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Gargoyles

The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending January 25, 2010

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Purplegoldfish>I think L.T. makes a great point, I don't think it was on anyone's mind to shut you down, at least I didn't, I just think you were making a big deal out of something I don't see all that important. That's just me. I can see where you come from now, especially since you pointed out that it'd be a big issue to other people you know, rather than it just being yourself that has a problem with it. I just figured it wouldn't be as big of a deal to someone who's a more avid fan of the series (not that it should be that big of a factor, I just assumed. I totally understand that your morals outweigh your fandom, and they should. I just don't understand the reason behind your problem with the cross, seems trivial to me, and me alone.)

I also agree that it could be taken both ways, considering it does kinda look like he's trying to break off the top of the steeple, and Matt's earlier comment that it looks somewhat phallic. Regardless, I think it's an issue that is only there if you're looking for it. I think a lot of people are quick to criticize nowadays. Still, I do think everyone is entitled to their opinion. I have no problem with that whatsoever, as long as they're not forcing it upon me, and you weren't at all.

My apologies if you took offense from my post, it wasn't intended. I personally try to avoid arguments. I'm usually more curious about people's views on arguments rather than criticizing them for what opinions they hold. If I ever seem involved in a dispute, it's probably for informative reasons, I actually hate getting caught up in debate. I also hope you don't feel too badly towards the Gargoyles fanbase, it's one of the more civilized one's I've come in contact with. (probably one of the oldest ones I've seen as well, no offense, I'm involved here and at a Pixar forum. Not too many adults there)

lvl27-cubone
Does the sky need a name? Does the river?

Anthrokid> Because he was never left to guard Demona. The DNA was acquired by those little mosquitoes in her belt. So, it wasn't available to her.

Now, Thailog has all their DNA.

Greg Bishansky
"So, take yourself down off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge and get over it." -Christopher Titus

Why was Bronx never cloned? I mean he's just as much as a gargoyle as the rest of the Manhattan clan.
Anthrokid
All things are true, but do you believe in them too?

If anyone in here has facebook, feel free to add Electric Tiki Design to your list of groups to check out more pictures of their work, including some awesome shots of the Goliath statue!

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=46501741409

Anthony Tini

Rebel- Thank you. That is exactly what I meant. Yes almost everyone who would see it would just focus on THAT. I know them, no one else here does. Not that they're right, but I don't want to deal with it. Plus it's really not to my tastes either.
Purplegoldfish

Alright, there's a lot of misunderstanding here. I guess I'm good at that. Well it least it got the room busy again. I am not offended by the actual statue,whether it's presenting a deliberate message or not. I am just upset because I've been looking forward to displaying it for a long time, and in good conscious I can't display this, not in my grandparents' house, and I don't want to pay all that money (which I don't really have anyway) to have it just collect dust in a box. Do you understand what I'm saying?

I'm sorry about the Gathering comment, that was out of line. I probably would never have gone anyway since I have Avoidant personality disorder. Kind of self-explanatory.

Purplegoldfish

Wow.
Harlan Phoenix

I've got to agree with PurpleGoldFish here. None of the rest of us knows anything about her family and how they'd react to something like this. If she thinks they'd find it offensive, then I'm going to have to assume she knows what she's talking about. It doesn't make one bit of difference whether or not they would be "justified" in being offended. They're her family and this is a figurine. It's obvious which would have a higher priority, even if the figurine hasn't done anything "wrong" and even if her family members would be overreacting if they got offended. I wouldn't buy a figurine if I knew I'd have to hide it every time relatives come to visit, either.

To respond to your query, PurpleGoldFish, I can assure you that I would not buy this statue if it featured Goliath on top of a synagogue with a Torah. Actually, I'm not Christian either, and the cross puts me off a bit. I don't see why it couldn't have been something completely and totally secular. The main reason why I won't be buying this statue is because of the price tag (times are tight and I'm in college). But I might have bought it anyway if it didn't have a cross on it, because I might be willing to fork over the cash if I absolutely loved the statue. The cross doesn't offend me, but it is the main reason why I don't love this statue.

Rebel

It's just a building. Do Orthodox Jews walking around NYC get offended every time they pass a Christian church? Were people offended by St. Damien's Cathedral in the final episodes of Season 2?
Patrick
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Because everyone responds to religious symbolism differently, even if it's not remotely implied. I figured they chose the rooftop of a church for the fact gargoyles are often built into the exterior decor of churches, especially older ones, and nothing more. Besides, the dark, brooding figure on top of the church's tallest spire has become a convention in art and sculpture, ala Daredevil and Spawn. I personally have no problem with it. I do have a slight problem with the coloring and the brow indeed is a little off, including Goliath's eyes, but I think it's much better than the Randy Bowen statue if only for the single fact it's closer to his animation model.
The Barracuda

I...don't understand how it could possibly be offensive. Really.

Someone explain this to me.

Harlan Phoenix

Purplegoldfish> As a Christian I understand that some may see something as an offense, but just because a religious verse, building or object is used in a product/program doesn't mean that the makers are going for a religious statement or are looking to dismiss a certain religion.
Antiyonder

Purplegoldfish: I'm not thrilled with his face either, or his skin color. He looks a little too blue to me. Also, his wings are slightly off-model.

By the way, I never meant to offend you. No hard feelings?

D. Taina

Sorry for the double post. Looking at the image again, I should have said "snap the cross" instead of "wrest". But otherwise I still get the same impression. I also second the notion that removing the cross carefully (and/or the sidebars of it) would not be incredibly difficult in this case. Which, again, is not to say that anyone should feel they must buy it and do that.
L.T. Williams

Purplegoldfish - I think you're entitled to your opinion and your choice of purchases. But that cuts both ways. I don't want to add to the chorus of people who are telling you what to think or do, but it also seems to me that you raised an issue and people are, clumsily or not, simply responding to that issue with THEIR opinions on the subject. If they made it too personal, I don't think that was the intent. Your leap to a dis of the Gathering seems a bit outrageous. I can guarantee you from personal experience that the antics of this comment room are WAY less inviting than anything that has ever taken place at any of the handful of Gatherings I attended. The Gathering was always quite welcoming and wonderful, even when I knew absolutely no one there. This comment room -- not always so much. Yet you must enjoy the comment room at least to some degree, or you wouldn't continue to post here. Same with me actually.

Anyway, back to the sculpture. I also didn't notice the cross right away, but now that you mention it, there's no doubt it is a cross. But I hardly see it as promoting Christianity. And I doubt most Christians would see it that way. It almost looks like he's attempting to wrest the cross OFF the building. A sculpture that shows an image of a demonic looking creature wresting a cross could just as easily be seen as anti-Christian. Which is, of course, not my attempt to tell you to buy the thing. Just my opinion of the effect of the image when put in the light of the cross (which admittedly didn't even register to me when I first glanced at it.)

L.T. Williams

Purplegoldfish - I understand your concerns. being that the statue isn't finalized, maybe now that you've aired your concerns here, they'll make the change. I don't personally see an issue myself, but if the company feels that they might offend a certain section of the population - they'll make the change. Maybe add a N S E W to it and make it a weather vein instead. Either way they choose to do it, it doesn't bother me in the least. I just like the added dimension to the design it brings and only hope that it isn't flimsy and will break easily.
Wingless

The statue emphasizes a certain religion? Here I thought it was emphasizing Goliath.

Boy do I feel like a dumbass.

Harlan Phoenix

I'm not all that thrilled with Goliath's face either. Am I allowed to say that?
Purplegoldfish

Okay wut? For some strange reason I'm being accused of being intolerant when I'm just expressing my OPINION. This isn't some random scene in the show where Goliath lands on a steeple, I wouldn't give a crap about that. I wasn't offended by the biblical references in the comic, or the recent radio play (though a lot of the Spider-man stuff bored me ahem). This is a sculpture. It's deliberately designed by an artist. That is definitely a religious cross because it's on a steeple. I don't expect everyone to understand my dilemna, but I expected some more respect. I'm just saying that I don't want to buy it and why. That's it.

Look at it this way. If the sculpture depicted Goliath holding the Torah on top of a Synagogue, would you pay upwards of 200 dollars for it? Maybe you would, but I'm betting a lot of you wouldn't. And that's fine and perfectly understandable. Quite frankly, I probably wouldn't want to buy it either.

And uh, regarding that South Park episode...talk about apples and oranges. I like that ep, it's funny and it's true. But this sculpture is not supposed to be a Christmas ornament.

