The only "Violent" Pro-Gargoyle group that I would like to see is a non-fictional group using necessary force to get Season 2 Vol 2 released on DVD. Who's with me!?
t-o-n-WHY - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
posted @ Sun, Nov 11, 2007 11:35:34 pm EST from 70.15.84.29

I'm not a tree-hugger. I prefer the great INdoors, clean food, and toilet paper. (Sorry. Best I could do on short notice)

I love the idea of militant/idiotic pro-gargoyle groups; I can certainly picture some furries and wannabe-pagans and the stupid kind of goths going at that: people so wrapped up in their personal fandom they forget reality. It'd make a great contrast to the Quarrymen: it's a sad thing that such multifaceted balance, which should be self-evident to any writer, often gets overlooked.
Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream" -- Shirley Jackson
posted @ Sun, Nov 11, 2007 11:05:12 pm EST from 216.36.154.204

Hey, it could have been anyone. Most artists are tree-huggers. Case in point, the gentleman responsible for my signature. They were crunchy as hell when they did that record.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Hopefully, we should appreciate that given points in time are not so significant as the nature of what is impressed on the mind, and how it is retained and used." -Yes ("Tales From Topographic Oceans")
posted @ Sun, Nov 11, 2007 10:13:39 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

It's just that friends of a certain tree-hugging artist might be watching. ;)
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"There's no need to be nice on the way up, 'cause you're not coming down." - Genesis, "Paperlate"
posted @ Sun, Nov 11, 2007 9:59:16 pm EST from 76.205.97.110

Why, was there an accident in here recently, or...

*feels his foot come down in something soft, and glances at the bottom of his sneaker*

Never mind, I just found out. *sigh* Where does the CR keep its hose?
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Hopefully, we should appreciate that given points in time are not so significant as the nature of what is impressed on the mind, and how it is retained and used." -Yes ("Tales From Topographic Oceans")
posted @ Sun, Nov 11, 2007 9:55:03 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

HoE > Watch where you step there. ;)
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"There's no need to be nice on the way up, 'cause you're not coming down." - Genesis, "Paperlate"
posted @ Sun, Nov 11, 2007 9:22:16 pm EST from 76.205.97.110

Greg B: Well, better a Goth girl than a tree-hugging artist. No, wait. Goth girl might be worse. ( ;

Fortunately, canon Demona would be unable to shake a thousand years of hatred and prejudice just like that.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"In this world there are many like me who've killed their emotions. Don't forget that." -Shadow ("Final Fantasy VI")
posted @ Sun, Nov 11, 2007 8:41:23 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

I think a while ago it may have been someone in this room who put it this way:

When people learn of gargoyles, there will be many opinions on them:
People who want to kill gargoyles
People who want to exploit and profit from gargoyles
People who want to live in peace with gargoyles
People who want to worship gargoyles
People who want to have sex with gargoyles
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Sun, Nov 11, 2007 8:32:05 pm EST from 209.162.56.40

HoE> Yeah, unfortunately after that, you'll get the fanfics where being around them makes her no longer hate humans, or she ends up becoming lovers with some lone goth girl.
Greg Bishansky
"Don't you ever, EVER compare me to 'Family Guy,' you hear me Kyle? Compare me to 'Family Guy' again and so help me, I will kill you where you stand! Do you have any idea what it's like? Everywhere I go: 'Hey Cartman you must like 'Family Guy,' right?' 'Hey, your sense of humor reminds me of "Family Guy" Cartman!' I am nothing like Family Guy! When I make jokes they are inherent to a story! Deep situational and emotional jokes based on what is relevant and has a point, not just one random interchangable joke after another!" -Cartman
posted @ Sun, Nov 11, 2007 8:31:06 pm EST from 75.56.245.4

Sorry for the double post, but I just wanted to add that I think the idea of Demona duping a bunch of Goths into being her minions came up in here before, just can't remember when.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"In this world there are many like me who've killed their emotions. Don't forget that." -Shadow ("Final Fantasy VI")
posted @ Sun, Nov 11, 2007 8:29:07 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

Siren: <I wonder how Goliath would be able to deal with that. To see people who call themselves his allies, but they might try to assassinate Margo. Which would cause her to assume the gargoyles had a hand in it. Chaos. Beautiful chaos, lol>

You rock.

Yeah, it would be fun to get the gargoyles in the same room as some of these wackos. The gargoyles probably couldn't stand the smell. But I just had an interesting thought. Demona isn't above allying with humans. I wonder if she might try to mold such a group into an army that would suit her purposes.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"In this world there are many like me who've killed their emotions. Don't forget that." -Shadow ("Final Fantasy VI")
posted @ Sun, Nov 11, 2007 8:23:00 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

I wonder how many people would try to alter their body to look like a gargoyle. You have people who tattoo their body with scales and split their tongue to look like a reptile. And a man who has gone through tons of plastic surgery to look like a cat. Imagine the people getting the horn implants, tattoos, etc to look gargoyle.
Siren
Don't knock on Death's door. Ring his doorbell and run, he hates that.
posted @ Sun, Nov 11, 2007 7:41:37 pm EST from 68.202.76.113

Todd> I tend to think that we'll eventually start to see more clans revealed, if for no other reason than that people will probably start treating reports of winged monsters a tad more seriously. I mean how long can the London clan expect to go unnoticed in one of the biggest cities on Earth when they're gliding around wailing on skinheads? I'd love to see what the British tabloids made of them, I can almost see the headlines now..."MY GARGOYLE SEX SHAME: AN EXCLUSIVE INTERVEIW!"

As for gargoyle worshiping cults, why not? If Lovecraft can have inbred hicks worshiping mutant fish people then I say Ia! Ia! Demona fhtagn!
Algernon
"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up" -C. S. Lewis
posted @ Sun, Nov 11, 2007 7:37:22 pm EST from 86.41.212.159

I agree. There are extremists in our society all the time. People who call abortion murder, but bomb clinics and kill people. Animal rights activist who set free lab animals or fur farm animals, so those animals can die slow deaths in places they can't find food or survive the elements and it causes the entire ecosystem in that area to go off whack.

I wonder how Goliath would be able to deal with that. To see people who call themselves his allies, but they might try to assassinate Margo. Which would cause her to assume the gargoyles had a hand in it. Chaos. Beautiful chaos, lol
Siren
Don't knock on Death's door. Ring his doorbell and run, he hates that.
posted @ Sun, Nov 11, 2007 7:33:53 pm EST from 68.202.76.113

Count me in as someone else who'd like to see a violent pro-gargoyle group. If history has taught us anything, it's that well-meaning people have a tendency to fuck things up.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Brooding in the tower. Watching o'er his lands. Holding every creature, helplessly they stand. Gaze into his prisms, knowing they are near. Leads them to the dungeons. Spectres numb with fear, they bow defeated." -Rush ("The Necromancer")
posted @ Sun, Nov 11, 2007 7:30:07 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

The conversation is reminding me of the Marvel comic with Demona, the gargoyle egg, and the ninjas. LOL

I can see several groups sprouting from the known existence of gargoyles:
Groups who actually mean well. They see gargoyles as equals and want to be sure they have rights. Like many human rights organizations. They will have an understanding of what gargoyles really need.
Groups who act like they mean well. Work to help gargoyles, but don't really know what they are like. They'll want to be sure they can get jobs and such. If you read Harry Potter, think of S.P.E.W.
Groups who want to exterminate them, like Quarrymen.
Groups who have a "not in my neighborhood" idea. They aren't out to destroy them per-say, but they want them treated like animals or lesser human beings, tracked and not allowed to live around people. Pretty much, treat them like criminals, just in case they are kinda mentality.
Siren
Don't knock on Death's door. Ring his doorbell and run, he hates that.
posted @ Sun, Nov 11, 2007 7:18:56 pm EST from 68.202.76.113

IIRC, there was an issue of the Marvel comic book where Demona took advantage of just such a group of humans.

Gargoyles can glide and undergo a transformation process twice daily that to many would seem supernatural. And it could be argued that worshiping gargoyles on that basis isn't any more messed up than worshiping a guy who can turn water into wine. :P
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"It was water, now it's wine. I don't need all of you to believe me, just twelve of you."
posted @ Sun, Nov 11, 2007 7:07:26 pm EST from 76.205.97.110

Well, obviously we don't want a repeat of "The Goliath Chronicles", where everything was clear-cut black & white. There should be good people in the Quarrymen along with the lunatics, and there should be crazies who are pro-gargoyle. That's the way it is in real life, especially when ignorance is involved.

I do like the Satanism idea. Maybe we'll see something like that in the comics, especially since S&P is much looser.

As for crazy pro-gargoyle organizations. There's always the PIT article over at wikiality.

http://www.wikiality.com/People_For_Interspecies_Tolerance

Oh, and for those of you who have never seen the Colbert Report, and might not completely get these articles, this link. I think this sums up the Report quite well.
http://www.comedycentral.com/motherload/index.jhtml?ml_video=77962
Greg Bishansky
"Don't you ever, EVER compare me to 'Family Guy,' you hear me Kyle? Compare me to 'Family Guy' again and so help me, I will kill you where you stand! Do you have any idea what it's like? Everywhere I go: 'Hey Cartman you must like 'Family Guy,' right?' 'Hey, your sense of humor reminds me of "Family Guy" Cartman!' I am nothing like Family Guy! When I make jokes they are inherent to a story! Deep situational and emotional jokes based on what is relevant and has a point, not just one random interchangable joke after another!" -Cartman
posted @ Sun, Nov 11, 2007 7:05:55 pm EST from 75.56.245.4

Yeah, the kind of confused idiots who give Paganism a bad name are *exactly* the same ones who would latch onto gargoyles for all the wrong reasons.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Sun, Nov 11, 2007 7:02:48 pm EST from 209.162.56.40

Yeah, I can totally see some people wanting to worship them or something. Humans are f*#^ed up...
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Sun, Nov 11, 2007 6:59:49 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Maybe there'd be a pro-gargoyle group out there that support the gargoyles precisely because they mistakenly believe them to be demonic monsters (the kind of people who'd consider Satanism cool).
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Sun, Nov 11, 2007 6:44:42 pm EST from 4.244.215.158

Greg B> I think you and I just said the same thing: We both want to see violent pro-gargoyle types!
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Sun, Nov 11, 2007 6:21:21 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Patrick> P.I.T. was a "Goliath Chronicles" invention. Greg has said so more than once. However, like many things in TGC, despite how much fans hate it, it has become fanon as well... like emasculated Xanatos and Snidely Castaway.

