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The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending September 7, 2009

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Antiyonder> Ahh, forgive me.
Guardian - [Guardian105 at gmail dot com]

After finally becoming in stock, there are only two copies of Bad Guys left at Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Gargoyles-Bad-Guys-Greg-Weisman/dp/1593621930

I don't know how many books SLG sends to Amazon, but this is a little pick-me-up for those hoping that the stock problems are more due to popularity than a fault in SLG's supply chain. We're still waiting on Clan-Building vol. 2 to get fully in stock. Considering my copy shipped on Wednesday, perhaps the first shipment went straight to pre-orders. SLG being unable to meet demand may not be all bad if it makes an impression.

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter feed]

Demonskrye> I can't see any reason you wouldn't be able to write up summaries for the Marvel Comics, but you might want to ask about it on the discussion page for the Marvel Comics article. Except for granting editing privileges, most of the discussion about GargWiki is done on GargWiki.

Noted, and done.

Guardian> Since the Marvel comics aren't considered canon, you might want to argue that any reviews you write or reference be placed into the Apocrypha section of the GargWiki.

I know where to place the info, but what I'm looking to get permission for is copy and pasting the info in question.



Antiyonder: Since the Marvel comics aren't considered canon, you might want to argue that any reviews you write or reference be placed into the Apocrypha section of the GargWiki.

I, personally, think those things should have all the information we can possibly get. That's what a Wiki is, after all.

Guardian - [Guardian105 at gmail dot com]

We don't talk about WickedPedia in here . . . :-P

Whoah, you miss a day and things happen. Or maybe this was all during the awesome conversation in s8 last night.

Merc, I have to admit that, with the way you chose your words, some people could have interpreted them in an offensive; I almost did. "Someone becomes an anti-hero just because of the Holocaust?" . . . *shrugs* If you can clarify, maybe I'll understand.

So we've spoken about the classic X-Men, what about the Ultiverse? I actually stopped reading it before Ultimatum, so I don't really know if Ultiverse Apocalypse has any part in that. But here's something to promote what Greg B had been saying: From what I can remember in the Ultiverse, Ultiverse Apocalypse is just a fuckin' second personality in Mister Sinister's mind. What does <b>that</b> say about one-dimensional villains? Hah! Too funny!

Re: Rebel . . . TGS actually had a pro-Gargoyles group called the PIT crew. I assume that, given more leg room, Greg Weisman will eventually create a similar group, or at least a group that condemns the Quarrymen's actions. If I remember correctly, they eventually become responsible mostly for destroying priceless statues -- I think some rich people would be very angry about that.
But Todd has a point. In all honesty, if I heard that Gargoyles existed, I'd probably be scared shitless for my dog. I'd be outside with her every night with a baseball bat making sure she didn't get picked up by some hungry Gargoyle.
Rebel, I'm going to guess you're not a product of the media. Good for you! You'd be one of the few humans on Patrick's rooftops maybe? ;)

Re: Patrick . . . Though, in all fairness, if you're referring to what I <b>think</b> you're referring to, I think you're absolutely right. "Oh I hope those flying winged things bring back Elvis!"

Guardian - [Guardian105 at gmail dot com]

The main line X-books have a tendency to make my head hurt.

The original idea for Mr Sinister is kind of interesting, but from what I can recall of the character, it doesn't really snap into place like a missing puzzle piece for me. Less "Oh, of course! It all makes sense now!" and more "Huh. Well that's new." I just don't see much about Sinister that would make a lot more sense if I knew he was the product of a young boy's mind. (No offense meant to anyone who does think that this is a cool idea; it just doesn't work for me personally.)

Merc> While i think the ability to think schemes through is part of what makes a good villain, it's not enough to make a good villain on its own. I can't really recall exactly what Apocalypse was after and I never found out what Mr. Sinister was trying to accomplish. Villains without clear motivations aren't all that interesting to me because it can make their "evil" actions seem kind of generic and unmotivated. With Magneto, at least I could understand what he wanted and why. He may have been sidetracked from that goal in the comics pretty frequently, but I get what he's about and I know what to expect when I see him show up in other media.

Antiyonder> I can't see any reason you wouldn't be able to write up summaries for the Marvel Comics, but you might want to ask about it on the discussion page for the Marvel Comics article. Except for granting editing privileges, most of the discussion about GargWiki is done on GargWiki.

Demonskrye - [<---"Toy Story" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

Todd > Prior to Gargoyles the show, I had never experienced any other fictional depictions of gargoyles. At least none that I can remember. I just knew them as statues that supposedly ward evil spirits away from buildings. The only other fictional depictions of Gargoyles I can think of are that Marvel character from the 80's and that crappy B-quality gargoyles movie.

Todd Jensen> Sato? When did he see a tape about gargoyles? Are you certain you weren't thinking of Judge Roebling (who *did* see a tape of them in "Vows")?

That's what I meant. My mistake.


I think we had a pretty clear example about 8 years ago of how quickly the vast majority of the populace will jump on the bandwagon of "All [insert name of the other group that's different from us] are bad!" when something shocking has just happened involving the other.

I hope I'm not being too obtuse there.

Granted... I'm guessing there'd be a few humans in the "Gargoyles" universe dancing on the rooftops like those people in "Independence Day". :P

Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2009]
"I for one welcome our new alien overlords." - Kent Brockman, "The Simpsons"

ANTIYONDER - Sato? When did he see a tape about gargoyles? Are you certain you weren't thinking of Judge Roebling (who *did* see a tape of them in "Vows")?
Todd Jensen

Bishansky>I SAY I SAY SON CHILL OUT. That was just the best comparission I could do. No need to take it literally. I did not come back so I would have to deal with this $#!& again.
Merc with a Mouth
Wade Wilson

Rebel> I think human reaction to gargoyles depend entirely on how the human is introduced to a gargoyle. Take Elisa's reaction in Awakening, Part Three and Sentinel:

1. Awakening, Part Three: While she was trying to get away, she was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt since he saved her from falling.

2. Sentinel: He basically kidnapped her from a hotel room, and thus she has more of a reason to distrust and fear him

Xanatos tends to take things in stride (such as being held over the edge of a building), thus even if any bit of him was afraid, he certainly wouldn't show it.

Sato and Derek were shown tapes of their existence before meeting them in person, thus could handle seeing them or not panicing.


REBEL - Remember that gargoyles are so often portrayed in fantasy fiction and fantasy games as evil monsters that this interpretation has probably entered humanity's interpretation of them via osmosis. Aside from the television series (which wouldn't exist within the universe that it creates), how many fictional treatments of gargoyles as something other than malevolent predators are out there to outweigh that portrayal? Humanity's depiction of anything with batlike wings, claws, fangs, and a vulnerability to daylight as evil is doing a great job of programming humans into fearing gargoyles. If we hadn't seen the series, what would be the first thing that popped into our heads when we heard the word "gargoyles"?
Todd Jensen

Regarding humans > While Gargoyles may have done a better job than X-Men of showing that human responses to "the other" aren't all homogeneous, I still felt that Gargoyles was (and is), a little lacking in that department.

Admittedly, many of the humans who actually meet the gargoyles are fairly easy to win over, as far as realizing they aren't monsters. Elisa, Derek, Xanatos, Dr. Sato, Matt Bluestone, etc...But the response of humans who haven't yet met the gargoyles seems to be pretty much all the same, based on what we've seen so far. I hope that if Gargoyles gets more trade paperbacks, Greg will show us a group of humans who are gargoyle supporters, despite not having met them first. I feel like there needs to be a group like that, for the sake of being realistic. I suspect that if gargoyles were real and I was living in Manhattan, I wouldn't have immediately jumped to negative conclusions about them, and in fact I might have been supportive. Do humans like me not exist in the Gargoyles Universe? I hope they do.


<<Someone who plays God with DNA or is worse than Hitler>>





Are you calling a fictional character worse than Hitler?


Never mind... you're not worth it.

Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]

I was refering to GargWiki.

Algernon> Try but the creators of Wikipedia are very strict and don't even let you change things from was to is or vice versa or even add obvious stuff in there unless you have a source believe me I've tried.
Merc with a Mouth
Wade Wilson

Provided I was to credit the review writer and link to the page, would I be permitted to add the summaries for the Marvel Comics Gargoyles on to the appropriate Wikipages?

ALGERNON - Good point about "X-Men". I think that one major advantage that "Gargoyles" had over "X-Men" was that the humans in "Gargoyles" had a much wider range of responses to the gargoyles, with some humans accepting them, other humans fearing and hating them. (And I also think it added to the complexity that the very human who betrayed Castle Wyvern to the Vikings did so on behalf of the gargoyles - and that the gargoyles' initial chief human adversary in the modern world isn't prejudiced against the gargoyles; he just wants to use them for his own benefit, but he's ready to use his fellow humans for his own benefit equally.)

Demona would probably look upon Magneto and other mutants as just more humans, but I think she'd also agree to an alliance with him if she thought that it was useful for her - while planning, all the while, to dispose of Magneto and his followers as soon as she decided that she no longer needed them. Just as she did with Xanatos.

Todd Jensen

On my last post I made a little typo cause I was in a little hurry. Anyway I think Apocalypse and Sinister think their schemes through which makes them good villains.

Antiyonder> In the 80's Magneto was not a villain he led the X-men while Xavier was MIA being taken care of by Lilandra. He went evil again in the 90's before Xavier completely mindwiped him and he was good again. In other words Magneto has not even been a villain for most of the comics. I'm pretty sure if something happened to Professor X again Magneto would reform. It why I prefer Sinister and Apocalypse they're completely evil and badass. Someone who plays God with DNA or is worse than Hitler is much better at being a villain than I guy who be went half anti-hero because of the Holocaust

Merc with a Mouth
Wade Wilson

Merc with a Mouth> Granted, the 1960s Magneto had nothing going for him, it's the personality and background he gets in the 80s that is the real appeal of the character.

As for Sinister, the closest I would say he was to being interesting would be during the episode Descent from X-Men The Animated Series.

I'm hoping that Claremount will use his original plan for the character during X-Men Forever. The plan in question:

"When Chris Claremont first introduced Mr. Sinister, the idea was that the character we knew as Mr. Sinister was actually a product of the mutant mind of a child. A child who could never age. Essentially, a twisted version of the relationship between Billy Batson and Captain Marvel.

Claremont first mainly laid these plans out in the pages of Classic X-Men, where he featured stories of Scott Summers' upbringing as an orphan in an orphanage. There there was a boy who was fascinated with Scott, and whatever the boy wanted to have happen, suddenly Mr. Sinister would show up and do what the boy wanted to have happen.

The reveal would be that the boy WAS Mr. Sinister - which is why the name is so dorky - as this villain would be the product of the mind of a child.

The only problem is, this child would never grow up, leaving Mr. Sinister to become more and more his public persona."

Info comes from: http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2006/11/23/comic-book-urban-legends-revealed-78/


BIshansky>I'm done and yeah Spideyforever's a past life. I just think Apocalypse and Sinister think their schemes through which makes them through with makes them good villains. All Magneto does is recruit a mutant army and destroy things or attempt assaults or politicians which any villain can do and then gets all upset if something happens to Professor X. Intelligence wise Sinister and Apocalypse are better. Not saying Magneto's stupid though.
Merc with a Mouth
Wade Wilson

GREG B> "On that note, Greg also mentioned this at the con. Tazmanian Tiger is very rich, and he was doing the supervillain thing for the thrill of it. Paraphrasing it from memory, but something like that."

Makes sense, costumed supervillainy, while no doubt fun, is hardly a practical way of making money.


Superheroes and supervillains are certainly interesting because of what they can do, but in my opinion, what they can't do is very important as well. A hero or villain with super powerful abilities is less interesting than one who isn't as powerful but can still get their goals accomplished by using their head or being fueled by powerful motivations.

This does not apply to werewolves. Werewolves should always be ridiculously powerful.


