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Gargoyles

The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending March 10, 2008

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so othere then that how has very been i havent been on in a long time. mosly because i been buzzy with school
alicia
I WILL NEVER GET SICK OF GARGOYLES :-)

i think its cool that people can bring up any show and compar it to gargoyles. well not just gargoyles but any show. anwyas i still think its cool.
alicia
I WILL NEVER GET SICK OF GARGOYLES :-)

Thanks, Bishansky. I'm glad that my memory hadn't let me down.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

Todd> Spidey had several girlfriends before he married Mary Jane. It's something that makes him different from Superman who's mostly only had Lois Lane, and maybe Lana Lang.

Right now, like a typical sixteen year old, Pete is in love with which ever woman is standing right in front of him.

Let's see, who were his girlfriends.

Betty Brant (who is JJJ's secretary).
Liz Allen
Gwen Stacy
Mary Jane
Felicia Hardy aka the Black Cat
Debra Whitman

Well, those were the important ones. But there were other, random women Pete dated.

But to answer your question, and I hate doing this because I feel like I'm spoiling, but it's such a well known part of Spider-Man lore anyway...

... Yes, Gwen Stacy died tragically, when the Green Goblin (who knows Spidey's identity) kidnapped her, and threw her off the Brooklyn Bridge. Spidey tried to save her with his webbing, and in the process snapped her neck.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Is that not the perfect visual image of life and death? A fish flapping on the carpet, and a fish not flapping on the carpet." - Bill AKA Snake Charmer

Jugan> I get where your coming from with the Sin-Eater, it be hard to pull off anything exactly like his comic book incarnation. That said I really think it comes down to a matter of execution. There are ways to get across the idea that Stan Carter is a nutjob other then having him disembowel peaple on screen. Look at the Joker for instence, one of comicbookdoms formost psychopaths. He's done things way worst then the Sin-Eater yet he been faithfully adapted to animation. The key is to focus on the charchter's other facets. For example they could instead focus Carters pathological hatred of crinimals and his paraniod delusions towards those he feels are "soft" on them. Another interesting point is that this incarnation seems to be pro-spidey, so there's another wrinkle to be explored.

Contrast this with Carnage, another ultra violent spidey-rogue. The main diffrence is that Carnage has absouluty zero charachter or point beyond randomly evisierating folk. Worst case senario: they could always do the Sin-Eater story as a DTV, where S&P hold little sway. Thats how "The Batman" managed to get away with a vampire Joker bathing in blood.

Algernon
"You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with 'til you understand who's in ruttin' command here" -Jayne Cobb

JURGAN - Sounds almost as if Demona or Castaway would be perfect for the anti-Spider-Man, if they didn't live in a different universe from the Marvel one.

To those who know more about Spider-Man than I do (and particularly in the comics): I'm not that familiar with Gwen Stacey, but I remember reading that in the comics, Spidey had a girl-friend or love interest prior to MJ who died during a battle with the Green Goblin at a bridge. Is Gwen that one? (I thought it was her, but I'm not certain.)

Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

Yeah, I sort of misspoke when I said I couldn't imagine Wilson playing a mass murderer. That wasn't really what I meant. I was more saying that I had trouble seeing the Sin-Eater showing up in the show at all. Using the name Stan Carter, it's hard to see him being anyone else, but would they really put an ultra-violent serial killer in a Saturday morning cartoon? There are ways to have a brutal killer without being too graphic about it (Demona, for example), but the graphic nature of Sin-Eater's crimes is really what made him stand out. Peter David wrote him with the intention of being so brutal that he cut through Spider-Man's ironic quipping and shocked him to the core. I don't see how they can do that on a cartoon aimed primarily at children without seriously watering him down.

"Gwen never did much for me in the comics, but I think this is my favorite version. I like her, and it's sad knowing what her ultimate fate is."

Are you sure? I hope that Greg isn't tied to the same fates as the comicbook characters. There have already been a number of changes, after all. I don't want to simply reread the comics on screen. I hope the world of The Spectacular Spider-Man isn't forced to follow all the same patterns.

I also like that Mary Jane isn't around, at least not yet. Of late, the idea has arisen that MJ was his soulmate all along, so it's nice that he has a more realistic teenage view of love, as well as one more in keeping with the comics.

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

HoE> I'd say Norman's similarity in this case is more due to the fact that Greg wrote the episode. My question was aimed more at the previous incarnation of Spider-Villains prior to the cartoon.

Also, to continue with my previous topic, aside from the narrowminded opinion that a She-Venom would be ineffective was also a misinformed opinion, considering that as Madgoblin stated, the competition had and still does published monthly issues of Wonder Woman.

Antiyonder

Just watched both the episodes on Youtube, and was very impressed.

*WARNING: POSSIBLE SPOILERS*

I have to say that I like a lot of the incarnations of these characters. I haven't picked up a Spider-Man comic in a long time (well, before last May, when I read Stracynski's "Mr. Parker Goes To Washington," which I liked, it hadn't been for a while), and I'm not as familiar with some of the past cartoons as others I know. But I really liked a lot of the characters.

Norman Osborn does have one thing in common with Xanatos, though. Both seem to be unfazed with threats of death. The Vulture has several hundred feet in the air, and Osborn's actually insulting him! I also liked how Greg seems to be making Eddie Brock an actual character. I wasn't too thrilled when I first saw his name in the cast, but so far, I actually like him. I'm actually finding myself intrigued by what eventually happens to Brock (probably because a lot of the most interesting confrontations come from villains with whom Peter Parker has a personal connection with in his everyday life).

I also really enjoy this incarnation of Spider-Man. He's still a kid with a lot to learn. Like most kids, he thinks he knows more than he does. He dropped the ball when dealing with Electro (loved the rendition of this character, as well). And the fact that his photography thing is still a work in progress: the results of that made me laugh.

I also like how the pacing is a little fast, but we're still able to learn a lot about the characters from very brief exchanges. A short scene at Osborn's apartment gives us a fantastic sense of the relationship between Harry and his father. And the first time we see Connors, he's shooting up. There's very little black-and-white on this show. It's well done. I've never really been a huge fan of the character, but I'm actually excited about this show. I finally have an excuse to get up before ten on Saturdays again.

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"And April is summer-bound, and February's blue. And no one stops to see the colors." -Ian Anderson ("March the Mad Scientist")

Antiyonder> None of them.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Is that not the perfect visual image of life and death? A fish flapping on the carpet, and a fish not flapping on the carpet." - Bill AKA Snake Charmer

Out of curiousity, which Spider-Foe would you equate with Xanatos if any do come close?
Antiyonder

I very much see a scene in this show where Gwen takes off the glasses, "let's her hair down", and Pete's jaw drops because she is so gorgeous.

Gwen never did much for me in the comics, but I think this is my favorite version. I like her, and it's sad knowing what her ultimate fate is.

I've already seen fans who are not well versed in Spidey lore compare Norman Osborn to Xanatos. I laughed a little, because, not going to spoil it for those who don't know, but Osborn is different. Very, very, very different.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Is that not the perfect visual image of life and death? A fish flapping on the carpet, and a fish not flapping on the carpet." - Bill AKA Snake Charmer

Lacey chabert (Gwen Stacy) was also in Gargoyles. I won't say which season or what episode as it doesn't exsist anymore, LOL
Vicky82 - [Vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]

Jurgan> I'm not sure why you think Tom Wilson isn't up for the job of portraying the Sin Eater. Mr. Wilson is a pretty talented actor with a chameleon like talent for shifting into a role. I mean compare Matt Bluestone with Biff Tannen you'd hardly think it was the same guy. You want crazy, check out Bluestone's outburst in Revelations: "only your gargoyles can save us now!". That scene gives me chills every time. I'm personally looking forward to seeing Tom get in touch with his inner psychopath.