See the last post was all I was going to say on this matter but I feel like I'm being attacked here. You're the ones making a huge deal,not me. Geeze, I'm kind of glad that I've never been to a Gathering now.

Purplegoldfish

I'd have to agree, I think pointing fingers at religious symbols is a bit outlandish. It's not even an ornate fixture on the sculpt, it could easily be seen as a lightning rod or weather vane. If it were a bit more decorative and elaborate, there might be some grounds for calling it a religious cross. I think you're looking too much into it.

Depending on what happens tonight, I might be starting Season 2 with my friend, not sure yet. If that doesn't happen, I'll probably just go over Awakening with the commentary, and check out the features on disc 2. We'll see.

lvl27-cubone
Does the sky need a name? Does the river?

I have to agree with Greg B and Wingless here. When I saw the pic, I didn't even think that was a cross. I thought that was a lightning rod, and a pretty cool one at that. Honestly, I don't see what the big deal is. Not everything that looks like a cross is meant to be religious imagery. I guess the letter "t" is offensive, too?
D. Taina

I am suddenly reminded of the first "South Park" Christmas episode. Remember that one? Everyone turned into a PC thug, and complained and complained and complained until they ended up with the dullest, most boring holiday pageant on the planet.

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/103765

Greg Bishansky
"So, take yourself down off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge and get over it." -Christopher Titus

Purplegoldfish - You're a great person, without a doubt. I enjoy our discussions. Having said that, I really hope that rant was sarcasm. I have to agree with Greg B on that one, if it wasn't, it was a little over the top. Looking at the statue, and seeing the cross, I didn't even think religion. I though weather vein or lightning rod. Even if it were a religious cross-do you think Gargoyles are going to avoid landing on churches, synagogues or mosques because of what they are? They're just another roof - a landing pad - a place to rest. Religion has nothing to do with it. Besides, I think Gargoyles-if anything, is about accepting differences, not shunning them or having to hide them. Has your family ever seen the show? if so what do they think?
You many not wnat to modify the statue, but what can I say, It is what it is.

Wingless

Greg: Uhm, how am I overracting, and how do you know it's "beyond me?" You don't know me that well.

Look, I don't have a lot of money, and this is not a cheap trinket. It's not fair that it's designed to emphasize a particular religion-that's not what Gargoyles is about. I don't want to feel the need to hide the thing every time a relative comes to visit me. I'm put off by it, mmkay? I'm allowed.

I couldn't spend that kind of money then break it apart either. Ah well, I'm working on my own Goliath sculpture out of sculpey, it won't look as good but it will be one of a kind lol.

Purplegoldfish

Greg Bishansky> Yeah, I think Demona is a good bet on a followup sculpt, I think it'd be a good one to do as well. And with a giant gun, she'd look pretty wicked, although I'm not a huge Demona fan. I hardly ever find myself really liking villains very much.
lvl27-cubone
Does the sky need a name? Does the river?

Purplegoldfish: Carefully cut the cross' side pieces and turn it into a spire. Or cut the entire cross off altogether.
The Barracuda

PURPLEGOLDFISH> I think you are beyond overreacting to this.
Greg Bishansky

Electric Tiki Goliath-Nooooo what is with the religious symbolism?? arghhh! I like the statue, but the cross makes me uneasy. Gargoyles spans all cultures and religions and I've always loved that but- but this isn't fair. How can I display this? I live with conservative Jews. I can't spend that kind of money on something with a HUGE CROSS on it--I just can't. I'm surprised that Greg Weisman okayed this design. I mean he could have been holding on to ANYTHING!! But this is deliberately symbolic and it's very disconcerting.
Purplegoldfish

One thing I'd look forward to see when/if Dark Ages is published is how Demona felt about Iago's/Coldsteel's attempt to midlead Coldstone/Othello. Though I think that Greg mentions that Demona knew that Desdemona was no threat to their relationship.
Antiyonder

Chirp, chirp, chirp, chirp........ Last post before the reset I guess.
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]

I hope the next one is Demona. If anyone deserves the second statue after Goliath, she does. Hopefully holding a big gun ;)
Greg Bishansky

Audra>Haha, sculpts of the entire clan would be amazing, I'd be pulling for one of Hudson, maybe with Bronx included. :) Maybe if this one gets a warm reception, they'd be willing to do more of em, at least we can hope.
lvl27-cubone
Does the sky need a name? Does the river?

I am so curious about the Elektric Tiki Goliath, like how big is it, and how much it will cost? I would really like one, but I sooooo wish a one for Brooklyn would be made, Brooklyn is my favorite. <3
Audra - [birdygirl85 at hotmail dot com]
I <3 Brooklyn

Wow! I love the angled 'Gargoyles' logo blending into the ground. It seems almost Art Deco.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

I certainly like it-and hope to get one if I can afford to. Would be nice to replace my Kenner ultimate goliath figure-which is quite mis shapen(tho I can't get rid of it, since the wing is signed by Keith David!) ^_^
Wingless

ANONYMOUS - I think that Shari is talking here about the consequences of Goliath's meeting Coldstone in Tibet - and the fruit is Coldstone and Coldfire helping Hudson, Lexington, the London gargoyles and Macbeth against Coldsteel and Coyote, and afterwards rejoining the clan.
Todd Jensen

Matt> I noticed that, too. :/

His brown and face is a little misshapen, I think. But I don't care. And same goes for the color. Yah, I think he is too... blue. More lavender, yes.

But Is till want one! It'll look GREAT next to Chip, Dale and Gadget!

battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

I have a quick question...after reading all the comics theres one thing im still confused with..."the seeds that were soan that have yet to bear fruit" what is Shari talking about here, and have we seen the "fruit" yet
Anonymous

Paul>Yeah, I realized that I got the Coyote diamond and the eye mixed up like 5 minutes after I posted that. The Edge revolves around Xanatos framing the clan for the robbery, and the battle around the statue of Liberty. I was tired, got the two episodes confused.

Antiyonder>A dark ages spin off comic would make me SO HAPPY! Disney better do it.

That tiki sculpt looks pretty great. I think they eyes could be fixed up a bit, but otherwise, fantastic work. Nice to see we finally got a closeup. :)

lvl27_cubone
Does the sky need a name? Does the river?

I like the model a lot. My only complaint is that something about Goliath's brow seems off.

And I find it hilarious that Goliath's pose seems somewhat masturbatory and that steeple almost phallic.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" -Sevarius, 'Louse'

NICE! My one tiny gripe is that I wish he were a little more purple/lavender. But it could well just be the photography and even if it's not, the color isn't so off that it would be a dealbreaker for me.
Demonskrye - [<---"Little Nemo" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

Nice! I've been waiting for a decent close-up shot and we're even treated to a color mock-up. Yeah, I think I'll be getting one of these (unless the price is insanely prohibitive).
The Barracuda

ELEKTRIC TIKI GARGOYLES! tHIS IS awesome!!!

http://www.electrictiki.com/classic%20heroes/gargoyles.html

i AM SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO BUYING ONE!!!

battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

Todd> Keep in mind that Malcolm also had the aid of the entire Wyvern Clan and the Archmage when building Castle Wyvern. Their assistance could surely speed construction. And of course the foundation of ruins helps too.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" -Sevarius, 'Louse'

Oh well, that's too bad about not having the conventions any more. I was going to donate a signed shirt from the first one that has never been worn.
thenumber1crab - [thenumber1crab at yahoo dot com]

I'd certainly enjoy reading the "Dark Ages" spin-off graphic novel, if Greg gets to write it. As I've said before, the medieval portions of "Gargoyles" were one of my favorite parts, right from the start.

(One detail that might not get explored in the spin-off much, but which intrigues me, is the building of Castle Wyvern. I noticed that Castle Wyvern in "Vows" (set in 975) looks complete, but Prince Malcolm and Hudson made their alliance in 971, meaning that they couldn't have started work on the castle before that - and in the Middle Ages, it would be a remarkable accomplishment to get a castle built that quickly. When I asked Greg about it, he said that it was a long and complicated story, but among other factors, there were ruins already at Wyvern Hill in 971 that apparently were incorporated into the familiar castle. After that, I became curious about those ruins, indicating that someone else had built a fortress at Wyvern Hill even before Prince Malcolm. I even wondered, though I'm biased, whether those ruins were left over from King Arthur's reign - though I'm not certain that Arthur's authority would have extended far into Scotland.

