A Station Eight Fan Web Site

Gargoyles

The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending October 12, 2009

Index : Hide Images

LOL on the "shagged by a rare parrot"!

Todd> I think you were the one that wanted to know about the seek and find/where's waldo type gargoyle book? I have it, and yes, Bronx does appear attracted to a poodle on one page. And yes, those villains do appear in the book, too. Mr. Cue Ball lol...

Jade Griffin - [jade_griffin at hotmail dot com]
"Food, food, FOOD!!" - Jade Griffin, on many occasions

Algernon> I just call them the faer folk, or faere folk. Whichever. All the same:)
Jade Griffin - [jade_griffin at hotmail dot com]
"Food, food, FOOD!!" - Jade Griffin, on many occasions

Lurker> That's awesome! And btw, I still think the pedicab thing you do is really cool. Glad you came out of lurk mode for a bit.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" -Sevarius, 'Louse'

GUARDIAN> Gargoyles have their own spiritual beliefs, they don't follow any human religion.

From GargWiki:

Gargoyles have a vague religious belief, if one different from that of recognized human religions, both monotheistic and pantheistic. Their god is nameless, of course, undefined, and unlimited. Gargoyles see all things as part of the whole. Some gargoyles have an interest in the spiritual, but they merely follow this interest without seeing themselves as priests or priestesses. (The only known gargoyle at present with such interests was Desdemona.) They have no creation myths, for the simple reason that they are not interested in their origins, just accepting themselves as existing.

Greg Bishansky

"Either way, I don't think you'll ever see "Gargoyles" endorse one religious view. Which is at it should be."

Agreed. No sense alienating anyone.

Though, that raises an interesting question . . . What do gargoyles think of religion?

Battle Beast> Yeah, we're pretty crazy here. :-P I'm curious, though, is a Canada Thanksgiving the same as a USA'ian Thanksgiving? I'm guessing no, but I've never really thought about it. I just found out Canada celebrates Thanksgiving 'cause it was on my calendar for the Twelfth.

Guardian - [Guardian105 at gmail dot com]

TODD> Actually, I'm pretty sure Titania introduced herself as Queen of The Third Race in "The Gathering", so they might not have any problem with the term. But now I'm just quibbling.

If some people find Children of Oberon too wordy, just acronymise it in good internet tradition. They can be the OC or the CoO or the...

Ahh to heck with it! Just suck it up people, a little extra typing practice won't kill ya.

Algernon

*Crawls out of lurk mode, dusts off the keyboard*

HELLO EVERYONE!

I operate a pedicab in my fair city and came across something interesting last night. While there has been much in the comment room that tempted me to exit lurk mode, this did it because I thought it was cool.

I was hailed down by a family of four, mother, father and two sons. For some reason one of the kids said, "On the TV show Gargoyles, the gargoyles come to life. But only at night." What made me think this was cool was that the kid was no older than 6 or 7.

See, Gargoyles is still reaching new generations.

Lurker - [JohnR783 at hotmail dot com]

Or Third Race (though I doubt they'd consider themselves "Third").
Todd Jensen

If we must have something a bit more abbreviated, why not just call them Avalonians?
Algernon

Can we not call them fay? The term isn't accurate at all, as only a small faction of them are fay.

Let's call them Children of Oberon or Oberon's Children please? It's like calling all human beings Caucasians.

http://gargoyles.dracandros.com/Misconceptions_and_urban_legends_about_Gargoyles#Fay_is_a_term_for_the_Third_Race

Just saying ;)

Greg Bishansky

Maybe not an 'afterlife' as many religions believe, but at least a magical spiritual realm...with as much magic that is used in the series it might be be beneficial to consider more occult-ish belief systems. we've seen the ghosts, reincarnated CuCullin, and the fey folk. of course the actual religious aspect would never be discussed in situ...just something else for us to ponder
chris - [RashaTigress at gmail dot com]

Guardian> No, you Americans are late with your holiday! ;)

(actually, it true.)

And yes, I am from Canada!

battle Beast - [SUPPORT SLG]
That is all I will say.

HARLAN> Death. The afterlife was never mentioned.

Now, personally, I don't believe in an afterlife. But many do, so I think keeping that sort of thing vague is a good thing.

Reincarnation seems to be a different animal than an after life. Especially if sorcery is involved.

Either way, I don't think you'll ever see "Gargoyles" endorse one religious view. Which is at it should be.

Greg Bishansky

Remind me: Was Anubis stated to affect death...or the afterlife specifically?
Harlan Phoenix

GREG B.> Well we know from Rory Dugan that at least reincarnation exits in the Gargoyles Universe, and the megalith dance proves that souls can exist independantly of their bodies given the right circumstances.

Considering that we've already met Anubis and Odin -two deities responsible for overseeing the afterlives of their respective mythologies- plus the fact that Puck can manipulate the souls of willing participants, it's not too outlandish to suggest that some members of the third race could make special arrangements for the souls of their mortal followers.

Of course that's all just speculation on my part, but it's something worth thinking about.

Algernon

Didn't Greg say at some point that the Trio couldn't remember an afterlife because - well - they were brought back to life...?

I can't point it out, but I think I read some statement about that issue AGES ago on s8...

As for the idea, I think the ghosts alone are a clear proof a sort of life-after-death exists in the Garg Universe...

Brook
I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

One of the things about "Gargoyles" is that it never came out and said whether or not there was an afterlife. Anubis never mentioned an afterlife, just that he controlled life and death. And the ghosts of Hakon and the Captain were tied to the Megalith Dance, and Demona brought back the ColtTrio through magic.

I don't think you'll ever see "Gargoyles" take a stand on the issue.

Greg Bishansky

ADDENDUM: And apologies for double-posting.

Battle Beast> You're a bit early on the uptake, but I guess you're from Canada? A heartfelt happy thanksgiving to you, too. :)

Guardian - [Guardian105 at gmail dot com]

Patrick> I was going to post the same thing, but I decided not too. A knuckle-bump for thinking alike. ;)

I would assume, at least in the Gargoyles universe (and regardless of how anyone feels), there is some form of afterlife. Let's not forget the episode with Anubis. Apologies, I've forgotten the name.

Guardian - [Guardian105 at gmail dot com]

HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYONE!!!
battle Beast - [SUPPORT SLG]
That is all I will say.

I can't decide if it's more disturbing to think that there is no gargoyle afterlife or that the spirits of the gargoyles killed in the Wyvern Massacre have been in limbo for the past thousand years and may be stuck there forever because no one performed a Wind Ceremony for them.
Demonskrye - [<---"Snow White" Part Three at The Ink and Pixel Club]

"Legion" proves that gargoyles have spirits, and it is likely that the Coldtrio didn't pass on because nobody held a Wind Ceremony for them. Or maybe Demona's cantrips in "Reawakening" had something to do with it.

More likely the latter, I think. While the Coldtrio were certainly bound to Coldstone's body, we know nothing about the spirits of the rest of the massacred gargoyles. I'm pretty sure that Greg confirmed that Owen was referring to the ghosts of Hakon and the Captain, not of the massacred gargoyles, when he said that Castle Wyvern was haunted.

Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]

GUARDIAN - I've sometimes wondered from those words of Coldstone's whether gargoyles don't get an afterlife (an unsettling thought), but more likely he simply wasn't properly sent on his way because nobody performed a Wind Ceremony for the shattered gargoyles.
Todd Jensen

But the question remains...

Do gargoyles dream of stone sheep?

Sorry. :P

Patrick - [<-- Gathering T-shirt Clearance Sale]
"And if we had a tail, would it be legal to leave it out, or would you have to tuck it in?" - Gallagher

Just because a human is sleeping doesn't mean the brain isn't busy processing the day's experience.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rem_sleep

If gargoyles don't have some sort of brain activity while in stone sleep, we'd have to wonder when their brains find the time to turn experiences into long-term memory, if they're otherwise busy learning new things every minute of their waking hours.

Patrick - [<-- Gathering T-shirt Clearance Sale]
"And if we had a tail, would it be legal to leave it out, or would you have to tuck it in?" - Gallagher

Do gargoyles dream?

Watch "Long Way to Morning" again. ;)

Greg Bishansky

When Demona first awakened Coldstone, she asked him if he remembered anything. He answers along the lines of "I remember the castle, and going to sleep . . . Then, oblivion."

From this statement I believe Gargoyles do dream, yes.

Guardian - [Guardian105 at gmail dot com]

Brook > Though the two types of sleep are different, in both cases, the individual doing the sleeping isn't awake and gaining experiences.

(Unless having a dream counts as experience, but if that's the case, gargoyles dream too--don't they?)

Rebel

Patrick, Greg> Thanks.

I remembered that I have some of the "Marvel" Gargoyles comics. I am going to check them.

battle Beast - [SUPPORT SLG]
That is all I will say.

@ Rebel: Sure, but you forget that human sleep (i.e. in live form) is different from Gargoyle sleep (being cast in stone).

But still, yeah, you are right...

Brook
I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

[SPOILER] Being stuck in the middle of World War II - especially the Pacific theatre - when you're a "Scottish-American" gargoyle and your mate's Japanese (assuming that Nashville was hatched in that setting) sounds like a possible recipe for trouble; Brooklyn might have even more than the usual amount of choice words to the Phoenix for depositing him there. [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen

Incisivis made a comment that merits a response.

"But doesn't the longer lifespan of gargoyles stem from stone sleep? So they wouldn't have experienced anything "extra" during the half of their life they're asleep and not aging?"

I've thought about this, but mathematically, it still turns out that a gargoyle would have had more time to gain experiences than his human counterpart.

Let's take a 40 year old gargoyle and a 20 year old human.

A gargoyle sleeps for 12 hours in a 24 hour period. So, a 40 year old gargoyle has been ALIVE for 40 years, but only AWAKE for 20 years.

A human sleeps for (roughly) 7-9 hours in a 24 hour period. So, a 20 year old human has been ALIVE for 20 years, but only AWAKE for about 13.3 years.

I'm using 8 hours of sleep per night to determine this number--which obviously doesn't take into account the fact that human children sleep a whole lot more than 8 hours a day during their first few years of life, and sometimes older humans don't get a full 8 hours--but I figured this would at least be a good base guesstimate.

So when you compare a 40 year old gargoyle and a 20 year old human, while they may be biologically equivalent in age, the gargoyle has been alive twice as long and has had roughly 7 extra years to accumulate life experiences and wisdom.

Rebel

Geoff> If it's approved and still there, it's because Greg hasn't gotten to it yet. He answers questions on his free time.
Greg Bishansky

What do you do when you have approved, unanswered ASK GREG questions on the back burner since July?

Do I resubmit becuz this is quite off-putting.

Geoff - [geofferyvolcovici at kings dot edu]
Geoffrey Volcovici

Greg: [SPOILER] You're right about USS Nashville, but it was a Brooklyn-class light cruiser. USS Brooklyn spent WWII in the Atlantic. Check: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Nashville_(CL-43) [/SPOILER]
Desert Coyote - [<- Buy my book, please?]
The Gargfic writer formerly known as Coyote the Bando

Todd> thanks!! and i have all the comics
chris - [RashaTigress at gmail dot com]

CHRIS - The spoilers are for Chapters Nine through Twelve of "Clan-Building" and Chapters Five and Six of "Bad Guys" in the trade paperbacks; not everyone has a copy of the paperbacks yet, unfortunately ("Bad Guys", in particular, seems to be undergoing a few delivery problems). To read the spoilers (assuming that you've read those chapters already - if you haven't, I advise you *not* to read the spoilers), just run your cursor with the mouse over the spaces between the spoiler tags.
Todd Jensen

It's been a looong time since I've been to comment room. What's with all the 'spoiler' block-outs? there's nothing to read or comment on. How do I or can I remove that?
chris - [RashaTigress at gmail dot com]

In order to wear modern clothing, someone would have to be making it specially tailored to fit gargoyles. Wings, tails, elbow spurs, knee spurs, and big raptor-like feet all pose their own challenges.
Patrick - [<-- Gathering T-shirt Clearance Sale]
"And if we had a tail, would it be legal to leave it out, or would you have to tuck it in?" - Gallagher

The talk about gargoyle clothing reminds me of another one of my crazy little creativity demons:

The restaurant managers in New York are glad that they'd already established a "No shirt, no shoes, no service" policy before the gargoyles appeared in New York. Since most of the gargoyles (at least, in Manhattan) don't wear shirts, and none of them wear shoes, the restaurants can deny admittance to them without appearing guilty of species discrimination, and their managers congratulate themselves on the brilliance of the plan.

Todd Jensen

[SPOILER] Oh, very cool. I did not know that. Cool. :)

Like possibly most people, I was thinking of "Nashville" the place, but this is even better. Sort of reminds me of how most characters in Evangelion have names with naval roots.

But you know, gargoyles wearing modern clothing is still a curious oddity, so I was just wonderin'. [/SPOILER]

Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even dragonflies and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream."--Shirley Jackson

BATTLE BEAST> Demona never said that line in any episode of the series.

INCISIVIS> [SPOILER] I still think Gnash's shirt has everything to do with his name. In World War II, in the Pacific theater, the USS Brooklyn fought alongside the USS Nashville. So, the United States Navy shirt is a nod to that. [/SPOILER]

Greg Bishansky

Battle Beast > I don't recall that quote being in the show, but I have deja vu that I've seen it asked about before.
Patrick - [<-- Gathering T-shirt Clearance Sale]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

AD ASTRA - All three of those questions, unfortunately, seemed too close to the ideas masquerading as questions category. For example, asking if Billy and Susan would show up in the New Olympians spin-off could be interpreted as an idea - meaning that if Greg *does* have plans to include them in the spin-off, but he saw that question before the spin-off came out, it would be difficult dealing with the possible accusation that he got that idea from you.

I think that the Quincy Hemings question is also too close to an idea. When his entry first went up on GargWiki, I added to it a comment that his surname was probably inspired by the Sally Hemings business; Bishansky deleted it, explaining that while he liked the idea, it came too close to an idea for a venue that Greg Weisman visits often (and has even contributed to) - and I think that he was right to do so.

I'm sorry about that, but ideas can just be so subtle sometimes. I remember the trouble we had when I let such a question get by, simply because it was so subtle (a query about whether the Praying Gargoyle had other abilities besides protecting the gargoyles from Demona's bio-engineered plague).

REBEL - I would advise you to talk to your comic shop about it. After waiting a few weeks for "Bad Guys" to show up at Left Bank Books (where I'd pre-ordered it), I talked to the store about it; they discovered that the distributor had never shipped a copy to them after all (for reasons unknown) and so re-ordered it from a closer warehouse. Maybe the distributors goofed up with your comic shop as well.

Todd Jensen

[SPOILER] I believe, in the comics, Nashville spells his name with a 'g.' Not that anyone would have actually heard that, but since it's a comic obviously the opportunity for the distinction was taken. [/SPOILER]

Incisivis> [SPOILER] Greg Weisman supports his troops? There's no saying Brooklyn hasn't gone forward to a time where Gargoyles are accepted and Navy shirts are available to them for purchase. :-P [/SPOILER]

Guardian - [Guardian105 at gmail dot com]

[SPOILER] But doesn't the longer lifespan of gargoyles stem from stone sleep? So they wouldn't have experienced anything "extra" during the half of their life they're asleep and not aging?

I can agree with the idea that gargoyle children may be expected to develop faster and take on more responsibilities at an earlier age than equivalent to humans, but I think it's more to do with the dangerous conditions they once lived under, and still do, rather than the conditions of their aging, or of being born slightly stronger than humans are.

Also, does anybody but me wonder why and how Nashville is wearing modern clothing? That's something we haven't seen before on Gargoyles as far as such things being gargoyles' regular outfits. And of course, why it's a U.S. Navy shirt.

"Gnash" probably wouldn't come out in spoken dialogue unless specified, but I like it better than "Nash", because it seems more gargoyle-ish. [/SPOILER]

Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even dragonflies and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream."--Shirley Jackson

Gargoyle childhood is interesting, and I'm really glad to be seeing more kids in the stories. There are basically two components to childhood that makes children distinct from adults -- experience of the world, and biological development. Those two things are aligned differently in gargoyles than in humans -- their brains, while at a relatively early stage of development, have had twice the time to amass knowledge and experience of human children at a biologically equivalent level. That just makes them massively different in all kinds of fascinating ways that I fear will never really be explored (even if we do get more stories -- I just doubt it's a direction Greg would be interested in going in).

[SPOILER] I bet Nashville is pretty mature for a gargoyle kid of his age, due to the circumstances he's had to adapt to growing up. I see he's pretty weaponized. I had wondered how involved in combat he would be allowed to be at that age -- I bet gargoyles pick it up pretty early.

I also wonder how Brook and Katana managed to raise a child all on their own while timedancing erratically for all those years. I wonder if they were allowed (by the Phoenix's benevolence?) to settle down somewhere safe for any length of time, maybe even in Katana's time with her clan where Nashville could be hatched and raised with other gargoyles. Then one day, back comes the fireball and whisks Brooklyn, Katana, Fu-Dog and little toddler Nashville up for more adventures.

(I'm not not sure about his nickname being spelled with a "G," by the way. I've been thinking of him as Nash for all these years, and I liked it. If we'd seen this comic on tv, we never would have known. Unless he added "With a 'g.'") [/SPOILER]


I was also startled to see Kermit's name here. I thought I came up with it (I probably did, independently -- it's a fairly obvious conclusion). Do we have names for the other gargoyles in Demona's clan? I'm still the only one who calls the long-nosed one Masque, right?

[SPOILER] Also, when and how did we learn about True? I don't remember ever hearing her name before (and I didn't know Hudson had another child in that generation). [/SPOILER]

bluewyvern

http://www.jh-author.com/tengu1.jpg

Yr right, it is a Tengu!!... How did I mix this up with Oni... o.O
No play, all work... :(

Brook
I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

@ Greg B: There's this one picture of an Oni, classic japanese painting, even the color, wings, beak match. So, well, it's to me pretty sure she was designed with an image of an Oni in mind. If not, it'd be a big coincidence.

