A Station Eight Fan Web Site

Gargoyles

The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending August 26, 2002

Index : Show Images

AIRWALKER - Good point about S&P people needing to read the story all the way through. Greg Weisman mentioned at the Gathering 2001 that his S&P executive for "Gargoyles" did just that - particularly citing the case of "Metamorphosis" with Sevarius's "death scene". Adrienne initially raised her eyebrows over that part, but read the whole script before speaking to Greg about it, and after seeing that it turns out at the end that Sevarius was just faking it as part of his and Xanatos's scheme, didn't object to it. (As Greg pointed out, she was a very understanding person. We need more folks like her in S&P).

One thing that would be really fun to see the New Olympians' arrival bring about is a revolution in the study of Greek mythology. I mean, suddenly humanity discovers that there really were (and still are) minotaurs, centaurs, sphinxes, etc. Just think what that'll do to the study of Greek myths and their origins! Almost every book on the subject (especially the origins part) will be immediately rendered obsolete. After all, who, in all seriousness (except for a few crackpots of the von Daniken variety) would have seriously believed that there really were such beings existing once, prior to the New Olympians' arrival? (The general theory over the Minotaur, for example, would be that it was just a symbol for bull-worship in Minoan Crete).

Actually, that could make for an amusing episode: some professor has just finished writing a book all about the origins of the various unusual beings in classical mythology, using all the "conventional explanations" for them (the Minotaur as a religious icon for the Minoans as above, Centaurs as a totem for a horse-riding tribe in northern Greece or maybe a case of Greeks that had never seen horsemen before believing, upon first getting a glimpse of them, that they were some sort of weird horse-man hybrids, etc.), and then, just as it's about to get published, the New Olympians arrive and thereby unwittingly completely demolish his theories. Resulting in the professor showing a lot of hostility towards the New Olympians over having invalidated his research - possibly even telling them "You keep quiet! I'm the expert on this subject!"

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Sunday, August 25, 2002 07:13:59 PM
IP: 63.208.46.234

Matt > I remember the Battle Beasts. It was kind of a silly take-off on Paper Rock Scissors. Basically there were all these action figures with these holographic chest plates that could only be read if you rubbed them with your fingers. They were all either Fire, Water, or Wood - the premise was that Fire-types beat Wood-types, Wood beat Water, and Water beat Fire (sounds kind of like Pokemon, doesnt it? Water tops Fire, Fire tops Grass, Grass tops Water). But you didnt know if the Beast you were buying was which type because it was wrapped in plastic.

Basically, I just remember this because they played the commercial nonstop for a couple months ("Fire!" "Water, water put out fire!" blah blah blah). I never owned any.

Weak points of TGC > I could go on about this, but I dont have the time just yet. But Demona (who was criminally underused) wasnt even the only one to get precious little airtime, despite her earlier importance. Macbeth got even less time than she did. (To be honest, I thought every villain who lost screen time to the Q-men got ripped off.)

Sincerely, Allaine

Allaine - [eac2nd@yahoo.com]
Philadelphia, PA
Sunday, August 25, 2002 04:48:57 PM
IP: 64.12.96.138

Weekday animation> It is a shame that weekday animation is dead these days. All the kids these days have soccer practice, piano lessons, etc. But I think it could still be a viable medium if only some company would get the balls to contend with WB. Time-Warner (the owners of WB and CN) being the liberal minded folks they are seem to be the only ones taking a chance with animation. Meanwhile, the other companies such as Fox, Disney, etc. have notions that exposing kids to any amount if realism will emotionally scar them or something. So what we have here is a situation where the only people that can challenge Time-Warner end up making absolute crap because they've dumbed down their shows to the point where even 5 yr. olds find it sappy and unrealistic. So they stick to their Ricky-Lake clones so they can have a safe bet while Time-Warner is allowing their creators the freedom to create quality.
So the problem in short:
1. Everyone is afraid to challenge Time-Warner who has a stranglehold on animation of all sorts.
2. The other guys aren't willing to make the necessary changes to be able to contend with Time-Warner.
3. But if those guys do make the necessary changes, they can come up with some original material, thereby competing with Time-Warner thereby leading to quality material being made across the board and viola, the weekday afternoon market is back.
Weekday animation could be revived if only someone would get the balls to take a chance, despite the fact that so many kids "have better things to do" these days.

Jimmy
Sunday, August 25, 2002 03:14:46 PM
IP: 172.155.54.150

GREG BISHANSKY - You wrote: [Well, the Gathering is in New York City this year, and since you live in Brooklyn, you really have no excuse for not coming ;)]

Yeah, this year I'm going to put some major effort into trying to make it. Of course who knows what excuses I'll come up with between now and July. :-) :-)



TODD - You wrote: [I couldn't help but wonder about that. Has Matrix become sentient enough to enjoy music, or was he simply listening to it in a bemused effort to find out why humans like it?]

Given that he wasn't exactly sentient in WALKABOUT and that it would take a good amount of time to achieve a true level of sentience I think that its more likely that he might have been listening to try and figure out why Humans have an interest in it - it seems more set in the direction of evolution than an actual sign of evolution. (Of course not having seen the BAD GUYS reel and in the absence of BAD GUYS from any place on TV that's just complete speculation; but it sounds right to me.)

You wrote: [I do think that S&P aren't ideally suited for "Gargoyles" these days, judging by a story that Greg Weisman told at the Gathering 2001.]

Yeah; but it could also depend on who they actually get to supervise the S&P - when the show was running they had a pretty understanding person in charge. If they got someone equally understanding in a revived series then their shouldn't be too much of a problem although overall some things that were done then just can't be done now (the whole punching the screen when hitting the opponent in the face, no use of the word terrorists, etc).

Still any revived series would I think need some understanding applied to it in the S&P department since a drama isn't going to work well with a Saturday Morning action cartoon standards applied to it. (That might have been what the problem was with the S&P on the TEAM ATLANTIS episode - they weren't treating it like a drama but more as a standard action adventure series though since I don't know the full story this is mainly just a guess on my part. Still they do seem to have gone way overboard in my opinion; how is a show supposed to have any suspence at all if your going to be that strict? At the very least they could at least read all the way through the script - it almost reminds me of the beginning of one of the Simpson Halloween Specials where the FOX censor is going through the script sanatizing everything funny from it "protect" the public. He didn't bother to read the thing through first before applying S&P standards either. Got what he deserved too. :-) (Just Kidding!! :-) :-) )

You wrote: [In light of that, I'd definitely say that "Gargoyles" would have a tough time with the S&P department today. (I also agree that "Gargoyles" is much better suited for an afternoon/evening time-slot than a morning one).]

Again I think that it would really depend on when and where the series is being shown; if its Saturday Morning then S&P is going to cripple it. (TV-Y7 is a good standard (as it was in the mid 90's anyway) but trying to make it TV-Y or even more restricted is just another way of saying "Let's not do it at all".) But if we are talking about cable then I think that they would have slightly more leeway. Timeslot also adds into this - a morning slot is worse than a late afternoon/early evening or late night slot.

Honestly there are really only three outlets for animation nowadays - Saturday Morning, Cable, and OVAs. The weekday animation market is either dying or dead. I mean how much animation do we really see on the weekdays anymore? Disney Afternoon is dead, FOX barely shows anything animated anymore, and UPN is basically showing ABC's Saturday Morning line-up on Sunday Morning. The only one doing anything is the WB and even that is mostly still Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh with an occasional Static Shock, Jackie Chan Adventures, and X-Men Evolution thrown in.

The only new market to tap is on Cable. CN is going strong and while Toonami is mainly dedicated to action shows the rest of the line-up isn't dumbed down because of it; in fact they've managed to experiment and bring some interesting character driven shows on - mostly in the evenings and on Adult Swim but still they are doing it.

The real last market for Disney (unless they find a way to revive the Disney Afternoon which is impossible due to the changes that have happened on TV - the networks that hosted it in the 80's and 90's don't exist anymore) is cable where TOON DISNEY has yet to do any new, original programming. At this point the channel is sort of like early CN and completely like Boomerang is now - entirely reruns. It has tons of potential especially in its afternoon and evening/late night hours. That's the only place that I can really recommend a revival for (or at the very least for one (or all :-) of the spin-offs) for. The S&P wouldn't be as much of a problem, the atmosphere and timeslot could fit well and we could even get proper CN-like advertising for the series. (Who wouldn't want to see CN do a commercial for GARGOYLES? :-) )

Barring that the only route I can see is OVA which is just a kind way of saying limited mini-series revival (which is better than nothing after all). Again there chances are that S&P can be a little more understanding and you don't have to worry about getting it on the air, just making sure that it sells well so that more gets made. The only problem with this is that the OVA market is different here than in Japan - there isn't any guarantee that we'd get anything more than one OVA done even if it sells well. And OVAs here tend to have slightly less quality put into the animation than the original story had (although they aren't horrible on their own in the animation department - just weaker in comparison to the original). Only Disney has the strength and age to be able to effect change in that market but that still wouldn't help us do anything more than get one or two more GARGOYLES stories out - it would be a sort of stillborn revival although we can hope that it would work out differently. (A successful OVA could lead to a new TV series but again unless its on cable or gets tons of slack on Saturday Morning TV in S&P then we end up with the same problem we started talking about.)

Thats why I'd rather get some sort of alternate format revival - comics/GN or books or even radio plays. That last one would be interesting - we wouldn't have the animation but we'd still have the vocal casts work to listion to. (But Radio drama's here are a dream - they probably wouldn't be marketed properly and probably wouldn't sell that well. This isn't Japan after all. But its not a bad idea. :-) ) Those formats give us at least the same standard S&P the series had if not an even better one. Books (with a few illustrations in them of course) could work out having S&P thats even better than what we had been getting on TV although since its a Disney product something might be imposed by them; still prose is a different animal than animation and would have different requirements than TV animation. But realistically the only other format I could see if it isn't on TV/Cable/OVA is comic books/GN which still works out pretty well - again the Comic Code Authority is about the same as 1994 S&P standards. If it had a reliable (and good) artist then it could do well.

You wrote: [Actually, I hope that the revelation of the New Olympians wouldn't have that big an impact on human-gargoyle relations, because, dramatically speaking, it wouldn't work very well. It would be resolving one of the main issues in "Gargoyles" via a group of relatively minor figures (the New Olympians), mainly through what they do in a spin-off, rather than by anything that Goliath and his clan themselves would do.]

That's why I think that a NEW OLYMPIAN spinoff wouldn't be a good idea at this time. I don't know where Greg put their appearance in his timeline but the honest truth is that if they appear anytime before 20 to 30 years in the future it does sort of upset the Gargoyle/Human interaction balance. New Olympian appearance and interaction on the world stage would have some impact no matter how much it would conflict with plots in GARGOYLES; even with the NOlympian Gargoyles being isolationist and not really part of the New Olympian republic, the NOlympians would probably feel the need to do something against what they would see as extreme persecution of non-Humans by Humans. At the very least they would say something, if not do something stronger. That would change the entire dynamic.

If New Olympus revealed itself but only many years after Gargoyles appeared (lets say a generation later) it would still be a more or less contemporary event but it wouldn't have as much of an effect on early Gargoyle/Human interaction. In fact it could be argued that some time living and dealing with the idea of Gargoyles would help set the groundworks for the New Olympians to be able to be more easily accepted without as much doubt. They wouldn't have to really argue out the questions of sentience since they'd have already done some of it in discussions over Gargoyles. And this way would leave the field open for Goliath and Company to change Gargoyle/Human relations without major outside intervention that the New Olympian would be.

You wrote: [I'd rather not have the humans vs. gargoyles tension resolved with the New Olympians serving as almost a "deus ex machina" for it (although I doubt that that's quite what you had in mind for their role).]

I don't think that New Olympus revealing itself would lead to Humans accepting Gargoyles; only that a powerful non-Human nation would be able to be a sort of patron and protector of the non-Human races. Humans attitudes towards Gargoyles wouldn't change but the nature of the argument would. Can they maintain that they are still animals if the New Olympians decide to be represented by a Gargoyle for example? Can they have mobs calling for the destruction of the Gargoyles if the New Olympians (with superior technology) threaten war if such a thing were to happen? Just the appearance on the world stage of mythological creatures in a modern nation state (a democracy no less! :-) ) changes everything. The Minotaur was a mindless beast according to myth but how can that be maintained if you've got one walking around and you have to do business with him? And Gargoyles are just another myth in that universe, on the level of the Greek Mythological creatures. If perceptions and opinions on one change then odds are good that there would have to be a reevalution on the other.

In fact the nature of the debate would shift from "are they sentient or animals?" to "are they a security threat to the nation?" or "are they a fifth column for the New Olympians?" or "why not deport them all to New Olympus?" and so on and so forth. It jumps everything ahead instead of allowing it to develop quietly. A TGC version of the Trial of Goliath becomes more realistic since the question of his sentience is more or less (but not completely) taken out of the argument. It gets replaced by a completely different argument.

You wrote: [Of the new antagonists (other than the Quarrymen), the invisible guy in "Generations" was the only one who really felt like a proper opponent from the gargoyles of the sort that would have been in the first two seasons.]

I never really thought that highly of him; after all what was his motivation anyway? When Macbeth attacked it was to get to Demona; when the Pack attacked it was first for sport and then for revenge; even Castaway's fight was mainly a way for him to deal with his issues. But what was this guy's motivation other than hating the Gargoyles? And even then if he's willing to take help from a Gargoyle (Demona) then is he really attacking for hate? What is he really attacking the others for? He seemed to be just as one dimensional as any other villain in TGC except that unlike the others he was the only original TGC villain that had the potential to be developed into something more. As he was, he wasn't particularly interesting or spectacular.

You wrote: [It particularly strains credulity to think that the gargoyles could be having such problems with low-level villains after having successfully (more or less) fought off Xanatos, Demona, Macbeth, the Pack, Thailog, and the Hunters.]

True. Although the Gargoyles have never actually really defeated any of these opponents (other than the Pack). Most of the time they just stop them from doing what they wanted to do and then go home which isn't really defeating them, just thwarting them. :-) The rest of the time the opponent usually gives up and stops fighting. (It was one of the elements of the series that I loved - they were heroes and so usually came up more or less in a better position than the villain most of the time but the way they won was realistic; they never really defeat their enemies. I loved how Elisa brought that up in AVALON 2 and how Goliath had to acknowledge it. How many heroes have to admit that none of their victories really meant anything? :-) )

You wrote: [Did Xanatos really believe that Goliath would ever agree to it?]

Maybe; although the point could have been more to reset the clock than to let the Gargoyles escape; after all if they are dead then after a while the city will move on, people will forget about them, and the Quarryman threat wouldn't really have anything to hold it together (in theory). After a while the Clan could easily go back out to a situation similier to pre-HUNTERS MOON. The city would still have Gargoyle sightings but since they'd have been confirmed dead who would really believe that they were anything other than urban myth? (And if the Quarrymen disband, even if Castaway hears about it he won't be able to reconstitute the group easily; he'd have to go back to being the Hunter instead of a Quarryman which would make him easier to deal with if Xanatos (Or Demona or Thailog) doesn't deal with him first in the meantime.) That plan was more magic reset button than escape plan.

You wrote: [Not to mention that I don't think that there'd be anywhere in the world that the gargoyles would be safe from the Quarrymen, except for Avalon.]

There are places; what about Antarctica? What about Northern Canada/Alaska? What about the Australian Outback? What about Xanadu or any other Xanatos estate? (In fact all of this, even the end of HUNTERS MOON plays into what Xanatos himself argued to Goliath in THE EDGE; they need a patron with resources and Xanatos is the only one who can really fit the bill - a good ironic twist. :-) )

They wouldn't be able to protect Humans but they could find other things to protect like some of the other Clans. The Clan with a real problem is London; what happens if the Quarrymen decide to check out a strange shop where the owners dress as "magical creatures" or if they hear of the end of M.I.A sighting of Gargoyles? (Griff leaving was a pretty good plan in the short term; he's not around London enough to cause the public to have too many Gargoyle sightings and attract Quarrymen attention.)