There are many other appealing possibilities for "Dark Ages", as well. Hudson coming to the fore (since he was clan leader until 984), giving us the opportunity to see more of his skills. The story of Goliath's maturing into a worthy successor to Hudson and fine leader. More of Demona's descent into darkness. And the trio as hatchlings, which should be amusing.

Todd Jensen

Cubone> I think it'd be really cool, if the series continues that is, if they do a spin-off series back in the 900's touching on stuff like Hudson's origins, Goliath as a hatchling, just stuff before the Magus casts the spell. Could elaborate a lot on Robbie, etc. I'd really enjoy that.

Actually, Greg does have plans for a Dark Ages spinoff. It's set during the early years in Castle Wyvern. Hudson is the leader. Goliath, Demona and the three Gargoyles known as Coldstone, Coldfire and Coldsteel in their teen years. Brooklyn, Broadway and Lexington are hatchlings. The Archmage would regularly appear given his status as Malcolm's advisor.

Infact, in addition to doing some more present day stories, Greg plans to do a Dark Ages story should the Graphic Novels continue.

Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
Algernon's comment about Norman Osborn: One of the neat things about Dark Reign is that it gives Osborn the chance to expand his horizons beyond tormenting a twenty nine year old who still lives with his mom.

My person theory )based on nothing) is that the Eye changed appearance over the centuries in order to better reflect its value and what mortals considered valuable at the time. It may have looked like Odin's actual eye at one point, and I like to think it looked closer to the more Nordic design from the video game, but to avoid being discarded or destroyed (if such a thing is possible), it eventually became the more valuable looking, Egyptian inspired Art Deco piece we know it as today.
Demonskrye - [<---"Little Nemo" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

PAUL> I tend to think that the Eye was reshaped into it's jewel form at some point after Odin gave it up, either by Mimir or someone after him. Perhaps that's what the Weird Sisters meant by the Eye being "forged" on Avalon.
Algernon

Paul -- Totally just musings on my part, but I image the Eye removed from Odin (in one way or another) eventually took that form because gold and gem simply because those last longer than a fleshy eye . . . and that's said with the knowledge that the Third Race choose the forms they appear in.

The only out-of-story critique of the Eye that I can recall from one of Greg Weisman's rambles was that he thought the Eye looked more Egyptian than Norse . . .

Personally, I like the Eye's desgin d:

Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible . . . I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka

Please forgive the double-post, but I just looked at the images at http://gargoyles.dracandros.com/Eye_of_Odin and found that it does look more like an eyeball than I remembered (albeit one made of some sort of light blue, transparent mineral). I still don't get why Odin chose that shape, size, and color for his disembodied eye (or even IF he did), but it isn't as weird as I thought.
Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]

Correction: The Coyote Diamond, not the Eye of Odin, was introduced in "Her Brother's Keeper." (The Eye was introduced in "The Edge.")

Speaking of the Eye of Odin... since it turned out to be one of Odin's actual eyeballs, why didn't it look more like an eyeball? I know that the Children of Oberon can take on any physical form they want to (unless Oberon says otherwise, as he did with Puck), so I must guess that Odin chose to make his eyeballs look like that when he had that one plucked out, but it still seems weird to me.

Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]

thenumber1crab> What 2010 Gathering?

The con is over. At least for now, as well as the foreseeable future.

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

Does anyone know who is in charge of the 2010 Gathering? I have something for the auction I wish to donate.
thenumber1crab - [thenumber1crab at yahoo dot com]

Cubone> While not the focus, Hudson has some noteworthy scenes in Gargoyles #4, 5 and receives good panel time 7-9.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
Algernon's comment about Norman Osborn: One of the neat things about Dark Reign is that it gives Osborn the chance to expand his horizons beyond tormenting a twenty nine year old who still lives with his mom.

Apologies for the double post. My friend and I stuck it out and watched season 1 entirely in 1 sitting. Love it! Great stuff, and it was kinda funny, considering we noticed how everything in the show is highly explosive, haha. I think my fave episode was Long Way to Morning, I had totally forgotten about that one. Great backstory for Hudson, I just remembered it told during season 2 when they meet the archmage at Avalon. I totally forgot that they introduced Derek and Matt in season 1, but it's a good thing, at least regarding Matt.

It'll be a while until I can watch season 2, at least on my own time, thanks to my internet being crummy. Regardless, I'll get to it at some point, and I definitely plan on supporting Greg, I'll be undoubtedly picking up Season 2 Part 1 when I can, as well as the comics.

Got a kick out of Donald Duck's cameo, Brooklyn's throw to Star Wars, and the best 2 lines of the night, "We don't know what that thing is, it might explode!" - Elisa to Matt, The Edge, and "I don't remember explosions in Bambi!" - Lex, Reawakening.

As for the episodes themselves, Deadly Force, I remember very well, probably because it's the famous canceled episode, so it was notable to me back then. Enter MacBeth I remembered very well, and I had totally forgotten that MacBeth was in season 1 at all. I kinda thought it'd touch on his connection to Demona, but I'm glad it didn't. The Edge was okay, just a good solid action episode for the most part. Standard good versus evil, I think every show needs a few episodes like that. Plus, the introduction of Matt was great, I really like him.

Of course, Hudson being my fave, I loved Long Way to Morning. I think it could have been a bit better, and I'm annoyed with Catherine's misunderstanding of Malcom's illness and blaming Hudson, but it's good for the plot. Just irks me that it wasn't addressed in favor of Hudson, but that's just me being a fanboy. Still, great stuff.

Her Brother's Keeper was nice, introduced the Eye of Odin, but not with any detail, and put a bit more of Jackal and Hyena in there, the 2 nuts of the pack. The dynamic between Elisa and Derek was alright, but I was kinda annoyed at how forced the parallel between them and the trio arguing seemed. Still, great episode, I particularly noted the conversation between Fox and Elisa. Fox's fascination with David was kinda funny to me, considering how alike they seem, and of course, they get married later. Reawakening was great, I've always really liked Coldstone/Othello, but less so in season 2, with Coldfire and Coldsteel. His resolution when him and Goliath fall off the bridge was a great moment, and the season ending was well done. I thought it ended well, but I thought there was a more closed ending regarding what happened to Coldstone. Oh well, that comes in season 2. Had a fantastic night with my buddy, great season.

lvl27_Cubone
Does the sky need a name? Does the river?

Ahh, the Mayan clan, Guatemala. My bad, I forgot. I knew it was South America, just forgot where exactly. And yeah, I really liked the New Olympian clan, lots of cool stuff there. I've always been into Greek and Roman mythology and stuff like that, as well as medieval stuff. One thing I really love about this show. :)

I think it'd be really cool, if the series continues that is, if they do a spin-off series back in the 900's touching on stuff like Hudson's origins, Goliath as a hatchling, just stuff before the Magus casts the spell. Could elaborate a lot on Robbie, etc. I'd really enjoy that.

Also, just watched the entire first disc again, this time with a good friend of mine. We're just about to start disc 2. Pretty stoked. He watched the show a lot when he was younger, and even remembered stuff like Avalon, and Future Tense. :D

lvl27_Cubone
Does the sky need a name? Does the river?

Cubone> "Griff's just awesome. Always liked him."

Join the club. :D Griff rules.

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

Cubone -- just fyi, Zafiro and his clan are considered the Mayan Clan, located in ChacIxChel, Guatemala.

As for clans met on the World Tour, I would have enjoyed getting a glimpse of the New Olympian Clan in "The New Olympians" . . . I think its been said in here some time before, but there's some decent reason to believe that that they are far more isolationist than the London Clan ever were.

While the London clan did forget their duty to protect their city, the New Olympians don't even seem to bother interacting with the rest of the island. Even when (word potentially reaching them that) there were visiting gargoyles, they apparently remained on Mount Thanatos.

Not really picky if we got a glimpse of them at their most isolated or when they might be reawakened again (my bet would be that they don't until an older Terry Chung takes an unintentional vacation there) . . . either way, they appear to be (and mostly through non-evidence, hehe) living lives radically different from the remaining living clans.

Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible, I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka

I personally really liked the Brazilian clan, with Jade, Turquesa, Zafiro, they were a really cool clan, plus the unique capability of them to be alive during the day would be interesting to play with. I also like the England clan. Griff's just awesome. Always liked him.
lvl27_Cubone
Does the sky need a name? Does the river?

I just found out...Brent Spiner, voice of Puck, will be at Florida's Megacon in March!!!!! I am so excited :D

http://www.megaconvention.com/

SIren

Sorry about the double but its obvious I did not proofread. Here are the corrections:
"Wouldn't it be cool. . ."