Just did a google search... did I mix this up??? o.O Was it NOT an Oni... but something else... damn, I got too much information these days to cram in there... But I do remember this picture, looking exactly like Katana (more or less)...

And my name is Greg Weisman.
[SPOILER] In my head. [/SPOILER]

Brook
I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

DOES ANYONE RECALL

a line Demona may have said: "You're no bastion of morality yourself, Goliath."

Or did I just dream this line up?

battle Beast - [SUPPORT SLG]
That is all I will say.

Laura > Are you posting each of those as a separate entry? Being that they're unrelated to each other, that'd be the only reason I can see why they shouldn't be making it through.
Patrick - [<-- Gathering T-shirt Clearance Sale]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

It's been ages since I been to the comment room, maybe even a full decade ~URK~, I hope I keep to ettiquite.

I have a question for Todd. I've been having trouble posting 3 questions to Ask Greg. They've been booted twice. Can you tell me what is problematic about them so I can post them in unobjectionable form?

The first is about Demona-
In the past friends and I have commented how Shakespeare's Lady Macbeth resembles her more than Gruoch. I wanted to ask Greg if Demona has influences or inspired characters in popular entertainment through the ages.

Second is about Terry and New Olympians-
part a- from his age while trick or treating it is implied the events of New Olympians are a few years off. Did the NYC's previous experience with Gargoyles make NYC more receptive to the appearance of the NOs?
part b- IIRC, Terry was trick or treating with Billy & Susie. Do the siblings play a role in New Olympians?

Lastly I had a question on Quincy Hemings-
When I saw his name I immeadiately wondered if it was meant to reference previous presidents and/or woman famously connected to the presidency. Hemings in reference to Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings, Quincy in reference to John Q Adams, and his mother Abigal Adams from whose side the Quincy name came down. Depending on the answer I would have follow up questions, but the only ones I'd feel comfortable were free of new ideas at this point was to specify whether it was a reference, relation or direct descendent connection to the presidents and / or ladies.

I thought I was pretty good keeping the new ideas out of the Demona and Hemings questions, but perhaps I'm wrong. The New Olympian question seems completely straight forward. Is there an entirely different problem with these question hidden firmly in my blind spot?

thanks

Laura 'ad astra' Sack - [foolchaser at gmail]
Laura 'ad astra' Sack

Thanks for clarifying Todd, Matt.

Matt> [SPOILER] Like Greg B said, we have no way of knowing unless Greg tells or shows us -- not that I'm really interested in knowing this little tidbit of the Gargoyles universe. You kindah proved my point when you mentioned to Demonskrye that the family would have to stay close together; it wouldn't surprise me at all if there were some times when things had to be -- interrupted . . . [/SPOILER]

Guardian - [Guardian105 at gmail dot com]

Todd: [SPOILER] I think that sounds like just the sort of thing a nine year-old would say. Especially one whose dad was Brooklyn. I don't really see the problem. Of course I grew up with the Turtles so I was saying things like "cowabunga, dude" from a very young age. [/SPOILER]
Ed

MATT> <<So, Nashville witnessed Brook and Katana conceiving Egwardo? Nashville witnessed Katana laying Egwardo?>>

Are these things dirty and taboo for gargoyles? A lot of animal species out there mate in front of their young. Sex being this dirty, dirty thing is a human invention.

Just saying. Not saying he did, just saying that we have no idea.

Greg Bishansky

Demonskrye> [SPOILER] The problem isn't that Gnash and Fu-Dog couldn't take care of themselves while Brook and Katana were on their own, the problem is the fear that the Phoenix will arrive and take Brooklyn off without some members of his family! This, I think, explains why Katana carries Egwardo around with her at all times. Wouldn't want the egg to get left behind afterall. [/SPOILER]
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" -Sevarius, 'Louse'

Greg B [SPOILER] I'm imagine that Nashville grew up faster than some gargoyles his age due to his unique circumstances, but I think he's still very much a kid. It's been suggested before that a twenty year old gargoyle is probably going to be somewhat more mature mentally than a ten year old human simply by virtue of having lived longer and picked up more information. To me, Nashville's nickname suggests that he - like some members of the fandom - is not overly fond of his full name. The fact that it's spelled specifically spelled "Gnash" rather than "Nash" seems to me like an attempt on his part to make his name sound cooler: "No, it's 'Gnash,' like gnashing teeth." [/SPOILER]

Matt> [SPOILER] Though we don't yet know how discreet gargoyles are around their own kind when it comes to mating and laying eggs, I imagine Brooklyn and Katana could still keep Gnash from observing the more adult aspects of their life if they wanted to. If their current stop included a friendly gargoyle clan or trustworthy humans, they could simply leave Gnash with them and go off to do whatever they wanted or needed to. Or Fu-Dog could keep an eye on him. If Gnash is old enough to wield a sword, he's probably old enough to take care of himself for a little while as long as there's someone who can help within shouting distance in case of trouble.

Again, I don't know how gargoyles think about these things, but it's possible that if Gnash had any inkling of what his parents were up to, he wouldn't want to be even remotely nearby. [/SPOILER]


Rebel> If you can't afford a second copy, I would talk to the staff at your comic shop and ask them if they can cancel the order or if they would be able to sell it to someone else if it did come in. It really shouldn't be taking this long, but if it's not the fault of the shop, I would at least give them a heads-up so they don't just get stuck with the extra cop with no warning.

Demonskrye - [<---"Snow White" Part Three at The Ink and Pixel Club]

Personally, I still don't have my copy of Bad Guys. Perhaps I should just stop waiting for my comic book shop to get it and just order it for myself online? I didn't want to get it that way because I already asked them to get it for me, and I'd hate for them to end up getting a copy in and I don't buy it because I've already got a copy (can't afford to have two copies, sorry).
Rebel

MATT - Good point. (Though since the London clan probably follows the gargoyle way of raising children, I doubt that the gargoyles in it would have given that much thought to who Lunette's biological parents were.)

I wonder when it will be safe to stop marking the material from "Clan-Building Volume Two" Chapters Nine through Twelve and "Bad Guys" Chapters Five and Six with spoiler tags. The books have been out over a month and a half by now, but I know that many people weren't able to find copies for a long time. Does anybody have any idea when we can dispense with the tags?

Todd Jensen

Guardian> [SPOILER] So, Nashville witnessed Brook and Katana conceiving Egwardo? Nashville witnessed Katana laying Egwardo? [/SPOILER]

Todd> The cool thing about Lunette is that the name works as both a reference to Arthurian legend AND is phonetically similiar to Leo and Una, her biological parents. So, in the Gargoyles Universe, who knows exactly why the London Clan named her Lunette. One of these reasons, or both or i it just a coincidence?

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" -Sevarius, 'Louse'

[SPOILER] Let's not forget, also, that growing up around Brooklyn, Nashville could have picked up a few "bad habits". :)

GUARDIAN - Kermit's the young green gargoyle in Demona's cell in 997. [/SPOILER]
Lunette is a young gargoyle in the London clan who looks like a unicorn, and appears in the Stone of Destiny story.

Lunette's name, incidentally, ties in with a speculation that I'd had even before the comic book began. The name comes from a story about one of King Arthur's knights named Yvain (Lunette is one of the leading female characters in the story). At one point in the tale, Yvain rescues a lion from a serpent or dragon, and the lion thereafter becomes a devoted companion, fighting bravely alongside him in his various battles. I have a theory that, in the Gargoyles Universe, it wasn't really a lion whom Yvain rescued - and that Lunette's name was given her in memory of an associate of a past friend of the London clan's ancestors.

Todd Jensen

[SPOILER] I don't see how Brooklyn and Katana could have possibly sheltered Nashville from anything . . .

And, pardon my ignorance, but who are Kermit and Lunette? [/SPOILER]

Guardian - [Guardian105 at gmail dot com]

Greg B> [SPOILER] True, Kermit and Lunette are the same age as Nashville in the comics, but we certainly don't see much of them as capable warriors. True and Kermit were not present at the Battle of Rathveramoen due to their young age (which contrasts excellant with Bodhe, btw), but we see Nashville carrying a weapon. I think there is little doubt that Nasville has seen much more action than True or Kermit or Lunette at the same age. I wouldn't neccesarily call that greater maturity, just greater experience. I don't think gargoyles Gnash's age are usually as capable of a warrior as he is, they may even be sheltered from battle until they reach physical maturity. That said, while I think Gnash has seen his fair share of battle, I also think Brook and Katana have sheltered him from some things too due to his age. [/SPOILER]
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" -Sevarius, 'Louse'

[SPOILER] Nashville is NOT a human child, and I don't think it's wise to expect him to behave like one. He's a gargoyle, not a human. This is our first time really seeing a gargoyle this young. For all we know, they probably do mature faster, and are considered able warriors at a much younger age.

Just ignore Graeme and Ariana, please. [/SPOILER]

Greg Bishansky

[SPOILER] I suspect Harlan is right about Nashville. Being involved in the Timedance probably forced Gnash to be much more mature than other gargoyles his age.

But I'm not sure if that's the motivation behind his "Yo, call me Gnash," comment. Human children, once they reach a certain age, are often preoccupied with being "cool." Maybe that's what Nashville is trying to do. Or not. [/SPOILER]

Rebel

Todd Jensen> Thanks. I suppose I shouldn't be too shocked by such bizarre merchandise after what I've already seen - such as the children's "Gargoyles" storybook in which a big night for the gargoyles consists of Goliath reviving Broadway with a hot dog when he passes out after almost being run over by Elisa's car (I am *not* making this up), or a small booklet accompanied by stamps of "Gargoyles" characters in which the gargoyles stuffed Xanatos into the lions' cage at the zoo (I'm not making this up either; I used to have it, but donated it to the 2001 Gathering).

In addition to that, the Look and Find Book also features a brief appearance by these "sophistcated" characters:

- Marty Muscle
- Sunflower
- Trendy Tracy
- Roller Blake
- Rainbow Ruby
- Mr. Cue Ball
- Spike

Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
Algernon's comment about Norman Osborn: One of the neat things about Dark Reign is that it gives Osborn the chance to expand his horizons beyond tormenting a twenty nine year old who still lives with his mom.

Oh, and I checked the GargWiki entry on that Where's Waldo-style "Gargoyles" book I mentioned a few posts ago - it mentioned that there was also a depiction of Bronx getting attracted to a French poodle (who is anything but enthusiastic about that).
Todd Jensen

[SPOILER] Being involved in the timedance probably made Gnash grow up a bit faster than he had to, even by gargoyle standards. Maybe.

Or, depending on when Brooklyn had him, he may just take after his dad. [/SPOILER]

Harlan Phoenix

I imagine Goliath would get farther than my dad did when he played Super Mario Brothers. We had to TELL him that Goombas would kill him. And then he fell into the same pit twice.
Harvester of Eyes
"Yeah, you're right about that part. I am not fit to wear the uniform. And maybe I never was. Then again neither are you." -Apollo ("Battlestar Galactica")

[SPOILER] That should have read "kind of teenagerish". [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen

[SPOILER] Speaking of Brooklyn's post-Timedancer family, does anyone besides me think that Nashville's "Yo, call me Gnash" sounds like of teenagerish for the gargoyle equivalent of a nine-year-old? Then again, kids these days.... [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen

TODD> I could imagine Goliath trying a video game, for maybe thirty seconds, to see what the fuss was. Of course, he wouldn't know a joystick from an X button, and politely give up.

Would be funny to see. Maybe he could sample Halo, and play as the Arbiter ;)

Greg Bishansky

Todd> Thinking of Goliath and Hudson playing Street Fighter is one of the best thoughts that has ever entered my head.
Harlan Phoenix

The talking bank is real. There was one in the silent auction at The Gathering 2008 which someone outbid Keith David for, and there was another one in the silent auction at this year's con that Keith David won.
Patrick - [<-- Gathering T-shirt Clearance Sale]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

CHIP - Thanks. I suppose I shouldn't be too shocked by such bizarre merchandise after what I've already seen - such as the children's "Gargoyles" storybook in which a big night for the gargoyles consists of Goliath reviving Broadway with a hot dog when he passes out after almost being run over by Elisa's car (I am *not* making this up), or a small booklet accompanied by stamps of "Gargoyles" characters in which the gargoyles stuffed Xanatos into the lions' cage at the zoo (I'm not making this up either; I used to have it, but donated it to the 2001 Gathering).

And although I haven't seen it, I've read about a "Where's Waldo"-type Gargoyles book which included things like Goliath and Hudson playing video games (the trio, I can easily imagine doing that, but not Goliath and Hudson).

Todd Jensen

BROOK> Unless your real name is Greg Weisman, I don't think it's your place to say what Katana is SUPPOSED to look like.

She's a Tengu, not an Oni!

And she does not look like Brooklyn.

Greg Bishansky
"Genetic engineering helps us correct God's horrible mistakes... like German people." - Mr. Garrison

Oh, and, KATANA is meant to look like an ONI, not like Brooklyn.
Brook
I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

Oh, and also:

[SPOILER] Surprise over Katana's appearance has largely come from DeviantART, where a lot of posters apparently expected something else. Whether they think it's a good or a bad thing varies widely, but it's where the,
"She looks too much like Brooklyn" stuff was coming from. [/SPOILER]

Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even dragonflies and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream."--Shirley Jackson

Well, I've opened up the worm can....

[SPOILER] I look at Gargoyles in all aspects, including its art and design, from both a real-world and in-story standpoint.

From an in-story standpoint, how a gargoyle couple looks probably isn't a big deal for them or the people observing. Brooklyn could have ended up with anybody, humanoid, beaked, tusked, etc.

But we're discussing a real-world standpoint, from the point of view of Gargoyles as fiction, where we can bring in issues such as the diversity we want to see, and the implications of that.

My beef with HF/BM pairings has entirely to do with how it relates to a real-world perspective, not how it relates to gargoyles as living, breathing, beings. It's NOT "beauty and the beast" from a small-g gargoyles' viewpoint, but it looks like that when it's a work of fiction, made by humans, depicting gargoyles that way. It's only from the latter viewpoint that you can talk about double standards and a lack of female diversity among Disney gargoyles.

And especially in light of Greg admitting he likes having gargoyles resemble their same-sex parent, I'm glad Katana is beaked. The HF/BM gargoyle juxtaposition is all over fandom, and I'd like it not to be repeated so often.

Also, Katana doesn't really look that much like Brooklyn to me. Her beak is shorter, more falcon-like, and her wing structure, horn structure, and digit structure are all different from his, not to mention she has knee spurs.

I will, however, agree that blue was a poor choice for her colour scheme in light of Angela and Demona already having similar shades. [/SPOILER]

Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even dragonflies and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream."--Shirley Jackson

[SPOILER] ......Kay. [/SPOILER]
Harlan Phoenix

Phoenician > Thanks. I intended it to be funny, I'm glad you got a kick out of it.

Greg > Nope.

Harlan > [SPOILER] We've not yet seen a gargoyle couple with a non-humanoid female and a humanoid male, so yes, it would indeed be "progressive" to show such a couple. Would it be "progressive" on the part of the gargoyle couple involved? No, it would be business-as-usual for them. They wouldn't care less. But this is fiction, after all, and none of these characters really exist in real life. It would be progressive to show such a pairing in a fictional medium, because such pairings are extremely rare, compared to non-humanoid male + humanoid female pairings. [/SPOILER]

Rebel

Rebel -- I figured as much, but someone had to say it :) That paragraph was (intentionally or not) funnily written, and I actually cracked up upon reading Goliath's non-options (I actually had to read it to my room-mate, a fellow Gargoyles fan) d:
Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible . . . I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka

[SPOILER] Rebel>Thank you for proving my point. You're looking at it from a very human perspective and all the notions of being "progressive" and such make absolutely no sense. [/SPOILER]
Harlan Phoenix

Sorry for the double.

[SPOILER] Harlan > "My whole thing is, to a gargoyle, I really doubt a beak is an even vaguely interesting physical feature, or no more interesting than any other feature."

Perhaps, but I'm not a gargoyle, am I? [/SPOILER]

Rebel

[SPOILER] Progressive couple? What is there to progress in gargoyle culture? [/SPOILER]
Harlan Phoenix

Rebel> Superficial much?
Greg Bishansky

*sigh*

[SPOILER] Harlan > In "Bushido", there were a number of non-cool-colored Gargoyles in the Ishimura clan.

And I think giving Sacrifice a beak would have been interesting because then we'd have had a standard, humanoid male with a non-humanoid female. They would have been the most progressive-looking gargoyle couple in Gargoyles, and would have entirely subverted the standard "beauty and the beast" model, wherein the male (regardless of how he looks) gets the gorgeous, human-looking female. [/SPOILER]

Rebel

Also, sorry for the double post, but my forum habits got the better of me and I, for some reason, ended my post with a quote tag instead of a spoiler tag. If that could be fixed...? I apologize for that.
Harlan Phoenix

[SPOILER]Maybe she's cool colored because...the common Ishimura color scheme is cool-colored.

Just throwing that out there.

And Sacrifice having a beak or not would not have been any more or less interesting than the design she has now. My whole thing is, to a gargoyle, I really doubt a beak is an even vaguely interesting physical feature, or no more interesting than any other feature.[/QUOTE]

Harlan Phoenix

Sorry for the double

Personally I would like it if we could just drop the discussion about Katana's design. Obviously we disagree, and we all have perfectly valid reasons for feeling the way we do. I say we leave it at that.

Brook > There are some comments on deviantart from people who are surprised/disappointed that [SPOILER] Katana has a beak [/SPOILER], or who are disappointed with other aspects of her design. The response from the CR has been almost entirely positive, but this isn't the only place where Gargoyles fans talk about Gargoyles.