Personally, I kind of want to see a pro-Gargoyle organization that is more like Green Peace or PETA. I.E. a bunch of idiots who think they're helping, but aren't. In fact, they just make things worse, and are themselves violent vigilantes.
Greg Bishansky
"Don't you ever, EVER compare me to 'Family Guy,' you hear me Kyle? Compare me to 'Family Guy' again and so help me, I will kill you where you stand! Do you have any idea what it's like? Everywhere I go: 'Hey Cartman you must like 'Family Guy,' right?' 'Hey, your sense of humor reminds me of "Family Guy" Cartman!' I am nothing like Family Guy! When I make jokes they are inherent to a story! Deep situational and emotional jokes based on what is relevant and has a point, not just one random interchangable joke after another!" -Cartman
posted @ Sun, Nov 11, 2007 6:19:53 pm EST from 75.56.245.4

I remember a conversation in here that we had concerning various Gargoyle related groups that'd spring up after Hunter's Moon. We decided there was two counterpoints. Pro-Gargoyle and Anti-Gargoyle. And Violent and Peaceful. So you'd end up getting four combinations:

Violent Anti-Gargoyle: (Some of the Quarrymen like Banquo and Fleance)
Peaceful Anti-Gargoyle: (Perhaps Sarah Brown will fit into this group?)
Violent Pro-Gargoyle: (A group I'd be particularly interested in seeing, and the Manhattan Clan's reaction to them)
Peaceful Pro-Gargoyle: (Something like the PIT crew from TGC)
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Sun, Nov 11, 2007 6:19:33 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Patrick> P.I.T. was a "Goliath Chronicles" invention. Greg has said so more than once. However, like many things in TGC, despite how much fans hate it, it has become fanon as well... like emasculated Xanatos and Snidely Castaway.
Greg Bishansky
"Don't you ever, EVER compare me to 'Family Guy,' you hear me Kyle? Compare me to 'Family Guy' again and so help me, I will kill you where you stand! Do you have any idea what it's like? Everywhere I go: 'Hey Cartman you must like 'Family Guy,' right?' 'Hey, your sense of humor reminds me of "Family Guy" Cartman!' I am nothing like Family Guy! When I make jokes they are inherent to a story! Deep situational and emotional jokes based on what is relevant and has a point, not just one random interchangable joke after another!" -Cartman
posted @ Sun, Nov 11, 2007 6:17:16 pm EST from 75.56.245.4

With the Quarrymen publicly expressing a desire to wipe out all the gargoyles, surely organizations PETA and Greanpeace would choose to get involved. "Save the gargoyles!"

I forget, was People for Interspecies Tolerance purely a "Goliath Chronicles" creation? In retrospect, I think I would have liked to see them depicted as a little less pacifist, if only for the sake of drama.
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"They are not the hell your whales." - Mr. Spock, "Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home"
posted @ Sun, Nov 11, 2007 6:06:51 pm EST from 76.205.97.110

As long as the only gargoyles that the public know about are in New York, I think that the Quarrymen would be unlikely to expand much past the borders of Manhattan. At least, not as long as Quarryman activities consist mainly of patrolling the streets at night, looking for those "monsters". Though I wonder whether people in other cities would start wondering, after the news broke from Manhattan, if there might be gargoyles secretly nesting there as well.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Sun, Nov 11, 2007 4:49:30 pm EST from 4.244.215.158

Greg B> I'm not so sure about that. while Castaway may have a lot of personnel amimosity for Demona and the Manhattan clan, remember that his ultimate goal is the total genocide of the gargoyle race. I doubt he'll be content to just ignore any of the international clans. Heck, what happens if he finds out about Loch Ness. The idea of a thriving gargoyle clan in his native Scotland would probably be particularly galling.

Though personally I think the Quarrymen would have most luck winning hearts and minds would be Guatemala. After all, the Mayan clan already has a somewhat antagonistic relationship with the local humans and even after the public realise that gargoyles are sentient, it wouldn't take much to portray Zafiro and co. as a bunch of fanatical eco-terrorists.

But mostly my thoughts are based on the fact that the Quarrymen are supposed to be major antagonists in "2198". a series which strikes me as having a very international if not interstellar scope.
Algernon
"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up" -C. S. Lewis
posted @ Sun, Nov 11, 2007 2:02:57 pm EST from 86.41.212.159

The Ku Klux Klan isn't international, I see no reason why the Quarrymen would be. I am sure there will be Quarrymen-like organizations elseware as more clans are revealed, but they probably won't be affiliated with the Castaways.
Greg Bishansky
"Don't you ever, EVER compare me to 'Family Guy,' you hear me Kyle? Compare me to 'Family Guy' again and so help me, I will kill you where you stand! Do you have any idea what it's like? Everywhere I go: 'Hey Cartman you must like 'Family Guy,' right?' 'Hey, your sense of humor reminds me of "Family Guy" Cartman!' I am nothing like Family Guy! When I make jokes they are inherent to a story! Deep situational and emotional jokes based on what is relevant and has a point, not just one random interchangable joke after another!" -Cartman
posted @ Sun, Nov 11, 2007 1:27:51 pm EST from 75.56.245.4

I suck for a double off-topic post, but this video made me laugh hard enough to deserve it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQmxnu9oeHU

Broadway has a secret.
Spoonvonstup - [<--- Gargoyles Music Video Database]
posted @ Sun, Nov 11, 2007 12:56:11 pm EST from 192.246.231.195

Jurgan> Thanks for clearing that up. I blame my old font colour for the confusion, blue on a dark blue background is a little hard to read so I'm experimenting with sky blue.

That said I would not be surprised to see the Quarrymen take on a more international scope as more gargoyle clans become known to the world. In the not too distant future we may be seeing British, Japanese and Guatemalan branches of the organisation.
Algernon
"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up" -C. S. Lewis
posted @ Sun, Nov 11, 2007 12:49:01 pm EST from 86.41.212.159

He didn't say "a huge multinational army," he said "a huge multinational, a private army." The "multinational" was a reference to Xanatos Enterprises, the multinational corporation.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
"Think of a sword as a part of your body." "Like a second head!" "Mmm, more like an extra-long, really sharp arm." -Sokka and his master, from Avatar: The Last Airbender
posted @ Sun, Nov 11, 2007 12:28:23 pm EST from 68.58.248.59

Very much Off-Topic: Wading through YouTube for Gargoyles videos, I came across this crazy piece of work:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_y6VX0tpwk

Opening/Trailer for a live-action Gargoyles/Spiderman show. Basically Spiderman footage plus Van Helsing, but it's one of the more fun Gargoyles live-action manips I've seen so far.
Spoonvonstup - [<--- Gargoyles Music Video Database]
posted @ Sun, Nov 11, 2007 12:24:22 pm EST from 192.246.231.195

Huge international army? I don't believe the Quarrymen have even expanded beyond the New York City limits yet.
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"Bang, bang, Maxwell's silver hammer came down on his head. Bang, bang, Maxwell's silver hammer made sure that he was dead." - The Beatles
posted @ Sun, Nov 11, 2007 12:21:34 pm EST from 76.205.97.110

I don't believe the Quarrymen are a "huge, multinational army" yet.


But yeah, the Illuminati are extremely scary.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Sun, Nov 11, 2007 11:55:19 am EST from 209.162.56.40

DHP> I have to agree with Greg B and Patrick on this one, just because the Illuminati don't have thousands of members to call upon doesn't mean they still can't be a huge influence on world affairs. Let's take a look at some of the few known members of the society.

Mr. Duval: Immortal guardian of the Holy Grail and Lord of Castle Carbonek which Greg has described as a kind of mini-Avalon. This gives him a virtually unassailable base from which to direct his shadow empire. Plus I would expect Duval to be immensely wealthy and powerful in his own right, having gathered all kinds of treasure and perhaps even the odd magical talisman over the centuries

Quincy: A man who for decades has had possessed almost unrestricted access to the leader of the free world. I can easily see Quincy setting himself up as a kind of Alfred to any given president's Bruce Wayne, subtly guiding him with a little "homespun wisdom". Who knows how much of American policy over the years bears the mark of this man.

Mace Malone: Mace's knowledge of organised crime allowed the Illuminati to pretty much hold the criminal underworld to ransom.

John Castaway: A genocidal fanatic with a marked talent for oratory, Castaway has been able to build up a sizable following. Illuminati funding has transformed a smattering of mercenaries and concerned citizens into a private army/ proto-terrorist organisation.

David Xanatos: A machiavellian Genius and owner of a multinational national company that is "bigger than most countries you could name". I hardly need to tell this group the kind of vast power, influence and resources X has been able to amass all on his lonesome.

With only these individuals the Illuminati already has under it's influence an ancient relic of extraordinary power, a magical island, a huge multinational, a private army, the criminal underworld of New York at least and the leader of the free world. And these are just five guys, and I haven't even mentioned Thailog, Shari, Hacker or Matt.
Algernon
"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up" -C. S. Lewis
posted @ Sun, Nov 11, 2007 11:21:28 am EST from 86.41.212.159

History is full of examples of small groups of people having a huge influence on society. At 666 members, the Illuminati memberhip numbers more than the number of men who were the driving force behind the American Revolutionary War, the Communist Revolution in Russia, or the rise of Nazism in Germany... combined.

229 days left until The Gathering 2008 in Chicago, Illinois!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"Who controls the British crown? Who keeps the metric system down? We do! We do!"
posted @ Sun, Nov 11, 2007 9:02:01 am EST from 76.205.97.110

DPH> No offense, but what you imagined, and I base this on ideas you pitched to TGS about the Illuminati, was Cobra.