As for changing characters as plot dictates, it's often the only way to make the story work. Take Gwen for example, Greg and co could have modeled her after Ditko era Gwen, made her a sexy adventureus party girl. Whats wrong with that you ask? Well, nothing except she'd now be a blond clone of Mary Jane. Of course there's always Romotia era Gwen where she would break down in tears and run to daddy every time Peter went to the bathroom. There's probably a good reason they through her off a bridge.

As for the nineties series. I grew up with that as well and despite it's flaws it probably the best Spider-Man cartoon made up until now. But I still think it strayed a little too far from the core of the Spider-Mythos particularly in the later seasons with their bizarre emphasis on vampires and cosmic battles for the fate of the universe. Judge by those later episodes you'd think Morbius and Dormommu were Spidey's arch foes.

Blaise> Comic Electro: guy gets hit by lightning, guy develops electric superpowers, guy dresses up like an idiot an decides to rob a couple of banks. Basically your bog standard 60s supervillain.

Algernon
"You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with 'til you understand who's in ruttin' command here" -Jayne Cobb

****Blaise enters the Room through the doorway...by crawling along the walls.**** You can probably guess what I'm going to talk about.

SPIDER-MAN> Not being very knowledgeable in Spider-history I didn't realize that Clancy Brown's character is the guy-who-will-be Rhino, nor did I recognize the Enforcers, or realize that the "Big Man" was an entirely separate character from the Kingpin (although I did know about that stupid, STUPID "Kingpin-embargo").
Right off, I've got to say I love the voices. Add Dorian Harewood to your list of "'Gargoyles' voice actors in 'Spider-Man,'" Greg B.. Also, it's nice to hear Crispin outside of anime, and I KNEW the Vulture's voice sounded familiar, I just couldn't place it initially.
In terms of animation, it's great; very fluid, with a lot of nice little movement details. The character designs (especially in regards to the eyes--or at least Peter's) took a little getting used to for me, but they work.
What I love best, though, are the characterizations. I was particularly struck by Peter's leaping to the wrong conclusions about Max and making the situation even worse (even giving him his "super-villain" name), thus putting "our hero" in the wrong. Max/Electro himself was an interesting twist on the old character. Was Electro this kind of a tragic figure in the comics? I know the 90's series completely changed who and what he was (and not for the better, in my opinion), so I really like this version. I also appreciate the early introductions of the villains (before they become villains). I actually didn't realize whom the "Otto" Toombs was yelling at was until I was able to read the bloody credits.
Actually, as a sort of extension of characterization, this show had some wonderful dialogue and interactions--especially when it came to the villain's names.
VULTURE: "I'm what you called me: a Vulture!"
NORMAN: "I called you a BUZZARD! Honestly, you can't even get the name right!"
And:
MAX: "I'm not Max, anymore. I'm...that name you called me...
SPIDER-MAN: "'Lightning-butt...?'"
MAX: NO!
Of course I also can't forget the Vulture tearing Norman's car apart and screaming "I WANT MY APOLOGY!"
So, overall, a very fun start to what's shaping up to be a very interesting series. Looking forward to next week!

JURGAN> Well, Tom Wilson's an actor, so I can see him playing a crazed mass-murderer. And the idea that he's the "bad cop" at the start (he needlessly provoked Max) strikes me as a very nice bit of pipe-laying for that possible development.

T-SHIRT> Finally was able to make it to a Hot Topic and buy one (and I could afford it--thank you, tax refund!). I think it looks nice, but I'm afraid to wash-and-wear it and thus eventually lose the design. I may just go and buy a second one to keep pristine (or try to--it's harder to do that with clothes than comics)

And that's it from me. Until next time, farewell. ****Blaise slings a web and swings out a window.****

Blaise
"Build a man a fire, keep him warm for a day. Set a man on fire, keep him warm for the rest of his life."--Terry Pratchett's "Jingo"

A bit early to have a conclusive opinion on the series as a whole (it takes a handful for me to reach that), but I like how it's going. I love how Peter is a high school teenager and is going to be that way for a while. That opens up a whole load of complications in his personal world that collides with the Spider-man world. It's kinda fun hearing him make all these wisecracks as he's fighting his foes, namely Marko. Little silly gimmicks that aren't seen that much now, like the spider signal, add to the humor. And it's good to see how everything starts setting the stage for future concerns, namely the tampered lizard formula after the fight with Electro.

A good thing they're doing is including the internal monologue, let's us really into Peter's head. Also, there's the focus on characters. I'm not too familiar with Electro, but I actually liked how he was done here. No more starfish mask, and there's some sense to his costume. Eddie, I'm surprised to say, I actually like a little. I'm worried and expectant about what and how is going to propel him toward Venom, but it's a much different take than the versions I'm used to. More hardcore fans may like or not, but right now, I do. And I love the animation. Watch that Spider move!

Asatira

Sorry for so many comments, but in my ramble I mention "Harry Obsourn! WTH IS WRONG WITH YOU!?"... I meant to edit that out... but figured that described how shocked I was by the portayal of Eddy.

...now I'm thinking Greg might interpret that as "WTH is wrong with (Greg Weisman)..." which wasn't my intent at all but... yeah... I'm paranoid about offending people. =s

Aldrius

My Thoughts on The Spectacular Spider-Man

Wow, I am truly gobsmacked by these first two episodes. I'm particularly impressed by how many figures of Spidey-lore Greg and co have managed to squeeze here. From big names like Norman Osborn and Gwen Stacy to the insanely obscure like Sally Avril and Stan Carter. Most comic-based shows don't intro this many familiar faces in a whole season, this show does it in the pilot. Pretty much every single character with a speaking role is lifted directly from the comic page. But on to the episodes themselves

Survival of The Fittest

A whole lot going on in this ep, Vulture's vendetta against Osborn, Foswell and the Enforcers cracking down on Spidey plus a whole lot of pipe laying for future story lines. It really is a great running start for the series, lets hope they keep up the momentum.

Interactions
Another episode bursting at the seems, lots of different plot lines interweaving. Seriously I'm amazed these episodes are only 22 minutes long. Electro's never been a fave of mine but I like what they did with him here.

Random Thoughts

*Keith David's Big Man is the standout for me. I especially dig the unseen ominous voice angle, Kingpin, shmingpin I Say.

*It seems their going the Ultimate route with Eddie Brock's character development. Not my favorite incarnation of Brock but it'll be interesting seeing where they go with it.

*Greg seems to be using the Gargoyles method of introducing characters in what seem like one-shot bit pieces, only to expand on them later. I'm particularly interested in the futures of Officers Jean DeWolffe and Stan Carter.

*I'm pretty sure this is the first time Sandman's been animated since the eighties.

I'm really hoping that this show lives up to it's promise of being to Spider-Man what Bruce Timm & Paul Dini were to Batman. It would really raise Greg's esteem in comic/animation circles which can only be a good thing for Gargoyles.

Algernon
"You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with 'til you understand who's in ruttin' command here" -Jayne Cobb

"Tom Wilson: Stan Carter (one of the cops)"

Are you sure it was Stan Carter? Maybe there was another cop named Stan? I doubt it, but the idea of Tom Wilson playing a shotgun-wielding serial killer is hard to imagine.

Actually, that's a good question. Greg has said he's not going to make up any new characters, but are they all going to be the same people as before? Is Stan destined to be the Sin-Eater? Well, we already have a Gwen who's significantly different than the comics, so maybe not. On the other hand, if they're just using names and changing the people as the plot dictates, then they're not really only using preexisting characters, just preexisting names.

"J. Jonah Jameson was his typical self in booting Peter Parker out of the building and then taking credit for his idea."

Who did Jameson's voice? It sounded a LOT like Ed Asner, who played him in the 90's show. Asner perfected that role, so I wouldn't have been surprised if Greg asked him back to reprise it. But Greg B. didn't list him, so I guess I was wrong?

One thing I'm having trouble with, actually, is the voices. I grew up with the 90's Spider-man show, and watched it before reading the comics, so many of the voices I imagine sounding like their 90's counterparts (I know the 90's show was far from perfect, but I think most of its problems weren't the fault of poor creators, but of being hamstrung by a low budget and overzealous S&P).