Rebel

[SPOILER] Harlan > Katana is the same age as Brooklyn, and should visually look to be about the equivalent of a 40 year old woman. However, in the comics, she looks like a teenager. That bugs me. And furthermore, I don't dislike Katana's design just for her beak. I've mentioned several reason why I dislike it--the beak is just one of them. There are some things I like about Katana's design--for example, her clothes and weapon. But physically, there's not a lot that I like about her, except maybe the reduced digits.

Incisivis > "Meh. I'd rather Katana be beaked that Sacrifice, because Sacrifice just up and died, while there is a slim chance that we might get more stories with Katana."

Then perhaps you can understand part of the reason why I feel the way I do. I know you were excited about the possibility of a beaked female, but I really didn't care--I was much more excited about the possibility of a web-winged female. Then we finally got Sacrifice, and she's not part of the main cast, and now she's dead...great. If both a beaked female and a web-winged female were going to be added to the canon, I'd have rather Katana been the web-winged one, since she would have lived on and been in more stories.

And, if Katana hadn't had a beak, that doesn't mean she'd be visually "boring" compared to the others. If she'd had a different wing structure, that would have been interesting enough for me, in and of itself. Plus, the color chosen for her is fairly boring, since we've had so many cool-colored females already. Also, she could have had a whole other face type besides a beak or a humanoid face. There are lots of different possibilities besides just having a beak, or having a human face. Merely lacking a beak wouldn't make her boring, but the fact that she has a beak does make her a little boring to me because her design now looks so similar to Brooklyn's. [/SPOILER]

Rebel

Brook> Are...you trying to make gum?
Harlan Phoenix

Dang, forgot the spoiler tags down there... :( Gore, please...?
Brook
I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

@ Greg B: just copy&pasted this and pitched it to a studio. They're quite amazed, say I might get a primetime spot. So, yeah, here's a picture of a package of Maoams: http://www.bild.de/BILD/news/2009/08/27/maoam-packung-zeigt-heisse-fruechtchen/maoam-zitrone-13223495-mfbq,templateId=renderScaled,property=Bild,height=349.jpg

As for Katana... I'm really surprised how people can say that the fandom would have preferred to see Katana w/o a beak, since everybody except Rebel and me really seem to like it. And I don#t object so much with the beak as with her entire design...

Brook
I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

[SPOILER] Also, the whole notion of Sacrifice should have a beak doesn't make sense to me. What is it about the beak that makes it fit for some sort of comment on attractiveness? Maybe some Gargs dig the beak, regardless of beak or beaked status. [/SPOILER]
Harlan Phoenix

I still think this whole "pressure them into mating" thing reeks of fascism, and I hope we never see it in the canon... unless, as Demonskrye said, it's to cover up nausea of Goliath taking a human mate.

Still, between this and Lex's sexuality, it's just... well, it makes me very uncomfortable. This show is called "Gargoyles", not "Fascists."

Hmmm....

Sixty-five years ago, anti-semeticism and the gun ruled.
It was a time of poverty, it was a world of bigotry.
It was the age of Fascists

Jerks by day, dick heads by night
We were steam rolled by the Nazis we sought to inspire.
Now hanging upside down in the town square
Bricks are being thrown, and THEY'RE PISSING ON ME!

We ruin the world by removing free choice.
WE ARE FASCISTS!

....

Sorry, I could not resist.

;)

Greg Bishansky

[SPOILER] Rebel>I don't see how Katana looking young is much of an issue. We might be able to assume Brooklyn fought the Spawn Space before meeting Katana...we don't know when he met Katana nor do we know how long she traveled with him (Gnash's age at LEAST...granted)...I bring the Space Spawn thing as a likely candidate to suggest that Brook's TimeDancing MAY, in fact, have put him under more strenuous conflicts. Amidst the stresses of time travel (AND knowing you'll probably have to bust some heads when you get to any location) along with not much of a family to go back to until Katana shows herself, I can imagine Brooklyn aging a bit like milk to Katana's wine, if you wanted to go that realm of thinking.

And the idea of disliking Katana's design for her beak just strikes me as...weird in a series where what's inside is most important. Granted, it's nice to have characters look cool, but when I saw Katana, I didn't notice her beak as much as I noticed her kimono and the WAY she looked, not HOW she looked. I thought those were far more interesting features. Noticing the beak was largely an aftereffect. Why focus on how much you don't like about the beak when you can appreciate all the things about Katana that hint about the type of gargoyle she is? That, and I just personally think the beak works, but I hardly consider it her defining feature.

Besides, Katana was a character in the making for over a decade. I'm content with the idea that each aspect of her design was given with utmost care and purpose. I think she looks excellent. And I also don't think the beak is what defines her design. [/SPOILER]

Harlan Phoenix

And for what it's worth, I wrote this before I saw Rebel's latest post.
Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even dragonflies and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream."--Shirley Jackson

Pressure to breed>Well, I can see both sides of the issue here, but a lot of gargoyles would be smart enough to know that forced breeding of any kind isn't a good thing to build a stable group on, even if the children of such unions would be raised by the whole clan.

While I don't like the fanon idea that gargoyles would have access to the technology for international clan travel within a few decades of the current timeframe, what about the future? Would gargoyle populations from different clans decided to meet and possibly breed with each other if they were able? I'm not talking about something like the gathering of eggs for the Liberty Clan, thought that's a similar idea.

[SPOILER] Meh. I'd rather Katana be beaked that Sacrifice, because Sacrifice just up and died, while there is a slim chance that we might get more stories with Katana. If I have to get rid of a more visually subversive pairing for that to happen, than so be it.

That, and the female section of the Manhattan clan would be far too visually boring if Katana looked like her fanon counterparts, and we had yet another humanoid-faced female gargoyle. And while I know the fandom really likes humanoid-faced female gargoyles mated or related to beaked males, it's been done in canon already and I'd hate to see that same visual retreaded and retreaded. [/SPOILER]

Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even dragonflies and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream."--Shirley Jackson

[SPOILER] Harlan > I posted my thoughts on Katana's design several weeks ago after I first read CBV2. There's several things I don't like about it, one of which is the fact that she has a beak--I don't have an issue with beaked females, but I didn't want Katana to have a beak, since Brooklyn has a beak too, plus it leaves little ambiguity about what Tachi will look like. I also don't like the fact that she is yet another "cool-colored" female, when we've already had so many of those. Plus, I don't like the fact that she looks so young, when she's supposed to look about Brooklyn's age.

Anyway, I wouldn't be discussing all this now, since it was a dead topic, but Incisivis brought it back up in a way suggested that the only reason people might want Katana to have a humanoid face, or a non-beaked face, is due to a desire to have Katana be more like her fanon counterparts, which I found insulting. So that's why I've been reiterating why I don't really like Katana's design.

I'm not trying to suggest that there's any inherent FLAW in her design, or the choices behind it, and I'm not trying to make people agree with me. I'm just explaining MY OWN reaction to it, and why I feel the way I do. I have no issue with people who like Katana's design, but I do take issue when someone insinuates that my opinion is based on fanon, or that my opinion stems from a desire to have a pretty, humanoid female mate with a less-humanoid male, ala "beauty and the beast".

I'm perfectly fine with agreeing to disagree, and everyone respecting everyone else's opinion. You like that Katana has a beak? Great! I don't, and I'm entitled to my differing opinion without having someone insinuate false things about the root of my opinion. [/SPOILER]

Rebel

Greg B> I agree, I don't see what the big deal is either. In fact, I kind of expected her to have a beak.
Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
Loooong story...some of it even true--Brooklyn

Katana is fine, I don't get what the big deal is.
Greg Bishansky

[SPOILER] Someone explain to me the big deal about Katana having a beak? [/SPOILER]
Harlan Phoenix

[SPOILER] Incisivis > "I don't see fans asking for Katana to have any kind of less popular-with-fandom gargoyle features in place of her beak, though. It all seems to come down to her being humanoid or beak-faced."

For her to have a humanoid face is the option I would have preferred the most, hence why I mention that the most. But I still would have preferred other, non-humanoid, non-beaked options over her having a beak.

Incidentally, I see a missed opportunity with the character of Sacrifice. If Sacrifice had been the one with a beak instead of Katana, that would have done even more to distance Gargoyles away from the "beauty and the beast" notion, that the guy always gets the hot, human-looking chick, because for the first time we would have had a beaked female with a non-beaked male, which, in my opinion, would have been even better than having two beaked gargoyles together.
[/SPOILER]

Rebel

Goliath would feel insulted, but Elisa becoming a second Kenneth Pinyan is likely what people would see her as.

[SPOILER] And I LOVE Katana's design. [/SPOILER]

Harlan Phoenix

Todd> Yeah, that's a real piece of Gargoyles merchandise...I actually have one that I bought at a Gathering a few years back...either the 07' or 09' Gathering.
Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
Loooong story...some of it even true--Brooklyn

Phoenician > Yeah, I'm aware of that :/. I wasn't saying she wasn't spoken for--but the fact that she's mechanical makes her largely irrelevant when it comes to making more gargoyle eggs.
Rebel

Again, sorry for the double post, but I noticed in the chat room someone mentioning a "Disney talking Goliath bank". Was this a real piece of Gargoyles merchandise? (It seems an odd choice, in light of Goliath's view of money as a purely human concern and not a gargoyle concern - but that's merchandisers for you.)
Todd Jensen

I mentioned earlier that I sent a report on King Arthur's appearance in "Gargoyles: Clan-Building" to "Camelot in Four Colors", a web-site about King Arthur in the comics. A few days ago, the site's webmaster put up an entry for "Gargoyles" and King Arthur's involvement in the Stone of Destiny story; it even had a link to an article on Arthur on an old Gargoyles Encyclopedia from several years ago. I e-mailed the webmaster thanking him for it, but suggesting that he change the link to the article on King Arthur in the GargWiki, since it's more up-to-date; I just heard back from him, thanking me for it and saying that he'll make the change.
Todd Jensen

Carmen> There are currently no plans for a "Gargoyles" movie. There were plans years ago for a live-action film, but it never got past the early development stages. Right now, the best way to get more "Gargoyles" stories is to buy the trade paperback collections of the comics, if you haven't already.
Demonskrye - [<---"Snow White" Part Three at The Ink and Pixel Club]

Sorry for the double post, but now I've begun to wonder what the gargoyles (assuming that any of them pay attention to the financial news - which doesn't seem that likely) must have made of the mention of bears and bulls on Wall Street.
Todd Jensen

Incidentally, as long as we're on the subject of humans and horses - that story about Catherine the Great is just as inaccurate as Shakespeare's claim that Macbeth murdered Duncan in his sleep. I just thought I should make that clear.
Todd Jensen

Todd > Hagar is a nice guy for a Viking, he asks for the stuff to be handed over before going through the trouble of sacking the castle. What if the clan heard that on Sunday afternoon, the Vikings would be battling the Giants? :P

Greg B. > I never said the laws of biology weren't fast and loose in the "Star Trek" universe. My point is that Goliath and Elisa, while they are of different species, are both intelligent beings capable of making their own choices. It's insulting to Goliath to compare him to a horse.

Patrick - [<-- Gathering T-shirt Clearance Sale]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

I subscribe to an e-mail list from the Old Farmer's Almanac that discusses various upcoming holidays, natural events, and things like that; the latest e-mail that arrived in my inbox this morning included a mention of Leif Ericson Day (tomorrow, October 9). And I wondered what the gargoyles would think of a holiday to commemmorate a Viking (though it's a little-known holiday that could easily escape their attention, and Leif was a different kind of Viking than the one who sacked Castle Wyvern).

For that matter, I wonder what Goliath and his clan must have made of the "Hagar the Horrible" comic strip if they read the newspaper funnies (it's possible that Broadway and Hudson, at least, might have read them when learning how to read - we know that they were reading the regular newspaper as part of that) - the portrayal of a Viking pillager as a comical hen-pecked dimwit might seem insensitive to the gargoyles, after the Wyvern Massacre. (And now I had a vision of Lexington sending an indignant letter or e-mail to the newspapers about it - Lexington somehow seems the most likely to write a letter to the editor, I think - though I hope he wouldn't be too specific about his reasons for protesting.)

The talk about people and horses reminded me of a scene in a "Pinky and the Brain" episode where Pinky shows another mouse (I think it was in a parody of "The Third Man") a photograph of a horse whom he's fallen in love with. When the other mouse says in astonishment "You're a mouse; this is a horse", Pinky says "People are so intolerant."

Todd Jensen

when is there gonna be a gargoyles movie
Carmen - [mmbowwow at yahoo dot com]
Carmellita

Rebel -- And Coldfire's spoken for too d:
Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible . . . I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka

The Avalon Clan, at least, has two more male than female gargoyles. (17 vs. 15. I consider Angela part of the Manhattan Clan rather than the Avalon Clan.) Of course that doesn't say anything about any other clans, and I suppose that there could just as easily be two more females than males in any other clan.
Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]

I think there might be Gargoyles out there who would criticize Goliath for not siring more eggs, [/u]if[/u] there were available female gargoyles living near Manhattan, searching for mates. But the only female Gargoyles around are Delilah, Angela, Katana, Coldfire, and Demona, all of whom are either spoken for, mechanical, or Demona.

The Manhattan and Labyrinth clans are mostly sausage fests, but in the other clans around the world, chances are there are probably a roughly equal number of males and females in each clan. In any given rookery, I suspect that almost every female gargoyle has a mate--there might be the odd gay female or perhaps a rookery with two many females (and one or two end up without mates), but it's not like there's some untapped treasure trove of gargoyle ladies just begging for Goliath's man-meat.

If there were, then perhaps Goliath might face criticism from other gargoyles for choosing a human mate instead of a gargoyle one (if he's going to take another mate, which is fairly unusual). But since that's not the case, I don't see it being an issue.

Rebel

IGN has a glowing review up on the new Spidey episode from tonight: http://tv.ign.com/articles/103/1032885p1.html I hope they restart their weekly Greg interviews too.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Demonskrye> "I think this is a bad idea because I'm a bigot."

- LOL, okay, that cracked me up.

I keep wondering where everyone keeps throwing around this idea that gargoyles are an endangered species on the verge of extinction. Their numbers took a major dive after humans developed tools, sure, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that their numbers have remained somewhat stable for the past couple hundred years since all remaining clans have gone into hiding. The fact that these clans have survived to the modern day and probably completely isolated from each other means that all of them are biologically viable, capable of surviving. It also wouldn't surprise me if other clans have had to limit the number of eggs they parent in order to keep their numbers low. If the London Clan is any indication, most of the remaining clans could have a couple hundred members. Now, while obviously a world population under 10,000 is nothing compared to humans, it is not too shabby either. And as soon as the Gargoyle Nation jointly decides to really start building their numbers and all those gargoyles start laying a third egg, we'll see growth really happen.

Now, beasts on the other hand are in bad shape. It seems few clans have many, if any, and were it not for the Xanadu Clan, I suspect they would almost inevitably be heading for extinction.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" -Sevarius, 'Louse'

I seem to be posting a lot lately.

Patrick> Agreed, but it's not the same thing as an interracial couple either. It's somewhere inbetween, closer to Spock's parents than anything in the real world, as you mentioned. But i don't think it's going to stop some members of both species of thinking that it's closer to a guy and his horse than two people of different ethnicities. Greg W has said that human-gargoyle couples are extremely rare throughout history, so I don't see it becoming more common as time does on and humans grow more accustomed to gargoyles.

Demonskrye - [<---"Snow White" Part Three at The Ink and Pixel Club]

PATRICK> And in "Star Trek" you can also breed cats with dogs.

Goliath and Elisa are not biologically compatible like that, so I don't think that analogy works either.

Greg Bishansky

But a human and a gargoyle being together is NOT like a human and a horse being together. Getting past the misconceptions that may exist at first among some humans that gargoyles are "dumb animals", the fact is that they are NOT. There is nothing currently within the shared experiences of modern humankind that is comparable. Modern humans have never encountered another species of beings with intelligence comparable to our own. We would have to back to the time of the last ice age to find homo sapiens interacting with Neanderthals, or look to works of science fiction to find any analogy that is valid. Elisa and Goliath have much more in common with Amanda Grayson and Sarek than the infamous Youtube person and his horse.
Patrick - [<-- Gathering T-shirt Clearance Sale]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

"Are you sure you can't patch things up with Demona?" sounds like a worthy contender for First Prize in the "Most Naive Question of the Year" competition.
Todd Jensen

Greg B> But I don't think any gargoyle is going to come right out and say "I think this is a bad idea because I'm a bigot." Some might admit that they don't like the idea of a human-gargoyle couple because they don't like humans for what they think are very good reasons. Members of the New Olympus Clan seem like particularly good candidates for that viewpoint. But others may be so subtly anti-human that they don't even quite recognize it themselves, and possibly make the argument not in terms of "humans are bad," but something a little less direct. "We're an endangered species - even more so now that the humans know about us. We need every egg we can get." "You know, Goliath, the world's smaller than it used to be. Just because you haven't found the gargoyle for you yet doesn't mean you never will." "Are you sure you can't patch things up with Demona?"
Demonskrye - [<---"Snow White" Part Three at The Ink and Pixel Club]

Greg once said that he thought that Goliath himself, when he became aware of his feelings for Elisa, felt uneasy about it - partly because he didn't think he should be falling in love with someone other than Demona (even if they were no longer a couple) and partly because Elisa was a human.

Goliath and his clan can point out, if other gargoyles express their uneasiness at Goliath falling in love with a member of a species that has brought their people to the brink of extinction, that Elisa's been a loyal friend - though since it didn't reassure the New Olympians, I don't know how much good that will do. It might be difficult for the gargoyles disapproving of Goliath and Elisa's relationship to argue much about that; while there've been plenty of humans who hated gargoyles and even went out to kill them, they generally made no attempt to conceal their hatred; Hakon, Constantine, Gillecomgain, Duncan, Canmore and the rest made it clear that they hated gargoyles. The Captain of the Guard, a pro-gargoyle human, helped bring about the Wyvern massacre, on the other hand (though ironically, he did so in an attempt to help the clan). More recently, Xanatos and the Pack both pretended to befriend the gargoyles for their schemes, so there might be some precedent for other clans to cite - but I suspect that most of the other gargoyle massacres in history were carried out by humans who made it open that they didn't like gargoyles, rather than "false friends". (Demona talks a lot about treacherous humans, but I suspect that most of that comes from her projecting her own past acts of betrayal on the human race rather than admit her responsibility for those same acts.)

