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Gargoyles

The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending October 27, 2008

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ps. my only hope is that in the future, another show like this may come along for my daughter to grow up with and she won't have just the usual carp on tv. Feh.
Jade Griffin - [jade _ griffin at hotmail dot com]
"Foooooooood!!!"

Holy carp (not mispelled)! Wow, I love October... Halloween, my wedding anniversary, my birthday, my daughter's birthday, and now I see I've neglected a bit of history and didn't realize it was also the airing of our beloved show. Well, here's to the best month in the year, and to the best show!

Lonerider> wow... Yeah, yer a young'n. Let's see... In 1994, I was... 19. But I wouldn't discover the show till Fall of 1996. I was in college at the time and had the tv in the rec room to myself for a change and was flipping through channels likely either before or after FX channel's daily airing of The Greatest American Hero (which I hate them for stopping their airing of) and saw the show. I thought the names were ... er... lame, and it put me off but the show itself was so extraordinary, I couldn't get it out of my head. I became so hooked, I found the "movie" and watched that, learned how they got their names, it all made brilliant sense, and I have been an avid fan ever since. Then, back in the day when the net was new in its globalness and just coming out of bbc infancy, I discovered the S8 and miniclan chatrooms. The rest -- fanart, fanfics, garg cons -- have all been some of the greatest social aspects of my life. So thanks to Greg Weisman, and to all of you:)

Er, yeah, the link is to my daughter's 1st pics. Only plug you'll see!:)

Jade Griffin
"Foooooooood!!!"

Wingless: Agreed.
I can't believe it. I just watched the series Timon and Pumba again. Oh, the memories... I loved (and still love) that show...

lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari

I was a mere 28 when Gargs first aired in 1994. Oh to be that young again.

As for TGC, It has only aired in it's original run in Canada. When Family Channel picked up the show for a short 2 years in 1999-2001, they didn't include TGC. Speaking of which. For a commercial free network that only just started running 24/7 recently, they're running shows like "That's So Raven", "Cory In The House", "Hannah Montana", & "Life With Derek" in the middle of the night. Who's up watching these? Why the hell don't they run the old disney animated series for us older folks that are actually up at that hour WATCHING! I'd rather watch informercials than that crap-and that's not saying much.

Wingless

i jsut wanna appolgise for my confusion about batman tas. and you are right Alan Burnnet derserves much credit especially since he came up with Mask Of the Phantasm one of the best batman aniamted flicks out there. so yeah i'm sorry
kyle tonarella - [klyetonarella113 at sbcglobal dot net]
kyle

Matt I understand your point, but more or less my problem was that I saw maybe... 3 episodes of it when it originally aired because it was constantly bumped by other things because of the timeslot they put it in. Maybe that was for the best though.
Ozzie Arcane - [ozziearcane at yahoo dot com]
"Hello Booby! This is a trap!" - Eggplant Wizard

BAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA, I remember when TGC first aired, and I thought it was S3, and I was really excited how good journey was, and then I went "Hey, what... WTF IS THIS?????? Ergh... so... OK, probably... just some... more lush episodes, and the rest will turn out good, right??" IT DIDN'T!! XD OK, there was decent stuff and some rather good stuff, but overall... I was so let down. :D I remember taping the EPs when I wasn't home, and with TGC I really lost interrest. When I heard they dropped the show, I couldn't believe it though, that they did an all new ending credit and all and just dropped it!! When I heard of what really happenned, it all sudenly made sense to me... ;)
Brook

Ozzie> I wouldn't worry much about continuity in TGC. You could easily reorder every episode and it'd be as much of a incoherent mess as before. In fact, I think there are a few episodes that'd be more logical if you re-ordered them.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]

Sadly I didn't realize how bad TGC was when it originally aired since here it got put on Saturday afternoon and almost always got pushed off for baseball or some other sport that no one cares about. Then when they finally did show an episode, it would be as though we had actually gotten episodes the past 3 weeks even though we didn't.
Ozzie Arcane - [ozziearcane at yahoo dot com]
"Hello Booby! This is a trap!" - Eggplant Wizard

I was 7. I don't remember how I picked it up, but I *think* my family rented the VHS movie version and I then picked up the TV show after that. I remember waking up ridiculously early in the morning to catch it (I think before school?) and how I used to get really disappointed when it was a rerun (or when the World Tour seemed to drag on and on and we didn't see much of the Trio, heh). Also remember when it became TGC and I lost interest (in retrospect, probably because it got so crappy, but I don't think I was fully cognizant of that fact at the time). Ah, memories.
Meg

AHAHA!

It's a good thing I don't live in Chicago ;)

lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari

It aired in 94? I would have been about 14 at the time then. All I particularly remember from when I first watched the show was having a massive crush on Demona though.
Ozzie Arcane - [ozziearcane at yahoo dot com]
"Hello Booby! This is a trap!" - Eggplant Wizard

I was 12 when it first aired back in '94.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

LmAo!! OmG That was hilarious XD
VoLpE de FuEgO - [sailorx78 at hotmail dot com]
too tired to type one T_T

The funniest tour of Manhattan ever. And keep in mind, Goliath and his clan protect these people. ;)

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=189151&title=bus-tour-of-the-other-america

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Oh Lord, please help our athletes bring home the gold. Enough gold so we can melt it down and buy back our economy from the Chinese."

It's actually rather fitting that Gargoyles had it's debut within a week of Halloween. I don't know if that was delibrate or not but kudos to whoever working scheadualing on the Disney Afternoon back then.
Algernon
"Jack, I'm merely an elected official! I can't make decisions by myself!" -Mayor of Halloween Town

Naw, going by the results here the actual audience was older than expected and in my case the wrong gender.
At least according to Greg -> http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=7887

Anonymous

Purplegoldfish: I guess I am young. Shoot...
But, compared to the kids of today (all younger than me), I feel old. I'll admit it. I think everyone does though...

I bet if I every go to a Gathering (I'm hoping the next one after '09s is in Chicago or somewhere close, otherwise, I can't go. Darnit...) chances are I'll be the youngest one there, unless the Weisman kids show up. Then I'll be the third youngest...

lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari

Well, crap. That last comment was me. Sorry!
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]

I was 13 too. Somehow, I thought I'd been older. Guess I just wasn't really thinking about it. LOL
Anonymous

I was 12. Seems that the 10-14 age seems to be the median age in here, so I suppose Disney hit their target audience pretty well. They probably didn't expect us to be still watching in our mid-late twenties though...
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]

@ Anonymous: I think I was around 10 when it first aired, but it took me some more time, probably 3, 4 years, until I was able to appreciate the show fully. So, my first episode remains "Grief" I think...
Brook

I was 14 when Gargoyles first aired in Germany.
I saw a very small blurb about in the TV guide and knew that I would have to see this show.
I have almost three complete runs on VHS and wrote the broadcaster a letter complaining about them skipping episodes. They left out the first Avalon arc, so I was suddenly faced with Angela and had not the foggiest where she came from. A few episodes later they skipped the Loch Ness episode, though all episodes got broadcasted later on.

I hope that one day we'll not only see the second half of season 2 on DVD but also a Germany DVD release of Gargoyles.

Anonymous

I was twelve-years-old when Gargoyles went on the air. And I thought it was the greatest thing ever at the time. And yes, I had the Nightmare before Christmas VHS tape with the Gargoyles trailer on it. I was and shall ever be a Tim Burton fan (except for his remake of Planet of the Apes). Anyway, back on topic, I love Gargoyles because it felt mature. It was clever and the characters were not two dimensional. It was the best cartoon I had ever seen. As a book collector and lover of folklore I loved the references and allusions. I could watch cartoons in the afternoon without feeling babyish thanks to the nineties animated Batman, Spiderman and Gargoyles. I remember being legitimately surprised by the revelation that Owen was Puck. That was no obvious 'Clark Kent is Superman!' type of thing that you got used to with kids shows. I was completely blown away by The Gathering and The Gathering part 2. Those are still my favourite episodes.

I even recall going into Toys R Us and being disappointed when I didn't see Demona in the Gargoyles action figures display. A young man who was working there saw me and came up to me and asked 'Are you looking for the female garogyle?' And I said yes. And he said 'We haven't unpacked her yet.' He lead me to a box not far away and he presented the Demona action figure to me. I had Demona. My brother had Goliath. Of course we were careless and their wings and tails broke off. Now I wish I still had her.

Amanda - [JTheGoblinKing at aol dot com]
Existing to Confuse and Amuse!

...er, Weisman ^^; Sorry 'bout the typo
VoLpE de FuEgO - [sailorx78 at hotmail dot com]
too tired to type one T_T

LoL And a mighty ripe age that was, Mr. Wiseman ^_^
VoLpE de FuEgO - [sailorx78 at hotmail dot com]
too tired to type one T_T

Talk about feeling old. I was thirty-one.
Greg Weisman
"Scram, kid!" -- J. Jonah Jameson

Oh wow Lonerider, you are so young! lol that's really cool that new people from younger generations are getting into the show now.

I was 12 when it first aired, but unfortunately can't remember which ep I first saw. I knew about it at the time and may have watched it but I didn't get into it until about a year later, during the world tour eps. I saw the VHS Awakening version before the televised version. I was much more into the "Aladdin" series (rolls eyes).

Here's to another 14 years of great gargoyle stories!

Purplegoldfish

I was 15. 1st ep was the very end of Awakenings, just when Elisa jumped on Demona before she could kill Goliath with the bazooka
Siren

I was 9 when Gargoyles first aired and my first introduction to it was the trailer on the "Nightmare Before Christmas" vhs, then I bought the Gargoyles movie "Awakening" compilation that came with the board game @ Kmart and watched it w/ my little sister everyday XD I remember we used to act it out; her fave was Lexington and mine was Brooklyn. We used to get bedsheets and the Twister mat and use them as wings, jump off of chairs and the bed and make a racket while acting out our favorite scenes (which were the aerial fight w/ the Steel Clan, waking up from the 1000 yr sleep, the scooter scene w/ Lex + Vinnie and when Goliath catches Elisa). *sigh* Good times, good times T-T

You know, now that I think about it, remember @ the Gathering when we were shown that trailer that Greg says was never released? I'm talking about where you see shots of the word 'Gargoyles'; you hear growls, then see shadows passing over the word, then siren lights and an epic theme is playing in the background? Anyway, when I saw that 2 the Gathering, I was a little confused because I actually saw that same exact trailer on the "Nightmare Before Christmas" vhs that was released back in 94/95. So I wasn't sure why it was labelled as unreleased...