SCOTT - You wrote: [I think if Matrix is going to enjoy any kind of music, it will be because Dingo also likes said music. Or maybe I'm reading too much into Matrix saying that they were "joined" or "one."]

I checked the archive and according to Greg, Matrix is only merged with Dingo's armor. But its still probably a strong possibility that a lot of things that Matrix will take an interest in will be due to introduction by Dingo.

You wrote: [Anyway, Matrix does exist on some level in the DreamTime, which suggests some ability to interact with differing levels of consciousness. It could be that merging with Dingo has in some way allowed him to become like Dingo.]

That's actually not a bad idea. :-) I was more inclinded to think that Matrix would start to assimilate Dingo more physically over time, a little bit unconsciously (if such a thing is possible for a machine) and a bit to try and evolve him/herself and his/her programming. But assimilating/interacting on the subconscious level to the point of merging/assimilating is an interesting direction to go in. (In fact in order to get a stronger grasp on Matrix and help him/her develop Dingo might have to become more spiritual - it'd be funny to see his spirit still around in 2198 in the Dream Time looking similier to the WALKABOUT Shaman and trying to direct/help Matrix or at the very least keep him company. It could even almost be sort of like the end of return of the Jedi with the Spirits of Dingo and Shaman (and maybe even Robyn) standing around watching everything. :-) )



VASHKODA - You wrote: [It's too bad you didn't reveal your liking of the Golem story sooner--I would have recommended that you see an off-broadway production of it at the Manhattan Ensemble Theater]

Sounds interesting. Although to be honest while I'm pretty sure that it would be an enjoyable play and a good experience, I usually find myself strongly disagreeing with the sentience giving that a lot of Golem surrounding productions give it - it usually kills them for me. I find it very difficult to accept; I can make the leap in logic but prefer the original direction of the legend. The reasons for non-sentience in the original legend seem more logical to me than having the being start out sentient.



MATT - You wrote: [ok, got a kinda weird question: does anyone remember a toy from the late 80's called a Battle Beast?]

Sorry, it sounds familier but I just can't remember it.



Say anyone remember a 1980 cable special that was sort of like the Secret of Nimh but wasn't? :-) It was an animated movie that played on Channel WHT (I think that this channel eventually morphed into USA) and it was the story of some sort of pet squirrel (or maybe a Hamster, it was on something like 16 years ago so I don't remember it THAT well :-) ) that was told of the great outdoors by some sort of Bird or Owl and decided to leave and head out there; along the way he gets a companion and at the end finally makes it there. Sounds like Secret of Nimh but isn't. Nimh could pass for a sequel to it though. It was something I enjoyed watching when I was really young and I just can't for the life of me remember what it was called. Any ideas? It was a 1980's thing. I'm just curious for nostalgia sake.

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Sunday, August 25, 2002 11:34:27 AM
IP: 12.88.115.22

ok, got a kinda weird question: does anyone remember a toy from the late 80's called a Battle Beast? they were about an inch all robot animal guys... i've become a nostalgic collector of these toys from my childhood and i only have a few so far and was wondering if anyone here has any and if so is wanting to sell. thought i'd check with you people before i go to eBay... good condition is important, but loose figures is fine. thanx guys and gals!
matt
Sunday, August 25, 2002 03:42:26 AM
IP: 207.230.48.6

Heh, I'm watching the 1 AM X-files ep and it just happens to be about a golem. ;) I'm guessing the fact that Greg hasn't shown up this week means the episode discussion has been postponed til next week.

Airwalker> It's too bad you didn't reveal your liking of the Golem story sooner--I would have recommended that you see an off-broadway production of it at the Manhattan Ensemble Theater (linked to my name; unfortunately, it was only playing in the spring). The stage decorations were fantastic, as was the guy playing the Golem (but in this version of the story, he could talk and feel, and craved the love of his 'father', but the rabbi only thought of him as a mindless weapon). There were a lot of other interesting characters as well, such as the homeless Jews sheltering in the tower with the Golem, the rabbi's daughter, the mad priest, and a pair of weary travelers whose help the rabbi refused (it was hinted that they were Jesus and a disciple).

Jim R.> Still no luck uploading the music video?

Vashkoda
Sunday, August 25, 2002 02:04:17 AM
IP: 129.98.123.136

Matrix > I think if Matrix is going to enjoy any kind of music, it will be because Dingo also likes said music. Or maybe I'm reading too much into Matrix saying that they were "joined" or "one." (Anyone got a quote?)

Anyway, Matrix does exist on some level in the DreamTime, which suggests some ability to interact with differing levels of consciousness. It could be that merging with Dingo has in some way allowed him to become like Dingo. And maybe the reverse.

Anyone know what kind of music Dingo likes?


Scott Iskow - [smiskow@lycos.com]
Sunday, August 25, 2002 01:53:26 AM
IP: 68.50.37.201

Probably the feature that intrigued me the most about the "Bad Guys" leica reel when I saw it at the Gathering last year was that there was a scene, near the beginning, where Matrix was shown listening to a boom box (actually, an extension of himself that had become a boom box). I couldn't help but wonder about that. Has Matrix become sentient enough to enjoy music, or was he simply listening to it in a bemused effort to find out why humans like it?

I do think that S&P aren't ideally suited for "Gargoyles" these days, judging by a story that Greg Weisman told at the Gathering 2001. He was working on an episode for "Team Atlantis" involving the Loch Ness Monster. The notion was that a little girl would go straying into a cave near Loch Ness, and come upon a very odd part of the cave - followed suddenly by an off-stage scream from her, immediately afterwards followed by an off-stage bellow from the Loch Ness Monster.

Then the protagonists arrive at Loch Ness, discover how the little girl has disappeared, and that she's been supposedly eaten by Nessie. However, after doing some investigation, they discover that that little girl *is* Nessie, and that the odd part of the cave that she'd entered was actually a transformation chamber - followed by their needing to find some way of getting her back to normal. But the S&P people wouldn't accept the story on the grounds of "you can't have a little girl being eaten by a monster", without even reading the script all the way through and finding out that she wasn't eaten at all. (It's more complicated than that, actually - but you can probably get the details from Greg himself next time you're at a Gathering).

In light of that, I'd definitely say that "Gargoyles" would have a tough time with the S&P department today. (I also agree that "Gargoyles" is much better suited for an afternoon/evening time-slot than a morning one).

Actually, I hope that the revelation of the New Olympians wouldn't have that big an impact on human-gargoyle relations, because, dramatically speaking, it wouldn't work very well. It would be resolving one of the main issues in "Gargoyles" via a group of relatively minor figures (the New Olympians), mainly through what they do in a spin-off, rather than by anything that Goliath and his clan themselves would do. I'd rather not have the humans vs. gargoyles tension resolved with the New Olympians serving as almost a "deus ex machina" for it (although I doubt that that's quite what you had in mind for their role).

As for the weak points of "The Goliath Chronicles", I can think of several (even if this is a bit repetitive):

1. Overfocus on the "humans hating gargoyles" element (largely, I suspect, due to the new production team assuming that its being there in "The Journey" meant that it would be the main plot element in the "Goliath Chronicles"). Not to mention that it isn't even handled all that well: most of the gargoyle-haters don't seem to have any reason for hating gargoyles other than "they're the villains", especially the Quarrymen (whose awareness that the gargoyles protect the innocent - as is made clear by a lot of their stratagems - completely destroys their motivation). Whenever the gargoyles actually make some progress, it is forgotten in the next episode (at least "To Serve Mankind" provided an explanation for it). And barely anybody seems to be bothered by the fact that the Quarrymen's anti-gargoyle tactics are doing a lot more damage to the city than the gargoyles ever did (especially the bit about "How can Castaway still be out and about in 'Angels in the Night' after what he did in 'For It May Come True'?")

2. A shortage of good antagonists; they're nearly all extremely ordinary and colorless figures such as Pat Doyle, Radar, the gargoyle-hunters in "A Bronx Tail" and the nameless gangster in "And Justice For All". Of the new antagonists (other than the Quarrymen), the invisible guy in "Generations" was the only one who really felt like a proper opponent from the gargoyles of the sort that would have been in the first two seasons. It particularly strains credulity to think that the gargoyles could be having such problems with low-level villains after having successfully (more or less) fought off Xanatos, Demona, Macbeth, the Pack, Thailog, and the Hunters. (Not to mention how a guy like Doyle who isn't even in office was able to break into the Eyrie Building when the far more powerful Oberon had troubles doing so; where did Doyle get his resources from, anyway?)

3. Demona is underused (the anti-gargoyle situation throughout the "Goliath Chronicles" would have been perfect for her to really come to the fore); just one episode. (For that matter, what would really have been great would be Demona telling Goliath that all of this trouble is his fault - "You had to save the humans by stopping me on the night of the Hunter's Moon and smashing the Praying Gargoyle. Now, because of you, they're hunting us down like animals and wiping us out! If you hadn't destroyed the Praying Gargoyle, none of this would be happening now!") And "Generations", if anything, actually confirms Demona's beliefs about humans, given that, in it all of the humans are not only anti-gargoyle, but treacherously so (the invisible guy betrays Demona, and the Quarrymen set up a fake mugging to trap the gargoyles), without even a hint of any pro-gargoyle humans like Elisa around. (A person who had seen "Generations" in a vacuum would be probably wondering why Goliath and Co. insist on protecting the humans and staying in the city in such a case).

4. No arcs or overall series development; the episodes keep everything in a status quo throughout.

5. The Illuminati are reduced to a mere set of wicked munitions manufacturers straight out of "Captain Planet".

6. Xanatos given a very improbable scheme in "Angels of the Night", duping the Quarrymen into believing that the gargoyles are dead so that they can move to another city and start over again. Did Xanatos really believe that Goliath would ever agree to it? Not to mention that I don't think that there'd be anywhere in the world that the gargoyles would be safe from the Quarrymen, except for Avalon.

(For that matter, I'm still amazed that the production team actually wanted to end the series with the gargoyles just giving up and running away - and grateful that Greg stopped them from doing that).

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, August 24, 2002 07:10:11 PM
IP: 65.57.62.114

AIRWALKER> <<(I really got to get to The Gathering this year so I can finally catch a glimpse of that liecca reel.)>>

Well, the Gathering is in New York City this year, and since you live in Brooklyn, you really have no excuse for not coming ;)

Greg Bishansky
Saturday, August 24, 2002 12:29:31 PM
IP: 216.179.3.104

DPH - You wrote: [Yea, but would you want Gargoyles coming back where stories like "City of Stone" or "Hunter's Moon" would not pass of the level of violence?]

That's one of the questions that I have about any possible revival - is it possible to even get the same type of show standards that we had from 1994-1997? My impression is that Disney has really tightened up S&P especially on anything they broadcast on regular, syndication and network TV. So I'm completely unsure as to how they would handle any revived series - would they be more understanding of the fact that it is a drama or would they try to enforce one standard across the board and thus possibly cripple the show?

I think that if they made the commitment to revive the series then they would at the very least give it some leeway although where and when it was broadcasting would probably have the most effect. Saturday morning is going to lead to some toning down although perhaps it won't be much more than the standards that TGC had.

(But I would prefer that this series or any of its spinoffs stay off Saturday Morning - its just not a show made for that time slot. It doesn't match the feel of that time period - in the late afternoon or evening or late at night the mood and audience for the series fits. But on Saturday morning? I think that was another thing that helped to cripple TGC. I think thought that if they were going to do a revival then cable would be the best place to do it. The standards on Cable as well as possible timeslot can be much more flexible.)

You wrote: [In all honesty, I don't want Gargoyles or its spinoffs coming back if villains and antiheroes get morals strapped to them because of the limits of violence in the series.]

This is why as much as I'd love to see the series (and/or its spinoffs) make it back to TV, I think that it would be more doable in some other format like comics/graphic novels or books or OVAs. TV has changed completely from the time that GARGOYLES premiered. There isn't any Disney Afternoon to work with. Syndication is a dying field. Most animated series on regular network TV have mainly shifted to Saturday Morning with the exception of the WB on the weekdays. CN has shown up and is completely reshaping how animation can be marketed as well as where animation can be marketed. Network S&P have tightened and shifted. Network shows have gotten dumber and dumber (there have definitely been some good series here and there since 1997 but they have been getting fewer and fewer as time goes by - just flipping through the channels today all I can see thats worth watching is Jackie Chan Adventures) and the few good possibilities are hard to find if they are even shown at all (Tarzan had a little hope but its on Sunday Morning on UPN which means it doesn't get seen much on the few times that they happen to show it). So I don't know how well any network syndicated revival would do.

I think that with a radical reorganization of TOON DISNEY or the prime time slots of the various Disney Channels that a series (and/or spinoff) revival could work; standards could be identical to what they were in the olden days of the mid 1990's there. I named OVAs previously because direct to video/DVD because they too have the potential of keeping at least something resembling the S&P the series knew.

Would I want to see a revived series if the S&P were knocked down to such a level that we couldn't get anything even near TGC levels? I think that it wouldn't be even be the same series if it didn't have some sort of S&P level that lets it remain a Drama; if they give it a Saturday Morning action series S&P level then the series wouldn't really be the series anymore; it would be transformed into something else.



TODD - You wrote: [I doubt that Greg Weisman will do rambles for any of the "Goliath Chronicles" episodes other than "The Journey". Aside from the fact that he'd find it too painful to watch them again, the big problem is that he didn't work on those last 12 stories, so he wouldn't be able to say as much.]

Didn't he give some input here and there at least in the very beginning when he was still part of the staff and working on THE JOURNEY?

But still I'd like to see what he has to say about those specific 12 episodes - ramblings don't just have to be comments on how he worked on the series but also what he thinks about the various ideas he recommended to the TGC staff and what he thinks about the outcome. (I'm interested in seeing what he thought of the Trial of Goliath as well A BRONX TAIL :-) ) Besides even if he is planning to just ignore those episodes if the series gets revived it would still help to have watched them more than one time to see exactly what was the damage done. This would be a good excuse for that.

You wrote: [A lot of the interest in the episode rambles that he's done lies in the "behind-the-scenes" information contained in them: how they came up with this idea or that - not to mention the "earlier drafts" for that idea such as the notion that originally Talon was going to be a scientist working for Xanatos rather than Elisa's brother, the Standards & Practices discussions, the continuity issues, and so on.]

We'd still get that if he did TGC ramblings. After all many of the core ideas did come from his suggestions and notes. Plus it does have an effect on continuity so it would be interesting to see some of his comments on what he sees wrong with it, how he might fix it, or that he's just going to ignore it in general for so and so reason.

You wrote: [I rather suspect that the new production team wanted to tone down the fantasy aspects of "Gargoyles" considerably to (more or less) just the gargoyles (even though they did wind up using Titania, Proteus, and Taurus as guest stars), and go back to a more "mundane" atmosphere]

I don't think that they were looking to get rid of the fantasy elements in general; Otherwise they wouldn't have bothered with some of the stories that they did do with Titania and with the New Olympians. I do think that given that they were working with an extremely limited time frame (we have to keep that in mind when we do talk about TGC) that they wanted to limit themselves to the main plot which was set out for them in THE JOURNEY - which happned to be the Human/Gargoyle relations angle.

You wrote: [I know that there are even a few "Gargoyles" fans out there who actually like the Goliath Chronicles precisely because they took a less fantastic route.]