Just remember, as Alex Garg pointed out. You add up both branches of Congress, the Executive Branch and the Judicial and you still get less than 666 people. Look at how much influence they have.
Greg Bishansky
"Don't you ever, EVER compare me to 'Family Guy,' you hear me Kyle? Compare me to 'Family Guy' again and so help me, I will kill you where you stand! Do you have any idea what it's like? Everywhere I go: 'Hey Cartman you must like 'Family Guy,' right?' 'Hey, your sense of humor reminds me of "Family Guy" Cartman!' I am nothing like Family Guy! When I make jokes they are inherent to a story! Deep situational and emotional jokes based on what is relevant and has a point, not just one random interchangable joke after another!" -Cartman
posted @ Sun, Nov 11, 2007 2:20:56 am EST from 75.56.245.4

gxb - I know that I have problems with my perception of Greg Weisman's illuminati society. I've imagined much bigger than it really is, which might be the point. Perception is a great defense.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Sun, Nov 11, 2007 2:11:36 am EST from 71.29.242.171

Am example of Superdickery, youtube style:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Al7FeEZrH1E
Antiyonder
posted @ Sat, Nov 10, 2007 11:38:00 pm EST from 71.115.192.199

Antiyonder: That's assuming that all the members of the Illuminati were in Manhattan. Which they probably weren't. Quincy, for one, was probably in the White House.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Brooding in the tower. Watching o'er his lands. Holding every creature, helplessly they stand. Gaze into his prisms, knowing they are near. Leads them to the dungeons. Spectres numb with fear, they bow defeated." -Rush ("The Necromancer")
posted @ Sat, Nov 10, 2007 8:46:09 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

I wonder if the Illuminati members (aside from Xanatos) were able to avoid the broadcast. They'd probably have an understanding on sorcery right.
Antiyonder
posted @ Sat, Nov 10, 2007 8:23:38 pm EST from 71.115.192.199

Smashed people> I, too, prefer the idea that they never came out of the stone sleep. It may have been confusing to see a partially destroyed statue randomly here and ther, but I don't think people would have put two and two together. That, and it'd be way to disturbing for them to become flesh and severly injured humans. *shudders*
Asatira
posted @ Sat, Nov 10, 2007 8:16:35 pm EST from 68.119.95.5

DPH> You seem to have a problem grasping the concept of influence over mass numbers. Six-hundred sixty-six members is not small. I know you expected several thousand members, but keep in mind, the Illuminati is a SECRET SOCIETY. They don't control the world so much as they influence and manipulate.

Owen may not be a member of the Illuminati, but he's a resource they have threw Xanatos. Same with the Quarrymen through Castaway. They just need members in key places, and they can get what they need accomplished.

So, who's to say they didn't participate in covering up what happened? They may well have, but it doesn't mean everyone involved was a member, or even knew who was behind it.

Again, the Illuminati is a SECRET society. They don't need force, they have guile and subtly.

And remember, nine members of the Supreme Court have an awesome amount of influence over the country.
Greg Bishansky
"Don't you ever, EVER compare me to 'Family Guy,' you hear me Kyle? Compare me to 'Family Guy' again and so help me, I will kill you where you stand! Do you have any idea what it's like? Everywhere I go: 'Hey Cartman you must like 'Family Guy,' right?' 'Hey, your sense of humor reminds me of "Family Guy" Cartman!' I am nothing like Family Guy! When I make jokes they are inherent to a story! Deep situational and emotional jokes based on what is relevant and has a point, not just one random interchangable joke after another!" -Cartman
posted @ Sat, Nov 10, 2007 7:57:40 pm EST from 75.56.245.4

Michael Ejercito - <I wonder what security camera footage revealed during the night the episode "The Mirror" took place.> Probably nothing out of the ordinary. Puck's spell was a big one and took a lot of energy to cast, but not a lot to undo. I'm pretty sure that Puck put a lot of work into that spell to cover up his tracks. On the other hand, the security footage during CoS is a bit more telling. Quick, let's apply a tiny amount of logic to the situation during CoS. I don't know what happenned last night, but I do know the security cameras worked. So I rewind the security footage to just before sunset to see what happens. Now the question remains as to what I see. If the security footage wasn't doctored, then I see the truth. Prior to the 36-32 revelation, I had believed the society was big enough to have the truth about CoS completely covered up by sunrise the 1st morning so that nobody would be the wiser.

TDIGUH - Funny thing is I asked a while back about Thailog's location during CoS. Oh well, that blows one theory that I had out the window. (That theory being Thailog was part of a reserve force in case Xanatos's efforts were foiled on the 1st attempt. Still, I can't help but think that as soon as Xanatos came up with his plan, he immediately had more robots ordered.) That still lives the Pack's location and the mutates location a mystery during CoS.
dph_of_rules
posted @ Sat, Nov 10, 2007 7:30:34 pm EST from 71.29.242.171

I hope that the shattered humans stayed stone. Because if they'd reverted to flesh and blood - I'd rather not think about that.

Of course, there'd then be news reports about a lot of stone fragments mysteriously showing up on the sidewalks.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Sat, Nov 10, 2007 7:16:07 pm EST from 4.245.21.170

I'm really tired of the delays. I hope that when Greg gets to the question about Bad Guys this month, that he'll tell us as much as he knows.

PATRICK >> Gargoyles turn to organic "stone" by a biological function that depends on their being alive. The humans (and Thailog) turned to real stone through magic. So it is possible that the rules work very differently. It could have happened at dawn, after the spell broke, or not at all. I doubt it happened at dawn or there would have been a big public uproar about the body parts, in addition to the news coverage of the collective memory loss. For the same reason I somewhat doubt that it happened after the spell broke, either.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Sat, Nov 10, 2007 6:23:03 pm EST from 209.162.56.40

According to the SLG site,The Bad Guys #1 is coming out in December. So is apparently Gargoyles #7 as well. We're gonna get 2 fixes of Gargoyles comics. Yay! So is the trade paperback as well. Whatta a busy month for the budget.
But I have a question: when it was mentioned on the SLG site about the need of the corrected reprint for Gargoyles #6, I'm under the impression that it would be issued out to the stores that ordered it. But does that mean that we, the reader, has to pay for the comic again? I mean will the comic stores be told about the screw up? Anyone know? Sorry if this might've been mentioned before.
DK2
posted @ Sat, Nov 10, 2007 5:59:12 pm EST from 24.70.95.205

Did the shattered gargoyles at Castle Wyvern turn to flesh at sunset?

230 days left until The Gathering 2008 in Chicago, Illinois!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka
posted @ Sat, Nov 10, 2007 5:20:24 pm EST from 76.205.97.110

MICHAEL >> I'm sure she did die.

SEBASTIAN >> The first time I saw the Price, I thought Xanatos was pretty callous towards Owen, too.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Sat, Nov 10, 2007 3:23:18 pm EST from 209.162.56.40

Fox said 'I know what you did last summer. . .'
Crazy - [crazyluckyproductions at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Nov 10, 2007 3:06:50 pm EST from 67.163.120.238

Would that lady whose arms were shot off have bled to death
Michael Ejercito - [mejercit at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Sat, Nov 10, 2007 2:28:59 pm EST from 75.142.107.43

Sebastian> "1. Does the animation seem different from other episodes (at least earlier ones?). I think the facial expressions are done especially well in this episode."

I agree with you there. The first time seeing it, I was slightly blown away by how different the animation was.

In a good way, of course.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Thirty-Six. Nine.
posted @ Sat, Nov 10, 2007 2:18:51 pm EST from 75.60.188.110

Well, the lady with her arms shot off got a very rude wake-up call.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Brooding in the tower. Watching o'er his lands. Holding every creature, helplessly they stand. Gaze into his prisms, knowing they are near. Leads them to the dungeons. Spectres numb with fear, they bow defeated." -Rush ("The Necromancer")
posted @ Sat, Nov 10, 2007 1:01:00 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

What happened to the shattered remains of humans?

Did they turn into pieces of flesh?
Michael Ejercito - [mejercit at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Sat, Nov 10, 2007 12:04:31 pm EST from 75.142.107.43

Matt: If I had to guess, I'd say that at sunrise, there was a quiet transition, but at sunset, Thailog burst from his organic stone shell, and then immediately turned into real stone. But I'm just basing this off what happens when a gargoyle falls asleep versus what happens when they wake up.


I also think it's amusing that there's more than one spell in the Grimorum that involves hibernation of some sort, and ends with colorful hyperbole implying the spell lasts forever. The original Magus must have had a fondness for those.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Brooding in the tower. Watching o'er his lands. Holding every creature, helplessly they stand. Gaze into his prisms, knowing they are near. Leads them to the dungeons. Spectres numb with fear, they bow defeated." -Rush ("The Necromancer")
posted @ Sat, Nov 10, 2007 10:03:15 am EST from 71.62.198.251

Yeah, we'll have to ask Greg about this. TDIGUH seems to imply he was stuck solid 24 hours a day, but since Demona's spell turned people to ACTUAL stone and a gargoyle's stone sleep only turns them into a stone-like organic substance there has to be some transition, right? Did Thailog turn from one to another without visible affect or did he wake up at sunset only to immediatly turn to actual stone per the spell?
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Sat, Nov 10, 2007 8:42:04 am EST from 24.207.163.239

Todd: Interesting. Now I wonder if Thailog turned into regular stone, too. Greg said that the spell turned those affected by it into actual stone. Judging by the words of the spell (all who see this, all who hear this), it probably turned Thailog into actual stone.

Now I have this great image of him waking up in the TV Room, wondering what the hell happened, finding Xanatos and Owen in the Great Hall just after the gargoyles left, and telling him: "Can you schedule an appointment with Anton? I'm missing a huge chunk of time..." and then he turns to stone again when the sun rises.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"The cow jumped over yesterday's moon, and the lock ran away with the key. You know what you like and you like what you know, but there is no jam for tea." -Ian Anderson
posted @ Sat, Nov 10, 2007 8:28:45 am EST from 71.62.198.251

I don't know if anyone has read the entry for November 10 at "Ask Greg" yet, but it's definitely worth it. We now know where Thailog was during the events of "City of Stone" - and I must say that's not a fate that I'd wish upon even him! (After this, I can applaud Goliath's judgment all the more in immediately ordering Lexington to mute Demona's broadcast at Jeffrey Robbins' house.)
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Sat, Nov 10, 2007 6:41:29 am EST from 4.244.213.180

Here's a comment from Greg that should answer your question:

In "The Price", Hudson does know that Macbeth and Demona have been alive a LONG time. That makes them Immortal on at least one level. When he says immortal in this one, he's only referring to their obviously long life spans. But at this time, he doesn't know about their link, their inability to die unless one kills the other. The fact that they've lived that long might only mean that they've never been killed and have some kind of eternal youth spell or something. So Hudson can believe that Macbeth has FINALLY died when the first robot bites the dust.
Antiyonder
posted @ Sat, Nov 10, 2007 5:04:59 am EST from 71.115.218.238

Sorry about the double post.

