Comments for the week ending September 23, 2002

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TODD - You wrote: [Actually, I suspect that the removal of the Weird Sisters' spell from Macbeth and Demona would kill them, since without it, they'd probably age about 900 years or more and collapse into dust.]

I always figured that if they removed the spell then Demona and Macbeth would default back to the conditions that existed before the spell - Macbeth would get his youth back and Demona would morph into a crone. Remember the actual spell was an exchange of youth between the two characters - the immortality clause was added in as a hidden fine print; it wasn't the main thrust of the spell that the two of them agreed to.

You wrote: [The spell is the only reason why they've survived all these years, after all.]

The spell gives them immortality but we don't know how it works or how it is granting them immortality. It could be that the spell is directly keeping them alive although I personally doubt that is the way the spell works. It could be HIGHLANDER immortality (basically sort of reprogramming their bodies to continously heal) with the spell only having an effect on their Karma to keep them from losing a head that might actually really kill them again ala HIGHLANDER. The spell wouldn't have to be something in effect 24 hours a day in this case since Demona and Macbeth would be doing the healing themselves and the spell would only have to kick in to keep an extreme situation from getting out of hand.

After all having the spell do all the healing all the time would take a lot of energy which might not be something the Weird Sisters would want to happen. If there is a constant use of energy then Oberon might notice the spell and that might lead to some uncomfortable questions for them.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Sunday, September 22, 2002 11:05:19 AM
IP: 12.88.162.7

Greg B> Yep, thanks to the sales of Kingdom Hearts, there's going to be a part 2. Disney is happy since their other games are crap and don't sell well.
Roy Sato
Sunday, September 22, 2002 03:34:49 AM
IP: 64.75.151.23

Kiva - thanks for the info! Yes, it really is beautiful. I keep thinking about it.

MC
>^,,^<
Mooncat
Saturday, September 21, 2002 09:58:48 PM
IP: 68.102.23.36

Guten Abend, Gargoyles fans.

Jenna> I have a similar question.

Where is St. Damien's Cathedral located?

Bud-Clare> I like your live journal. I rate on Hellsing as the servant guy, Walter Dolneaz.

<<That may well be true, but that's still entirely beside the point that I was trying to make. He was a good king, he had a family he adored (and vice versa), and one day he lost it all. He went from being about as much in control of his own life as any person can be, to more or less floating around the world for centuries, unable to stay in any place for too long, etc. I'm sure that many times during his life, he regained a large degree of control over his life (like during the series, for instance), but never to the degree that he had before, and he was never as quite as happy again. Then a sword comes along that, to his mind, can make him king again. It's no damn wonder he latched onto the idea of claiming it for himself, for any number of reasons.>>

Well, MacBeth is more complex than just a run of the mill good guy or a villain as well. His desire to claim the sword is understandable and on a certain level, impressive. King Arthur has returned from his sleep and wants to reclaim his sword. Now, it is his destiny to get it as he picked the correct sword, but why should he face no challenge?

As for MacBeth, he seems a shade of grey that I'd rate on the egde of good, though that may be do to his sense of honor and that he also knows when to yield. MacBeth should try for it. What does he have to lose? It isn't his to get as we see, but let him try. King Arthur needs a challenge to prove his right and MacBeth gains a learning experience as well as a new allay.

As for his past problems and all that he lost, I see MacBeth being delighted when Modern Psychology came fo age in the 19th century. I bet he consulted all sorts of therapists (especially after they stopped believing enemas cured depression) and one can imagine who many drugs he has taken for what I imagine to be severe depression.

Greg X> <<What do you want from me? I'm EVIL! EVIL! ;)>> Can't argue with that :)

Bud-Clare> <<If you really love someone, violence shouldn't be such a short step away... >> I'd go that route. If that happened to me and I wasn't ready to terminate the relationship myself, I'd just get really depressed and bitter, but not violent. I also tend to giev away anything she gave me. like when Jessica dumped me for my religious beleifs, I gave my mother the Far Side page a day calendar she gave me. Of course, I have quite a bit of bitterness in me, though it is less than it used to be.

Lady Baltimore> I have not met you before. I used to post here and just sort of forgot to keep doing that.

Aaron> How about if the good guy is Machiavellian and treacherous? That should make a contrast to the normal guileless hero.

Patrick Toman> <<Demona, 3462 A.D.: "It was the APES! Always those damn dirty APES!">> That sounds like a fic idea :)

And in honor of you, a countdown of my own: 25 days until I go to Kosovo.