I liked the World Tour but I was glad when they finally got back to NYC. The city was such an important part in the identity of the series that I was glad that they had finally returned to it. I actually wouldn't have minded some more fantasy elements though in TGC - Alex and his magic needed to be addressed for example and wasn't. They touched on it in FOR IT MAY COME TRUE in what Titania said to Goliath but that was it. GARGOYLES usually did have a balance between the fantasy and reality elements that was slightly lacking in TGC.

You wrote: [Actually, there's a fourth "Gargoyles" voice actor whom you forgot to mention (on the list of major ones as yet unaccounted for in the hypothetical "Gargoyles 2198" voice list): Ed Asner (aka Hudson).]

I knew I forgot someone! :-)

You wrote: [Of course, one could argue that it would run the risk of duplicating "Gargoyles" itself a little bit]

True. On the other hand the dynamic is completely different with THE NEW OLYMPIANS. They aren't a dying race that is clinging to the fringes of Human imagination because they have no choice; they are a powerful nation state that can stand equal in the Human world but has chosen not to. And they are able to easily assert themselves when they do reveal themselves. No New Olympian has to worry about the persecution by mobs of Humans if they walk the streets of Manhattan at night - to do so would cause a major diplomatic incident and could easily lead to a war.

In fact the way the series is structured we would be getting the entire bigotry angle twisted around - instead of dealing with Humans hating them and how they react to it like in GARGOYLES, the New Olympians has the situation where its dealing with its hatred of Humanity and how Humanity would have to react to that hate. After all New Olympus, if it revealed itself in the 1990's-2000's would be a world power instantaneously with a tremendous technological advantage. We could even be talking about a new Cold War in the Gargoyles Universe - it certainly would shake everything up completely.

(In fact is Human hatred of Gargoyles sustainable with the New Olympians wandering around? Wouldn't they offer some diplomatic aid to keep Humans from going too overboard in behavior; it could influence the government particularly in how it might behave towards the Quarrymen - the threat of a diplomatic showdown could be a major one. And how long could people go around saying Gargoyles are animals when you're entering into dealings with a Minotaur and other various mythological creatures? Remember in the Gargoyles Universe, Gargoyles are just yet another set of mythological creatures when all is said and done.)



JIMMY - You wrote: [And I think they worked pretty well, if only the World tour was about 4 episodes shorter, I don't think any of those alleged fans would be complimnting TGC in any way.]

The post World Tour episodes did have a pretty good balance between "reality" and fantasy. That would have continued into TGC if it had been done properly - we know about some of the various ideas that Greg had. THE JOURNEY followed by a magical adventure involving Alex followed by Timedancing by Brooklyn and so on does have some balance to it. The real problem is that they just went overboard on the entire Human/Gargoyle relations element and drove it into the ground in an X-Men sort of manner.

The real problem with the World Tour wasn't so much too much fantasy and too little reality; it had a pretty good balance too - the main problem was that it just tended to feel way too long; it didn't help that a long stretch of reruns popped up right in the middle of it. I think that with one or two more home based episodes ala KINGDOM and PENDRAGON it might have not felt as long as it did. In fact a properly done TGC would probably have balanced out the vastness of the World Tour; the real problem was that following that long jaunt out of NYC wasn't followed by enough episodes in NYC.



BLAISE - You wrote: [After two and a half weeks of being homeless, I've finally managed to land myself an apartment!!]

Congratulations!

You wrote: [I'd *love* it if TIMEDANCER got made.]

I'd actually like to see this series done too. (To be honest I'd like to see all the spinoff made except possibly for THE NEW OLYMPIANS - they just came off so unsympathetic in their "pilot" that I'd don't really have an interest in their adventures; though I will admit that they do have tons of interesting plots and possibilities to it.) It would be interesting to see how a 20th century adapted Gargoyle like Brooklyn would react to the past and future. In the future he might be more radical and "barbaric" than he might see himself as being - he might be very useful in strategy and in use of force, assuming that the future has been more peaceful and people/Gargoyles had been looking down on the concept and weren't as practiced warriors in it as he is. While in the past he'd be a person completely out of time, in complete shock against the values and ideas that he follows and accepted in the 20th century. I would really want to see his interaction with Katana and how her Samurai code would interact with his 20th century warrior code. Would he be shocked by ideas such as ritual suicide and such? Would he take such things in stride since he is originally a 10th century warrior to begin with? And how would he react to time travel in general? After all he was sort of time tossed to begin with since he was a 10th century Gargoyle in modern times - would he really react that much to being in different time periods that much? (I'd see him react a lot to the actual travel but once he settles down and starts to spend long periods in specific times would he be that upset about it? Or would he be more adaptable that we might think?) And how would he react to finding himself having become less of a 10th century warrior and more of a calmer less willing to kill 20th century Gargoyle who's now moving across time?

(Plus of course I'm just curious to see Brooklyn with a wife and with kids; I'd love to see how the main series would react to having a married couple and some kids around instead of all these single and dating people.)

You wrote: [But I see G2198 as the most likely, with BAD GUYS pretty much tied for it (I mean come on, it was just one step short of a green light already--they had a leica reel, for crying out loud...if they had a "writer's bible" for it, I'd love to puruse it).]

I could sort of agree with this although it might be more possible that despite how developed BAD GUYS was that PENDRAGON might have a better chance due to name recognition. Since both of them is set in modern times, PENDRAGON gets put ahead since he has the built in fan base to call upon while BAD GUYS would have to establish itself from scratch. (Still BAD GUYS would have a good chance to build an audience - its got an tremendous action adventure angle built into it and while it wouldn't be able to tackle the same plots it would have been a few years ago (those CITY OF STONE terrorists are out without some radical reinventing of them) it still has tons of potential. (Hell a PENDRAGON-BAD GUYS block could net a huge audience in that we'd get the possibly bigger due to Arthurian fandom PENDRAGON audience dragged into BAD GUYS; I'd love to see something like that. Although at this point G2198 is really the best bet since it can be sold as a completely new show that isn't tied in any way to the old series - a spinoff that is completely new and seperate and unrelated except for the fact that its got Gargoyles in it.)

And yeah I'd love to get my hands on a writers bible for BAD GUYS too. (I really got to get to The Gathering this year so I can finally catch a glimpse of that liecca reel.)

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Saturday, August 24, 2002 11:45:30 AM
IP: 12.88.89.49

Greg B]---"Oh and don't worry about not seeing the last twelve TGC episodes."I did see a few others. We got to MST "Seeing isn't believing," and "Justice for All"

Airwalker]---"But later on in the series I could see him show up if he figured out a way to rescue Alex or of some way to teach him while he's in suspended animation or if Alex got free." Good cause the Puck is a lotta fun.

Jimmy]---"But later on in the series I could see him show up if he figured out a way to rescue Alex or of some way to teach him while he's in suspended animation or if Alex got free. " No these were the people who reminded the teachers they forgot to hand out homework.

Blaise]---"Are you above the occasional pun?" Just the bad ones. "Actually, Spacebabie was right" I was right??? And I was just guessing, wondering , asking a question.. I haven't seen those two episodes you mentioned and I was right?

Spacebabie - [LadyAndromeda@smstars.zzn.com]
Orlando, Fl, U.S.A
Saturday, August 24, 2002 11:39:35 AM
IP: 65.57.81.227

****Strange, happy-sounding music fills the air. There is also a rythmic beat that seems to be coming from a corner of the Room. Eventually, the sound turns out to be Blaise's shoes, as he fades into view, happily dancing a jig.****
After two and a half weeks of being homeless, I've finally managed to land myself an apartment!! Granted it's a bachelor's pad (little bigger than a breadbox), but it comes with a refridgerator (sp?) and a hotplate. Now I just need to pick up the keys, get the electricity running, move-in, set up cable and Internet...I'm going to still be busy. Oh, well--at least I'll have a place to keep my stuff.

SPACEBABIE> [rubs face] Was that really necessary? Are you above the occasional pun?

WHO VOICED CASTAWAY/CANMORE IN TGC> Actually, Spacebabie was right--Alan Cumming voiced Castaway ONLY in THE JOURNEY. In FOR IT MAY COME TRUE and ANGELS IN THE NIGHT, Scott Cleverdon was the voice of Castaway. This is backed up by the credits for those episodes and the (now extinct) official site for TGC which specifically listed (and pictured) Cleverdon as Castaway.

SPINOFFS> I'd *love* it if TIMEDANCER got made. But I see G2198 as the most likely, with BAD GUYS pretty much tied for it (I mean come on, it was just one step short of a green light already--they had a leica reel, for crying out loud...if they had a "writer's bible" for it, I'd love to puruse it).

I know I want to say more...but my mind's fried right now, so I'll just come back later (whenever that may be). Until then, farewell. ****Blaise reaches down and pulls up some suitcases out of nowhere. He then heads off to get ready for the final stage of his move.****

Blaise
Saturday, August 24, 2002 03:06:30 AM
IP: 64.24.180.90

[I know that there are even a few "Gargoyles" fans out there who actually like the Goliath Chronicles precisely because they took a less fantastic route]

Really? Where?
I had long thought that these people were a hoax, like Bigfoot, or the Tooth-fairy.

Besides, gargoyles was starting to go on a more mundane story arc after the Gathering. Nothing overly fantastical really happened after that with episodes like "Turf." The fantastical elements were just thrown in every now and then to spice things up. And I think they worked pretty well, if only the World tour was about 4 episodes shorter, I don't think any of those alleged fans would be complimnting TGC in any way.

Jimmy
Friday, August 23, 2002 10:06:50 PM
IP: 172.161.111.250

I doubt that Greg Weisman will do rambles for any of the "Goliath Chronicles" episodes other than "The Journey". Aside from the fact that he'd find it too painful to watch them again, the big problem is that he didn't work on those last 12 stories, so he wouldn't be able to say as much. (A lot of the interest in the episode rambles that he's done lies in the "behind-the-scenes" information contained in them: how they came up with this idea or that - not to mention the "earlier drafts" for that idea such as the notion that originally Talon was going to be a scientist working for Xanatos rather than Elisa's brother, the Standards & Practices discussions, the continuity issues, and so on).

I rather suspect that the new production team wanted to tone down the fantasy aspects of "Gargoyles" considerably to (more or less) just the gargoyles (even though they did wind up using Titania, Proteus, and Taurus as guest stars), and go back to a more "mundane" atmosphere; hence the substitution of an ordinary crooked politician for the tricksters or Brooklyn helping a couple of runaway kids rather than re-encountering the Phoenix Gate. (I know that there are even a few "Gargoyles" fans out there who actually like the Goliath Chronicles precisely because they took a less fantastic route.)

AIRWALKER - Actually, there's a fourth "Gargoyles" voice actor whom you forgot to mention (on the list of major ones as yet unaccounted for in the hypothetical "Gargoyles 2198" voice list): Ed Asner (aka Hudson).

I agree with you about the New Olympians being the most isolated from "Gargoyles" - especially since the concept was originally dreamed up before the "Gargoyles" series ever got suggested at Disney, if I recall correctly. Of course, one could argue that it would run the risk of duplicating "Gargoyles" itself a little bit: an ancient race that once shared the world with humans, but met with persecution and prejudice from them, was forced to go into hiding, faded into legend, and then, in modern times, re-emerges to encounter humanity again and see if it can make peace with them - plus an interspecies romance among two of the leads (although the genders are switched in this case).

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Friday, August 23, 2002 08:12:59 PM
IP: 63.208.47.224

Yea, but would you want Gargoyles coming back where stories like "City of Stone" or "Hunter's Moon" would not pass of the level of violence?

In all honesty, I don't want Gargoyles or its spinoffs coming back if villains and antiheroes get morals strapped to them because of the limits of violence in the series.

DPH
AR, USA
Friday, August 23, 2002 08:09:27 PM
IP: 204.94.193.73

GREG BISHANSKY - You wrote: [Those episodes tend to be based off of notes and suggestions Greg gave the TGC crew.]

I know - my main point is that however much we bash and hate TGC, there are good ideas in there; its less the ideas that any of us has a problems with than the execution of those ideas.

You wrote: [He mentioned having an idea for another New Olympians episode once. But the TGC crew just ran another direction with it.]

And largely in that episode it wasn't the main idea that was problematic - there was nothing seriously wrong with it. But the execution in the episode was the problem - no motivation or explination of why Proteus is doing any of the things that he is doing, not even chalking it up to massive insanity on his part.

I did however think that some of the Goliath/Elisa scenes in that episode were carried off well except towards the end when it got really heavy handed. Proteus pretending to be Elisa was carried out well in my opinion; so was the earlier scene where Goliath and Elisa basically have a spat over her possible lack of trust in him and his word.

Overall there were more problems than good points but it wasn't as horrible as many of the other episodes (Must I mention A BRONX TAIL? :-) ) that TGC did. The voice actors really did well with what they were working with.

(I should say that I have a bit of a soft spot for SEEING ISN'T BELIEVING - I was a huge Roddy McDowell fan and this is basically one of his last pieces of vocal work before he died; the other one was a Mad Hatter scene in a Batman/Superman crossover episode. So I'm more likely to look a bit more kindly on it and give it a little more slack than the other TGC episodes.)

You wrote: [Of course the TGC crew turned it into a story about a corrupt politician.]

My understanding of the original idea was not so much that the various Fey kidnap Alex as much as they take him out for some training and that it wouldn't be a situation where Puck would be unavailable to deal with anything, rather that he knows about it. How they got a politician kidnapping Alex from that I still can't really figure.

But the political kidnapping isn't such a bad idea in itself no matter how far removed from the original better idea it was. It was something that could have really worked out and led to something interesting. But again the execution was terrible. And characterization had to bend over backwards in order to make chunks of it work well. What a waste.

You wrote: [And damn, they just had to ruin Fox in that episode. Makes me want to puke.]

Like I said, a huge waste.

You wrote: [RUNAWAYS was originally a story called TIMEDANCER. The only similarity was Brooklyn being pissed off.]

And again the underlying idea of Goliath/Brooklyn conflict that we had in the episode was a good and interesting idea. The problem with this is all in where they went with it - the execution was not well done at all to massively understate things.

(How can anyone take an idea like TIMEDANCER and somehow work it out to get something like RUNAWAYS? And on top of everything it swept all the conflict under the rug at the end of everything - why was the conflict between Goliath and Brooklyn so easily resolved? And why was it dumbed down so much as to simply be him daydreaming over a girl causing difficulties instead of a real difference of opinion? And why couldn't they have that difference of opinion come up again? That would have made later TGC episodes more interesting. How could the core of the interesting idea that this episode had (like most TGC episodes had) be perverted so badly through such poor execution of the idea?)

You wrote: [As soon as Greg leaves the room, Scott (or Eric) turns to Lydia and says "we're not doing that. We're not doing anymore time travel stories. I've got a better idea", and he gave her RUNAWAYS... the story formerly known as TIMEDANCER. It's pretty sad.]

I could understand not wanting to do more time travel stories; they were on Saturday morning and just that timeslot calls for not complicating the situation for the audience (i.e. dumbing things down) so having a complicated thing like Time Travel come up would be the first thing to go. But at the same time how the hell could they take a good idea like TIMEDANCER and get RUNAWAYS out of it?



JIMMY - You wrote: [Aren't Broadway and Angela supposed to have descendants? One of the voices could do the decendant, so it's down to only two.]

Broadway and Angela have three kids - Artus, Gwen, and Lancelot. Samson is either the son of Lancelot or the grandson of either Artus or Gwen which would mean that while its strongly possible that Lancelot might show up in G2198 that Artus and Gwen would be way too old. I suppose that some other descendents from one of Broadway and Angela's children could show up that they could voice but then the existing good Gargoyles cast could get too big too fast. I think that it might be more likely that they would get different roles in the series to keep as much of the old vocal cast as possible but not have them in a related to the hero role. The Space Spawn characters might need voices; or we could introduce a few other Humans to join the resistance - it does seem overly Gargoyle heavy; surely more than one or two Humans would join the resistance. (Or at the very end we could always just have another unrelated to Samson rookery siblings. Or we could adjust to the fact that it might not be possible to get every single member of the original voice cast into the G2198 spinoff.)