A general Gargoyles question I got when watching The Price.

How much do the Gargoyles know about the connection between Demona and Macbeth? It is hard sometimes to separate what I know from what they know. They were obviously surprised to find that Macbeth had survived (am I correct in thinking he would have survived even if it wasn't a robot?), yet Hudson knows that Demona and Macbeth are immortal.
I can't think of a time when either of them specifically say they are immortal (Demona said she used that spell, but that is different). Also Demona sometimes talks about the centuries implying she was there, but the clan also refer to themselves as having lived for over 1000 years.
I just thought it was interesting, and it seemed to specific to find an answer on in the archives (I browsed them a while ago, and I don't remember this being discussed).

Thanks for any insight.
Sebastian
posted @ Sat, Nov 10, 2007 1:03:30 am EST from 128.12.69.35

Just watched The Price, and there were two things that stuck me about it.

1. Does the animation seem different from other episodes (at least earlier ones?). I think the facial expressions are done especially well in this episode.

2. Xanatos has always treated Owen kindly. And in general I understand him when he says, "service is its own reward." However, in this episode Xanatos is downright rude to him multiple times. When Owen lingers with Hudson, when he suggests "macbeth" is a better servant, and when he seems unfazed by Owen's sacrifice.

Anyone know about the first? or have thoughts about the second?

Fun episode with lots of good lines and emotions.
Sebastian
posted @ Sat, Nov 10, 2007 12:56:25 am EST from 128.12.69.35

I wonder what security camera footage revealed during the night the episode "The Mirror" took place.
Michael Ejercito - [mejercit at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Fri, Nov 9, 2007 9:59:37 pm EST from 75.142.107.43

After his escape from prison, the U.S. government froze Wolf'd bank accounts.
Michael Ejercito - [mejercit at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Fri, Nov 9, 2007 9:56:11 pm EST from 75.142.107.43

Maybe the people who rob banks during the day are the ones who just crave attention. I mean, I think it takes more professionalism to bypass alarms and such than it is to grab a ski mask and fire a gun into the air. Which leads one to believe robbing the bank at night was probably Dingo's idea. He seemed to find it distasteful to begin with, but probably figured as long as it was going to go forward, might as well be discreet.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"The cow jumped over yesterday's moon, and the lock ran away with the key. You know what you like and you like what you know, but there is no jam for tea." -Ian Anderson
posted @ Fri, Nov 9, 2007 9:30:38 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

DPH: Though that's a sad delay, all I can say is this:

I know what's on MY X-Mas list :)
Phoenician - [<---My Kinda Useless Blog]
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Fri, Nov 9, 2007 9:05:49 pm EST from 157.242.222.216

SLG just updated their release schedule page - http://www.slgcomic.com/info-exec/display/shipping . Bad Guys Issue #1 is no longer listed as being released in November, but December. This puts gargoyles #7, bad guys #1, and the 1st compilation of gargoyles set to be released in December. I thought bad guys issue #1 was on track to be released this month.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Fri, Nov 9, 2007 8:13:29 pm EST from 71.29.242.223

The only criminals who rob banks at night at the ones who know how to bypass alarm systems and crack safes. A criminal who just wants to wave a gun and get money will rob a bank during the day. And if they're a little smarter than the average bear, they'll do it while the police or otherwise distracted... such as the bank robbery that took place around here a few weeks ago while a funeral was going on 20 miles away for a local police officer who had died in a car wreck.

231 days left until The Gathering 2008 in Chicago, Illinois!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"This ain't over!" - Charles Bronson
posted @ Fri, Nov 9, 2007 7:53:30 pm EST from 76.205.97.110

When the gargoyles foiled the Pack's bank robbery at the beginning of "Upgrade", Wolf shouted just before retreating, "This isn't over!", the same words that Hakon shouted after his initial attack on Castle Wyvern was repulsed. But in Hakon's second attack, he massacred most of the gargoyles, leaving only a few devastated survivors. The Pack's second clash with the gargoyles in "Upgrade" led to Goliath, Hudson, Bronx, and Elisa being temporarily taken prisoner, but rescued by the trio, with no permanent damage.

No wonder that Hakon looked upon Wolf as an unworthy descendant.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Fri, Nov 9, 2007 7:08:34 pm EST from 4.245.16.165

At least Wolf had the sense to commit the bank robbery at night as opposed to during the day. Of course I think the only real purpose of a bank robbery during the daytime is to force several police officers to be a certain location at a certain time . . ie . . a bank robbery during the daytime is to be a distraction from something else going on.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Fri, Nov 9, 2007 4:08:11 pm EST from 71.29.242.223

I think Wolf finally realized they were barely surviving as they were, trying to keep out of sight. They're already fugitives, so it'd make little difference to begin robbing banks. Bigger buck for the bang.
Asatira
posted @ Fri, Nov 9, 2007 11:39:25 am EST from 131.204.97.9

I think he just figured it would be fun and exciting, and make them even more rich.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Fri, Nov 9, 2007 10:32:33 am EST from 63.225.147.72

I don't see where you get that Wolf wanted to compete with the terrorists...
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Fri, Nov 9, 2007 9:19:55 am EST from 24.207.163.239

Matt> According to the Gargwiki on the City of Stone Part 1 page, "Greg had plans to bring back the bank robbers in the spin-off Bad Guys, presumably as adversaries for the Redemption Squad."

So maybe when Wolf saw the terrorists, something sparked in him to decide to turn to a life of crime to compete against or ultimately defeat the terrorists in some way, shape or form. There is some kind of connection that exists that we don't yet know.
tonY Tini - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
posted @ Fri, Nov 9, 2007 9:08:04 am EST from 159.240.11.254

Why does Wolf need to see a news broadcast of a bank holdup to get the idea to do it himself? Isn't robbing a bank the most obvious crime there is? And the fact that the terrorists were caught and the hostages freed should've clued Wolf into the fact that most people get caught...
Guess thats what happens when Wolf is in charge... not the brightest Pack member.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Fri, Nov 9, 2007 8:22:52 am EST from 24.207.163.239

An "interesting" question and answer from Ask Greg as of late:

"Anonymous writes...

Greg, does the Greek god Priapus smile on Gargoyle males with large beaks?

By that I mean, does the rumor about men with big feet/ears/noses hold true with gargs like, say, Brooklyn?

Greg responds...

I'll leave that to your imagination."

I'm not familiar with Priapus and in the interests of keeping the comment room appropriate for all ages, I'll let anyone who's inclined to reserach for themselves. But the intent of the question is pretty clear. "As above, so below?" ;)
Demonskrye
posted @ Fri, Nov 9, 2007 7:39:31 am EST from 209.6.249.41

Greg's just provided us with another example of how interconnected the Gargoyles Universe is (the link between the Pack and the bank robbers in "City of Stone Part One").
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Fri, Nov 9, 2007 7:37:51 am EST from 4.244.209.7

Does anybody know where I can get photos of the Cyberbiotics Airfortress 1 or 2? I would like to work out approximate ratios for how much the height is compared to the length and width.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Fri, Nov 9, 2007 3:08:21 am EST from 71.29.242.223

Does anyone have any decent pictures of the helipad on the north side of the Eyrie Building as seen in "City of Stone" (I think)?
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Thu, Nov 8, 2007 10:47:38 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Thank you, yeah, I'm not sure either. Maybe I'll just make one for myself or ask Greg when the queue opens up. Think it'll open up when the reprint of Gargoyles #6 is released?
tonY Tini - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
posted @ Thu, Nov 8, 2007 2:59:47 pm EST from 159.240.11.254

Toni> It'd be getting in grey areas, definitely. I'm not sure how much Greg and Disney would consider the Illuminati ranking system (which is what you're referring to. Good job by the way) their property. If they did, you'd be making money off their idea. I can't say more because I'm not sure what the copyright law would be, especially since this is pretty original.
Asatira
posted @ Thu, Nov 8, 2007 2:53:17 pm EST from 131.204.217.195

Well if I decided to mass produce the t-shirt and sell it, that would be illegal, correct?

Like the idea that there are 666 members belongs to Greg Weisman, so using his idea on a t-shirt is stealing, no?
Anthony Tini - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
posted @ Thu, Nov 8, 2007 2:36:51 pm EST from 159.240.11.254

Why would it be illegal? Numbers, eyes and pyramids are all in the public domain, I believe. And you claim you did this work yourself. So... I think you are good.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Thu, Nov 8, 2007 2:32:25 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Thanks. I was thinking of making it into a t-shirt. Would that be legal?
Anthony Tini - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
posted @ Thu, Nov 8, 2007 2:25:20 pm EST from 159.240.11.254

A. Tini> Wow. Very nice.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Thirty-Six. Nine.
posted @ Thu, Nov 8, 2007 1:40:17 pm EST from 75.60.188.110

Guess the site is working again.

TTTony> Yeah, that was a pretty cool Illuminati pic you did.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Thu, Nov 8, 2007 1:17:10 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Me too. It seems to all be working fine now. Maybe the server was down.

I hope Greg W answers Blaise's question coming up in the queue.
Anthony Tini - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
posted @ Thu, Nov 8, 2007 11:36:00 am EST from 159.240.11.254

Tony> Cool. ^..^

Yeah, I had trouble getting in today too. I check here periodically while I'm at work, so I was disappointed I couldn't have the CR with my breakfast. ;P
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Thu, Nov 8, 2007 11:12:33 am EST from 199.38.51.134

Something must be wrong. The time is an hour off and Latest Responses and Unanswered Questions aren't working.
Anthony Tini - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
posted @ Thu, Nov 8, 2007 11:41:58 am EST from 159.240.11.254

Kerry (Kth) Boyd> Not long. I created the numbers in excel to have them in a grid. Then using MSPaint, I made them into a triangle. Then I found a picture of the "All Seeing Eye" on the web and then I just overlaid the numbers on top of that picture, and I think the result is pretty neat looking. I love messing around in Paint.