Incidentally, I was watching "Shadows of the Past" on DVD today, and noted that near the beginning, when Goliath and the others come to the spot where Castle Wyvern once stood, there's a brief scene with a lizard crawling over a bare rock. I should do some research to find out if there really are any lizards in Scotland or not.

Todd Jensen

sorry for the test earlier.. my library computer can be a pain at times..

yeah, I was just wondering what Coldstone would think of G and E's relationship.. Coldfire might be o.k with it.. but not sure about C.stone.. who knows about Coldsteel..

I doubt he'd have a problem with Lex though.. it's possible there may have been Gay Gargoyles in the tenth century..


[SPOILER] I'm fine with Katana's design.. though I wasn't expecting her to be that light of a color.. pretty cool though.. as far as non-humanoid garg mates.. well, look at Leo and Una ;).. and who knows about Griff and Constance..:) [/SPOILER]

starlioness - [starlion3 at yahoo dot com]

test..
starlioness - [starlion3 at yahoo dot com]

Some random thoughts:

- Demona letting the vial fall in front of her would be one big badass scene, but I think she loves her kind too much to kill it.

- We don't need that fascist groove thing!

- Gargoyles, well... they surely should breed, cause they're near extinction. I mean, like, is there anything standing against it? I don't think they need to be pushed though...

- Katana... [SPOILER] Personally... I just don't like her looks. It's not the beak... I dunno, it's the same as with Duval... I just don't "feel it"... Before it came it, I thought to myself for a long long time, "Geez, the most boring thing IMO they could come up with would be another beaked female." And, well... I dunno, I just don't like the design, especially considering how they could have stretched the japanese theme... and even though she does look like an Oni (sort of) it doesn't add up... somehow... I dunno, just not my kinda design... [/SPOILER]

Brook
I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

Just to be clear, I was not calling anyone in here a fascist. Just saying that that line of thinking just felt wrong to me. But then, it's supposed to.

It bothers me more when people bring up in regards to Lex though. But I highly doubt Lex is the only gay gargoyle alive. I don't think of gargoyles as these perfect, angelic beings at all. But of all their vices, I don't think homophobia would be one of them. It exists in the natural world. The only people who oppose it do it because they read the Old Testament wrong.

As for Goliath and Elisa. I am quite sure that there are many gargoyles that would not approve. But the idea that they wouldn't approve out of a responsibility to sire eggs is not a reason that entered my head. The reasoning, I'd think would be, well, bigotry. I definitely don't think gargoyles are immune to it.

As has been said, the gargoyles in the Manhattan Clan know and love both Goliath and Elisa and have been aware of all that since, probably before Goliath and Elisa.

I don't think the gargoyles outside of, maybe the Avalon Clan, were around either of them long enough to see it.

But, I tend to think some of them would react to it in the same way any of us would react to a friend of ours making it with a horse (ugh... that video traumatizes me even to this day).

I definitely agree with those who think Coldstone would have a problem with it. I mean, out of all the members of the Manhattan Clan now, Coldstone seems to be the most, well, unpleasant of them. To say the least.

Greg Bishansky

GREG B> It is indeed a rather cold-blooded concept, as though mating had no other meaning for gargoyles then plopping out as many eggs as possible. Though it does make sense from a cold purely social Darwinist point of view seeing as how the species is on the verge of extinction. But then who in their right mind would want to live in a society ruled by social Darwinist principles? They tried that back in 1940s germany and it didn't turn out so good.

N.B. I'm of course not refering to Darwinism as the term is used in actual evolutionary biology, mearly the twisted ideology that claims to be based on it.

Algernon

First and foremost, I fully believe that Goliath and Elisa should be together and that Lex should be able to mate with whoever he wants, regardless of gender.

The reason I am in favor of showing some gargoyles who are not okay with either or both of these pairings is that it bores and annoys me to know end when any character - let alone an entire species - is always right and open-minded and just about perfect in every situation. I can believe that the particularities of gargoyle culture helped them to avoid some of our failings as a species, but the whole species can't be without foibles of its own. The fact that they were all but wiped out by humans has to have some effect and I doubt that Demona is going to be the only gargoyle who thinks that humans are more trouble than they're worth. I really want to see some gargoyles who come down on the "wrong" side of this and other issues, including some who don't change their thinking in the space of an episode or an issue of the comic.

Since the worldwide gargoyle population is currently pretty small, it occurred to me that one criticism that might be leveled against Goliath and Lex by some (not most) gargoyles is that they have a responsibility to father eggs. Again, this is not something I personally agree with. It also may not have any merit. I'm not good enough with either math or the science of population growth to figure out how much of a difference three eggs would make for future generations. But it seemed to me like something that might come up. Maybe it won't. I won't be crushed if it doesn't. It was just a thought and I don't seem to be the only person it's occurred to.

Demonskrye - [<---"Snow White" Part Three at The Ink and Pixel Club]

You know, just an observation. But, the only place I have ever seen this, I'm sorry, fascist attitude of "gargoyles must breed" is from fans and in fanfiction. We haven't seen any of it in canon, and I don't think Greg has mentioned it either.

It usually comes up when the topic of Lex's sexuality comes up. Sometimes with Goliath and Elisa.

Still, the whole thing just seems kind of, well, as I said, fascist.

Am I reading "Gargoyles" or "The Handmaid's Tale"?

Greg Bishansky

I wonder if, given enough time for naturalists to take interest, it'd become equally likely that pressure of the "gargoyles need to breed!" variety would begin coming from the same human organizations that spend lots of time and money on breeding programs for other low population species like the giant panda and the California condor.
Patrick - [<-- Gathering T-shirt Clearance Sale]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

It does get easier to find female supervillains the further out you go from a strict comic book hero universe. Even though 'Gargoyles' has a strong dose of superhero in its make-up, it's a different kind of world from Marvel and DC and it's a matter of judgment as to where you draw the line.

Magica De Spell... She's a supervillain, but then she's not facing superheroes. I like to think she counts because I heart Carl Barks but it's all a matter of interpretation.

And Glory from Buffy was facing a superhero but not in comics. I think the Buffy comics will be worth looking at for new female supervillains but even then you could argue definitions.

I think there are a few more who have the potential to be A-List with a push. Goldilocks from "Fables" particularly springs to mind.

There's also Image's Bomb Queen and Hellboy's Baba Yaga. I don't know much about them except that they exist.

The main character besides Demona I'd champion is Maligna from the Archie Turtles series of the 90s and its spin-off, 'The Mighty Mutanimals'. A monstrous insectoid warlord, Queen of a Hive World.

She was only in three arcs, and the major villain in two, but her machinations always affected the comic a long time before she was physically on stage. In the first run she made a deal to support Krang in exchange for the co-ordinates of Earth, a deal he reneged on. In her second arc she bought the Earth from her business partner Null and hatched her larvae in the rainforest to eat away the planet's lungs ahead of full-scale invasion. In her third arc she was out for revenge and was finally stopped when Slash drove her hive world into the sun. She was particularly deadly for the Mutanimals: they formed to defeat her and succeeded, so when she returned the first thing she did was kill them in a surprise attack. The Turtles of 100 years hence travelled back in time to try and stop her -- and failed.

Although she's not got the complexity of Demona, she's probably a more traditional comics supervillain. Insane, bloodthirsty, powerful, Machiavellian, totally evil and with a serious bodycount of heroes to her name. I'd happily place her in a list alongside Galactus or the Green Goblin except that the comic was axed 14 years ago and to my knowledge nobody else has run with the character. A Mutanimals cartoon was pitched but not greenlit. A TPB finale has long been mooted where she'd make an appearance but that hasn't happened yet. Shame. If she could cross over to Marvel or DC she'd be a joy.

Also, her design certainly certainly makes an impression:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3400/3253318455_1eb6f09d2a.jpg

Ed

PAUL> Dude, re-read that. I don't think it could be any clearer. It would depend a lot on Demona's intent.

Keep in mind that magic is not an exact science.

Greg Bishansky

Does that mean that the spell that links Demona to Macbeth is stronger than the praying gargoyle's magic, then?

And what would happen to the praying gargoyle?

Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]

I would first think that Demona's ideal would be to survive the plague, with or without Macbeth having fallen. Despite her lofty goals, fundamentally she's selfish, and would have liked to see the fruits of her labours.

But *could* she sacrifice herself, if it meant absolute fulfillment of her wishes? I think so, yes. Almost. Mostly. :) It's such a thin line that the factors of the exact situation would need to be considered.

[SPOILER] I don't see fans asking for Katana to have any kind of less popular-with-fandom gargoyle features in place of her beak, though. It all seems to come down to her being humanoid or beak-faced. [/SPOILER]

Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even dragonflies and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream."--Shirley Jackson

PAUL, I asked Greg that question years ago. His response.

***

Good question. Keep in mind that magic isn't an exact science. The Weird Sisters told Macbeth and Demona that "When one lives both live." Demona used the magic Praying Gargoyle statue to insure she would survive the fullfillment spell. So would Macbeth have survived? Probably. She knows about the mortality link. She would not want his death at her hands if that resulted in her own. Towards Macbeth, her impulse should not be murderous by necessity. And mindset has a real effect on magic results. However, Demona isn't the most stable and rational of characters. She certainly has murderous feelings toward Macbeth. And if their linking spell "perceived" the death of all humanity as a successful attempt to kill Macbeth, then it might very well have killed her as well. Did she consider this? Maybe.

Maybe it was a risk she was willing, even eager to take. Maybe somewhere underneath it all, she's a bit suicidal. Could she die with the idea of leaving behind a human-free "paradise" where her daughter could live in safety? Remember, Moses led the Israelites to the Promised Land, but he was not allowed to enter it himself. Maybe that's how Demona felt about it.

Then again, maybe not. Very provocative question.

***

http://s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=489

You're kind of a compulsive nitpicker, aren't you? ;)

Greg Bishansky

All this talk about Demona and Operation Clean Slate has had me wondering: Suppose it had gone perfectly according to plan: All of the humans were wiped out, and the praying gargoyle had saved everyone that Demona had wanted to save...

Except for one thing: Macbeth is a human, and thus the plague had killed him too.

1. Given that Demona caused the plague, would it have killed Macbeth permanently?

2. If it did kill Macbeth permanently, would the praying gargoyle have been enough to prevent Demona's permanent death?

Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]

[SPOILER] There are many variations on faces within the Gargoyle species besides just having a humanoid face, or having a beaked face. Katana could still have had a non-humanoid face, while also not having a beak. Their pairing didn't have to be a "beauty and the beast" type pairing--Katana could have easily had a simian face like Broadway or Lexington, or a long nose like that Gargoyle from City of Stone and #10-#12, or a muzzle, or any of the other types of faces we've seen gargoyles have. [/SPOILER]
Rebel

Supervillains: I think the reason we don't have a top-tier female supervillain, or many, is that media as a body tends to idealize female characters.

So a female can't be a huge and terrible villain beyond redemption: she must be motivated by tragedy, or pain. She can't just be evil because she wants to. And a lot of great villains are like that: so very bad, but so very good at it that they become cool and you forget about all those pesky things like complex morality. :)

It's hard for many to imagine a woman in that basically hedonistic role, because women are supposed to be demure and self-sacrificing and the "nannies" who must reign in the fun-loving men. It's a sitcom dynamic reflected in comic books.

Demona has a bit of both in her, but she somehow manages not to be just a "poor her" villain, because she pulls so much terrible things..

[SPOILER] I think Malibu and Delilah are good enough as a juxtaposition of radically physically different gargoyles. Especially since, if it's human viewers projecting onto them, they'll see pairings like Malibu and Delilah as "beast and beauty", and that kind of arrangement isn't really in any way progressive despite how the media likes to sell it, because it's all about males of whatever appearance getting the hot chick, with no variation.

So I think any feel that it sends a wrong message is a little off, because modern fiction is already all about the guy getting the hot chick. And we've seen no evidence of looksism among gargoyles outside of fanon, so Brooklyn isn't exactly hurting in that regard.

And if we then repeated the beaked male/humanoid female over and over with Brooklyn and Katana, we really wouldn't get anywhere. The designs would just be repeating themselves.

From a gargoyle perspective, of course it'd be no big deal who mates with who and what they look like, but I'm asking from the viewpoint of the human viewers.

What I'd *really* like to see is a non-humanoid female gargoyle paired up with a humanoid male gargoyle.

And there's something to be said for the appeal of symmetry, which is common in a lot of couples. [/SPOILER]

Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]

Sorry, I just noticed a major typo in one of my previous posts:

"...compared to how gay humans are treated by gay humans)."

--SHOULD say:

"...compared to how gay humans are treated by humans)."

Most of you probably figured out my mistake without me needing to point it out, but I figured I'd clarify just in case.

Rebel

Matt> Rebel said it quite well. I think the vast majority of gargoyles who actually get to know Elisa and Goliath will not have a problem with their relationship. As I see it, the problems will probably arise with gargoyles who haven't met either of them and just hear about their relationship. I'm guessing that if you asked any random gargoyle "How would you feel about a gargoyle taking a human as a mate?" the average reaction would be pretty hesitant, at best. But gargoyles who already know Goliath or Goliath and Elisa and then find out that they're a couple will probably take less issue with it. Griff, for example, may not know Elisa very well, but he knows that Goliath is a good guy who saved his life and brought him back to his clan. So when he finds out about Goliath and Elisa, his previous experiences with Goliath will probably result in him feeling more open to the idea. But when you have gargoyles who hear about Goliath and Elisa being together without meeting either of them, their feelings about the appropriateness of such a paring will color their initial reactions and possibly continue to influence their feelings when they actually do meet Goliath and/or Elisa. They may not openly object, but it may be clear that they don't care for the idea.

Rebel> My personal feeling is that we haven't seen enough of Coldstone to judge his feelings about humans. His most negative comments about our species were made in the 10th century when his clan was being treated pretty badly. We know that he at least agrees with his brother's belief that protection is an essential part of who gargoyles are. We know that he was willing to except help from humans in Tibet and return there again. And he was willing to work alongside Macbeth. So I don't think he harbors deep rooted prejudices. Does that mean he's going to be 100% okay with his brother taking a human mate? Not necessarily. But I don't see him being all that open in his objection and I do think he would come around in time.

Correction> I should have said that there are currently only five gargoyle clans in the world who could be reasonably assumed to know about any of the others. I keep forgetting the Avalon Clan because of their extreme isolation from the rest of the world.

Demonskrye - [<---"Snow White" Part Three at The Ink and Pixel Club]

Sorry for the double.

When I say "gargoyles who know Goliath and Elisa personally", I'm excluding Coldstone. He knows Goliath personally, but he doesn't know Elisa personally. Plus, based on what we saw in Reawakening, I think he's less friendly towards humans than the other gargoyles in his clan. I honestly think he'll take issue with Goliath and Elisa's relationship. When I try to imagine him condoning their relationship, or even being indifferent, it just feels wrong.

Rebel

Of course the gargoyles who know Elisa and Goliath personally probably won't object to their union. They saw their relationship grow organically from friendship to love. They were there, they know both the characters well, the saw the relationship naturally evolve--in short, they understand that Goliath and Elisa belong together, species differences be-damned.

But gargoyles who don't know the two of them well? And especially gargoyles who aren't particularly fond of humans? I can see them thinking there's something wrong with it. They probably wouldn't DO anything about it (unlike humans) because I think gargoyles have a tendency to want to mind their own business when it comes to other people's relationships (judging by how gay gargoyles are treated by other gargoyles, compared to how gay humans are treated by gay humans). But nonetheless, I could easily see some gargoyles taking issue with Goliath and Elisa's relationship, even if they didn't condemn the two of them for being in such a relationship.

Rebel

MATT> Well, Malibu and Delilah seem to prove we can have a beaked male and a non-beaked female.
Greg Bishansky

Incisivis> [SPOILER] My only concern with Katana's design is that it might lead some readers to assume that a beaked male could or would only end up with a beaked female. I'd like to see more beaked males with non-beaked females and vice versa. I have no problem with Katana having a beak and I really like Katana's design, I'm just concerned that both Brook and Katana have beaks, they are a couple and that they are the only beaked adults in the Clan. Anyway, in time we'll see more variations in mated pairs, so I don't sweat it much, just worried about the casual or new viewer reading the comic superficially. [/SPOILER]

Elisa & Goliath> Well, sure the New Olympian Clan for instance MIGHT have an issue with Elisa and Goliath's relationship, but that seems to me to be because they MIGHT have issues with humanity as a whole. I can't see many gargoyles knowing Elisa and Goliath and still having an issue with them being together just on principle. Gargoyles are not perfect anymore than humans are, but gargoyles are not humans with wings. There are differences and I think one of those differences is that they are generally less concerned with appeareances than humans are. I would think that most gargoyles who know Elisa and Goliath would be fine with it. I certainly cannot see any instances of disgust or whatever. Humans I can see being against the coupling on principle, gargoyles I can't. GENERALLY speaking.
What I'm trying to say is that while I wouldn't be surprised if many, even most, humans would have a problem with the relationship, I would be surprised if more than a few gargoyles were troubled by it.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" -Sevarius, 'Louse'

Demonskrye > "The main reason I want to see some gargoyles who aren't happy with Goliath's decision is that I hate the idea of gargoyles being shown as this accepting, tolerant, flawless race with only a few "bad apples" like Demona. I want to see a variety of opinions, some of which we may not agree with. Otherwise, the gargoyle species just becomes too perfect and pretty boring."