On the whole, 'twas a very good show so far. The art style is weird (kind of animeish, or like the Mary Jane comicbook), but at least we get a lot of motion. Not to mention a funny Spider-Man (something the movies could take a lesson from). There seemed to be a lot packed into the first episodes. We had:

The Big Man
The Enforcers (and hallejuia, someone knows how to make the Enforcers a serious threat)
The Vulture
Electro
Norman Osborn (future Green Goblin)
Flint Marko (future Sandman)
Curt Connors (future Lizard)
Eddie Brock (future Venom)

Greg's obviously laying a lot of pipe for future episodes.

"Interesting point about Venom, in the comics Eddie Brock had never even met Pete or spidey before becoming Venom. Yet Brock still bore an obsessive hatred of the webslinger for reasons to implausible or convoluted to explain here. By contrast nearly every adaptation of Venom's origins since have made the point of establishing Brock as someone already known to peter either as a childhood friend or rival Bugle employee. Then going on to build up an animosity between Brock and Pete and/or Spider-Man. An example of change improving the original story"

YES. Thank you, I could not agree more. Venom's always been a pretty poor character, largely because of his terribly convoluted origin and gimmicky nature. Other adaptations have improved on him, but I think Ultimate Spider-man is the only one where he was actually interested. He was supposed to be the anti-Spider-Man, but his personality didn't really work for that. Doctor Octopus had more in common with Spidey. If you really want to make an anti-Spider-Man, it should start with a parallel to Uncle Ben's death. The character should lose someone through his/her own carelessness, but, rather than learn about responsibility, (s)he should blame someone else. The best such character I ever saw was a short-term villain named Fusion, back around 2001. His son died by jumping off a roof immitating Spider-Man. Rather than accept his guilt, he blamed Spider-Man and tried to kill him. That's what Venom should have been.

So, good show, everyone. I suppose I should write up a full review for AG.

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

Oh, so it wasn't Talon as the doctor, it was Dorian Harewood. Jeez. That didn't sound anything like he usually does. That's kinda weird. I usually don't make mistakes like that when it comes to recognizing actors. And Kath was Anna? Didn't hear that at all. And I didn't even know Grey Deslisle was in the episode.

And then I was completely wrong about Liz. I'm not even sure who Alanna Ubach is... must be sure to look her up.

But I was right about Tom Wilson! And he had like 1 line, so that makes me feel good at least. :P

Aldrius

I thought Liz Allen might be Maria Canals, Hawkgirl from Justice League. But that might just be because I only know so many hispanic voice actresses...

And that doesn't sound anything like Elizabeth Pena. :P

Just being silly, but I do think it's Canals.

Aldrius

Greg B> Oooh, good catch on the Big Man. I guess we're just so used to Kingpin being used in the big crime boss role that we didn't even think about Big Man. Also, I'm greatly enjoying your current quote. :)

Gorebash> My husband says Ditko has been given a creator credit since the Spider-Man movies, so this isn't a first.

Patrick> I'd be pretty surprised if we got through the whole show and neither of those two showed up.

Now that I think about it, that might not be Cree doing Liz Allen. There's another voice actress who does a similar voice. I'll check if I can.

Weird Coincidence> The first episode of "Spectacular Spider-Man" is called "Survival of the Fittest". The episode of "Transformers Animated" that aired on the same day was called "Survival of the Fittest". It also featured a good deal of Jeff Bennett talking to himself, so Gargoyles fans should try to catch it.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

What, no Frank Welker? No Tress MacNeille? Inconceivable!

110 days left until The Gathering 2008 in Chicago, Illinois!

Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Greg B> I THOUGHT Mrs. Connors sounded familiar.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

Oh, and Kath Soucie was Martha Connors.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Is that not the perfect visual image of life and death? A fish flapping on the carpet, and a fish not flapping on the carpet." - Bill AKA Snake Charmer

Gargoyles Voices in Spidey so far:

Keith David: The Big Man
Jeff Bennett: Montana
Clancy Brown: Alex O'Hirn/Rhino and will later voice Captain George Stacy.
Tom Wilson: Stan Carter (one of the cops)

And that was just today's episode.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Is that not the perfect visual image of life and death? A fish flapping on the carpet, and a fish not flapping on the carpet." - Bill AKA Snake Charmer

I also caught the gargoyles (the one Spidey demolished looked a bit like Broadway to me), Keith David playing the mysterious boss, and the similarity of Electro's accident to "Metamorphosis". I missed all the other voice references, though; it would be neat to find out how many of these were intentional.

A fun couple of episodes, and a good start to the series. I wonder if the assistant whom the Vulture was yelling at (until he found out that Norman Osborne was the one responsible for his being cheated) is the future Dr. Octopus. And when I saw the lizard in Dr. Connors' lab, I could guess (even without the preview of the next episode) what that would lead to.

J. Jonah Jameson was his typical self in booting Peter Parker out of the building and then taking credit for his idea. I remember my speculations that Margot Yale might have a similar role to Jameson as a civilian adversary to the gargoyles - one who doesn't do battle with them, but who does openly dislike them and uses her legitimate authority to oppose them. (A role also played by Senator Kelly in "X-Men", I recall.)

Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

I'll be looking for it on Youtube. For some reason, the sound would keep cutting out on my TV, would stay off for several minutes, and then would come back on for a minute. I stopped trying to watch it after the second Vulture attack, because at that point, I'd missed huge chunks. Too bad my brother wasn't with me. We'd have created our own dialogue.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"And April is summer-bound, and February's blue. And no one stops to see the colors." -Ian Anderson ("March the Mad Scientist")

Demonskrye> That's not the Kingpin. That's the Big Man, Frederick Foswell, from way, way back in the Lee/Ditko days.

Kingpin won't be in this show, he's part of the Daredevil license which Fox has.

I loved the show too. Norman Osborn was perfect.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Is that not the perfect visual image of life and death? A fish flapping on the carpet, and a fish not flapping on the carpet." - Bill AKA Snake Charmer

SPECTACULAR SPIDER SPOILERS

My husband and I watched the show and loved it. We're big Spider-Man fans and it's always great to see the story handled well. I had my DVR record the episodes, so I was able to recheck the "cameos". The shot in the beginning features Hudson and what looks like two Broadways (or maybe Broadway and Hollywood). The gargoyle that gets smashed later looks like a Broadway as well.

I'll be checking out IMDB to figure out how many "Gargoyles" voice actors are on the show, but Keith David is definitely voicing the as yet unseen Kingpin and I'm pretty sure Cree Summer is doing Liz Allen.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Taped Spider-man this morning, and just left a review on AG.

I am impressed so far.

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

I just barely caught the last several minutes of Spidey's second episode. I was definitely impressed with the animation. Poor Spidey might get grounded... LOL

Though I only saw so little, I think Spidey is off to a good start.

The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>T.T)> Tired...

Just watched the new Spider-Man series this morning. Wrote up a review for it, and posted it over on my LJ.

Good job, Greg. Looking forward to seeing more as the series comes along.


-- Stephen

Stephen R. Sobotka - [ssobotkajr at gmail dot com]
"You've got to remember that no one is the villain of their life. No one wakes up in the morning and says... "I'm a bad guy." Nobody."

Just got my t-shirt in the mail. I like it better than I did from the pics online, I guess it'll grow on me...

scary thought...

Anyway, I did my part! Now I just gotta wear it ad nauseum in public.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" - Macbeth, "City of Stone"

I think I saw Hudson and Broadway at least.

I think Rocky Carrol (Talon) was doing the voice of a doctor at the hospital Electro was at. And I think I heard Tom Wilson (Matt Bluestone) doing the voice of one of the cops. And Kath Soucie was everywhere. And I think I heard Keith David as the guy directing the Enforcers.

If WB didn't squish the credits to the right so they could show promos for shows on the left I might have actually been able to read who was what on the show.