On another note, how goes the search for the hotel accomodations for next year's Gathering in Cali? I know it's a tough process, but the anticipation is KILLING me @_@

VoLpE de FuEgO - [sailorx78 at hotmail dot com]
too tired to type one T_T

I was eleven. Not only did I watch it when it first aired, I had been anticipating it eagerly ever since I saw the first ads for it in my Disney Adventures magazine. I remember an issue that had both one of the promotional posters, with a rocky-looking Goliath on a rooftop over a dark, Gotham-esque cityscape, and a Gargoyles mini-comic. I remember asking my mother if the show was going to look like the poster, my mind racing I suppose at the thought of some fantastic, unheard-of new animation technique, and I was briefly slightly disappointed when she said no, it would probably look more like the comic. Oh, well. I knew this show was going to be the best thing ever.

Happy Gargoyles Day, everyone!

bluewyvern
"Attend the petty jealousies and angers that prey upon your heart."

Adam : Not even close. I was twenty-four.
Spen
"Ad-lib excitement."

lonerider26> I stand corrected.

Adam> Maybe, but not likely the oldest. But you just beat me. I was 13.

Asatira

Am I the oldest one. i was 14 and a half when Gargoyles first aired. Three years after the Halloween blizzard of 1991.
Adam - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]

WOW, I feel like a baby right now... Everyone in here is older than I am 0_0
lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari

Wow, 14 years ago. I was 13. I've known and loved this show for half of my entire life. Crazy!
The Gargoyles Pulse
~ Tony Tini

I was 12, But UK didn't get Gargoyles Until the 1st Week of October 1995, which is when the Disney Channel was launched, so I was 13. I still remember seeing the Previews for it even though I didn't watch it until later
VickyUK - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]

Oh, WOW. I was exactly five months old when the show first aired. Yikes...

Happy Gargoyles Day everyone! :)

lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari

Wow... 14 years? It's been so long... Ironically enough, I was 14 at the time it first aired (and now I feel old... LOL). Though my memories of that time are a little vague, I definitely remembered that very infamous line that Xanatos said in Awakening.

Good times... (>^^)>

The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>T.T)> Job hunting is a pain...

Can't beleive I didn't post this earlier -- yeah, I realized it was FOURTEEN Years today that Gargoyles first aired around midnight last night.

I'm just proud that I remember watching Awakening: Part I the first time it aired. I was six years old . . . and the show still holds it own today :)

***Raises glass*** To everyone who brought this wonderful show into creation and to those who continue to keep the fandom alive!

Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka

Gargoyles Day - The very first Episode 24th October 1994.
VickyUK - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]

Spen: Gargoyles day?
lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari

Happy Gargoyles day, everyone!
Spen
"Ad-lib excitement."

Becky> One of the things that makes "Gargoyles" interesting is that characters don't always fit neatly into categories like "ally" or "enemy." The Weird Sisters generally do what they believe is in their own best interest. Sometimes that pits them against our heroes, sometimes it has them working towards the same ends. Because they are loyal to Oberon and the Avalon Clan is now on good terms with him, there's a chance that the Sisters could become true allies to the gargoyles at some point in the future. But everything we've seen them do so far has been to further their own goals.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

i never understood the weird sisters, but there cool anyway. are they allies or enemys to the gargoyles?
Becky - [beckybug1991 at aol dot com]
Becky :)

Ed> Thanks:) She's amid a bout of hiccups at present:)
Jade Griffin
"Foooooooood!!!"

Asatira: It wasn't my teacher, it was my book, and it showed how, over time, how big the human population WILL grow, not what it is now. And yes, I'm aware that it's only appoximetly 6 billion.
Still, if we're at 6 billion now, and Demographers estimate that in 2015 the population will be about 10 billion, just think of what it will be in 2198... Yikes, that's a lot of people 0_0

lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari

Phew. That's a relief...
lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari

Weird Sisters> the Sisters were one of the things that initially thrilled me about the show. I loved how they picked up on so many different, but similar, mythological personae -- the Graces, Furies, and Fates, the Norns, various names and aspects of moon goddesses, witches, the triple aspects of maiden, mother, and crone...such good stuff. I even noticed the different personalities of the three (I thought of them as "kind", "cruel", and "mystical"), but I didn't think to connect them to representing different "versions" of the Sisters. I like that touch.

lonerider> I think "little loss of life" was meant to convey how sudden and complete the invasion was, and how overwhelming the power of the Space Spawn. There was no chance to mount any resistance, no way to fight. Everyone immediately was incapacitated or surrendered, and the Space Spawn were in control. Besides, it doesn't fit what I know of Greg's ethos to use "little loss of life" in a relative sense, as in percentages. Greg's an absolute-value-of-life kinda guy. I'm pretty sure he meant almost nobody died.

bluewyvern
"Attend the petty jealousies and angers that prey upon your heart."

lonerider26> I think Greg meant that for such a decisive strike, there were few people killed in general. If a plan is intended to be very direct, very in and out, a battle can be won with relatively few casualties. Remember, this was something that happened so fast, Puck couldn't act. And what math is your teacher using? We're just over 6 billion right now.
Asatira

Vinnie: "puckalicious"? I like that word. I think I'm gonna use it from now on.

I been wondering something for quite some time now, but I keep forgetting to bring it up. While reading the summery Greg wrote for Gargoyles 2198, I noticed that when he described the Space-Spawn invasion, he said there was 'very little loss of life'. Is he referring to little loss of life as in the Manhattan population, or the entire world population?Because, if he is talking about the world's population, 1 million would be considered 'very little' loss of life, considering how fast the human population grows. I believe I saw something in my biology text book that said that Demographers have proposed that by 2015 (or a later date, my photographic memory isn't working right now...) the population will be somewhere in the 10 billions (or is it trillions, shoot, I forgot...) Imagine what the population would be in 2198. It could be up to 100 billion in the U.S. alone, for all we know, and, also considering how technology has changed by that time, there could be a much longer life span than we have now, maybe up to more than a hundred years.

lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari

Adam: Maybe Hudson was watching British TV.
VickyUK - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]

T-Shirt> Yeah, I bought the t-shirt. I like it. It is, IMHO, a lot better than the Hot Topic one. The collar "tagless" tag has a big Disney logo on it, so I'm sure it is legit.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]

Belated Puck/Alex comment taken from Ask Greg:

Question received on Fri, July 26, 2002 01:50:51 PM
Anonymous writes...
I thought Oberon stated that Puck could use his magic to teach Alex or protect Alex. Since Alex was captured in 2198, couldn't Puck use his magic to save him?

Greg responds...
Saving and protecting are two different things. Also Alex is taken away from Earth, the source of Puck's power.

Response recorded on June 17, 2004

Vinnie writes...
What are the limits on the binding spell that Oberon put on Puck? From a certain perspective Puck would be protecting Alex by using his magic on Xanatos' enemies. A premptive attack by Puck would spare Alex much trauma, so protecting Alex's emotional state in this way would be as important as protecting his phyiscal state in the result of a direct attack on his person.

Greg responds...
One bends the rules just enough so that they won't break. Besides, Puck has his own ethos... he promised Xanatos a lifetime of service as Owen -- without help from Puck. So he personally doesn't want to just go puckalicious for no reason -- or even for a trumped up reason.

Besides, who says Xanatos has enemies? ;)

Response recorded on November 10, 2005

I hope these help.

Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]

Adam: Most likely they were doing something with Macbeth.
lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari

Supermorff> I mean an entire storyline revolving around the grace aspect; though you are likely correct about that brief moment, it doesn't match what I remember Greg saying. The City of Stone and Avalon story arcs had the sisters as pivotal characters, shaping destinies, feeding hatreds, etc. Someday maybe we'll get around to the story arc that features them meddling with grace in mind.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]

They had some nasty jet lag to deal with. Maybe they stayed put and watched the stone for fear of turning to stone before seeing the sun and possibly turning to stone while gliding.
The Gargoyles Pulse
~ Tony Tini

When I was rereading issues 7 and 8 I noticed that Lexington and Hudson arrived in England on November 3rd, but didn't run into the London clan until November 13th. That leaves 10 days in between. I wonder what they were up to? I would think that they would have at least tried to search out members of the clan. Just a thought.
Adam - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]

Kerry> Regarding the Weird Sisters, I sort of think that they were representing Grace during that brief scene in High Noon when Desdemona becomes their avatar. Convincing Othello to wrest control of his body away from Iago doesn't seem vengeful or... uh... fateful.
Supermorff

Todd: Now THAT would be torture. Gah, more nightmares 0_0'
lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari

Siren> We were talking about that shirt a week or two back. Still no word on if it's legit, but 80sTees is a reputable company and I doubt anyone would want to risk the wrath of Disney's lawyers in such a public way.

Landon> I wouldn't necessarily conclude that. I have plenty of shirts with distressed designs from properties that aren't that old at all, including a Teen Titans shirt I got while the show was still in production. Some people just like the distressed look. It really doesn't have much to do with the age of the content of the image.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

I find it humorous that the image on the shirt is 'distressed', like a shirt on a 10-year-old show isn't cool unless it's worn out and retro.
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]

Not sure if this is official, but check out this cool Gargoyles t-shirt :D

http://www.80stees.com/products/Gargoyles-T-shirt.asp

Siren

Weird Sisters> I think I remember Greg saying that they represented Fate, Vengeance, and Grace, depending on which of the three was in charge at the time. We've seen them do the first two, and Greg had plans for a story to illustrate the last, but we haven't seen it yet.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]

Todd> I must have been confused. I thought I recalled Greg saying that they weren't the Fates and that he didn't want to tackle the fates just yet so that he could steer clear of Neil Gaiman's interpretation of them, but that was ages ago so it's highly likely that I'm remembering it wrong.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

According to Greg, the Weird Sisters *are* the Fates - at least, whenever Luna (the one who represents Fate or Destiny) takes the lead (in the same way that they represent the Furies when Selene takes the lead or the Graces when Phoebe takes the lead). He hasn't said anything yet to retract that.