I agree wholeheartedly. Gargoyles aren't "humans with wings", but they certainly aren't angels either, nor should they be treated that way.

Incisivis > [SPOILER] Yes, there have been pairings of gargoyles with similar faces before--Goliath and Demona, Yama and Sora, etc. But based on what we've seen so far (excluding the London clan), human/simian faces seem to be much more common than beaked faces. Beaked gargoyles are less common than non-beaked gargoyles. It's not strange to have two human or simian faced gargoyles together, because that seems to be a majority trait, so it's not all that surprising (from a numbers perspective) that two of them would pair up. But to have two beaked characters pair up? It just seems odd because beaks are fairly uncommon. It's almost like the series is suggesting that beaked gargoyles have a preference for one another or something, or that beaked gargoyles are a separate subtype of gargoyles, or that beaks are an unattractive trait and beaked gargoyles aren't "good enough" to mate with non-beaked gargoyles. Of course I know Greg W wasn't trying to suggest that; he just wanted to have more variety amongst female gargoyles. Still, I think there's something weird about the fact that the very first mated gargoyle with a beak, also has a beaked gargoyle for a mate.

It would be like if Lexington's eventual mate had web wings instead of standard wings. Since Lex's wing structure is fairly uncommon, it would seem strange (to me) if his mate had that wing structure too, both from a numbers perspective and because of all the things that it might suggest. [/SPOILER]

Rebel

[SPOILER] Awright, somebody read my review! :P Really, though, I get having a personal preference for the looks of Brooklyn's mate, I'm just wondering why people in particular find it unsettling in the way that they're saying, "They look too much alike"...but most gargoyle couples we've seen in the series *are* of similar types, so what's the big deal about Brooklyn and Katana?

Not to mention that Katana doesn't look all that much like Brooklyn: she's got a shorter beak, different wing structure, knee spurs, different horns, etc. [/SPOILER]


More:

Elisa would try to keep her relationship hidden, but where's the drama in that? :P It might get out, whether she wants it to or not.

Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]

Greg B> Well that's just it: what defines "the superhero genre"? What makes "Gargoyles" and "The Venture Brothers" (I personally think that one is too much of a stretch) part of it where something like "Beowulf" may not be? Mainstream superhero comics, I'll agree there aren't a ton of big threat A-list female supervillains for the exact reason you listed: it's been a boy's game for a long time and not many of the recently created villains of either gender have proved as popular as their classic counterparts. Though now that I think about it, Poison Ivy is considered one of Batman's top foes.

Michael E> I don't think the mutates are quite as optimistic as you are about the ability of humans to accept bizarre phenomena and individual who look different from them. Their own initial horror at their transformation probably gave them a good idea of how most people would react to them. And two of the three mutates now living in the labyrinth were formerly homeless, so they already know about the more unkind aspects of society firsthand.

You're also assuming that they could set up a press conference and not be shot on sight before they even made it to the studio.

At this point, of course, it would be almost impossible for the mutates to reveal themselves to the world and expect acceptance, due to their physical similarities to gargoyles. (That could actually be a possible reason for the "tragic death of Talon and Maggie" scenario: they're killed simply because they look like gargoyles.)

Matt> Will many gargoyles object to Goliath taking a human mate? Probably not. Will some? Almost certainly. Again, they are all individuals who can have some distaste for humans without being the equivalent of Demona or even just feel a little creepy about an interspecies romance, which, again, is not the same as an interracial one. True, the gargoyle population is never going to rival the human population. But at this point, there are only four clans with a reasonable chance of knowing about each other. (I doubt Brooklyn knows whether any of the clans he encountered while timedancing survived or that he's in any hurry to find out.) Combined, they amount to a couple hundred gargoyles and now that the humans know the species exists, they're under greater threat than they have been in years, and keep in mind that most of the Mayan Clan was destroyed just four years earlier in current gargoyles universe time, so the threat of a clan being wiped out is still very real. So in that climate, I could see how keeping the population up might be a concern.

The main reason I want to see some gargoyles who aren't happy with Goliath's decision is that I hate the idea of gargoyles being shown as this accepting, tolerant, flawless race with only a few "bad apples" like Demona. I want to see a variety of opinions, some of which we may not agree with. Otherwise, the gargoyle species just becomes too perfect and pretty boring.

Demonskrye - [<---"Snow White" Part Three at The Ink and Pixel Club]

RE: The Female Supervillain

I think the main problem is that superhero comics haven't yet fully outgrown their original function as male power fantasies. Don't get me wrong, they've made terrific progress over the decades but they're not quite there yet.

I think what we really need are more female creators. How many women are writing superhero comics today who aren't Gail Simone? Not that I'm saying men can't write good female characters, Greg himself has proved that. But I still think more women behind the scenes would go a long way towards balancing thing out on panel.

As long as superhero comics are written mainly by males for males, then characters like Demona are going to remain the exception rather then the rule.

Algernon

MATT - It's likely that there are some gargoyles out there who hate humans for everything that the humans have done to them in the past - not as intensely as Demona (since a lot of Demona's intensity comes from: a) the buried guilt over the Wyvern Massacre and b) an extra-long life span that probably exposed her to even more human hostility than gargoyles could usually expect) - but enough to have little fondness for the species. I can easily imagine the New Olympian gargoyles sharing the New Olympians' prejudice against the human race, for example. I don't know about the Xanadu, Korean, and Loch Ness clans, though.

PATRICK - Demona's broadcast probably lost all its power (even in repeats) after the gargoyles and Xanatos made the sky burn; at least, we didn't see any evidence of it having any effect afterwards.

It's especially appropriate for Demona to have A-villain status, in light of her being a counterpart to Lady Macbeth (who definitely enjoys A-villain status for English literature). It would be a lot of fun to see that story Greg Weisman has mentioned wanting to do about everyone getting trapped in that performance of "Macbeth" with Demona in the Lady Macbeth role (even if it might be considered typecasting for her).

(Speaking of "Macbeth", I recently saw a new book called "Masterpiece Comics", a humorous re-imagining of a lot of classic literature as done by the characters of many famous comics from various periods. It included "Macbeth" with Mary Worth as Lady Macbeth. Other re-imagined comics included Kafka's "Metamorphosis" as done by "Peanuts" with Charlie Brown as Gregor Samsa, the story of Adam and Eve as done by "Blondie" with Mr. Dithers as God and Dagwood and Blondie as Adam and Eve, Dostoyevsky's "Crime and Punishment" with Bruce Wayne/Batman as Raskolnikov and a gender-bent version of the Joker as the pawnbroker, and Marlowe's "Dr. Faustus" as done by "Garfield" with Jon as Faustus and Garfield as Mephistopheles. Weird, but entertaining.)

Todd Jensen

Elisa & Goliath> I just can't see many gargoyles really having an issue with this. Obviously at least a few will, like Demona, but that is for very personal reasons. Now, the idea might strike some gargoyles as odd, but perhaps not inherently BAD. Gargoyles don't seem overly concerned with pretense in my opinion. And they don't seem to enjoy denying their natural urges either. Every gargoyle we know of that knows of Goliath and Elisa's relationship (with the exception of Demona as noted) is fine with it. I imagine nearly all gargoyles elsewhere would be as well. I mean, if Goliath's own clan have no issue with it, why would other clan's worry. That said, I do think it would be interesting if Coldstone or someone else in the clan had an issue, though I doubt they'd ever leave the clan or demand new leadership because of it.
And as for the argument a lot of you are making regarding gargoyles feeling this overwhelming "WE NEED TO BREED" mentality. I don't see that either. We know gargoyle numbers don't compare with human numbers, but they are doing alright for the most part. It seems to me that for these very isolated clans to survive as long as they have they had to have had some solid numbers. We know that the London Clan has actually limited their growth intentionally. Now, the Manhattan Clan is obviously struggling, but that has nothing to do with gargoyles choosing human mates. And, as I noted, the Manhattan Clan members have no issue with Elisa and Goliath despite their low numbers. If the fact that Goliath will father no more gargoyle children doesn't bother them, why would it bother any other gargoyles? Other gargoyles who are doing fine maintaining a population in their own clans.
No, I don't think many gargoyles are going to have issues with Elisa and Goliath.

Elisa> Blaise's comments made me think of a couple things. We know that Elisa doesn't like sharing her secrets, so I doubt she'd EVER go very public about her relationship with Goliath. Even under oath in court or whatever, I can still see her being mostly evasive. Admitting to a strong friendship, but perhaps not love.

And also, does Matt Bluestone know about Goliath and Elisa's relationship at this point?

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" -Sevarius, 'Louse'

Why would Elisa get evicted? Having a top-floor apartment like that on a cop's salary obviously means the place is rent-controlled, and it's nearly impossible to get someone out of a rent-controlled apartment short of feet first in a body bag.
Patrick - [<-- Gathering T-shirt Clearance Sale]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

****A black cat stalks into the Room. It looks around with its bright, green eyes, and then morphs into Blaise.**** I'm changing into black cats, now...Halloween must be approaching.

INCISIVIS> [SPOILER] "Do the roots of fanon really reach so deep that a humanoid-faced mate for Brooklyn was considered an inevitable thing?"
Yeah, pretty much. ;-)
Seriously, though, I intellectually knew that Katana having a beak was a possibility, but I could never quite wrap my head entirely around it. Since Brooklyn was the only beaked gargoyle I saw on a regular basis, I had a hard time imagining a beaked female that wasn't just "Brooklyn with boobs" (yes, I read your blog (or Live-journal) review of CBV2--:-D), and that is an image I DO NOT WANT in my head.
Then, too, I think there is a tendency with Brooklyn-fans to, because he is so "unlucky in love," want to pair him up with "the most beautiful" gargoyle they can imagine. And these people are all human.
So that's why some of us are surprised. Personally, I'm really liking Katana's look so far (Robby Bevard still wants to fine tune the design some, and I look forward to seeing what he does). She is beautiful. And judging from the submissions featuring her on DeviantArt, I'm not the only one that feels that way. [/SPOILER]


PAUL> Well, Demona has shown in the past that she, in fact, does value revenge/hurting the humans more than the safety of her own kind: else why would she help the Hunter/Canmore against Macbeth (thus leaving her clan at his mercy)instead of just taking off with her clan and keeping them out of the "human conflict."
And she didn't know for certain Goliath was going to catch the vial: check out Greg's response to one fan's analysis of that event: http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=1749
Yeah, she wanted a distraction so she could escape, but she also was basically saying "Let the Fates fall where they may." Well, let's be honest here--her 500-year scheme was ruined. That sort of thing would lead even the most patient of people to say "$%^& it all" throw everything up in the air and then go get drunk.

GOLIATH & ELISA VS. THE WHOLE FRICKEN' WORLD> Well, what can I say that hasn't already been said (and better than I could)?
Well, first of all, I'm part of the camp that thinks Elisa would try to keep their relationship on the down-low--only known by family and the closest of friends. Greg's already given what he sees as being the reactions of the Maza family--and I'm really liking the idea that Derek will be against it because it means his sister is throwing away the kind of "normal life" that was ripped from him. In my mind, Elisa (and Goliath, as well) will keep this quiet not out of any shame, but just to try to avoid (or at least minimize) all the problems we are even now discussing.
Now, if news of this coupling ever gets out beyond that small group (or hell, if Maza's friendship with the gargoyles is revealed at all)then...yeah, she's pretty much screwed on multiple fronts. She'll be lucky if she's not evicted. Many on the force will ostracize her, and I shudder to think what Assistant District Attorney Margot Yale would do. Actually, I think Captain Chavez will put on a stoic face and do what she can to help Elisa keep her job, but that doesn't mean she's going to be happy with Elisa. In fact, I see her, immediately after speaking out in Elisa's defense, taking Elisa aside and (verbally) tearing her a new one. And Elisa would be hard pressed to blame her. Still, I find myself more interested in what Morgan's reaction would be (I mean, his rival for Elisa's affections was a GARGOYLE!). For that matter, it has never been specifically stated if Jason knew that Elisa's "mysterious boyfriend" was Goliath. If not, his reaction would have to be covered as well. And would Matt's connection be revealed as well, or will that somehow be kept hidden?
As for the public...a great many would condemn it. Those that see gargoyles as animals would condemn it as bestiality (except for those who go for that sort of thing--they would make Elisa they're champion). Those that see gargoyles as demons (and I'm sure that that is closer to Castaway's propaganda) would condemn it as unholy (except for those who go for that sort of thing--they would make Elisa they're champion). Those that don't see the gargoyles as either will still find it unsettling (except for--oh, you get the idea). Even people that could be considered "pro-gargoyle" may strongly object to a human-gargoyle pairing.
And yes, I could see a few gargoyles out in the wide world objecting to the pairing as well, both from the cultural "Gargoyles mate for life" viewpoint, and from the "WE HAVE TO BREED!" viewpoint.
And you know what else? I know Goliath and Elisa will weather all these storms, with each acting as the other's anchor. That thought actually brings me comfort.

Until next time! ****Blaise heads over to the corner, picks up a broomstick, and rides it out through the window.****

Blaise
"Now...if you trust in yourself...and believe in your dreams...and follow your star...you'll still get beaten by people who spent THEIR time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy."--Miss Tick, "The Wee Free Men"

Paul -- I would say her hatred of humans wasn't as strong as her own desire TO LIVE, not necessarily her love of the Gargoyle race. I don't think she ever had doubts with Operation Cleanslate . . . it's just that Goliath destroyed her protective Praying Gargoyle.

Doesn't stop the feeling that at that moment she was potentially suicidal in her mad rage . . .

Elisa -- Regarding the comment on Captain Chavez, I don't think it hurts to wonder why Elisa and Matt were assigned to the Taskforce to begin with (they didn't volunteer, right?) . . . I know Chavez is an old friend of the Maza family, and Matt has FBI connections. Hmmm, I'm now wondering about Morgan and Phil (not to mention Cedric & Tri). I'm kinda just musing here, but as always, enjoying reading the conversation.

Side comment -- You're still geeking out about the Daily Bugle in CB#10, aren't you? (don't blame you though d: )

Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible . . . I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka

[SPOILER] Incisivis, everyone is entitled to their opinions. You've made it clear beforehand that you've been longing to have a beaked female in the canon. But not everyone felt that way, and there's nothing wrong with that. Personally, I didn't want Katana to have a beak. I had no problem with the introduction of a beaked female character, I just didn't want it to be Katana. I already explained my reasons why back when there was still a lot of discussion about CBV2. [/SPOILER]
Rebel

Well, I think it's because she WANTED Goliath to catch it. (In fact, she even told him to catch it...) That would suggest that she had doubts about continuing Operation Clean Slate after Goliath destroyed the praying gargoyle, meaning that her hatred of humans wasn't that much stronger than her love of gargoyles.

In short, Demona strikes me as very confused, to say the least.

Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]

Ladies and gentlemen, I got lazy posting here, so I missed out on the bandwagon of reviewing CBV2, but I have to ask, about fan reaction to [SPOILER] Katana's appearance. Why oh why do so many find it unsettling or shocking that she has a beak? Nobody seemed to be bothered by other pairings between similar-looking gargoyles, but now all of the sudden, two beaked characters pair up, and it's weird. Do the roots of fanon really reach so deep that a humanoid-faced mate for Brooklyn was considered an inevitable thing? [/SPOILER]
Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even dragonflies and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream."--Shirley Jackson

PAUL> Dude, why do you think?
Greg Bishansky

Sure, Demona still tossed the vial and nearly wiped out all sentient life... but why didn't she just toss it downward, so that Goliath couldn't possibly catch it?
Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]

What about Magica deSpell? Shes a 'Big Bad' comicbook villain.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" -Sevarius, 'Louse'

Here's the episode schedule for the remaining new episodes of Spectacular Spider-Man, season 2: http://marvel.toonzone.net/news.php?action=fullnews&id=407 The new time is 9pm ET on Wednesdays (9:30 finale).
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Off-topic> Well, I'll be leaving in about 3 or 4 hours (probably about 3:00 am my time) to go to Kentucky for shooting my scene(s) in "Secretariat".
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

MICHAEL> Is that her choice, or the mutates' choice?
Greg Bishansky

>>
Well, aside from the fact that her very best friends and the gargoyle she loves are now dependent upon Xanatos for their very survival?<<<
There was abiout ten months between "The Cage" and "Hunter's Moon"

Hell, an interview with the mutates on live television after "The Cage" could have started the ball rolling.

Michael Ejercito - [mejercit at hotmail dot com]

Patrick: <I also once joked that Steve Irwin might travel to New York. "Isn't she a beaut? Lookit them glowing red eyes. Crikey, I think she's a-gee-tated. Terri, hand me my pokin' stick!">

I'd rather see Russell Crowe pick a fight with a gargoyle. ( ;

Paul: Even in "The Reckoning," I think Demona had other priorities. She told Goliath to save Angela, primarily because she seemed to be more interested in putting Thailog through the wall.

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Hoi, kids! My name is Russell Crowe, an' oi love ta foight!"

PATRICK> Don't make me repost "Seinfeld Meets Gargoyles"

;)

Greg Bishansky

Well, speaking of things Demona might do in public... surely someone out there had a VCR running that night she took over the airwaves. I wonder if the magic is still effective in a second-hand recording.
Patrick - [<-- Gathering T-shirt Clearance Sale]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

DEMONSKRYE> I was of course talking about comic books and the superhero genre.

If we go into other genres, then yes, there are plenty.

Greg Bishansky

PAUL> Yes, but Demona hates humanity more than she loves Angela. Just a couple of episodes later.

Goliath: Now spread your evil if you dare. We can all die together. You and I; the whole clan; and our daughter.

Demona ::shrieks and TOSSES THE VIAL:: Catch!

Yup, she risked Angela's life there along with everyone else's on a huge risk just to save her own ass.