Green Baron - [greenbaron@hotmail.com]
Hanau, Germany
Saturday, September 21, 2002 07:45:15 PM
IP: 62.104.212.101

Actually, I suspect that the removal of the Weird Sisters' spell from Macbeth and Demona would kill them, since without it, they'd probably age about 900 years or more and collapse into dust. The spell is the only reason why they've survived all these years, after all.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Saturday, September 21, 2002 06:48:28 PM
IP: 65.57.60.192

KIVA> There's a sequal in the works from what I hear. If Roy knows anyone over at Square Tokyo, he needs to suggest another great Disney villainess for the game, our personal favorite... Demona.
Greg Bishansky
Saturday, September 21, 2002 03:23:38 PM
IP: 216.179.1.178

Mooncat> Roy didn't work on Kingdom Hearts, but Squaresoft Tokyo did. (Roy worked for Square USA, one of the US studios) :) I went out with him to buy it the day it came out and it was BEAUTIFUL! I've been addicted to that game ever since. Heehee. ^_^


Kiva
Saturday, September 21, 2002 03:14:05 PM
IP: 64.75.150.223

Question - Did Roy Sato / Squaresoft work on Kingdom Hearts? Because that is so totally gorgeous! Saw a friend play the intro last night, and it was totally yummy. I don't play video games, but this was enought to at least tempt me.

laters
MC
Mooncat
Saturday, September 21, 2002 10:47:48 AM
IP: 68.102.23.36

PATRICK - You wrote: [Demona, 3462 A.D.: "It was the APES! Always those damn dirty APES!"]

Damn Them! Damn them all to HELL! :-) :-)



AARON - You wrote: [Sad but true. But Lupin is better then Spike. Lupin wins most of the time.]

I haven't see THAT much LUPIN but I do think from what I saw that it is very good. COWBOY BEBOP is more along the lines of LUPIN in the future; thats one of the things that appealed to me about it - the futuristic setting.

(By the way one of the LUPIN mangas got picked up for domestic distribution; I think it was COMICS ONE that got the rights but I'm not entirely sure. I was busy reading about the live action YOUR UNDER ARREST series thats being done in Japan so I wasn't paying complete attention to the LUPIN info.)

You wrote: [Ah, but I said Media Blasters did bad *subbing*, not dubbing.]

Right, my mistake; I wasn't paying attention. How was the subbing horrible? Misspellings and Engrish? :-) Or they just use a translation that didn't appeal?

(I have heard that a lot of long time KENSHIN fans who managed to get the fansubs before the show was picked up were unhappy with the official subbing; the SHINSEN GUMI/HECTO fansubs were said to flow better in comparison but tended to use a lot of cursing that just wasn't actually being said to help differentiate the polite and gruff speech that was part of Kenshin's personality. Did they leave that whole "That it is" bit they were using in the dub that turned Kenshin into a hick in the subs?)



TODD - You wrote: [I think that what this means is more that Demona and Macbeth would have eventually killed each other, but not yet in 2158 (now 2198), rather than that the Weird Sisters' spell would have come to an end.]

More likely than not they will probably have to end up killing each other to end their immortality (although I hope that the act of doing so will bring them full circle and help them both find some measure of peace ala the Magus rather than just being the miserable end to a pair of miserable lives).

But my understanding of the statement led me to think in a different direction due to the ambigiuous nature of the statement. It doesn't say the Demona and Macbeth wouldn't last past 2158 (now the area of 2198), only that their immortality wouldn't last past sometime around that point. Immortality can end without the characters having to end with it.

Of course since its a fey spell we are dealing with who knows what the real deal with it is - it could be that Demona and Macbeth killing each other only ends the immortality clause that the Sisters slipped in and doesn't permanently kill them. The Weird Sisters say something to the extent that they have to wander around forever until one kills the other and ends their misery; but I don't remember the exact wording at the end of the line - do they explicitly say that killing each other would bring final death or did they use some ambigious term that suggested that if Demona and Macbeth killed each other that they would be freed from that eternal existance? There is a major difference after all.

Personally I think that it would be more interesting if they didn't have such a loophole as I've suggested and that killing each other really brings true death. But at the same time I think it would be more interesting if immortality really meant that - that it wouldn't end so easily and that they wouldn't take that route even if it was in some heroic, redeeming manner. I think that it would fit the series more if they had to keep going on much longer - and events in the series give them reasons (at least to Demona) to keep going. Some small chance at change, a love interest, a new status quo, etc - killing the character on the verge of that seems a bit off to me. So I wonder if the immortality ending is still part of G2198 or if there is a loophole to even things out a bit.