So the whole birth of Electro scene was a nice nod to Anton Sevarius and the electric eels. Right down to the lab coats and even the location of the tank in the room. And you had Talon in the episode to boot.

Lots of stuff there for Gargoyles fans. Lots of stuff there for Spider-man fans.

Awesome.

Gorebash

I think it was just Hudson as the first one. The rest didn't really look like anyone to me.

Is it just me or is Jeff doing his Bruno voice.

Aldrius

For those of us without television, which gargoyles were seen?

BTW, speaking of hitting the gym, I've discovered that Gargoyles is excellant for watching while doing cardio.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" - Macbeth, "City of Stone"

*spider-man spoilers*


nice. spider-man swinging past some familiar stone figures in the opening shot.

nice to see steve ditko get a "created by" credit. is that the first show he's gotten a "created by" credit for spider-man?

Gorebash

Hehe. My wife and I spotted the gargs right away. Fun bonus.
Matt H

Hah, if there are no more "large" shirts left, that means garg fans should hit the gym :P

But really I actually was crazy enough to get one shipped off Hot Topics website to Canada. Costed 50something bucks because those bastards only do -express- delivery to Canada instead of the plain old normal mail. At least I got it in 3 days but damn ;)

White
There aren't too many problems a good axe can't solve

Alma> Cable, though it's on late, currently at 3:30 AND 4:30 am. Maybe you can set your VCR? It's also on satelite if that's what you have, of course.

And you're welcome. :) You coming to the Gathering in Chicago this summer?

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

to King Cobra 582
Wow! that's actually very sad to hear but at least you can READ season 3 which is better than nothing. maybe there's a way for me to get those comics here in mexico. anyway, thanks a lot for the info. it was nice of you. i hope there can be a way to bring back the gargoyles on air. i read they're on toon disney, that's cable right? thanks again cobra!

Alma - [azzanea at hotmail dot com]

Chris> "I start teaching at a camp next week."

Watch out for Jason! :P

Seriously, though, good luck to you.

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

X-Men3...Though it was my least favorite of the three, I still find it enjoyable and pretty strong in storytelling. I felt the change of the Phoenix story was BETTER than the original storyline. The idea that Jean has a duel personality, suppressed by Xavier for years, and it finally is unleashed. Its based on true psychology. Of people who are suppressed and repressed for years and they finally snap. In that sense alone, it was a strong story and better than the original space-origin story, IMO. It also gave Logan a little soapbox. He found not only did he love Jean, but he was very much like her. They both had a monster inside of them, waiting to be unleashed. He knew what his was like. And knowing Jean had one as well, he was able to relate with her, like no other X-Men could. Not even Xavier or Scott.
Siren
Don't knock on Death's door. Ring his doorbell and run, he hates that.

I start teaching at a camp next week. MUST get one of those t-shirts to wear there to spread the word to the younger generations (if they let me wear it, the camp is VERY odd...). Maybe I'll even bring my DVD's. Who knows, maybe they'll let us have a 'movie night' or something.
chris
why do we build castles in the sky?

Actually, I was taking heart from the fact that they're actually selling out. But it's good to know the fandom won't be running me out on a rail.

Truth is, I'm surprised they haven't done that already. ( ;

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"And April is summer-bound, and February's blue. And no one stops to see the colors." -Ian Anderson ("March the Mad Scientist")

Yeah, if your excuse for not buying a shirt is because they are sold out, I could live with that, lol.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" - Macbeth, "City of Stone"

I stopped off at Hot Topic today, and they had every other size for the T-Shirt except Large. I asked the girl at the counter if they had any large, and she said they might have run out for this week. She also mentioned that they've been selling them out like crazy. That was encouraging.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"And April is summer-bound, and February's blue. And no one stops to see the colors." -Ian Anderson ("March the Mad Scientist")

Just got another positive response from my inquiry. Yea!!
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?

Well, that sucks. I'd have LOVED for spidey to have a tough female opponent.
Rebel

As I brought up before, Eddie Brock wasn't the first choice for Venom, but a woman who's husband was killed by an automoblie accident (The driver being distracted by Spider-Man). Since she was there to witness it, she went into shock forcing her into premature labor.

Higher ups didn't think the audience could accept Spidey having a tough female opponent, so Venom's ID was changed to Eddie Brock. And of course, changing the story at the last minute can really hurt the enjoyability of it.

That's why Venom's appearances in the other medias work, because they plan out the details as well as keeping the aspects of what did work for Brock.

Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]

Sorry, Off Topic> Does anyone know where you can download to your computer old videos like old hockey games, for example? Not Youtube or Google video, but something else???
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

Antiyonder> "To be honest, the complication of DCs continuity stemmed more from them having cold feet about restarting. If they had started all characters from square one, I imagine continuity would have been more elegant."

That probably true, DC's Teen Titans was insanely popular at the time and TPTB probably didn't want to risk anything that might mess that up. But part of me wonders if COIE's unspoken mission statement was not to try and make the DC Universe more grown-up and serious, more perhaps like Marvel.

It's telling that COIE did away with perceived silliness like Krypto the Superdog, Bat-mite and Kryptonite in all the colors of the rainbow. Of course all this stuff managed to seek its way back into the current DCU over the years anyway.

bluewyvern> If this stuff interests you, the website I recommended earlier in the week is a veritable treasure trove. Looking at many well known comic heroes and comparing their various incarnations.

Algernon
"You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with 'til you understand who's in ruttin' command here" -Jayne Cobb

Ed Reynolds - If you are reading this, my last two emails to your aol.com address came back as undeliverable. Please email me if you have another email address for me to send stuff to.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?

You guys realize what today is, don't you? 11 months since Greg started Today in Gargoyle Universe History. Seriously, there is another significance to today. It has been approximately 4 weeks since issue #8 was sent to Disney for approval - http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=733 .

Snow in March in Arkansas twice in one week? What the heck is going on?

dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?

Comics: I'm not even really talking about adaptations -- I was actually just talking about the comics themselves. There's not even a single continuity within the same medium. I can't think of anything else that does that. The closest analog for comparison I guess would be the big, long-running sci-fi franchises (Star Trek, Star Wars, Doctor Who). Those have been accumulating material for decades, in different media with different authors, yet even where continuity splits (Star Trek novels being considered non-canon, for instance), everything works within the same story with the same elements and rules. You don't have a separate Star Wars 'verse that takes place in Victorian England instead of long ago and far away, or a Star Trek movie where there's only a crew of 20 on a small craft, Data is a magically created cyborg instead of an android, and Picard is married.

That kind of total revisioning of plot and setting is the kind of thing you see only in superhero comics. I think it's something about superheroes representing some kind of universal archetypes rather than fictional characters in the ordinary sense. It's not a coherent series of events and sustained characterization that defines them, it's a set of key life events, super powers, props, and iconic visual cues. The rest is up for grabs.

As for the live action movie treatment, maybe it frightens me a little to consider the possibility of the gargoyles being transformed from sustained, defined characters into that kind of fluid archetype.

bluewyvern
"Attend the petty jealousies and angers that prey upon your heart."

bluewyvern> The thing about comic books is that most major hero's like Spider-Man & Superman have accumulated decades worth of story lines over their existence some of it contradictory or frankly crap. There's no way your going to fit forty odd years of comic book into a movie franchise or TV show. Plus most superheroes aren't really defined by a single story arc like most fictional characters.

Take Shakespeare's Macbeth, he kills Duncan, becomes king, goes nuts and is decapitated by Macduff for his troubles. His story has a clearly defined beginning, middle and end.

Contrast this with Spidey, gets bit by radioactive spider, uncle gets killed, becomes superhero and spends his life having all kinds of wacky adventures. Spidey doesn't really have a predefined story arc like Macbeth. He has a lot of individual stories that may be part of a larger continuity, but no overarching structure to his life story.