"Thats not the reason I have broken my lurk."

"I dont know if it has been brought up. . ."

Lurker

I personally dont think Staghart and Lex are mates. I think Stag is how Lex will realize he is gay. I could be wrong though. Wouldn't it be cook if Staghart and Lex were mates then Staghart moved to Manhattan? Nuts!

Thats not the reason I ahve broken my lurk.

Here's a question, although I dont know if it have been brought up before. Talk of the World Tour has squeezed my mind grapes a bit. If you could follow the storyline of one clan other than the Manhattan clan, (and Dark Ages) who would it be and why? This includes clans that have not been introduced yet.

Lurker

Lex got to go to London (as one of two gargoyles, Hudson being the other) in the comic, and made friends there with Staghart (with a great deal of speculation about the exact nature of their friendship from the readers), but I don't think that he got to shine that much there either - he was taken out so quickly by Coyote in the battle, for one thing.

Maybe Lexington will get a big role in the "Alex gets kidnapped" story, if Greg gets to tell it.

Todd Jensen

Or I should say as H.I. used to. Whatever or whoever that was
Madame M

Linor posts like Hi used to....
Madame M

I'm not a big fan of the world tour arc, mainly because I don't really like the clan separated for as long as they are. Just annoys me for some reason. I do enjoy a lot of the stuff that happens though, and the span of the series really does grow dramatically, with stuff like South America (Brazil? I forget), England, and Easter Island (Guardian I believe, I was surprised how much Greg took out of Nottak with 2198) introducing some of my favorite characters. Still, just the fact that the clan is apart for most of season 2 irritates me, it makes the episodes feel a bit broken up.
lvl27_cubone
Does the sky need a name? Does the river?

Demonskye> The second season was much longer and dealt with a broader range of characters and topics, but intentionally or not, I think Lex got kind of shortchanged.

Considering his opinion about the Avalon World Tour arc, I'd say Thom Adcox agrees with you. Heh.

Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

The first season makes an effort to give each of the major characters an episode that primarily focused on them. The second season was much longer and dealt with a broader range of characters and topics, but intentionally or not, I think Lex got kind of shortchanged. There are at least two episodes that are primarily about Brooklyn, a Broadway episode, one or two episodes that strongly feature Hudson, and even an episode centered on Bronx. But I don't think are any second season episodes that can be called Lex's more than any other character's. You could argue that "Leader of the Pack" is partly about Lex, though there's a lot going on in that episode and Lex figuring out where his priorities should lie is only one of several major plot threads. Lex has his moments of heroism in season two, but for some reason, he never really gets a whole episode that lets him shine.
Demonskrye - [<---"Little Nemo" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

Ahh, I forgot about A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time, I like that one. I also remember The Hound of Ulster. Definitely been too long since I've seen a lot of the show.
lvl27_cubone
Does the sky need a name? Does the river?

Just start up the next disc, Cubone. You'll get your Broadway focus right off the bat and your Hudson focus about halfway through. As to season 2, "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time," "The Silver Falcon," and "The Price" are all in the Volume 1 DVD release and focus on Hudson and/or Broadway. "Kingdom," the last episode of the set, is about the Manhattan Clan without the World Tour group, though it's more about Brooklyn than anyone. The second half of the second season has the Bronx-centric "The Hound of Ulster."
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

cubone> Broadway's season one feature episode will be the next one you watch and he has a couple more big moments in the first season. Bronx has a feature episode in season two and is a lot more in the spotlight during the Avalon World Tour episodes. Hudson has a feature episode a little later in season one and a good one in the first half of season two.
Demonskrye - [<---"Little Nemo" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

Finished up disc 1 with The Thrill of the Hunt and Temptation. I kinda like that they highlight Lex and Brooklyn, as well as introducing the Pack and Demona's return. I like that they're both action driven for the most part, although it's rather slow in The Thrill of the Hunt. There's also a lot of exhibition in Temptation, but they're both great.

I never really saw Dingo as a total bad guy, he just seems like he's with the pack, Jackal, Hyena, and Wolf have always seemed like the really messed up ones (and of course, we find out they are later), and Fox seems like more of a cunning schemer, which fits, obviously. Makes her a good match for Xanatos later as well, hehe. I had forgotten about Xanatos's setup to get the clan and the Pack to bump heads, season 1 Xanatos ticks me off! :P

As for Temptation, it kinda improves my opinion of Brooklyn a bit, he's actually my least favorite in the clan (and I'm kinda curious as to why not many people show love for Broadway, just something I've noticed. Hudson's a bit like that too, but not as much), but I still like him. He just seems like a show-off, and he's kinda arrogant. Also, I wasn't a big Bronx fan, but just his presence through the series is really cheering me up, it's kinda cool how likable he is just from little mannerisms.

Back to the episode itself, I find it kinda funny that the trio REALLY should not drive motorcycles, and does anyone else think the Grimorum gets seriously abused throughout the episode? Kinda crazy, you think it'd be treated better considering how important it is.

I'll figure this out eventually, but I forget, are there really any episodes that highlight Hudson (besides the one regarding the Archmage getting the Eye, Grimorum, and Phoenix Gate), Bronx (outside TGC), and Broadway? Goliath, Lex, and Brooklyn seem to be the most focused gargoyles in the show, but I haven't seen anything outside of season 1 in a few years, I don't remember too much besides a few things from the world tour.

Should catch a few more episodes tomorrow, after class and an Up fan commentary I'm participating in. Again, good to be back. I haven't seen anything on disc 2 in a LOOOONG time.

lvl27_cubone
Does the sky need a name? Does the river?

Linor> When you spell 'Intelligible' as 'intedlligable', that doesn't make it Intelligible either. :P
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

Some of the people in here are just way way too hard on others.
Jasmine - [clarkejasmine05 at yahoo dot com]

my thing is intedlligable, but that's not the reason it's being posted 5 times, there's something wrong with my computer, i'm sorry, there's some sort of error that's causing it to post it 4 or 5 times, i don't mean to do it, guys forgive me?
Linor.
Linor.

Posting the same thing five times in a row doesn't make it any more intelligible.
Patrick
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

how am i putting your life at grave risk? all i want to do is have a pleasent conversation.
Linor.
Linor.

how am i putting your life at grave risk? all i want to do is have a pleasent conversation.
Linor.
Linor.

how am i putting your life at grave risk? all i want to do is have a pleasent conversation.
Linor.
Linor.

You are putting my life at grave risk.
Harlan Phoenix

why, i thought that was a good idea, zoe saldena as diane maza, why would it make you commit suicide why am i such a bad influence? am i not wanted here?
Linor.
Linor.

why, i thought that was a good idea, zoe saldena as diane maza, why would it make you commit suicide why am i such a bad influence? am i not wanted here?
Linor.
Linor.

why, i thought that was a good idea, zoe saldena as diane maza, why would it make you commit suicide why am i such a bad influence? am i not wanted here?
Linor.
Linor.

Linor>Everything you say brings me closer and closer to suicide.
Harlan Phoenix

okay let's move on to something else, hey guys, i've just seen Avatar, and i've seen Zoe Saldena's performance, i've also seen her performance as uhura in star trek, and do you know what i think, she should play a young Diane Maza, in A Timedancer Episode if it gets adopted onto tv, she and Nichelle Nicholles shared the honors of playing uhura, they should both share the honors of playing elisa's mother as well though here in the same continuity , i think it would be awesome an episode of timedancer where brooklyn travels to the past and encounters diane when she was young, and maybe saves her, zoe saldena would be perfect for it, anyone agree?
Linor.
Linor.

okay let's move on to something else, hey guys, i've just seen Avatar, and i've seen Zoe Saldena's performance, i've also seen her performance as uhura in star trek, and do you know what i think, she should play a young Diane Maza, in A Timedancer Episode if it gets adopted onto tv, she and Nichelle Nicholles shared the honors of playing uhura, they should both share the honors of playing elisa's mother as well though here in the same continuity , i think it would be awesome an episode of timedancer where brooklyn travels to the past and encounters diane when she was young, and maybe saves her, zoe saldena would be perfect for it, anyone agree?
Linor.
Linor.