I've noticed the Demona revisionists tend to focus on "The Reckoning" and ignore that ;)

Greg Bishansky

I'm with Todd; I think we need a clear definition of what a "supervillain" is before we can determine whether there are any great ladies who fit the description. Which properties and characters count, which don't, and why?
Demonskrye - [<---"Snow White" Part Three at The Ink and Pixel Club]

I was particularly interested in your examples of "female supervillains" that turned good, seeing as it is possible that Demona herself might turn good in 2198. Actually, I've seen some good from her already; her actions in "The Reckoning" make it pretty clear to me that she loves Angela more than she hates Goliath.

Then again, she showed that love by betraying Theilog, just like she had betrayed Macbeth, Goliath, and Xanatos...

Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]

I can think of a lot of other great female villains besides Demona who clearly weren't second-string characters, but since they were in other genres than the super-hero genre (which "Gargoyles", I think, is borderline) - such as the fantasy genre (the White Witch, the Wicked Witch of the West, the Queen in "Snow White", etc.) - I don't think it changes your premise.
Todd Jensen

Sorry to change the subject, but if you'll indulge me for just a moment, I wrote this up in my blog and think I'll share it here.

***

The Female Supervillain

So, this is something I've been pondering. Are there any real female supervillains out there. Okay, I know there are, but I am talking about A-List female supervillains.

When I say A-List supervillains, the following names immedietely come to mind:

Dr. Doom; Magneto; the Joker; Lex Luthor (who I always thought was a jackass); Norman Osborn/Green Goblin; Ra's al Ghul; the Kingpin; Dr. Octopus; Loki; Galactus; Darkseid; Thanos; well, you get the idea.

What is one thing they all have in common? They all have penises.

Honestly, the only A-List female supervillain who operates on that scale that I can think of is Demona from "Gargoyles". There are plenty of other female supervillains out there, but they're all little bads, where as Demona is a Big Bad. And since "Gargoyles" has crossed over from animated series into comic books, I don't mind counting her.

Other female supervillains that I can think of include Catwoman; Talia al Ghul; Emma Frost; Lily Hollister aka Menace; Star Sapphire; Harley Quinn; Poison Ivy; Madame Masque; Scarlet Witch; and Mystique.

Okay... those characters are all either subordinates of a male villain (Harley, Madame Masque, Menace, Talia, Mystique); a hero's femme fatale love interest (Catwoman, Talia, Madame Masque), turned good (Catwoman, Emma Frost, Scarlet Witch), or B-List villains at best.

The one exception might be Mystique. She assembled her own Brotherhood, and was smart enough to get them status as a government-licensed super-team, before everybody and their Skrull-doppelganger was doing that after Civil War...

... And then she gets played off as Magneto's token chick subordinate in every media ever.

Also it depends on who is writing Mystique this week.

A little bit of trivia, Venom was supposed to be a woman. The idea originally was that a pregnant woman was in a car with her husband in Manhattan as Spider-Man did battle against a supervillain, and innocent people were caught in the middle. Car crashes, husband dies, and the woman loses her baby and snaps. She blames Spider-Man for what happened, and in her grief and rage, she is found by the symbiote, bonds with it, and becomes Venom. That was David Michelinie's original idea. But then Spider-Editor, Jim Salicrup, didn't think anyone would buy a woman as a credible, physical threat to Spider-Man, and at the last minute, we got Eddie Brock instead.

So, is Demona it? I mean, as far as A-List supervillains go, she is a great one. One of the best, and most compelling, without being watered down at all as a threat. You can understand her, and even sympathize, but at the same time, you're not rooting for her to win. She is a credible threat, and can stand against just about any other character I've named. And her gender doesn't even matter as a defining point of her character, period. Well, outside of her being Goliath's former mate, but that just makes their conflict that much more personal.

Yes, I understand that when comic books were taking off, and the Comics Code was in affect, men battling and "beating up on women" was a no no, which is why very few female villains existed then. Very few female heroes either, they were mostly relegated to the status of girlfriend. Obviously, there were exceptions like Wonder Woman; Invisible Woman; Marvel Girl; etc.

Personally, I'd love to see more female supervillains. And not just for tokenism either. We've got some great ones, or ones with potential for greatness that just need more of a push.

At least that's my opinion, I could be wrong.

BTW, Dr. Mrs. The Monarch could probably run the entire Guild of Calamitous Intent herself, if she struck out on her own instead of either number twoing for Phantom Limb or marrying the Monarch. But I love her and the Monarch together, so I'm not complaining.

***

So far, off the top of my head, I think "Gargoyles" is the only series there is with a long lasting, A-List female supervillain.

If I am missing any, feel free to tell me.

Greg Bishansky

BISHANSKY - Though I'm not certain how much Thailog's going to be doing in public; he strikes me as preferring the "behind-the-scenes" kind of villainous scheming - or confronting Goliath and his clan in an out-of-the-way location.

Demona, on the other hand - though it'll probably be a while before she tries anything big, after the shock of seeing her five-hundred-year-old scheme fall apart at the last moment. (Not to mention that it'll take her a while to build up a new power base, thanks to Thailog taking over Nightstone.)

At least the gargoyles [SPOILER] weren't the slightest bit worried (so far as we can tell) about facing the Pack in a place like Times Square - though with the kind of parties that the Pack throw, I suspect that the civilians would have cleared out of the area by the time that the gargoyles arrived [/SPOILER].

Todd Jensen

GREG B> "And even then, just because they demonstrate speech and can speak doesn't mean anything. Native American tribes weren't recognized as human beings (and Revel is going to love me using this reference)."

Keep in mind, I used the qualifier that any rational person would have no choice but to except the gargoyles' sentience. How far that'll get them in a country where a small but vocal segment of the population are convinced their own president is secretly the commie-nazi-atheist-muslim Antichrist is debateble.

Algernon

I agree with Greg B. Sadly proving the gargoyles' sentience is going to be harder than it looks, and that's not counting the peoples' simple refusal to believe what's in front of their eyes.

And if it is proven, what then? Because the gargoyles still aren't human, and it'd be all too easy to see them as "naturally" dangerous even when theyr'e sentient, as certain classes of humans are seen as "naturally" this and "naturally" that, nuance be dammed.

Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even dragonflies and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream."--Shirley Jackson

PATRICK> Yeah, and who is going to set them up with an interview like that? Xanatos? Maybe Goliath Chronicles Xanatos, but the Xanatos we're dealing with, the real Xanatos, might like having them this dependent upon him.

And even then, just because they demonstrate speech and can speak doesn't mean anything. Native American tribes weren't recognized as human beings (and Revel is going to love me using this reference).

Hell, just over sixty years ago, Jews were called subhuman and were being slaughtered by the millions, and the rest of the world turned a blind eye.

You think that just because Goliath is intelligent and eloquent that all of a sudden Castaway is going to lose ground? I don't.

And with Thailog and Demona out there, and who knows what they'll pull in public to make them all look worse.

Nope, it's not going to be that easy.

Greg Bishansky

PATRICK - He'd better hope that it's Angela he's talking about and not Demona.

DEMONSKRYE - I think we can safely assume that the Ishimura clan's unknown to everyone outside Ishimura (except for Goliath and his clan, of course - and the Redemption Squad after they recruited Yama), or else Hunter's threat to expose them wouldn't have had teeth. Taro's probably not going to try revealing them again after how the first attempt turned out for him. Though we can be certain that Vinnie will be finding out about them in a hurry (I'd like to see his response to that one).

Todd Jensen

Algernon > Which is why a five-minute interview with Goliath or any other member of the clan -- even if it were done via a remote feed because the host is afraid to have a gargoyle in the studio -- would be one of the best things the clan could do to immediately counter the Quarrymen's "they're wild animals" anti-gargoyle spin machine.

Guardian > Yes, but the comic is still taking place in the mid to late 90s, not long after the case that made Cochran a household name.

Todd > I also once joked that Steve Irwin might travel to New York. "Isn't she a beaut? Lookit them glowing red eyes. Crikey, I think she's a-gee-tated. Terri, hand me my pokin' stick!"

Patrick - [<-- Gathering T-shirt Clearance Sale]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Guardian> I think what I said is that the London Clan is the only clan we've seen since the events of "Hunter's Moon" (though that's not entirely true if you count "Bad Guys"). The London Clan is certainly a lot more active than they were, but their existence hasn't been revealed to the world yet. The Ishimura Clan is known to the humans they live with, obviously, but I doubt that the rest of Japan knows about them.

Gargoyle Sentience> I agree that the mere fact that the gargoyles can speak may not convince people of their intelligence, but I also agree that the average gargoyle would quickly be able to demonstrate that he or she isn't merely mimicking human speech. I'm not saying this will convince everyone that gargoyles should be accepted, but someone would have to be pretty dedicated to believing that they're mindless beasts to keep thinking that after seeing one speak meaningfully.

And in defense of parrots, there was Alex the African grey who could answer questions about objects in his environment and operated on roughly the level of a human three year old. He was an exception; most parrots do just mimic. But most gorillas can't sign without years of training either.

Demonskrye - [<---"Snow White" Part Three at The Ink and Pixel Club]

DEMONSKRYE - I've also suspected that some people in Gotham City would be viewing a lot of the super-villain crowd as being Batman's fault - seeing them as really after Batman because of private grudges or because they see him as the "ultimate warrior" whom they would like to challenge for the sake of the title, and that they commit crimes more as bait for a Batman trap than, say, out of greed for the money. (It's tempting to imagine a scene where the "villain-of-the-week" robs a bank, Batman shows up to thwart him, the villain manages to foil him - presumably the Act One fight - and get away with the money, then throws it away once he's some distance from the bank, explaining to a bewildered henchman that he wasn't interested in the money, but was just robbing the bank to get Batman to show up.)

MICHAEL - Does the public yet know that Wolf was mutated into a man-wolf? We don't have any strong evidence for that as yet.

(I remember Patrick Toman once joking about Peter and Diane telling their friends that Derek's become a Black Panther.)

On gargoyle speech: Margot heard Goliath and the trio speaking when they rescued her and Brendan from the bank robbers at the start of "City of Stone", and understood that they were asking about the three little girls (whom she and Brendan hadn't seen at all, of course) - yet has no difficulty viewing the gargoyles as dangerous animals.

On another, lighter note: I recently thought it would make an amusing "comic relief" episode if some guy with a lot more money than sense thought that gargoyles would make the ultimate exotic pet, and tried capturing a few of them, with disastrous results. (Maybe even a big fight in his mansion as the captured gargoyles are escaping and the rest of the clan come to their rescue; in the course of the scuffle, the gargoyles and the not-too-bright rich guy's security team together manage to inadvertently demolish most of his art treasures, with the rich guy shouting "No, not my Ming vase!" or "No, not my chandelier!" in increasing alarm. Though maybe that last part might not be quite so funny after [SPOILER] Dingo arguing against destroying Eastcheap Isle because of all the important historical artifacts stored on it [/SPOILER].)

Todd Jensen

GREG B> "I don't think mere speech is going to be enough to get many people to just take their sentience for granted."

While an animal could theoretically be trained to mimic human speech, that's a long way away from debating the central themes of Dostoyevsky's "The Brothers Karamazov" with your parrot. It'll be impossible for any rational person to argue that Golaith is a mindless beast
in good faith, after interacting with him for any signifigant period of time.

Algernon

VINNIE> I don't recall Greg ever saying that.
Greg Bishansky

<Also, did not Elisa promise to take Xanatos down, no matter what it takes? What happened to that promise?>

Didn't Greg W. say once that Elisa would have to take a job with Xanatos after Internal Affairs caught up with her? It's going to be fun to see how her hatred for the man manifests when she works for him. Anyone ever wonder about that?

Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]

I think it was Deomnskrye that said that the only other Clan that has been revealed is the London Clan. But hasn't the Bushido Clan been revealed to their specific community? If I'm wrong, then I apologize.

By the way, Patrick, Johnny Cochran won't be able to defend any Gargoyles; he died in 2005. :-P

Now this is off topic, but I didn't get a response before so I'm going to try again. I'd like to try and invite either Greg or Thom (or both) to a themepark sometime in December (or whenever, I suppose), make it a pseudo-Gathering. Just having a day at a park. Does anyone know how I'd contact either of them -- or any of the Gargoyles pros for that matter -- for such a thing?

Guardian - [Guardian105 at gmail dot com]

ATTN: RANDOM FAN... the Random Fan who is posting in ASK GREG

I know you're asking if the crisis in 2001 that brings the leaders of four clans together was September 11th, and you say you saw that in the GargWiki's timeline, but, and just to help you...

According to both the wiki timeline, and Ask Greg, that meeting was on June 22nd. About three months before September 11th.

Hope that helps.

Greg Bishansky

MICHAEL> <<Also, did not Elisa promise to take Xanatos down, no matter what it takes? What happened to that promise?>>

Well, aside from the fact that her very best friends and the gargoyle she loves are now dependent upon Xanatos for their very survival?

;)

Seriously, I think Elisa still hates Xanatos's guts, and will never forgive him. Should never forgive him. But I don't think she's petty enough to not see the big picture here, either.

Greg Bishansky

Demons (if they exist) are not sentient? What about angels? Heck, what about the COYOTE android?

Speech may not be the be the only indicator of human-level intelligence, but it's a good first clue that you're not dealing with a mere dumb animal. Other than a few great apes who've learned sign language, there aren't any other animals on this planet that can speak human languages, other than those that are just mimicking sound (like parrots).

There are scientists who argue that dolphins and whales are highly intelligent beings based on their social behavior and their use of languages that we can't even understand.

Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Why would anyone have to lie about what happened to Derek? It is not as if it would be difficult to explain, since most people understood what happened to Wolf.

Also, did not Elisa promise to take Xanatos down, no matter what it takes? What happened to that promise?

Michael Ejercito - [mejercit at hotmail dot com]

Demons can't talk?

I don't think mere speech is going to be enough to get many people to just take their sentience for granted.

Greg Bishansky

Greg B > It's not going to be universally accepted (for very long) that gargoyles are beasts, wild animals, or demons. Hearing a gargoyle talk will be enough to make some people believe otherwise, or for others to at least put the assertions made by groups like the Quarrymen in doubt.

Any criminals attempting to get their sentences overturned on the basis of having been apprehended unlawfully by the gargoyles will find themselves in the bizarre position of having to argue that gargoyles are NOT animals, but sentient beings that should be held to humans under the law. There's nothing in the law that allows a criminal to beat a rap because a dog or a bear or other "wild animal" came upon the scene and attacked them, rendering them unable to get away before the police arrived.

Let's just hope Goliath doesn't get Johnny Cochran as his lawyer...

"Look at me. I'm a lawyer defending a seven-foot-tall purple gargoyle, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit! The defense rests."

Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

I don't imagine Castaway will have trouble balancing a respectable public policy platform and a proactive paramilitary wing. American fundraisers kept the IRA in guns and Libyan Semtex for decades before 2002.

That said, there are only seven known gargoyles to the world, none of them integrated into society, and there's yet to be any significant evidence that they're sentient, so I don't think Nazi tactics would really apply in the medium term.

Ed

Greg B> Not yet, but I'm sure someone is going to make the argument sooner or later. Eventually, some crook who the clan helped to put away is going to say "I never would have confessed if those gargoyles hadn't threatened me," or even "I was framed! The gargoyles probably committed the crime themselves!" They're not going to care whether or not this convinces anyone that gargoyles are intelligent creatures. They just want a way to get out of doing time.

I think its also a likely issue in Goliath's trial. I know that Greg W has said that the first problem will be determining that Goliath should have a trial at all, that it wouldn't be comparable to putting a golden retriever or a shetland pony on trial. But since we know there will be a trial, we can assume that Goliath is found to be a competent defendant. And the idea that the Manhattan Clan acts outside the law dispensing vigilante justice is bound to come up.

Speaking of Goliath's trial, I'm not sure if I can imagine a way that it would turn out particularly well. We don't know when it would take place, but since gargoyles wouldn't automatically be seen as being equal to humans in intelligence, I'm guessing it would be at a time when anti-gargoyle sentiment is still running pretty high. The clan does act outside of the law. Obviously it would be very bad for the series if they were legally prohibited from protecting the city. But what's the alternative? I don't think saying that the law does not apply to gargoyles would make anyone happy. It would mean that there's no real prohibition against killing a gargoyle - which is pretty much the case currently, so far as we know. But it would also mean that the gargoyles would be free to do whatever the Quarrymen imagine they might want to do and the law would be powerless to stop them.

Here's another thought: What if Goliath's lawyer - whoever that may be - calls Elisa as a witness? It could be helpful for Goliath, since it would show that his actions were condoned by at least one police officer. But it could be very bad for Elisa, who would now be on record about her friendship with the clan and have to deal with the professional and personal reprecussions of that.

Demonskrye - [<---"Snow White" Part Three at The Ink and Pixel Club]

"Also, "The Dark Knight" analogy doesn't work. No one thinks Batman is a beast, a wild animal, or a demon."

HAHAHA, this totally reminds me of back when in Batman comics, goons went, Oh [SPOILER] SHIT!! [/SPOILER] it's da LIVING BAT DEMON... THING!!! AAAAAAAAAAAH!!!" :D

Brook
I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

PATRICK> According to Greg, Elisa was a hair away from getting fired. She was just lucky there was a turf war going on between Dracon and Brod, and they needed an officer that Brod's gang would be unfamiliar with (they've been in NY for several months and had a lot of encounters with the precinct) to go in undercover.

So, yup, if not for that mayhem, Elisa would be collecting unemployment.

Also, "The Dark Knight" analogy doesn't work. No one thinks Batman is a beast, a wild animal, or a demon. No one is accusing the gargoyles of being vigilantes.

Greg Bishansky

Patrick> I don't think it's so much the idea that crimefighters with better tools create villains with better tools; it's that the more effective and flashy crimefighters attract and inspire the supervillains who fight them. The thinking is that if Batman were not in Gotham City, his rogues gallery would go somewhere else or at least not pull off such high level gimmick based crimes because they don't see themselves as being in competition with Batman. There's an episode of Batman: TAS called "Trial" which deals with this line of thinking and comes to the conclusion that while their gimmicks might be different, all of Batman's foes are criminals for their own reasons, not because Batman exists.