ALGERNON> <<Xanatos isn't a genetics expert, Sevarius is the one who handels all the mad science and he doesn't even work for Xanatos anymore.>>

I think Greg mentioned at the Gathering that Sevarius is freelance now. So, we're likely to see him doing work for Xanatos in the future. He's not on staff at Nightstone Unlimited. Just freelance. Hell, he cloned those thylacines for the Tazmanian Tiger, freelance.

On that note, Greg also mentioned this at the con. Tazmanian Tiger is very rich, and he was doing the supervillain thing for the thrill of it. Paraphrasing it from memory, but something like that.

Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]

MERC> Xanatos isn't a genetics expert, Sevarius is the one who handels all the mad science and he doesn't even work for Xanatos anymore.

As for Sinister and Apocalypse being better villains the Magneto. Well that sort of thing is pretty subjective but I'd have two agree with Greg B on this. I admit i kinda like both Sinister and Apocalypse, but both these guys are pretty one note compared to Magneto. Just making a villain insanely powerful doesn't make them interesting characters, any writer can do that. Here watch...

Lod Darkblooddoomhawkoblivionkillsalot is two hundred times more powerful then Superman, God and Chuck Norris put together and has the ability to destroy the entire omniverse with his belches.

See, by your logic I just created the greatest super-villain of all time.


MERC> If you think those two are better villains than Magneto, I see no further need to keep debating you. Sorry. Magneto is something Apocalypse and Sinister are not. He is a three dimensional character.

As for Xanatos. Since when is he an expert at genetics? His freelance employee, Anton Sevarius, is an expert on genetics.

You never, by any chance posted here under the name, Spideyforever, have you?

PATRICK> Yup, Demona would look down on Magneto as just a human.

Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]

That stuff is true. However the only similarity I was pointing out is Xanatos and Sinister are both experts on genetics. Both Apocalypse and Sinister are better villains than Magneto because they think their schemes through and are quite intelligent villains. Magento's all I'm gonna recruit a bunch of powerful mutants destroy the city and fight the X-men and if Xavier dies I'll be a great big pussy about it. Apocalypse is a much harder villain for the X-men to fight and can pretty much defeat anybody.
Merc with a Mouth
Wade Wilson

Somehow I think Demona would still consider Magneto a human.
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

GREG B> "And you know what, it has always made for fascinating debates on morality and ethics when one is discussing Xavier and Magneto. Personally, I think making nice with those who are trying to kill you is stupid at best. If I were a mutant, I'd join Magneto's Brotherhood before I joined the X-Men."

I think the problem is that most versions of the X-Men tend to have is that non-mutant humans are presented almost monolithicaly as violently fanatical bigots who can't possibly be reasoned with. There seems to be no room in the x-verse for an Eliza Maza or Matt Bluestone.

Also I gotta wonder how the X-Men expect to forment peace and understanding between mutants and non-mutants by cutting themselves off from the outside world in their secret heavily fortified compound.

For that matter where are the non-mutant members of the various X-teams? This is one of the reasons I always prefered the classic Avengers to the X-Men. Human, Mutant, Android or Norse God they were open to anyone who wanted to protect the earth and all it's people. They actually practiced what Xavier merely preached.


MERC> Xanatos and Mr. Sinister both have penises also. Does that make them similar?

Apocalypse being pure evil is not something that I would say adds points to his character. He's just...

I know I'm in the minority on this, but I think characters like Apocalypse and Mr. Sinister are really, really lame villains.

It took over a decade for either of them to be defined at all. Apocalypse was a great big powerful uber mutant who had this ill defined survival of the fittest thing going. Sinister, we didn't know what he was about for over a decade, then they connected him with Apocalypse, which came out of no where.

The problem was, they were both introduced as "mysterious" villains, and nothing was revealed about them, hints that went no where, it was dragged out, creative teams changed, new ideas were added, and what we got was a jumbled mess.

And you know what, it has always made for fascinating debates on morality and ethics when one is discussing Xavier and Magneto. Personally, I think making nice with those who are trying to kill you is stupid at best. If I were a mutant, I'd join Magneto's Brotherhood before I joined the X-Men.

Thing about Apocalypse is, pretty much every plan he's ever tried to enact (with the possible exception of his first appearance) has been complete crap. He's got a killer rep, but you have to look beneath the surface: is he actually an interesting character? Has he really done anything too villainous? His greatest success has been in an alternate reality, for crying out loud... what's our Poccy ever done? And sadly, the answer is: not much. We're told frequently that his power is immense... but again, when is that evidenced? He doesn't fight hand-to-hand too often. His powers are entirely generic- shape-changing, getting bigger, super-strong, fire energy blasts.

Just as an exercise, stack Apocalypse up against Magneto: Mags has interesting, innovative powers; a deep, nuanced backstory; a philosophical stance that you can actually relate to, sometimes even support; and actual character development on his side. Poccy has none of those things, with the arguable exception of a mildly interesting backstory. It's just not enough. When Apocalypse is due to appear, I roll my eyes and think, "Oh crap, three months of bellowing about 'Survival of the fittest!' and world-shattering events, at the end of which absolutely nothing will be different."

Which, frankly, is Apocalypse's other problem as a character- his rep is such that every appearance has to be a MEGA HUGE EVENT, after which the X-Men's lives "will never be the same!" And then the story comes and goes, and the status quo is exactly the same, except Cyclops is dead for three months or Wolverine is evil but will probably be good again in the other 5 books he appears in this month. You can do a one-off issue with Magneto, you can do a story investigating Mystique's past, or Sebastian Shaw's motivations for what he does. You try to do anything less than an ultra-big life-altering story with Apocalypse, it ain't happening. He's the summer blockbuster of X-Men villains... and like most summer blockbusters, the first one was pretty fun but most of the sequels have sucked, and sucked hard.

But hey, that's just my opinion... I could be wrong.

Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]

@ Greg B: Don't forget that comparisons of that kind are mostly fueled by a tiny likeness (see also the Joker/Carnage-team-up).
Personally, I think Magneto and Demona would make a good fit.

I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

Bishansky> They both do genetic experiments on people which makes them similar. Apocalypse isn't lame he is way bad ass and pure evil can't say the same for Magneto has a LOT of good of in him.
Merc with a Mouth
Wade Wilson

MERC> No offense, but comparing Xanatos to Sinister is, frankly, a little preposterous. They have as much in common as apples and steam engines.

And as for Apocalypse and Demona. Please, no. For one thing, Demona is a complex and psychological character. Apocalyse is not. Apocalypse is, well, very lame.

I'm sorry, but your comparisons don't hold any water.

Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]

By the way guys you can just write Merc or Deadpool when you reply to me since I'm using his nickname and real name as my username
Merc with a Mouth
Wade Wilson

Bishansky> I was quick posting so I left stuff out. She is more of a combination of the two mainly because her hatred for mankind represents Magneto and how old she is represents Apocalypse. I just said an alliance between Demona and Apocalypse would no doubt happen if they crossed Gargoyles over with Marvel. Xanatos is without a doubt the Gargoyles Sinister.
Merc with a Mouth
Wade Wilson

TODD> Time travel in the Marvel Universe, seems to operate under the general rule of "make it up as you go along".

While it might be possible for Marvel to start publishing comics based on Disney properties, I sincerely doubt they'd try and shoe horn any of them into their main universe. They also do comics based on the Anita Blake books, the Halo video games and Stephen King's Dark Tower.


BISHANSKY - Thanks for the time travel remark; I hadn't thought about it, but from what I know about time travel in the Marvel Universe, it doesn't seem all that compatible with the time travel rules of the Gargoyles Universe.

And "The Spectacular Spider-Man" probably would be more compatible with "Gargoyles" than the general Marvel Universe; it's more small-scale. Just Spidey, his friends, and enemies, without the larger Marvel elements as yet.

Todd Jensen

If, and I mean just IF... if Greg had to combine the Gargoyles Universe with a Marvel Universe... I'd prefer if it was "The Spectacular Spider-Man" simply because he has creative control over it and "Gargoyles"

Not the regular Marvel Universe. I love me some Marvel, but... well... let' just say that time travel in Marvel makes no sense. It's been abused badly.

Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]

Sorry for the double post, but "super-monsters" was supposed to be "super-villains". Another sloppy piece of editing, alas.
Todd Jensen

I don't think that "Gargoyles" would work as part of the Marvel Universe. For one thing, from what I've read about the Marvel Universe, the weird and bizarre (super-heroes, super-monsters, alien invasions, etc.) are public knowledge there, while the fantastic elements of the Gargoyles Universe are secret, known to the public only as myths and legends, if at all - at least until the gargoyles are exposed at the end of "Hunter's Moon Part Three", and even then, the public only find out that the gargoyles exist, without any similar revelations of King Arthur, Oberon's Children, Nokkar, etc. (The New Olympians will be revealing themselves eventually, but it won't be until some time after the gargoyles' revelation, since Terry Chung is only twelve at the time of "Hunter's Moon" and "The Journey".)

I think that the gargoyles' exposure would have had different consequences in the Marvel Universe; people would expect the Fantastic Four or the Avengers to handle the gargs, and see little need to solve the problem themselves by joining the Quarrymen.

Also, the Gargoyles Universe's handling of real-world myths and legends wouldn't be compatible with the Marvel Universe's handling of them; for example, I don't think that the depiction of Asgard and the Norse gods in "The Mighty Thor" would fit the "Gargoyles" interpretation of Odin (and presumably the rest of the Aesir) as members of the Third Race.

Todd Jensen

MERC WITH A MOUTH> I'm sorry, but I don't see what those characters have in common with each other. Demona is more like Magneto than Apocalypse, and even then, the similarities are superficial... at best.
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]

A lot of people already know about the Nostalgia Critic and the review he did of Gargoyles. What I just discovered is that he added lyrics to the theme song. Maybe others already knew about it but I just found it and so wanted to pass it on. Its quite amusing! :)


<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

Gargoyles crossing over with Marvel would be so awesome. Especially with X-men. Demona and Xanatos team up with Sinister and Apocalypse. I mean they're so alike Xanatos=Sinister Demona=Apocalypse.
Not to mention a backstory of Demona's first encounter with Apocalypse. Am I right?

Merc with a Mouth
Wade Wilson

I recall at least one comics fan who said that Gargoyles should be imported into the Marvel Universe.

Blaise, Purplegoldfish - Bad Guys spoiler: [SPOILER] This is what I interpreted as the cultural significance of Yama's "suicide": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seppuku Except for a gargoyle it would considerably more survivable, so it's kind of the combo of two cultures. Human culture vs. Gargoyle culture. Japan vs. West. How does a local gargoyle clan interpret local human culture? I think it might become one of my favorite moments from the series. [/SPOILER]

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter feed]

I wanted to do a few minor edits on GargWiki and it said this:

"To edit pages on the Gargoyles Wiki, create an account then request write access for your username in the S8.org Comment Room."

I created an account and confirmed my email address. What exactly do I say when I request access for my username?


Todd > I'm more worried about Goofy's fans.
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

PATRICK - I wonder how many Spiderman fans will get nightmares from that page. :)
Todd Jensen

Spidey will be crossed over all right...


Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Todd> I pointed out the irony to Jen a few days ago. makes me wonder if such a thing could happen now
Greg Bishansky

Well, the trades are out, and I'm eagerly awaiting my copy of Clan-Building Vol.2. Meanwhile, I'm the happy owner of the Bad Guys TPB! :-) Finally, the story's complete!

[SPOILER] And now I'm wondering how long it'll be before we get serious updates for Dingo's entry at the wiki, given the information established in "Strangled". Here's hoping it comes soon, and that we can get more details on Falstaff's band. [/SPOILER]

Echowarrior - [WARendfeld at aol dot com]

I just thought of something. Does anybody else find it a bit creepy that Greg Weisman writes a crossover between "Gargoyles" and "The Spectacular Spider-Man" for the Gathering's Radio Play, and then a little over a week after the Gathering, Disney buys Marvel?
Todd Jensen

****An anaconda slithers into the Room and morphs into Blaise.**** I'm finally starting to write my reviews on "Clan-Building" issues 9-12. I'll post them in "Ask Greg" but will hold off on posting them in here until after the Room clears on Sunday night/Monday morning. In the meantime, there was something I felt I just had to respond to.