okay let's move on to something else, hey guys, i've just seen Avatar, and i've seen Zoe Saldena's performance, i've also seen her performance as uhura in star trek, and do you know what i think, she should play a young Diane Maza, in A Timedancer Episode if it gets adopted onto tv, she and Nichelle Nicholles shared the honors of playing uhura, they should both share the honors of playing elisa's mother as well though here in the same continuity , i think it would be awesome an episode of timedancer where brooklyn travels to the past and encounters diane when she was young, and maybe saves her, zoe saldena would be perfect for it, anyone agree?
Linor.
Linor.

okay let's move on to something else, hey guys, i've just seen Avatar, and i've seen Zoe Saldena's performance, i've also seen her performance as uhura in star trek, and do you know what i think, she should play a young Diane Maza, in A Timedancer Episode if it gets adopted onto tv, she and Nichelle Nicholles shared the honors of playing uhura, they should both share the honors of playing elisa's mother as well though here in the same continuity , i think it would be awesome an episode of timedancer where brooklyn travels to the past and encounters diane when she was young, and maybe saves her, zoe saldena would be perfect for it, anyone agree?
Linor.
Linor.

okay let's move on to something else, hey guys, i've just seen Avatar, and i've seen Zoe Saldena's performance, i've also seen her performance as uhura in star trek, and do you know what i think, she should play a young Diane Maza, in A Timedancer Episode if it gets adopted onto tv, she and Nichelle Nicholles shared the honors of playing uhura, they should both share the honors of playing elisa's mother as well, i think it would be awesome an episode of timedancer where brooklyn travels to the past and encounters diane when she was young, and maybe saves her, zoe saldena would be perfect for it, anyone agree?
Linor.
Linor.

okay let's move on to something else, hey guys, i've just seen Avatar, and i've seen Zoe Saldena's performance, i've also seen her performance as uhura in star trek, and do you know what i think, she should play a young Diane Maza, in A Timedancer Episode if it gets adopted onto tv, she and Nichelle Nicholles shared the honors of playing uhura, they should both share the honors of playing elisa's mother as well, i think it would be awesome an episode of timedancer where brooklyn travels to the past and encounters diane when she was young, and maybe saves her, zoe saldena would be perfect for it, anyone agree?
Linor.
Linor.

okay let's move on to something else, hey guys, i've just seen Avatar, and i've seen Zoe Saldena's performance, i've also seen her performance as uhura in star trek, and do you know what i think, she should play a young Diane Maza, in A Timedancer Episode if it gets adopted onto tv, she and Nichelle Nicholles shared the honors of playing uhura, they should both share the honors of playing elisa's mother as well, i think it would be awesome an episode of timedancer where brooklyn travels to the past and encounters diane when she was young, and maybe saves her, zoe saldena would be perfect for it, anyone agree?
Linor.
Linor.

okay let's move on to something else, hey guys, i've just seen Avatar, and i've seen Zoe Saldena's performance, i've also seen her performance as uhura in star trek, and do you know what i think, she should play a young Diane Maza, in A Timedancer Episode if it gets adopted onto tv, she and Nichelle Nicholles shared the honors of playing uhura, they should both share the honors of playing elisa's mother as well, i think it would be awesome an episode of timedancer where brooklyn travels to the past and encounters diane when she was young, and maybe saves her, zoe saldena would be perfect for it, anyone agree?
Linor.
Linor.

LINOR> "Oh my god, isn't thsre any one continuity to gargoyles, first the goliath chronicles then clan building then bad guys then the new tv show can't there ever be just one single continuity? It feels like a huge mess this way!"

You should try being a transformers fan...

http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/1/1d/Continuities.png

Algernon

Linor>We're not ignoring you, we're just tired of trying to argue a point you clearly already have a firm stand on. Debating about it when you don't want to change your opinion on it is just talking in circles. We're simply moving on to a different topic. No sense in just getting into a heated discussion that isn't going anywhere. Nothing personal against you, but you seem like you have your mind made up.

And yes, Clan Building is the continuation of the series, replacing Goliath Chronicles, no one said otherwise, he was just asking if you were talking about a TV adaptation of the comic, that's all. I don't think people have a problem with you being here, but we've been going back and forth on this thing for too long now, and we're still where it started. We just want to talk about something else.

lvl27_cubone
Does the sky need a name? Does the river?

what so i'm going to be ignored from now on, i'm saying a fact, what are you telling me that clan building is not canon, i thought that was the continuing of gargoyles, the actual canon, what if it was adopted onto tv it would be something else? oh my god, isn't thsre any one continuity to gargoyles , first the goliath chronicles then clan building then bad guys then the new tv show can't there ever be just one single continuity? it feels like a huge mess this way!
Linor.
Linor.

My favorite Awakening scene:

"We won dude!"
"...Dude?"

Harlan Phoenix

Every few weeks, something in this room reminds me of Winston Churchill's definition of a fanatic as "someone who can't change his mind and who won't change the subject".
Todd Jensen

He's arguing that Disney would allow the darker content in the comics in an animated series, but it doesn't seem worth arguing about. He's insistent on his opinion. No use in talking about it anymore, not really getting anywhere.

So, I just watched all of Awakening again, it's like an awesome 2 hour movie. Probably gonna finish off disc 1 of season 1 tomorrow (or later today technically). Gotta love Elisa going rambo and the attack on the labyrinth in parts 4 and 5. The attack on the tower seems too simple (well, all of them were, especially considering how big the firing squad was that Hudson and Bronx were up against) but they all were. Also, I think some of Hudson's lines are just there to emphasize that he's old and Scottish, "We'll be sitting ducks here right enough!" and "You need to be losing some weight, and that's a fact!" Haha. I think he's the most entertaining character in Awakening, if Broadway isn't. I really like how Goliath warms up to Elisa pretty quickly as well, and it's pretty amazing of her to trust Goliath's morals after the plane crash in part 5, instead of thinking he was in fact more vicious. Then again, I'm sure him saving her life twice before helps.

Good to be back into this series.

lvl27_cubone
Does the sky need a name? Does the river?

Your barely comprehensible typing isn't helped by your incomprehensible concept. I'm...still not entirely sure what the issue is. Are you assuming an animated Gargoyles revival would adapt Clan Building?
Harlan Phoenix

no what i mean is look greg written this already, why would disney change this, really, disney edit it if it was to be transfered to tv, why would it need to have a different plot a different diallouge different canon or anything, come on wasn't erasing the goliath chronicles already enough?
Linor.
Linor.

I think he has a point. My sister is a bastard child and that's in continuity.
Harlan Phoenix

no but this'll be alright, i know it, really okay so she couldn't say damn, but i'm sure they'll allow it for once to say bastard, because it's part of continuity, andmv\ovies and shows are the same, disney is always appropriate also sky high is about to become a show. and more.
Linor.
Linor.

or something.
Linor.
Linor.

or something.
Linor.
Linor.

or something.
Linor.
Linor.

Antiyonder here from the library.

Linor> A. Movies have more freedom that tv shows.
B. What Disney may consider unacceptable, other companies consider ok.
C. I already gave you proof from Greg himself, that he had limitations on what can and can't be done. If you're going to insist that information from somebody in the business is invalid, I can't think of anything that will convince you otherwise.

Anonymous

no, and no disney would be able to air it like that on the same channel as hannah montanah and phineas and ferb which i still wonder why disney won't give gargoyles as much time or attention as them. but no, it's like it years before, if people don't mind seeing this on justice league or batman, they won't mnd seeing this on gargoyles, besides they are planning to do a series with big high stuff, sky high basedc on the movie which contained little high stuff, so if that can be allowed so can this. but of course we know we know gargoyles is not coming back.
Linor.
Linor.

Apologies for the double post, but I wanted to clear this up. Disney already purchased Marvel, it happened a few months ago.
lvl27_cubone
Does the sky need a name? Does the river?

Linor> The point Antiyonder is trying to make is that sure, the darker content is liable to occur in a few films associated with Disney, such as Pirates, but this is daytime television on a kid's network we're talking about. We're not saying that Disney would restrict him, but the network is based on a young demographic. Disney would be in a serious dispute if some of the stuff we're talking about came on the same channel as Hannah Montana and Phineas and Ferb. There's a difference between stuff like lasers and punching, and actual blood, gore, and profanity. There's a system that has to be maintained to keep stuff like this appropriate for certain age groups, and neither Disney (who did set it up, but now there's network standards) nor Greg can do anything about it. It's not a matter if Disney lets him or not, it's a matter of him literally being unable to. There is no if, it CANNOT happen. If it did, especially nowadays, there'd be some sort of lawsuit down the line from some 6 year old's parents saying that the show is a bad influence, putting everyone involved in a serious mess.