All> Anyone have any trouble getting on this morning? I've been trying since 8:30am and haven't been able to get on until just now.
Anthony Tini - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
posted @ Thu, Nov 8, 2007 11:35:45 am EST from 159.240.11.254

Don't mind me... Just lurking around the CR...

I have to admit that a lot of you provide great conversation. I come by to read the comments a lot. :D
The One Known As Mochi - [rolandsteinert at hotmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>T.T)> Damn this homework... It's almost done...
posted @ Thu, Nov 8, 2007 1:56:36 am EST from 72.199.226.114

Guandalug: Good to hear. I'll get in touch with you in a day or two about organizing everything. I have all or most of the text saved as it was posted on the forums, complete with image URLs. Probably some emoticons would have to be saved and re-uploaded, as well as all my images, but I'm hoping that having the text saved the way I do will make it all a bit easier.
Jamesman
posted @ Thu, Nov 8, 2007 1:02:11 am EST from 68.198.217.187

Me, I think one of the reasons Xanatos is portrayed the way he is in most fanfic is perhaps people read too deeply into the last thing he said in "Hunter's Moon". But then, most of my favorite writers were Realist.

Of course, I also blame Demona's portrayal in most fanfic on people reading too deeply into Goliath's "healing power of a child's love" spiel.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"If I had a quarter for every time I've heard you say that since you learned to talk, I'd have a private jet on twenty-four hour standby." -Tony Soprano
posted @ Wed, Nov 7, 2007 7:56:46 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

MATT - Yes, I'd forgotten about that.

I remember speculating once that part of Xanatos's purpose in letting the gargoyles stay at Castle Wyvern was to keep Elisa from attempting to expose any of his schemes that she might be aware of; if she does so and Xanatos gets investigated, the gargoyles' haven would be endangered in the process, which she wouldn't want. (That idea was inspired by Greg Weisman's explanation as to why Xanatos would choose to turn Elisa's own brother into a Mutate: she'd be less likely to make any moves against him if her brother was on his team.)
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Wed, Nov 7, 2007 7:19:33 pm EST from 4.245.16.139

Tony> Nifty! How long did that take?
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Nov 7, 2007 6:02:22 pm EST from 24.98.74.35

Let me know what you guys think of my picture.

http://www.geocities.com/tinitinytony/illuminati.GIF
Anthony Tini - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
posted @ Wed, Nov 7, 2007 4:52:34 pm EST from 159.240.11.254

I don't think Xanatos's intentions were ever malicious towards the gargoyles. I think, if anything, they'd be best described as callous. I think he saw them as tools; means to a greater means. I think he still views them in that way, he's just a bit friendlier towards them and maybe a bit less reckless in how he tries to use them.

I'm curious what Xanatos is like once you remove all his layers; get to that core where we might find genuine emotion and empathy. It's there, I'm sure, probably closer to the surface than he's willing to recognize. In a way, it's a sort of denial about who he really is. A lot like Demona in that respect, but not as obvious.

I think Fox's transformation to the werefox is quite interesting in this vein. A beast that operated on instinct and emotion rather than logic -- the exact opposite of what Xanatos and Fox try to represent. Although I think Fox is perhaps more genuine now given her experiences with the Eye and the birth of Alexander.

There's a lot more there to reflect on but I'm late for class.
Gorebash
posted @ Wed, Nov 7, 2007 4:42:27 pm EST from 207.206.239.1

Completely off topic, I was watching Leader of the Pack on the DVR, and it always sends a chill down my spine when Bronx is going down with the ship and he howls at the moon. It's like him yelling, "Help!" and just at the last second Goliath grabs him. I get worried every time that he isn't going to get saved in time.
Anthony Tini - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
posted @ Wed, Nov 7, 2007 2:54:40 pm EST from 159.240.11.254

Erk, I mean "they're"
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Wed, Nov 7, 2007 1:16:40 pm EST from 71.34.42.197

TONY >> No, he won't be *as* malicious. He won't sic the Steel Clan or the Pack on them, for example. He won't outright kill them, or cause extreme harm, or mutate them. I don't see him setting up any more acid traps to melt Goliath. But I'm sure he'll continue to try to use them to protect his castle, and manipulate them into helping him in other ways (as he did in, for example, Vows).

MATT >> I think that they don't want violent confrontation, or widespread social change, to happen without their control. By controlling the Quarrymen, they have some control over violent confrontation and can make sure it doesn't interfere with their plans. They can harness it for their own uses as well. They didn't contact Jason and later Jon because they needed them, but to get them under their thumbs.

Likewise, they wouldn't want gargoyle-human integration (or human-New Olympian integration) of the sort that the Minority Protection Act represents, unless they can control how it happens, so that it doesn't threaten their own power. Part of that will be to incorporate gargoyles into their membership, but part of it will be to make sure that gargoyle "rights" don't erode established human power. At least, that's what I think their after.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Wed, Nov 7, 2007 1:15:01 pm EST from 71.34.42.197

Tony "No catches, no tricks, no strings."

Yeah, because we all know that Xanatos would never, ever lie. :P
Greg Bishansky
"Don't you ever, EVER compare me to 'Family Guy,' you hear me Kyle? Compare me to 'Family Guy' again and so help me, I will kill you where you stand! Do you have any idea what it's like? Everywhere I go: 'Hey Cartman you must like 'Family Guy,' right?' 'Hey, your sense of humor reminds me of "Family Guy" Cartman!' I am nothing like Family Guy! When I make jokes they are inherent to a story! Deep situational and emotional jokes based on what is relevant and has a point, not just one random interchangable joke after another!" -Cartman
posted @ Wed, Nov 7, 2007 11:11:48 am EST from 75.56.245.4

Greg> "No catches, no tricks, no strings." (Hunter's Moon Pt 3.) Xanatos has brought them back from oblivion and they have repaid him with the gift of his son. So I guess you can say that they are even, but while you have a feeling Xanatos is up to something and will exploit them again if need be, I just get this feeling that Xanatos, Fox, and Owen have a "live and let live" attitude with the Gargoyles. I do not disagree with you that Xanatos operates on his own agenda and he appears to include the Gargoyles in "Phase 1" of his plans. (Gargoyles #3)

Also, I do agree with you that 100% Xanatos has plans for them, but I don't believe they will be as malicious as 1994/95 Xanatos would have been.
Anthony Tini - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
posted @ Wed, Nov 7, 2007 11:06:13 am EST from 159.240.11.254

Of course. I agree completely.

And I don't think the Illuminati want to wipe out the gargoyles right now. But if they ever feel they're a threat, they have the Quarrymen and they can kill most or all of them. And I'm sure they would do whatever they felt necessary to protect their plans. Whaterver ultimate plans they have.

(and of course I meant to say "didn't he take", not "tack".
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Wed, Nov 7, 2007 10:34:21 am EST from 71.34.42.197

Vaevictis> Indeed. Didn't Xanatos end up getting, well, exactly what he wanted as far back as "Awakening"? I do believe his gratitude was genuine, but it was not his only reason. Rescuing the gargoyles and allowing them to move back in wasn't done for only altruistic reasons. It was also done because, it benefits him. I am 100% sure that he still has plans for them.
Greg Bishansky
"Don't you ever, EVER compare me to 'Family Guy,' you hear me Kyle? Compare me to 'Family Guy' again and so help me, I will kill you where you stand! Do you have any idea what it's like? Everywhere I go: 'Hey Cartman you must like 'Family Guy,' right?' 'Hey, your sense of humor reminds me of "Family Guy" Cartman!' I am nothing like Family Guy! When I make jokes they are inherent to a story! Deep situational and emotional jokes based on what is relevant and has a point, not just one random interchangable joke after another!" -Cartman
posted @ Wed, Nov 7, 2007 10:27:35 am EST from 75.56.245.4

Yes, I think it is control. Consider the Quarrymen:

A mob of angry, frightened, armed people is a dangerous, loose element.
A mob of angry, frightened, armed people who you finance and control is a tool, and can be a weapon if used shrewdly. I foresee that eventually, as the Quarrymen grows, they will also target groups who seem to be supporting the gargoyles. At that point the Illuminati has an easy way to point them at some organization and pull the trigger.

However, don't forget that they spent resources to arm the Quarrymen with very dangerous weapons they wouldn't have had otherwise. They deliberately made the Quarrymen very dangerous to gargoyles. I don't think they would be bothered if the group killed half a dozen.

But maybe they want to back the gargoyles into a corner using these Quarrymen, so that they can sweep to the rescue and have control over them, too. Look at Xanatos. He didn't back them into a corner, but didn't he tack advantage of their situation. Sure, he was repaying an obligation for his son, and he doesn't have total control over the clan. But now they protect HIS castle, and he can keep an eye on them.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Wed, Nov 7, 2007 10:20:54 am EST from 71.34.42.197

Matt> Let alone the Gargoyles, what does the Illuminati want with Xanatos, or Thailog, or Quincy, or Hacker, or Matt, or Shari, or Castaway, or anyone for that matter?

I think the answer is simple. Power. Control. Influence.
Anthony Tini - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
posted @ Wed, Nov 7, 2007 9:38:16 am EST from 159.240.11.254

Todd> If your theory is correct then the Illuminati also doesn't want the gargoyles to be making headlines in public confrontations OR making peace with humans. In which case one has to ask what does the Illuminati want with the gargoyles?
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Wed, Nov 7, 2007 8:28:39 am EST from 24.207.163.239

I think that if Greg's intention was to have the Illuminati out to commit genocide on the gargoyles, he would never have had Hacker say so - at least, not so soon after the set-up of the Quarrymen. That would be revealing too much too early.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Wed, Nov 7, 2007 7:45:12 am EST from 4.244.212.188

For some reason, I would not be surprised at all of down the line, Goliath is offered membership in the Illuminati. He wouldn't take it, but it would not surprise me if the offer is extended.

Honestly, I don't think the Illuminati's goals are to destroy the gargoyles. That is too simplistic.
Greg Bishansky
"Don't you ever, EVER compare me to 'Family Guy,' you hear me Kyle? Compare me to 'Family Guy' again and so help me, I will kill you where you stand! Do you have any idea what it's like? Everywhere I go: 'Hey Cartman you must like 'Family Guy,' right?' 'Hey, your sense of humor reminds me of "Family Guy" Cartman!' I am nothing like Family Guy! When I make jokes they are inherent to a story! Deep situational and emotional jokes based on what is relevant and has a point, not just one random interchangable joke after another!" -Cartman
posted @ Wed, Nov 7, 2007 2:03:06 am EST from 75.56.245.4

Sorry about double-posting.

