bit of background to the thinking behind the tales as opposed to a recapitulation of the themes (which are fun too). I hadn't thought of the idea of episode introductions and when people discussed what features they wanted here, I don't remember it cropping up, but it was a great idea -- just personalised each episode. The featurette was lovely too. The set, like the new season itself, just feels bigger, sleeker, cooler. Also gratified that the commentary this time didn't spoil the next DVD set (assuming there is one) so I can tell people I introduce it to that the commentary isn't spoilery (if a bit hint-ery).

Many thanks to Greg and everyone involved in the production. The set is a real delight, and I'll keep my fingers firmly crossed for the next set (including the only 'Weisman canon' episode I never had on tape and only saw once, during which time I was a bit distracted fighting with the broken video recorder: "Monsters").

Ed

5TH!!!
matt - [ewoks11@hotmail.com]
"To know that we know what we know, and that we do not know what we do not know, that is true knowledge." -Henry David Thoreau

4th!

So, there I was, taking screenshots from the show, as usual, when I came across this:

http://members.aol.com/DTaina/Stuff/Woman_Beard.jpg

Anyone remember the bearded woman from The Mirror? As it turns out, she has a pig's nose, too. Damn, she's creepy!

D. Taina
"Orday rewindum tapus!" - The Heroes Awaken Game

3rd!!
dph
Whatever happenned to simplicity?

2nd.
Leo

1st!!! Woo hoo hoo hoo hoo!!!
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.