(You might be thinking of his statement that the three women who took King Arthur away to Avalon weren't the Weird Sisters, but Morgan le Fay, Nimue, and the Lady of the Lake.)

Greg's suggested that Oberon might allow some of the Children to leave Avalon on specific errands. And it might make sense to have them confined to Avalon for a while - the series' immediate focus is gargoyles rather than Oberon's Children. I know that there are some "Gargoyles" fans who even regretted the Third Race getting into the series, though I liked its presence.

Todd Jensen

"The episode starts with Goliath, Brooklyn, Lexington, and Broadway gliding through the city. Lexington points at a building, saying that's the one. Broadway comments that there are no new gargoyles and thinks that Elisa's tipster was "jerking her around." Goliath insists that they must investigate and find the gargoyles before the Quarrymen do. Brooklyn makes a sarcastic remark about needing some "fresh blood" around here."

Oh GAWD...

Yeah, with me talking about how TGC is overall "OK"... this IS a downpoint...

Brook

Loki and other tricksters> I'm guessing that the four tricksters we know of aren't the only children of Oberon who could fall under that category, much as the Weird Sisters do not represent all groups of three women in myth and legend. (Greg has mentioned that the three Fates are separate characters.) It could be that Greg is holding off on Loki and Thor so that he can work out a take on them that is different enough that it won't end up looking like a retread of the Marvel comics versions of the characters. Greg may have plans for them and the rest of the Aesir, but because they are already big names in the Marvel universe and the Gargoyles universe has no shortage of other characters to explore, they may end up taking more of a limited role.

Spen> It's entirely possible that Greg has reduced the scope of the Trickster story. I know I can't keep up with everything he reveals. But it still begs the question of how Raven would be able to leave Avalon without either Oberon or someone loyal to him taking notice.

And for that matter, how is "Heroes of Ulster" going to work?

Incidentally, does anyone else think that the idea of Oberon's Children having to stay on Avalon for at least another 200 years is kind of a bummer? I mean, we've been introduced to all of these fascinating characters like Odin and Coyote and Anubis who we would like to see more of and almost immediately, they're called home to Avalon and kept their for a very, very long time (with the possible exception of some characters who may have duties that require them to leave Avalon).

Puck returning to Avalon> I keep getting wrapped up in side topics and forgetting to answer the question more directly. I think Puck's best chance at being allowed to return to Avalon is to get himself back in Oberon's good graces. Oberon is completely capable of changing his mind, but I think Puck would have to do something pretty major for Oberon to reverse his decision in this case. Keep in mind that even though Oberon's eventual goal of taking Alex from his parents was in very bad moral taste, his original aim to retrieve Puck was a lot less so. Oberon had decreed that his children would return to Avalon for the Gathering and, based on his actions in "Future Tense," Puck clearly knew that Oberon would not look kindly on Puck's desire to stay in the mortal world. If Oberon were to simply let Puck remain with the family Xanatos without serious consequences, it would undermine his authority as king. So it may be that exile from his home is the price Puck has to pay for defying Oberon's will and getting to stay in the mortal world. If Puck is going to convince Oberon to change his mind, he's going to have to do something that is more beneficial to Oberon than his defiance was hurtful.

Also, remember that by 2198, Puck's exile will have lasted less than ten Avalon years. So thought Puck has spent over 200 years in the service of the Xanatos family, from the perspective of the rest of his kind, his exile hasn't been very long at all.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

PATRICK - The only way to make that scarier would be to have the doors lock themselves behind you when you enter, a machine straps you into a chair facing the television screen, and another machine seizes both your head and your eyelids so that you can't avert your gaze or close your eyes.

I think that Greg will keep "Ask Greg" closed until the trade paperbacks come out. (It might be just as well - if he opens the queue again, a lot of the questions might be ones about why he had Montana rather than Herman Schulz be the Shocker in the "Spectacular Spider-Man" and requests for spoilers on the upcoming seasons.)

Todd Jensen

Patrick: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! You just gave me nightmares!
lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari

Amanda: Alex isn't immortal per say, sure, he ages slow, but I'm guessing the Illuminati will have something to do with his long life span as well.

Phoenician: Set, not Seth =P And he wasn't a trickster. He was more of a villainous schemer...

lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari

The most terrifying room of all at the Hotel Cabal looks just like a normal hotel room, but the T.V. has no remote and every channel is showing the Egon Pax episode of TGC over and over and over again.
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2009]
"In hell there's a big hotel where the bar just closed and the windows never open / no phone so you can't call home and the TV works but the clicker is broken..." - Billy Joel

Charisma82: Considering that they had only so many episodes to tell the World Tour, and that Greg and the Gargoyles team wanted to visit every continent at least once (Antartica was missed, oh well, Arthur will get there eventually ;P) . . . I'm guessing they just didn't have time or space for Loki.

Plus, when they DID have Odin, who was already refered to in previous episodes and provided a really satisfying scene of him being reunited with his eye.

TANGENT: I remember Greg's ramble for this ep and his inquiry about what fans thought about the Eye of Odin LITERALLY being Odin's eye -- let me just say that was one of the cooler moments in Gargoyles plot development/continuity.

But while I can't speak for Greg (obviously), he does seem to like Tricksters, so I imagine if given the chance and a good idea for a story, he may wind up in a story one day . . .

SIDE THOUGHT: Wasn't Seth (of Egypt) another Trickster Greg was considering including one day?

Empty Queue: I'm not as big as a veteran as most members here, but I do remember the first time Greg emptied the queue after YEARS being behind by more than years. If I remember correctly, that was weeks - if not days - before the release of Gargoyles #3, the first new bit of canon we had in 12 years :) Good times . . . .

Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka

Darn, Tony beat me to spreading the good news!
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

Wow, there are no Unanswered Questions waiting for Greg W's wisdom. I havnt been here that long but I have a feel that doesnt happen very often ^_^ You think they might open the Ask A Question section soon just for lack of questions or do we have to wait til the paperbacks are released in Jan?
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

Greg emptied the Unanswered Questions queue. Hooray! I wonder what happens next!
The Gargoyles Pulse
~ Tony Tini

So far.
Matt - [ewoks11 at hotmail dot com]

Amanda: Yes. The only spin-off that WAS able to be produced was Bad Guys
lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari

So I'm guessing Alex gained immortality through harnessing his magical herritage?
Amanda - [JTheGoblinKing at aol dot com]
Existing to Confuse and Amuse!

So 2198 was a proposed series that was never actually done?
I said it before and I'll say it again... Poor Puck.

Amanda - [JTheGoblinKing at aol dot com]
Existing to Confuse and Amuse!

Brook: If they ever did do that, my guess is the Hotel Cabal is going to be the un-beatable level ;)
lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari

Tony: I've also wondered if the Illuminati ever picked up the body. Maybe they kept it there, to mess with their prisoner's minds a bit more. I'd sure "talk" if I saw that, plus all the different things the Hotel Cabal has to offer...
lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari

Sorry about that, accidently double-clicked.
Spen
"Come along. You belong. Feel the fizz."

Correct me if I'm wrong, (and I probably am) but didn't Greg say that he had decided to downsize the multi-trickster story to just Raven?
Spen
"Come along. You belong. Feel the fizz."

Correct me if I'm wrong, (and I probably am) but didn't Greg say that he had decided to downsize the multi-trickster story to just Raven?
Spen
"Come along. You belong. Feel the fizz."

Somebody should do a computer game that bears enough refference or is not connected in so few ways with the orriginal creators of Gargoyle, that the new creators can't be sued!! lol

I'd love to see that, and the Hotel being a level. :)

But I guess this is never going to happen... :(

Brook

Tricksters Story> When I inicially asked the question about Alex being kidnapped and taken to Avalon and if Puck could go get him or not, I was thinking about the Tricksters story. It makes sense to me that if you want to kidnap the kid and not want Puck on your tail, you would take him to Avalon. That way the Gargoyles could be the heroes and go save Alex, and that way the story could revolve around them helping.

I've also wondered before why Loki (Norse trickster god) was never included with the trickster kidnapping story. Has he never been mentioned for that before?

Charisma82
Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies.

It would be cool if and when Gargoyles makes it to another medium that Greg revisits the Hotel Cabal and in one of the rooms or outside one of the rooms is a slightly decomposed body and we see a close up shot of the tattoo on his hand. That would be pretty awesome.
The Gargoyles Pulse
~ Tony Tini

"'Greg said that Mace Malone starved to death in the Hotel Cabal, but hasn't provided an exact date for it. (It probably doesn't matter.)'

What a horrible way to go..."

Heck yeah! That's so terrible! But, that's what happens when you're no longer of any use to the Illuminati...

I've always wondered what happened to his body... Was he buried? Or cremated? Or something else? I personally hope he was buried near his wife. He seemed to love her a lot...

lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari

Amanda> You can read a summary of Gargoyles 2198 here: http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=149

This is a slightly abridged version of the series proposal. Matt and I got the full version as a prize for the contest mentioned at that link.

Puck is stuck as Owen in 2198 because at that point, Alex is in stasis, and thus cannot be taught and is not in need of any protection. (I don't think Oberon said anything about "danger" when pronouncing Puck's sentence. He only talked about "teaching" or "protecting".) The Space-Spawn attack so quickly that no one has time to respond, not even Owen/Puck.

Phil - [p1anderson at go dot com]

Amanda "Perhaps the Weird Sisters take it upon themselves to stage the kidnapping because they want to mend to rift between Puck and Oberon since despite their manipulatings the Weird Sisters do seem to have some degree of compassion."

