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The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending September 18, 2011

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@Supermorff Thank you!
Noneofyourbusiness - [brownie2@buffalo.edu]

In re-watching Targets, I noticed when Superboy gave the history of Rhelasia, he says it was founded in 1855 by the Bokun Dynasty until it was divided after WWII. In Korean, "bokun" means "split" or "cleave".
Richard Jackson

Noneofyourbusiness> Done. Happy editing!
Supermorff

Hi looking for someone to give me a pic of Goliath in stone on the castle turret so I can get it tattooed on my arm or back
joe kley - [joesg2@yahoo.com]

Username "Noneofyourbusiness" asking for editing priveleges, please.
Noneofyourbusiness - [brownie2@buffalo.edu]

If Brooklyn noticed the Twin Towers were gone in 2198, he'd have also noticed there were other buildings in their place. When in the course of the last 200 years things changed wouldn't necessarily be readily apparent unless he actually visited the site. I'd not expect many buildings built in the 20th century to still be around at the close of the 22nd, as most are never intended by their designers to last for hundreds of years.
Patrick

I just crawled through the whole SEGA Gargoyles game with the help of cheats - just to see the levels and the story - and... oh my, it's really shocking. What has the poor canon done to these people that they programmed something like that? :(
Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!

DuckTales #4 is out this week. Preview: http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=preview&id=9751
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Bought a book today called "The Lore of Scotland: A Guide to Scottish Legends" by Jennifer Westwood and Sophia Kingshill. It's a collection of Scottish legends and folk-tales, sorted by the different places in Scotland that they're linked to. (It's a companion to an earlier book by Jennifer Westwood, "The Lore of the Land", about English legends; sadly, she passed on during the writing of "The Lore of Scotland" - her co-author completed the work - so there most likely won't be further books that would do the same thing for Wales and Ireland.) It also includes a few special essays on major Scottish legends, one of which was Macbeth (on pages 318-19).

The essay on Macbeth points out the difference between Shakespeare's play and the historical Macbeth, and a bit about the Weird Sisters (including that, in Shakespeare's sources, they were "the goddesses of destiny" rather than mere witches - the former fits "Gargoyles", of course). It also mentions a few places linked to Macbeth in legend and folklore (Lumphanan Hill [sic] is one, and even has a "Macbeth's Stone" and a "Macbeth's Well"), and a mention of a tradition of Lady Macbeth's ghost lingering on at a place in Inverness called Torvean Motte, still trying to wash the blood off her hands (probably not true in the Gargoyles Universe; at least, it would be repetitive to have Gruoch's ghost about as well as the Captain and Hakon's). Finally, according to a folklorist in the early 19th century, Macbeth is supposed to have hidden the real Stone of Destiny somewhere in his castle, to keep his reign safe, while placing a lookalike in its public location; the author connected that to other similar rumors about the Stone, and gave a brief account of its history (including the 1950 theft from Westminste Abbey and the return to Scotland in 1996) at the end of the essay.

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]

I would assume that when he saw the towers were gone in 2198, he probably just figured that the buildings eventually got torn down due to age. He probably didn't immediately assume it was a terrorist act.
Rebel

And speaking of Brooklyn in 2198, I think it'd be very cool and interesting for him to meet a very ancient Tachi in that time period. Assuming her memory was still intact, Tachi would clearly know who Brooklyn is, but I doubt Brooklyn would realize that Tachi was his daughter. It'd make for an interesting moment.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"... And if we did it before, we can do it again." "And we will. Together." - Goliath and Elisa, "The Edge"

Mochi> I've long been inclined to think that he noticed that they were absent, but never bothered to ask. 200 years is a pretty long time. He may have known that SOMETHING was going to happen to them, but never bothered to ask what or why. It's not something that would readily occur to him. After it happens in-universe, he probably mentally connected some dots, but I doubt that he actively knew that 9/11 was going to happen.
Chip - [<------The League of Extraordinary Nerds Here!]
"An explanation of cause is not a justification by reason." C. S. Lewis

I'm tempted to add that whether he intended to find out or not, Brooklyn must've noticed the absence of the Towers in 2198 New York... of course, I imagine the Manhattan skyline has greatly changed in 200 years, so maybe he wouldn't think much of it. And unless he bothered to ask specifically what happened to the Towers, there is little reason anyone would've told him what happened. In two hundred years, 9/11 will be a part of history, afterall. Even the oldest gargoyles (minus Demona) would have little or no memory of it.

If Brooklyn does note the Towers are gone, I'm sure he'll just figure they were demolished and replaced at some point... then again the planned memorial will probably change that opinion.

Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"... And if we did it before, we can do it again." "And we will. Together." - Goliath and Elisa, "The Edge"

Paul> But Greg said that Brooklyn avoided finding out about events from his own time, since he couldn't change them anyway. As you say, though, whether Brooklyn happened to find out about this specifically is hypothetical.
Supermorff

Since Brooklyn went to 2198, and there's a possibility that people from 2198 had read about 9/11 in history books, I'm inclined to say yes.

He may have gone to earlier times, which would make it more likely that he would know about 9/11 as well, but that's all hypothetical until GW gives us further details about Timedancer.

Paul - [nampahcfluap@yahoo.com]

**Steps out from lurking in the darkest corners of the CR**

Since the CR is currently on the subject of 9/11, twin towers, etc., a hypothetical question came to mind...

Brooklyn went on his time travel adventures and returned as we all know. Could there be a possibility that he is aware of the events that take place on that fateful day (assuming this does occur in the Gargoyles Universe)?

The One Known As Mochi - [shogi.keima.08@gmail.com]
Current Mood: (>**)> Interview tomorrow... Need to prepare...

Patrick: << No one thinks twice about films about the Civil War, the Holocaust, or the Titanic. I'd just like some more data on how soon is "too soon".>>

Well, if you ever saw this:

http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s06e02-jared-has-aides

Then you would know the answer is [SPOILER] 22.3 years [/SPOILER] ;)

Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible . . . I hope it lasts," -- Willy Wonka

I also don't support the editing out of the Twin Towers in old media in which they appeared. Nor do I imagine that Disney would ever bother doing so in "Gargoyles" since that takes MONEY and they've shown they are loathe to spend any of that do to anything that would make them some more of it, like release the rest of the second season on DVD. In light of that, tasking people to edit the shows that have already been airing for over a decade does not seem likely.

Similarly, I would have to think twice about supporting any filmmaker or studio that decides it must go back and do a George Lucas on any footage of the WTC. If your movie was set in NYC between 1973 and September 11, 2001, why on earth should the WTC be removed? The majority of the "censorship" we saw right after 9/11 was for films that had not yet been released, such as the pulling of promotional posters for Spider-Man that showed a giant web between the Twin Towers. (If you stumble upon one of those posters, it's worth big bucks now.)

Patrick
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

I hope I live long enough to see when 9/11 joins the list of "real historical event where a lot of people tragically died" that are nonetheless acceptable as backgrounds for fictional works where fictional characters get caught up in the events and die. No one thinks twice about films about the Civil War, the Holocaust, or the Titanic. I'd just like some more data on how soon is "too soon".
Patrick
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

One of the towers is depicted still standing in the comic Ex Machina, too.
Supermorff

Anonymous> "Still, call me crazy, as I've often entertained the thought of alternate realities, is there anything wrong with wanting a piece of fiction where the 9/11 attacks did not happen?"

The television series Fringe has an parallel universe where the Towers still stand in Manhatan (and it is spelled that way on the alternate Earth). To my knowledge, there was not a huge amount of anger amongst the viewership over the towers' survival in that reality (which occurred in the first season finale on May 12th, 2009). It's also not the only tidbit of historical difference shown in that episode - for the older crowd, there is a newspaper headline mentioning a former president addressing the UN...specifically, John F. Kennedy.

Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

Richard Jackson>"Did anyone ever read Amazing Spider-Man #36 by J. Michael Straczynski and John Romita Jr.? That was produced a few months after 9/11 and showed how the Marvel heroes would have dealt with the attack. I thought Stracynski and Romita handled it well."

I wasn't fond entirely because approaching something like that in a shared universe composed of superheroes...doesn't really make a lot of sense to me. This is a world where beings that might as well be deities have come down with silver heralds and, more recently, superhumans fighting in gang warfare over political ideologies stemming from an entirely different situation.

I'm not saying 9/11 was insignificant, far from it. But I truly believe that the only way any event can truly be respected is for it to NEED to be addressed. Pseudohistorically, the coming of Galactus had more historical significance to the United States than the fall of the World Trade Center. It arguably has similar effects if you really think about it (it's also fairly dramatic and poignant in "Marvels", though not more so than the event we're discussing, of course).

And that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I think that, while it was a very touching gesture, it makes me uncomfortable on several different levels.

As a reader, I didn't feel a 9/11 story could add ANYTHING to any given hero...and I still feel that (as in, the themes and ideas it explores or could explore had all been explored fairly thoroughly in Spider-Man). And considering various things that happen in this universe...this has less of a body count than the Dark Phoenix Saga. Than many other storylines I'm sure I don't even know about (I'm not much of a Marvel reader). Putting this all through the prism of Spider-Man bypasses most of these problems...but by putting this into a single story and not give it wider significance (Civil War, that narrative and ideological wreck, holds more significance in the Marvel U than 9/11) is, on some level, insulting. The fact that, by nature of escapist fiction, annual crossovers hold more significance than the canonical 9/11 attack that Spider-Man witnessed is frustrating as a reader.

As a human being, I spin that a different way. The notion that something like Civil War or any given annual event holds more significance than such a powerful event, that you have salvaged onto your serial's arc, is something that makes my stomach turn. I'm not asking for it to be focused on every minute. But for 9/11 to drastically effect the entire Marvel Universe only for things to shift back to normal is sickening to me. It introduces a pantheon of modern mythological beings who protect the universe to a startling, massive issue important to readers gazing beyond the veil and not allowing them to, if not prevent it, at least correct it. It's a tribute that inherently leaves our heroes powerless no matter the level of hope and optimism. It forces them to be tied to metafictional bonds that tell us that the world can never truly be saved and they are only as effective as we say they are. Call me something of a sap, but that dissonance is almost physically painful and reducing icons and characters that should inspire into being as helpless, but optimistic, in that one moment as us does not have as much power when they return to routinely conquering their supervillains. The notion that the real world can destroy these intangible ideas such as great responsibility or being a man without fear, or even just render them helpless, only made the event that much harder to take.

What is a kid supposed to do if he can't even turn to Spider-Man, no matter how optimistic the story ends up being? In that one moment, Spider-Man couldn't make things better...but he'll still be able to defeat Electro. So...there's that?

But that's just me. Someone could have had an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT perspective. I'm not even calling you wrong, Richard. But I figured the other part of the equation was worth saying.

Masterdramon>"In this post from 2002, Greg Weisman addresses the issue of how 9/11 might be approached through the "Gargoyles" Universe directly..."

Not that anyone asked me, but...I honestly don't feel 9/11 is a necessity for Gargoyles. Now, if Weisman found out a way to do it, more power to him. But the Gargoyles Universe is ultimately the story of a meticulously constructed reality. Weisman has made clear that this is a grand tale, with spin off details being relegated to other places due to narrative necessity (with Clan Building foreshadowing 2198 for Pendragon). It is the story of an entire universe and Goliath is our eyes.

I...don't feel like 9/11 should be addressed directly. Weisman's concerns are genuine, but I'd add one more: what would 9/11 tell us that things like the Wyvern Massacre hasn't? Try to keep this in context, as the two events ultimately teach us the same basic moral. Bad, terrible things can and will happen, but you must never lose hope. A great moral, to be sure, but how worthy of visitation is it in this format and in this context?

Furthermore, along with ignoring the need to slap it into the arc of the Gargoyles Universe (which I believe, though not impossible, wouldn't be nearly as hard as it would be for the Marvel U...but still tricky, but then again I don't have the Timeline, so I could be dead wrong), what would the internal sacrifice be for our clan? No regulars passing, I feel, could be interpreted either way in terms of respect. On one hand, death should not be trivialized. On the other hand...the Clan didn't lose anyone when so many others did?

Repercussions are the tricky part. Certainly, it's hard to gauge Goliath's views on his protectorate circa 2001...but beyond that, would it feel like Wyvern all over again? What would that do to Goliath? Would likening it to Wyvern (to which there are broad similarities) likewise trivialize the attacks if losing a regular runs that risk too? What else would his frame of reference POSSIBLY be? We don't know how long it'll take for 9/11 to truly enter the domain of acceptability for pulp/genre fiction to have a shake at (like the Holocaust has), leaving this question a rather murky one.

Not that anyone asked, but if anyone with influence wanted my honest opinion..."It happened off panel, and the Manhattan Clan deals with whatever consequences come naturally to whatever point in the grand arc of the Gargoyles Universe at the time." That way you don't have to do a story ABOUT it and go back to largely fantasy stories...but you can still quietly and respectfully deal with whatever shifts to society's norm came with it.

Do I think Weisman could respectfully handle 9/11? Yes. I'm just not sure it's needed.

But again, not that anyone asked.

Harlan Phoenix

Did anyone ever read Amazing Spider-Man #36 by J. Michael Straczynski and John Romita Jr.? That was produced a few months after 9/11 and showed how the Marvel heroes would have dealt with the attack. I thought Stracynski and Romita handled it well.
Richard Jackson

Battle Beast: Ah, my apologies then.

Gitlow vs. New York, incidentally, was a 1925 case wherein the Supreme Court ruled that the Fourteenth Amendment expanded certain protections inherent in the First Amendment against encroachment by the individual state governments, as opposed to just by Congress. It represented a major step toward the current, fairly expansive stance that the Court now takes with regards to the liberties enumerated in the Bill of Rights.

Masterdramon - [kmc12009@mymail.pomona.edu]
"Oh Lord, stuck in Lodi again..." - John Fogerty of Creedence Clearwater Revival

I think that pretending that any sort of massacre never happened does a great injustice to those who were killed, be it in the 9/11 attacks or the Holocaust.

Then again, I don't personally know anybody who was killed in 9/11 or the Holocaust, and my opinion doesn't matter as much as that of someone who does.

It would be nice to imagine such a world, but I don't think anybody dares to do more than imagine it.

Paul - [nampahcfluap@yahoo.com]

My thought on editing out the Twin Towers in past media: No. Just, no. They existed, leave things as is. (Lest I bring up old-hat topics like George Orwell's 1984, or even George Lucas' editing of Star Wars, which I'm sure no one wants.)

Still, call me crazy, as I've often entertained the thought of alternate realities, is there anything wrong with wanting a piece of fiction where the 9/11 attacks did not happen? I'd personally have liked it to be the Gargoyles universe myself, which is full if it's own complications, but that's just me.

Anonymous

Captain Jay asked if there was a law saying you HAVE to edit out the Twin Towers, and Greg said "The First Amendment." I took that as to mean "yes." Yah, I guess I did misunderstand Greg.

Masterdramon> No, I haven't heard of Gitlow v. New York because, as a Canadian, I don't really follow US law/trials and the only two cases I know of off hand are Miranda v. Arizona and Roe v. Wade.

Battle Beast - [Canada]
I DID IT!!! I WATCHED ALL 485 BEST PICTURE NOMINEES IN ONE YEAR!!!

Captain Jay>If there are film critics who want the Twin Towers to be retro-actively erased from films that portrayed them in the past, I would recommend The Commissar Vanishes to them, a book showing the falsification of photographs during the Soviet era. I was history major in college and if I ever became a filmmaker and made a film set between 1973 and September 11, 2001 in New York City, I would have to include the World Trade Center because it would anachonistic not to include it. All films are set in an alternate reality in respect to ours, but I wouldn't want mine to be that far removed from our reality.

I know you're not in favor of airbrushing them out of history, Captain Jay. I'm just giving my opinion as a potential rebuttal to those in favor of removing the Towers.

And even if you're not a fan of airburshing things out of history, The Commissar Vanishes is still a great book. http://www.amazon.com/Commissar-Vanishes-Falsification-Photographs-Stalins/dp/0805052941

Richard Jackson

What Greg said about 9/11 reminded me a bit of "Metamorphosis," where the gargoyles tried to help but ultimately didn't make anything better (and actually, their interference made things worse).

I imagine that any episode about 9/11 would have to be equally (or more) somber.

Paul - [nampahcfluap@yahoo.com]

In this post from 2002, Greg Weisman addresses the issue of how 9/11 might be approached through the "Gargoyles" Universe directly...

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=722

It's certainly an understandable viewpoint, I think.

Masterdramon - [kmc12009@mymail.pomona.edu]
"Oh Lord, stuck in Lodi again..." - John Fogerty of Creedence Clearwater Revival

I've also noticed the presence of the Twin Towers in the show, not just lately, but in the times I've re-watched the episodes since 9/11. I'm glad Disney hasn't removed them so far (and also surprised, given the stuff they did remove). I was wondering what they would do about that, since the towers do play an important role in The Mirror, and that's a somewhat important episode (as it establishes Puck, Demona turning to human during the day, etc.).

As others mentioned, the censorship of the towers from films and television was a decision made by the media companies, and not by the government. Understandable, given the state of many people's minds at the time, and the terrible suffering those people in the towers must have experienced. But I do think that ten years later, we should be able to mention the towers without upsetting people. I think it's sad that Weissman has stated he would make no mention of them again in Gargoyles. I've always wondered how the clan would have been coping on 9/11. Obviously, they couldn't do anything to help during the attacks, since they took place during the day.

Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.

Having been rewatching Gargoyles of late, yes the Twin Towers do make several incidental appearances - plus their key role in the Mirror. They're also visable in many of the scenes of TGC(in a couple of episodes there are wide shots of the city and they're front & center). I do find it strange that Disney didn't edit the scenes out, considering some of the stupid edits they have made in the show.
Wingless

I think Greg was saying the First Amendment says you CAN'T have a law mandating the twin towers be removed, and Battle Beast just misunderstood what he was saying.
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
Tim Curry is so scary he made Tony Jay look nice.

Captain Jay: The standards for self-censorship can often be far more stringent than actual regulation. Media companies do not generally like to take risks with upsetting their viewers, and depicting the Twin Towers prominently is still a risk with some audiences.

Nightwing2011: The first season of "Young Justice" will continue for twenty-six episodes (so, seventeen left if you include "Targets"). The second season will be at least twenty, with hope for more in the future.

Battle Beast: "Congress shall make no law...abridging the freedom of speech."

Have you heard of Gitlow vs. New York?

Masterdramon - [kmc12009@mymail.pomona.edu]
"Oh Lord, stuck in Lodi again..." - John Fogerty of Creedence Clearwater Revival

Greg> The First Amendment says no such thing.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
I DID IT!!! I WATCHED ALL 485 BEST PICTURE NOMINEES IN ONE YEAR!!!

Yes, of course my second question was rehtorical. I know there would never be a law saying to remove all footage of the Twin Towers. It just seems like nowadays that people try to avoid the image of the Towers. As Jackson said, a lot studios have made the choice to remove them. I've even seen film critics criticize films made long before 9/11 for not removing the image of the Towers.

That people in the thread I posted were actually discussing the possibility of removing the Twin Towers from a children's TV show that's been off the air for years only proves my point of people feeling the need to hide them.

And thanks for the link, Jackson.

Captain Jay

HI Greg... First off Young Justice is an absolute fine show and if DC were to bring something fresh to the table I'd say you hit the jackpot!!! My question is how many episodes are in a season and how long will YJ run for??? Could you pass my gratitude on to the entire production team? Thanks... Is there any links for me to read some of the scripts from any of the DC animated shows as I write myself and want to have a pop at writing some DC based material. All the best BIG fan Paul Goddard... If you do have some links then please email them to me...!? mr_goddard2006@hotmail.com
Nightwing2011 - [mr_goddard2006@hotmail.com]

CAPTAIN JAY> <<Is there some piece of law somewhere that says the Twin Towers must be completely removed from all the media of the past?>>

Ever heard of the First Amendment?

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
Elisa Maza, why don't you just take that "sodie pop" can and stick the straw right into New York's eye!

Captain Jay>"Then again, how much censorship has surrounded the removal of the Twin Towers from old films and TV shows the past ten years? Is there some piece of law somewhere that says the Twin Towers must be completely removed from all the media of the past?"

Well, I hope your second question is rhetorical, because I would be very afraid of a government that would mandate the airbrushing the Towers from our entertainment media. A lot of decisions to remove the Towers around the time of 9/11 from films were made by the movie corporations who make their own decisions and are not under government mandate.

This wikipedia article lists all the edits or appearances of the Towers in films made in the 2000s. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Trade_Center_in_popular_culture#2000s

Richard Jackson

Ninth... I think.

Can anyone point me to a Gargoyles 9-11 fanfic? I'm not usually a fanfic fan, but I'm curious...

Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"... And if we did it before, we can do it again." "And we will. Together." - Goliath and Elisa, "The Edge"

Masterdramon > Oh... you know I don't think I ever realized before that those were meant to be the Twin Towers. Totally didn't connect that. I think I just figured they were really tall buildings or something like that. Yeah, that episode would not really work if they cut out the Twin Towers.

Then again, how much censorship has surrounded the removal of the Twin Towers from old films and TV shows the past ten years? Is there some piece of law somewhere that says the Twin Towers must be completely removed from all the media of the past?

Captain Jay

Captain Jay: Well, most notably, a good deal of the action of "The Mirror" takes place on top of them.

There are probably a fair few incidental shots of them scattered throughout the series' backgrounds, but I don't feel like combing random episodes just for that.

But if more strenuous censorship were to take place in this regard, "The Mirror" is definitely what would get hit the hardest.

Masterdramon - [kmc12009@mymail.pomona.edu]
"Oh Lord, stuck in Lodi again..." - John Fogerty of Creedence Clearwater Revival

This thread says that future reruns of Gargoyles should remove images of the Twin Towers from the episodes. I can't recall, were there any images of the Twin Towers in any Gargoyles episode?

http://www.toonzone.net/forums/showthread.php?110797-Gargoyles-And-9-11

Captain Jay

Wingless > Have any links to those fanfictions? I've never read a Gargoyles 9/11 fanfic before.
Captain Jay

Paul McGann!
Algernon

All Lucky Sevens.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

Sixth.
Spen
"Keep your mind on your driving, keep your hands on the wheel. Keep your snoopy eyes on the road ahead. We're having fun, sittin' in the backseat, kissin' and a-huggin' with Fred." - Paul Evans "Seven Little Girls"

Captain Jay - Thanks for that link. I've read a few fanfics on the subject, but there's been little artwork. Understandably so-since it is a sensitive subject. I would really like to know how the series would have handled it(if it could have been done).
Wingless

I'll take fifth.
Masterdramon - [kmc12009@mymail.pomona.edu]
"Oh Lord, stuck in Lodi again..." - John Fogerty of Creedence Clearwater Revival

This popped up on my DeviantArt feed a few days ago. I think it's a fitting tribute and it did make me wonder how the gargoyles would have responded to this tragedy.

http://songficcer.deviantart.com/art/Gargoyle-9-11-Tribute-257064313?q=boost%3Apopular%20gargoyles%20september&qo=5

Captain Jay

(3rd)Third!!!
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]

Second!
Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible . . . I hope it lasts," -- Willy Wonka

#1
Wingless