One more thing about threats, and what the gargoyles could pose to the Illuminati: consider that anytime an oppressed group rises up and demands rights (women, blacks, gays, whatever) it is a direct threat to the power held by the ones on top. We don't know how powerful the Illuminati are, but humans are the species on top right now and if the concept of gargoyle rights gains any currency, it will be a direct threat to humanity's absolute power. That's reason enough for racism, fear, and hatred whether or not gargoyles are seen as demons.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Wed, Nov 7, 2007 1:57:55 am EST from 71.34.42.197

He has exactly as many resources as the Illuminati gives him. And I don't trust the Illuminati not to wipe out gargoyles (including Thailog when he's no longer useful). They're intelligent enough that they (the higher ups) surely know they aren't aliens/demons/extradimensional abominations but they'd surely destroy them if they considered them a threat to their long-term plans. And since increased gargoyle-human contact, whether peaceful or violent, will probably have significant impacts on the world, it could easily send their plans awry.

As to the Labyrinth clan, remember that only Delilah is part human, and only 10%. She still turns to stone, and anything targetting that would get her too.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Wed, Nov 7, 2007 1:55:00 am EST from 71.34.42.197

Gorebash> Castaway saw the disc Robyn stole from Nightstone. Demona's statistical specs for her plan, in "Hunter's Moon" Part Three. He knows about her plans, alright.

As for whether he'll create a virus? I honestly doubt he has the resources.
Greg Bishansky
"Don't you ever, EVER compare me to 'Family Guy,' you hear me Kyle? Compare me to 'Family Guy' again and so help me, I will kill you where you stand! Do you have any idea what it's like? Everywhere I go: 'Hey Cartman you must like 'Family Guy,' right?' 'Hey, your sense of humor reminds me of "Family Guy" Cartman!' I am nothing like Family Guy! When I make jokes they are inherent to a story! Deep situational and emotional jokes based on what is relevant and has a point, not just one random interchangable joke after another!" -Cartman
posted @ Wed, Nov 7, 2007 12:57:24 am EST from 75.56.245.4

Todd: Does Castaway know of Demona's plans, the praying gargoyle, and all that? I didn't think he did. And I'd expect to develop a virus he'd need a sample gargoyle or gargate (if not a few) to experiment on in order to perfect his virus. Even then I'd bet the Labyrinth clan wouldn't be affected because of their Human/Gargoyle hybrid nature. And with the Illuminati having a hand in Castaway and the Quarrymen I bet it wouldn't happen. The Illuminati strike me as a very old, very calculating group. They might try to keep the gargoyles away from interfering with their plans, but at the same time I don't think they'd approve of killing the entire race. Granted this is just me. There's no reason to think they (the Illuminati) weren't cold blooded bastards, but it strikes me that such an old organization doesn't last that long without at least some intelligence -- and part of that intelligence being you never completely destroy something because you never know when it might come in handy later.
Gorebash
posted @ Wed, Nov 7, 2007 12:47:50 am EST from 71.243.36.95

Vox and myself are planning on going next year and probably bringing at least one of our best friends. When we do go we plan on attending everything we possibly can.
EthanGilchrist - [ethan at randominformation dot com]
"I wouldn't wanna live in a world without grudges." -Jack Terrycloth of the World Inferno Friendship Society
posted @ Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:26:29 pm EST from 66.56.6.148

Some of the images in those Ebay auctions look identical. Either the cels in question are only one or two frames apart, or something is fishy.
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"There's no need to be nice on the way up, 'cause you're not coming down." - Genesis, "Paperlate"
posted @ Tue, Nov 6, 2007 7:45:16 pm EST from 76.205.97.110

A crazy idea that I've occasionally had, and which resurfaced again recently:

What if Castaway decided to, instead of going after the gargoyles with electrified hammers, release a virus specially tailored to attack and kill gargates and only gargates (maybe something designed to destroy the organic stone-like substance that they change to during the daytime)?

Though it would be less dramatic than the conventional Quarryman approach, I think that Castaway would find it appealing because of its parallel to Demona's own scheme in "Hunter's Moon". "Poetic justice! I can destroy that entire race of monsters the same way that the demon plotted to destroy us!"
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Tue, Nov 6, 2007 7:42:19 pm EST from 4.244.211.27

Well, at the Banquet this past convention, Greg did admit that whatever Titania said, it calmed Fox down. So it was something calming. Perhaps she said "the walrus was Paul."
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Looking through the bent-back tulips to see how the other half lives. Looking through a glass onion." -The Beatles
posted @ Tue, Nov 6, 2007 5:24:06 pm EST from 71.62.198.251

I hate to rain on everyone's parade, and I don't think this has been mentioned yet, but it appears that the Gargoyles #6 re-print won't be coming out until next Wednesday, Nov 14th. :(

http://www.diamondcomics.com/shipping/expected_111407.txt

No sign of a release date for Bad Guys either this month, but there is still the 21st (before Thanksgiving) and the 28th. Here's hoping.
Anthony Tini - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
posted @ Tue, Nov 6, 2007 4:17:50 pm EST from 159.240.11.254

Matt: some cels were probably obtained without a background and so a laser copy of something that looked like it fit the cel was added for presentation purposes. some of those cels say "w/background copy" on the COA and for those cels they usually have a copy of the correct background. those that say "cel only" will have a background that looked like it fit, but is usually the wrong background.

so it goes.
Gorebash
posted @ Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:45:34 am EST from 207.206.239.1

I want to know who "universallive" is and where he's getting all these cels. Probably from the Disney vault? Did you see he has other cells from other shows as well?
Anthony Tini - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
posted @ Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:40:39 am EST from 159.240.11.254

Those cells are very nice. Why do so many of them show the characters in front of the wrong backgrounds?
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Tue, Nov 6, 2007 11:28:31 am EST from 24.207.163.239

Gathering attendance I think has fluctuated from 80 (first year) to something like 250 or so (one of the LA cons). Patrick would be the best to ask, he probably has all the figures.

--

I loathe to advertise for others, but I have to here because it's too much of an opportunity to let slide. If you go to ebay and search for "gargoyles cel" or "gargoyles animation art" you'll find a ton of auctions both current and soon to start on some really amazing cels. There's one of Demona in a wedding dress. Some great shots of Goliath. I think there's one of Brooklyn as he's throwing up his hand to yell "Yo, Taxi" which is classic. Lots of season 1 stuff in there, which were done by Disney Japan and thus of exceptional quality. There's an especially sweet (and way expensive) one looking down on the whole clan from Awakenings just after they've woken up.

Chances are starting bids will be final bids. I don't think there's a big market for Gargoyles cels, so if you've ever wanted one and have 250 bucks or more that you're willing to spend, here you go.

250 too much? There's a bunch of animation art as well and those run about 75 bucks each. Animation art is usually the cleaned up and finalized pencil sketch that is used by the cel painter to create the cel.

All I own right now is one animation art piece I bought at the first Gathering in 1997 and had Greg and Keith David sign that year. I think I may have to pick up a cel for myself.
Gorebash
posted @ Tue, Nov 6, 2007 10:54:59 am EST from 207.206.239.1

What has been the average attendance count at The Gathering?

I'm pretty sure I'm going to the 2008 Gathering. I calculated that I'll be spending around $600-$700 if I can get some other people to come with me. I'm working on bringing my friends Micah and Tiff and my brother Mike and his g/f Heather. If I'm unsuccessful, I'll try bringing my best friend Ernest. If all that fails, then I need to decide if I want to go by myself.

Does everyone who plans on going to the Gathering planning on going to the Keith David Concert?
Anthony Tini - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
posted @ Tue, Nov 6, 2007 8:51:42 am EST from 159.240.11.254

RE Titania's Whisper: Greg has said if we ever have a gathering attendance of over 500 he would then be willing to reveal what Titania said to Fox.
Gorebash
posted @ Tue, Nov 6, 2007 8:26:19 am EST from 207.206.239.1

<< Peter Maza / Peter Choy / Petros Xanatos (Petros is the Greek version of Peter) >>

And Peter means "stone" ...

An argument could also be made that Mr. and Mrs. Maza liked the name Elizabeth so much that they gave both their daughters variations on it :)
Christine - [christine at sabledrake dot com]
posted @ Tue, Nov 6, 2007 3:35:31 am EST from 70.56.94.10

Jamesman> "I really don't know if gargoyles-fans could handle the potential weight of directing a 90k member forum to their website. My current folder for all the previous images totals 780 items totalling about 50MB, and again, I don't know how that site would handle it. And I don't even know if the offer is still there to host them (or on here)."

Let me just say it this way: Bring it on. ;)

The site HAS some disk space left, and 50MB ain't that much.... not at all. And I really don't mind some graphics thrown in.
Guandalug la'Fay - [guandalug at gargoyles-fans dot org]
It has been said that the world is a strange place. This is not true. The world is a VERY strange place.
posted @ Tue, Nov 6, 2007 1:59:45 am EST from 80.145.30.53

Maybe she told Fox her Illuminati membership ranking. Assuming she's part of the Illuminati of course:).
Antiyonder
posted @ Tue, Nov 6, 2007 12:11:51 am EST from 71.115.192.199

Titania farted? LOL
The One Known As Mochi - [rolandsteinert at hotmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>T.T)> Damn this homework... It's almost done...
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 11:34:37 pm EST from 72.199.226.114

oops, Wield not Yield - sorry-I guess I'll have to do some arc wielding to repair my vocabulary.
yes I'm kidding. I did say I hadn't watched it in a while. I'm a baaaad garg fan.
Wingless
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 11:30:20 pm EST from 99.245.254.123

Or I think I heard her say, "I just farted. Enjoy that smell as I exit. It's magical."
StonY tini - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
Tony is celebrating the existence of 100 episodes of Family Guy.
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 11:00:43 pm EST from 70.15.84.29

She says: "I know about that flamingo feathered thong that David wears."
Greg Bishansky
"Don't you ever, EVER compare me to 'Family Guy,' you hear me Kyle? Compare me to 'Family Guy' again and so help me, I will kill you where you stand! Do you have any idea what it's like? Everywhere I go: 'Hey Cartman you must like 'Family Guy,' right?' 'Hey, your sense of humor reminds me of "Family Guy" Cartman!' I am nothing like Family Guy! When I make jokes they are inherent to a story! Deep situational and emotional jokes based on what is relevant and has a point, not just one random interchangable joke after another!" -Cartman
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 10:53:57 pm EST from 75.56.245.4

She says, "Take care of your son. He's destined for greatness."
tonY tini - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
Tony is celebrating the existence of 100 episodes of Family Guy.
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 10:51:22 pm EST from 70.15.84.29

Jurgan > Yeah, I really don't know if gargoyles-fans could handle the potential weight of directing a 90k member forum to their website. My current folder for all the previous images totals 780 items totalling about 50MB, and again, I don't know how that site would handle it. And I don't even know if the offer is still there to host them (or on here).
Jamesman
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 10:35:17 pm EST from 68.198.217.187

Tempest: Greg has also said something along the lines of whatever he tells us, it won't live up to our expectations. So, better to keep it secret and let us speculate.
Asatira
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 10:32:01 pm EST from 68.119.95.120

I still wonder. But, Tempest, it is one of those things that Greg vows he'll never tell us.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 10:19:20 pm EST from 63.231.230.85

"Remember, remember the 5th of November,
The Gunpowder Treason and plot.
I see no reason why Gunpowder Treason
Should ever be forgot."