[SPOILER] One thing you need to keep in mind is that Greg Weisman is writing this as though it will be its own series, and this is essentially the "pilot" (the "BAD GUYS" version of "Awakening," if you will). By that I mean that, of course, Falstaff and most of his crew get away--they will be recurring foes for our heroes. I mean, how many series start with the bad guy being completely defeated? Well, okay, Xanatos was taken to jail at the end of "Awakening" but you knew he'd still be a threat, and Demona was still out there. The point is, the story wasn't meant to have a major resolution this early.
As for them not accomplishing anything material (capture the bad guys, recover the treasure, etc.), I'm pretty sure that was intentional. I mean, Yama (and to a lesser extent, Fang) pretty much spells that out at the end of the book (the "Results are immaterial..." speech). It's not the "Mission: Accomplished" for them, it's redemption (or just surviving in Fang's case). It's not the destination, it's the journey--that sort of thing. THAT is the moral, not what Yama was about to say--he was just about to say how they would know their journey had reached its destination. Of course, he had to know the sun was coming up, so maybe he left them hanging on purpose. ;-)
The fight with the robots, to be fair, was all there in the "BAD GUYS" leica reel that Greg would show at every Gathering. He had to put that in the comic just to show what they were doing there at that island. I actually don't think any of the fights were boring or lame. They occurred naturally to me, and helped build both world and character. Plus with Greg's directions and Karine's art they were beautifully executed. Besides, "BAD GUYS" always struck me as being meant to have more "high octane" action than "GARGOYLES," so it fits the tone of the series.
And it only stands to reason that we still don't know a great deal about Dingo and Falstaff, or Fang's past, or much about Falstaff's crew--we're not supposed to yet! There's supposed to be an air of mystery in these areas. That's all stuff for future stories (and people have got to buy the book for those to come out)! And with all these questions, I don't need to hear them given "a next assignment" to be eager for more stories about the Redemption Squad.
As for Yama taking a stab to the gut better than Goliath...okay, be fair. Goliath was hit dead center with a wide and thick blade. Yama was stabbed a bit right of center (left from his POV) with a slim, thin blade. Also, taking an opponent's sword into one's own body to disarm them is an element I've seen in Japanese samurai anime before, so it may be a cultural training thing ("prepare for the hit so that it misses your vitals" sort of thing).
"BAD GUYS" worked for me, and I thought the ending was great.
Just out of curiosity, what was it about Falstaff that did not work for you? [/SPOILER]

Until next time! ****Blaise flaps his arms very fast, becomes a hummingbird, and flies out the window.****


Well, I just posted my Gathering Journal to Ask Greg. And my photos can be found when you click on my name. I know some have rather nasty red eye, but I can't find the software to fix that problem (CD is AWOL).

Another copy of the con journal will be posted to my site either tonight or tomorrow.


My copy of the Bad Guys TPB finally arrived today. It left a lot of unanswered questions, but I thought it was fantastic! I hope one day we get a follow-up with more Redemption Squad stories.

Also, it was great to finally see the cover for #5, although I wish it was a larger colored version. I'm kinda surprised it's not up at GargWiki.


Phoenician> LOL:)

Becky> I think it'd look cool! But he's right. She might be a mom but she ain't no lover, nor currently able to be a caregiver. Not sure if she'd actually WANT another child in her current state of mind.

Jade Griffin - [jade_griffin at hotmail dot com]
"Food, food, FOOD!!" - Jade Griffin, on many occasions

PHOENICIAN - [SPOILER] Find a way of getting onto the boat that will take you from Denmark to Britain. That's all I can say at the moment; I don't know how far along you've gotten beyond getting to meet both Othello and Desdemona. [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen

Well I haven't got my BG copy yet :( Ordered it with Amazon UK ages before the release date, but still seem to be "having problems with their supplier". Oh well.
Brigadoon Traveller

Hey ya'll. If I haven't posted this yet, I happen to have gotten my copy of BADGUYS, Vol.1 through Amazon with the 2 day shipping and no problems :3
It's a great read and I hope others get theirs soon :D

BALRON - [RobertoTh3ba1r0n at yahoo dot com]
Roberto Rivera

DARN you Todd! . . . I've been playing that text-adventure for HOURS now . . . [SPOILER] (I still haven't found Macbeth, but I get a real kick out of Desdemona and Ophelia d:) [/SPOILER]
"The suspense is terrible . . . I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka

All right, I decided that the anti-virus program was the problem, and uninstalled it, and my access to Station 8 is working great again. Thank goodness that's over. And sorry for the double post.
Todd Jensen

I may not be visiting this room as often as I used to. My computer's suddenly developed an allergy to this site (just after I upgraded my Webroot Antivirus program), and I don't know how long it'll last. It's frustrating, but until I can find out what's going on, I don't think I can come by here on my own computer that much.
Todd Jensen

Gathering Journal is now up. My smartass remarks aren't as plentiful as they've been on past Journals. Guess I need to hook my muse's nipples up to the car battery again. Anyway:


All that remains is pic-sorting. Hopefully, I'll have those up next week.

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
Never bring an ice cream truck to a taser fight!

Here's something for everyone here who's a Shakespeare fan as well as a Gargoyles fan, an oddball text adventure adaptation of "Hamlet":


It contains cameos by several Shakespeare characters from other plays - but you'll have to play the game to find out which ones.

Todd Jensen

For those who missed the Gathering, this artist is posting some awesome Disney Princess/Gargoyles artwork... http://bri-chan.deviantart.com/art/snow-white-garg-134667609

I'm *still* waiting for my copy to reach the bookstore. Fifteen days since its publication, and it hasn't arrived yet. I hope that if SLG does any more "Gargoyles" graphic novels, it handles the delivery and distribution better.
Todd Jensen

Totally off topic:
some thoughts on the Bad Guys trade:

[SPOILER] hrm, I'm not sure what exactly to make of it as a whole, but I must say I was disappointed with how it ended. They didn't actually accomplish anything (aside from Sevarius' plot, but he's free to wreak havoc again). We're not even given the moral because Yama turns to stone before he finishes his thought. (Though I do think Fang's comment about gargoyles was hilarious)

There were a lot of little things I liked, mostly having to do with the pasts of the characters, but as a whole, I thought it could be better. The last two comics felt like I was reading a different comic, namely X-men. We are introduced to these weird characters with unexplained super powers and all we get with them is two boring fight scenes. Oh and we learn that Yama has a super power of his own: He feels no physical pain! I mean, the guy was run through the middle with a sword and he's not even phased! Geeze, Goliath's wound didn't even look that bad and he nearly died. Maybe Goliath's just a pansy ;P.

I hate Falstaff, and I can't connect him with the earlier John Oldcastle. He goes from wife-beater thief (literally and figuratively)to Renaissance-Santa thief. OK. I wish there was more with Dingo and Falstaff and their past (and more of Fang's past, for that matter), instead we get another lame fight scene. The fight scenes in the book took up way too much space, IMHO, particularly fighting the giant robots. We would have come to the same conclusions without them fighting those guys.

In all honesty, if I had seen the book before hand,I probably wouldn't have bought it. I did enjoy the character moments, but I think the main story could have used some work. The group doesn't even have another assignment that we know of.It would be nice if we had some more information on what's going to happen next with them. [/SPOILER]


DK2> I live in Canada. I order from AMAZON.COM all the time and get my stuff here in Edmonton. I never, or hardly ever, use Amazon.ca unless the price will be cheaper (with the free shipping) than Amazon.com.

So defiantly check out Amazon.com!

Secondly, I got my Trades from a comic shop. So yes, they are comming to Canada...

battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

I'll make one comment regarding the indefinite postponement of Season 2, Volume 2. If I had a dollar for every time I heard or saw someone say "I'll buy Volume 1 together with Volume 2 once both are out," I'd probably have enough mad money to subsidize one more "Gargoyles" convention. It's ironic that the people who refuse to buy anything until they can get the complete set are in fact contributing to the reason why there will never be a complete set. The sad hard truth of DVD sales, conventions, and just about everything else is that money spent NOW is infinitely more valuable than promises of "I'll buy that DVD later" or "Maybe I'll go next year."
Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Guardian> Well, what Wingless is pointing out is that Disney owns a number of channels, including some which only runs ads for other Disney programming. So while i still wouldn't be free since they would have to pay for someone to edit the ad together and someone to provide the voice over at the very least, they wouldn't necessarily have to pay for the ad space.

Wingless> Even though "Gargoyles" may have been a bit of an oddball from Disney's point of view, I think Disney regarded all of the Disney Afternoon shows with a similar level of apprehension. Even with the recognizable characters the other shows have, I don't think Disney was ever quite sure about the idea of marketing them to the general public. There seems to be a belief in the entertainment industry that kids' shows do not age well and today's kids aren't interested in older shows. I don't know how true that is, but given the limited advertising Disney did do for the other DA shows, touting the show's continuing fandoms, I think they were hoping for the people who watched the shows at kids to be the main market for the DVDs.

I really don't believe that anyone at Disney is oblivious to the idea that you have to spend money to make money. But there's a misconception that big corporations have all of this money flying around up for grabs and, from my limited experience with big(ish) corporations, that's really not the case. Sure the company overall can do OK if some parts of it fail as long as more parts are successful. But if Disney television is doing really well, that money isn't going to just fly over to prop up the troubled Disney parks. There is going to be a set budget for DVD releases and it's up to the Disney employees who work in that part of the company to figure out how best to spend it. Do they realize that they will sell more DVDs of the Disney Afternoon shows if they spend some money on advertising? Sure. But they also realize that if they take that same money and spend it on advertising for the new "Suite Life of Zach and Cody" DVD, they will get an exponentially bigger return on their investment. Again, if "Gargoyles" had been advertised, the sales goals would have gone up to reflect the money spent on advertising and the hoped-for effect of that advertising. It's not that DIsney didn't know that advertising the DVDs would cause them to sell better; they just didn't think the increase in sales would be enough to justify the money spent, especially when it could be used elsewhere to bring in a much greater profit.

Demonskrye - [<---"Toy Story" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

Re: Wingless & Demonskrye . . . It takes a LOT of money for a network to put up even a fifteen-second ad, for anything. You've probably heard of the chatter people generate when the "new Superbowl ads" premiere during halftime or whenever. Additionally, much planning is involved with advertising. It's not simply a "buy my product!", flash said product on the screen, and post a telephone number; no one would buy the product that way.
Guardian - [Guardian105 at gmail dot com]

Demonskrye - Yes, I understand Gargoyles was a unique situation and it was us and Greg that really pushed for it to be released. Disney deciding not to advertise it-fine. But what about all the other Disney afternoon releases? We had nothing to do with those. It makes absolutely no sense to release a product and not advertise it. They own TV networks for crying out loud-how much would it cost them to throw up a 15 second ad? Yes I'm beating a dead horse. But it's the old story that you have to spend money to make money. Disney should have learned that lesson long ago. I think we all do our part-and then some.

One same subject, I'd love for the TV property they control up here-Family Channel to start airing some of the old shows again. I don't care if it's at 2 or 3am in the bloody morning. enough of Cory in the house, Hannah Montana, Lizzie McGuire, Phil Of the Future and the other crap they air at that time of day. What kids are up watching that kinda thing at that hour?


Re: DK2 . . . Regarding BOOM! Studios, the contracts Disney has with them currently will go until they expire. After that, it's really anyone's guess. We'll just have to wait and see. BOOM probably didn't do/hasn't done a Gargoyles book because likely, when BOOM was optioning the Pixar titles, SLG still had Gargoyles. Before Monday I had hope that BOOM might actually pick up Gargoyles since their Pixar titles were doing so well. (I visited their panel at the 2009 Los Angeltes Times Festival of Books at UCLA) But now that Disney has Marvel, again, we can only wait and see. SLG didn't announce more Gargoyles comics because at ComicCon 2008 (I do believe) it was announced that Disney had raised the licensing fee to a price-point SLG could not reach.