They, the Sisters, do sometimes show it, but when most people refer to the kidnapping of Alex, they refer to the plot idea Greg has mentioned before and was the basis for TGC's "Ransom," so it is almost guaranteed to be the tricksters. And even if the Sisters were involved in an unrelated kidnapping of Alex, I don't think they'd do it for compassionate reasons. It'd be for some larger purpose, either under Oberon's orders or in secret.

Gargoyles 2198 is a spin-off series Greg has mentioned. Just go into the archives and look in the category "Gargoyles 2198," http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/archives.php?lid=71 or look it up on the wiki. The core thing to know is it begins in the year 2198, involves an attack by the Space Spawn, and covers two fronts in the war. A lot of discussion has been based on background Greg has revealed about it, such as possible descendants of the Maza family, possible descendants of the Manhattan and Labyrinth clans, etc.

Asatira

I seem to have missed a discussion about Merlin, but I'm going to have my say anyway.

Someone cited Merlin's apparent age as a reason he might not be immortal. Rebel already mentioned the fact that other children of Oberon (Odin, Grandmother, etc) look old but are still theoretically immortal. However, I personally don't think Merlin LOOKS old. Oh, sure he has a big white beard and long white hair... but that could be more to do with the fact that he inherited his dad's hair colour.

GXB> It's funny you mention the idea that Morgana is Oberon and Titania's daughter. I had the same thought some time ago, largely based on the fact that Merlin had once done Oberon a service and Merlin had been the one (in the legends) to teach Morgan how to use her magic. So, yeah, I'm inclined to agree with you.

Supermorff

'Of course, this presumes that the kidnappers would actually travel to Avalon instead of just vanishing. Who knows?'

Perhaps the Weird Sisters take it upon themselves to stage the kidnapping because they want to mend to rift between Puck and Oberon since despite their manipulatings the Weird Sisters do seem to have some degree of compassion.

I've been out of the loop for a while. Where can I read Gargoyles 2198. Is it in the comics? I haven't read them all yet.

Amanda - [JTheGoblinKing at aol dot com]
Existing to Confuse and Amuse!

'Greg said that Mace Malone starved to death in the Hotel Cabal, but hasn't provided an exact date for it. (It probably doesn't matter.)'

What a horrible way to go...

Amanda - [JTheGoblinKing at aol dot com]
Existing to Confuse and Amuse!

Jade: Ultra-belated big-time congratulations!

Landon: Thanks for the recommendation. I'll check it out.

Ed

Jade Griffin> My understanding was that the four main tricksters are Puck, Coyote, Raven, and Anansi ans if I remember right, all four were supposed to be involved in the Alex being kidnapped storyline, which seems kind of odd if three of them will be stuck on Avalon until 2198.

Don't worry about spelling my name right. The correct spelling makes no sense.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Well, there's four tricksters from the third race in total that we know about. I'm not sure if there are more than four, or if we've met all four of them already. They are Puck, Coyote, Raven, and Anunzi (sp?).
Rebel

Demonskrye> and eventually, I'll spell yer name right! lol...
Jade Griffin
"Foooooooood!!!"

Demonscrye> what is meant by "three of the four tricksters"? Is this a thing I missed Greg talking about last Gathering? Kinda reminiscent of the Four Horseman:)
Jade Griffin
"Foooooooood!!!"

Puck returning to Avalon> On top of the solid points Rebel made, who know exactly how Oberon's decree defines "danger"? We've seen that the "teaching" rule is fairly flexible, allowing Puck to potentially perform a plethora of prestidigitation (I know that technically means "sleight of hand" rather than real magic, but I was on a roll) so long as it's in the process of teaching Alex how to do it. But the concept of "danger" may be a little more strictly defined. I'm guessing Owen couldn't turn into Puck to perform a magically quick diaper change and claim that Alex was in "danger" of getting a bad rash. So maybe even though Alex is being held hostage by the space-spawn, the fact that he's in stasis means he isn't experiencing any emotional distress which is part of the reason Puck isn't available to come to the rescue. That said, I do think proximity is a likely issue as well. Puck probably could have done something when the space=spawn first showed up and he may have tried to, but their attack may have been too fast for him to react and - powerful though he may be - I doubt Puck is capable of taking on an entire alien armada single handed anyway.

It's possible that Puck may not be allowed to return to Avalon even if it's in an attempt to protect Alex, but then again, maybe he would be. Greg keeps reiterating how magic depends a lot on the intent of the caster. So I'm guessing that a situation like that would depend on whether Oberon placed a higher priority on keeping Puck out of Avalon or having Puck protect Alex. If Puck was allowed to enter Avalon in the name of rescuing Alex from danger, I imagine that he would be immediately removed from the premises once Alex was safe again.

All this kind of makes me wonder if Avalon and Puck's seemingly permanent banishment from there might play a crucial role in the Alex's Abduction Trickster Extravaganza, the idea being that if Raven can make it to Avalon with Alex, Puck won't be able to follow. (Of course, Raven might then have to deal with Alex's step-granddaddy being none to pleased about what Raven is up to.) Speaking of which, do we have any clue of how this whole scenario is supposed to happen? I always figured it would occur while Alex was still fairly young, but if Oberon's Children are largely still forbidden to leave Avalon in 2198, three of the four tricksters - Raven included - would be unable to participate.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

"would Puck be allowed to go their and retrieve Alex?"

I think it all depends on how the kidnapping attempt plays out. Based on what we know about Owen in 2198, I don't think he would be able to. In 2198, even though Alex is in danger, Owen cannot turn into Puck, since Alex is not actually anywhere around him...it seems that a stipulation of Puck's punishment is that if Alex is in danger, Owen can only turn to Puck when he is actually AROUND Alex. Thus, if Alex were kidnapped and taken to Avalon, I don't think Owen could turn to Puck, since Owen wouldn't actually be anywhere near Alex.

However...as I said, I think it all depends on how it all plays out. During the kidnapping attempt, Owen could almost certainly turn to Puck and attempt to foil the kidnappers. It's possible that (in Puck form) he might follow the kidnappers to Avalon...and then, whether he can actually follow them onto Avalon or not would depend on which edict is stronger...that he is forbidden from Avalon, or that he can turn into Puck when he is protecting Alex. Of course, this presumes that the kidnappers would actually travel to Avalon instead of just vanishing. Who knows?

I think it would depend on a lot of factors.

Rebel

CHARISMA82 - Greg said that Mace Malone starved to death in the Hotel Cabal, but hasn't provided an exact date for it. (It probably doesn't matter.)
Todd Jensen

' I have more of a question about Puck than a comment. Didn't Oberon say that Owen can only turn back into Puck if he is training or protecting Alex? And didn't he also say that Puck was banished from Avalon forever? Well, what if Alex was kidnapped and taken to Avalon? Now, saying that Oberon can't do anything about the kidnapping, or doesn't want to, so Oberon saving the boy is not an option, would Puck be allowed to go their and retrieve Alex? Just wondering.'

Ooooh! That's a really good question! I hadn't thought of that.

Amanda - [JTheGoblinKing at aol dot com]
Existing to Confuse and Amuse!

Wow, so much too write, so little time… I don't know why though.

Demonskrye> Favorite Halloween scenes huh? Well in Eye of the Beholder, I've always liked the dance Goliath and Elisa had, but then that's a favorite to most fans. I love all of Xanatos' plans, and how he organizes them so nicely. I especially love his line to Goliath, "Old habits die hard." I like how Elisa had her first encounter with the werewolf Fox by herself without the gargoyles aid. It made her seem more like she could take care of herself and wasn't a damsel in distress. I liked Broadway's costume a lot, as well as Elisa's. And of course, I love the exchange at the end between Goliath & Xanatos. "Now you know my weakness." "Only you would regard love as a weakness." As for issues #3-#5, I loved Alex, Brooklyn, and Angela's outfits a lot. I like that we got to see Thailog again, 'cause who doesn't love Thailog terrorizing everyone on Halloween? Most scenes I liked had Thailog. I also love the little jokes here and there like Brooklyn seeing Malibu with Delilah. "You gotta be kidding me" and Lex telling his clone "Dude, you're making me look bad."

Elisa's Next Halloween Costume> Greg says that Elisa is a Disney Princess fan, and to my knowledge, so far there are only 6 official ones (Snow White, Cinderella, Aurora, Ariel, Belle, & Jasmine). Elisa's already taken 2 of them, so I guess the other 4 are fair game, though I really wish she'd go for Pocohantas or Esmerelda, or in the future, Kida.

Puck> I have more of a question about Puck than a comment. Didn't Oberon say that Owen can only turn back into Puck if he is training or protecting Alex? And didn't he also say that Puck was banished from Avalon forever? Well, what if Alex was kidnapped and taken to Avalon? Now, saying that Oberon can't do anything about the kidnapping, or doesn't want to, so Oberon saving the boy is not an option, would Puck be allowed to go their and retrieve Alex? Just wondering.

Mace Malone> Last thing, I promise. The question was just answered that Mace Malone was about a 20 in the illuminate when he dies. Has Greg ever specified when Mace dies? It wasn't in the hotel cabal was it? Or does Mace have a ways to go before he kicks the bucket?

Charisma82
Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies.

'As to your curiosity about Puck's back story...well, we don't know yet. And now that Greg has these comics, I doubt he'll be particularly forthcoming in telling us this story...even though he'll probably never get to it in the comics.'

Is it wrong to want an issue completely dedicated to the little mischief maker? ;-)

Amanda - [JTheGoblinKing at aol dot com]
Existing to Confuse and Amuse!

'Oberon didn't create any of the other Children. Before Oberon became their lord, they were the Children of Mab under the rule of Oberon's mother, Queen Mab.'

You're absolutely right. I forgot all about her. I could also easily point out that Mab and Oberon by all proper definitions are faery. But that's quibbling. You are right though about this.

I wonder what she looked like. Mab is Oberon's mother but he had to take her down she she got too power mad.