It's not a matter of "I think they'll let him" or not, it just can't happen. It's a family network, and because of that, the restrictions stand. The end.

lvl27_cubone
Does the sky need a name? Does the river?

and no all of the other stuff were disney even touchstone, and if disney does buy Marvel, it'll be published under disney like how DC is under warner brothers.
Linor.
Linor.

well pirates of the caribbean was also something i'm just saying you don't have to respond, they had more mature stuff and other things or something,and that was disney so gargoyles can do it, i believe.
Linor.
Linor.

and marvel is mature of course, as is disney. nothing has or will change if they will buy marvel comics.
Linor.
Linor.

Linor> Since I can actually provide a fresh response, I will comment. Disney will produce racy material through other companies they own, but you will never find an R or M rated film under the Disney name. That's why they have Touchstone and Miramax.

And Gargoyles was produced by Disney. The comics produced by Marvel will be done under the Marvel name, not Disney. So therefore, they will not be compromising the family friendly image.

Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
Algernon's comment about Norman Osborn: One of the neat things about Dark Reign is that it gives Osborn the chance to expand his horizons beyond tormenting a twenty nine year old who still lives with his mom.

why is this the last time, am i annoying you guys, i'm just saying disney wouldn't do this, PBS yes, but not disney they bought power rangers and all of saban and digimon which contains alot of violence, in fact disney is offering to buy marvel comics which contains lots of blood, violence, gore and other stuff, so if disney would do that they would definetly alolw that in gargoyles i'm just saying!
Linor.
Linor.

why is this the last time, am i annoying you guys, i'm just saying disney wouldn't do this, PBS yes, but not disney they bought power rangers and all of saban and digimon which contains alot of violence, in fact disney is offering to buy marvel comics which contains lots of blood, violence, gore and other stuff, so if disney would do that they would definetly alolw that in gargoyles i'm just saying!
Linor.
Linor.

Linor> This is the last time I'm going to respond to this topic:

"Greg would not have to find another way around it he would be able to use it, like how they were able to show elisa being accidently wounded by broadway,"

Yeah, and the episode which you were refering to was banned and even upon airing was edited. The episode was produced in a decade in which Standards in Practices were lenient.

And the edits were far from a once in a while thing. A Darkwing Duck episode titled Hot Spells featured Gosalyn literally giving her dad's soul to Satan, and for that reason, Toon Disney never aired it.

The Ducktales episode in which Fenton Crackshell debuted (I think it was Liquid Assets) had a scene removed where Scrooge fired his gun at Fenton. An episode of Bonkers titled New Partners on the Block has never aired on Toon Disney, because of a criminal who has tends to blow up buildings (and did so onscreen).

An episode of Talespin in which Baloo is unknowingly delivering a bomb to the High Marshal of Thembria was banned from Toon Disney.

Infact, when asked if Elisa said Damn in Awakening Part 4, Greg himself even said that Standards and Practices wouldn't allow it:

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=49

Read the last paragraph for confirmation.

Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
Algernon's comment about Norman Osborn: One of the neat things about Dark Reign is that it gives Osborn the chance to expand his horizons beyond tormenting a twenty nine year old who still lives with his mom.

It's a quote by Xanatos from "Awakening, Part 3." I'm sure no offense was intended, but then, I didn't write the comment.

I think the comment says more about our cynicism than your lack thereof.

Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]

and when i was asking if i was being called naive i was talking to the person who told me my naivette was refreshing
Linor.
Linor.

No, Greg would not have to find another way around it he would be able to use it, like how they were able to show elisa being accidently wounded by broadway, they would be able to show Goliath and the others being wounded by thailog, look i see that gargoyles is going to be as far as it is right now, they're not getting anymore, well maybe just a bit more in the 2198 spinoff when they show the space spawn destroying an entire planet, but otherwise that's it, come on guys castaway dismissed his own sister, and that would be seen on television, you think that's appropriate to see one treat a family member like that, how much do you think this can get? greg does have the freedom, when disney did those edits it was only for occasions, otherwise they don't do it.
Linor.
Linor.

What I meant to say is that Disney took the word Terrorist out of City of Stone, Part 1.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
Algernon's comment about Norman Osborn: One of the neat things about Dark Reign is that it gives Osborn the chance to expand his horizons beyond tormenting a twenty nine year old who still lives with his mom.

are you saying i'm naive? are you insulting me? i love Gargoyles, i;m a fellow gargoyles fan, i'm also someone who's tired of Disney just doing Jonas Brothers, Hannah Montanah, Phineas And Ferb, Pirates Of The Caribbean and others, or something! i too want them to go back to Gargoyles or something! so why am i being made fun of? why?
Linor.
Linor.

Linor> but greg said in the 2008 gathering that he intends for gargoyles to be for all ages, and no he can do gun shots and the stabbing and the other stuff, and no duncan was stabbed. how'd you expect the dna collecting scheme to work without the blood and the being gutted,

Yes, he wrote it for all ages, but there is still a limit as to what can happen onscreen. As for collecting the DNA, he would have found a way around it (As he did with Duncan's death scene).

But to prove my point. When Gargoyles aired on Toon Disney, they actually banned Deadly Force for a while. Sure it airs now, but even then, they zoom in on Elisa's face to hide some of the bleeding.

After 9/11, City of Stone Part 1 actually took the word Terrorist out of a couple lines of dialogue.

If Disney was really going to let Greg have free reign, then those edits would never have happened.

Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
Algernon's comment about Norman Osborn: One of the neat things about Dark Reign is that it gives Osborn the chance to expand his horizons beyond tormenting a twenty nine year old who still lives with his mom.

are you saying i'm naive? are you insulting me? i love Gargoyles, i;m a fellow gargoyles fan, i'm also someone who's tired of Disney just doing Jonas Brothers, Hannah Montanah, Phineas And Ferb, Pirates Of The Caribbean and others, or something! i too want them to go back to Gargoyles or something! so why am i being made fun of? why?
Linor.
Linor.

That was me just below.
Algernon

LINOR> Your naivete is refreshing.

On a completely different note, there's been some new developments on the Spectacular Spider-Man front...

http://marvel.toonzone.net/news.php?action=fullnews&id=472

Anonymous

but greg said in the 2008 gathering that he intends for gargoyles to be for all ages, and no he can do gun shots and the stabbing and the other stuff, and no duncan was stabbed. how'd you expect the dna collecting scheme to work without the blood and the being gutted, d disney won't mind it, besides, if they do, i'd write letters to them and tell them that if they don't allow it i'll gather fans and many other people and rush the studio and give them a hard time until they allow it, but that's improbable since i know they'll do it, they're a great studio they will do it.
Linor.
Linor.

or something really!
Linor.
Linor.

or something really!
Linor.
Linor.

Pirates of the Carribean was PG-13 from the start. Gargoyles was/is officially targeted towards Boys between the age of 6-11.

Greg himself even stated that doing Gargoyles today with the same freedom he had back then would be impossible. For one thing, the series wouldn't be allowed to use the proper sound effect for real guns, so they sure as heck couldn't get away with stabbing someone onscreen.

Heck, even when Standards and Practices were lighter, they didn't allow Macbeth to stab Duncan onscreen (hence the use of that orb which caused him to burst into flames).

Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
Algernon's comment about Norman Osborn: One of the neat things about Dark Reign is that it gives Osborn the chance to expand his horizons beyond tormenting a twenty nine year old who still lives with his mom.

but it is true, and Disney would allow Greg, i know Disney, they're a great studio, like they allow naked or rum to be in pirates of the caribbean or sex to be in sky high or many age things in tron. they'll allow it. Gargoyles will be fine.
Linor.
Linor.

but it is true, and Disney would allow Greg, i know Disney, they're a great studio, like they allow naked or rum to be in pirates of the caribbean or sex to be in sky high or many age things in tron. they'll allow it. Gargoyles will be fine.
Linor.
Linor.

but it is true, and Disney would allow Greg, i know Disney, they're a great studio, like they allow naked or rum to be in pirates of the caribbean or sex to be in sky high or many age things in tron. they'll allow it. Gargoyles will be fine.
Linor.
Linor.

Linor> no the stabbing in the gut would be allowed, it's as appropriate as much as goliath being wounded by a steel clan robot which created thailog, and the bastard would be allowed too,

Just because you want it to be true, doesn't mean it is. The wound that Goliath got from the Steel Clan robot was literally a scratch which is less severe than a stabbing.