Are we every going to get tired of asking what Titania said to Fox?

235 days left until The Gathering 2008 in Chicago, Illinois!
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"Some things are better left unsaid. Some things are better off believed. Some things are better left unspoken." - Hall & Oates
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 9:41:10 pm EST from 76.205.97.110

It's "wield," not "yield."

Doh! Thanks, Jurgen. Of course, I knew that, and as I was typing it I said "wield" in my head. I had just read Wingless' post and I suppose somehow "yield" was in my head.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 8:41:38 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Jurgan> I agree. They cheated a little bit with the voice, but if the Captain spoke then that would have spoiled the surprise.
tonY tini - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
Tony is celebrating the existence of 100 episodes of Family Guy.
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 8:24:53 pm EST from 70.15.84.29

Titania and Fox: It's one of those things that works better if unsaid, personally, so I'm not inclined to speculate.

Tony: Er, Greg said that there's only been one other gargoyle-human pairing in history, didn't he? Anyway, too far-fetched for me.

Mmm. Great theories on the Magus's motivations. I don't have much to add, except that I believe it was a combination of his own fear (of being useless, nice touch) and prejudice, and following Princess Katherine's views.
incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream" -- Shirley Jackson
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 7:45:17 pm EST from 216.36.154.204

Does anyone know what Titania whispered to Fox in 'The Gathering'? Or does anyone have any idea what it could be?
Tempest - [tempestpotter at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 7:21:23 pm EST from 67.163.120.238

It's "wield," not "yield."

"Then we see a man in a white cloak speaking with Hakon, leading the audience to believe that Magus was the betrayer."

I thought it was always kind of a cheat that, while Ed Gilbert was still doing the Captain's voice, he made his voice sound like Jeff Bennett's Magus. The cloak I can buy, because he didn't want anyone to see him leaving, but why would the Captain feel the need to disguise his voice around Hakon? It seems like the only reason was to fool the audience, which isn't really fair or authentic.


Jamesman: This is certainly an acceptable place to ask your questions. I would suggest, though, that the best place to host your commentaries is not here but at Gargoyles fans. The link is just to your left, so you should probably get in touch with Guandalug la'Fay and see if he's willing to clear some space. On the other hand, that site is mostly text, so I'm not sure if it could host something heavy on images like your thread. But I think it's a good idea to host it somewhere, so that casual fan goons can come to a Gargoyles site to see more of your work and get sucked deeper into the fandom. Does anyone else have any ideas?
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 7:01:19 pm EST from 68.59.10.242

Vinnie: in regards to the counter-spell, my impression has always been that the Magus was aware of its existence and that it was one of the pages torn out. As far as he was concerned at the moment he cast the sleep spell, he was never going to reverse the spell, it was going to effectively kill the gargoyles. His reaction once he saw Katherine was effectively how much he screwed up, and couldn't reverse it.
Asatira
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 6:24:05 pm EST from 68.119.95.120

From my own memory it's something like:

"Hudson": What's all this?! Where's the Princess?
Magus: Dead. And could I but yield a sword I would send you all to join her... but this will have to do instead! *Commence Latin*
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 6:14:13 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Going from memory here, but the Magus quote involves the to be later named Hudson:
Hudson: where's the princess?
Magus: "Dead! and if I could but yield a sword you would join her, but this will have to do"

Considering I haven't watched it in quite some time, I'm lucky to get it that close-but hey, the show did have a big impact after all *smiles*
Wingless
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 6:05:34 pm EST from 99.245.254.123

I think Vinnie refers to earlier when the Magus first looked up the spell in the Grimorum. And I thik he may be right. They must have known that the gargoyles were necessary to protect the castle. And why would they run away? They're mindless beasts, right?

But I think Greg has said that the magus wasn't a powerful enough sorcerer to create his own spells, or he'd have been able to create a counterspell.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 5:54:53 pm EST from 63.231.230.85

I think he said something like this:

"If I had been trained in the sword I would send you all join her, but THIS will have to do!"

Something like that.
Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible . . . I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 4:00:19 pm EST from 157.242.65.30

It's my understanding that the original magus, the one who cast the humility spell on the gargoyles, also created the Grimorum. So he may have written the stone sleep spell down as well, although it could have been any magus since the Grimorum's creation to record the spell.

Vinnie, what gave you that impression? In "Awakenings" I saw an angry magus who thought his princess (and the woman he loved) killed and, in a moment of rage, did as best he could to "kill" the gargoyles. I forget the exact line, but I believe he says something along the lines of wishing he could kill the gargoyles, but couldn't, so the sleep spell would have to do. So if he's trying to kill the Gargoyles there's really no reason why he'd want to ever bring them back.

I would also think the gargoyles would simply run away as soon as they were awaken if the magus kept putting them to sleep all the time. Although maybe there's something to that where they don't because they live for protecting the castle. But, like Goliath leaving the castle for the clock tower, I think they'd eventually come around and run away anyways.
Gorebash - [gorebash at s8 dot org]
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 3:49:53 pm EST from 207.206.239.1

I have a hard time seeing the Wyvern Clan being alright with being put to sleep whenever they were not needed and being woken simply as mercenaries essentially.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 3:16:54 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

I always had the impression that the Magus planned to use the counter spell, that Hakon burned, whenever the castled was threatened. Then put the clan back to sleep when the danger had past. Logically it would have saved resources in the castled and calmed the Princesses fears.

The people of the castled may not have like Gargoyles much but they knew that they need the clans protection.
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]
It's silly. It's a silly movie. There just isn't much there. Once you take it all apart, there's not much story, is there?- George Lucas on Spider-Man 3
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 3:13:29 pm EST from 69.54.209.43

It wasn't a stone sleep spell, it was just a sleep spell. If the same spell had been casted on a human, they would've fallen asleep. The reason the gargoyles were able to sleep for a thousand years and still be alive is because for a gargoyle sleep is a rejuvenating form of stasis where they do not age. A human sleeping for a thousand years would've died, I'd imagine.

As for who wrote the spell, I don't think it was the Magus himself. We don't really know who wrote the book. The fact that the Magus was looking up the spell a day or so before using it pretty much means he didn't write it. Though it's possible, unlikely, but possible. I'm not sure the Magus was a powerful enough magic user to actually create spells.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age, between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" -Macbeth, 'City of Stone'
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 1:25:52 pm EST from 24.207.163.239

Did Magus write the stone sleep spell or was it already written?
Anthony Tini - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 1:09:34 pm EST from 159.240.11.254

I believe at the time of "Awakenings," the Magus and Katherine definitely believed what they were saying, and it was a reflection of general attitudes of the people at the time. Katherine's was based on very unwise teasing of her father, and she had not outgrown it by 994. The Magus had his own biases, which he expounded on because of Katherine. Still, he did see them as a threat and learned the spell to turn them to stone as a precaution. Both were unwilling to recognize the evidence before them that gargoyles were more than mere beasts until it was too late. This happens alot with us humans. We get exposed to some sort of misconception or prejudice, and if we aren't careful, we tend to see things through this bias, including what we think fits our expectations and ignoring or rationalizing those that don't gel. This is what happened to all the humans at Castle Wyvern; it took being proverbially hit over the head to realize how wrong they were.
Asatira
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 12:14:45 pm EST from 131.204.97.9

Later in Awakenings, when Magus goes to cast the spell on the gargoyles, notice how he knows exactly what page its on. It makes me wonder if he was pre-planning something for them, in case they turned on them. I do wonder if he was just getting ready for it and looked for that particular spell earlier.
Siren
Don't knock on Death's door. Ring his doorbell and run, he hates that.
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 12:07:39 pm EST from 70.154.233.121

Re: Names >> The repetition of Malcolm/Maol Chalvim is historical, Greg didn't make it up so I wouldn't call it a coincidence nor deliberate. Same with multiple Kenneths.

Re: Magus >> I think that his actions indicate where his true feelings were far more than his words. He may have tailored his thoughts and words to the Princess because she was his feudal ruler and he loved her, but he also essentially killed Hudson, Bronx, and the Trio. True it was because he blamed them for her death, but I think it indicates that his bigotry went deep.

I doubt the either the magus or princess were thinking about the meaning and hypocracy of their words in the dining hall. They were just spouting random insults out of hatred and fear.

I don't think that the hypothesis of the magus loving a gargoyle is remotely plausible. Sorry.
Vaevictis Asmadi
"We're not the last. We're not alone." - Hudson
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 10:42:04 am EST from 63.231.230.85

Also, Greg Weisman wrote that line to establish that Magus did not care for the Gargoyles and made sure his audience knew that. And then in a later scene he is shown reading from the Grimorum for reasons we do not know. Then we see a man in a white cloak speaking with Hakon, leading the audience to believe that Magus was the betrayer.

So was that line spoken solely for the above reason, or was it also meant to imply a connection between Katherine and Magus? A connection that, of course, we wouldn't understand until later...
Anthony Tini - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 9:49:39 am EST from 159.240.11.254

I've thought myself that the Magus's feelings about Princess Katharine were a major factor in his response towards the gargoyles.