Amanda - [JTheGoblinKing at aol dot com]
Existing to Confuse and Amuse!

Oberon didn't create any of the other Children. Before Oberon became their lord, they were the Children of Mab under the rule of Oberon's mother, Queen Mab.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Oh Lord, please help our athletes bring home the gold. Enough gold so we can melt it down and buy back our economy from the Chinese."

"Oberon, his Queen and Puck are of one particular ilk and Oberon created the rest in various different degrees."

I don't think this is true...I don't think Oberon created the other members of the third race. I do agree with you that those three do seem to be of a particular "ilk" whereas others seem more specialized...but, for all we know, that specialization could have been a choice on the part of those characters. Or, they may have just been born that way, and now they are playing the hands they were dealt, so to speak. We don't really know yet, but I don't think Oberon created them.

As to your curiosity about Puck's back story...well, we don't know yet. And now that Greg has these comics, I doubt he'll be particularly forthcoming in telling us this story...even though he'll probably never get to it in the comics.

Rebel
GOLIATH: I SHOULD SAY SOMETHING SHAKESPEAREAN NOW.

Rebel, you make a good point in regard to Merlin.
Amanda - [JTheGoblinKing at aol dot com]
Existing to Confuse and Amuse!

AGh, so many typos. Odin and wale.
Amanda - [JTheGoblinKing at aol dot com]
Existing to Confuse and Amuse!

I don't pretend to know what Greg was thinking. What I've heard about why they prefer not to call them faeries I heard second hand. I know what was created here is a blend of many magical beings but it seems to me the notion is Oberon, his Queen and Puck are of one particular ilk and Oberon created the rest in various different degrees. As you notice the powers are different for each of them. Coyote doesn't have the Banshee's ghostly form or whale for that matter. And Oden's powers are rather elemental whereas Anubis specializes with life and death.

The third race seems to be a mesh of many breeds but the shape shifters (Oberon, Titania and Puck), when analyzed have all the characteristics of faery. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

We're just quibbling about the terminology. We agree about the powers they possess. It's not a big deal what you call them.

What I want to know is how Puck came to be Oberon's servant. The character's back story has to have some sort of origin point.

Amanda - [JTheGoblinKing at aol dot com]
Existing to Confuse and Amuse!

AMANDA> <<Ah, but despite it being a blend of other creatures they are faeries, it's just Greg doesn't want them mixed up with the popular, feminine pixie view of faeries. Remember in The Mirror they list off the different names for them. Faeries, dark elves, shapeshifters are terms used as synonyms for Third Race by Hudson and Lex. >>

On "Gargoyles," characters make statements all the time without knowing what they're talking about. They knew those terms, but they didn't know the rest.

They are not fairies and please don't pretend to know what Greg Weisman was thinking there. They have characteristics with fairies, but they also have characteristics with gods and other entities. Hell, a trapped Anubis was able to stop people from dying... not in keeping with fairy lore.

Greg created his own species with inspiration from various sources. Oberon got priority because Shakespeare got priority.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Oh Lord, please help our athletes bring home the gold. Enough gold so we can melt it down and buy back our economy from the Chinese."

Also, looking old doesn't necessarily mean that one isn't immortal. Odin looks quite old, but he's immortal.
Rebel
GOLIATH: I SHOULD SAY SOMETHING SHAKESPEAREAN NOW.

Are we sure that Merlin ISN'T immortal? I mean, I think he is. According to some canon-in-training information, Merlin is still alive. It's possible that he's not immortal...maybe he's just been alive a LONG DAMN TIME...but him being immortal seems like it could be likely, doesn't it?
Rebel
GOLIATH: I SHOULD SAY SOMETHING SHAKESPEAREAN NOW.

'Amanda> And where in "Gargoyles" is that a rule? Keep in mind, they are not fairies here. They are something else, and it includes gods and deities. Greg took the myths and created something new.'

Ah, but despite it being a blend of other creatures they are faeries, it's just Greg doesn't want them mixed up with the popular, feminine pixie view of faeries. Remember in The Mirror they list off the different names for them. Faeries, dark elves, shapeshifters are terms used as synonyms for Third Race by Hudson and Lex.

Also vulnerability to iron is strictly a faery vulnerability in folklore. These are the beings of Shakespeare's story. There's no doubt as to what they are. It's just 'faeries' is a frowned upon term, that's it.

And Oberon being the strongest, his literal children should be immortal (considering other half-mortal children from these beings listed turn out to be immortal). So there's the flaw in Merlin being one of his children unless Merlin just made it SEEM like he was getting older.

Amanda - [JTheGoblinKing at aol dot com]
Existing to Confuse and Amuse!

Amanda> And where in "Gargoyles" is that a rule? Keep in mind, they are not fairies here. They are something else, and it includes gods and deities. Greg took the myths and created something new.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Oh Lord, please help our athletes bring home the gold. Enough gold so we can melt it down and buy back our economy from the Chinese."

'There is nothing in Shakespeare that says Puck is Oberon's son, and I think it's unnecessary anyway. I like their dynamic just fine as is.'

In faery lore (pre-dating Shakespeare) there's a ballad that says that Puck is the half-human son of Oberon and a mortal woman and Puck gained his faery powers at age six.

Guessing from the changeling in a midsummer Night's dream, I take that to mean Oberon has slept with mortals. Perhaps at the time Oberon was a great deal more sympathetic to mortals and after being ridiculed for his views by his own subjects that's when he decided to force them to observe humanity for a thousand years.

We've got the lore about iron from classic faery myth. I'm not sure I really approve of Merlin being Oberon's son because even half-faery children are supposed to be immortal. The faery blood over rides the human. Even part faery is really whole faery once the magick is discovered.

Amanda - [JTheGoblinKing at aol dot com]
Existing to Confuse and Amuse!

I think Oberon will have more than enough issues with his biological children that we don't need Puck to be one of them.

We know that Merlin is his son. We know that the changeling boy in "A Midsummer Night's Dream" is another. And we know that he and Titania have at least three children of their own. I half suspect that one of them is Morgana la Fay.

There is nothing in Shakespeare that says Puck is Oberon's son, and I think it's unnecessary anyway. I like their dynamic just fine as is.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The Twelfth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Oh Lord, please help our athletes bring home the gold. Enough gold so we can melt it down and buy back our economy from the Chinese."

'Or hey, maybe he could approach it from another direction? Maybe the fact that Oberon and Puck look so much alike, and maybe the way they behave towards one another, is what made mortals mistakenly believe they were father-and-son in the first place, thus the lore itself is in error?'

That is logical. But I still wonder about Puck's origin lore within the Gargoyles canon.

Amanda - [JTheGoblinKing at aol dot com]
Existing to Confuse and Amuse!

Amanda > Perhaps you're right about Greg not wanting to make Oberon seem like more of a jerk than he already is. But, I think that if Greg wanted to, there's a lot of ways he could get around this.

For one, if Puck was Oberon's son, then Oberon would probably have felt extremely betrayed by his actions...I mean, siding with a bunch of mortals he's known for less than a century, over his FATHER? People sometimes do crazy, crazy things when they feel betrayed by people they care about. I think Demona's behavior towards Thailog shows this pretty well. For all we know, Oberon could have been really hurt (emotionally) by Puck's actions, but he was just playing it cool in The Gathering.

Another explanation could be that maybe Oberon has a TON of half-human, half-third race children, and that he doesn't feel much more affection for them than any of the other members of the third race. Kinda like how a king would feel towards the hundreds of children that his concubines have produced. Puck could just be one of many bastards.

There's plenty of other logical explanations that could be generated. PLENTY. It's ultimately Greg's story, and he can do whatever he wants with the characters, for any reason. But, I hope that the idea that it would make Oberon seem like more of a jerk isn't the reason (or at least, isn't the ONLY reason) why he doesn't want Puck to be Oberon's son, because he could easily get around that.


Or hey, maybe he could approach it from another direction? Maybe the fact that Oberon and Puck look so much alike, and maybe the way they behave towards one another, is what made mortals mistakenly believe they were father-and-son in the first place, thus the lore itself is in error? I dunno.

Rebel
GOLIATH: I SHOULD SAY SOMETHING SHAKESPEAREAN NOW.

Rebel, I think you may have hit the nail on the head as to why Greg doesn't seem to like the idea of Puck being Oberon's son, because he can't explain away his treatment of him without making Oberon more of a jerk that he already seems. Puck DOES look like a cross between Oberon and a mortal though. I kind of wish they showed Oberon's softer side. He did have a sympathetic view of the lovers in A midsummer Night's dream and wanted to bring them their happyily ever afters. If Oberon was walking among us mortals too during the banishment (as he hinted at in The Gathering) I wonder what his form looked like, who he might have been. Was it someone very un-Oberon-ly? (Look, I made up a new word! :-P)
Amanda - [JTheGoblinKing at aol dot com]
Existing to Confuse and Amuse!

'Oberon looked like a weird Captain Planet ^_^ her comments amused me.'

Haha! Oberon's costume is awful. I used to joke about it with my friend Sarah. We'd say that Oberon is colour blind.

What I find really odd though is that Terrence Mann (voice actor for Oberon) looks like that today. Not the Oberon look with the blue skin and hideous costume but the Oberon-passing-for-Mortal look. I know a lot of the characters were designed to look like their voice actor counter parts but at the time the character did not look like Terrence Mann. In fact I think Terrence Mann still had dark hair when doing Gargoyles because he was still Beast for Disney's Beauty and the Beast on Broadway. It wasn't until around 2001 that he bleached out his hair and just kept it white (which it probably would be by nature by now anyway). And now he eerily looks like Human Oberon.

Amanda - [JTheGoblinKing at aol dot com]
Existing to Confuse and Amuse!

Haha, A Midsummer Night Dream with Gargoyle costumes. Oh wow, that would be cool.

A friend of mine has to draw costumes of Oberon and Titania for her costume class. She has just recently been getting into Gargoyles but she hasnt seen second season yet. I sent her pics of Oberon and Titania from Gargoyles just for fun. She liked Titania's dress but she thought Oberon looked like a weird Captain Planet ^_^ her comments amused me.