You wrote: [I didn't really like Tenchi Muyo, it seemed to me like a sitcom desperately trying to be a sci-fi show. And I just didn't like Sailor Moon. I preferred Ronin Warriors (I hear the Samurai troopers version was better though.)]

Tenchi was just that but I liked it anyway. I'm eagerly awaiting the 3rd OVA which they've finally put into production; only took 10 years. I like Sailor Moon for reasons I can't put into words. And Ronin Warriors was alright but I never liked it that much. (You can get both versions of it on DVD.)

You wrote: [How in any way does Hamtaro appeal to a male audience? I'm male, and I sure as hell feel no compunction whatsoever to watch it.]

I think that they are looking for a 7-13 year old male demographic for the show - if your not that age then your not the male demographic they want. TV tends to be very specific in what it wants :-)

(I personally thought that it was a bit cute although its not something I could watch long term - meaning more than a few minutes - before my eyes started to bleed from all the cute.)

You wrote: [But the comic books are pretty good. I've read Thundercats and GI-Joe, but I'm not aware of any He-Man comic.]

There isn't any He-Man comic although I wouldn't be suprised if they start working on one in a few months if the series does well on Toonami. As for the other two I don't really have a GI Joe interest and I've only flipped through Thundercats. Nostalgia got me to look at them but nostalgia isn't enough to get me to put down my money on it; I'll wait for a tradepaperback. :-)

You wrote: [God this show is awful.]

I second that; I had hopes that this show wouldn't be as bad as it sounded but all my friends who are into Gundam were right - its eyebleeding awful.

You wrote: [I still think Dark-Ages has the best chance of working since it has no real need for prior introduction.]

I still see prequelitis being a serious problem. I just can't accept that an open ended prequel could work; if it were highly focused on one idea (ala Star Wars Prequels) or tightly plotted down to some specific arcs in advance then it could work but open ended with the chance that it won't get through from 971-994?

I think that G2198 has the best chance - its far enough in the future that it doesn't even have to be close to the ideas and characters of the main series, its got sci-fi action to keep action fans happy and it doesn't need vast explinations either - Gargoyles in the Future!

PENDRAGON has the best chance after G2198 in that it has the King Arthur angle to attract an audience. THE NEW OLYMPIANS which is basically isolated and most seperate from the rest of the Gargoyles universe could also work since its isolation lets it portray itself as an entirely new universe and show rather than as a spinoff. (How many people who aren't GARGOYLES fans are going to remember The New Olympian "pilot" in the series?) BAD GUYS works after those two in that it takes place abroad and has a big action angle to play around with. TIMEDANCER works out as the least possible series since it starts and ends in the main series; with some framing sequence ala AWAKENINGS 1 you could get it to work and set Brooklyn off on his trip; and once you do that you have a perfectly working series but the problem is selling the idea of a single direct character spinoff from a cancelled series. (If it did make it however it could be a perfect springboard for a new GARGOYLES series - his return is the last episode of TIMEDANCER and the first episode of GARGOYLES 2.)



MATT - You wrote: [i agree with Jimmy, i think Dark Ages has the best chance for getting aired]

I don't think that DA has the best chance to get aired; if anything PENDRAGON would have a better chance in that it gives a character with instant name recognition and a huge existing fanbase a series. DARK AGES is in the end more GARGOYLES and if the person your pitching too doesn't want more Gargoyles (or doesn't think that adventures of Goliath as a kid is going to catch on) then it isn't going to sell well. The other spinoffs have the advantage of some independence from the main series.

Even TIMEDANCER and G2198 still have that independence.

G2198 has nothing to do with Goliath and company even though its their descendents and a few carryovers would show up; its basically a completely seperate show with a new-ish cast circling a completely different idea.

TIMEDANCER basically has nothing to do with Goliath and his tribulations in the present - we get a single character who basically starts off the series as a blank slate (yes he has a personality established in GARGOYLES but TIMEDANCER episode 1 only gives you basics - you don't get his past so he's almost like a new character) who is in a completely different environment with a different goal entirely. Its radically independent from the main series in that it can't touch the time of the main series without this series ending. And we don't know that its going to end where it started - it seems open ended; we only know it isn't because we've been told what the premise of the series is. Otherwise its a Gargoyle doing a sort of Quantum Leap :-)

Only DARK AGES is really directly tied to the main series in that it is about the exact same cast in the same castle and leading into what we already know is going to happen. TIMEDANCER might help let us in on some GARGOYLES history and secrets but we don't know exactly where its going or if it is going anywhere. DARK AGES is going to AWAKENINGS 1 no matter what.

You wrote: [would probably be the best series for new viewers and old viewers alike]

I think that outside of hardcore fans old viewers might either get bored or confused. And we might not get that many new viewers because people aren't that interested in medieval settings. King Arthur aside, how many series set in medieval times do that well?

You wrote: [all the other spinoffs could not live up to their potential because new viewers would be too confused if they did.]

If done well I don't think that any of them would confuse other than DARK AGES. (And I don't even think DA would confuse that much - the only people who might get lost might be casual viewers of the main series who might flip this on and wonder why the hell everything is twisted around and in flashback mode and where is NYC and Elisa?)

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Friday, August 23, 2002 07:32:26 PM
IP: 12.88.84.181

Garg Spinoffs> i agree with Jimmy, i think Dark Ages has the best chance for getting aired and would probably be the best series for new viewers and old viewers alike. all the other spinoffs could not live up to their potential because new viewers would be too confused if they did. Dark Ages would rarely take elements from the original series cuz its in the past, not the future. only once in awhile would we see something that happened in Gargoyles or so after such as Brook's timedanceing...
matt
Friday, August 23, 2002 05:40:29 PM
IP: 216.178.8.102

[In fact this list leaves only three major voices out of the running - Tom Wilson (aka Matt Bluestone), Brigitte Bako (aka Angela), and Bill Fagerbakke (aka Broadway)]

Aren't Broadway and Angela supposed to have descendants? One of the voices could do the decendant, so it's down to only two.

[I have mixed feelings about Toonami myself.. .]

I didn't really like Tenchi Muyo, it seemed to me like a sitcom desperately trying to be a sci-fi show. And I just didn't like Sailor Moon. I preferred Ronin Warriors (I hear the Samurai troopers version was better though.) But the show just had one or two seasons and then stopped. It had such potential for further stories, but it was replaced by Sailor Moon (damn those Sailor Scouts). I enjoyed Outlaw Star though, and Cowboy Bebop wasn't bad, even though when i first heard the title it sounded like some sort of pornographic stuff (I had no idea it was an anime. I just saw a video on some kid's desk at school labelled "Cowboy Bebop" with something referring to women in the title. I don't remember what though)

[Hamtaro which CN wants a huge male audience]

How in any way does Hamtaro appeal to a male audience? I'm male, and I sure as hell feel no compunction whatsoever to watch it.

[Transformers, GIJoe, HeMan - they were such kid/pop phenomenons, that Gargoyles never equated. Their appeal now is one of nostalgia]

They're nostalgic, but whenever i saw an episode of Thundercats and I hear Lion-O go "Thunder, thunder, thunder. . ." It brings a smile to my face. Same goes for He-Man going: "By the power of Grayskull." God I wish I got to see that movie. But the comic books are pretty good. I've read Thundercats and GI-Joe, but I'm not aware of any He-Man comic. (I was a He-Man fanatic. We didn't get "Thundercats" in India.) The comic books are actually quite cool. The latest GI-Joe was action packed. It was sweet. Stormshadow vs Snakeeyes. Awesome stuff.

G-Gundam> God this show is awful. I saw one episode, never again, never again. . . The voice acting is just soo bad. The plotlines are soo cheezy, the story is so flimsy, the animation, so crappy. How oculd such a show possibly be shown. Gundam Wing may have shamelessly copied from others, but at least it was well executed. I enjoyed Gundam Wing immensely during the first season. Everything was so cool. The characters were soo awesome. Once the show moved into outer space it got a little weaker, they kept beating this concept of pacifism into the ground. Good concept, but we got the point after the hundredth time they mantioned it. There really wasn't any subtlety in the point they were trying to make. But all in all, Gundam Wing: very good. G-Gundam: &%&&* *^ %#$%( *#$* $%@%$#!!!

Garg Spinoffs> I still think Dark-Ages has the best chance of working since it has no real need for prior introduction. Just, "One thousand years ago, superstition and the sword ruled. It was a time of Darkness, it was a world of fear. IT WAS THE AGE OF GARGOYLES!" All the intro you need.

Jimmy
Friday, August 23, 2002 04:34:01 PM
IP: 152.163.197.137

AIRWALKER> <<They are bad but some of them do have the seeds of some good ideas in them.>>

Those episodes tend to be based off of notes and suggestions Greg gave the TGC crew. He mentioned having an idea for another New Olympians episode once. But the TGC crew just ran another direction with it.

<<And even the horrible episodes (RUNAWAYS, RANSOM, pretty much everything of those 12 episodes) still have some good ideas>>

RANSOM was based on Greg's notes for a story where Raven kidnaps Alex, and Lex and Puck team-up with Anansi and Coyote the Trickster to rescue him. Of course the TGC crew turned it into a story about a corrupt politician. And damn, they just had to ruin Fox in that episode. Makes me want to puke.

RUNAWAYS was originally a story called TIMEDANCER. The only similarity was Brooklyn being pissed off. Lydia Marano told an interesting story about this at G2001. She was still writing for the series, and Greg was making suggestions to the crew, and he suggested TIMEDANCER, gave them a nice description of it, and either Scott Thomas or Eric Lewald (I forget who, I'm leaning towards Scott) liked the story, and Lydia was ready to write the script since she wrote the previous time-travel stories. As soon as Greg leaves the room, Scott (or Eric) turns to Lydia and says "we're not doing that. We're not doing anymore time travel stories. I've got a better idea", and he gave her RUNAWAYS... the story formerly known as TIMEDANCER. It's pretty sad.

Greg Bishansky
Friday, August 23, 2002 03:34:41 PM
IP: 216.179.3.104

TODD - You wrote: [I agree with you about how "Gargoyles 2198" could indeed be using most of the original voice cast;]

You know, I'm pretty sure that we could probably use almost all of the original series voice cast in G2198. After all it would be such a shame to leave anyone out. :-) Let's see who else could make it to that time/be worked in somehow:

- Macbeth
- Matrix (Won't show up much but is still there; could even have Dingo's voice at this point as a possibility.)
- Oberon and the various Fey
- Taurus having a descendent is a good possibility.
- The Coldtrio could make it to the far future. (We do know that after all that bitterness Coldstone goes through, he and Coldfire do eventually rejoin the Clan and get a measure of peace. And assuming that they don't get destroyed (and they don't seem like the type to commit suicide) it would be a good bet for them to still be around in the future.)
- Fox is a possibility since she is after all a Halfling. (And while Xanatos most probably won't get immortality since it not getting it plays better with his character, it doesn't mean that he can't make it to the future - he could have gone to Avalon; or he could have tried cryogenic sleep; or his ghost could still be wandering around.)


There are also other characters who are much less likely to make it to the future but who could possibly do so. For example:

- Sevarius could stumble across something that would allow him to get some sort of pseudo-immortality. Or he could find a way to keep his mind and personality going after his death. Or we could always have some sort of experiment he was working on continue onward into the future and continue his work (and sound a lot like him :-) ) - sort of like Cell in DBZ except more intelligent and a better personality. :-)

- Thailog could find the sort of immortality that Xanatos might never be able to get; he is after all an improvement on his "father" :-) Besides Greg did mention somewhere that "Thailog survived. The Thailog's of the world always survive"; when he said this it was in reference to the end of THE RECKONING. But it could also be used as a general reference to Thailog in general - after all he still had access to Sevarius even after THE RECKONING. (Besides not only is Thailog such an interesting character that I'd like to see him make it to the future but I still want him to continue with his main existencial purpose - Giving Keith David a chance to use an evil voice :-) )

- Some of the various members of the Pack could either still be around or their future replacements could really sound like them :-) (I think that it would be a strong possibility that at the very least Hyena or Jackal would still be around - if they keep upgrading then eventually they'd become machinelike enough that they could be practically immortal.

In fact having Hyena evolve herself over time into being almost as robotic as Cyoti could work out as an interesting angle. Xanatos has Fox; and Cyoti becoming sentient might actually take an interest in Hyena - and he might want if not an equal then at least a companion. If he set his sight on Hyena then she could still be around in some form in the future.) And if Hakon could have Wolf as a descendent then its a good possibility that Wolf could have a descendent of his own to work with. The G2198 proposal Greg gave us does mention that Cyoti has tons of operatives after all.

- Dracon probably will have some sort of descendent; it might be an interesting twist to have him show up as a cop :-) although its a good bet that any Dracon 2198 is probably going to be in the same line of work as Dracon 1994.

- Cu Cullian is probably reincarnated into someone else. Again. :-)

- If the Golem is still around then a Loew descendent is probably still keeping track of him. Again. :-)

- Arthur Pendragon might still be around. He was awakened early after all; when he's done with his adventures in PENDRAGON he might have to make a decision to go back to sleep to wait for those times when he would really be needed. Its possible that he could be sleeping on Avalon again in 2198, waiting for a wakeup call. (And of course Merlin would probably still be around somewhere.)

- You know that Vinnie's descendents are still getting thrown into trouble through the cosmic karma they have :-)


In fact this list leaves only three major voices out of the running - Tom Wilson (aka Matt Bluestone), Brigitte Bako (aka Angela), and Bill Fagerbakke (aka Broadway). I could see a Bluestone descendent showing up as an Illuminati operative (that would make an interesting ironic twist) but I'm not sure how the other two could be worked into the series outside of them voicing some new characters. All the various descendent roles are taken or don't fit at this time (I don't think that Artus or Gwen will show up in G2198 so the most likely characters for those two to voice wouldn't be there).

You wrote: [Frakes would most likely also do Alexander's voice, but we obviously won't be seeing much of Alex in "Gargoyles 2198".]

I went over the Illuminati section in the G2198 document and it does mention that eventually they would make a deal with the Space Spawn to get people that they would vouch for out of stasis. That makes me wonder if Alex is going to be on ice for most of the series or just for the first season and a half or so. The way its written, it doesn't look like the Illuminati make an immediate deal with the Spawn, only that it comes up later in the series and becomes a headache for the resistance. So that could mean that Alex (who I'm willing to bet will probably end up in the Illuminati thanks to his father's membership) might have a chance to show up and play a serious role in the series. (Also gives Puck a good opportunity to get out and stretch his wings once in a while too.) It would be curious to have to see the price that Alex would have to pay for such freedom.



ALLAINE - You wrote: [I have mixed feelings about Toonami myself. Their anime selections lean towards "Huge Robots" and "Constant Martial-Arts Fights", which is probably my two least favorite kinds of anime]

Toonami in general is about action shows; it only became anime centered because those happened to be the more popular action shows that they picked up. But otherwise that's all they were ever really meant to be into. That's why Powerpuff Girls can fit so easily into the lineup as a lead-in to Dragonball.

They have started to branch into other stuff though - Hamtaro sure isn't what I'd call an action show. And they are planning to get their hands on Escaflowne the series once Fox's hold on the series expires. (Same thing with Slayers or so I've heard.)