You wrote: [I wonder if it would even be possible for the Sisters to remove the spell, of course, but we'll probably never know.]

I doubt that they have the leeway to be able to remove the spell at this point or that they would have the concent to do so from both characters; even if they pulled another CITY OF STONE 4 moment on Demona I don't think she'd be so out of it that she'd volunteer to have her immortality removed. What I wonder is can a spell wear out? Is a magical spell infinite or does it have a specific time limit to it after which point it begins to expire sort of like a carton of milk or a bottle of asprin?

You wrote: [And if they did, I'd view it as a cop-out on the part of the production team.]

I'd view the Sisters just up and taking the spell off of Demona and Macbeth as a cop-out too. I'm not so sure how I would feel about a loophole existing that would let them live mortal lives after fufilling the terms of the spell. I'm not even sure that the two characters would be able to live as mortals again - a thousand years of being immortal makes you think and act differently than any mortal; I don't think you can go back to that after having been immortal. The end of their immortality might just have to be the end of their lives; but I still wonder. Giving Demona a love interest alone speaks volumes on the idea that the end of her immortality might just not be the end of her. On the other hand since her story is part tragedy it is possible that its all set-up for her having a tragic yet redeeming ending.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Saturday, September 21, 2002 10:30:17 AM
IP: 12.88.160.136

Shirt #4:

Surprise, surprise, another black T.

Anyway, at first glance, this one looks very much like #2. Black shirt. Garg logo (full moon with Goliath silhouette over yellow letters). The closed-mouthed version though. No teeth.

But beneath the logo it says:

"World Premiere
September 29, 1994" in white letters.

And on the back it says:
"THE
NIGHT
WILL NEVER
BE THE
SAME"

Which was one of our catch phrases.

These shirts were obviously printed up for our World Premiere down in Florida at Pleasure Island movie theaters at DisneyWorld. So I figure these are a collectors item too.
Greg Weisman
Friday, September 20, 2002 08:05:49 PM
IP: 67.219.78.73

Siryn> I can't, I'm moving next weekend. :( But thanks for the offer.

Aaron> "It's a wrestling catchphrase."
Aha. *backs away slowly*
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Friday, September 20, 2002 07:14:27 PM
IP: 129.21.11.57

AIRWALKER - Greg never actually said anything about the Weird Sisters' spell being removed from Demona and Macbeth. I did find the relevant statement, but I believe that it has a different meaning:

[Demona and Mac's immortality wouldn't last forever, but would last til 2158 at least.]

I think that what this means is more that Demona and Macbeth would have eventually killed each other, but not yet in 2158 (now 2198), rather than that the Weird Sisters' spell would have come to an end.

I wonder if it would even be possible for the Sisters to remove the spell, of course, but we'll probably never know. (And if they did, I'd view it as a cop-out on the part of the production team).

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Friday, September 20, 2002 06:45:31 PM
IP: 63.208.40.218

Bud-Clare> <<Um, that's nice, but I meant what does "what the Rock is cookin'" mean? :P>> It's a wrestling catchphrase. In context, it meant the same as "the coffee." I was just amused that I was automatically following the phrase "wake up and smell" with it.

Airwalker> <<Yeah. But odds are now that most of the public would look at the entire LUPIN III franchise and say "Oh you mean that COWBOY BEBOP ripoff?" :-)>> Sad but true. But Lupin is better then Spike. Lupin wins most of the time.

<<I haven't seen the KENSHIN TV dub so I can't comment but on the dubs I have seen I wouldn't say that they were horrible at producing dubs.>> Ah, but I said Media Blasters did bad *subbing*, not dubbing.

Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
Friday, September 20, 2002 06:26:52 PM
IP: 66.142.70.253

"She's smart; she'd probably find someone or something else to blame if humanity was gone. In fact she could still continue to blame them for everything bad in her life up to the point that they were wiped out; she'd only need another scapegoat for any new misfortunes she brings on herself."

Demona, 3462 A.D.: "It was the APES! Always those damn dirty APES!"