Re: Demonskrye . . . Isn't another of the 'reasons' why sales weren't all that great because YouTube has most if not all of the episodes available?
Greg discussed this, though, in Writers' panel at the last Gathering. The quality of those videos is so poor, he wouldn't bother alerting YouTube to copyright infringement and hope that those people watching these episodes would get the DVDs to see better quality and the special features.

Guardian - [Guardian105 at gmail dot com]
Still need your TPBs? E-mail me, and I might be able to get them for you!

Wingless> While I do understand and sympathize with your frustration about Disney not advertising the Disney Afternoon DVDs, well, let me put it this way....

::Demon points out the comment room window to a gravestone marked "Here lies a dead horse. Please do not beat."::

The only reason I'm continuing to discuss this matter is that I think we've had some new additions to the comment room since the last time it came up and i want to make sure everyone is clear on the situation then and now.

My understanding is that Greg was told that the "Gargoyles" DVDs could be released (or at least that Season One could be released), but there would be little to no advertising budget. I've seen Greg say that there was absolutely no advertising budget, but I do remember seeing ads for the DVDs in a couple of comics, so I don't know if it was literally $0. And Greg basically told Buena Vista Home Entertainment that this was OK because "Gargoyles" had a network of fans who would both buy the DVD themselves and also advertise it through word of mouth. It wasn't that there was a a choice between releasing the DVD with a high profile advertising campaign and no advertising campaign. It was a choice between releasing the DVD with a minimal advertising campaign and no DVD, period.

Because Disney wasn't particularly sure how "Gargoyles" or any of the other Disney Afternoon shows were going to sell on DVD, they made the release of future DVDs in the series contingent upon the first volumes selling a certain number of copies. Before anyone asks we DO NOT KNOW what that number is, nor are we ever likely to find out, nor does it really matter at this point. The first volume of "Gargoyles" sold well enough to prompt the release of a second one. Disney continued their same strategy of only planning the release of a new volume if the current one met its target. Since Disney now had the sales figures from the first volume of "Gargoyles," their targets for the next one were probably based on those numbers. But rather than meeting or exceeding expectations, the first half of season two sold less than the first season had and Disney put the third volume on indefinite hold.

Now I don't believe that Disney marketing is full f profoundly stupid people. I believe they're all well aware that the DVD could have sold more copies if they had done more - or any - advertising. And I sincerely doubt that the sales goals for "Gargoyles" were the same as those for the latest Jonas brothers flick, or anywhere near it. If the advertising budget had been higher, the sales target would have been higher as well to cover the money spent on advertising and show a return as well. With the first DVD, the sales were at least good enough to convince Disney that "Gargoyles" still had an audience that would buy more product if it became available. The release of the second convinced them of just the opposite.

Knowing Disney original sales target now would probably not help us. Part one of season two has been out for almost four years now. If it hasn't already inched its way past that goal, Disney isn't certainly not going to decide to release the rest of season two if it reaches it now, any more than a movie that met its box office predictions after being on DVD for four years would suddenly get a sequel. Disney needs to be convinced - again - that there is a real market for "Gargoyles" and that it can be a money making property for them again. Which means sales are going to have to go up substantially.

Again, I can understand the frustration with this setup and if you feel like its pointless to try to promote the DVD yourself because Disney wouldn't put their advertising might behind it, that's fine. But there is really nothing more to be gained from complaining about the choices Disney made. We may not agree with them, but I think it's pretty clear why they happened and there's no way to turn back time and change the past.

Demonskrye - [<---"Toy Story" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

I got all the packages mailed today! Turns out the post office downtown (not the one closest to me) opens earlier than I thought, so my dad took me straight from work.

I got delivery conformation on all of them, so e-mails with tracking numbers will follow sometime tonight (as I have to go e-mail digging to find which zip code belongs to whom to give the right numbers).

I also will have more sticker sets available soon, I also mailed out some from a trade I have in progress. More on that when I actually finish them off.

Andrea - [SailorV77 at yahoo dot com]

My trades arrived overseas last Friday (CB2) and this Monday (BG), and I was rather surprised. I had both of them preordered via Amazon where they weren't in yet. The internet comic dealer I had gotten the regular issues from apparently took the trades to be part of the abos going for Gargoyles and Bad Guys. So I canceled the Amazon preorders on Friday and took my chances with Bad Guys. The icing on the cake ... the trades were a bit cheaper via the comic dealer than what Amazon was asking.

Finally ordered Bad Guys. It so hurts when shipping for one book is bloody well 12 bucks and it still takes over 3 weeks to get here(and that's from SLG too). So much for free trade.

The trades are all the same size.
Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

I've not posted in a long time on this site. I guess with the SLG Gargoyles comics not in publication anymore I didn't have much to say. But I did recieve my Bad Guys trade and was disapointed that it seemed smaller than the CB V1 trade. Is it me or is this really smaller (Its too hard for me to take out my read books)? Wasn't CB V1 6x9 in size? I'm also a little fustrated about the existance of CB V2. Up here in Canada, Chapters.ca and Amazon.ca keep saying it ain't available yet. It seems to clearly be released but other readers seem to be going through the same thing I am. Whats going on with this?
I've looked at earlier posts and believe what Dan Vado says about licencees not wanting to licence from Disney for comics anymore (well they pretty much can make their own comics). Why would SLG pay money into Marvel technically? But I'd like to think that a new Gargoyles comic could come out of this. I also thought whats the point of Boom Studios Disney stuff? I also don't understand why Boom didn't do a Gargoyles book. Will the Boom deal die or will Disney wait for this contract to end? I was so hoping that SLG would announce a new Gargoyles graphic novel or somthing new at San Diego Comicon, but maybe now we know why. Maybe the Disney/Marvel thing was in the works already? But whatever, I hope for new Gargoyles comics from this deal and that Greg is still able to tell us the stories he still has to tell. One 12 part story and a 6 part mini series ain't enough. I just hate that we could've had more comics but the book had such a horrible release shedule. Can't wait to finish Bad Guys, but just hoping I do get CB V2.


Sincere and cordial congratulations to Siryn on her new arrival. :)
Desert Coyote - [<- ON SALE NOW!]
The Gargfic writer formerly known as Coyote the Bando

Becky - Well, hypothetically at least, a daughter would look similar to Angela, but with much darker skin like Thailog. A son would look similar to Goliath but with Demona's pale blue skin. There are variations to that too. Broadway is Hudson's son but they don't look extremely similar. So it's really up to your imagination because, as Greg said, it's unlikely we'll ever see it.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

BECKY> They didn't. Demona wasn't fertile at the time. She won't be until 2008, but I doubt she'll be mating with anyone then.
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]

i have a question! wat if thaliog and demona had a baby? wat would it look like? i want to hear ur guys opinions
Becky - [beckybug1991 at aol dot com]
Becky <3

Demonskrye> Ok, GOOD. So that's why I don't have it. IF it was available, I WOULD have it. But it puzzled me why I wouldn't have it... Cuz I love the show a bit less than Gargs...
battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

UncleDeadly . . . heh heh, I doubt Sevarius is the type to have an office with a display of degrees from various institutions . . . d:

Siryn's baby: Congratulations!! Like Greg mentioned during the closing ceremonies at the Gathering, the fans are so incredible . . . they make babies!!

"The suspense is terrible . . . I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka

Battle Beast> Just so I'm sure we're all on the same page, there isn't a second volume of "Gummi Bears" yet. There is sufficient material for one, since volume one is only the first three of six total seasons. (Six very short seasons. Twenty episodes or less. Three of them are only eight episodes.) But so far, there's only the one DVD set.

Thailog's Quest> My guess would be that Demona started putting her Hunter's Moon plan together while she and Thailog were still together and told him about it. So he was aware of whichever component of the plan he's now searching for. Not that we know for certain that's what he's after, but it certainly seems that way. I agree that Thailog would not have been keen on Demona's "eradicate all of humanity" schemes and it would have been quite interesting to see whether he would have taken it upon himself to foil her plans had it come to that and how he would have done it. But since they're no longer together, he probably doesn't have any more advance warning about what Demona may be up to than the Manhattan Clan does. I suspect that Thailog at least feigned sympathy for Demona's genocidal tendencies in order to keep her around long enough to exploit her.

Demonskrye - [<---"Toy Story" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

DOES ANYONE have the sales figures for the Gargoyles DVD's of Season 1 and Season 2, Volume 1? Does anyone know if or when Disney will release Gargoyles Season 2, Volume 2 on DVD?
Jonny Modlin - [jmodlin210 at gmail dot com]

Todd - And more than just that - how could he create more Gargoyles to serve him without minions like Sevarius to make them! I doubt there are many Gargoyles with PHD's in genetics.

I wondered what Thailog was looking for as well, and whether it might have been the Praying Gargoyle's remains. It certainly suggests that he must have known or suspected something about Demona's "Hunter's Moon" scheme.

(Which I doubt Thailog would have approved of. Not that he'd be at all worried about all the humans dying for their own sakes - I can't imagine Thailog feeling a drop of compassion for them - but once all the humans are gone, all the money that Thailog's amassed through his schemes will be worthless, and he wouldn't want that.)

Todd Jensen

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

My preordered copy of Clan-Building vol. 2 just shipped from Amazon. Hopefully all the bookstores will be in stock soon.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Passing this along:

A big Congrats to Siryn -- she had her baby! Remy Alexander Leigh, 7 pounds 3 ounces. 20 inches, born on Sept 1st a bit after 7pm.

Please send along your well-wishes!!


UncleDeadly> Hmmm, that's interesting. I wonder how, if they are searching for the Atlantean crystal or the praying gargoyle, how did they find out about it? Maybe they came across some of Demona's files at Nightstone headquarters.
Brigadoon Traveller

I just posted my first youtube video of the first 10 minutes of this years Radio play.I am still having trouble uploading them so i dont know when I will be able to get the other ones uploaded.
Aaron AKA Halloweenking - [halloweenking28 at yahoo dot com]

Looks like Greg just posted the first part of last year's Radio play. So Thailog and Brentwood were digging in St Damien's Cathedral, according to the narration? Wonder if they were after the same thing Demona was a week earlier!

I knew about the Disney Afternoon DVDs because I follow tvshowsondvd.com AND ultimatedisney.com

I currently own VOL 1 of Ducktales, Darkwing Duck and Talespin, and Vol 1 and 2 of Chip and Dale. I did NOT know there was a vol 2 of Gummie Bears!

I am going to send my letter after all... I think it will help!!!

DOES ANYONE know how many people came to the Gathering this year?

DOES ANYONE have the sales figures for the Gargoyles trades and comics from SLG?

battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

Phil >> Awesome find!! Aside from Gargoyles, TaleSpin was my favorite of all the Disney Afternoon shows!!
The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>T.T)> I missed the final Gathering... School can be so cruel... This could be my one major regret of 2009...

Hey gang, long time no see. I just found some neat articles with more detailed info on the Disney/Marvel deal and thought you all might be interested.


I got nothing.

Guardian - I'll send you an e-mail. Basically, I live in Buffalo, there's two B&N's near me (Buffalo State College bookstore and a regular B&N). If it's possible, I'd love all the help I can get with this, *especially* where Barnes & Noble is concerned.
Desert Coyote - [<- ON SALE NOW]
The Gargfic writer formerly known as Coyote the Bando

Re: Desert Coyote's new book . . . Do you live in the Los Angeles area at all? I work with the Barnes & Noble company (just a generic bookseller, mind you), and would love to work something out where you come to sign at my store. Or, if I possibly can in my position, get the ball rolling so that you have a signing wherever it is you hail from.
Guardian - [Guardian105 at gmail dot com]

Gore-I knew about Talespin on DVD-basically because I follow DVD releases on tvshowsondvd.com. Been an animation fan all my life-so that's how I found out. The site was initially an independent site-they're now owned by TV Guide. It's also where I heard about the Disney buying Marvel this week.

As for how to better promote the DVDs that's really tough when the company that owns them won't advertise them at all themselves. I fail to understand the logic in that. Disney heavily advertises everything else they put out, how much it cost for a few ads to promote all their TV DVDs all at once? Focus on one and then say "also avvailable" bla bla bla.