You wrote: [In fact, this tends to squeeze out the better ones they've aired, like "Tenchi Muyo", "Outlaw Star", and "Sailor Moon". The only thing I watch now is "Cowboy Bebop"]

Sailor Moon went off the air again because it was too popular. Yes that makes no sense; listen to the logic - because the show was on at 3:30 it was drawing in a huge female audience but following it is Hamtaro which CN wants a huge male audience for. So in order to get Hamtaro to have a bigger male audience they took off Sailor Moon so that the female audience wouldn't be drawn into Hamtaro. Again it makes little sense but thats the official explination that was given on the SOS page. (Sad thing is that the strategy worked with Hamtaro getting a huge male audience for itself. I wouldn't worry though - Sailor Moon tends to return to TV after a while; you can't really ever get rid of it. Besides soon the subtitled versions of SM Season 1 and 2 will be out so why worry about the CN version of the series?)

Tenchi and Outlaw Star had good runs and they'll probably make it back to the air eventually also but the honest truth is that they served their purpose - they brought in an audience that is now being treated to all the new material that CN managed to get. The problem isn't the shows that they have but the lack of time to really show them all - Toonami needs to start an hour earlier and end an hour later. :-)

You wrote: [Transformers, GIJoe, HeMan - they were such kid/pop phenomenons, that Gargoyles never equated. Their appeal now is one of nostalgia]

True. But they are getting worked into shows that do have some appeal to an audience outside of nostalgia. BEAST WARS/MACHINES was like that. And some of the Japanese Transformer series being brought over do have some sort of a serious plotline that will hopefully make it through the dubbing process.

You wrote: [Considering the kick lately for cartoons appealing to adults, Gargoyles just seems like a natural choice - one of those rare series that was more successful with adults, without necessarily trying to be.]

True. Thats one of the reasons to be hopefull about an eventual revival for it.

Still though some part of me keeps saying that another format is needed to continue the story in - animation for adults (that isn't Hentai :-) ) is light years ahead of where it was in the early 90's but is still in its infancy.

Unless we manage to get some sort of cable movement done that will have shows like GARGOYLES in prime time or at least in a time when everyone (adult and child) can really sit down and watch it then its doomed to have to compete forever with some of the crap we still see being made on TV for kids. In a case like that Books and Comics (and eventually OVA's) might just be a better bet for it.

(Disney could really be the company to sustain an OVA market here - it has the material and does tons of OVAs already. If anyone could do it then it would be them. And I think that GARGOYLES (and spinoff) OVAs could do well together with a series of novels and/or a comic series.)

You wrote: [BlackArachnia is still one of my alltime favorite cartoon characters]

Mine too. It was her romance with Silverbolt that really got me into the entire BEAST WARS/MACHINES series. (The lack of dealing with this in the second season of BM is what really upset me about that series. I really hope that Mainframe gets a chance to do some sort of spinoff of that continuity that would allow us to get another glimpse at the two of them and their relationship.)



WARRIORESS - You wrote: [That's how I feel about Thundercats. I was RABID about that show as a kid, and I was quite literally in tears when I heard it was going off the air.]

I loved THUNDERCATS too and I also went back and watched it on CN. I always thought that it was a pretty funny show back then but watching it now, it was hillarious! And then sitting down and getting to see SILVERHAWKS together with it left my sides splitting. Never watch these shows with a group of people who are big on MST3K. You won't be able to breathe :-)

You wrote: [It was a good idea for a show, but it was ruined by bad writing and even worse voiceacting.]

The Tirga on drugs episode was the best though. (And in defense of the comic, they seem to be playing it seriously, going with the good idea bit and moving away from the camp level of the actual TV series.)



SPACEBABIE - You wrote: [Will there be the Puck? ((Of course Brent Spiner will voice him)) but will he be there?]

In the beginning Puck isn't slated to show up since Owen can't transform due to Alex being kidnapped. But later on in the series I could see him show up if he figured out a way to rescue Alex or of some way to teach him while he's in suspended animation or if Alex got free.



GREG BISHANSKY - You wrote: [Oh and don't worry about not seeing the last twelve TGC episodes. It's safe to say that if every copy, negative, taped copy out there etc, fell off a pier somewhere, no one would miss them. They are bad.]

They are bad but some of them do have the seeds of some good ideas in them. SEEING ISN'T BELIEVING and the DYING OF THE LIGHT stand out as good examples. Proteus running around loose in Manhattan and trying to play Goliath and Elisa off of each other is pretty good. (And his Elisa behavior in the episode was well done :-) ) And Robbins figuring out that Hudson is a Gargoyle is another good idea to run with.

And even the horrible episodes (RUNAWAYS, RANSOM, pretty much everything of those 12 episodes) still have some good ideas - Brooklyn being alienated from the Clan and conflicting with Goliath, Lexington being an uncle to Alex, an Alexander kidnapping scenario, etc, all of them had tremendous potential. Its was just the real lack of vision and direction to them, together with how they got run into the ground that makes the episodes horrible. (The bad animation doesn't help things out either.)

The only way you could get me to sit through the episodes now is if I were asked to look for mistakes and continuity glitchs to hand off in a list to Greg. Otherwise I don't really want to know about anything TGC after THE JOURNEY.

(And while THE JOURNEY is good if the opportunity comes up some second takes should be done to put some scenes back in the original order Greg intended them to be in - meaning get rid of the flying off into the night ending which just doesn't make sense given that he spent the whole episode saying he couldn't use his wing and put back the Nightwatch segments as the framing sequence. And if possible some reanimation of the episode would be nice too although thats much more of a long shot.)

(Still I do hope that Greg may do some sort of comment/rambling on TGC - I'm curious as to what he might think of the individual episodes. I wonder if he'd start crying after seeing them :-) )



SCOTT CLEVERDON OR ALAN CUMMING - If possible I'd probably go with Scott Cleverdon. Not that Alan Cumming did a bad job - he did pretty well with what he had to work with and did manage to bring something to the character particularly in ANGELS IN THE NIGHT. But first I'd rather distance as much as possible from TGC and second I'd prefer to be able to go with the original voice when possible. (In fact it would be nice to go back and redub Magot Yales dialogue in THE JOURNEY if possible.)

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Friday, August 23, 2002 02:57:07 PM
IP: 12.88.94.240

SPACEBABIE> Alan Cumming voiced John Castaway in all the TGC episodes. From what I remember he did a good job (of course I only sat through those episodes once, though recently I saw another one for a second time... the horror, the horror. Blame Mara ;)). I honestly don't know who I'd prefer hearing for the voice were the show to come back, or we got one of the spin-offs. Whenever I think of Jon Canmore I hear Scott's voice, for Castaway I hear Alan's voice.

Oh and don't worry about not seeing the last twelve TGC episodes. It's safe to say that if every copy, negative, taped copy out there etc, fell off a pier somewhere, no one would miss them. They are bad.

As for Puck. I doubt we'd see him in the series until at least Alex has been rescued from the Space-Spawn. No Alex means no loop-hole for Owen to change into Puck.

Greg Bishansky
Friday, August 23, 2002 02:04:09 PM
IP: 216.179.3.104

I surivived my first week of classes. I think for my non fiction class I'll write something about the Gathering 2002.

Shan]---"Unless by some odd coincidence you also went to school in the Cheney, Washington, school distric" No I went to the schools in the Orange County Florida.

Blaise]---"Boy is my face red... " :::Pun-dar is activated…Pulls out Smackers::: Sorry dude but that was a bad pun. :::Baps him:::

Ask Greg]---How come nobody posted that he answered another question two days ago??? Usually Todd or Matt, or Aaron keeps us updated.

2198]---Voices. Todd I can pretty much see them providing the voices of those characters, but what about the others. Will there be the Puck? ((Of course Brent Spiner will voice him)) but will he be there?

Greg B]---"Scott voiced Jon Canmore in "Hunter's Moon", and was unavailable to voice John Castaway, so Alan took over)." I think that was only in The Journey that Alan Cumming took over. Of course I haven't seen all of TGC so I'm not really sure.

Spacebabie - [LadyAndromeda@smstars.zzn.com]
Orlando, Florida, U.S.A
Friday, August 23, 2002 01:48:13 PM
IP: 67.25.48.183

TODD> Since the Castaway family is still in charge of the Quarrymen, I think it's safe to say that Scott Cleverdon or Alan Cumming would voice one of the prominent Castaways at least (Scott voiced Jon Canmore in "Hunter's Moon", and was unavailable to voice John Castaway, so Alan took over).

And I wouldn't be surprised to hear Jim Cummings or Sheena Easton voicing any Monmouth descendents.

Greg Bishansky
Friday, August 23, 2002 01:00:17 PM
IP: 216.179.3.104

" Their appeal now is one of nostalgia, however ("boy, I remember when I loved that show!"),"

That's how I feel about Thundercats. I was RABID about that show as a kid, and I was quite literally in tears when I heard it was going off the air.

Then a year or so ago I watched the whole series again through reruns on Cartoon Network, and while it has a few good eps, for the most part I was sitting there going "What was I *thinking*?!" (and "Was there ever an episode that *didn't* have Lion-O as a prominent character?!")

It was a good idea for a show, but it was ruined by bad writing and even worse voiceacting.

Still, I'm tempted to look into the new comic book...

warrioress
Friday, August 23, 2002 11:48:38 AM
IP: 64.219.130.157

G2198 > I'm pretty sure it was the reliable Hector Elizondo who did Zafiro's voice.

Toonami > I have mixed feelings about Toonami myself. Their anime selections lean towards "Huge Robots" and "Constant Martial-Arts Fights", which is probably my two least favorite kinds of anime ("Big O" being an exception). In fact, this tends to squeeze out the better ones they've aired, like "Tenchi Muyo", "Outlaw Star", and "Sailor Moon". The only thing I watch now is "Cowboy Bebop" (Pierrot Le Fou tomorrow night - oooh boy, is that one disturbing and creepy!).

On the other hand, it does set a precedent and leaves me hopeful that it will later introduce me to other great series (if I could see one OVA on Toonami, I'd pick "Slayers" personally).

80s cartoons > Transformers, GIJoe, HeMan - they were such kid/pop phenomenons, that Gargoyles never equated. Their appeal now is one of nostalgia, however ("boy, I remember when I loved that show!"), whereas Gargoyles continues because we still love watching the episodes for their quality ("boy, I still love that show!"). Considering the kick lately for cartoons appealing to adults, Gargoyles just seems like a natural choice - one of those rare series that was more successful with adults, without necessarily trying to be. If Beast Wars/Machines succeeded (BlackArachnia is still one of my alltime favorite cartoon characters), then so should Gargoyles, IMO.

MC (Golem) > Really, MC? Personally, I always _hated_ Turf. I thought it was one of the weakest ones - Brode v. Dracon, ho-hum. Whereas Golem was one of those episodes where I learned something (and had fun doing it).

Sincerely, Allaine

Allaine - [eac2nd@yahoo.com]
Philadelphia, PA
Friday, August 23, 2002 11:13:07 AM
IP: 64.12.96.138

"plus whoever did Nokkar's voice (James Avery, I believe)"

You got the "Avery" part right. It was Avery Brooks.

warrioress
Friday, August 23, 2002 09:41:57 AM
IP: 64.219.129.108

AIRWALKER - I agree with you about how "Gargoyles 2198" could indeed be using most of the original voice cast; given the fact that it's the spin-off that we know the most about (and are likely to know the most about for a good long time, given the fact that I seriously doubt that Greg's going to post any similar documents about the other spin-offs in light of how the Gargoyles 2198 contest went - I LOL when I read his "Never again" comment), it's the one where I could do the most speculation over the voice actors.

Obviously, Jeff Bennett would do the voices of Brooklyn and Owen, and Marina Sirtis the voice of Demona, plus whoever did Nokkar's voice (James Avery, I believe) would reprise his role. As for the new characters, here's who'd be the most probable voices for them (based, in particular, on using the old voice talent):

SAMSON: Keith David
DELILAH: Salli Richardson
ZAFIRO: Whoever did the voice of the original Zafiro in "The Green"
NICK NATSILANE MAZA: Whoever did the voice of the original Natsilane in "Heritage"
THE LXMS: Thom Adcox-Hernandez.
FU-DOG: Frank Welker.
COYOTE-X: Jonathan Frakes.

(Frakes would most likely also do Alexander's voice, but we obviously won't be seeing much of Alex in "Gargoyles 2198". Since we don't have any information as yet on individual members of the Space-Spawn, Illuminati, or Quarrymen in the spin-off, I've left them off the list).

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Friday, August 23, 2002 07:16:17 AM
IP: 65.56.174.126

AARON - You wrote: [So Disney now has a piece of the TF pie.]

Why does this not suprise me? :-) Honestly it was sort of inevitable that something like this would happen; Disney is old, established, and HUGE - its going to get its hands into everything after a while.

My one hope is that moves like this transform Disney rather than Disney transforming them. If getting their hands on stuff like TRANSFORMERS and all the various Miyazaki Movies could influence them to start to really diversify, to at the very least keep a division on someone above the age of 12 as a market with potential to be tapped then it would be worth it; I would really love to see Disney start to shift some resources in that direction - they have the power to do so and the potential to do so. Its almost a crying shame to see all the potential in TOON DISNEY and its prime time hours go to waste; syndicated Network TV may be slowly dying off but they still have new markets and channels to tap - if only they'd seize the opportunity. Disney shouldn't have to wait for the next generation to grow up and then take power of the company before things start to move.

You wrote: [So, presuming it doesn't get Atlantised, there will be an L&S series.]

I could see it getting done but I didn't really think that it would get done. But then again I'm not really suprised; usually they do end up either doing an OVA sequel to their movies or a TV series sequel to them. I hope that it works out well; the last good Disney comedy TV series I've seen was probably HERCULES (although I'm sure that there was something else in between that's probably slipping my mind; still it was a good series and a clear improvement over the Movie) and that was a while back.



WINGLESS - You wrote: [That would explain why ABC and Family Channel Canada are picking up Power Rangers this fall. How disgusting. How little respect they give Gargoyles and yet Power rangers still live.]

I still can't even come close to comprehending how Power Rangers could still be on the air in any form. What could be so interesting about it that is giving it such a staying power? It can't just be the violence; I enjoy violent action series as much as anyone else and couldn't sit through an episode of any Power Rangers series even when it started showing way back in 1994.

As for Disney getting it and putting it on the air, I can't really say I blame them - they are a business after all; money is the bottom line. If they can squeeze some cash out of the tail end of Power Rangers (Please God, let it be nearing the end!) then more power to them. Actually it might work out well in our favor. Consider that Power Rangers would really be the only major source of competition for GARGOYLES or any GARGOYLES spinoff series.

(To be honest there isn't really that much else on TV anymore to compete with it - Pokemon and Digimon are a different demographic than the audience Disney wanted for GARGOYLES (i.e. too young). Everything else that could possibly even out with it is on cable and in the evening.)

With Power Rangers in Disney's pocket, they've basically eliminated major competition for any of their series. In fact outside of a few WB shows, its mainly Disney or Anime on TV anymore. If they want to schedule a new series like GARGOYLES they don't have to put it in competition with Power Rangers but instead have Power Rangers in the Half Hour/Hour before it as a lead in to it. Its a good move on Disney's part.

(Although personally if I was one of the higher ups at Disney, I'd really start thinking cable and how to either revamp Toon Disney slightly or how to get an entirely new channel for animated programming going. They could easily redo their 7-Midnight hours on TOON DISNEY (or on the main Disney Channel) to compete with CN by introducing some original or revived programming. Given that synidication is almost in the grave, it wouldn't be a bad idea.)

You wrote: [Anyway, I'm glad for the DVD upcoming release. We can only hope we get all the eps-and unedited...I repeat UNEDITED!]