For this reason, when adapting a comic superhero to the big or small screen, a good creator will take these characters and try to craft their own story around them. A story which hopefully will capture the essence of these characters.

As for what changes should be deemed acceptable when making a comic book adaptation? Personally, I got no hard and fast rules and I try to take them on a case by case basis. Movie Eddie Brock is a completely different character to comic Brock, but a for one find him much more compelling and a much more appropriate nemesis for spidey. On the other hand theirs the Catwoman movie, an unholy abomination that strayed so far from it's comic roots that it was barely in the same solar system.

Interesting point about Venom, in the comics Eddie Brock had never even met Pete or spidey before becoming Venom. Yet Brock still bore an obsessive hatred of the webslinger for reasons to implausible or convoluted to explain here. By contrast nearly every adaptation of Venom's origins since have made the point of establishing Brock as someone already known to peter either as a childhood friend or rival Bugle employee. Then going on to build up an animosity between Brock and Pete and/or Spider-Man. An example of change improving the original story

P.S. Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venom_%28Eddie_Brock%29 where you can compare the various different incarnations of Venom over the years to get a sense of what I'm talking about.

Algernon
"You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with 'til you understand who's in ruttin' command here" -Jayne Cobb

Superhero Comics to Other Media> I think bluewyvern pretty much stated my opinion on the whole thing. Since many of the popular superhero characters have been around for 40 years or more, they've alredy gone through any number of alterations, revisions, and outright reimaginings. So, with some exceptions, most fans realize that TV or movie takes on superheroes are generally going to be new takes on the characters. As long as the basic essentials are still in place, other aspects can be altered. Uncle Ben's death is essential to Spider-Man's history. His costume is essential. Other details, like exactly how he met Mary Jane and the nature of his web shooters can be changed without causing too much trouble (though I do understand why some people were a little disappointed by the organic web shooters). Batman can have kid sidekicks or not, have a Batmobile or not, and have some flexability in his costume. But if it's Bruce Wayne under the cowl, you can't give him an origin that removes the death of his parents or make him a blue collar wag slave instead of one of Gotham's elite.

As usual, what applies to superhero comics does not apply to all comics, or even all superhero comics. If you're doing an adaptation of a series that hasn't been around as long and thus has had fewer revamps, or a particular storyline, or a graphic novel, you have a lot less wiggle room. The recently released "Justice League: The New Frontier" direct to DVD movie is very similar to the limited comic series of the same name. I imagine we'll be looking at a similar situation when "Watchmen" comes out.

"Gargoyles: The Movie""> Though I understand some of the concerns involved in making a live-action movie aimed partly at people who had never seen the show and having a shorter run time than all five parts of "Awakening", I have some issues with the proposed movie treatment. It may partially be because I don't know how the whole story would play out and it's a moot point anyway since it ain't gonna happen. But still, I'm not sure it would have worked in that form.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

bluewyvern> As I also said, what's the point of watching an adaptation that's 100% faithful to the source material when you could just read the comic?

What I meant was, that as long as it's faithful to the material in spirit and heart, then the change is more than exceptable.

X-Men 3: Despite it's flaws was smart in having The Phoenix as an extension of Jean's power. Because all fictional material aside, the movie is still grounded in reality, thus going intergalactic would have been a mistake.

Superman 2: If the movie was completely similar to the comics, then the drama of Superman's absent would be nonexistent as:

A. You'd still have the Justice League to keep Zod and crew under control.
B. The citizens of Earth could simply gather some Kryponite (which isn't as common in the movieverse).

Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]

Alma> Where to begin?

Gargoyles turned into the god-awful Goliath Chronicles in season 3, and then got cancelled, with no new episodes. 9 years passed with nothing canon, until 2006 when we got issue #1 of the comic, which is supposed to be the REAL season 3 (since Greg had left Gargoyles, Goliath Chronicles is NOT considered canon) and it's currently chugging along slowly.

The show also has all of season 1 and the first half of season 2 on DVD, not to mention the new Gargoyles shirt recently discussed on this site.

Hope that helps.

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

hello everyone! well i'm new at this. this is my first time here and i'm pretty curious about a lot of things. maybe someone can help me out. see, i'm mexican and currently living in mexico but i lived in the states as a kid and was pretty much a huge gargoyle fan. i guess i must have seen the end of season two but i came back to live in mexico in '97 (or'98) and completely lost track of gargoyles. from what i've read there was a third season, the goliath chronicles but i'm not sure what year that was or what happened after the show was canceled. i know greg left the show (and i can tell it wasn't the same). anyway, i wanna know if anyone can tell me what happened to gargoyles after the third season and if there are any new episodes than can be watched. feel free to send me an email. thank you so much guys! living in mexico has definitely left out any possibilities of going to any gathering conventions
Alma - [azzanea at hotmail dot com]

Well, me and my brother went out to a Hot Topic and grabbed two Garg Shirts. It was pretty cool, since the clerk mentioned that she was happy that they started selling them. I mentioned her about the site, the DVDs, as well as the comics, which she all knew about. She was, however, unaware of the Bad Guys spinoff as well as the TPB, so I was ready to recomend those to her as well. All in all, a very good day.

Spiderman: Sweet -- Got to see which channel it's going to be in Phoenix. But hey, I got a free Saturday morning :)

Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka

Sorry for the double, but I just dug up and read the movie ramble.

My head asplode.

bluewyvern
"Attend the petty jealousies and angers that prey upon your heart."

Spen> Thanks. Don't know how I missed that.

Comic adaptations: Hmm. Now, I don't have much truck with superhero comics. But all this stuff you're talking about got me thinking -- particularly your comment, Antiyonder -- "as long as the story details change, but keep character traits similar, then no harm no foul."

With all the multiverses and different periods/settings and adaptations of comic book franchises into different media, pretty much everything does seem subject to change except the character's core attributes and powers. I can't think of anything else like this. In what other genre can you completely rewrite a character's backstory, changing their origin, the chronology of events, the setting, and supporting characters, as long as you keep their features the same? It seems like a remarkable divorce from storyline, which it seems should be the basis of any fiction, but in comics, it's fluid.

As an outsider I may be skewing things, but does this seem like an accurate assessment? Why such an odd development?

bluewyvern
"Attend the petty jealousies and angers that prey upon your heart."

Hey everyone who's your favorite character? I love Elisa she knows how to kick as lol.
DarkAngel

Bluewyvern : Check the live-action movie archives. The synopsis was given in a ramble on July 19, 2000.
Spen
"I agree to disagree agreeably on issues where agreement provides substantive disagreement in the context of agreement." - Scott Leroy

Todd> The talk about "The Spectacular Spider-Man" (and especially Greg's encouraging everyone to watch it, even if you aren't familiar with Spider-Man) reminded me of a question I've occasionally wondered about adaptations of comic books to other media. Is it better (at least, at times) to watch a series based on a comic book if you haven't read the comic book in question? After all, they often change things in the adaptation (say, the super-hero's first encounter with one of his enemies might take place earlier in his career in the cartoon than it did in the comic book); would it be better coming to it fresh, so that you won't think while watching it "Hey, that isn't how they did things in the book!"? (Of course, this question probably also depends on how clear they make things to people who aren't familiar with the original property.)

To those particular fans, I have to ask, what's the point of making the program a carbon copy of the comic when you can read the actual comic? As you said, as long as the story details change, but keep character traits similar, then no harm no foul.

Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]

>DarkAngel

Greg's a busy man. So he only takes questions when he has time to answer them.

But you might want to check back say.. on Saturday.

Gorebash

DarkAngel: How do you know Greg isn't asking questions?
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"And April is summer-bound, and February's blue. And no one stops to see the colors." -Ian Anderson ("March the Mad Scientist")

I'm just wondering please answer for me if anyone knows. Why is Greg not asking any questions right now and if you know when he will answer questions again I would like to know, thanks for the help. :)
DarkAngel

Todd> "We know, after all, that in his plans for the live-action movie adaptation of "Gargoyles" (which didn't get made, of course) the gargoyles who would be awakened in modern times would be just Goliath, Lexington, and Coldstone (though with plans for the rest of the familiar clan to be revived at the end), and that Macbeth would have been living in Castle Wyvern before the massacre and stone sleep."