I think you may be right about Chavez. If Jeffrey Robbins can figure out that Hudson is a gargoyle, then someone with Maria Chavez's skills may suspect more about what Elisa has been up to than she's letting on.

Demonskrye - [<---"Snow White" Part Three at The Ink and Pixel Club]

Chavez cut Elisa a ton of slack for the World Tour. Could any one of us get away with vanishing for over six months and return to find we still had a job? Chavez also didn't get where she is in the department by being an idiot. She probably "knows" a lot more than she lets on, while not wanting to "know" in the official sense for the sake of plausible deniability.

"The Dark Knight" touched on the issue of blaming the effectiveness of the hero for the escalation of the criminal element's tactics. In the end, the argument that "crime fighters should not get better tools because it means criminals will get worse" always seems flawed to me. Certainly there is always going to be that sort of dynamic in what is essentially a predator / prey relationship, but is the answer most benefiting society for the good guys give up chasing the bad guys?

As for the Quarrymen... innocent civilians caught in the crossfire of mob behavior crying, "These people wouldn't be rioting if THEY were not here!" and demanding that "THEY" be removed... wow, that smells a lot like Germany in the 1930s to me. It'd be a dark day for this country when the behavior of lawless mobs is allowed to steer public policy.

Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Derek's Objections> Now that I've had a little more time to think about, it occurs to me that maybe Derek's issues with Elisa wanting to be with Goliath are also because of what their family will have to go through. Anytime anyone outside of the immediate family asks about Derek, the Mazas have to lie. I don't know what kind of lie they've come up with at this point (Has Greg ever said?), but I'm sure they aren't telling most people the truth. Again, it wasn't Derek's choice to put his family in that situation, though he and Elisa did eventually decide that it would be better for the rest of the family to know what had happened to him than to continue thinking he had just vanished. Maybe what Elisa is doing isn't as extreme, but still, every time someone asks Diane or Peter or Beth about why Elisa seems so dead set against dating or where she's spending all of her off hours, they will have to lie. And Elisa is choosing to do this.

think the more reasonable Derek's arguments are, the more interesting this story is going to be. My thought when Greg first revealed that Derek would be the member of the Maza family to take issue with Elisa and Goliath's relationship was that his mutation made it pretty hypocritical. But now, I can see where he might have some valid points that Elisa should consider before making her decision final.

Rebe;> I see your point about ideas, and I think it's less about ensuring that no one can ever look at your work and say "I had that idea first" and more about doing what you know is right. Gargoyleslady specifically asked about using ideas that came up here in fanfiction, which indicates to me that they weren't ideas that she came up with on her own. If that's the case, then I think she should at least acknowledge that fact. I think the idea that some gargoyles may object to Goliath's relationship with Elisa is broad enough that it can't be attributed to any one person. Lots of people probably came up with it independently. And I could definitely see two or more people independently thinking that one of those gargoyles might be Coldstone. But if its a specific idea and you know you hadn't thought of it before someone else mentioned it, I think it's good form to at least acknowledge that person's contribution to your work. Something like "Thanks to x,y, and z from the Station Eight Comment Room for helping to inspire this story."

I wrote a fanfic a long time ago that included the idea that the spot on the back between a gargoyle's wings is very sensitive. I thought it was a neat concept that made use of a piece of anatomy particular to gargoyles. But i didn't come up with it. Near as I could tell, Christine Morgan did. I don't recall if I asked her permission to use it, but I think I did ask around the comment room about who originated the idea. And I gave Christine a shout-out at the beginning of the story, because I knew that I didn't think of that idea on my own and I wanted to make sure that was clear to the readers.

Gargoyleslady> I think what we've been discussing is the idea that some gargoyles might be opposed to Goliath taking a human as a mate, but if you want to write a fanfic where most gargoyles are against it, then go for it!

Demonskrye - [<---"Snow White" Part Three at The Ink and Pixel Club]

MATT - True, though in this scenario, Goliath was considering abandoning New York, not out of concern for the clan's safety, but out of concern for the good of the city and its inhabitants (including Elisa) - with the possibility that the gargoyles' presence had made things ultimately worse for the human inhabitants (Elisa's life in shambles, the criminals whom the gargoyles had helped defeat now using the gargoyles' vigilantism to help their case, etc.).
Todd Jensen

Sounds like an awful ending to the series...

And yet still a bit better than a certain proposed TGC ending.

I just can't see the Manhattan Clan ever abandoning their protecterate. I mean, things are bad sometimes, but things were bad in 994 too and they remained. Sure, some gargoyles (Othello) considered abandoning the Castle, but in the end the gargoyles 'could no longer stop protecting the Castle than breathing the air', remember?

I think that even in 1997 (isn't it awesome to be in a new year?), things are significantly better for the Manhattan Clan than they were for the Wyvern Clan in 994. It seems to me that in 1997 they have stronger allies in some local humans and a lot more allies in general. Elisa, Bluestone, Robbins, Vinnie, Macbeth, Dr. Sato, even Xanatos and the Labyrinth Clan to an extent. In 994, they seemed to have only the Captain (and in their last few days Tom too).

My point is that even if we didn't know it from canon-in-training, I still couldn't see the Manhattan Clan ever abandoning New York. I just can't see things getting worse than they were in 994.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" -Sevarius, 'Louse'

I had a vision of something like this happening:

The full story about Elisa's association with the gargoyles has come out (as discussed here), with it leading to the various troubles that we'd speculated on, especially at work. The lawyers for virtually every criminal that the gargoyles helped thwart are announcing that their clients' civil rights were clearly abused. The latest round of anti-gargoyle rioting (we know that Castaway's far more prudent than his "Goliath Chronicles" counterpart and isn't going to be firing off anti-aircraft guns in the city, but not all gargoyle haters are likely to keep as close a watch on public image as he does) has done a lot of damage, and maybe even injured many people who weren't able to get out of the way in time, and people on the news are arguing that the gargoyles' presence is making things worse rather than better with a tone of "Before they came along, all we had to worry about was regular crime. Now we're getting cyborg criminals, robot parts falling out of the sky, missing nights, and more." And Goliath wonders uneasily, as he observes all of this, whether perhaps he and his fellow gargoyles are making things worse for the humans, and whether the best way that they could protect the human race was to withdraw to Avalon, stay there, and let the humans handle their own problems - even if it's too late to undo the wreckage that he and his clan have made of Elisa's life.

Todd Jensen

More about Elisa having a normal life...

Could she have a normal life after that World Tour, where she had repeated close encounters with the fey, including Oberon himself?

Michael Ejercito - [mejercit at hotmail dot com]

INCISIVIS> All of those reasons, but I think Elisa lying to Chavez would also play a part.

Plus, like I said, the political consequences could be disastrous. Every arrest Elisa and Matt have made would be under review. Chavez might be too.

Greg Bishansky

The reason I proposed Talon's objection to Elisa's relationship with Goliath is exactly what everyone's saying: Talon handles it well, but no doubt he *does* have some regrets about no longer being human, and seeing Elisa *choose* a state of affairs that causes a similar conflict, similar alienation, would cause mixed emotions to arise.

As for Chavez, I don't entirely think it would be hunky-dory for Elisa there, but...out of curiosity, what does everyone think Chavez's motivations would be for coming down on Elisa? Would it be partly because she sees Elisa as compromising her role as a police officer? Or even simple disgust? (Chavez didn't get where she was by letting emotions get in the way, but she's only human) Or would it partly be for the public, to avoid unwanted attention on the precint with a more literal gargoyle-lover on its beat?

Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even dragonflies and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream."--Shirley Jackson

Rebel> I asked first because I wasn't sure if anyone here would approve of me using what's being discussed here as an outline for a story or not. I'm someone with Asperger's syndrome and one of my attributes is not recognizing people's facial expressions so I figured using comments (depending on the discussion) would help build an outline.
Gargoyleslady - [kendal dot renfro at yahoo dot com]

Demonskrye > I agree that part of Talon's reason for being opposed to Elisa's relationship with Goliath could be that he simply wants her to have a normal life. It makes perfect sense, and is one of the most sensible reasons that I have heard so far for him taking such a stance.

However, regarding fanfic ideas, I think that the only sort of ideas which a person needs to ask permission for are ideas which they specifically got from someone else, which did not occur to them on their own. For example, while I didn't say so out loud, it had already occurred to me that Coldstone would likely be opposed to Goliath and Elisa's relationship, before anyone here ever mentioned it. Does that mean I couldn't write a fanfic about that (without asking permission), just because someone else posted it first, even though I already came up with that idea on my own before I read it here?

It's a moot point anyway, since I don't write fanfiction, but I just don't want to see people feeling like they need to ask permission to use ideas if they came up with those ideas independently. If it is indeed an idea that they get from someone else's comments, then I agree, asking for permission would be a good move.

Rebel

Demonskrye> Thanks for the all clear. I was thinking of using the subject of most gargoyles objecting to Elisa and Goliath's relationship being discussed here.
Gargoyleslady - [kendal dot renfro at yahoo dot com]

Patrick> Actually, I think desire for Elisa to have a normal life could very well be part of Derek's reasoning for not being OK with her relationship with Goliath. He had a complicated life forced on him. Yes he took the job with Xanatos, but he could never have imagined that it would lead to him being left with an appearance that prohibits him from being part of society any more. So maybe part of the problem is that he can't understand why Elisa would willingly choose to make her life so complicated. Maybe he thinks that she hasn't considered how difficult it will be and all the sacrifices she'll have to make, while Derek - who has been living through a similar situation - knows first hand what's in store for her.

And as we're discussing, this isn't an interracial couple; it's an interspecies couple. So it's actually pretty understandable that a lot of people, and probably a few gargoyles, aren't going to approve.

Gargoyleslady> How do you mean? If you want to use a general idea that's being discussed here as inspiration for a fanfic - such as the idea that some gargoyles might not be willing to accept Elisa and Goliath as a couple - I think that would probably be OK, But if you were going to write about a more specific idea that came up in discussion - like Coldstone objecting to his brother's choice of mate or Goliath and Elisa's adopted child being the biological child of Talon and Maggie who had died tragically - then I think you would want to ask the person who brought up that idea if you can use it in your fanfic, just to be safe.

Demonskrye - [<---"Snow White" Part Three at The Ink and Pixel Club]

Let's hope that they don't try to interview Bronx. "No, stop him, he's eating the microphone!"
Todd Jensen

Is it okay to use some of the comments here for references in fanfics?
Gargoyleslady - [kendal dot renfro at yahoo dot com]

Greg > Some of the TGC episodes had decent premises but failed in execution, and that was one of them. It failed the moment we saw that Fox had rigged stunts to make the gargoyles looked good, apparently without thinking of how badly that could have backfired.

I say put a gargoyle on Larry King's show. That get a lot of mileage because Leno and Letterman would be talking about it the next day. "Did you see that interview with the gargoyle? I've never seen a face so stony and craggy. But enough about Larry King..."

Patrick - [<-- Gathering T-shirt Clearance Sale]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

But legally there would be no differentiation between one animal and another until a court ruled (or specific legislation was passed). Anyway, I doubt studios would want a wild animal with apparent violent tendencies on their talk show sets, inches away from their highly-valuable hosts, let alone an audience. Not until investigative journalists and the law have weighed in on the gargoyle issue. Or until Xanatos bribes them I guess.
Ed

PATRICK> Are you defending "Broadway Goes to Hollywood" now? ;)
Greg Bishansky

This will probably never happen in "Gargoyles", but it's another crazy creativity demon that forced itself into my consciousness:

Demona spots an article in the Daily Tattler about Elisa and Goliath's relationship, and, in spite of her jealous fury about it, is amused at the thought of all the awkward questions Elisa will be facing at work about it. Then she turns to the next page, sees the headline "NEW YORK BUSINESSWOMAN TURNS INTO GARGOYLE AT NIGHT" - shortly after that, most (if not all) of the staff of the Daily Tattler mysteriously disappear (and if they're ever found, the condition that they're in when found is best left undescribed).

Todd Jensen

A gorilla couldn't choose to make an appearance on any of the dozens of talk shows that would surely be clamoring to be the first to interview a gargoyle and show that it's an intelligent, sentient being.

I'd love to see David Letterman's "Top Ten Signs Your Dating a Gargoyle."

Patrick - [<-- Gathering T-shirt Clearance Sale]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

ALGERNON> Yeah, it's been mentioned that crooks talked, but no one believed them.

"He was babbling about monsters attacking him and his men."

And since the gargoyles didn't officially exist, the cops obviously didn't make anything of it. Hell, it helped them get Dracon.

Now, after "Hunter's Moon" things might change. Something to explore in further installments.

Greg Bishansky

I think that the London clan would have less worry about exposure than most of the other clans might. Everyone looking out for gargoyles will be looking out for the kind that look like Goliath and his clan; they won't be looking for heraldic animals. (I've sometimes suspected that it would be a long time before most people figured out that the London clan belonged to the same species as the Manhattan clan - it would be much like the "Would a visitor from another planet realize that a St. Bernard and a chihuahua were the same kind of animal?" question.) Also, since they openly run a shop, it'll be difficult for even the most anti-gargoyle Londoners to argue that they're mere wild beasts; their sentience will have to be assumed from the start.

I've long had a creativity demon of Talon, after finding out about Elisa and Goliath's relationship, loudly protesting that no sister of his is going to go out with a bat-winged freak - and then halting as he realizes that the term "bat-winged freak" just might be used to describe *him* nowadays.

Incidentally, if we get more "Gargoyles" stories (presumably in graphic novel format), I'd like to see Peter and Diane Maza's response when Elisa tells them that they're going to be grandparents (after learning from Dr. Sato about Maggie being expecting), as well as their response to Elisa's relationship with Goliath.

The mention of the Daily Bugle (and, yes, I can imagine J. Jonah Jameson taking an interest in that story, to provide some variety from his feud with Spider-Man) reminded me of one of my favorite moments in the crossover Radio Play (which also ties in with the "gargoyles perceived as wild animals" thread), when Goliath comments, upon first meeting Spidey, that the Daily Bugle must be right about him being a threat and a menace, to which Spidey says "Wait a minute! You can talk? And you can read? And what you read are the Jolly One's editorials?"

I agree that a lot of the "Ask Greg" questions are repetitive - though the majority of them these days are about "The Spectacular Spider-Man" rather than about "Gargoyles" (and have, sadly, shown some repetition there, such as asking over and over if there's going to be a third season).

Todd Jensen

GREG B> Actualy that brings up another point I've often wondered about. Do crooks captured by the clan ever tell the cops, their lawyers or the juries about the gargoyles and if so, what do the authorities make of it?

Obviously experianced operators like Dracon or Brod would say as little as possible or risk incriminating themselves, but you gotta imagine someone somewhere would blab. Plus the investigators would want to know how Dracon got tied up with a steel pipe.

Algernon

Patrick: Proof is the issue. As long as Elisa is willing to deny her relationship, or to talk about it very cautiously, she might be safe from prosecution but she'd be walking on eggshells. I would think at the lowest level, any public display of affection caught on a phone camera would qualify her for a court appearance; after all, what if a cop was found in similar circumstances with a gorilla? I'm sure a creative lawyer could find an animal protection rationale for prosecuting. If they become mates and there was evidence of them being talked about as "mates", the linguistics of what "to mate" entails could be interpreted by the court. If they try for a child, they could subpoena Elisa's medical records. And it's not like Elisa hasn't got plenty of people who could testify against her -- not just gangsters, but Dominique Destine and Jason Canmore whose testimonies (legitimate or otherwise) could prove vital in building a case. Even if there's not enough proof ultimately to convict her I think enough proof could be found to try the case which is all that would be needed to destroy her career and discredit her work.
Ed

@ Greg B: My upcoming CLAN BUILDING review will deal a bit more with Angela. For now, I rest it at what I said before. ;)

And I don't think there would be a need for a photo... after thinking things through, imagine Elisa being a public figure in the Gargoyles elite force, and, well... Castaway doing a phone call, a journalist asking the question... it would be enough to set Elisa off, and reconsider if she should be meet with Goliath, not to mention the clan and how people would look upon them... ya know, like, up to that point, people thought Gargoyles would be killing and eating humans... what if people would start minding if they'd actually RAPE them??

Brook
I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

ALGERNON> I was just about to make that point. Back, before I left TGS, I had planned a Chavez finds out story, and well... it did not go well for Elisa at all.

Yes, Elisa was lying. In the NYPD, that is a no-no. How many arrests has she made with the gargoyles' help? How many "civil rights" were violated. I am not talking out of my ass here, but this sort of thing could get people like Dracon and Brod out on the streets again. As the arresting officer, Elisa would testify at their trials.

So, nope, I don't think Chavez would be as understanding as some people think. The wrong move, and she'd be under investigation too.

Greg Bishansky

Incisivis> "I agree with the idea that once it gets out, there would be a huge political backlash against the NYPD itself, but I can't see Chavez caving any time soon."

Actually I expect Chavez would come down pretty hard on Eliza, simply because Eliza has pretty much been consistantly lying to her for over two years. Just look at all the times Eliza -or Matt for that matter- have covered up the clan's involvement in a criminal case.

From Chavez's perspective, it could potentialy destroy her faith in two of her best officers. She might not ever be able to trust then again and frankly, I wouldn't blame her.

That's not even counting the kind of crucifixion Internal Affairs would put her through.

Algernon

If Derek had wanted Elisa to have a "normal life", he shot those hopes in the foot himself the moment he accepted the job offer from Xanatos.
Patrick - [<-- Gathering T-shirt Clearance Sale]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Goliath + Elisa>Now I'm thinking of that one issue of Swamp Thing where Abigail Arcane was taken to court for "beastiality".

I agree with the idea that once it gets out, there would be a huge political backlash against the NYPD itself, but I can't see Chavez caving any time soon.