But it would be really fun to see Shakespeare plays done with their Gargoyles counterparts.

Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

"This is the last I'll say of The Dresden Files here because I honestly don't think the Gargoyles fans want to hear this debate."

Thank you.


As for Puck's origins, I kinda wish that he was Oberon's son from a mortal woman. That is an important aspect of the Puck lore, and I don't see why the Gargoyles Universe Puck is going to depart from this...I actually think that Puck being Oberon's son makes Oberon's punishment of him more interesting...I mean, who could do that to his own SON?

If Puck is indeed Oberon's son from a mortal woman, then he would have had to come into existence sometime BEFORE Oberon banished all his children from Avalon for 1000 years. We don't really know very much about what the third race were up to before Oberon banished everyone, so we don't even know if this is likely. This would mean that, sometime pre-banishment, Oberon would have had to go out into the mortal world and impregnate a woman. I don't know how likely this is since I don't know whether this is the kind of thing Oberon would actually do.

Rebel
GOLIATH: I SHOULD SAY SOMETHING SHAKESPEAREAN NOW.

Whoopse, typo. Demona not dimona.
Amanda - [JTheGoblinKing at aol dot com]
Existing to Confuse and Amuse!

I would LOVE to see a production of A midsummer Night's dream where someone made their Puck costume look like Puck of Gargoyles? Have you been on IMVU? It's a 3D chat service where you role play and or just chat with a 3D screen of moving characters and rooms that you can pan around in. In the catalog someone has the full Puck costume from Garogyles, Xanatos and Dimona. The Puck one is really nice.
Amanda - [JTheGoblinKing at aol dot com]
Existing to Confuse and Amuse!

Oh, well. No one can say I didn't try. Litwolf, I tried saying this but you didn't read it. I tried saying that the first two epsidoes in regard to The Dresden Files are not a real chance. The best stuff on that show comes later. But if you'd rather not bother, to each their own.
Amanda - [JTheGoblinKing at aol dot com]
Existing to Confuse and Amuse!

This is the last I'll mention The Dresden Files, something I forgot to mention in the last post. All other conversations about The Dresden Files, though, should be moved here...

http://thebluewhalepub.com/viewforum.php?f=19

because we're kind of being rude to the Gargoyles fans now.

What really fascinated me about The Dresden Files show was how well researched it was in regard to folklore and magical beliefs. It went into detail Jim Butcher barely scraped in the books. Every symbol, every sigil, even that stuff carved into Bob's skull, it was all real in it's meaning and intent. I took a course in parapsychology and I was in awwe at how accurate their depictions of magical beliefs were in that show. Not charmed, not Buffy, Not Harry Potter, not Merlin... No show or film had ever been so thorough in regard to it's research into occult beliefs. On Bob's skull was the third pentacle of saturn, a symbol for binding and controling spirits. (spokes of this pentacle can be seen on his manacle bracelets). Harry's shield bracelet has a seal of solem meant for combating bad habbits and addictive tendencies (hints at Harry's fear of falling into addiction to black magick). If you pause the DVD in Harry's office there are lots of delightful tidbits for any occultist. Such careful subtle detail that amazed and fascinated me. I've yet to see such careful detail and research into magical beliefs on any other TV show. That's what truly impressed me about The Dresden Files. Every little symbol and even potion ingredients were well researched in it's meaning and purpose in magical lore and tradition. It was very respectful of the beliefs in such things.

Amanda - [JTheGoblinKing at aol dot com]
Existing to Confuse and Amuse!

Amanda > I appriciate the thought and effort you put into your Dresden post but you forget one very important fact: I dont care. I honestly dont care about the TV show. I gave it a shot (and yes I did give it a shot; if a show cant hook me in the first two hours, its not worth my time) and I didnt enjoy it. Bob being changed was a part of it, yes, but a very small part. It was more that I didnt care about the stories or the characters. So thanks for your effort but Jim Butcher himself would have to come to my house and beg me to watch the show before I give it a second chance. I dont have anything against the show; Im simply indifferent to it. Thats all.

Elisa > I can totally see her as being Pocahontas and Esmerelda (and Mulan, when its released).

Puck > Too bad I cant get pointy ears and a silver wig for Acting II. Im doing Puck's monologue at the end of A Midsummer Night's Dream. My prof really liked how I did it! He thought my green Ren Fest cloak was a very nice touch ^_^

Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

Back on the Gargoyles topic, I would really like to ask Greg about Puck's backstory. How he originally ended up Oberon's servant since he's not using the half-human son of Oberon lore. I absolutely adore Puck.
Amanda - [JTheGoblinKing at aol dot com]
Existing to Confuse and Amuse!

This is the last I'll say of The Dresden Files here because I honestly don't think the Gargoyles fans want to hear this debate. This is not the forum for it. we can move this to a Dresden Files forum if you like. This is my last reply on the topic.

-----------------

'I know that Jim Butcher supports the TV series. Im glad that he was able to enjoy the series that my mother and myself,

---------

'loyal fans of the books, couldnt stomach.'

There, you see. Claiming being loyal fans of the books require you to despise the show. You can't even grasp how wrong that is. How sheepish it seems. Everyone knew there HAD to be changes. For starters the books, at the time, were only up to number 8. That's not enough to keep a TV show running even for one season. Episode 8 is Storm Front, by the way, and it is very true to the book but I highly recommend you find the two hour cut instead of the forty minute version on the DVD or www.hulu.com (where all the episodes are for free for those in the US).

----------------

Im glad he thought the changes the film people made worked for the story. Personally, my mother and I cried when we saw that Bob had been made into a ghostly human.'

I suggest you watch the original two hour pilot. They used test footage of a skull. The finished pilot is of a skull with glowing light inside of it. It just simply doesn't work on TV. Seriously. It's a talking skull. There's no charm to that.

----------

'The charm of him is that he is an erotic-loving and all-knowing skull. They changed him into a stuffy older man.'

You obviously didn't watch more than the first five minutes. You get his perverse humour in the episode Rules of engagement where he asks Harry to let him watch as Harry nails his latest girlfriend. Also the episode 'What about Bob?' the ghost seriously kicks butt. I mean seriously. He literally destroys the recurring villain. I know you might not be familiar with who Terrence Mann is but I am. He's a Broadway icon and despite the fact that he's climbing up there in age he's freakin' agile. I've seen him leaping around a stage like he's twelve-years-old. They transformed him into an Oscar Wilde-esque ghost in the style of Sir Simon de Canterville which added a great deal of depth to Bob's character.

The fact is, everyone, even book fans preferred this. We had a survey over on Jim Butcher's forum. 90% of fans preferred the ghost. The ghost version of Bob has two active fan clubs and is the basis for a third of all Dresden Files fan fiction (www.fanfiction.net) and that also includes the book based fan fiction in that tally.

----------------------

'But really, I couldnt care less for any of the changes. Any changes made was not was turned me off to the show. Plain and simple, the reason I did not watch any more Dresden Files past the second episode (and why my mother didnt watch it past the fourth episode) is because I WAS BORED. I didnt care about the characters,'

I tell most people who didn't give the show a proper chance (those who only watched episode one and then fled because Murphy wasn't blonde, ect) to skip ahead to about episode six. The show picks up pace there and never loses it's stride (except in Storm Front but that's because it's a butchered version of the original two hour pilot. If you watch Storm Front, see if you can track down the two hour cut. It's very close to the books and reveals why the talking skull just wans't working. He had some great lines but non-book fans just couldn't take it seriously. It was either poor CGI skull (which looked cornier than words can descrbe) or a realistic puppet skull but alas it was still a talking skull and still not appealing to the non-book fans. Do you know why Jim Butcher originally made Bob a talking skull? Here's what I was told. He was in a Creative Writing class and asked to not have a 'talking head.' A talking head is a character specifically designed to feed information to the hero without having any other real purpose or personality. Out of spite the original incarnation of Bob was born. He was funny but in the end he wasn't a very well created character. He was a character created from spite and used for comic relief but on the show he had a great deal more. Also when you really pay attention to those books he had some serious continuity errors with that whole 'no free will' thing.

As the show went on Bob (Hrothbert of Bainbridge) came to be a great deal more complex. In the episode Soul Beneficiary you learn the reason he was condemned for all eternity is he tried to raise the woman he loved from the dead. This added some very interesting tragedy and complexity to his back story which lead to long and fascinating debates about him on the Scifi forum. And thanks to half-answered questions about his past the character became very mysterious.

The episode What about Bob? goes deep into Harry Dresden's past with Justin (the man who raised him after his father died) and Harry's magical education. In my opinion it was the best episode of the show. It featured a scene of Jim Butcher, himself. I usually tell people who are just watching the show for the first time to start there.

------------------------

'I didnt care about the stories, I just didnt care.'

From what you describe, it seems you didn't give it a proper chance because you didn't want to. You got upset because Jim Butcher and Robert Wolfe decided 'The thirteen-year-old on Red Bull' (That's what Jim Butcher called his version of Bob) just wasn't working. So they got the most sarcastic and witty bastard from Broadway theatre to take on the role.

---------------------------

'Yes I did not like the changes they made (in particular to poor Bob who didnt deserve the fate of being human-ified)'

See my statements above. If you want I'll GIVE you the original two hour pilot with the talking skull. And you tell me if fans would have actually liked that more. Yeah, you do that and then go over to the two fan clubs for the ghost and even Fanfiction.net or even the Scifi forum and you say that. See the sort of responses you'll get.

--------------------

'but I could have ignored them to enjoy the show. Thats what my mother told me to do. But we both got bored and didnt care enough to watch anymore.'

Episodes 1 and 2 were just to establish the premise. That's just judging Buffy The Vampire Slayer or Smallville based on their first episodes. It's nothing like the rest of the series. I think if you had watched the other episodes, as the show picked up pace, you might have warmed up to it's own charm.