Gorebash> Back in the days when AOL was still a fun community with a really good animation message board, writers and other crew members from animated TV shows roamed the boards and talked to fans without fear. I actually got a hint from Michael Reaves about Angela's then-forthcoming appearance when I mentioned that my one regret about the show was that the only female gargoyle was an antagonist. Anyways, there was also some discussion going on about "TaleSpin" (though I don't remember with who) including a proposed "TaleSpin" movie that never happened, probably due in part to "DuckTales: Treasure of the Lost Lamp" not being a big success. Anyways, I heard later on that if the movie had been made, it would have revealed that....

Never-Produced Movie Spoilers?: [SPOILER] ...Don Karnage was Kit's father. I guess characters in the "TalesSpin" world get their coloration from the same gender parent and their species from the opposite sex one? Anyway, the movie would have dealt with this fact and eventually had Karnage saving Kit's life at the cost of his own. I don't know much more than that and it was quite a while ago, so my memory could be a little off. But it did lead me to come up with some ideas about Kit's backstory, who his mother was, and how Kit came to join the Sky Pirates without ever - in my mind anyways - knowing that he was their leader's son. [/SPOILER]

I was aware that the TaleSpin DVDs came out, as well as many of the other Disney Afternoon DVDs. Though "Gargoyles" remains my top priority, I would really like to see the rest of "Gummi Bears" come out on DVD as well.

Demonskrye - [<---"Toy Story" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

Golly, it's been years since I've watched an episode. (That would be fun to do - sit down with a buncha fans and watch episodes together & reminisce.) (Come to think of it... isn't that what "commentaries" on DVD's are for? Why doesn't Disney do that??.... Oh, wait, now I remember why. They're Disney.)


It's like being able to see the Gargoyles fandom from the outside looking in. In case you haven't guessed, I really REALLY am enjoying that site.


I love reading through these Jymn Magon questions. It's clear there is a huge amount of background material that was developed. There IS (or was) a Mr. Cunningham. There is a story there. He won't tell. There IS a story about Kit's parents. He won't tell. There IS a history between Baloo and Wildcat (he's not telling).

There are a LOT of similarities with TaleSpin and Gargoyles.

There are two DVD volumes of episodes out there, but the third and final volume has yet to be released with no idea if/when that'll happen (sound familiar?)

Now let me throw this out to you guys.

Did you know TailSpin was out on DVD? If so, how did you find out about it? If not, why do you think you didn't know about it?

Reflect on that and see if you can figure out what we could do to promote the Gargoyles DVDs and comics -- to spread the word.


Phil: Awesome find! I love how much similarity there is between that and Ask Greg. Especially this one:

Multiple questions. Several responses from Jymn simply stating "not telling". Who or what does that remind you of? Hah!


For fans of other Disney Afternoon shows, I just stumbled across this website this morning: http://www.animationsource.org/talespin/en/custom_questions/&id_film=9&nump=1338

It's kinda like "Ask Greg", but with Jymn Magon, who worked on Tale Spin, Gummi Bears, etc.

Phil - [p1anderson at go dot com]

Ugh, I wrote one rambling paragraph. So I'll just say: yeah, I should've read more carefully.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Aaron AKA Halloweenking: "I even sold the pin I had on my con badge."

That was me; thanks for that. Let me know if you make Eye of Odin pins to go with the Gate pins at some point (perhaps in both show and game versions). :D

Jade Griffin: I wouldn't mind being on the list either. Use this post's addy.

Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

Demonskyre, Matt T. - This is the quote from the article:

In the best case scenario for The Spectacular Spider-Man, not only could the show continue with Marvel producing, but some of the restrictions Weisman, fellow Supervising Producer Victor Cook and their team have had to work with could be lifted – including the fact that up until now, they could not use any non-Spider-Man characters on the series. Pondering that fact, Weisman said, "I'd be very excited at the prospect of adding Kingpin to our cast. And as I've mentioned before, I'd love to do the occasional crossover, starting with the Human Torch. But the bigger concern is whether or not we get new episodes, not who guest stars in them."

So I guess it is all based on a hypothetical. Maybe that's why Greg never likes to answer those questions. But I do know that in the countless TSS-M interviews Greg has given, he always says that Kingpin was his first choice for the Big Man, but he can't use him due to Fox owning the Daredevil property. In the multiple he's mentioned Human Torch as his first crossover choice, he never gives the same caveat. Of course, he's already tried to write Kingpin into a story and hasn't gotten to that point yet with Human Torch. But Greg has always seemed very aware of what characters he can and can't use, so I'm surprised if all this time Human Torch was off-limits.

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Battle Beast> I don't see the harm in sending Disney a letter about releasing the rest of season two on DVD. I'd just hold off on asking them about anything comic related, as we don't know yet who might be planning to do what, so it would be tough to know what to ask for.

Lnadon> I think Matt is right; there are probably still some existing deals out there that would prevent Greg from having access to the whole Marvel universe should SS-M get a third season. In addition to what Matt mentioned, there's the "Wolverine and the X-Men" show and the CG animated "Iron Man" running on Nickelodeon's NickToons, which would probably tie up any characters in those particular fictions. I don't think anyone's laid claim to the Whizzer though.

Demonskrye - [<---"Toy Story" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

Until I get my copy of "Bad Guys" and read it (and I'll announce that here when it happens), could everyone who's posting comments and questions about the last third of the book in the "Ask Greg" queue at least mark them with "Spoilers" warnings, please? I've already inadvertently caught a couple of spoilers while approving questions in the queue, and don't want to encounter any more.

DESERT COYOTE - I'm not certain as yet that self-publishing is the way to go, though with each rejection that I receive, it seems more tempting. A friend of mine's already read the book, though, and says that while he thinks it's good, it's hard to define its exact genre (beyond "children's fantasy").

Todd Jensen

Jade > Could I get on that mailing list, too?
Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Landon i don't think he can use the Human Tourch because i belive that Fox still has the rites to the Fantastic Four, X-Men, Daredevil, and the Silver Surfer. at least thats what it said in my news paper
Matt T. - [mattstewto at yahoo dot com]

رومنسى بس منسى
kemoo_uotr - [kemoo_uotr at yahoo dot com]
امير الحب

Gorebash> Did you want to get on the GargCon mailing list? I don't think I got you. If not, my mistake, but just checking:) You were there at the panel. I just don't see your email anywhere and din't wanna mis you. jade_griffin at hotmail dot com
Jade Griffin - [jade_griffin at hotmail dot com]
"Food, food, FOOD!!" - Jade Griffin, on many occasions

Here's the latest lowdown for folks interested in Spectacular Spider-Man: http://tv.ign.com/articles/102/1020699p1.html

Disney owns TSS-M outright. Greg now gets to play with non-Spidey characters (he mentions Kingpin and Human Torch) *if* there's a 3rd season.

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Aaron - Thanks for the magnet! I bought one on the last day and it looks awesome on my fridge.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

:D Just as a reminder... If ANYBODY is missing cards from either the first or second series of Gargoyles trading cards, please feel free to send me an email with the numbers you're missing. I'm happy to help people complete their sets if I can. :)

Aaron AKA Halloweenking: I LOVE those pins! Is there any chance you'll make more? I think I might like to get an extra... **Winkwink**

Kythera of Anevern - [kythera (at) gmail (dot) com]
"Live for glory, strength and fury; play your part in the greater scheme of life and nature"

Aaron: It took FOREVER to catch you (it seemed like I always went to the Dealer's Room as you JUST left), but it was awesome to chat to the guy that made those mean-cool pins . . . and I'm still giddy about the 2-piece necklace I won at the Silent Auction d:

Disney/Marvel -- I'm not touching this with a ten-foot stick . . . what will be, will be. No sense worrying about it . . .

The suspense is terrible . . . I hope it lasts -- Willy Wonka

So I went through and packaged most of the stuff for mailing today, and now I'm scanning my own crap to my PC.

What do I find in my scanner? A picture of my kitty, which has probably been sitting in there for the past year and a half. Not only that, I get to card #3 in my set, and what do I find below it? A #40, the elusive card I thought I only had 1 of. I re-checked my set to just see if it just migrated to a wrong spot. Nope, my copy is there! Must have though it was a #4, which is missing from my set (but which I have spares of). So yeah, sorry about that guys. At least Kit is willing to help complete the sets since she had those extras anyway :P

But either my scanner sucks or I'm just not finding the right settings yet, cause the quality isn't so perfect.

Andrea - [SailorV77 at yahoo dot com]

Thanks for posting the link to the videos, Gore. Man, I hope someone is able to get up the full Radio Play at some point. These clips are torture; not enough to see!

Hello I would like to thank everybody that bought the phoenix gate items I made. They were the first pieces of art that I ever sold. I even sold the pin I had on my con badge. I am still waiting for Amazon to send me CB2 I just got Bad Guys yesterday.
Aaron AKA Halloweenking - [halloweenking28 at yahoo dot com]

Until it's stated that future Gargoyles stories is officially dead, I won't even bother thinking about all of that.
Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1 at sbcglobal dot net]

Wow. it's all so interesting. Makes me wonder if I should send a letter or not.
battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

Todd: Yeah, this one went the rounds looking for agents and publishers too. After I exhausted all of the fantasy agents and gotten nothing but rejections and at least one incredibly rude response, I decided to take it this way. I'm getting a lot of support in the writing community, both locally and online, of my decision. Maybe you should consider it? It especially helps if your book defies definition in a single genre, like mine does.
Desert Coyote - [<- NOW ON SALE!!]
The writer formerly known as Coyote the Bando

hmm, none of this Marvel/Disney stuff really matters or makes sense to me. As long as we (hopefully) get more gargoyles material with Greg at the helm, I'll be happy.

I received my Bad guys trade today, but not CB2 yet *sigh*. I'm wondering if Amazon has them in stock. They say they do. I actually used to order from SLG, but I had a lot of trouble with them too at one point. I ended up paying for multiple copies of a book I didn't want. Well, I'll try ordering from them again next time, if there is a next time.


DESERT COYOTE - Congratulations on getting your novel published. I'm still trying to get an agent or a publisher interested in mine.

Even if we don't get any further "Gargoyles" stories thanks to the sales of the trade paperbacks not being good enough or Disney buying Marvel, at least we got a few new ones, and we had a great, hopeful ending for #12 that could be viewed as an open ending for the series (much like that in "Re-Awakening" and "Hunter's Moon"). Let's remember that.

Todd Jensen

Much to my delight, I have approved my novel for publication. It is now available for purchase through my e-store (follow my link below)!
For those who want to peruse before you buy, a preview is available at http://tinyurl.com/AGPreview. Otherwise, here's the blurb.


Through the 20th Century, a team of four has been assembled for a Black Ops team unlike any other in history.

The Guardsman : ageless paladin knight.
Cyrus Salem: immortal shrinking wizard.
Kitty Lazarus: woman warrior in a cat's body.
Ariel Vibria: modern dragon with a tortured soul.

Separately and together, these agents will face down an immense evil, with the fate of the world itself possibly in the balance, rising above their differences and individual traumas together to face Sheol, a demonic matriarch hiding within one of the holiest sites in Europe.

Is being the Guardsman worth the sacrifice of childhood Ken Sharpe made to be the paladin?
Will Cyrus continue to shrink throughout history?
What purpose does the Hindu god Durga have for Kitty?
What will happen if the secretive government project that produced Ariel comes to search for their missing experiment?

Do they stand a chance in hell against Sheol?

Find out in the pages of "The Advance Guard," on sale now

Special offer for Gargoyles message board posters … use discount code Q3JQG8JB for 20% off the cover price.

Desert Coyote - [<- NOW ON SALE!]
The writer formerly known as Coyote the Bando

Thank you for clarifying Demonskrye. I'll have to see what my friends think of all this at Galaxy of Comics.
Guardian - [Guardian105 at gmail dot com]

There's apparently a promo card for "Last Tengu in Paris" hosted by Nicholle Owens on y2hecate.com (careful, parts are NSFW), but my browsers says that it can't display the file since the file contains errors.
Does somebody know another source for the promo card? (No, flying to the USA and visiting a likely convention is not an option.)