WHAAA? We know that? Tell me more...

*perplexed*

bluewyvern
"Attend the petty jealousies and angers that prey upon your heart."

The talk about "The Spectacular Spider-Man" (and especially Greg's encouraging everyone to watch it, even if you aren't familiar with Spider-Man) reminded me of a question I've occasionally wondered about adaptations of comic books to other media. Is it better (at least, at times) to watch a series based on a comic book if you haven't read the comic book in question? After all, they often change things in the adaptation (say, the super-hero's first encounter with one of his enemies might take place earlier in his career in the cartoon than it did in the comic book); would it be better coming to it fresh, so that you won't think while watching it "Hey, that isn't how they did things in the book!"? (Of course, this question probably also depends on how clear they make things to people who aren't familiar with the original property.)

I think it's safe to assume that Greg would stay faithful to the core elements of "Spider-Man", but be willing to make minor changes to fit the stories being told in it. We know, after all, that in his plans for the live-action movie adaptation of "Gargoyles" (which didn't get made, of course) the gargoyles who would be awakened in modern times would be just Goliath, Lexington, and Coldstone (though with plans for the rest of the familiar clan to be revived at the end), and that Macbeth would have been living in Castle Wyvern before the massacre and stone sleep.

Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

*makes a mental note to record the season premiere*

Between Ed Reynolds, we've emailed everybody on JEB's old garg fan registry from the letters A through Q. All I have to left to do is sort through the S's in the JEB's old garg fan registry to finish harvesting all the email addresses left in JEB's old garg fan registry.

dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?

*Reads AskGreg*

Oh yeah, duh!

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" - Macbeth, "City of Stone"

Why is the queue opening on March 8th?
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" - Macbeth, "City of Stone"

Oh, FFS!

It's not a bug at all. See: http://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=948

It's interpreting 08 and 09 as OCTAL. Jeeze.

Gorebash

Actually it's mktime(0,0,0,03,08,2008) that's causing the problem and for some reason using 08 instead of 8 for the day is triggering the bug. It seems like 08 is being interpreted as just 0. But other values like 06 and 07 work fine. In fact after testing all the leading-zero values it seems both 08 and 09 are problematic. And it's not just this year. It happens for any month and year combination.

Must be a bug in the mktime function for the particular version of PHP running on the server.

Adding the value of 1 (or 0) to the $in_dst parameter, like you suggested Tony, didn't fix the problem.

Weird.

Gorebash

What happens if you do "mktime(0,0,0,3,8,2008,1)" for day light savings time? Is regular 08 interpreted as 1908?
(The Gargoyles Pulse - updated Mondays)
Anthony Tini

For some reason the date generated by the PHP command "mktime(0,0,0,3,8,2008)" translates to February 29 and not March 8. Ah well.
Gorebash

Queue's closed. That is all. :)
(The Gargoyles Pulse - updated Mondays)
Anthony Tini

The queue isn't open. You slipped one in early. That's my fault.
Gorebash

Queue's open. That is all. :)
(The Gargoyles Pulse - updated Mondays)
Anthony Tini

Algernon> To be honest, the complication of DCs continuity stemmed more from them having cold feet about restarting. If they had started all characters from square one, I imagine continuity would have been more elegant. But since they chose to keep some character's and their history intact you had:

A. The Legion Of Super Heroes who were inspired by Superboy even though Clark didn't don the tights until adulthood.

B. Wonder Girl being a veteran hero even though her mentor Wonder Woman just entered man's world.


Asatira> Then I would recommend the following trades as they contain crossovers between the Earth's or are just on the other Earth's entirely:

- Crisis On Multiple Earths Volume 1-4: Reprints the yearly team ups between the Justice League and the Justice Society. As well as introducing The Crime Syndicate and reintroducing The Seven Soldiers Of Victory.

- Crisis On Multiple Earths The Team Ups Volume 1-2: Reprints the more solo team ups or simply focusing on Earth-2.

- Justice Society Of America Volume 1-2: Focuses on the elderly team from Earth-2 and some of the younger heroes such as Star Spangled Kid, Power Girl (Earth-2's Supergirl) and Huntress (Helena Wayne). Volume 2 features The Death Of Batman. Plus we get a taste of a more developed/mature version of DC's Big Three.

- Huntress Daughter Of The Dark Knight: Simply focuses on the tales of The Huntress as she follows in her parents footsteps.

Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]

Bluewyvern, Thanks! Right now I'm trying to figure out the program and whatnot. And using Gargoyles as a template is helping a little bit. I made a crudely drawn background for the top of the castle tower (where Goliath sleeps and all that)... and it looks... okay. It'll serve it's purpose in the design field, and of course I can use it as a reference if I do find an artist who wants to collaborate.

I actually have a lot of fun ideas for exploring the castle, though. And a lot of neat AGS-based ideas too. If no one minds, I might go into a little bit of the details now. Kinda like the castle is divided into... hmm... 7 rooms or so. The TV Room (where Hudson is), the library, Xanatos' office, the great hall, the rooftop (the previously mentioned Goliath sleeping place), the courtyard, Xanatos' laboratory, maybe the kitchen... anyway, the library can be used to look up certain myths and things, and certain literature (for example, Puck and MacBeth) and then the TV room can be used to talk to Hudson and get hints on puzzles from him.

Aldrius

I'm sorry to hear that shipping costs are such a pain. I've had to reconsider ordering a couple of items that I wanted due to international shipping being way more than the item, and the payment options were limited. If you can get it, get it. If not, don't.

DC multiverses> I can't really say what my thoughts on it. I came in after Crisis of Infinite Earths, so I haven't read many stories that took advantage of it. I can, however, see the appeal. You can have officially have different versions of the characters and have a much larger range of potential stories. I can't say if the old version or the new version is better.

Asatira

Aldrius> Sounds like a cool project. A Gargoyles AGS game would be awesome. Try asking around for garg fanartists who might be willing to help you out on the graphics side, though -- you just might find someone who's interested in partnering and can give the game the visual kick it needs.

As for a narrator, I'd suggest Elisa, as the sort of liaison between the gargoyles and the rest of the world. She's the best one to tell their story.

Good luck. Can't wait to see what you come up with.

bluewyvern
"Attend the petty jealousies and angers that prey upon your heart."

Antiyonder> Woo-hoo, a chance to slip into comic geek mode. Well I started reading comics some time during the mid-nineties. This was not the best time to get into comic, as the industry was essentially going to hell at the time, both creatively and economically. So I ended up gravitating towards the some most of the older silver age material via reprints, trade paperbacks and the like this combined with the vast amounts of info available on the internet helped give me a firm grounding in comic book history.

On the subject of DC's infamous dilemma of "Multiverse Vs Monoverse", I really find my self favouring the old pre-crises multiverse myself. Not only as you and Greg said for the storytelling options available but also because it just made things much cleaner from a continuity stand point.

Whenever you ask the folks at DC why they decided to meld all their continuities into one big unified history, they always say the same thing. "We had to simplify our continuity so as not to confuse the new readers", which always baffled me, since if anything by trying to mash together so many diverse continuities all they did was make everything more confusing. Take Hawkman for example,

Silver age Hawkman was an alien cop who joined the JLA and lived on Earth-1.

Golden age Hawkman was a reincarnated Egyptian prince who joined the JSA and lived on Earth-2

Sounds simple enough right, well along comes "Crisis on Infinite Earths" and suddenly Hawkman's entire history becomes a complete mess. No one seems to know whether he's supposed to be the alien cop or Egyptian priest. In one comic they say he's a founding member of the Justice League In another Flash acts like he never met him. They even went as far as to retcon in a third Hawkman to try and salvage the mess. It got so bad that DC's editors even banned the use or even mention of the character for several years, just to try and stop the madness. It's only in very recent years that Hawkman has started to recover from the aftermath of COIE.

P.S. for those of you wondering what the hell I'm babbling about, you can check out http://alankistler.squarespace.com/. The website offers a fun and informative look at the histories of some of DC and Marvels biggest four-colour stars. A must for anyone with an interest in comic history.

Algernon
"You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with 'til you understand who's in ruttin' command here" -Jayne Cobb

Shirt> I totally agree that If the shirt is unaffordable for you, you shouldn't buy it. Does anyone ship packages to Canada on a regular basis? I was just wondering if it might be less expensive if some of us in the States ordered the shirts and shipped them to our Canadian friends ourselves. I'm also certain it would be cheaper if you could find the shirts in a store near you, meaning you'd only have to pay to ship to Canada.

Whether you think buying the shirt just to support the cause is worthwhile is up to every individual. I'm not wild about the design - mainly the look of the text on the back = but I do personally think it's worth spending the money on "Gargoyles" merchandise to let Disney know it's still a viable property and wearing the shirt to help spread the word. You may not feel the same way and it's totally your call whether it's worth buying a shirt you may not wear to support "Gargoyles".

As for how this came to be, Hot Topic generally carries some merchandise based on Disney properties that appeal to their target demographic. I've seen shirts with images of Tinker Bell, Pirates of the Caribbean artwork, and Nightmare Before Christmas, among others. The Disney Afternoon shows are getting to the age where they have some retro appeal, prompting Hot Topic to take an interest. I'm guessing they're starting with "Gargoyles" because they think it has the best shot at appealing to their customers, even if they aren't familiar with the show itself.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

There are a number of reasons why I (probably) won't be getting the shirt. For starters, it doesn't come in my size. Also, there isn't a Hot Topic store located anywhere near here. More importantly, due to a skin condition I never wear T-shirts. Despite all that, if it was 2003 I still would have gotten the shirt. Unfortunately, my salary has been cut to less than 1/3 of what it was five years ago, so I really can't afford to order it.
Spen
"I agree to disagree agreeably on issues where agreement provides substantive disagreement in the context of agreement." - Scott Leroy

Someone bought me the shirt as a gift and it was really surprising to hear that she got it from Hot Topic. It was even more of a shock to read that, days later, Greg mentioned that he knew nothing about it. I looked into this further and apparently, they've decided to make some shirts for some of the older cartoons on Disney such as Talespin, Ducktales, and - of course - Gargoyles. Needless to say, I'm very pleased with it :D
SaxxonPike - [saxxonpike at gmail dot com]

I want a shirt pretty badly, but the shipping charges are WAY to high. :( SOL for me.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

Look, if it is a financial decision not to buy the shirt I TOTALLY understand that. I nearly didn't get the shirt myself because I have such a tight budget.

I'm just saying that I really hope that no one is going to pass on buying the shirt just because they don't like the design or don't wear shirts or whatever. The fact is this is a piece of merchandise and any piece of Gargoyles merchandise being bought right now is a very good thing.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" - Macbeth, "City of Stone"

Matt> Normally I'd agree with the notion, and buy the shirt just for that. But the shipping charges are a killer, and I could not justify spending the money. M'sorry.
Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream" -- Shirley Jackson

Matt > I agree completely. I still haven't gotten my shirt, but I'll be getting it first chance I get. I might even buy two, one medium and one large (one for regular days, one for when I'm bloated, lol). If you guys can afford it, it'd be great if you'd buy it. I think every shirt sold could really help out Gargoyles a lot.

Having said that, if it's beyond anyone's means right now, don't feel like the rest of us are trying to "guilt" you into it. If you can't afford it right now, that's completely understandable.


Another thing I'm curious about--how did this T-shirt even happen in the first place? This comes completely out of the blue. I wonder if someone on the Hot Topic team that chooses the designs is a Gargoyles fan?

Rebel

I checked out the shirt as well, but for Canadians, they offer limited shipping options and the cheapest is about $25.00. Shipping is more than the shirt. I'd have to think long and hard before I pay that much...
The Barracuda

I think that if you can afford it, you should buy the shirt. Even if you don't like it and don't intend to wear it much, you are buying it to support Gargoyles and show Disney what is up. It's like Greg has said, if you want the next DVD set, buy the shirt, etc.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" - Macbeth, "City of Stone"

What they said. BB, Canada has no Hot Topics. I've always disliked that, ever since I heard about them selling Transformers shirts. They have all *kinds* of good stuff.

I don't have many geeky t-shirts, and I don't know if I want to bother ordering it online, since shirts aren't my favourite kind of merchandise. Still, it looks very nice, and I'm glad for the recognition given to the show.

Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream" -- Shirley Jackson

Here's a fun little hypothetical question for you all... if there was a Gargoyles adventure game starring Goliath... who would narrate it? 'cause I'm actually figuring out this AGS tool, and... I think I can actually do something with it... as terrible as it might look... 'cause I can't draw on the computer for anything.

I was thinking Puck or Titania... probably Puck, but I wanted to get all of your opinions.

Aldrius

Since I've listed the comics I got monthly, I figured I'd share my title swap as well. Peter David's run on She-Hulk while ok, doesn't have the same enjoyment as Dan Slott's run. Thus I'm switching from She-Hulk to Justice Society Of America (which currently has featured an appearance by Kingdom Come's Superman).

I've been meaning to bring up this topic for awhile. Greg has been asked several times his take on whether the DC Comics Universe was better when it had it's Multiverse or more unified Universe. His take on the subject is that the Multiverse was better in storytelling opportunities (I'm refering of course to the Pre-Crisis Multiverse, not the current 52 Multiverse).

Which did you prefer? For the same reason as Greg and others have stated, I go with the Multiverse as it allowed for the company to have two sets of their iconic characters (thus allowing for the older version to have more of a character development and at the same time have the younger versions with the more carefree single issue stories). My favorite development was overall the Earth-2 Bat Family (Such as The Diary Of Bruce Wayne, The Death Of Batman and the many tales of Helena Wayne/The Huntress). Though I wouldn't mind having a copy of the Superman Family issue which sees Earth-2's Superman married to Lois Lane.

Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]

The shirts are available at Hot Topic stores and the online store.

Go to: http://www.hottopic.com/

And search for "Gargoyles".

114 days left until The Gathering 2008 in Chicago, Illinois!

Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
Waldorf: "Just when you think this show is terrible, something wonderful happens." / Statler: "What?" / Waldorf: "It ends!"

Battle Beast> Mostly from Hot Topic. There could be some online, I'm not sure.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

Where are you all getting this gargoyles shirt from???
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

KC - Unfortunately, the only show bringing me to FOX right now is House. And since their currently on hiatus, I haven't been keen on changing it to that channel . . . .
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka

I got the shirt a week ago for $2 after my military discount knocked it down to $17 and I finally got rid of the $15 giftcard I had from returning something someone got me there ages ago. Needless to say I was quite happy with how that turned out. ;p
Asia - [h3llskitten at Hotmail dot com]

Samuel> Thanks for the link. I checked out 'The Trio' and left the artist a message on it.

Off-topic> Anyone see the Sarah Connor Chronicles tonight? I really did not see the end of it coming.

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

Right. So I was perusing deviantART, and there's an artist who is clearly a Gargoyles fan, (possibly someone in here, but I don't think so) and I thought some of you might like to check him/her out. You can click my name for a link to his/her profile.

I like the artist's take on the gargoyle's skin.

Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Noodles, anyone?

Agreed. This Comment Room might be slow, but I'd rather it be that way then start a political discussion. I don't want to know who any of you support, it can only lead to conflict.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" - Macbeth, "City of Stone"

Rebel> This is not a political CR, please don't bring that here.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Is that not the perfect visual image of life and death? A fish flapping on the carpet, and a fish not flapping on the carpet." - Bill AKA Snake Charmer

Well, it looks like it's pretty much certain at this point that Obama's got Vermont and Clinton's got Rhode Island.