I don't think that this will be such a big problem - Disney does have a good history of putting out quality DVDs. I don't think that they've ever released any of their series in any format in their entirety but from what they have released, they have done well. GARGOYLES on VHS was unedited like all the other series they released.

What I wonder about is if they'll release any of the series past the first season. I'm sure that they'll release everything that they've released on VHS so that their catalog will be DVD converted but I don't know about the second season. Disney never really has released any of their series completely - GARGOYLES would have to sell very well for the entire second season to be released. (But if it is released then I don't think that it will be edited; most of the edits are mainly for TOON DISNEY standards and I don't think that would carry over to any DVD release.)



TODD - You wrote: [Good points on which spin-offs would work best for Disney nowadays.]

I'm not saying though that GARGOYLES couldn't still be revived and done by Disney; its just that it would be more difficult to do and probably would have tighter S&P standards than what some of the other spin-offs might have to deal with. It would also depend on where the series was being revived. If we are talking about a cable run of some sort then it would have an easier time than it would on whats left of syndication.

And the other two spinoffs that I mentioned as possibly having problems getting on the air now (BAD GUYS and TIMEDANCER) don't have THAT many problems. BAD GUYS is more about how its presented than anything else. I managed to put it in a slightly negative light but that was just to make my point - it could easily be sold in a positive light. Although unless it was being done for cable (and even then) I doubt we'd get anything coming close to dealing with issues like those terrorists from CITY OF STONE 1 (unless they were suddenly morphed into mercenaries of some sort). Some issues are just going to be impossible to touch in TV format. (If BAD GUYS got a comic it might have a slightly easier time although probably not too much.) TIMEDANCER would suffer from momentum loss like I said but it could be overcome. If the first few episodes were a multi-parter on the level of AWAKENINGS then we could have a similier dynamic with the first few episodes reestablishing GARGOYLES and its situations (sort of how AWAKENINGS 1 established Goliath and Clan's position in Wyvern before the tragedy) and then launching Brooklyn into his timedancing adventures. (As for well know GARGOYLES characters and his relationship to them that couldn't be easily explained in a prologue sort of beginning (i.e. Demona) we could always use flashback.) TIMEDANCER could work in that it would have a solid cast and a variety of environments to deal with. Plus it could deal with everything from realistic issues to magic and aliens.

You wrote: [Griff would be another story, of course, as would the whole business of how Arthur returned to the modern world.]

We could always start off with them already travelling and then telling their story in flashback as they start to gain other knights in their journey. (And its possible that this series could really work with a sort of opening speech ala GARGOYLES S2 Goliath opening speech; it would add flavor to the series and it would help bring new viewers up to speed quickly on the main plot.) Still even with this problem, its not difficult to solve and it wouldn't be such a great obsticle - not as big a one as starting TIMEDANCER in medias res would be. In fact it would be an interesting "mystery" to start the series off with - leave the audience as questioning about it as the people that he would encounter in the opening episode.

You wrote: [It's a sad commentary on animation that "King Arthur and the Knights of Justice" got two whole seasons, while "Pendragon" never even got made.]

Please don't remind me.

I still think that PENDRAGON has a good chance to be made; its up there with G2198 and BAD GUYS as the best chance spinoffs. BAD GUYS if sold right gives us that military, assault team (which like I said before could be ala GI JOE) and might hit it off well nowadays. G2198 has the future setting to draw the crowd and simplify problems dealing with being set in NYC. And PENDRAGON like you said has the King Arthur angle to it which would draw in all those fans to it although given that it would be firmly set in the present (since we're trying to avoid the darker parts of the Arthurian legend for children's TV after all) some King Arthur fans might be disappointed by the absence of the medieval setting. Still its hopefull that Arthur would be enough of a draw and that the remenance of his medieval legacy in the modern world as well as his new adventures would keep them watching.



MR X - You wrote: [Personally I quite like the idea of Pendragon. To be honest, it's really the only possible Gargoyles spin-off that would work, without the original programme airing, as Disney's intention would to create a new market, and mainly target those who the same age we were when we watched Gargoyles back in the mid '90s.]

PENDRAGON does have a very good chance in that it has the King Arthur angle to draw upon. Its also helped by the fact that King Arthur in the modern world is a topic that tends to draw attention and audience. But there are other spinoffs that have just as good if not better possibilities for creating a new market.

G2198 has the best chance of all of them - it can draw on the original series but has the option of being completely fresh and differently oriented. It can have an equal level of magic and even more sci fi to draw in both types of audience. And its set far enough in the future that they can't really upset anyone when they start to do major damage to real cities (like NYC). Best of all you could recycle most of the original vocal cast into this series - the most powerful thing about GARGOYLES was the vocal cast; and this series would benefit most of all from that. (PENDRAGON can only come in second to this spinoff too; the truth is that sci-fi usually has a better chance than anything medieval oriented.)

THE NEW OLYMPIANS has a good chance to get on TV too in that it has the Beauty and the Beast/Romeo and Juliet angle to play with in addition to an extremely visual cast but I think that the political angle could get too complicated for kids TV. It could be done but then again I wonder if people want to see a show about a hostile and heavily armed group that hates the entire world and all it believes in while at the same time demanding recognition. (That sounds as negative as how I put BAD GUYS in my last post - but that is how an executive could see it; I suppose if the action adventure and romance angles are played more instead of the political angle then the show could function well. But I'm not anxious to see any NEW OLYMPIAN series - they didn't exactly win a lot of sympathy from me in their "pilot" episode in GARGOYLES.)

DARK AGES has the same thing going for and against it that PENDRAGON has - the medieval flavor of the series. But I don't think that a prequel could do well without at least having the main series playing at the same time or without being limited and highly focused in scope. An open ended prequel doesn't strike me as something that can work well.

I suggested above how TIMEDANCER can be made to work; and it could be done in that it would be centralized and dealing with one or two major characters; that in itself makes it appealing in that it doesn't overcomplicate things and makes it easy for the audience to jump into the show at any point without having to become aquainted with a vast number of characters. They would only have to know Brooklyn and Katana and how the two of them interact and see the world as they travel. The main problem here is in getting Brooklyn travelling. His getting back could open up the opportunity of restarting the series - he returns ending TIMEDANCER and restarting GARGOYLES.

BAD GUYS would have the same PENDRAGON problem - it has to start in medias res since time has passed since the main series has been off the air and these characters have had to have been doing something in all that time. Otherwise the only problem that BAD GUYS would have is in how the show represents them (can't show them to be terroristic/mercenary-ish; it would have to be emphasised more that they weren't good but weren't evil and that they are being blackmailed so that its understood that they are sort of the good guys here) and in what plots it can deal with (Illuminati fighting is good but the means in which they fight have to be restrained - Robyn can't blow up any more buildings for example; and of course other opponents have to be presented differently - those CITY OF STONE terrorists would probably have to presented differently if shown at all).



JIM R - YOu wrote: [About the only half-decent show on Toonami is DBZ, but DBZ is overstayed its welcome far too long and I don't even care for it either. And now G-Gundam...(sigh)...it's such a shame, that series is a disgrace to the Gundam universe.]

DBZ isn't something I bother with anymore; I still watch an occasional episode here and there but again I'd rather see Yu Yu Hakusho. And for the sake of good manners and to avoid foul language, I won't start on G-Gundam except to say that I understand why CN decided on airing it but just hope that they can get around to finishing it up faster and move onto something else. I wouldn't mind seeing SD Gundam :-) .

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Friday, August 23, 2002 01:24:36 AM
IP: 12.88.85.116

Well at least G Gundam actually added something new to the "Gundam Mythos" unlike Wing which just shamelessly stole from MSG, Zeta and Char's Counterattack.
Galvatron
Thursday, August 22, 2002 10:25:18 PM
IP: 67.24.189.208

Wingless> "We can only hope we get all the eps-and unedited...I repeat UNEDITED!"

Agreed. The DVD series (if they make it a series) better be "unedited." After all, I'm paying for it, so I'd better get my money's worth...again, I'm glad to that Greg will have so say on the production of the DVD(s) as he mentioned at the Gathering, I think.

Aaron> "So, presuming it doesn't get Atlantised, there will be an L&S series."

Atlantised? So that's the word for it? Well, I'll be sure to add that one to my vocabulary. :)

Airwalker> "if Disney or the regular networks ran CN we'd never even come close to anything like Adult Swim - we'd be lucky to get a watered down version of Toonami."

Sometimes I think even Cartoon Network could do better with Toonami. Though I do like Justice League and such. About the only half-decent show on Toonami is DBZ, but DBZ is overstayed its welcome far too long and I don't even care for it either. And now G-Gundam...(sigh)...it's such a shame, that series is a disgrace to the Gundam universe. "More is the pity."

Jim R.
Thursday, August 22, 2002 08:19:40 PM
IP: 65.164.19.212

Personally I quite like the idea of Pendragon. To be honest, it's really the only possible Gargoyles spin-off that would work, without the original programme airing, as Disney's intention would to create a new market, and mainly target those who the same age we were when we watched Gargoyles back in the mid '90s.

Btw, good to see another New Zealander here.

Mr. X
New Zealand Thursday, August 22, 2002 08:04:31 PM
IP: 202.154.136.39

AIRWALKER - Good points on which spin-offs would work best for Disney nowadays. I think that "Pendragon" would have another advantage, by the way, alongside the one that you mentioned. King Arthur has immediate name-recognition for everybody, even those who never watched "Gargoyles", so he'd need very little introduction. (Griff would be another story, of course, as would the whole business of how Arthur returned to the modern world). The "Pendragon" concept was based as much on Arthurian legend as on the events in "Gargoyles" (though still using such "Gargoyles" elements as the Illuminati), so it would provide good grounding for people new to "Gargoyles" (and could even attract two audiences: "Gargoyles" fans and King Arthur fans - of course, the two groups do overlap - particularly in my case).

And I certainly believe that the "Pendragon" spin-off would have been (or still might be) a lot better than that dreadful "King Arthur and the Knights of Justice" show. (It's a sad commentary on animation that "King Arthur and the Knights of Justice" got two whole seasons, while "Pendragon" never even got made).

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, August 22, 2002 07:08:00 PM
IP: 63.208.47.160

Aaron - Disney bought Saban?! That would explain why ABC and Family Channel Canada are picking up Power Rangers this fall. How disgusting. How little respect they give Gargoyles and yet Power rangers still live. I truly wish they would just go away(Power Rangers, that is).

By the way. Family Channel Canada have their new fall line up going, and no sign of Gargoyles. This after they told several of us that they own the rights to the show till 2003, and yet they havent aired it since mid August 2001. They have carried shows like Ducktails, Goof Troop, and even Recess for 3 years +. Gargoyles was began airing in October 1999 and was pulled August 2001! This after they claim it was among their top rated shows? Now, they claim they don't have complete control over what they air(disney does have a large say for some reason) So-why still air ducktails? Hell, they've been airing ALF for 3 years. I really wish someone would give the show some respect.

Anyway, I'm glad for the DVD upcoming release. We can only hope we get all the eps-and unedited...I repeat UNEDITED!

OK, my rant for the day. It's your turn.

Wingless - [canclan@rogers.com]
Thursday, August 22, 2002 02:54:32 PM
IP: 24.43.42.78

Airwalker> Funny you mention domestic Transformers production. No news of that yet but:

"Apparently, Disney has bought out Saban, who's been working with Hasbro/Takara (Saban put out Robots in Disguise, and Aeon, who did the animation for RiD, is doing the animation for Armada (one week! *bounces*). I'm hearing rumours that they've been selling the Heroes of Cybertron PVCs (little plastic figurines) at The Disney Store." - posted by Artemis Prime (aka A. K. Cyrway) in the MGC room. So Disney now has a piece of the TF pie.

<< I don't know but don't think that Lilo and Stitch is going to be made into a series>> Greg Guler said at the Gathering that he was working on one. So, presuming it doesn't get Atlantised, there will be an L&S series.

Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
Thursday, August 22, 2002 02:13:47 PM
IP: 209.33.140.99

TODD - You wrote: [The big difference is that those other cartoons that you mentioned (He-Man, Transformers, etc.) were all very famous back in the 80's, a lot more famous than "Gargoyles" was while it was running (they were famous more on the level of, say, "Power Rangers"). I don't think that "Gargoyles" ever achieved, in terms of the general public, the same level of name recognition.]

Your right. (And to be honest Transformers began its big comback in the mid 90's with BEAST WARS/MACHINES so I can't really count it among the revivals that are happening now; plus all the Transformer series we have been getting are the Japanese versions dubbed over - we haven't actually been getting any new American production anyway.)

But I think that the fact that there are older shows that are coming back is a sign of two things - first is of course that the people in charge of programming are on a nostalgia kick; that's way He-Man, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Voltron, Transformers, and probably a few other shows that aren't coming to mind right this second are making it back on.

The second reason is most likely a lack of new (or at the very least popular and interesting) ideas for series; let's be honest - there hasn't been that much on the air in animation in the last few years that has been either memorable or mildly interesting. Mostly we've gotten a flood of anime (usually badly dubbed) with Nascar Racers, Recess, and The Ripper Friends thrown in.

(CN network has done better in that it has developed shows like Samurai Jack and The Justice League but CN in general is light years ahead of any of the major networks including the other Toon cable networks in terms of development and new approach; if Disney or the regular networks ran CN we'd never even come close to anything like Adult Swim - we'd be lucky to get a watered down version of Toonami.)

Given all that and the fact that the most recent Disney series haven't exactly been seen much or doing well - Team Atlantis was killed in production (and it sounded like it would have broken the Disney TV series slump that they are in right now) and the best that they can do is Tarzan which has some passing interest for a few episodes but eventually becomes a repeat of the same old formula; and I don't know but don't think that Lilo and Stitch is going to be made into a series, it seems likely that they'd head back to the vault to find material to play with. That's what all the major networks seem to slowly be doing for homegrown shows - otherwise they just get some anime.

That's why I think that despite the fact that GARGOYLES was never really on the same level that HE-MAN was on, that the series will stand a good chance of revival in the near future in some form. They just don't really have any other ideas to put forward. And they only seem to get a good original idea once every few years - so they have to work with what they have.



What is questionable to me is if the main series stands a chance of revival or if its more likely that G2198 would be made in its place. Would Disney want to set an action adventure series in contemporary NYC in these times? Would they be able to do stuff like the Pack blowing up buildings or the Hunters lobbing Missiles into Police Stations? With G2198 we'd probably be dealing with a less recognizable NYC and since its the future anyway and it would be a bit more sci-fi with aliens and such (still being interesting but a little less realistic than just Humans and Gargoyles in recognizable Manhattan) it could do more and not get the network executives worrying.

I even wonder if you can really do a few of the other spin-off too? BAD GUYS is an underground group of questionable characters gathered together to advance the ideology and vision of one man in secret operations; it could play out like GI Joe (that is a good way to sell it to a worried exec) but it can also not sound too good to an exec either. PENDRAGON wouldn't have a problem because even with the modern setting, its abroad first and second having King Arthur around is a draw to more medieval and fantasy elements. Besides its a heroic King and a Knight fighting a secret society trying to take over the world - it might go well with Disney now. TIMEDANCER really needs the main series to be on the air so that it could have a jumping off point and a return point - doing it without GARGOYLES would have been like starting off ANGEL after BUFFY gets cancelled; it could be done but it would lose momentum. DARK AGES has no problems whatsoever outside of prequelitis. And THE NEW OLYMPIANS could be done although it strikes me as being too politically centered to be able to be maintained as a kids cartoon; as literature or a comic or aimed at an older audience it would do well but it could get either overly complicated or at the very least too wordy and not enough action to hold a younger audience.



MOONCAT - You wrote: [Are we doing Golem rambles?]

Not yet. It came up for a mild discussion but we're still waiting for Greg to ramble on it before we say anything major. I just threw in my rant on the Golem before because the legend has always interested me; GOLEM is probably one of my favorite GARGOYLES episodes.



LDACHDRAUG - You wrote: [Anyone think it's weird how it's always full moon on Gargoyles?]

Not really; the episodes are when interesting stuff happens in the GARGOYLES universe; the rest of the time its not important enough for us to need to get a glimpse of it. And its a known fact that weirdness tends to increase when the Full Moon is out; so it does make a certain amount of sense (in an illogical, senseless way :-) ) for most of the episodes to have a full moon in them.

Also it just looks cool to have a full moon in the background. :-) :-)

(And there are episodes where there isn't a full moon; the HUNTERS MOON trilogy for example starts out with no moon and then half moon, working its way to a full moon. But again a Gargoyle flying across a full moon just looks more visually appealing so thats most likely why we get so many full moon shots in the series.)

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Thursday, August 22, 2002 10:10:00 AM
IP: 12.88.87.234

Gemini - umm did you actually ever watch the series? Just wondering. The only way Macbeth or Demona can truly die is if one kills the other, then they both will die. Nothing else counts.

Mooncat
>^,,^<

Mooncat
Thursday, August 22, 2002 05:42:47 AM
IP: 68.102.23.36

*squeals*

There's a manga contest!!! Woohoo!

Clicky:

Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Thursday, August 22, 2002 05:18:40 AM
IP: 129.21.10.146

*looks around* hmmm ... hello, peoples. I'm writing this ... because ... uh, because I can.

Soooo

*idly cleans sword*

Oh great. Now I've forgotten completly what I was gonna say. Brilliant. [insert swearword of choice] brilliant ... maybe I'm just too tired. But honestly, it was actually intelligent.

*clutches eye, which is attacking her*

Uh, I'll substitute. Anyone think it's weird how it's always full moon on Gargoyles?

Lhachdraug - [Jesster@lelola.zzn.com]
KKK, New Zealand
Thursday, August 22, 2002 05:07:40 AM
IP: 210.56.32.40

A friend asked this question.I oculdn't answer it since I forgot.Here it is.
Since the weird sister eternally bonded Demona and Mack beth does it mean they can never die.Or does it just mean that they can't kill each other but someone else could kill one of them.

Gemini_Bloodian - [gemini_bloodian@battleancients.every1.net]
MN, USA
Thursday, August 22, 2002 03:59:38 AM
IP: 216.114.223.198

Are we doing Golem rambles?

Umm... drat. I've seen the ep as many times as any other, which is dozens by now. And it just doesn't stick in my mind. The most forgetable episode for me. It introduces Brode, and that's really the only impact it made on me. Fox's dad isn't that interesting, despite my absolute love for James Garner. Vogel was interesting, but brief.

The show sets things up for Turf. So I tend to look at it in that light, a prequel for Turf.

Mooncat
>^,,^<

Mooncat
Wednesday, August 21, 2002 08:37:08 PM
IP: 68.102.23.36

AIRWALKER - The big difference is that those other cartoons that you mentioned (He-Man, Transformers, etc.) were all very famous back in the 80's, a lot more famous than "Gargoyles" was while it was running (they were famous more on the level of, say, "Power Rangers"). I don't think that "Gargoyles" ever achieved, in terms of the general public, the same level of name recognition.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, August 21, 2002 07:30:56 PM
IP: 67.28.91.134

GEMINI - You wrote: [I was just wondering about the Gargoyles series. Are they planning to cancel gargoyles?]

It's been cancelled for a while now; there hasn't been any new GARGOYLES episodes made since 1997. The last episode shown was from THE GOLIATH CHRONICLES and was called ANGELS IN THE NIGHT.

You wrote: [And if they aren't planing to cancel Gargoyles will they be making more series and episodes of it]

Although the series is cancelled now, we still hope that one of these days (hopefully sooner rather than later) the series (or at least one of the spinoffs) will start up again in some (i.e. ANY :-) ) format.

At this point all we can say is that a GARGOYLES DVD will be coming out next year (but most likely will just be a DVD release of AWAKENINGS, the first five episodes of the series) and maybe good sales on that will spur interest in a GARGOYLES revival at Disney.

The only other positive thing that we can point to is that recently lots of older shows have been having revivals such as Transformers and He Man; if He Man can make it back to TV then anything can. (Hell even Macross is getting a new OVA made.) Plus a lot of these older shows have also been having good comic book revivals which might be another good way to go about reviving GARGOYLES - if GI JOE and THUNDERCATS can come back as on going comic series then so can GARGOYLES.

You wrote: [Also is Fox considered one of overon's children?]

Technically she is a Halfling but since she was raised as a Human Oberon doesn't seem to consider her to be one of his subjects.

The real question I wonder about Fox and her Halfling status is this: without functioning control over her magical abilities will her powers still give her basic unaging immortality or will she just get a slightly extended lifespan? Does the amount of control over the inborn magical heritage determine this or would just knowledge that she has some sort of power kick immortality in? If she doesn't gain control of her powers would she live and die as any normal human would or would they still have an effect?

You wrote: [Would that make her one of Overons Children?]

Oberon was using some very twisted logic in dealing with Fox and Alex; on the one hand he dismissed Fox as not being his subject because she was basically Human due to never having developed her magical ability. But on the other hand while dismissing Fox he basically accepted Alex if not as a child of Oberon then at least as a sort of StepGrandson (mainly to please Titania - otherwise he probably wouldn't have bothered or cared).

He's equally twisted in his logic about taking Alex - he declares in one breath that he can't intefer in Fox's life because she's Human but in the next breath says that he can take the child anyway because he might have the potential for magic at some point in the future. Basically ignoring the fact that taking a child away from his mother forever within an hour of her giving birth is grossly interfering in that persons life.



BUD-CLARE - You wrote: [So are those aliens from Excel Saga. I want to know what Hamtaro _really_ looks like.]

Oh God, could he secretly look like characters out of Golgo 13 too? And is just trying to use his cute look to conquer the world? Must look away.... but can't..... cuteness is too powerful.... puuchuuuuuu...... :-)

You wrote: [This is another reason why cloning shouldn't be used... it's just too damn confusing. :P]

It's confusing only if you have an imagination and some vision when cloning; otherwise cloning gets boring after a while. For numerous examples of how right I am just refer to 20 years worth of various X-books. :-)

(At least Superman had the decency to drop the idea after driving it into the ground; the X-books have no shame.)

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Wednesday, August 21, 2002 11:18:09 AM
IP: 12.88.86.215

Airwalker> "Hamtaro is just so damn cute!"
So are those aliens from Excel Saga. I want to know what Hamtaro _really_ looks like. There's no way that something which looks cute but sings unspeakably evil songs can _not_ be evil itself. :P

Todd> Happy birthday.

Airwalker> "if he started splicing together DNA to get something like Delilah then it wouldn't be a clone, it would be a hybrid."
A hybrid of clones. Er, a clone of hybrids? No, that doesn't work, either. Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that it'd be... not entirely un-cloned. This is another reason why cloning shouldn't be used... it's just too damn confusing. :P

Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Wednesday, August 21, 2002 04:02:18 AM
IP: 129.21.10.101

Oh, and "The Gathering" was only a two-parter.
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
Wednesday, August 21, 2002 02:19:52 AM
IP: 68.59.42.164

Have we entered a time warp? Where've you been, pal? Gargoyles was cancelled six years ago (five if you count the Goliath Chronicles). While many of us have hopes that it could be revived, Disney currently has no plans to continue it.

As for Fox: She's half-third race, half-human. This gives her some magical abilities and probably longer than normal lifespan, but no one's clear on exactly what it would entail (at least, to my knowledge, though it's possible Greg's said something about it).

Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
Wednesday, August 21, 2002 02:18:29 AM
IP: 68.59.42.164

<>Peeks in<>
Gray Wolf
Wednesday, August 21, 2002 12:48:44 AM
IP: 217.58.196.222

I was just wondering about the "Gargoyles" series.Are they planning to cancel gargoyles?I heard a couple rumors theat they were but I didn't know if they would though.And if they aren't planing to cancel Gargoyles will they be making more series and episodes of it.I've seen the entire series like 2-4 times but I have never seen any new episodes.

Also is Fox considered one of overon's children.Because Queen Tatania had a baby with a human.And in the episode "THE GATHERING PART 3"Didn't Overon try to take Xanatos and Foxs baby and she awaken some sleeping power and used it on Lord Overon.Would that make her one of Overons Children?

Gemini_Bloodian - [gemini_bloodian@battleancients.every1.net]
MN, USA
Wednesday, August 21, 2002 12:22:00 AM
IP: 216.114.222.140

AIRWALKER - Thanks for the info about the original Golem legends. (I've only got a general knowledge of these, though I was still aware of how the Golem eventually had to be shut down when it began running amok). Thanks for explaining about Rabbi Loew's nickname as well. (And, yep, I had noticed how the Golem in "Gargoyles" had to be stopped from killing Brod).

Actually, I think that the part that would really disgust Demona about Sevarius cloning Angela would be for the "sex toy" purpose; it'd give her one more reason on her list of "why humans are scum". (For that matter, I've sometimes wondered what Demona's response would be towards all those Gargoyles fans who lust after her - actually, I don't think that I want to know the answer to that one).

Thanks to everybody who wished me a happy birthday. I had a nice one, too. (I even celebrated it a little by watching one of my "Gargoyles" tapes - "Heritage", in this case - I'm gradually watching all of my "Gargoyles" tapes this summer from "Awakening" down to "Hunter's Moon", and this was the latest one on the list).

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, August 20, 2002 07:09:17 PM
IP: 63.208.41.220

TODD - You wrote: [LA is obviously Los Angeles, but what is F? I can't identify that one at all.]

Its an EXCEL SAGA reference; She is trying to conquer the City of F in the Prefecture of F. (The organisation she works for is into World Domination but decided to start off small and not strain themselves too much. :-) ) The city is supposted to be a normal Japanese City except that endless (and constantly hillarious) things keep happening to it. If GARGOYLES were set there, Goliath and company probably wouldn't get out of bed in the evening so to speak. :-)

(By the way, I really do recommend EXCEL SAGA if your looking for a good laugh - its a pretty good series although if you watch it subtitled get read to read at superspeed cause that's how fast Excel talks. The first volume was released by ADV a few weeks ago; the second one is going to be coming out next Tuesday.)

You wrote: [I think that the Arthurian character whom Demona resembles is Morgan le Fay rather than Mordred.]

That is a better comparison than the one I put forward; I was mainly thinking of the whole betraying royalty and destroying kingdoms angle in the Mordred/Demona analogy. Still she would make a good substitute for antagonist Macbeth in any PENDRAGON series; although I wouldn't recommend her for a permanent villain for this series - I could see her pop in once in a while for a few interesting multi-parters and perhaps a story arc. (Given the similarity you mention to Morgana an allience between the two of them would be an interesting situation for Arthur to have to deal with.)

You wrote: [It did a particularly interesting take on the Golem (and one quite different from the Gargoyles take on it); here, the Golem is portrayed as definitely sentient and able to speak, and is filled with wonder at the world around it]

The GARGOYLES version is much closer to the original legend than the book that you mention; according to everything I've read and heard of Golem's and of the Maharal's Golem they aren't able to speak and isn't sentient. The entire point was that the Golem was soulless - it was just an animated piece of Clay. That's why according to all the legends it had to be deactivated - eventually its soulless nature made it dangerous and impossible to control. Eventually even with a extremely powerful morality and will the person guiding it wouldn't be able to control it. The Golem would run amock becoming a danger to all that it was supposed to be protecting.

The Golem in GARGOYLES even leans towards this part of the legend a bit - it was going to kill Brode before Max Loew stopped it; The legend puts Max in a tragic position - eventually he's going to have to deactivate it just as his ancestor did. The main change that GARGOYLES has is that the legend has the Maharal actually destroy the Golem by dissolving it while here he just stored it away. And even with that it sticks close to the legend; without the paper containing the spell it was just useless Clay. In the legend the paper was removed and then the body was dissolved; here jut the paper was removed.

(By the way Maharal is an acronym that Rabbi Loew is refered to in traditional texts. Maharal is made up of the first four Hebrew letters of the title and name he was known by: Moraynu HaRav (Yehuda) Loew - Our Teacher The Rabbi (Judah) Loew. M-H-R-L; That's how its spelled out in Hebrew since the Hebrew alphabet has no vowels. Vowels are represented by a series of dots underneath the word or specific letter and can be left out.)

You wrote: [By the way, today's my birthday.]

Happy Birthday!



PATRICK - You wrote: [I think it's a bit hasty to just jump to the conclusion that Demona would automatically freak if she found out Angela had a clone.]

You have a point; but I still think that she wouldn't be happy about it in general. After all she had the opportunity to actually make the move to create a clone of her daughter but didn't take it. (In fact the opportunity is always still open to her - she could easily get a DNA sample if she wanted to; in fact Sevarius might still have the one he took in MONSTERS.) I don't think that she would go for it.

Still if it were done independently and were an established fact before she could do anything about it, she might accept the situation and go with it so to speak. Although would she value the clone as her daughter and not as just another pawn of no value whatsoever?

Not to say she's not going to use Angela as a sort of pawn since she has done that before but she seems the most human in behavior and leaning from all the Gargoyles even down to the reaction she had to finding out she had a daughter - she strikes me as someone who might take that biological connection much more seriously from the start than Goliath ever did or ever wanted to. That might have more influence on how she would look at a clone. Would it be an opportunity to have a second daughter who she would be willing to risk alot for like Angela or would she just see the clone as an it rather than a her, as just a partner in crime like Xanatos?



JIM R - You wrote: [For some reason I can't picture what her clone would look like. A cross between Elisa and Angela, maybe? Or more rather a cross bewteen Angela and Sevarius's love interest]

I don't think that Sevarius has that much interest in Elisa - we never see any indication of it anywhere in the series at all.

Besdies if it is a Clone then its going to be an exact copy (well since its a Gargoyle the coloring would be different but otherwise you know what I mean); if he started splicing together DNA to get something like Delilah then it wouldn't be a clone, it would be a hybrid.

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Tuesday, August 20, 2002 06:31:19 PM
IP: 12.88.90.151

Ask Greg update. Two memos, one question.

Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
Tuesday, August 20, 2002 06:29:11 PM
IP: 209.33.140.99

Why, Happy Birthday Todd! A mere 18 days after mine.

Angela clone> For some reason I can't picture what her clone would look like. A cross between Elisa and Angela, maybe? Or more rather a cross bewteen Angela and Sevarius's love interest, if he should ever have one (or knowing Sevarius, "grow" one). Heh. :)

Jim R.
Tuesday, August 20, 2002 06:18:09 PM
IP: 65.164.19.247

finally nack after a few days!!

Happy Birthday Todd!!!!!!!!

just cuz it was mentined i thought i'd say that while i was never a very big HeMan fan i DID have Skeletor's Castle with the voice altering microphone. at KBToys (one of my jobs) we've been getting a ton of HeMan toys in, including Castle Grayskull. i love the design of Mer-Man, reminds me of how i picture the Loch Ness Clan gargs.

laters

matt
Tuesday, August 20, 2002 05:14:00 PM
IP: 207.230.53.28

*Breaks out the birthday candles* Happy Birthday, Todd! Have a good one!
ColdFire
Tuesday, August 20, 2002 03:32:09 PM
IP: 24.78.133.4

Greetings all...

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone that's stopped by the new issue of Avalon Mists (over 300 visits so far)... it's great to see people still read the 'zine.

However I understand lately that people are going to the new server at gargoyles-fans.org, which isn't fully set up yet with the old archive and the new one for future issues. I would ask that everyone not go there for the time being, until we have everything in place. Not to worry... it's only temporary until I can get someone with better coding skills than my own to put everything into place.

For the time being, you can access the new issue at the following link: http://www.tenament.com/stephenrs/amists/index.html

As a side note, I've seen/heard litting in the way of feedback on the new issue. Good or bad, I'd like to hear just how the new Avalon Mists is perceived, and if I'm doing a good job with it.

To that end, I've set up a forum for the fans to leave their reviews/comments/suggestions on. You can do so by going to the following link:

http://pub14.ezboard.com/bavalonmistsforum

Any and all critiques/comments and such are appreciated and encouraged.

That's all from me... Maintain and Check Six!

Stephen R. Sobotka Jr. - [ssobotka33616@yahoo.com]
Tampa, FL, USA
Tuesday, August 20, 2002 09:51:09 AM
IP: 65.35.132.45

BLAISE - Will do. (When I next do some question-clearing, of course).

By the way, today's my birthday.

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, August 20, 2002 07:33:00 AM
IP: 65.56.168.90

****A giant, bright red balloon appears out of nowhere. It is unremarkable otherwise...except for Blaise's face on it.**** Boy is my face red...

TODD> Ummm, I made a slight error on Ask Greg....
I thought I hadn't posted my ramble for MONSTERS there, so I re-copied it up there just now, and then while scrolling down out of curiosity, found I had posted it already last week!! As if the que wasn't large enough!
So, there's one thing you can delete--my second, superfluous MONSTERS ramble. Sorry again.

Be back to comment when the DCV comes up. Until then, farewell. ****The balloon explodes, suffusing the room with multicolored sparkles of light.****

Blaise
Tuesday, August 20, 2002 03:18:01 AM
IP: 64.24.183.194

Updated MGC again!!
http://mgc.gargoyles-fans.org/update.php

11 more days until the end of our August Topic Gargoyles on DVD! You've still got plenty of time to enter! :) Screen captures are allowed for this specific topic, but don't also let that stop all the artists from coming up with their usual masterpieces! :D

Voting starts September 1st! As well as the topic submissions for September's topic..which is...a surprise. ;D

Siryn - [<--Monthly Gargoyles Art Contest]
Monday, August 19, 2002 11:41:15 PM
IP: 129.21.145.6

:: bounces in, singing ::

"Send in the clones... there ought to be clones..."

Anyone who's interested in seeing a take on what might happen if Sevarius cloned Angela might wish to check out the latest multi-part fic by Madame Destine, "Home is a Dark Place." And for those who are hesitant due to the authors, ahem, reputation... this one's only rated R.
Also... I think it's a bit hasty to just jump to the conclusion that Demona would automatically freak if she found out Angela had a clone. Especially if the clone is mentally still very young and impressionable, and she showed up at that point in time where Demona is getting really frustrated with Angela's inability to be swayed to her side. Just think about it for a minute and see if you don't get the shivers, too. ;)

:: bounces off ::

Patrick Toman
Monday, August 19, 2002 11:15:42 PM
IP: 67.38.251.215

AIRWALKER - LA is obviously Los Angeles, but what is F? I can't identify that one at all.

I think that the Arthurian character whom Demona resembles is Morgan le Fay rather than Mordred. (Mordred's closest equivalent in the Gargoyles Universe, in my opinion, is Thailog). After all, both of them are bitter, vengeance-motivated sorceresses (the Pendragon-Cornwall feud in Morgan le Fay's case).

I'm going to wait until after Greg Weisman does his ramble on "Golem" to go into detail on this episode, but I thought that I'd mention this. Not too long ago, there was a children's picture book published about the Golem legend, that actually won an award (I forget which one). It did a particularly interesting take on the Golem (and one quite different from the Gargoyles take on it); here, the Golem is portrayed as definitely sentient and able to speak, and is filled with wonder at the world around it - somebody who could stare with silent delight at a sunset or a sunrise, or a bird flying overhead or flowers or just about anything. Then, when, at the end of the story, Rabbi Loew tells the Golem that he'll be shutting it down and putting it up in the attic of the synagogue, the Golem is utterly upset, and pleads with him not to do that, since then it'll no longer be able to see all the wonders and beauty of the world - but the Rabbi remains firm and deactivates it. There's even a historical note at the back about how the Golem legends arose (Rabbi Loew, by the way, was a real person - although the Golem legend was attached to him rather late - and so respected a scholar that even the Holy Roman Emperor would meet with him).

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, August 19, 2002 07:05:51 PM
IP: 65.56.170.206

TODD - You wrote: [Come to think of it, it's this sort of thing which may explain why so many super-hero series are generally set in made-up cities like Metropolis or Gotham.]

Probably. But I think that its more worthwhile to set the story in a real place/city/setting rather than making one up - it adds to the story. I liked Batman and Superman but they never clicked with me the same way that Marvel characters (Most of Marvel was set in real cities and NYC in particular; it was considered a real innovation at the time) did - the real setting helped to add realism to the characters and their plights. I could relate to Spider Man broke in Queens and struggling for Money in Manhattan than I could with Superman first coming to Metropolis or Batman constantly visiting Crime Alley.

(The same dynamic was at work in the movies - the first two Batman movies, while being very good, didn't have a sense of here and now while Spider Man was basically swinging around buildings I see every other day. (And it was sort of more fun/frustrating to see recognize the places in Spider Man especially in how they reordered them - the Library and the Armory where he was wrestling are about twenty blocks apart for example - made me laugh out loud in the theatre. Gotham on the other hand always looked distant and cold in comparison.)

While development of GARGOYLES would have made their version of NYC transform eventually, its being set there still added the necessary realism to the series; if they'd set it anywhere else it just wouldn't fit right - the tone would be gone. (I shudder to think what GARGOYLES would be like in the city of F or even, god forbid, in LA :-) :-) )

You wrote: [Antagonists work best if they have a "twisted echo" of the protagonist about them. Greg observed that in "Gargoyles" where so many of the antagonists have just that sort of quality vis a vis Goliath (especially Thailog). So the same thing would have to happen with Arthur if his spin-off were to be made.]

True. And largely I still think that many of the main series villains cast could easily be used or even move into PENDRAGON. Many of them do fit the criteria that you've listed but also we should keep in mind two other things - first is that Arthur isn't alone so his companions need some "personal" villains of their own and second is that not every enemy that Arthur and Company will fight is going to be an epic villain - some are just going to be enemies that don't have deep significance to the underlying main quest and battles of Arthur Pendragon. Some are just going to be ordinary antagonist/enemies who just need a good kick in the ass.

You wrote: [So obviously, other antagonists for Arthur would need some sort of resonance for him (or for Griff). Xanatos could work on that level, for example, in the same way that he did for Goliath (contrast of medieval honor with modern-day amorality).]

I think that Demona could exist well as a "supplimental" villain for Arthur in place of Macbeth. (She could almost be a seen as a sort of Mordred-ish character which would make her more relevent as an enemy of Arthur.)

Brode could make a good enemy in terms of the minor annoyance kind that I mentioned above - he'd be the Tony Dracon for the series, less someone who is seriously related to his quest and someone who is more an opposition to his moral leanings. (Not every adventure has to be epic; Arthur should have to spend some time just helping out ordinary people after all - isn't that what a Knight does? And ordinary people are going to have more direct problems from Brode than they are going to have from anyone Arthur might be looking for overall.) The Pack could occasionally fall into this category although I do think that they'd be more GARGOYLES and BAD GUYS type villains than anything that would show up in PENDRAGON.

Coldsteel might make a better enemy for Griff than for Arthur - both are time ripped Gargoyles who don't really have a place with the Clans that they were born into but while one became a Knight the other one went off to do god knows what. And Coldsteel did have a sort of European flavor to his behavior that would set him up better in a European setting that Arthur and Griff might end up in from time to time. (Although this might just be a bit of a stretch - Coldsteel seems more of a fit for GARGOYLES than any of the other series. But since he was wandering around I could see him show up in a few other series like BAD GUYS since his technology gives him a sort of connection to Matrix; and in TIMEDANCER where he could be an personal enemy of the far future to Brooklyn. Plus he could make a good NEW OLYMPIANS cameo in that its a Classical/Modern society so that might fit his essential nature as a Medieval minded Gargoyle in a Modern Robotic shell.)

I stand by the idea of Banshee and Cyberbiotics as adversaries if not out and out enemies. Banshee is a mystical element for the series - a proxy for Oberon that Merlin would have to cope with as well as a possible proxy for the various Fey women who helped/plagued Arthur in his last life. Besides her twist could also be in the Avalon question - she didn't want to be there and had to be while Arthur had to be and isn't.

As for Cyberbiotics, it can be viewed as a rival Kingdom of sorts with misguided leadership that needs Arthur to show up and straighten out (There has to be something like that in Arthurian Legend :-) ); its multi-national value puts it in as a sort of lower level Illuminati Society (isn't that how a Medieval mind might look at that sort of thing?) which may cause problems for Arthur and Company. (It could also be a Merlin antagonist - after all we don't know exactly who owns the property where the Crystal Cave is located :-) Knowing the kind of luck that heroes on TV tend to have we could have another THE GREEN in the making.)



ALLAINE - You wrote: [Considering Toonami seems to frustrate me on a monthly basis (getting rid of great shows to make room for more DBZ, for example)]

I haven't watched that much Toonami in a while although I did manage to catch an episode of G-Gundam (to spare everyone an endless rant made completely of foul language I won't get into it :-) ) Powerpuff Girls and Hamtaro. (Hamtaro is just so damn cute! :-) )

I rather invest my CN watching time on Adult Swim than on anything else - I can't wait to see them show Char's Couterattack and their is a possibility that they might get the rights to the Escaflowne Movie too. Plus I prefer Yu Yu Hakusho to DBZ (although while its not a bad dub, its better in Japanese).

You wrote: [And whew, that Evilyn certainly got some magic steroids, her powers were seriously juiced.]

Well isn't she going to need something to help her fight the revamped version of She-Ra? :-) :-) (That's just a guess! :-) )



ANGELA CLONE - It would be really hillarious if Sevarius was looking to replace the real Angela and put in the Clone a personality that was even more sugery and sweet than the one he was disgusted with in MONSTERS. I'd love to see the reaction of the cast to that! :-)



COLDFIRE - You wrote: [I wonder how much of that area is now under water due to all the flooding and what the Golem is doing to protect the people, not to, of course, trivialize the tragedy at all.]

Actually the entire area that we saw in the episode (specifically the synagogue the Golem was hidden in which was a real historical landmark known as the AltneuShul - the Old New Synagogue) was in the old historical district (the Old Town) and also part of the Jewish Quarter. That area was partially or fully underwater depending on the street you were on. It was completely evacuated before the water got too deep. (The AltneuShul by the way did take a little water damage but according to what I heard, it wasn't as serious damaged as some of the other historical Synagogues in the area.)

If this event were to have a parallel in the GARGOYLES universe I imagine that the Golem would have stayed out of the way while people evacuated; and probably would have been moved himself to avoid any water damage. (Golems according to legend were high maintenance beings to keep around; and also eventually very dangerous for a variety of reasons.)

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Monday, August 19, 2002 04:47:17 PM
IP: 12.88.101.199

I just finished watching "Golem" again. I had a few comments on it -- not too much so as to let Greg have the first say.

Prague>I wonder how much of that area is now under water due to all the flooding and what the Golem is doing to protect the people, not to, of course, trivialize the tragedy at all.

Also, I've always loved the line at the end,"Do justice and love mercy." That is, of course, a verse from the Old Testament -- Micah 6:8. I love when Biblical references are made in respectful ways in tv shows and "Gargoyles" did it well.

That's all.

ColdFire
Monday, August 19, 2002 02:28:14 PM
IP: 24.78.133.4

I updated my website! Woohoo! It's not a very big update, but it's the first one in years, so yay for me! :)
(I haven't updated either the Gargoyles page or the Temple of Owen and Puck yet, but I'm working on it.) Won't you clicky?

Gabriel> "nothing about bookmarks that might perhaps feature Goliath? :D"
*grumbles and goes to look* Shoot. I'm sorry. I could have sworn that I had half a dozen, but now I can only find one. If you want, you can try emailing Tanika at bluewyvern@dpwr.net. (She was a comment room regular years ago. She had a whole box of the bookmarks last I knew.)

Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Monday, August 19, 2002 10:12:42 AM
IP: 129.21.12.46

Oh, well. Tenth! :)
warrioress
Monday, August 19, 2002 10:09:45 AM
IP: 64.219.130.113

Ninth? *gasps* I can't believe it.

Sincerely, Allaine

Allaine - [eac2nd@yahoo.com]
Philadelphia, PA
Monday, August 19, 2002 09:28:11 AM
IP: 152.163.189.68

Eighth!!

bud-clare> <<And nothing useful to add>>

nothing about bookmarks that might perhaps feature Goliath? :D
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Monday, August 19, 2002 09:04:26 AM
IP: 129.120.35.51

Seventh!

And nothing useful to add. :P

Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Monday, August 19, 2002 03:11:54 AM
IP: 129.21.12.46

Sixth, for Baltimore and Maryland, I guess. And my sister, who takes three hours to "check her mail" . . .

Yeah, I'd always wondered why Sevarius became a geneticist . . . guess those "fringe benefits" really make all the difference.

Although I don't think the Angela clone would be able to pass for Angela at all, even if her colors ended up being all right. Because the actions and reactions of a being brought up as a sex toy would be distinctly different from Angela, regardless of anything else . . . even if they wore the same skin, they would definately be a different being. Actually, even if Sevarius didn't use her as a sex toy, she would still be a far cry from the Angela we all know and love . . . far, far away.

Although I agree about Demona; heaven help Sevarius if she would find out about such a creation. X.x;;; Not sure it would be so worth it, then.

I _do_ wonder what said being would be like, though, if she did manage to get out of Sevarius' clutches? It's interesting to ponder . . . although the idea creeps me out. The entire clone buisiness was fairly creepy to me, actually . . .


((And for the record, about the Shakespeare question, my first exposure was "A Midsummer Night's Dream" in seventh grade English; although I still can't get my head around a lot of Shakespeare too well, that play is still something I continue to enjoy muchly. ^^ Just to put my piece on that))

Lady Baltimore
MD, USA
Monday, August 19, 2002 02:44:42 AM
IP: 67.242.159.201

<ENTER LORD SLOTH>
<YAWN> oh man, I'm getting quite forgetful in this higher level of complacency; I'm sure that's going to serve me very well when I begin Collage in aboot 2 weeks from now. That's Sheridan College BTW for those who care, Art fundamentals and then the *ANIMATION* program, woo-who. I just wish I sounded as excited as this reads.
Anyway, why is it I'm posting here again? Oh yeah, of course; I claim FIFTH for the glory of Slothatopia, and for all those unlucky endangered Sloths still trying to find their way there.
<EXIT LORD SLOTH>

Lord Sloth - [spunkidge13@hotmail.com]
Kingston , ON , Canada
Monday, August 19, 2002 02:09:22 AM
IP: 216.209.110.139

I claim 4th for the Fay!

Mooncat
>^,,^<

Mooncat
Monday, August 19, 2002 01:45:18 AM
IP: 68.102.23.36

3rd : )
Princess Alexandria - [princess_alex24@hotmail.com]
WA, USA
Monday, August 19, 2002 01:37:07 AM
IP: 64.91.49.9

2nd!! :)
Knoxville - [knox@ketnar.org]
Monday, August 19, 2002 12:17:14 AM
IP: 208.54.204.232

Wow! might I actually be first!? wow, its been a while. Wooo
Wingless
Monday, August 19, 2002 12:06:25 AM
IP: 24.43.42.78