It's also easy to picture widely varied reactions to the relationship among the main cast. Talon I can see not liking it for reasons of wanting his big sister to have a "normal" life, but whatever the motivation I hope Greg goes There, as in having likeable characters disagree with what the audience is supposed to agree with. It'll all work out in the end, but we need some external tension.

The reason I like GoliathxElisa despite the "Beauty and the Beast" thing being a tired old hat, is that Greg actually takes time to consider the issues arising from it, and I'd want him to follow through. Have them earn their happy ending.

Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even dragonflies and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream."--Shirley Jackson

Here's what it comes down to, what would a prosecutor really need to prove? Especially in a highly political situation like this. People are forced out of careers all the time due to "politics."

I mean, and especially now with the gargoyles revealed to the public, all that it takes is one lucky person with a camera phone to be there at the right moment when Goliath and Elisa swap spit, and it'll be in the Daily Tattler the following day, or maybe even the Post or the Times.

Or even the Daily Bugle, which thanks to #10 may exist in the Gargoyles Universe ;)

Greg Bishansky

Ed > There's no law that makes it a crime to be in love with an animal. There are laws prohibiting the physical act of bestiality, but absent an eyewitness, how would a prosecutor prove it?
Patrick - [<-- Gathering T-shirt Clearance Sale]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

FAQS> 9. What does the rest of the clan think of Goliath and Elisa's relationship?

Greg's answer: I think everyone in the immediate clan would react very positively at this point.


Maybe I'm reading into "immediate" too much, but perhaps future members of the clan will object. Maybe even Katana will be critical (perhaps even one of the conflicts between her and Brookyln).

Antiyonder

BROOK> I don't know what you're talking about, Angela has plenty of character.
Greg Bishansky

There's a much more prosaic problem for Elisa. Gargoyles would be considered animals so any relationship, if proved (or admitted), would be illegal. She might, if she picks her time right, make legal history through the courts, but it would take years and her career would be over.
Ed

I don't think so - the entire thing just HAD to break one way or another (at least for a short time). It wouldn't have been a gimmick or something, and Greg is good enough a writer to pull this through in a dramatic fashion, and it would have effected the entire clan (and it just might have forced Angela to FINALLY HAVE A CHARACTER, DAMNIT!!). I'm not talking of Brand New Day-isms (UGH!!!) but of a more downbeat, more melancholic arc.
Brook
I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

Brook> I loved how the two "got together" during Hunters Moon and would have loved to see them dating, the split, and then with each episode going "OH, HELL, GET BACK TOGETHER AGAIN!!" just to jerk a tear when they finally DO reconcile after a year - so Id have been happy with a 15 EP solution.

I'm thankful that Greg didn't take that route. Reason that tends to be done is that most writers don't have the ambition or belief that a show can be interesting with the lead characters being together in a healthy relationship.

Antiyonder

@ Demonskrye: Sure, the comic solution was pretty logical - and realistic (these kinda situations ALWAYS happen really fast and ALWAYS take place within a few days), but somehow... I dunno, I would have felt it cool to have this issue revolve around more than just one or two "episodes". I loved how the two "got together" during Hunters Moon and would have loved to see them dating, the split, and then with each episode going "OH, HELL, GET BACK TOGETHER AGAIN!!" just to jerk a tear when they finally DO reconcile after a year - so Id have been happy with a 15 EP solution.

@ Fido: No problem mate. :) We just really, really NEED to get out... just the other month I talked to a friend about comics and was like "but geez, do you remember Gargoyles? That show was cool, and they actually do it as a comic now!" and he was really surprised and told me he was raised with that show... so yeah, there are loads of people outside who actually need to be told, especially in Computer game forums, cause that's the generation. :)

Brook
I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

to Demonstryke and Brook: lol, yeah I know....thanks for that :3
(i really appreciate you guys telling me nicely...i've had other instances in the past that weren't so kind)

yeah...i forget a lot of people around here actually DO read the archibes and put forth an effort. (the archives are VERY repetitve sometimes....) thanx again.

FidoPaws
Defenders of the Night. Stopping evil stone cold.

Fido> What Brook said. Unfortunately, most of the people who post on Ask Greg with questions about more "Gargoyles" TV episodes or a movie or what have you don't post in the comment room. It would be great if they did, because the people here could answer their questions a lot faster and it would help keep repetitive questions out of the queue. But they generally don't. Most of the people who post here are the ones who know he status of the property and what needs to be done to keep it afloat.

That said, we're certainly happy to have you here and appreciate the effort. Feel free to stick around and join in the conversation.

Brook> I shared your surprise about how quickly that particular arc of Elisa and Goliath's relationship played out. Maybe it's partly because I had known about it for so long in advance, but the way I envisioned it was that Elisa and Goliath would make a few initial attempts at dating, then decide - largely on Elisa's side - that i just couldn't work, then spend at least a couple of months as "just friends," and finally coming to the conclusion that they had to be together, even if it was hard. However, within the context of the story, I can see why events happened as fast as they did. Elisa pretty much had it spelled out for her what she had to give up to be with Goliath and wasn't sure she was prepared to do that. And then, not long after, the idea that Goliath's injury might be fatal forced the two of them to recognize that they had to make it work, no matter how difficult it might be.

Demonskrye - [<---"Snow White" Part Three at The Ink and Pixel Club]

@ Fido: Hey there Fido. :)

Before you continue, I guess this page is, umh... let's just say there are some people here who are REALLY REALLY into spreading the word already. ;) Like, a LOT...

I'm sure pretty much all of us own most of what's out when it comes to newer Gargoyles stuff, and so do most other fans on fansites. So, if you want to spread the word some more, I advise you to do so on imdb, disney, comic and TV message boards, all kinds of message boards you are a part of, Twitter, myspace, facebook etc. What the show needs are NEW or old but UNTAUGHT fans.

WE NEED TO TEACH THEM!!

(badly)

>:(

;)

So yeah, in short: when it comes to spreading the word, doing it here is kinda preaching to the choir. ;) But look around some other websites and message boards, and drop the news about the comics, the DVDs, the shirts etc.

Thanks for trying here though. :)

Brook
I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

Todd> The only other clan we've seen since the existence of the Manhattan Clan was revealed to the world is the London Clan and if the gargoyles from that clan we met harbored any kind of resentment towards Goliath or his clan for inadvertantly revealing the gargoyle species to the world, they certainly didn't show it. I'm guessing that the clans that actually met Goliath will generally be more sympathetic to him, knowing that he's a good guy and probably realizing that he didn't have much say in the matter. The more isolated clans I'm not as certain about, but since they are still pretty well hidden so far as we know, it may not really effect them. The Avalon Clan is relatively isolated, but I'm sure they still support Goliath and aren't too worried about how this will effect them personally, since they're now permanently based on Avalon. (Of course, this is also assuming that the Avalon Clan even knows about what happened.)

Bluewyvern> My hopes is that Derek's reluctance to accept his sister's decision to be with Goliath will force him and Maggie to confront the question of whether or not they would be together if they had not both been mutated. The origin of Goliath and Elisa's child is a whole other issue that I'm not going to get into right no, but your theory is interesting and not beyond possibility.

I don't think Elisa will ever hold a press conference about her relationship, unless she is forced into doing so or believes it will advance the cause of interspecies tolerance. But I think there may come a time when she and Goliath decide that not hiding their love is a risk worth taking. It could just be as simple as telling coworkers the truth or being seen together in public acting affectionate towards one another. But once the news gets past family and close friends, it's only a matter of time before it's public knowledge.

I'm not sure about Elisa losing her job over her relationship with the clan in general and Goliath in particular. Yes I think there is going to be pressure on Chavez to fire her once the news comes out and that some people on the force - Chavez included - might be upset to learn that Elisa kept this whole thing a secret for so long. But on the other hand, she may well be getting pressure not to fire Elisa for her behavior outside of work. We know that Chavez thinks Elisa is a good cop and has allowed her to get away with some odd behavior in the past because of it. Will this be one step too far for Elisa? We'll have to see.

I hadn't really thought about members of the Manhattan Clan taking issue with Goliath's relationship with Elisa. Granted, Coldstone and Coldfire are among the clan's newest members, so they haven't had as much opportunity to get to know Elisa and watch her friendship with Goliath gradually develop into something more as Hudson, the Trio, and Bronx have. But like you said, it seems a little too close to what's going on with Derek:

Elisa: My brother doesn't approve of us being together.

Goliath: Strangely enough, neither does mine.

I am very curious about how Coldstone and Coldfire will relate to the rest of the Manhattan Clan, particularly Angela. We kow that they both care very much about the clan and are close to Goliath, so maybe that will be enough for them to stay open minded long enough to get to know Elisa and observe how she and Goliath feel about one another for themselves.

Demonskrye - [<---"Snow White" Part Three at The Ink and Pixel Club]

@ Greg B: Something that bothered me about INVITATION ONLY was how quick the entire thing played out. The issued addressed in the book are some which I'd have loved to see unfold over an entire arc, maybe even longer. Sadly enough, Greg hasn't has the amount of space to do so... :(

Anyways, I think the media will not be aware of it for some time. Probably the Quarrymen might hand some information to some anti-Gargoyle sources to denounce her, and yeah, that could cause quite some damage... but it can only be made public if and when Goliath turns into a "celebrity". Because, well, otherwise she could just laugh it off without consequences... "Me, doing a purple winged guy that turns to stone at day? C'mon, I'm not THAT... uh..."

Brook
I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

Okay, so a lot of people are going crazy over the whole 'Gargoyles' thing....everything, more or less.
"Will they release a soundtrack?; Will there be a movie?; Why isn't there a movie?, etc...."

All in all, it all depends on the fans. The more support the show gets the more likely it is we'll get a movie. Browsing the archives, I've seen that the few scripts that were introduced for the movie weren't as good as the company (Touchstone/Disney) wanted, which is good because rather than having a crappy movie now we can get a great movie later.

So, basically, the show is dead on TV. It doesn't come on in the mornings often anymore, and when it does it's usually on at a time most people can't watch it. So, go online and buy everything that's avalible--the T-shirts, the comics, the DVDs. Every sale counts.

We've already gained the serious continuation via comics now. That's a HUGE improvement. More products, more support, a better chance for the show? Got it?

In the works of Greg Weisman himself, "Spread the word."

FidoPaws

Interesting topic. I'll take it section-by-section.

Friends and family: we have been told that the Mazas, with the exception of Derek (I've never liked calling him Talon), will be accepting. I expect Maggie to try to temper his reaction and urge tolerance, pointing out that they are a cat couple living in a clan with gargoyles and a little who-knows-what on the way, but Derek will respond with, "But that's different. We're still both humans." Maybe her arguments will sway him, or maybe he'll be uneasy with it his whole life, which would be interesting. Or maybe Derek and Maggie will both die tragically, rendering the point moot, and Elisa and Goliath will adopt their child. Maybe it will be Derek himself asking them at the last moment. (That's my strongest theory at the moment for the "tragic adoption" story. I also think the child will turn out mostly human.)

The public: I don't think Elisa will ever acknowledge her relationship with Goliath publicly. She may not exactly attempt to hide it, but she will never confirm or deny it in any interview. Allegations will fly anyway. They would even if her relationship with Goliath were completely chaste. The Xanatoses will have to give her a lesson in sheltering herself from the media, because it will tear her apart.

Police: She won't tell them, either. But they won't be happy when the whole hiding gargoyles thing comes out, never mind Elisa's relationship with one. It's a tough call for Chavez. She might even understand why Elisa hid the gargoyles and want to give a good cop a break, but it will be tough to have someone on the force with Elisa's new controversial public image. As for the Goliath rumors, Chavez probably will say she doesn't know and doesn't want to know. Elisa's career as a cop may be over, but I think she'll still keep the respect of (most of) her peers. (Tri Chung would be an interesting person to have a problem with interspecies relationships, so I like to imagine him taking a dim view of the detective.) After a forced retirement from the force, Elisa will have plenty to do in her new role as a human/gargoyle liason.

Other gargoyles: Some will definitely have a problem with it. You know who I think the first one will be? Coldstone. He seems like a pretty intolerant, set-in-his-ways type. It seems to mirror too closely the dynamic I see between Maggie and Derek, but I think Coldfire will be more open-minded. She seems to be a peacemaker and the voice of reason. Or maybe she won't like it either, but will at least urge Coldstone to put it behind him and give Goliath his support and respect as leader.

I think it could also hurt Goliath's standing with leaders of other clans. I do agree they might not like all the sudden public exposure thanks to the deeds of the Manhattan clan, and Goliath's involvement with a human might just strike them as strange and misguided.

bluewyvern

I've sometimes wondered, for that matter, if a few gargoyles might be angry at Goliath and his clan for getting themselves revealed to the human world, thus endangering the species' secrecy. The Manhattan clan is the only gargoyle clan that the human world knows about at this point, but how long will it be before more clans are exposed?
Todd Jensen

Interesting question. My suspicion is that Elisa and Goliath will eventually be open about their relationship. Not anytime soon; as we saw in issues #3 through #5 it's still a challenge for the two of them to just be together without the entire world knowing about it. But I think there will come a point where the two of them decide that they should be able to openly acknowledge their relationship and I kind of doubt that' it's going to be after most people in the world or even Manhattan have accepted gargoyles. I imagine that Elisa's friendship with the clan will come out first, though I don't know if the general public will ever be aware of just how long she's known them unless she decides that information is necessary in her defense of them. Then further down the line, her particular relationship with Goliath will come out.

All that said, t would be particularly poignant if Elisa and Goliath were never able to openly acknowledge their love, possibly out of fear of the danger it would place the clan and Elisa's family in.

I seem to remember that Greg once said that Derek would have some initial issues with Elisa and Goliath's relationship, but the rest of the Maza family would accept it pretty readily.

We already know from the comics some of the difficulties Elisa will face as a result of loving Goliath, but I'm really hoping we'll also see that the choice has consequences for Goliath. I think there's a bit of a tendency in the fandom to assume that the negative pressure o the couple will come solely from humans and never from gargoyles. I'm OK with thinking that most gargoyles who know Goliath and Elisa personally will understand and accept how they feel about one another, but the species is neither inherently noble nor a hive mind. Surely there will be gargoyles who don't approve and I don't just mean Demona. Gargoyles normally mate for life and Goliath is not only breaking the cultural taboo against taking another mate, but choosing a human at a time when the gargoyle population is dangerously low. You can't tell me that no gargoyles other than Demona will be the least bit turned off by that. Someone somewhere is going to object.

Demonskrye - [<---"Snow White" Part Two at The Ink and Pixel Club (Part Three later today)]

And I don't even want to imagine how the Daily Tattler will respond to the discovery of Elisa's relationship with Goliath.
Todd Jensen

At the very least, I suspect she would be removed from the Gargoyles Taskforce. And since Matt Bluestone is her partner, I suspect his knowledge of the gargoyles would come under review as well.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" -Sevarius, 'Louse'

I think that even Elisa's friendship with the gargoyles, once it becomes public, would mean big trouble for her. Aside from it making her the obvious target for every violent gargoyle-hater in Manhattan, I doubt that Chavez will be too happy for Elisa concealing this information from her. Neither will Internal Affairs. She might even be considered an accessory to the gargoyles' vigilantism (though that probably won't be an issue itself for a while - as long as the gargoyles are thought of as savage beasts, their actions would certainly not be interpreted as vigilantism).
Todd Jensen

<Matt> Btw, Matt, I'm not sure if you remember this but I wanted to thank you for answering me when I asked who made those nifty Phoenix Gate charms this year @ the Gathering. Now, that I think about it, it was Aaron; Aaron M. I'm retarded for asking since his initials are inscribed on the back of my Phoenix Gate piece >_< Anyway, I just want to send a shoutout to Aaron M for making those neat Phoenix Gate charms and most of all, for your badass Jackal outfit!! Loved the glowing red eye and the claws, dude; the whole costume was the shizzie XD If you can read this, we should chat it up sometime ^^
VoLpE - [sailorx78 at hotmail dot com]
"What's the matter? Never seen a cybernetic jackal before?"

9th or 10th depending on who is counting and I guess it would be away we go on with the show.
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]

7th ;)

Hmm, good topic choice there, Greg B. No doubt in my mind that there will be repercussions. I'm sure the police force wouldn't like it. As far as her family, Mrs. Maza seemed pretty okay w/ the Gargoyles and also, the Maza family still accepted Talon/Derek after the transformation. So I think with people that are close to Elisa would be okay w/ the relationship but the more exposed (media, police, common citizens, etc) wouldn't take it so warmly.

VoLpE - [sailorx78 at hotmail dot com]
"What's the matter? Never seen a cybernetic jackal before?"

8th
VickyUK - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]

I think I'll present a topic for discussion, and frankly, this is one I'm a little surprised that we've never speculated on, or discussed before.

Do you think Elisa's relationship with Goliath will ever become public knowledge? And if so, what do you think the consequences will be for her?

Will she become a HUGE target for every wack job out there? From enemies of the gargoyles to Quarrymen to overly zealous crazies (the type that kill gay people for their orientation).

I think we can all agree that she'll become a media circus all on her own. I'm sure the late night comedians would have a field day. I think we can all imagine the David Letterman Top Ten List; or Stephen Colbert putting her On Notice.

On that note:
http://wikiality.wikia.com/Elisa_Maza

On bigger topics, would it destroy her career? I tend to think so.

Would her family suffer from any fallout?

It makes me wonder.

Hell, just thinking about this makes her actions in "Invitation Only" beyond understandable.

Greg Bishansky

Six6th
Charisma82 - [charisma82 at clearwire dot net]
"The alien mothership is in orbit here. If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate." -Zap Brannigan

I plead the 5TH!
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" -Sevarius, 'Louse'

4th~!!
The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>X_X)> Headache...

Third!!
Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible . . . I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka

Second!
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

Whoo-hoo! Foist!
Guardian - [Guardian105 at gmail dot com]