Bob is still sarcastic and horny, he just has a little depth and tragedy now, kind of like Al in Quantum Leap. In fact episode 3 had some of his first truly great moments of debauchary.

Your beloved talking skull was flawed. He had serious continuity errors I've already described in a previous post. Changes had to be made.

Amanda - [JTheGoblinKing at aol dot com]
Existing to Confuse and Amuse!

Antiyonder > Well, I guess after 2002 its possible but Kim Possible is a kid's show while Elisa is very grown up in 2002. I dont know if I really see her watching Disney channel that much. I dont anymore, and Im not as old as Elisa is (not by a long shot).
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

Forgive the double post but I just looked up some info about Disney princesses. Toss out my Mulan idea. Mulan came out in June 1998. So maybe Halloween '98, Elisa can be Mulan.

Just so we all know, Disney princesses (and other popular female characters) created by Halloween '97, in time for the next Halloween in the Gargoyle verse would be:
~Snow White
~Cinderella
~Aurora
~Pocahontas
~Wendy
~Tinker Bell
~Alice
~Esmerelda
~Ariel
~Megera
~Sally

Disney characters not yet avalible by Halloween '97
~Mulan
~Jane
~Kida
~Frog Princess
~Rapunzel

So we can speculate Elisa's costume from this list (assuming they follow the Disney princess/leading female theme theyve had for her so far, which I hope they do; it just seems to fit somehow).

Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

Litwolf> I just meant down the line say after 2002.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]

Pocahontas! I didnt even think about her! That would be great.

Kim Possible isnt a Disney princess and also, correct me if Im wrong, wasnt around in 1996. Yeah, I just checked. Kim Possible was created in 2002. So no one currently knows about Kim Possible in Gargoyles, since its only 1996.

Oh, BTW, so Greg has confirmed that the paperbacks will be out in Jan, right? Thats great! A belated Christmas present! I cant wait. Oh, but does that mean we wont be able to ask any new questions of Greg until Jan '09?

Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

ADAM - The most likely answer is that Demona sought her revenge on Canmore at some point, in a way that encourged a branch of the family (not the branch that succeeded Canmore to the Scottish and eventually the English throne) to take up the feud all over again - only this time, being purely vengeance against Demona, without the political elements that it had when Duncan and Canmore were Hunters. (And it's a pity that it wasn't dealt with in "Hunter's Moon", but I suspect that there wasn't room for it.)
Todd Jensen

I think next, I'd really love to see Elisa as Pocahontas.
Ricky

Litwolf> How about Elisa dressing up as Kim Possible sometime?
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]

Adam> I'd have to watch the episodes again, but I think that Canmore wasn't even aware of Gil's personal vendetta against Demona. He just knew that Gil had an alternate identity as "the Hunter" and that he was perfectly happy to kill whoever Canmore wanted gone in that guise. So when Gil died, Canmore liekly thought that the Hunter persona could still be of some use to distance himself from some of the more unsavory acts he intended to commit. Same deal for when he thought Demona was dead (though he may have discovered at some later point that she was still alive.) The whole idea of the Hunter is this big mess of conflicting goals. Gil wanted to destroy Demona for scarring his face. Canmore had no interest in Demona aside from the fact that she was an ally of Macbeth, his real target. The modern Hunters have forgotten about the first Hunter and may well believe that this mask originated with the Canmores. And they probably have little idea of what Canmore's actual goals were.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

I was watching all four episodes of "City of Stone" and something came to mind. In part 2, after Gillecomgain was killed, why would Duncan take up the mask of the hunter? That doesn't make sense to me. I don't think he had a reason for it because he had (at the time) no known feud with Demona.

And in part 4, why would Canmore need to keep the Hunter persona alive since he himself believed that Demona was dead and said that the rest of her clan was destroyed.

In both of these instances, the Hunter legacy should have died but did not. Yet it continued for some reason.

Adam - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]

Amanda > ... wow, you took my little comment really really far. Let me say my thoughts on the Dresden Files very quickly.

I know that Jim Butcher supports the TV series. Im glad that he was able to enjoy the series that my mother and myself, loyal fans of the books, couldnt stomach. Im glad he thought the changes the film people made worked for the story. Personally, my mother and I cried when we saw that Bob had been made into a ghostly human. The charm of him is that he is an erotic-loving and all-knowing skull. They changed him into a stuffy older man.

But really, I couldnt care less for any of the changes. Any changes made was not was turned me off to the show. Plain and simple, the reason I did not watch any more Dresden Files past the second episode (and why my mother didnt watch it past the fourth episode) is because I WAS BORED. I didnt care about the characters, I didnt care about the stories, I just didnt care.

Yes I did not like the changes they made (in particular to poor Bob who didnt deserve the fate of being human-ified) but I could have ignored them to enjoy the show. Thats what my mother told me to do. But we both got bored and didnt care enough to watch anymore.

Thats why I dont like Dresden Files, the TV show. I never have much faith in things being turned from books to movies. Everyone around me suggests I step back from the book and try to enjoy the film. Even if I succeed in doing so, half the time I dont like the movie. Such was the case with Blood and Chocolate. They took one of my most favorite books and tore it apart. Im not even exagerating; how else can you desribe it when the film had THE EXACT OPPOSITE ENDING THE BOOK DID? A few friends asked, "Well, apart from the book, how was it?" I paused, thought a moment, and said, "Without thinking of the book, it was only okay."

Anyway, back to Gargoyles. I doubt Hudson will ever don a costume. Im hoping Elisa will convince Goliath to dress up next year, maybe to match her? Bronx? Hmm... maybe if Brooklyn dresses Fu-dog up, Bronx will want to get in on the fun.

Hey, if Elisa follows through with the Disney princess theme she's been doing at Halloween, who do you think she might do next? I cant even guess, Im too biased against the princesses (I love Jasmine, Belle, Ariel; cant stand most of the others). Maybe Mulan? Not truly a princess but certainly one of the few girls who decides to stand up for herself in Disney movies. She was always a favorite of mine and Elisa has proved she can pull of a kimono.

Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

Litwolf, another thing about the show / books issue of The Dresden Files. The writers of both wince when certain fans wish to make a divide. There does not need to be a divide. Just because one is different does not mean you can't like both. In fact up until this last May Robert Wolfe (head writer of the show) was a regular on Jim Butcher's forum. His very last post on the forum was a reply to me in regard to a question about Ancient Mai.

Now as for Puck... I don't mind him being with Alex his whole life but I like him better as Puck than as Owen and if Alex dies will he be trapped as Owen? I hope not. I really wish Puck's situation would be resolved.

Amanda - [JTheGoblinKing at aol dot com]
Existing to Confuse and Amuse!

ou think'

Okay, this is off topic but YIKES, man! Threatening to bash peoples skulls over a TV show on behalf of an author? You know Jim Butcher liked the show, right? He didn't mind the changes and in fact said that the version of Bob on the show works better (see the archives of his own forum for details, just keyword Hrothbert of Bainbridge, it's the very first post that mentions Bob's full name, it's Jim Butcher himself that brings it up). And when you get down to it Bob of the show actually does work better. Not only because he isn't a talking skull and is now actually a character with a back story but also because the continuity error is gone. There's a painful continuity error in the books in regard to Bob. (Bob is my favourite character of the show as Thomas is my favourite character of the books). The claim that Bob in the books has no free will is an error. It's damaging to the storyline. It's an error right up there with Harry's Middle name being 'Copperfield' and supposedly being named after the magician in that regard. The character was born before the magician Copperfield took the famous Dickens name so he can't be named after that magician. It was a mistake of bad math. Jim Butcher might be witty but he's imperfect. But I digress. Let's look at the facts about Bob. In the novel Dead Beat he chooses Harry over his former master at the end. That's an act of free will. So much for 'no free will.' And later we get the statement 'I'm glad I have no free will.' Being glad is an act of choice, an act of free will. No one comments or questions this happening in the books but it would have been blatant on a TV show. Every change had a reason and purpose. Murphy didn't look like Murphy because the blondes who auditioned couldn't get the personality right and didn't read the books. Valarie Cruz, however, did. They didn't use the Beetle because it's too small of a car. You can't fit a six and a half foot tall actor in there with sound equiptment. And then there's the price of Beetle parts. The network just couldn't afford it. They could barely afford Terrence Mann.

Jim Butcher only recently gave up trying to explain these things to his own readers over on his official forum. The show has plenty of fans who still miss the show, including those of us that DO also like the books. Does no one remember Jim Butcher, himself, appeared in the episode What about Bob? (He's in the morgue as an intern). Or how about the fact that the show literally tripled his fan base and at least two of the actors on the show got nominated for awards for their character portrayals. Amazon surveys say it's the most loved show of the Scifi Channel of the last two years.

And Jim Butcher WAS getting nice healthy royalty cheques from a show that was number three on the network's ratings until it wasn't renewed for reasons no one could figure out (considering it actually did have high ratings).

Yes, it strayed from the books but as Jim Butcher, himself, has tried to say 'It's a different universe from the books.'

Sometimes changes aren't bad. I'm a book collector. I know how wincable changes can be. You want to see bad changes from a book, watch Queen of the damned. That is headache causing. I liked the books and the show of The Dresden Files and I'm not the only one who did.

But really... I need to get this topic back over to Gargoyles. If you want to discuss The Dresden Files, you're weclome to join us here. The link I'm providing is one of the more active Dresden Files show forums on the net.

Amanda - [JTheGoblinKing at aol dot com]
Existing to Confuse and Amuse!

"By the way, anyone else find it weird that when you see Terrence Mann (voice of Oberon) today, particularly in the Hair of the Dog episode of The Dresden Files (he was in every episode of that show as Bob, the ghost) he's dressed exactly the way Oberon was in The Gathering Part 1 when he was trying to pass for human." Amanda

No... but what I do find weird is that everytime someone mentions the Dresden Files TV show, Im torn between the desire to break down and cry on behalf of the author, Jim Butcher, and the desire to storm over to the Sci Fi channel headquaters and bash some skulls in. How odd, dont you think? ^_^

As to Puck, I think he a particularly powerful fairy who enjoyed entertaining Oberon. After being sent to the human world, he enjoys mortals much more so, which is why he stood up for Xantos and family. I think Puck will have to remain by Alexander's side for the rest of Alex's life (who knows how long that will be since he's alive in 2198). Maybe, if Puck is lucky, Oberon will take some slight pity on him after the Space Spawn are defeated and may life his punishment off Puck. If he's really lucky.

Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

Halloween> A quick look at the Wikipedia article on the holiday seems to indicate that the currently existing clans most likely to celebrate Halloween are the Manhattan, Labyrinth, and London clans. I wouldn't be too surprised if the Labyrinth Clan gave Halloween a shot once they're a bit more settled. Members of the London Clan already pose as people in costume when minding the shop, so they may not see much point in it, but then again, they might like the idea, and the public's apparent positive attitude toward their local clan wouldn't hurt their chances. American cultural influence has caused American styled Halloween celebrations to spread to areas like England (which does have its own Halloween traditions that differed from the American ones) and even Japan (which also has very secular Christmas celebrations in some parts of the country). But since the Ishimura clan already lives openly among the humans of their hometown, I doubt they would see a point to celebrating the holiday if they don't already observe it alongside the humans. All the other clans are either in countries that don't observe Halloween or are just to isolationist to consider it. It would be interesting to find out if there are any other holidays that involve costumes or disguise that gargoyles in different parts of the world could participate in.

I wonder if Halloween might end up taking on a special significance for the entire Gargoyle Nation sometime in the future. We know that the Manhattan Clan in general and Goliath in particular are going to become very important to the gargoyles of the world as heroes (and possibly martyrs, in some cases) to the cause of peace between humans and gargoyles. So maybe Halloween will be celebrated by gargoyles around the world long after the idea of using the holiday as a way to walk among humans undetected is outdated because of its past meaning for the Manhattan Clan.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Demonscrye> Personally, I believe that other clans, having been around humans longer, likely would interact on Halloween if given the chance and it not going against their leader's belief in solitude/seclusion, etc. The problem may lay in where the clans are located as Halloween tends to be very American in its modern incarnation. But then again, it is my all-time favorite holiday:) I'd hire Goliath, Bronx, and Hudson to be actors in my house even though it presents a bad image on them. Bad, Jade! lol
Jade Griffin
"Foooooooood!!!"

I may look into that comic. Even if Gargoyles stops getting new comics. At least it got me back into comics in general. I wouldn't be reading Green Lantern, Supergirl, or Justice Society right now if it wasn't for Gargoyles.
Ozzie Arcane - [ozziearcane at yahoo dot com]
"Hello Booby! This is a trap!" - Eggplant Wizard

Published by Top Cow via Image Comics: http://www.topcow.com/Site/comics_dragonprince.html

Written by Ron Marz, Art by Lee Moder. I guess it's a four issue run, not five.

Review of #1: http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=user_review&id=344
Review of #2: http://comicbookresources.com/?page=user_review&id=402

Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]

Thanks for the recommendation, Landon. It sounds pretty cool. Who's the publisher and who are the creators?
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

I'm just posting to recommend a new limited comic series called Dragon Prince. Issue #2 of 5 was released this month. I won't spoil the story, except to say that it combines some plot elements of American Dragon with thematic elements of Gargoyles. The author specifically calls it 'all-ages' but tries to write for multiple age groups (sound familiar?). It's also a brand new universe that the author hopes to expand later--so it's immediately accessible. The art is great and I've been enjoying it. It's a nice distraction until January.
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]

That may be true but I do like Puck as Puck, no strings attached- the classic mischief making imp as he was in The Mirror... of course there were iron chains attached but that's besides the point. :-P
Amanda - [JTheGoblinKing at aol dot com]
Existing to Confuse and Amuse!

On Puck -- I'm just going to say that while it may not be likely that Puck is going to be able to return to Avalon anytime soon, he's hardly "trapped" as Owen . . . at least until the events of 2198. So long as he's protecting and teaching Alex, he has the ability to be Puck once more . . . and those conditions have been seen as rather 'negotiable,' considering how he chose to teach Alex in the episode "Possessions."

And despite him being banished, remember that Puck LIKES being Owen and being able to serve the Xanatos family. He's really enjoyed playing the "straight man." Oberon's punishment may be harsh, but Puck chose to stand up against Oberon -- and as Puck and not as "Owen," where one could see it as being an act of service.

Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka

The fact that we're out right told that in the show it's not in his backstory that he's Oberon's son so does that mean there is a back story on Puck's origin (witihin the show mythos) that we don't know about?
Amanda - [JTheGoblinKing at aol dot com]
Existing to Confuse and Amuse!

Poor Puck. :-(

Puck seems more than the typical servant. He seems to be more like a slave. His manacle bracelets are strikingly similar to Genie's and ironically even Bob's in The Dresden Files (Bob having been played by the man who voiced Oberon). Oberon even mentions that Titania is free to go where she pleases but Puck is 'his to command.' It also seems such a great character goes to waste in being locked inside Owen most of the time.

Amanda - [JTheGoblinKing at aol dot com]
Existing to Confuse and Amuse!

I believe Puck is purely Third Race, and the relationship I can figure from what we've seen between Oberon and Puck is very much lord and subject, albeit a favorite subject. There didn't seem to be much of the tension or feedback one would expect if the two were blood related. And, I suppose Puck could be reprieved from Oberon's punishment but it won't be for a long time, possibly not even after the events of 2198. Yeah, that's a long time, but between the slower time on Avalon and Oberon's own long memory, it's not likely to be taken off even after a couple centuries. As we've seen, Oberon tends to be very strict when it comes to his commandments. It may happen, but I wouldn't get my hopes up.
Asatira

LOL Algernon.

But still, that's horrible. Is poor Puck doomed to be Owen for all eternity? Surely Oberon will forgive him and take him back into the fold some day. It feels so unresolved. I love Puck.

I wonder why no one at Disney has thought to do an animated version of A midsummer Night's dream with these versions of Oberon, Titania and Puck.

Still, I want to see poor Puck freed from this punishment.

And the question still stands, was Puck born of two faeries, a faery and a mortal, or was he created via magick or was he once mortal? Who are his parents if he has any? How did he end up Oberon's servant. These are questions I'm surprised no one's asked Greg yet.

Amanda - [JTheGoblinKing at aol dot com]
Existing to Confuse and Amuse!

Amanda: I don't think that Puck is going to die any time soon. Remember, Owen is one of the characters in Gargoyles 2198. Though Puck can't come out because Alex has been abducted by the Space-Spawn and put in statis.
lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari

Algernon: LOL...
lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari

Amanda> "So what is the origin of the Gargoyles incarnation of Puck?"

Well when a mommy fairy and a daddy fairy really love each other...

Algernon
"Nobody can say I wasn't a perfect father, do you hear..? Nobody !" - Norman Osborn

Another thing I'd like to ask... Will Puck ever be free of Oberon's command that he never return to avalon and only use his powers when protecting or training Alex? Because I don't like the idea of Owen / Puck dying of old age if Alex dies. I love the little trickster.
Amanda - [JTheGoblinKing at aol dot com]
Existing to Confuse and Amuse!

I love Puck. In fact I have to say he's my favourite character on Gargoyles.

Now, before I begin this post let's be clear that I KNOW Puck came from Shakespeare's a Midsummer Night's dream but before that he was a character of folklore.

In most folklore Puck is the son of Oberon conceived from an affair with a mortal woman. Yes, granted Puck does sort of look like this on the show. Oberon's ears, long face and white hair with a human complexion however from what I've read Greg Weisman has made it pretty clear he does not like the idea of Puck being Oberon's literal child.

So what is the origin of the Gargoyles incarnation of Puck? Was he born a faery? Was he created by magick? If he was born were his parents servants of Oberon too? Was a mortal who got the wrong end of a deal to gain faery power and thus ended up a slave of the faery king for all eternity?

What is The Puck's back story? How did he become Oberon's servant?

By the way, anyone else find it weird that when you see Terrence Mann (voice of Oberon) today, particularly in the Hair of the Dog episode of The Dresden Files (he was in every episode of that show as Bob, the ghost) he's dressed exactly the way Oberon was in The Gathering Part 1 when he was trying to pass for human.

http://www.selmak.org/pages/ter/24/index.htm

Amanda - [JTheGoblinKing at aol dot com]
Existing to Confuse and Amuse!

So the Manhattan Clan's favorite holiday - Halloween - is just 11 days away. Seems like as good a time as any to talk about All Hallow's Eve in the "Gargoyles" universe. What did you particularly like about "Eye of the Beholder"and/or issues #3-#5 of the comic? How would you dress up the clan if given the opportunity? Will Goliath, Hudson, and Bronx ever get into costumes? Is the idea of going out on Halloween going to catch on with other clans that live in areas where humans dress up for the holiday?

Sorry for any typos; I just got back from the eye doctor and my pupils are still dialated, so my ability to read is a bit shot.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Dead last at 10th.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

(9)Nine!
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]

Huite.
Brook

7th! Ha!

... now, to go get some sleep. Yay for school tomorrow...

lonerider26 - [<--That's my devArt gallery :)]
"The story is told--though who can say if it be true..." ~Shari

Heck, why not? 6th
Charisma82
"Dean, did you pay any attention in history class?" "Yeah. Shot heard 'round the world, how bills become laws... " "That's not school; that's schoolhouse rock!" Sam & Dean from Supernatural

Sorry, my computer did that weird double post thing again...so...sorry for the triple post.
Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
"You cannot make a cup of tea large enough, or a book long enough to suit me."--C.S. Lewis

5th
Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
"You cannot make a cup of tea large enough, or a book long enough to suit me."--C.S. Lewis

5th
Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
"You cannot make a cupe of tea large enough, or a book long enough to suit me."--C.S. Lewis

4th from work on my break (Mcdonalds)
vickyuk

alive and still kicking!
Demona May - [realdemona at yahoo dot come]
Not Dead yet!

Second!
Ricky

First!
Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka