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Gargoyles

The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending October 7, 2012

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Braniac and Matt> thanks for your input guys. Really helped me sort out my thinking on the matter. If the clones do end up reproducing sexually, I suppose the offspring could have coloring based on both the Labrynth and Manhattan Clans.
Personally, I hope the Labrynth Gargs aren't sterile. Although a clan filled with mostly identical gargs could be interesting, I'd rather see them mated and lay eggs. I would like to see new kinds of clones and mutates added though. Based on "Bad Guys" I'm sure we would have seen a few humans injected with Garg DNA as well as at least one Garg injected with Human DNA.

Brack

Hey thanks :)
im not sure this was our 1st step into this fandom. so im not to sure what we will do next :)

Starlight.Studio

Looks very nice. I might just buy one myself.

Are you ever planning to make an Eye of Odin? If you did that, all we'd need is for someone to make a really big, red book with the Grimmorum symbol on the front.

Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.

Hey Guys.
Im Starlight.Studio! we were asked by a few Gargoyles fans to take a stab at the Phoenix Gate. so we have finnished them, and are up for sale on ebay! there totaly made of metal.
i am new here and didnt see any rules, so i hope were not breaking them. but please check it out!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Gargoyles-Phoenix-Prop-Gate-goliath-elisa-demona-Figure-/110956622935?pt=US_Action_Figures&hash=item19d587b457#ht_309wt_870

Starlight - [Starlight.Studio@yahoo.com]

How to draw a goliath, thailog and wolf in mutant form pics
Ian swift
Ian swift

I meant it results in a ban on gargoyle hunting.
Green Lantern's Nightlight

Matt <<Goliath's sacrifice also doesn't end all the issues, it merely results in a law that makes hunting gargoyles a crime and groups the clans into a single Gargoyle Nation.>>

<<And the fact that we know so little about the circumstances of Goliath's death don't help much either.>>

So it's not from gargoyle hunting then? That's just the result of his death?

Green Lantern's Nightlight

And keep in mind that it isn't like Goliath's life is just going to be one downer after another until he dies and things are instantly all better. I'm sure there will be many wins for Human-Gargoyle relations both big and small that Goliath will witness in his life and likely play a part in. Goliath's sacrifice also doesn't end all the issues, it merely results in a law that makes hunting gargoyles a crime and groups the clans into a single Gargoyle Nation. That is a huge moment to be sure, but at best that puts things where the Wyvern Clan was with Prince Malsolm's people in the late 10th century... and we all know what happened after that. Just as before Goliath's death there will be plenty of new human allies and moments of improving relations between humans and gargoyles, there will be plenty of moments after his death where humans and gargoyles will not get along. The Quarrymen do survive until 2198 afterall.

And the fact that we know so little about the circumstances of Goliath's death don't help much either.

Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Thats three down and two to go..." -Sevarius, "The Reckoning"

Greg Weisman said the newest episode of YJ was as dark as the title suggested. Although to be honest I saw darker episode's the previous season. It really depends on one's own definition of "dark".
Green Lantern's Nightlight

Greg B.>Yeah, that's a good point. I do still like having a final end to the story, though, whereas I'm pretty sure I would have had to lose touch with the series if Greg had continued it. And I definitely wouldn't have wanted that.
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.

ARLO> See, I don't think of that as a sad ending for "Gargoyles" as much as back story for "Gargoyles 2198." I don't think "Gargoyles" itself would have lasted long enough to get to Goliath's sacrifice.

I don't see "Gargoyles" having a definitive end because life does go on and that's always how Greg's approached it. Whether it was "Reawakening" or "Hunter's Moon" or "The Journey" or "Phoenix" of "Losers." It's not about the end, but the journey itself.

If Greg ever decided he was done with "Gargoyles" he would most likely give it an open-end that didn't contradict his timeline because these characters and that world will live on in our hearts and minds.

And there have been children's shows where the hero died at the end. "Beast Machines" comes to mind... Optimus Primal died to defeat Megatron and save Cybertron from his clutches. It wasn't a good show, but that aspect of it wasn't the problem. The real problems are a whole other conversation.

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.

Antiyonder> That's very true, about how sad endings can be good if done correctly. I guess what I'm trying to say is it just doesn't feel like Gargoyles to me if Goliath died. Roots, maybe. I just feel like a story that tragic would take it out of the realm of children's show completely (at least for me), whereas one of the things that made it great was that it was a children's show that wrote on multiple levels.

Anyway, this is just how I feel about it. If the rest of you feel you would have no qualms about a story like that, more power to you.

Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.

HARLAN PHOENIX - [Besides, if I had to think of any sort of parallel worlds Gargoyles should have for whatever reason, I'd rather have a universe where Goliath was awake for 1000 years and a third universe where cartoon gargoyles routinely foil Xavier and his devious aardvark assistant.]

And from there, we might be in danger of those cartoon gargoyle straying into the regular Gargoyles Universe, and Goliath and his clan having to tell them - and quickly, for those visitors' good - that the enemies in this universe are a lot tougher and more competent than Xavier and Dakota. (Except that "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" already did just such a crossover a few years ago.)

Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders

Arlo> As much as I'm a happy ending person, I can enjoy a somber or bittersweet ending just the same if it's done well.

And I'd have to say that Goliath's death, while a downer does begin the road to improvement towards the Gargoyles/Humans relations, which if anything is at least hopeful.

Anyway, for the fun of it, I'll add some other Gargoyles continuums to the list:
1-2. To recap, there's the universe that would have been seen in the comedy development and the other development in which Goliath is awake for 1,000 years.

3. The continuum in the Disney Adventure comics. One of the stories (Stone Cold) served as a bit of inspiration for The Price.

4. The continuum in the Sega Genesis game, which is where the Eye of Odin is first shown (albeit different than canon).

Antiyonder

Agreed.

But at the same time, this is technically a children's cartoon, and one I only find the time to watch all the way through about once every couple of years or so. I have to wonder how out of hand that would have gotten, if the overall story had never ended, as Greg had said he planned to always keep telling stories. As much as I'd like to see more of his stories, I have to think I eventually would have had to fall out of touch with the series if it had continued. Having it as a nice story I can find the time to watch every couple of years is nice, and I think finally having the happy ending is more consistent with a children's cartoon, without taking away from the depth that made the series great.

Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.

ARLO>

<< it's a bit disappointing to learn that in Greg's version, Goliath is going to die before that ever happens.>>

But it's a lot more true to life, and a lot more powerful than how TGC did it. Look at Martin Luther King or Mahatma Gandhi or Harvey Milk, or... I think we can all name dozens of examples. I think that martyring Goliath is a lot more real, honest, and dramatic than saving a train from Snidely Whiplash.

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.

Damn, Greg B. You know this site too well. But it is nice to have a partial tongue-in-cheek confirmation from Weisman ;)


Harlan & Comet> Yes, I was being tongue-in-cheek. But okay, I'm obsessed with trying to fit TGC and the Marvel comics in somehow, I'll admit it. Don't know what it is. Maybe it's that for a long time, I didn't know the backstory of how Greg got taken off from TGC, and I thought it was all the same show. I never got to watch much of it because of the different airing schedule, but I was aware of the finale where they finally made peace with the humans, and it's a bit disappointing to learn that in Greg's version, Goliath is going to die before that ever happens.

Also, us die-hard fans can keep track of what's canon easily enough, but I would have to think new fans would have some problems. There's one comic series which is canon and one which isn't. Two seasons of the TV series which are canon and one which isn't. It's all a bit much to keep track of if a person isn't already in love with Gargoyles, like the rest of us.

Don't get me wrong. I have respect for what Greg went through when the series was taken away from him. I think it's atrocious, and I also believe intellectual property should be the property of its creators and not a corporation. But yes, there's just something in me which is determined to reconcile all this, for the reasons I've explained above.

Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.

The pure existence of multiverses is not the same as connecting them (which I don't like). The Magus is dead in the canon universe. That's it. For this universe it doesn't matter if he's not in another. Hey, there may even be universes where he not even exists. That doesn't change our "canon universe"... the only people who seriously think about such things are some writers of absurd fanfic, maybe.
I'm not one of them, lol.

Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=1711
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.

Well, there are infinite multiverses, so there are theoretically also infinite versions of the Gargoyles universe. Of course we don't know them all and we also don't need to know them all. Some of them may seem downright ridiculous from our viewpoint. The only of these universes I'm interested in is the canon universe (you know which one I mean).
Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!

Is "multiverse" any better? Really, a multiverse is a giant non-answer. It's saying they "matter", but don't actually matter. If Gargoyles ever did do multiverse stuff, it's not like it'd crossover into TGC and Marvel. Purporting that the stories "exist", in that there is a make-believe, tangible portion of space in which the stories inhabit...doesn't really change the stories one way or another. I get that you're being slightly tongue in cheek, but I don't really see how making these their own "real" universes in some wider cluster of worlds that don't really interact matters at all. The notion of fictional canons as tangible places and some being made parallel so they "mattered" never made sense to me, even when DC does it.

Besides, if I had to think of any sort of parallel worlds Gargoyles should have for whatever reason, I'd rather have a universe where Goliath was awake for 1000 years and a third universe where cartoon gargoyles routinely foil Xavier and his devious aardvark assistant.

Harlan Phoenix

People didn't take it well when I suggested that TGC and the comics both took place in the canon universe.
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.

Why do multiple works about the same characters require a multiverse at all?
Harlan Phoenix

Okay, here's my latest theory for TGC and the Marvel comics:

There are multiple Gargoyles universes, just like Star Trek has the evil universe where Captain Kirk was a tyrant, all those alternate quantum realities that Lieutenant Worf traveled to in that one episode, and the alternate reality where Vulcan was destroyed.

TGC and the Marvel comics each take place in their own universes, and that's why there are certain cosmic cross-overs from time to time, such as Elisa dressing up as Jasmine in the canon universe, after looking like her in "Seeing Isn't Believing." Or the exchange between Hudson and Robbins. And that's also why certain characters behave out of character (e.g. Fox crying and clutching a teddy bear on her rocking chair) in the TGC-verse: it's like Kirk being a tyrant in the evil universe!

Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.

I tend to agree with you, Brainiac. From what information we have (and a whole lot of assumption and educated guessing), I'd say that the coloring genes would not be passed on. So Malibu and Delilah's hypothetical daughter could well have Brooklyn's coloring. That said, I don't think it is going to happen. I think that if they do produce biological children, their parents weird colorings would be passed on. Not because Greg wants to spite biology, but because it would make them more distinctive as a clan. If the odd colorings die out, the Labyrinth Clan would start to look a lot like the Manhattan Clan, moreso than they do already.

Of course, what I really suspect is going to happen given LOTS of clues is that the clones will be unable to reproduce at all and that they will resort to cloning themselves to continue the clan.

Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Thats three down and two to go..." -Sevarius, "The Reckoning"

Brack> Without an official answer from Greg himself, I side with the discoloration being an alteration at the phenotypic level rather than the genotypic and thus not being passed on. Besides, even if the effect is indeed genetic rather than epigenetic, it could still fail to pass on as it may only affect the somatic cells (the lineage that leads to your physiology) and not the germline cells (the lineage that leads to your reproductive material). Those two lines split off from one another VERY early during in utero development (and amusingly enough, the principle that hereditary information moves only from germline cells to somatic cells and never in reverse is known as the Weismann barrier).

Also, since no one has posted it yet...here's the preview for tomorrow's episode of Invasion, Darkest: http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/2012/10/05/images-video-description-from-upcoming-episode-of-young-justice-invasion-animated-series/

Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

If two clones were to mate and have children would they pass on their negative skin coloration, or the skin coloration of the original genetic donor. I was thinking that if the different coloration is purely cosmetic or superficial than the latter would be true. But if the change in color happens on a genetic level due to acceleration then this is what would be passed On, including the reverse eye color. Any theories?
Brack

Or maybe Elisa just sees Goliath that way so Puck followed suit.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Thats three down and two to go..." -Sevarius, "The Reckoning"

Ah, true.
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.

Puck might not have any direct interest in Goliath's and Elisa's relationship, but Demona certainly does, and Puck does enjoy messing with Demona.
Paul - [nampahcfluap@yahoo.com]

Ah, thank you, Paul, that does make some sense. But since when does Puck care about the romance between Goliath and Elisa?
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.

Pardon me while I get my thoughts in order...

If I understand the question and answer correctly, Elisa was the reason why Puck gave Goliath darker skin than the other gargoyles of the Manhattan Clan.

Elisa is part-black, part-Native American; perhaps she would be attracted to somebody of a darker skin tone as well.

Conclusion: Puck was deliberately making Goliath more attractive to Elisa.

Paul - [nampahcfluap@yahoo.com]

Can anyone make sense of this answer? I don't get it.
http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=11012

Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.

Chrome user here. Love it.
Anthony Tini

Todd:

Here's Firefox
http://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/new/

Here's Chrome
https://www.google.com/intl/en/chrome/browser/?&brand=CHMB&utm_campaign=en&utm_source=en-ha-na-us-sk&utm_medium=ha

I prefer Chrome myself, just download and install and you're good to go. It's easy.

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.

How do you switch browsers from Internet Explorer to, say, Firefox?
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders

GLN> There must be a problem with your browser? Do you use Internet Explorer? If you do, that's your problem... it's a terrible browser. Firefox or Chrome are better choices.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.

Well thank-you. I thought about signing up if not just to see if that image/logo in the top left hand will move away from blocking the text. I read/contribute to a couple of independent wikis, but I'm not really into them per say. I don't if there's any difference between logged in and un-logged users.
Green Lantern's Nightlight

Using Greg Weisman's first name all the time was just an additional thought and not to be seen as an attack against anyone in particular. <So drop your weapons guys... ;)>
Green Lantern's Nightlight

GLN> <<I find the site helpful, but I just would like fully realised summaries from beginning to end instead of just being briefed on the essential(s).>>

You are free to come and write them.

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.

Yes, but you have extremely condensed summaries spilt into a main plot and a subplot and then a link to a full summary from an external site which I find a bit cheated out of. Any worse and it would be presented in bullet points. And those external sites also have the exact same tidbits at the end like the wiki does. Which came first? I find the site helpful, but I just would like fully realised summaries from beginning to end instead of just being briefed on the essential(s).

And you can't go few lines without one line reading "Greg says..." which I find a bit to personal using the man's first name all the time because it implies some kind of personal relationship which none of us have as much as some of us would like to.

Green Lantern's Nightlight

GLN> What are you talking about? GargWiki does have episode summaries. And I've taken a look at the YJ Wiki. It's very well done, but I think GargWiki is a tad better. If it was mentioned in the show or by Greg, we have it. If we don't have it yet, we soon will.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.

I missed this one from last week, but it's definitely worth taking a look at.

http://theurbandaily.com/1950226/young-justice-black-superheroes/

Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

It's not as good as YJ Wiki though. At least with that you get complete episode summaries and there's no fan review of the comics. I find most external sites to be less appealing than the ones from the main wikia, but at least the external ones aren't abused by Wikia's constant "improvements".
Green Lantern's Nightlight

People from other Gargoyles wikis tend to... borrow from GargWiki because it is generally the most complete, most organized, most accurate and most grammatically correct (and thus readable) of all the Gargoyles wikis.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Thats three down and two to go..." -Sevarius, "The Reckoning"

COMET> I don't know, and unless anyone here edits there, I think you'd be better off asking them.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.

Um.... why is this text exactly the same like in GargWiki and that "members" part the same like in that "grimorum" wiki?
http://disney.wikia.com/wiki/Demona%27s_Clan
Didn't look at the other articles but I doubt it's different for them.

Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!

HA!
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Thats three down and two to go..." -Sevarius, "The Reckoning"

And another interview has gone up, this time on World's Finest. Also, I would call everyone's attention to a specific response about halfway through that should elicit a chuckle:

http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/2012/10/02/producer-greg-weisman-discusses-the-world-of-young-justice-invasion/

Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

To Marvelman, I like that insight and comparsion to Hamlet. There was a lot use of Shakespeare in Gargoyles so I wonder if that applies with Superboy's current feelings and thoughts about Miss Martian. I am hoping against hope and the signs that they'll get back together and STAY together. Hamlet believed that his love betrayed him but she didn't and I am hoping that's the case for M'Gann with Conner. That, ultimately, it was all for him or that something within her is beyond her control if her original history is any indication.
SuperMartian89 - [divafairyazura@yahoo.com]
SuperMartian89

You know, I think it's terribly unfair for one person to clog up the unanswered questions queue like that. What say you?
Zergrinch

http://www.toplessrobot.com/2012/10/me_grimlock_no_bozo_me_hoodie.php

Extreme design hoodies are very popular. If there was a Gargoyles themed hoodie, what features would you like for it to have?

It would most likely be Goliath and Demona Their horn ridges and crown would be on the hood. Maybe some sewn in gloves that look like talons.

What else?

Lurker - [johnr783@hotmail.com]

E-mailed Disney again. STILL only tentative plans. Jeez!
Arlo
Gargoyles need not apply.

Britgirl: I've done so. But I wouldn't bother posting a new version unless it's on a different subject entirely, because that question is a spoiler request and clearly violates guideline #1.

I will delete any question asking about a character or a team that has not yet appeared in Earth-16 canon.

Masterdramon - [kmc12009@mymail.pomona.edu]
"Purple haze, all in my brain..." - Jimi Hendrix

"How can you be so calm?!"
"Practice. I've been doing this since I was nine."

Ross
"Oh villain! Villain! Smiling cursed villain! That one might smile and smile, and be a villain! Gooo VILLAIN! Whooooo! Yeah!" -- Sally Avril

I wish I had time for a snack.

You just ate.

I know, Chinese food. It was good, too. But for some reason, an hour later, I was hungry again.

;)

Anthony Tini - [anthonyotini@gmail.com]

http://s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=17154

Can someone delete that question please? I'll like to repost a better written version.

Britgirl - [ehgirl15@hotmail.com]

"But the process requires zero-point-one-six nanoseconds to fully integrate with its host's nervous system. That delay allowed me to create an internal sub-program which would disconnect my power cells if I attempted to infect another person." - Red Tornado
Masterdramon - [kmc12009@mymail.pomona.edu]
"Purple haze, all in my brain..." - Jimi Hendrix

"There were FIVE: Cassidy, Halinor, Yan Lin, Kadma, and Nerissa."
- The Oracle.

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.

"You're FOUR years older -- and when you're seventy and I'm sixty-six, I'll seem quite the catch!" -- Peter Parker to Betty Brant, "The Invisible Hand"

Sorry, couldn't think of another Gargoyles quote, lol.

Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible, I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka

Third.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Thats three down and two to go..." -Sevarius, "The Reckoning"

"You two probably want to be alone."
Battle Beast - [Canada]
I did it! I watched all 485 Best picture nominees in 365 days!

But first, I'll take care of some unfinished business.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!