Do you have any proof that Greg would be given the freedom to do what you've suggested, perhaps?

Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
Algernon's comment about Norman Osborn: One of the neat things about Dark Reign is that it gives Osborn the chance to expand his horizons beyond tormenting a twenty nine year old who still lives with his mom.

does anyone know where i can get flyers or stuff from the previous gatherings? i'd like to have them?
Linor.
Linor.

no the stabbing in the gut would be allowed, it's as appropriate as much as goliath being wounded by a steel clan robot which created thailog, and the bastard would be allowed too, disney can bring gargoyles back to tv and they own gargoyles and no one else, and it'll be allowed, phineas and ferb are good like 90s shows but not as good as gargoyles, Gargoyles is top, i fell in love with the show the minute i saw the first few seconds of it, this show truly is something more than just a typical animated series. Heck Keith David loves his role of goliath over every other role he ever played, as does thom adcox, bill faggerbike, marina sirtis, and the others. This show is truly amazing. Thank you Greg Weisman for bringing us such a beautiful work of Art.
Linor.
Linor.

Linor> I really don't know what you're basing these assertions on. I like Disney too, but I don't believe they would ever make a new Gargoyles TV show with one character calling another a bastard and a villain stabbing the primary hero in the gut. If SLG got the comics license back, it would probably be much the same. If Disney published the comic themselves, maybe through Marvel, it might not be quite as mature. If it came back as a TV show, it would be toned down, no question. It's not that there aren't animated shows that contain that level of violence and language, but Disney has never gone in that direction. If they bring it back as a TV show, which is highly unlikely, they will almost certainly want something which is at least appropriate for the original stated target audience, boys 6 to 11.

This is a Gargoyles website. It's kind of a given that people here like Gargoyles. A lot. More than many other shows. Really not much need to ask, or try to convince anyone here how great Gargoyles is.

Demonskrye - [<---"Little Nemo" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

what do you mean?
Linor.
Linor.

what do you mean?
Linor.
Linor.

Linor> Come on, Gargoyles a better show, anyone agree?

I think you're preaching to the well-converted choir, man ;)

Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible . . . I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka

and practically i don't get phineas and ferb, i can't believe Disney prefers that over Gargoyles and gives them more time on Disney XD than they give Gargoyles, and a movie, Come on, Gargoyles a better show, anyone agree?
Linor.
Linor.

no disney's great, and they are going back to what they are or something i don't know, if gargoyles comes back they would have it the same. they wouldn't have bastard replaced with monster or anything like that.
Linor.
Linor.

Demonskrye>Yeah, that's what I kind of thought, and I didn't think about sales figures. The DVD's weren't advertised very well, and it was a few years ago but I really doubt that changes anything. And I totally agree with your position on Disney's view on animation. Princess and the Frog was something that Lasseter pushed really hard for, and it was a striking success (I mean, the film is brilliant), but about 90 percent of the stuff Disney shows on TV now is live action tween sitcoms, and the only DECENT show is Phineas and Ferb, which still doesn't stack up to practically anything they had in the 90's. Hopefully Lasseter will keep pushing for traditional animation, the medium NEEDS to stay for an absolute fact, and maybe we'll see a return of good cartoons, with a slim chance of seeing the Gargs make a return.

I think Patrick made a good point a while back about the 90's getting put into film, there's a possibility there. And as Demonskrye said, even if for some unforeseeable reason Disney does hand over the rights to the series, there's still no guarantee that it'll go anywhere. Still I think whoever gets it would be interested in it enough to do something productive with it since they would have managed to pry it from Disney's cold dead hands. Not to mention if Greg is involved, I'm sure he'd do anything to get it running SOMEWHERE.

lvl27_cubone
Does the sky need a name? Does the river?

cubone> Petitions come up from time to time, and if people want to start them and sign them, that's fine. But personally, I don't think they do much good in most cases. Petitions don't really seem to have an impact unless they get a very large number of signatures in a relatively short amount of time, like tens of thousands of signatures in a matter of weeks. And even then, there's no guaarantee. The problem is that it's very easy to get people to sign a petition whether or not they have any intention of purchasing the asked-for product. Disney believes they already have very good numbers for how much of an interest there is in Gargoyles: the sales figures for the DVDs. Somebody can get a million of their friends and friends of friends and friends of friends of friends to sign a petition saying "We want more Gargoyles!" But if Disney knows that they only sold 50,000 <----TOTALLY MADE UP FIGURE copies of the DVDs, then they can reasonably assume that most of these petition signers are not willing to put their money where their mouths are.

Disney selling the rights to Gargoyles is pretty much a non-starter. Current;y, no one who has the kind of money that Disney would want for even a property they're not doing much with, assuming they would ever think about selling it.

Paul> It's possible that one or more past Hunters may have temporarily "killed" Demona, though I think if it did happen, the Hunter would probably have ended up permanently dead in the process. The current generation of Canmores doesn't seem to know that Demona is immortal in the nigh-unkillable sense and I kind of figure that if a past hunter stabbed Demona through the heart repeatedly and saw her recover from it, he or she would probably pass that information on to future Hunters. It could also be oddly poignant to have a Hunter die believing that he or she has finally killed the Demon and fulfilled the Canmore destiny, never to know that the hunt will continue and his or her place in history will just be as one more hunter in the line.

Linor> I'm not one to say that Disney is bad and Gargoyles would be better off with anyone else, but I think you're making conclusions that don't quite reflect the facts. The fact that Disney is doing hand-drawn feature films again doesn't indicate a desire to produce more animation across the board. Even if it did, it wouldn't necessarily mean that they would jump at the chance to do any animated series, regardless of how old it was or what kind of money they had made on it in the past. I also don't see Disney giving Greg carte blanche to do whatever he wants with the property. He was able to get some more mature content into the comic because it was geared towards an older audience, the type of people who buy SLG comics. But in the unlikely event that Gargoyles or any of its spin-offs become new Tv shows with new episodes, I think we would see something very toned down from what we've seen in the comic.

Demonskrye - [<---"Little Nemo" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

no, Disney's a great studio they don't want to buy everything, they're not under eisner anymore, they're just wanting to do animation. Gargoyles is Disney and greg has freedom to do what he wants under disney, besides you heard what ask greg said disney will never let go, they'll own it till the end of the world.
Linor.
Linor.

Linor>Interesting poem there, hehe. The main reason I say Greg should get it from Disney is it'd allow him to move to a different network and do everything he ever wanted with the series (which by now, we all know would be a very good thing). If he had the rights to it, I believe Disney would relinquish all the previous episodes to him as well, so they could still air those. This is all hypothetical of course, I have no idea what would happen if such a miracle occurred. I doubt Disney has any intention of letting go of the name, especially since they want to buy everything,...

If you want to show your friend the series, you can get the first season and half of season 2 on DVD, just look it up on Amazon. As for the rest, you'll have to be a bit naughty, but it's not hard to find.

On a different note, just been having a nice conversation with a friend on twitter about the series, (mainly about the humanized clan and Garg-Elisa) it's always a good thing to get into this stuff with friends. :) Also, I'm gonna start trying to watch at least 1 episode a day, and I guess I could post a log of that here, as long as it's not too frequent, no double posting and stuff. Maybe that could spark a bit more conversation around here, at least I hope. ^^

lvl27_cubone
Does the sky need a name? Does the river?

No i don't think greg should buy gargoyles from disney gargoyles is disney even greg says so, what we should do is really show disney how much gargoyles is worth how much the series is, like i'm trying to show my friend what he's missing on the show. I even wrote a poem about gargoyles for the show and to get him into loving the show Gargoyles Gargoyles We Love Gargoyles, Gargoyles, we are big we are sedimentary rocks Gargoyles Gargoyles we love Gargoyles Gargoyles.
Linor.
Linor.

Did any of the Canmores besides Malcolm ever succeed in "killing" Demona? I know they "hunted" her, but I don't think any of them ever managed to inflict "fatal" damage on her.
Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]

Antiyonder>Ahh, I guess I was mostly misled by the fact that I don't read too often, not exactly a bookworm (but I kinda want to be. Just difficult for me to get into literature unless I'm already interested in it.) I really hope things work out for Greg, he's been at this for too long to not get something for it. Just hope someone with an opinion that matters up there recognizes that and gets the ball rolling for him.

Shows how much I read when I don't realize the difference between comics and graphic novels. Thanks for setting it straight for me Antiyonder. I appreciate it. :) Here's to hoping!