Those of you looking for more videos from the con should check out this user on YouTube:

Lots of videos, including a lot (if not all) of the radio play.


Ding: Those auction prices were far from the final price they went for. I filmed this early into the con. The final prices were a bit higher. Anything that either had 0 bids or over 6 bids went to the live auction (which I ran with IRC Goliath) and not a single thing we sold at that live auction went for less than $4 (the majority of that stuff went for over $10 each).

And yeah, I wanted to bid on everything there, but I had no idea how I could get so much stuff home. So I bid on little things. Which I was then outbidded on. In particular the little puzzle cube which THOM MOTHERF'ER ADCOX outbid me on, the little thief.


If you're looking to buy the comics or tell others where to get them I would recommend going directly through SLG. I have no idea if ordering from one place over the other will do any more good to help persuade SLG to license for another comic or not, but if any one were to have a bigger impact I'd assume ordering directly through SLG would be it. Your order won't be just a line item in a sales report, but an envelope, a book, and a person having to pack it and ship it out. It might be a more visible purchase. If that means anything.

Guardian> It's in the realm of possibility and certainly Marvel and DC are always looking to revamp and refresh their universes and the characters in them. And sometimes a big name creator will be given a lot of leeway to play around with those characters over a long period of time. But mainstream comics has its screwy corporate culture as well and I've seen creators and their projects get steamrollered by some editorial directive or massive crossover at least as often as I've seen creators be allowed to really nurture a story long term. As Greg just said in his latest response, at this point we're still fighting to even register as a blip on the radar, so it's going to take some strong sales on the trade for Marvel or any other company to take a second or first look at "Gargoyles" and even start thinking about giving it another shot.

Greg's Response> I think the only info I had heard previously about the development of the Gargoyles Universe at Disney was the response that Landon dug up, I found that "we" pretty ambiguous, so it's very interesting to learn that there was some support for the idea of the spinoffs and developing a Gargoyles universe at higher levels in the company, brought on by Eisner wanting his own superhero universe. I don't know if the whole thing would have worked out even if all the events Greg mentions hadn't taken place. By Greg's own admission, "Gargoyles" had solid ratings, but never really set the world on fire. I guess we'll never know.

And now here comes the 2008 Radio Play Script. Should make for interesting supplemental reading for those who have CB2 in hand but didn't attend the 2008 Gathering, such as yours truly.

Demonskrye - [<---"Toy Story" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

Guardian - SLG is your best bet--they're the only folks, besides a really good comic shop, that has all three trades in stock: http://www.slgcomic.com/search.asp?keyword=weisman+volume&search.x=0&search.y=0&search=GO Amazon will be a good alternative once they get Clan-Bulding vol. 2 in stock.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Re: Greg's Latest Response . . . Is there a particular venue from which people should buy their trades? I've offered to buy the trades from both the bookstore where I work and the comic store I frequent, depending upon which is faster.
Guardian - [Guardian105 at gmail dot com]

Re: Demonskrye: Actually, the worlds of DC and Marvel -- at least from my experience, which I will admit is not much -- seems to be a bit more free than the business model Disney Corp. seems to employ. Now, this is just opinion, but if the current Green Lantern: Blackest Night run were in the Disney Corp's hand, I don't think we ever would have seen it. Remember, Geoff Johns started everything way back when he released Rebirth, which was published back in 2004. In terms of the comics industry, I think there's a lot more freedom to say exactly what you said: "Well, they had a lot of issues with the publishing schedule and there wasn't a lot of marketing so maybe we can do better." They just might. Of course, whether or not they do is another story.

Re: Anthony Tini: Since when do comic book retailers compete with the likes of Marvel? Do you mean comic book <i>publishers</i>?

Guardian - [Guardian105 at gmail dot com]

Gore-50 cents!!!! that hurts even more. So much stuff there I would have liked to have added to the ol' collection. Oh well. *cries over spilled milk*

That is a good point and one I hadn't really given enough thought to. In the short term, it may not be such a big deal, since while the licensing fees a company creating Disney comics might pay would go to Disney, I don't know if that money would ever really end up in Marvel coffers any more than the money from a person buying the license to make Bugs Bunny comics would go to DC. Long term however, if I'm understanding right, Disney owns the material produced under the licensed and while previously they might not have been all that inclined to republish it themselves, they can now just hand it off to Marvel to reprint as they see fit. Though SLG and Marvel may not compete as much for readers since they tend to target different audience, they do compete for shelf space and I can see how it would be frustrating to see the titles you are actively publishing getting squeezed out by Marvel comics that you actually produced to begin with.

As usual, I think it's going to come down to money and whether any of the other comics publishers think the money they can make and the attention they can gain by licensing properties from Disney is worth not owning the material long term and potentially seeing it being used to line Marvel's pockets, assuming Disney is going to continue licensing out its properties for comics.

Demonskrye - [<---"Toy Story" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

Anthony Tini> Greg Weisman writing those stories for them. So who knows if a) Greg still has any interest in working for Disney/Marvel OR b) Disney/Marvel has any interest in working with Greg.

I think the final call is Marvel/Disney's decision. Cause unless there's reason to believe otherwise, Greg does want to do more Gargoyles (which is a Disney property) and continue with The Spectacular Spider-Man (which is Marvel's).

Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
Algernon's comment about Norman Osborn: One of the neat things about Dark Reign is that it gives Osborn the chance to expand his horizons beyond tormenting a twenty nine year old who still lives with his mom.

Vado makes a valid point. He and other small comic book retailers are not going to want to license Disney properties because that money is feeding their competitor -- Marvel. But the big question remains -- What is Disney planning on doing with the Marvel franchise? Depending on the answer could and probably will influence Vado's decisions.

One thing that Disney can do is decide to market a new Gargoyles comic, but they need (and we need) Greg Weisman writing those stories for them. So who knows if a) Greg still has any interest in working for Disney/Marvel OR b) Disney/Marvel has any interest in working with Greg.

In the end, Vado may just bow out to save money and save face. It's a shame since he really supported Greg and his work.

Anthony Tini

Demonskrye - I agree that by all indications SLG can still license Gargoyles and that Vado's interpretation was doom and gloom. But my reason for posting that was this quote: "all Disney comic book licensees now get to feel dumb knowing that the money they are giving Disney is now also going to their biggest competitor in the field."

Disney wasn't a competitor to SLG before. Sure they had a few Donald Duck comics and the like, but they weren't Marvel. I hate to be the pessimist (again) but I want the facts straight: Vado's interpretation of the business climate post-merger is very important. This was a game-changer for everyone but it hopefully hasn't affected Vado's plans with Gargoyles.

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

someone ought to fix the whole links inside spoilers being visible.



Landon> I honestly don't see any reason why Vado couldn't still go to Disney with his proposal to create new "Gargoyles" graphic novels. The worst they could say is "No" or "Sorry, we have our own comics publisher now," which amounts to the same thing. Unless Vado actually had to sink some significant money into the pitch that would make it too risky to undertake when the answer could very well be "no," then I do not see the harm in at least asking.

I think Vado's predictions for Disney's intentions with Marvel are a little gloom and doom. The most direct from the source comments I've heard about this deal are from Marvel editor in chief Joe Quesada who was the one who likened the Disney.Marvel relationship to the Disney/Pixar one, at least so far as the comics go. Do I think that Disney's main interest is in Marvel's stable of characters and using them in media other than comics? Absolutely. But I think it's a bit of a leap to suggest that Disney is going to stop Marvel from publishing comics or even cut the Marvel titles down to a bare bones minimum. I could see some titles getting cut in the interests of increasing profits and Marvel's lineup could probably stand to be trimmed down. But my guess is that Disney will regard Marvel's comic kind of like the Disney Treasures DVD sets. They may not make tons of money on them, but so long as they're reasonably profitable, they're worth doing to keep an important segment of the target audience happy. (Before someone says it, Disney would not release the remainder of "Gargoyles" on DVD or do anything else with the property just to keep us happy because Disney doesn't see as a segment that needs to be catered to. Not yet anyway.) Plus the comics can provide useful source material that can be translated into other media which may be more profitable than the original comic.

If I'm understanding Vado right, Disney owning Marvel might mean that they may be slightly more inclined to take advantage of the already existing terms of their licensing deals and publish the SLG material on their own. But since Vado says this is a pretty standard contract provision, I don't know that it would really affect Vadi;s decision to pitch the new graphic novels or not.

Demonskrye - [<---"Toy Story" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

Greg and Landon > Ah. Thanks for clearing that up.

Rebel -

Issue 12 spoilers:

[SPOILER] Greg has chimed in in a small way: http://gargoyles.dracandros.com/w/index.php?title=Egwardo&diff=19758&oldid=19685

In Egwardo's article Greg changed "Katana got visibly defensive" to "Katana was perhaps hesitant". Like many things, I imagine Greg wants to leave it up to our interpretation. [/SPOILER]

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

REBEL> Robby Bevard suggested I add this, as he mentioned that the script mentioned a certain level of defensiveness.
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]

Just saw something on the gargwiki on Katana's page that I'm not too sure about.

minor spoilers
(regarding Katana's feelings towards her egg.)
"She became somewhat defensive when Angela asked to hold it."

I'm not sure I'm seeing this. Indeed there is a panel where Angela is asking to hold it, but I don't necessarily see any defensiveness on Katana's part. Yes, her eyes are closed, and yes, she's still holding the egg somewhat close to herself, but that doesn't necessarily mean defensiveness. That could easily have just been the whims of the artist. Or alternatively, perhaps she's holding it close to herself because Angela just asked, and she hasn't yet had time to hand it to her properly.

Do you guys interpret this as defensiveness?

Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if she WAS defensive about the egg, but I just don't want to see readers putting interpretations into the gargwiki which aren't conclusively supported by the material or by something Greg W has said. [/SPOILER]


Yeesh, this is not a good sign: http://comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=22765

Vado continued, "Big loser here are Disney licensees who created original content for their books and the creators who created that content... While I am certain that the licensing deals which are in place will continue to their conclusion I have to wonder how some of the people who have jumped into the Disney Comics business will feel about creating new content for the company knowing that it all could become property of Disney/Marvel Comics at some point. Likewise, all Disney comic book licensees now get to feel dumb knowing that the money they are giving Disney is now also going to their biggest competitor in the field. As I said above, though, publishing is not a big part of the core Disney business so it is possible that even more licensing opportunities might open up."

Hopefully he's just reeling and hasn't changed his goals with Gargoyles.

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Wingless: That's not 50 dollars. That's 50 cents. The CENT and DOLLAR symbols look very similar and the low quality cam doesn't make things any easier. But I assure you those are all CENTS.

A couple of those items did go over $50, but the vast majority were had for under $5.


Gorebash> I think we should be careful before bringing up the "free money" idea again, as I think it's a bit of a misconception. As we've discussed in the past, there is still some work and expense on Disney's part since they have to have someone to look over the comic, make sure it conforms to whatever standard Disney has set for it, and approve it. Now certainly that person would probably still be employed whether or not SLG is publishing "
Gargoyles" or any other Disney comics because I'm sure he or she has other tasks. But as usual, it's a matter of cost vs. benefit. If Disney feels like the licensing fee they get from SLG is large enough to justify what they pay the person approving the comic for however many hours are spent on that task, then the deal continues. If, however, Disney feels like the time and money they spend on the "Gargoyles" comic isn't worth the licensing fee they're being paid for it, the fee goes up and/or the deal goes south. It's not like Disney is making a choice between getting some money and getting no money. The person who would have otherwise been approving the "Gargoyles" comic will now spend that time approving something like the Hannah Montana movie novelization (though I really don't know if the same people who approve comics also work with other print media), which will bring Disney a much bigger return on their investment,

Though I hate to sound like a broken record, I don't think this point can be stressed enough: god sales of the trades are our best shot at a future for "Gargoyles" right now. I haven't seen anyone suggesting it outright here, which is good, but I'm worried that some fans might look at the Disney/Marvel deal and get complacent, assuming that Disney will just have Marvel make a "Gargoyles" comic. Or maybe the assumption will be that there's no point in trying for a new SLG deal because Disney owns Marvel now and whether or not they intend to do anything with "Gargoyles," they won't want to give any licenses to comics publisher who are in competition with the one they now own. The only thing I've heard so far is that the Disney/Marvel relationship is going to be very much like the Disney/Pixar relationship at least in terms of the comics publishing end of it, meaning pretty hands-off. So far as I know, Pixar has not yet been forced to create CG Mickey Mouse or Winnie the Pooh cartoons, so I kind of doubt Marvel will be made to publish Disney comics if hat isn't something they feel will work. Beyond that, I don't know what's going to happen, but if the trades don't sell well, I can almost guarantee that what will happen with "Gargoyles" is nothing. As I've said before, many companies tend to see things in black and white, as either successes or failures. If the SLG trades don't sell well, it is highly unlikely that Marvel is going to look at this and say "Well, they had a lot of issues with the publishing schedule and there wasn't a lot of marketing so maybe we can do better." They're going to see a comic that didn't sell and isn't worth revisiting. So while it's fine to fantasize about the possibility of another publisher coming in to save the day if SLG can't get a new proposal to work, if it isn't clear that "Gargoyles" can make money, we'll have an even bigger and steeper uphill climb than before trying to convince anyone that "Gargoyles" is still alive and kicking and a potential source of income.