Clinton is also in the lead by a TINY amount in Texas, but only 40% of the results are in. She's leading at 57% in Ohio, with 63% of the results in so far.

I am very happy with these numbers. I hope it keeps going this way.

Rebel

The TPB is currently only $13.57 at Amazon.com.
(The Gargoyles Pulse - updated Mondays)
Anthony Tini

I hope to go get my shirt Friday, Saturday, or Sunday.
Rebel

KingCobra and I picked up our Gargoyles shirt at Hot Topic today.
Vid the Kid
Does this font make me look fat?

Yep, really sssloowww!
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]
It's silly. It's a silly movie. There just isn't much there. Once you take it all apart, there's not much story, is there?- George Lucas on Spider-Man 3

slow week thus far huh?
chris
why do we build castles in the sky?

Demonskrye - <Just checked Diamond's website and I'm afraid there is no Gargoyles comic currently scheduled for release either this week or next.> Just remember this Friday, March 7, will make issue #8 being roughly 4 weeks waiting for approval. I'm kinda hoping that bg issue #2 is at Disney's approval office by now.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?

I can't order till tomorrow. I hope they don't pull it off the website till then!
Siren
Don't knock on Death's door. Ring his doorbell and run, he hates that.

Shirt: I already got my shirt. It was pretty cheap, only $20.00, just so everyone knows. Anyhow. I wore it to class, and I managed to talk about the SLG comic a little, so maybe more people will get into the comic. :)
Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Noodles, anyone?

Varangian > The single-day rates are posted on the Gathering web site.

http://www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com/g2008/registration.html

It's going to be $75 at the door for the entire con, $20 per day for Friday or Monday, and $30 per day for Saturday or Sunday.

Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
Waldorf: "Just when you think this show is terrible, something wonderful happens." / Statler: "What?" / Waldorf: "It ends!"

Hello, I am planning to attend the Gathering this year but had some questions first. Living only about an hour and a half away from Chicago, this year is probably the only chance I will get to attend. But I am not sure I can afford the hotel fees for all three days. I really wanted to go just to meet Greg, the cast members who are attending,etc. I was told there are single day passes, say if you just wanted to attend friday or saturday. I emailed the gathering staff last week, but havent got any response. Can anyone help me out on this?
Varangian - [greydragonknight84 at yahoo dot com]
"To Bill Brasky!"

Just checked Diamond's website and I'm afraid there is no Gargoyles comic currently scheduled for release either this week or next. Of course this could change and I think we were looking at later in March for the earliest potential release date for the next comic, but still, too bad.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Patrick> Some of you are really beginning to worry me in a creepy kind of Hannibal Lector way.

I can assure that my question of humans being nutritious was out of curiousity. I have no interest in becoming a cannibal.

Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]

I'm picking up a shirt probably after I get paid this Thursday.

Patrick: Relax, I don't advocate cannibalism. Not on any moral high ground, but rather there's no nourishment in eating your own kind.

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"It's a funny thing. I cut my fingernails all the time, and every time I think to cut them, they need cutting. Now, for instance. And yet, I never, to the best of my knowledge, cut my toenails. They ought to be curled under my feet by now, but it doesn't happen. I never think about them. Perhaps I cut them absentmindedly, when I'm thinking of something else." -Rosencrantz

To answer Vinnie's question, the week ending on February 18, 2008.
Spen
"A friend in need is a pest."

Update: Just sent in my order. Shirt is on its way.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" - Macbeth, "City of Stone"

I don't particularly love the design, but I'll be buying one for the cause.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" - Macbeth, "City of Stone"

Shirt - I bought the shirt on Friday, got home & realized I got the wrong size, went back on Saturday & exchanged it for another one. I really like it. I almost got in a car accident on the way there while trying to kill a spider while driving, but hey, all in the name of Gargoyles, right?
Charisma82
"It's better to have a horrible ending than to have horrors without end."

Shirt> I just ordered one for myself. The designer whose concept was stolen by another "designer" and being sold on a shirt at Hot Topic heard back from Hot Topic, who conceded that the design was too similar to be coincidental, apologized, pulled the shirt from the website, and offered to look at some of her designs for possible future merchandise. So I can buy the shirt with a clear conscience. Yay!

Patrick probably knows far better than I what the chances of the shirt being sold at the Gathering are, and I agree with him that you're better off buying the shirt now if you want it. If you can't afford it, that's fine and no one's going to hold it against you. If you just don't like the shirt, that's your right as well. But if you want the shirt and are thinking you should wait and see if the price drops, I'd buy it now. In addition to the reason Patrick mentioned (and I know I've seen plenty of shirts in Hot Topic stores once and never seen them again), this is another good opportunity to tell Disney that "Gargoyles" can still make them some money. And if you want to do that, the best way is to support the product now at full price. If the shirt only sells when the price is drastically reduced, Disney gets the message that "Gargoyles" only brings in slight profits and only sells when people see they can get it for a relatively low price. And that's no a lot of incentive for Disney to pay more attention to "Gargoyles".

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Some of you are really beginning to worry me in a creepy kind of Hannibal Lector way.

I would say that the chances of Hot Topic sending someone to sell those shirts at the convention is pretty slim. For the convention staff to by them for resale there would have to be a mark-up made in the price to cover costs. If you want one, your best bet is to buy it directly from Hot Topic while they're still in stock. All too often, I see people who are waiting for an item to be cheaper or hoping it'll be available somewhere else who end up with nothing.

116 days left until The Gathering 2008 in Chicago, Illinois!

Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"Everything in this room is eatable, even *I'm* eatable! But that is called 'cannibalism,' my dear children, and is in fact frowned upon in most societies." - Willy Wonka

I Eat People - Clicky link (it's not offiensive)
Anonymous

I went to the mall yesterday, but they didn't have any. So online if there's a small or medium available.
Asatira

Don't really have $$ for a shirt right now.

Maybe if they have some for sale at the Gathering.

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

I won't be buying a shirt.
(The Gargoyles Pulse - updated Mondays)
Anthony Tini

Me and my brother plan on getting two shirts this week, but we're considering either online of one of the local HT shops in the Valley . . . .
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka

Don't have mine yet, since I haven't been able to get to a mall. But I'll get it as soon as possible.
Rebel

So, who all has the new Gargoyles shirt yet? I picked mine up Saturday, and I was curious is all.
Jack-Pumpkinhead - [jtjgundam at hotmail dot com]
'Lord what fools these mortals be."

Yeah. How boring is that?

*sticks an M-80 under a chair

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Hate makes you impotent, love makes you crazy. Somewhere in the middle, you can survive." -Larry Donner ("Throw Momma From the Train")

Yes, nicely done everyone, lol.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" - Macbeth, "City of Stone"

Sorry for the double post, but I just wondering how long it's been since the countdown was performed so flawlessly?
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]
It's silly. It's a silly movie. There just isn't much there. Once you take it all apart, there's not much story, is there?- George Lucas on Spider-Man 3

And away we go on with the show!
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]
It's silly. It's a silly movie. There just isn't much there. Once you take it all apart, there's not much story, is there?- George Lucas on Spider-Man 3

10th
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?

9th in the name of...Why the heck are we talking about consuming humans?! Blech!
Purplegoldfish

Eighth in the name of Special K being the foulest tasting thing to ever curse a breakfast table.

Very slow countdown this week; I didn't think I was going to make it this week.

Spen
"A friend in need is a pest."

Seventh in the name of -- darn, Rebel already did cereal. I was going to do cereal.
bluewyvern
"Attend the petty jealousies and angers that prey upon your heart."

6th~!!
The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>T.T)> Tired...

Fifth!
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!!!" - Macbeth, "City of Stone"

4th in the name of Special K being delicious AND nutritious!
Rebel

Third in the name of an early Spring Break :)
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka

2nd in the name of auditions.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

first.
oneuke