On a positive note, I manage to coax a friend of a friend on twitter to get back into the series, she even mentioned possibly picking up the DVD's. Put a smile on my face. A follower on dA also expressed his interest in revisiting the series as well.

Curious, I'm sure there's been something, but what's happened in regards to petitioning? No harm in starting something up I hope, unless it's really familiar and unsuccessful territory. Not much really gets too far for stuff like this when petitions arise, sadly. Good example being a localization of Mother 3 (50,000 signatures, and still nothing). Still, it's worth a shot if people are willing. That's just my opinion though. Just hoping for another way to get through to the almighty Disney,...

lvl27_cubone
Does the sky need a name? Does the river?

Cheeks has posted his Mecha-Nation #2 variant cover: http://gotcheeks.blogspot.com/2010/01/mechanation-cover-2-colors.html He posted the rough pencils earlier.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Cubone> Graphic novels would be really great, but it's not a very common form of media.

Perhaps, but Graphic Novels, Trade Paperbacks and Manga actually do substancially well. Single issue in general do poorly because they are sold almost only in comic stores. Which some people avoid for several reasons:

1. Some comic stores fit the nerd sterotype and are a turnoff for those normally not into comics.

2. Even if the comic store is well kept, some of them are just too far out of the way to bother, unless comic books are a hobby. And even then, you ask many adults where they first got their comics, the results are going to be stores that are mainstream (Gas Stations or Grocery Stores).


Graphic Novels on the other hand are sold at the more common bookstores, and thus gives Gargoyles a better chance.

Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
Algernon's comment about Norman Osborn: One of the neat things about Dark Reign is that it gives Osborn the chance to expand his horizons beyond tormenting a twenty nine year old who still lives with his mom.

Yeah, Antiyonder makes a good point. Unless somehow Greg got the rights from Disney and could produce the show on a different network, chances are either Disney would just see the content as too dark, or Greg would have to do some editing to compensate for the darker tone of what's been written since he left the show. Still, I want to see it come back in one way or another. Graphic novels would be really great, but it's not a very common form of media, it'd spread a lot more on TV, and I think it's a better in cartoon form personally (then again, I haven't read the comics yet, I need to get them) and they're usually produced more frequently that way.

Regardless, the series really deserves to live on. No doubt about that.

lvl27_cubone
Does the sky need a name? Does the river?

Tristan> Bronx Has Mated. Be patient. It'll take 20 years.
battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

Thing is, that as far as cartoons go, Disney's Standards and Practices are a great deal tighter than in 1994-1996. Deadly Force and Future Tense would have to be toned down to be produced in this decade.

The graphic novel format is the best bet for further continuations.

Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
Algernon's comment about Norman Osborn: One of the neat things about Dark Reign is that it gives Osborn the chance to expand his horizons beyond tormenting a twenty nine year old who still lives with his mom.

yeah and my friend thinks that gargoyles will never come back, not on air not anywhere it's a lost cause he says.
Linor.
Linor.

yeah and my friend thinks that gargoyles will never come back, not on air not anywhere it's a lost cause he says.
Linor.
Linor.

Linor> That could really be contributed to several factors:

1. Some fans might have been turned off by The Goliath Chronicles, and were unaware that a change in the creative team was the cause of the quality change.

2. While the show was fairly well known back when the show was new/recent, it was never a big name show compared to say Ninja Turtles, Transformers or Batman. So without knowing about it's obscurity, I suppose it is easy to see as a lack of interest.

3. As for why the continuation was short lived, even with big name titles, comic books aren't the highest selling medium. So for a new comic based off a franchise not widely known in the first place, many fans were and still are unaware that the comics were published. Heck, some of the YouTube responses have some fans hoping that the story will continue, indicating ignorance to the comic book.

So the main problem isn't that people dislike it, but are unaware of it.

Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
Algernon's comment about Norman Osborn: One of the neat things about Dark Reign is that it gives Osborn the chance to expand his horizons beyond tormenting a twenty nine year old who still lives with his mom.

well about continiung it doesn't seem, but yeah, i should tell my friend those stuff. He thinks Gargoyles is a 1990s show which nobody really likes anymore. is he right?
Linor.
Linor.

will bronx have any babies
Tristan - [tbremick at sbcglobal dot net]
tristan

Linor> This is probably more of a Comment Room question than an Ask Greg question anyways.

First of all, the idea that Thailog is stuck in stone sleep awaiting a cure for the illness that struck the clones is from an episode of "The Goliath Chronicles." This third season of episodes was created without Greg Weisman's participation and is not considered canon by wither Greg or the fans. In the SLG comics, which Greg wrote, Thailog is alive and well and wreaking havoc whenever he shows up.

As for what to tell your friend, you could start by telling him that anything from "The Goliath Chronicles" is not a good example of what makes Gargoyles good. Aside from that, you could talk about the great characterization, the exciting continuing storyline, and the reference to world legends and Shakespeare. But I think your friend will be a lot more willing to listen if you tell him what you think is great about Gargoyles instead of repeating a list of what a bunch of strangers think.

Demonskrye - [<---"James and the Giant Peach" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

Hey guys can i ask something i meant to ask greg but currently they're not accepting any questions. my friend Kai, says what's so great about the series Gargoyles,including Thailog, did you know he's now in permanent stone sleep because of a virus and cannot wake until a cure can be found, this series is isn't very good. what should i tell him?
Linor.
Linor.

10th

Harvester>Will do. Should be interesting once I start watching season 2, it's been a long time since I've seen most of the episodes. Awakening was great as usual, but considering season 1's all I have, they're the episodes I'm most familiar with. Still good faves of mine though. Did get to see "The Mirror" a while ago, which was good fun. I can't wait to get into more of the episodes, especially since I forgot the details of what happens with Coldstone in season 1.

Man, I need to get the comics

lvl27_cubone
Does the sky need a name? Does the river?

9th.

We've periodically done a "compare and contrast" the "Gargoyles" comics with TGS, particularly when they entered the same territory (such as Brooklyn's Timedancing). Recently, I thought of one, though it probably didn't occur to a lot of people because it never made it into TGS; we only discussed it during Breakdowns.

One of the first "Timedancer" stories that TGS did was Brooklyn meeting Mary and Finella in late 10th century Scotland, though handled in a far different manner than the way the comic did. The person writing the proposed outline wanted to have a scene in it where Constantine would confront the leader of the soldiers sent to capture Mary and Finella, who had been foiled by Brooklyn; when the soldier begs for forgiveness, Constantine agrees to forgive him, then runs him through, saying afterwards "I always forgive people when they're dead."

The idea was rejected, and one of the then-heads of the TGS project gave a good comment on that scene, with its use of the familiar concept of the villain killing his henchmen for failure; such an act would be extremely foolish, since if you keep on killing your followers like that, you soon won't have any, because the living ones will decide to desert before you can do the same thing to them. I thought that a good point. (Note that Xanatos, one of the most intelligent antagonists in "Gargoyles" - maybe one of the most intelligent antagonists in animated television - only once moved against a subordinate in the entire series: Sevarius in "Double Jeopardy". And here he had a far better reason than the old "You've failed me for the last time"; Sevarius had (Xanatos thought) double-crossed him by abducting Thailog, an offense that couldn't possibly be tolerated.)

But I was reminded of that discussion when, in the comic, Constantine carries out his own atrocity, if of a different nature: executing Kenneth III's messenger. It's probably one of his most villainous moments (in a career filled with them), since part of the etiquette of medieval warfare was that heralds and messengers were not to be killed or offered violence. Note that even Mail Brigti looks uneasy about Constantine's command, aware that the man's gone too far.

Todd Jensen

8th.

Cubone: Feel free to post your thoughts on it here as you progress.

Harvester of Eyes
"DO NOT INTERRUPT! There! Happy now? Look what you did! Now you don't get to go on the murder crusade!" -The Monarch

7th.

Cubone> Oh, dude, you are WAY behind. :)

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

Sixth! :P

Still need to sit down and watch all of Season 1, I've only watched Awakening so far.

lvl27_cubone
Does the sky need a name? Does the river?

Here's a question for Greg Weisiman

...were you a prick when you were a teacher?

Lindsey - [s dot church at cox dot net]
Lindsey

(4th)FOUR!!!!
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]

3rd.....just cause I haven't been in the Gargoyles universe in ages!
Nickerous

Second in the name of starting my last semester of college!
Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible, I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka

FIRST!!!!
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" -Sevarius, 'Louse'