His viewing them as "unnatural" when he's himself a wizard might seem self-contradictory, but Greg Weisman once mentioned (in one of the memos that he posted at "Ask Greg" some years ago) that the Magus was more concerned about the gargoyles' superhuman strength and natural weaponry (fangs and claws) than about their "demonic" appearance. They're far more formidable than humans, and that makes them intimidating.

It certainly appears that you can be a wizard in the Gargoyles Universe and still be prejudiced against gargoyles; the Archmage also looked down upon them, calling Demona "stupid beast!" (Of course, a major factor of his hatred for them was their interference in his schemes.)
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 7:59:27 am EST from 4.244.213.104

11! Chances are the Princess was just being hypocritical. I mean just look at the dining hall. They had dogs present but Catherine still yelled at the Captain that she was displeased to see the beasts. When I first saw Awakenings I thought to myself that the Princess and the Magus were talking without thinking.
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]
It's silly. It's a silly movie. There just isn't much there. Once you take it all apart, there's not much story, is there?- George Lucas on Spider-Man 3
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 7:06:00 am EST from 69.54.209.16

Jamesman> Heh.

Lemme know when you do and I'll check it out.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Thirty-Six. Nine.
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 6:46:55 am EST from 75.60.188.110

Greg B: I'm leaning towards he was thinking what Katherine wanted him to. The Magus of 994 really didn't have much of a spine.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"If by candy, you mean 'Ancient Unspeakable Evil,' then yes, I told you not to put it in your mouth." -Amazing Screw-On Head
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 6:43:21 am EST from 71.62.198.251

I managed to finally snag a copy of Gargoyles #6 the other day, only to learn what most of you had learned a couple weeks ago. I'll hopefully track down a reprinted copy at some point.

Anyway, I know I don't post here too much, but I just wanted to look into something. About a year ago, I had been writing summaries of Gargoyles episodes with my own commentary on the Something Awful Forums, in an attempt to raise interest in the show/DVDs. Around that time, a couple of folks had offered to host these writings (I believe someone from s8, and someone from gargoyles-fans). I turned them down at the time, but I'm wondering if the offers still stand.

I was thinking about starting up the episode summaries again, and it'd just be handy to have a resource to direct people to for the first batch, especially one that can handle the hits and help direct folks to learn even more about the universe and how to support it.

If this isn't appropriate to talk about on here, I apologize and won't bring it up again.
Jamesman
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 6:40:04 am EST from 68.198.217.187

gxb - <New topic. So, the Magus. Think anti-gargoyle bigotry was really genuine? I'm not saying he secretly didn't hate the gargoyles, but what fueled it? A real fear like Katharine's (thanks, Dad!), or was he thinking what Katharine would want him to think?> That's a worthy question. Assumedly, he grew up around the gargoyles, more so than Katharine so he would have a slightly better clue about the true nature. If he had full mastery of the spells, he effectively could replace the gargoyles. Of course, my real question is how he got around practicing sorcery in that time period.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 4:06:53 am EST from 75.88.23.50

L.T., Greg B.> Thanks.

Greg B. specifically> Thanks for such a detailed breakdown on names. In half those cases (Alexander, the Canmores), the names are family names in one sense or another though, so it makes sense they'd repeat. Or the names are chosen for story relational reasons that are perhaps more symbolic (presuming if I remember right that Arthur Morwood-Smythe is the one who finds Merlin's scrolls in 'Lighthouse'). The remainders are variations on each other for the most part so not completely identical so I never found Peter and Petros that odd, nor so with Anton and Anthony. It'sthe two IDENTICAL Peter names that really intrigue me. And as to the prior series reference, I totally didn't remember it, but I haven't seen the episodes as often as many of the fans have simply by virtue of coming to the fandom so much later.
Shannon 'Shan' Muir
Shannon 'Shan' Muir
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 3:21:24 am EST from 205.188.117.134

No one called it

10th....
Justin - [jlindley07 at gmail dot com]
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 3:14:05 am EST from 74.135.61.121

Shan, Peter Choy was mentioned in "High Noon". Broadway and Hudson were reading a newspaper.

As for names appearing more than once.

Alexander Fox Xanatos
Alexander Thailog

Peter Maza
Peter Choy
Petros Xanatos (Petros is the Greek version of Peter)

Anthony Dracon
Anton Sevarius

David Xanatos
Dave (owner of Dave's Ball & Stick)

Art
King Arthur Pendragon
Arthur Morwood-Smyth

Prince Malcolm
Maol Chalvim
Malcolm Canmore

Coyote
Coyote ;)
Greg Bishansky
"Don't you ever, EVER compare me to 'Family Guy,' you hear me Kyle? Compare me to 'Family Guy' again and so help me, I will kill you where you stand! Do you have any idea what it's like? Everywhere I go: 'Hey Cartman you must like 'Family Guy,' right?' 'Hey, your sense of humor reminds me of "Family Guy" Cartman!' I am nothing like Family Guy! When I make jokes they are inherent to a story! Deep situational and emotional jokes based on what is relevant and has a point, not just one random interchangable joke after another!" -Cartman
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 3:08:59 am EST from 75.56.245.4

Shannon - Peter Choy was mentioned in the original series, so that's not exactly a new reveal, but it doesn't alter your question as to the name's significance.

There's also Petros Xanatos. Petros is a variation on Peter. I seem to recall reading somewhere that Greg said the choice of naming both Elisa and David's fathers similarly was not coincidental, but I may be wrong.

It seems hard to believe there's NO significance to the choice.
L. T. Williams
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 3:05:20 am EST from 68.183.95.134

Since ASK GREG is closed, I need to ask this here:

Greg W. recently revealed in the Gargoyles history the existence of a character named Peter Choy. My very first thought was that we now have two characters in the Gargoyles Universe with the first name of Peter... Peter Choy and if I'm not mistaken, Elisa's father is Peter Maza. Is this the only instance where names have repeated in the Gargoyle Universe? It's interesting with so many names to choose from that we'd end up with two of the same first name, provided I'm remembering this right.
Shannon 'Shan' Muir
Shannon 'Shan' Muir
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 2:56:50 am EST from 205.188.117.134

Ninth at the time you all read this ;)
Phoenician - [<---My Kinda Useless Blog]
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 2:06:45 am EST from 157.242.215.19

Eighth... :D

Loved the Star Trek reference in Family Guy's 100th episode... LOL
The One Known As Mochi - [rolandsteinert at hotmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>T.T)> Damn homework...
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 1:23:34 am EST from 72.199.226.114

Tony> Um... I doubt your theory. I highly doubt your theory. Also, take a look at the context of when he said that line. He said it when he was agreeing with Princess Katharine.

Sorry, he was never in love with any female gargoyle. Or any male gargoyle either, for that matter.
Greg Bishansky
"Don't you ever, EVER compare me to 'Family Guy,' you hear me Kyle? Compare me to 'Family Guy' again and so help me, I will kill you where you stand! Do you have any idea what it's like? Everywhere I go: 'Hey Cartman you must like 'Family Guy,' right?' 'Hey, your sense of humor reminds me of "Family Guy" Cartman!' I am nothing like Family Guy! When I make jokes they are inherent to a story! Deep situational and emotional jokes based on what is relevant and has a point, not just one random interchangable joke after another!" -Cartman
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 1:16:14 am EST from 75.56.245.4

Sixth at the time I'm typing this.

Re: The Magus' bigotry
He was young and in love, so likely Katharine's views carried some serious weight for him. I also think that the Magus (especially when he was young) was somewhat insecure and had an overwhelming desire to have people respect and/or think well of him. And if public opinion was largely anti-gargoyle, well he might not see any real reason to disagree.
Lannie - [harshsaintcry at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 12:46:37 am EST from 76.78.50.218

While it is easy for me to believe that Magus's feelings on the matters of Gargoyles were influenced not only by his leader, but the woman that he loved, there is a part of me that thinks different.

In the first episode he calls them unnatural and states no good can come from associating with them. Unnatural how? Wouldn't he think that the ability to use magic is unnatural? Only few people seem to be able to do it. Doesn't that put him a smaller group than the Gargoyles? Would the Gargoyles think that people who used magic and sorcery were unnatural as well?

Secondly, the no good can come from associating with them comment appears to sound like it may contain a hint of personal experience. I guess everyone at Castle Wyvern was blind to the fact the Gargoyles provided the much needed protection that they so obviously needed.

I know this theory may sound a little out there, but maybe during the years that Magus grew up, he fell in love with a female Gargoyle (the opposite of the Goliath-Elisa relationship). And maybe she broke his heart because it didn't or they couldn't work it out. Sounds crazy, but it could have happened, right? Who knows?

Out of all our main character's back-stories, while the Magus is very interesting and I enjoy talking about him, his back-story is actually near the bottom of that list for me.
tonY tini - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
Tony is celebrating the existence of 100 episodes of Family Guy.
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 12:32:47 am EST from 70.15.84.29

Fourth at the time I typed this.

New topic. So, the Magus. Think anti-gargoyle bigotry was really genuine? I'm not saying he secretly didn't hate the gargoyles, but what fueled it? A real fear like Katharine's (thanks, Dad!), or was he thinking what Katharine would want him to think?

How much of his actions and thoughts were about what Katharine would or wouldn't approve of?
Greg Bishansky
"Don't you ever, EVER compare me to 'Family Guy,' you hear me Kyle? Compare me to 'Family Guy' again and so help me, I will kill you where you stand! Do you have any idea what it's like? Everywhere I go: 'Hey Cartman you must like 'Family Guy,' right?' 'Hey, your sense of humor reminds me of "Family Guy" Cartman!' I am nothing like Family Guy! When I make jokes they are inherent to a story! Deep situational and emotional jokes based on what is relevant and has a point, not just one random interchangable joke after another!" -Cartman
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 12:12:44 am EST from 75.56.245.4

3rd
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 12:05:13 am EST from 75.88.23.50

Correction, second!
Asatira
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 12:01:02 am EST from 68.119.95.120

First!
Asatira
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 12:00:39 am EST from 68.119.95.120

First in the name of the 100th episode of Family Guy!
tonY tini - [tinitinytony hotmail com]
posted @ Mon, Nov 5, 2007 12:00:28 am EST from 70.15.84.29