Demonskrye - [<---"Toy Story" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

well it looks like the trades are selling well on amazon uk site especially Bad guys


VickyUK - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]

ACk! there waa a bronx clock-and in the box too! Soo wish i could have been there-but looking at some of the prices, 50 bucks for a lunch box-*cries more*


A clip showing all the Gargoyles merchandise up for auction at the con this year with a bonus story about how Sarah didn't recognize Marina Sirtis when she walked up to the con registration table.


More info on the Disney/Marvel deal straight from Disney's PR people:

They specifically point out that Disney already has a bunch of Marvel content airing on Toon Disney and they want to do more. So maybe that's a good thing for Spectacular Spider-Man? Unless they decide to ignore the amazing job that Greg, Vic and their crew over at Sony did and try to have some in-house people recreate that success. Shadows of Goliath Chronicles? NO! No doom and gloom! Not yet!


Gorebash - "But I'm guessing Joe Quesada has a few other things on his plate at the moment."

Like dancing in the street: http://twitter.com/JoeQuesada/status/3666761390

Your point on 'free money' is well-taken though.

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]



Sony gave the TV rights to Spider-Man back to Marvel.


Landon: Drop a question into Ask Greg about it. I remember Greg talking about how Gargoyles was going to be the soil out of which a stable of characters would grow to create a sort of Disney Universe of characters.

Also, unless Disney has specific intentions to do a Gargoyles comic through Marvel (which I don't think they do) this deal probably wouldn't affect the relationship with SLG. As Greg has said in the past, Disney is really interested in making money, but enough money that it's worth there while to even bother (thus no Volume 2 DVD, thus the bump in license fee for Gargoyles). But if SLG puts up the money to license Gargoyles for another set of 6 comics (Greg's "Dream" Dark Ages story) they're going to do it because it's, essentially, free money.

About the only thing about this deal that might somehow make a difference is if someone in a powerful position over at Marvel wants to make a Gargoyles book they might be able to get the license more easily. But I'm guessing Joe Quesada has a few other things on his plate at the moment.


Hmmm, that came out more pessimistic than I intended. This is my point: don't dismiss SLG. Obviously it would be fantastic if Disney/Marvel produces a new Gargoyles series, but until that happens, SLG is still our best ally, IMHO.

Until then, Demonskrye has the right idea: the trade sales are important in any case.

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

OMG I just heard that Disney bought out Marvel. I wonder if that means anything or gargoyles?
PHIL - [Jiggerot at hotmail dot com]

Todd Jensen - I'm worried because they now own one of the big two comics publishers and may not like the idea of a "rival" publisher making money off their IP. So they don't negotiate with SLG. Then what? Disney doesn't think a Season 2, Volume 2 DVD release is worth the money and that's for something already fully produced. SLG on the other hand has created the first genuinely new Gargoyles product in 10 years.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

"NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- The Walt Disney Co. announced Monday that it has agreed to purchase comic book and action hero company Marvel Entertainment for about $4 billion.

The deal pairs a comic book publisher that just recently began to produce its own movies with one of the largest international media companies in the world.

"This is perfect from a strategic perspective," Disney Chief Executive Robert Iger told CNNMoney.com. "This treasure trove of over 5,000 characters offers Disney the ability to do what we do best.""

"...the Ability to do what we do best..." Geez, what could that be...

I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

LANDON> Disney is very aware of Gargoyles and the fandom. We're not under the radar.
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]

I wondered for a moment if "Disney buying Marvel" was just a wild rumor, but when Greg Weisman confirms it at "Ask Greg", I'm certain that it's happened.

LANDON - Why are you worried about Disney becoming aware of "Gargoyles" and its fandom? Because they might see our activities as trademark infringement?

Incidentally, I recently began thinking about a possible Gargoyles Tour of Scotland, for "Gargoyles" fans visiting the UK (or who live there). Here's a list of places that could be on it:

EDINBURGH: The capital of Scotland, Duncan's home in "City of Stone", and the current resting-place of the Stone of Destiny [SPOILER] or *a* stone, at least [/SPOILER].

LOCH NESS: Home of the Loch Ness Monster and of the Loch Ness clan. Could include a visit to Urquart Castle, the probably real-life original of the ruined castle over Sevarius's headquarters in "Monsters".

SCONE PAVILION: Scone is the original home of the Stone of Destiny (during its time in Scotland).

IONA: A former home of the Stone of Destiny, founded by St. Columba (who also tamed the Loch Ness Monster and died with his head resting upon the Stone).

ARBROATH ABBEY: In 1320, the Scottish leaders met here to draw up a letter to the Pope, proclaiming their intent to preserve their freedom from the English, which has become to the Scots what the Declaration of Independence is to the U.S. After the Scottish Nationalists carried off the Stone of Destiny from Westminster Abbey in 1950, they brought it here thanks to its reputation; [SPOILER] there Macbeth tried to repair the damages to the Stone, and it then addressed him, informing him of its true nature [/SPOILER].

[SPOILER] COLDSTREAM: The site of the ColdTrio's big battle and Coyote 5.0's demolition.

LEITH: Xanatos presented the Stone of Destiny to Blanchefleur here. [/SPOILER]

Maybe also Glamis and Cawdor Castles, because of their links to Macbeth (though both of them post-date his time), to serve as a counterpart to Castle Moray. And (if we can find it) Lunfanan Hill, site of Canmore's victory over Macbeth in 1057. I don't know if [SPOILER] Rathveramoen can be located on the map nowadays, though Bannockburn certainly can [/SPOILER].

Those visiting the UK could also stop by England to visit London (especially Westminster Abbey), Tintagel (not only linked to King Arthur, but the real-life model for Castle Wyvern), and Stratford-on-Avon (because of its links to Shakespeare).

Todd Jensen

Brigadoon Traveller, Demonskyre - This is all I've found on the Gargoyles Universe thing: http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=418

"So ['The New Olympians'] was created as a backdoor pilot. At the time we had big plans for the Gargoyles Universe. Hopes that it would eventually evolve into Disney's equivalent of the Marvel or DC Universe. The World Tour expanded our Universe in many ways -- mostly for the sake of the Gargoyles series itself. But also to demonstrate that our universe had the 'chops' to go the distance."

Now I interpreted that as a Disney executive decision to attempt a Gargoyles Universe, but I guess it's ambiguous. If Greg intended to take on the DCU without prior executive support, he has quite the gumption. But it seems improbable to me. Of course 'executive support' might have been one breathless line in a meeting or a trial balloon. But I'd love to hear the whole story. Stories about dreams of Gargoyles world domination during its heady second season fascinate me (like the Anahiem Gargoyles MLB story from a couple years ago).

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Hi all. You may remember that a couple months back I got a job at Winegard. As of today, I've been laid off. So it's back to the endless applications, and worrying about mortgage payments again. It was nice while it lasted, though.
"What if this wasn't a hypothetical question?"

I'd have to speculate that Disney's purchase of Marvel will mean they will be less likely in the future to license any of their properties to smaller comic companies. Marvel is a well-known name with well-established channels of distribution. By acquiring them, Disney can now control all the cash flow related to any comic books based on their shows.
Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

I'm going to start posting my con journal, by day, to the blog (http://s8.org/gargoyles/blog/), so keep an eye out for that.

I'll be working on a "Connect With Fans" page to replace the "Attend the Convention" box that I have on the right-hand of the majority of the s8.org pages.

If there's any site in particular you want to see included in that "Connect with Fans" page (like the Facebook site, or the Gargoyles Watch LJ community) let me know. Throw out some links here in the CR (so others can see them now and not have to wait for me).


Demonskrye> I imagine Gargoyles could get some attention if they were to allow for maybe a comic book miniseries or a graphic novel crossing over The Spectacular Spider-Man and Gargoyles (written by Greg of course). Should the Spider-Man fans take an interest in the Gargoyles portion, it would certainly help to add new blood to the fanbase.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
Algernon's comment about Norman Osborn: One of the neat things about Dark Reign is that it gives Osborn the chance to expand his horizons beyond tormenting a twenty nine year old who still lives with his mom.

I have a question for everyone. On the Gargwiki page for the Manhattan clan, the members are listed in order of biological age. Would that not make Fu-Dog older than Angela, Lexington, and Broadway. As of 1997, he is at least 40 years old, while the others are only 39. Does anyone agree with me?
Adam - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]

Andrea - Re Scanning Stickers & Cards. No need to trouble yourself. That's all been done a long time ago. All of that and a LOT MORE is available at the Avalon Archive(which can be found under the "Other Sites" link at the top of this page. In the Gallery section, you can find all those images, including the Marvel Comics. BTW(I remember scanning some of those series 1 cards & stickers many moons ago for the site ^_^). A lot of work went into the Avalon archive by a lote of dedicated fans. Although it hasn't been updated in a while, there's still scads of great Garg relateed info there worth checking out if you haven't before.

Disney/Marvel> My guess and what I've been hearing from friends more knowledgeable about this than me is that whatever effects Disney's purchase of Marvel may have will not be seen for some time. As Landon pointed out, there are a lot of Marvel related deals already in place and a number of Disney comics deals already in place and those will probably continue at least until the contracts run out. So the Boom! Studios deal for the Pixar and Muppets licenses is probably set for however long they have it for. The future of a "Gargoyles" comic is a little less certain. It is at least possible that Disney would rather tap Marvel to do something with the property if they want to take another shot at a comic, and who knows how Marvel editorial might want to handle the comic (whether they would want Greg on board, whether they would acknowledge the existence of the SLG comics, etc.) Then again, they could get Marvel to do a new comic and Marvel might do a great job. Or they may decide that it's better for them to have SLG just hand them a licensing fee so that Disney doesn't have to accept any of the risks if the comics doesn't do well. Or they may not want to do anything with the property, comic or otherwise. We can speculate all we want, but right now, we really don't know what this might mean for "Gargoyles." All we really know is what we've always known: that "Gargoyles" has a much better chance of getting another shot in comics form if the trades sell well.

Brigadoon Traveller> My memory is no doubt a little rusty, but the way I recall it going is that Greg pitched the potential expansion of "Gargoyles" - through the spin-offs and such - as a way for Disney to have their own equivalent of a superhero comics universe. Maybe Disney was toying with the idea of buying Marvel that far back and Greg was using that angle to try to get them excited about making "Gargoyles" bigger. But I don't think that anyone higher up with Greg had really made the decision to develop a Gargoyles universe to rival the Marvel and DC universes, let alone do that in place of buying Marvel.

As for why Disney may have gone for purchasing Marvel as opposed to nurturing a property that hey already known, aside from the various issues between Disney and "Gargoyles" that have been discussed previously, the Marvel characters are what are called "presold properties." The target audience for these characters and the new media and merchandise featuring them are already aware of the Marvel stable of characters. This cuts down on the amount of work Disney has to do explaining them to the public. To an degree, Disney and Marvel can just say "Hey, there's a Captain America movie coming out" or "Here's a new Spider-Man show" and people will check it out, because they already know who Captain America and Spider-Man are and they know already if they like these characters. Most people do not know who Goliath and David Xanatos and Thailog and Dr Svearius and so on and so forth are, so Disney would have to essentially start from the ground up building both the universe and the public's awareness of it.

Demonskrye - [<---"Toy Story" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

Wow, there's more Gargoyles chatter on Twitter in the past 4 hours than in weeks. It's obviously stuck in the back of a lot of people's minds.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Disney + Marvel + Greg Weisman = HAPPY
Disney + Marvel - Greg Weisman = SAD

Does anyone know if Greg has any interest in working with Disney/Marvel again?

Anthony Tini

Guardian> Re: Disney Buying Marvel . . . Does anyone remember the Marvel Gargoyles comics? Greg himself doesn't consider them canon . . . This worries me. I didn't realize Marvel was that far down the hole.

His stance on the Gargoyles comics has nothing to do with Marvel publishing them, but rather than they weren't written by him. It's really no different than The Goliath Chronicles or the Disney Adventures comic stories being non canon.

Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
Algernon's comment about Norman Osborn: One of the neat things about Dark Reign is that it gives Osborn the chance to expand his horizons beyond tormenting a twenty nine year old who still lives with his mom.

I recall Greg once saying that back in the 90s Disney was interested in buying Marvel, but instead decided to create their own universe with Gargoyles. Makes me wonder whether the execs down at Disney had considered further developing their own pre-existing "superhero" universe before their recent decision to buy Marvel. Though I doubt this would have been as appealing to them as buying Marvel was.

But it would have been interesting had the Gargoyles universe progressed so far as to be on par as the Marvel Universe, which boasts over 5000 characters.

Really hoping this move has seriously good implications for any future Gargoyle stories, and not that Disney decides to shelf it again. But I'm sure whatever ramifications this decision has, Greg Weisman will be at the front line pitching his ideas to Disney.

Brigadoon Traveller

Re: Disney Buying Marvel . . . Does anyone remember the Marvel Gargoyles comics? Greg himself doesn't consider them canon . . . This worries me. I didn't realize Marvel was that far down the hole.
Guardian - [Guardian105 at gmail dot com]
Patient Zero

Well, I posted my reviews on Amazon for CB1 and CB2. I'm going to wait until I actually read Bad Guys before I review it.

I encourage all of you to post reviews for any of the Gargoyles trades that you've read. Even if you haven't read the two new ones yet, go back and post a review for CB1. Its sales are probably still relevant, and a bunch of 5-star reviews might prompt someone to buy it. Then they might decide to buy CB2 and Bad Guys because they liked CB1 so much.

Review, review, review!

Rate, rate, rate!


Hopefully the acquisition of Marvel by Disney will being good things, especially in Gargoyle circles. Who knows?

I should be receiving my final proof today ... if it comes out right I'll be live for sale tomorrow! WEEEE!

Desert Coyote
The writer formerly known as Coyote the Bando

Purplegoldfish: buy from slgcomic.com. Yes, it's more expensive, but you're getting it directly from the publisher (so you know they have it in stock TODAY) and the extra money they take in off that sale should help the numbers SLG president Dan Vado has to crunch before he figures if he wants to try and deal with Disney on renewing the license.

I ordered CBV2 through SLG comic the day it came out and I received mine in the mail in just a couple of days.


:D I see disney is going back to its 2nd Generation animation styles :D
Saw the trailer for "Princess and the Frog". That looks as good as that movie "Enchanted," and I can't wait for a few years from now, when 90s nostalgia become hot again; maybe someone in Disney will put in a good word for a "Gargoyles" movie :D

Balron - [RobertoTh3ba1r0n at yahoo dot com]
Roberto Apollo Theodore Rivera

Someone on the ToonZone forum has a good point:

"Sony outright owns Spider-Man for the use in movies and TV for the long-term, so Disney can't just decide to make their own show. They can choose not to renew Spec Spidey, but Sony is free to shop it around at that point or just decide to end it for good."

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Andrea: I'm glad to help. :]
Kythera of Anevern - [kythera (at) gmail (dot) com]
"Live for glory, strength and fury; play your part in the greater scheme of life and nature"

Graymonk - Yeah, Disney is 100% in the comics business and not just with Kingdom. Hopefully Gargoyles will stay somewhat under the radar. If Disney notices us, I doubt good things will happen. I'm also worried about Spectacular Spider-Man. Before, Disney just ran the US channel it aired on. Now they own the property and the US distribution, but not the production. I can't imagine they like that situation. The whole thing makes me nervous.

Rebel - I wouldn't mark down negative reviews. That's only for when they rate something a certain way and give no adequate explanation or their reasons are completely inappropriate. Otherwise, people are entitled to their opinions and I don't think the fandom wants that kind of bad karme. Adding positive reviews is a great idea though and would definitely help.

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Guys, why don't we bombard Amazon with 5-star ratings and positive reviews for the Gargoyles trades? It may not help, but it certainly can't hurt. While we're at it, we can also mark any negative reviews as "not helpful".

It's just been announced that Disney is buying Marvel Comics:


There's no mention of how this'll affect the various licensed Disney comics though.


Andrea: Hey! I hear you have the Gargoyles stickers? By any chance, do you have the sticker album? I have it but it's in Spanish. It even has all the stickers. I've always wanted to see the English version...

I took pictures of all the pages some time ago. If anyone's interested in seeing it, let me know so I can get the Photobucket link.

And I think I heard somebody mention the Gargoyles kite some time ago? That was me; I have the kite. It's been adorning my wall for years. You can see it here: http://dtaina.deviantart.com/art/Taina-s-Workstation-100445255

D. Taina - [demona3 at hotmail dot com]
The story is told, though who can say if it be true... -Shari

Purplegoldfish - I'm sorry for your frustration. I hope that the unacceptable Amazon problems are due to popularity, but SLG has pretty much screwed up the last two trades from the start, so I doubt it. I'm promoting the SLG link full-time now after pointing people to Amazon for months. Here's some links you can use:


On a positive note, I did get a mention on the blog of a British Columbian radio personality with 281 Twitter followers: http://juliasherred.com/2009/08/gargoyles-comic/ Every bit helps.

Leah - Have fun! I've heard PAX is a blast. If you want to promote the comics and PAX allows flyers, you could put these up everywhere: http://www.tc.umn.edu/~thom1576/Gargoyles-comic-flyer.pdf If you use masking tape, it won't leave a mark on any surface but should hold through the convention.

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

"If I wasn't as dedicated to the property as I am, I would have given up a long time ago. How is it that everyone in here seems to get it the day of? Well at least I'm not the only one, judging by some of last weeks comments. Geeze, it's a miracle they were even able to sell to anyone besides us hardcore fans."

I'm hoping that non-hardcore fans aren't as concerned about when they get the book as we are. I'm sure ordering through Amazon or Barnes and Nobles would get you the book eventually, and maybe "eventually" is good enough for more casual fans. It's not good enough for me.

I still haven't gotten my Bad Guys trade, even though I told my comic book store weeks ago that I wanted it. I'm pretty PO'd about that.


Kit> Thank you so much for your generosity in allowing complete sets of the cards to go to the fans! I replied to everyone (which I was supposed to do yesterday) to remind them to drop you a line with their mailing address along with which numbers they needed so you can mail them out to them. I know it's only like, 2 cards, but it still helps!

I bought envelopes for the sticker sets so I can start packing those up. That sure should be fun, since there's 198 in the set! For those who are awatinting them, I'll send an e-mail out when I mail them (and will provide tracking numbers if applicable). Since everyone is several thousand miles away (I'm ALL the way on the East Coast, seriously, it's like a 30 min drive to the Atlantic), it may take a few days to get out there for everyone. It shouldn't be too much to ship, but I won't know how much until I get to the post office since it's partially based on destination and weight.

Since I'll have little to do on Tuesday night, I'll start scanning in pics of the cards (both sides), as well as the stickers so even people who don't have them can enjoy them :) I get bored easily and need a project to keep my busy anyway.

Andrea - [SailorV77 at yahoo dot com]

I'm still waiting for the "Bad Guys" trade paperback too, though at least I got "Clan-Building Volume Two" on the 18th. If Slave Labor Graphics comes out with any more "Gargoyles" graphic novels (let's hope it does), maybe I should order directly from them next time. (Though I didn't know you could do that when I put in my pre-orders at the local bookstore.)

On a happier note, Greg Weisman mentioned, over at GargWiki, that he'll be putting up the script for this year's Radio Play (the crossover between "Gargoyles" and "The Spectacular Spider-Man") at "Ask Greg" - presumably serialized, in light of what I've heard of its length. I'm looking forward to that.

Todd Jensen

Purplegoldfish: I too would suggest ordering from SLG's website. I ordered CB, Volume 2 two weeks before the Gathering, and I wasn't expecting to get it before the con. But it came in a few days.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
Never bring an ice cream truck to a taser fight!

Oops, I guess Leah was faster then me. I guess I mean 10th. :P
Audra - [birdygirl85 at hotmail dot com]
I <3 Brooklyn


Purplegoldfish, that sucks. That's really frustrating. It seems like the best bet is to order from SLG directly. I pre-ordered Bad Guys from Barnes and Noble probably over a month ago, and still no email from them... I just gave up when they said they have no idea when they are getting it in, and I ordered online from SLG. I would rather pay shipping then have no idea how long I will be waiting to get my copy. After ordering from SLG, I got my copy in two days. I would rather order from SLG then Amazon, I would think that is faster...

Audra - [birdygirl85 at hotmail dot com]
I <3 Brooklyn


Insomnia! My oldest friend and greatest enemy. My head is full of words and ideas, but they don't seem to be in any sort of an order. I'm traveling right now, but as soon as I get home I'm cracking open the old DVD sets. I wonder how much interest in the trades I can drum up at PAX.

Leah - [beeandcat at gmail]
'tis better to have conned and lost...

Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]

7th in name of back to work, Yuck!!!
VickyUK - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]

6th. That's all I got.
"The alien mothership is in orbit here. If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate." -Zap Brannigan

Fifth,maybe. Probably not because I'm about to go on an annoyed rant, lol.

I haven't been very active on here lately mainly because I haven't gotten the trades and didn't go to the Gathering. Though I've managed to spoil myself because of my damned curiosity.

But speaking of the trades, I am absolutely fed up with waiting for them. It's ridiculous. First, I ordered them from Amazon a month before their release, but checking on the order later, the site tells me there are (unexplained) delays and I wouldn't receive them until long after their publication date,and I cancelled the order in a week. So I call a nearby store who informs me that CB2 is available to order. I called the next week and they told me they weren't sure they could order. Several back and forths with the store later, I got in touch with the manager who said that the book didn't exist on any publisher's lists (WTF!) After that wasted week I tried a bunch of farther stores including a comic/graphic novel store specializing in fantasy science fiction comics from little known publishers,including SLG. (How could they not carry it?!) And this is NY, not Alaska!
So I order from Amazon again, namely because they were the cheapest. Well I asked for two day shipping, and that was TWO WEEKS AGO, and apparently they haven't even shipped them yet!! This is absolutely insane. If I wasn't as dedicated to the property as I am, I would have given up a long time ago. How is it that everyone in here seems to get it the day of? Well at least I'm not the only one, judging by some of last weeks comments. Geeze, it's a miracle they were even able to sell to anyone besides us hardcore fans.



Third! I'm hoping to buy the BG book...somehow...
The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>T.T)> I missed the final Gathering... School can be so cruel... This could be my one major regret of 2009...

Second in the name for starting classes tomorrow!

Dang it . . .

"The suspense is terrible . . . I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka

First. Here's hoping that a significant amount of trades had been purchased or ordered.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
Algernon's comment about Norman Osborn: One of the neat things about Dark Reign is that it gives Osborn the chance to expand his horizons beyond tormenting a twenty nine year old who still lives with his mom.