Patrick Toman
Friday, September 20, 2002 05:46:10 PM
IP: 67.38.251.218

Bud-Clare> Next weekend, Jersey, Spirited Away. Its plying at one of the theatre's in my bf's home town so we're making an excuse to see family and the movie, would you like to come too? I asked and Adam said it was okay. ^_^ Lemme know!
Siryn
Friday, September 20, 2002 02:49:16 PM
IP: 129.21.145.6

BUD-CLARE - You wrote: [Plus, he wouldn't know that Demona _wasn't_ the one who wiped out the human race. ;)]

That's a good point. Even in a fictional universe how many beings could there possibly be that are trying to actively wipe out the entire human race?



ROY - You wrote: [Looks like even Snow White hasn't escaped the insanity. *link* While not a sequel, its just as insane.]

I heard about it on CNN. My understanding is that they wanted another CROUCHING TIGER HIDDEN DRAGON film but toned down and with a Disney character. What the hell are they smoking? :-)



AARON - You wrote: [True, but it was still aimed at a post-pubescent demographic, making it more "mature audiences" then most things American and animated.]

True. But then again CGI is a field of animation that seems to be able to buck the trend and be able to have a little more leeway to not be seen as just Children's fare than traditional animation.

You wrote: [The PPG movie? Well, it certainly didn't do as well as they would have liked.]

I heard that it didn't do well at all mainly because of the time that they released it (basically at the same time as every other big movie at the time). I think that it'll do much better overseas and especially when released on DVD. I defintely plan to pick it up.

You wrote: [Which is a shame, because I thought it was better than Spider-man.]

I'd put them at an even level; personally I thought that SPIDER-MAN was very well done although I was unhappy about the ending. (It was a classic SPIDER-MAN ending but then again it was endings like that one that made reading the book such an ordeal for me; the poor bastard can never get a break and when he does he refuses it. Although you have to wonder about MJ's sense in the movie, making her move for Peter in a cemetary and at the funeral of her (still technically) boyfriend's father.)

You wrote: [Ah, but Castle of Cagliostro deserves a theatrical release, don't you agree?]

Yeah. But odds are now that most of the public would look at the entire LUPIN III franchise and say "Oh you mean that COWBOY BEBOP ripoff?" :-)

You wrote: [Ah, doncha love when a license gets split up like that?]

Thats not the entire thing; there are still two LUPIN TV series that haven't been picked up at all. (There were 3 altogether of which PIONEER only has one. And FUNIMATION didn't even get all the movies and specials, just most of them. So the odds are good that the license could get spread out even more if it does well enough to catch the attention of the other anime companies.)

You wrote: [CN should have picked all of them up, and either used the movie to spring-board the series or vice versa]

CN doesn't actually license series directly from Japan; everything they get comes from the American companies that have licensed the series for domestic release. And since they already have a relationship with both FUNIMATION and PIONEER the odds are good that we'll get to see the various LUPIN that they have licenesed on CN eventually. (And this increases the odds that BANDAI as the other company they get anime from might probably pick up the rest of the LUPIN franchise.)

You wrote: [Nah, at heart, it's still a Takahashi romance. It's just set against a landscape populated by demons, samurai, and horny Buddhist monks.]

True; technically its a love triangle (or at least something resembling it up to the point in the manga I've read to) but its a horror love triangle. So I can say I wasn't completely wrong. :-)

And I love the fact that in the Japanese the horny buddist monk is done by the same voice actor as the Irresponsible Captain Tylor; it just makes it funnier. :-)

You wrote: [Or they're white on a light background or black on a dark background.]

I HATE when they do that!

You wrote: [That would be ADV. ADV allegedly stands for Atrociously Dubbed Video.]

Not everything that they've dubbed is horrible; most of it but not all of it. BUBBLEGUM CRISIS 2040 and PRINCESS NINE are pretty good dubs although you can't even begin to compare them with the original Japanese versions. But they are a pretty good dub effort.

You wrote: [As for bad subbing, I've noticed Media Blasters, at least on their Kenshin license, to be very poor.]

I haven't seen the KENSHIN TV dub so I can't comment but on the dubs I have seen I wouldn't say that they were horrible at producing dubs. KUROGANE COMMUNICATION has an solid if not completely to me enjoyable dub.



TODD - You wrote: [Another problem that Demona would have to face if humanity was wiped out (whether by her or not) is that she no longer has a handy whipping-boy to blame for all her misfortunes.]

She's smart; she'd probably find someone or something else to blame if humanity was gone. In fact she could still continue to blame them for everything bad in her life up to the point that they were wiped out; she'd only need another scapegoat for any new misfortunes she brings on herself.

You wrote: [With no humans around to vent her rage and frustration upon, how long will it be before she finds herself finally forced to face the truth, that she was the one most responsible for all her misery?]

It would depend if she were all alone or not. She's been alone for a thousand years and able to easily place all blame on humanity; even with them gone she could easily continue to blame them for everything - even blaming the fact that they are gone for her new troubles.

The only way that I can see her coming to the realization that she bears ultimate responsibility for her actions is with the help of others that she might come to trust and to truly love. (Not like Thailog which was probably just a casual sex thing.) Alone she can continue the way she currently is forever. She has the mindset for it and that can only change by interacting with others on a constant basis; even then its going to be an uphill battle to change her mind since its a thousand years of reenforced behavior to overcome. But alone in a humanless world and shunned by the Gargoyle survivors? She'd find some way to rationalize everything.

You wrote: [It's been often debated over whether Demona's scheme in "Hunter's Moon" would have resulted in her own death (in view of the fact that it might have killed Macbeth, and thus bring about Demona's own death).]

I personally don't think that she was intending to kill Macbeth or that the spell would have "seen" it that way; I think the intention of the spell was a much more personal method of killing than a virus that is intended for Humanity as a whole rather than for him individually.

Besides like I said before, she's probably the most Human of all the Gargoyles in thinking and desire; on top of all that she has a survival instinct that we can't begin to imagine - its been one of her main purposes for the last thousand years. I can't see her throwing her life away so easily right when she would be a step away from having almost everything she ever wanted.

(Besides Greg once made a Moses not entering the Land of Israel analogy that could have described some of her thinking - but the thing is that Moses wanted to enter the land and didn't only because it was explicitly forbidden to him despite his pleading; Jewish legend says that he asked to be turned into a fly just so that he could enter and enjoy the air of the Land of Israel. Demona wanted to live into the new world she was creating; and the spell isn't anywhere near in comparison to a sentient God - so I don't think that the same endgame would occur in her case. Besides I doubt that she'd think of the analogy even subconsciously. I can't see her being friendly to Christianity or Christian Theology after spending the Middle Ages in Christian Europe.)

You wrote: [When you take all of the above into consideration, perhaps her own death in the course of bringing about the extinction of humanity would almost be a blessing in disguise.]

Except that she has this thing about wanting to survive above all (when she doesn't let her temper get the best of her like in SANCTUARY). And she does want to rule as she did mention in HUNTERS MOON 3 as well as other places in the series. Those things tend to work against wanting to die or seeing death as a blessing. Particularly when your about to succeed as she was about to in HUNTERS MOON 3.

I don't think that she'd want to lose her immortality until after Angela dies. Then I think even if she isn't reformed that her survival desire might be weakened and that she'd at the very least be tired of life if not outright wanting to die.


Makes me wonder - before Greg revised the timeline he said that Demona and Macbeth would lose their immortality in the 22nd century. Is that still being maintained in the revised G2198 timeline? And can they lose their immortality that easily? Can the Weird Sisters take the spell off of them unless they specifically want it to be taken off? After all they could only put it on with the consent of the two of them - can they take it off if even one of them resists? And would Demona really want to lose her immortality even in despair considering her survival instinct? And wouldn't it be more interesting if the only true way to get around the immortality they have is for both of them to kill each other rather than have an easy escape in having the spell removed since I don't think that a spell can wear out and needs to either be removed or fufilled?


You wrote: [And certainly if she had survived such a scheme, she'd have the Manhattan clan after her, at least - they certainly wouldn't be hailing her as the savior of the gargoyle race).]

True; but she'd just have to wait a generation or three and by that point anyone who knows her personally would be dead. And she could just show up one day and work her charm against an unsuspecting and inexperienced Gargoyle population. Goliath was always blind to the fact that you can't defeat an immortal, only delay them. All they have to do is wait for you to die. Demona could have sat in that cell in THE RECKONING for 300 years and then gotten up and left to face a world that would have seen her as nothing more than a myth. He could never win in the conventional manner; the fact that she's around and supposed to be unrepentant and still not completely trustworthy in G2198 is just more evidence that all Goliath and company could do is slow her down, not stop her.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Friday, September 20, 2002 10:59:53 AM
IP: 12.88.173.199

AIRWALKER - Another problem that Demona would have to face if humanity was wiped out (whether by her or not) is that she no longer has a handy whipping-boy to blame for all her misfortunes. With no humans around to vent her rage and frustration upon, how long will it be before she finds herself finally forced to face the truth, that she was the one most responsible for all her misery?

It's been often debated over whether Demona's scheme in "Hunter's Moon" would have resulted in her own death (in view of the fact that it might have killed Macbeth, and thus bring about Demona's own death). When you take all of the above into consideration, perhaps her own death in the course of bringing about the extinction of humanity would almost be a blessing in disguise. (And certainly if she had survived such a scheme, she'd have the Manhattan clan after her, at least - they certainly wouldn't be hailing her as the savior of the gargoyle race).
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, September 19, 2002 06:59:24 PM
IP: 63.208.63.81

%@#&!!!!!

Stupid bloody Disney...
clicky:
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Thursday, September 19, 2002 06:53:16 PM
IP: 129.21.11.59

Scary Disney movie> "where she seeks solace with seven Shao Lin monks"
Okay, I _must_ have taken that the wrong way. *L*
(It's Aaron's fault; he mentioned horny monks.)

Aaron> "That's great. Can I use that quote?"
*L* Sure. *snickers* In fact, I dare you.

"<<What the hell is that supposed to mean?>> That Demona needs to realize that she's wasting her life tilting at windmills, and take a nice long vacation. Hiring me as her cabana boy is optional... "
Um, that's nice, but I meant what does "what the Rock is cookin'" mean? :P
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Thursday, September 19, 2002 06:43:24 PM
IP: 129.21.11.59

Roy> <<Didn't know you were a car buff. Whatcha into? Import or domestics? I'm a bike/car nut myself.>> Well, vintage American muscle cars, given a choice. But I pretty much love all cars. I just think they're neat. The automobile, in my opinion, is one of humanity's greatest achievements. <<Snow White>> A long time ago, Eek the Cat did a gag about a movie called Snow White and the Seven Samurai. I guess it wasn't so far fetched after all.

Airwalker> <<SHREK was comedy/drama instead of pure outright drama which is why it didn't come to my mind.>> True, but it was still aimed at a post-pubescent demographic, making it more "mature audiences" then most things American and animated.

<<Didn't that bomb in the US?>> The PPG movie? Well, it certainly didn't do as well as they would have liked. Which is a shame, because I thought it was better than Spider-man.

<<Disney doesn't have the rights to it;>> Thank the powers.

<<MANGA ENTERTAINMENT got the license a while back. That's why its been out on
DVD for so long.>> Ah, but Castle of Cagliostro deserves a theatrical release, don't you agree?

<<And by the way LUPIN III was picked up by PIONEER and FUNIMATION. PIONEER got one of the longer TV series while FUNIMATION picked up a bunch of movies and specials.>> Ah, doncha love when a license gets split up like that? (CN should have picked all of them up, and either used the movie to spring-board the series or vice versa)

<<I think that they decided on INITIAL D mainly based on length.>> Well it certainly seemed interminable...

<<But IY is at heart really a horror story that might not end happily>> Nah, at heart, it's still a Takahashi romance. It's just set against a landscape populated by demons, samurai, and horny Buddhist monks.

<<Bad subtitles generally fall into the category of "they're mistimed">> Or they're white on a light background or black on a dark background.

<< take a look at the dub for the first Rurouni Kenshin/Samurai X OVAs. It was done by a different group than the TV series dub and god, its just horrible.>> That would be ADV. ADV allegedly stands for Atrociously Dubbed Video.

Bud-Clare> <<So... wouldn't you want to be just like him when you grown down? If he's in sixth grade? Or did you mean Xanatos?>> No, I meant Hayama. He's just that damn cool. He's as cool and Machiavellian as Xanatos and he's only eleven years old. Imagine how cool he'll be by the end of the series, when he's eighteen.

<<But they weren't encessarily _good_ fics>> Ah. My condolences then. I sympathize. I've been working on a new MiST almost every night. And this thing is just pure pain, let me tell you.

<<What the hell is that supposed to mean?>> That Demona needs to realize that she's wasting her life tilting at windmills, and take a nice long vacation. Hiring me as her cabana boy is optional...

<<But I never said I'd _kill_ him, see? Just strangle him until he turned a slightly odd color, and then let go. It's a form of communication. :P>> That's great. Can I use that quote?

Taleweaver> <<What factors make a good dub?>> Actual voice actors. Not having the script translated by monkeys helps too. As for bad subbing, I've noticed Media Blasters, at least on their Kenshin license, to be very poor. And a bootleg of Kenshin OVA 5 got a ovation at Ushicon this year when the first line was "This OVA was *not* subtitled by ADV." I've noticed that fansubbing, when done by people who know what they're doing, is often better than commercial subbing.

Blaise> <<Little animation nit though--after our heroes turn to stone, we get a back-shot of Angela, and...she has Demona's hair. A bit distracting.>> Well, she was angry before she turned to stone. And Demona had hair like Angie's before she was redesigned with "angrier hair." So, it's possible for Angela's hair to become Demona like when she's angry. ;) Either that, or she was in the process of going Super Sayan.

Allaine> <<Of course, since anime could be seen as a cheap, legitimate threat to Disney's animation studios, wouldn't it suit them to buy the rights and then purposely kill the movie upon
release?>> You're starting to catch on. ;) <<Btw, just rented "Princess Mononoke" last night and am planning to watch it later today :D>> Prepare to be amazed.

Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
Thursday, September 19, 2002 06:12:20 PM
IP: 66.142.70.253

Product plug: "Kingdom Hearts" PS2 game. Square meets Disney. Official release was yesterday.

And speaking of weird Disney ventures, I thought Eisner was losing it from making cheesy sequels to Disney classics. Looks like even Snow White hasn't escaped the insanity. *link* While not a sequel, its just as insane.
Roy Sato - [<--Snow White and the Seven Shao Lin]
Thursday, September 19, 2002 05:38:31 PM
IP: 168.215.231.54

Blaise> "I recognized that it was a Superman reference, but still...I'm sorry, Greg, it just doesn't do it for me."
*snickers* Hey, people who talk to themselves at cafes tend to also have an odd sense of humor... ;)

Airwalker> "or just spend her time keeping away from Macbeth who'd probably head into the entirely suicidal realm of thinking considering he'd be the last Human alive."
Plus, he wouldn't know that Demona _wasn't_ the one who wiped out the human race. ;)

Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Thursday, September 19, 2002 02:45:12 PM
IP: 129.21.12.36

Shirt #2.5

Last night at the Dodger game, I wore the black gargoyles sweatshirt that I got at this year's Gathering, thanks to Toon Disney and the hard work of the G2002 staff. (Thanks again, guys.) It has the closed-mouth gargoyle logo (Full moon rising over "Gargoyles" with Goliath crouching there). And a hood. Very comfy sweatshirt.

And no, Jen, I'm not bored. I'm swamped actually. This dopey little exercise is called "blowing off a bit of steam."

Anyway, shirt #3...

I'm attempting, the best my memory will allow, to wear these shirts in chronological order. Today's shirt is purple and shows a wide-eyed little boy in a striped white and yellow shirt, red short pants and blue and white tennis shoes. He's wearing mickey mouse ears and holding a bright red Mickey Mouse balloon. He's looking up, somewhat freaked, for a large black shadow looms over him, that's fairly easy to identify as Goliath. Beneath these two are the words, "They're coming."

On the back, "GARGOYLES" and "Fall 1994".

This image was drawn by Paul Felix, one of our development artists on the team. It was just a doodle, really, to amuse himself. But I saw it in his office and thought it was great. I showed it to my boss and HE thought it was great. This represented all that we were scared that upper management would be scared of. And poked fun at it. So we put the image into our card pitch, the one we used to sell the show, the one that many of you have been to a Gathering has seen on one of the tapes I bring each year.

Later, after the show was sold, we got these shirts, but they weren't for sale. They were only for the team. So they're truly a collector's item.
Greg Weisman
Thursday, September 19, 2002 02:38:50 PM
IP: 67.224.11.97

TALEWEAVER - You wrote: [What factors make a good dub?]

A good dub is generally judged by how accurate it is to what the characters were originally saying and how well the dub voice actor captures the feeling and emotion of the character.

Now how accurate it is has some leeway since the dub is made to fit the mouth movements of the characters plus you want a translation that flows well; in general it doesn't have to be a 100 percent word for word translation of the original dialogue but should be capturing what the original dialogue was trying to convey.

As for the dub voice actor, generally he or she is judged by how well he or she plays his or her role. A lot of early dubs were just the actors sounding like they were reading the lines out loud for no particular reason. How well the voice actor can bring across the established personality of the character is important. (Sometimes the actor besides being able to actually act can also sound very close to the original voice for the character; this can be good but in my opinion its not 100 percent necessary. Its nice if it happens but its better to get a dub recording that can bring the character across even if it doesn't sound the same as the original version.)

Compare the Japanese version of Ryoko in TENCHI MUYO with th dub version or compare the Japanese version of Excel in EXCEL SAGA with the dub version for examples of good dubs following what I just said above.

You wrote: [I've heard a lot of complaints about dubbing, but next to none about possible bad subtitles.]

Bad subtitles generally fall into the category of "they're mistimed" in which case the fans call on the studio to either recall or remaster the product or "they're dubtitles" in which case the fans demand the same thing but with less success than they might have with the first scenario. Dubtitles don't exactly happen that often anymore so there is less to complain about.

You wrote: [I always ran on the assumption that something was lost in the translation like something that would make the story come together]

Not always. Dubs have come a long way since the age of edited crap in the 80's and early 90's. There are plenty of well dubbed series out there despite what most of my college anime club had to say. (That's not to say that horrible dubs still aren't done - take a look at the dub for the first Rurouni Kenshin/Samurai X OVAs. It was done by a different group than the TV series dub and god, its just horrible. And this is coming from someone who doesn't mind watching a good dub.)

You wrote: [after trudging through DBZ and scratching my head over Gundam Wing, both sub and dub, I find that I'm not missing anything.]

GUNDAM WING and recent DBZ don't have the problems that earlier releases had. Take a look at the scripting problems with early dubbed DBZ for example. Remember the Home for Infinite Losers? Or all those people who got sent to another dimension? It was stuff like this that gave dubs such a bad reputation. Dubs came to be seen as the place where the original series was butchered horribly for local consumption. Thats one of the reasons that the TENCHI MUYO and EL HAZARD dubs was a bit revolutionary at the time - they were surpisingly good dubs in a time when most dubs were crap and most series were edited beyond belief.



TODD - You wrote: [I found myself speculating over the possibility that New Olympian gargoyles might look similar to the London gargoyles (at least like Leo - but unicorns and griffons appear in classical writings, so gargoyles looking like Una and Griff in ancient Greece and Rome would be plausible as well).]

Its possible although I don't think that they would be limited to just Londonish Gargoyles. They did take in a lot of Gargoyle refugees before they left for New Olympus according to Greg.

Although on second though it might be more possible that they are more uniformly like the London Trio at the very least - it depends on the other Gargoyles that they took in to form their clan. I wonder if Gargoyles more like the Manhattan, Japanese, and Guatemalan Clans were heavily represented in the Mediteranean region or not? After all consider Egypt for example - the ancient gods of that region sound sort of similar to Londonish Gargoyles. And ancient legend tends to lean in that direction in the region; a lot of myth that could be taken for forgotten Gargoyle sightings. There could be more uniformity than we might thing. (And of course any other types of Gargoyles could have been assimilated into a more Londonish look over time.)

It would also depend on how widespread they were in gathering refugees. If they limited themselves to just the ancient world of the eastern Mediteranean then the Clan on New Olympus would have been mainly made up of Gargoyles from Greece and Egypt only. It would have been difficult to gather Gargoyles from further away like Italy (which anyway would have been considered a frontier and the edge of the world in the distant past, although it depends how far in the past we are talking about) and I doubt that the Fertile Cresent region had that many Gargoyles inhabiting it by the time the New Olympians would have been gathering Gargoyles to build a new clan with, if it had that many Gargoyles at all to begin with.

You wrote: [Of course, unless the "New Olympians" spin-off gets made, we're not likely to find out if that is indeed the case or not.]

I wonder about that - isn't the New Olympian Clan even more isolationist than the rest of the New Olympians? And didn't Greg mention something to the extent that even by 2198 they wouldn't have been likely to reveal themselves. So odds are that even with a New Olympian spinoff we wouldn't have seen that much of the New Olympian Gargoyles; its possible that we wouldn't have gotten much more than just Boreas mentioning that they exist on the island and want to be left alone. (Although I think that if the New Olympians did reveal themselves it would make the case against Gargoyles harder to press; not only that but the New Olympians might also have something to say on the matter which would change the entire balance on the issue.)

You wrote: [Suppose that, in the Gargoyles Universe, somebody succeeded somehow in wiping out humanity, but that somebody wasn't Demona (or even a gargoyle, for that matter). How would Demona respond to that event?]

Happiness at first mingled with a little disappointment over the fact that it wasn't her who did it. I think that the disappearance of Humanity would cancel out whatever feelings she might have about having wasted her life in the short term. The question is what she would do after the first 6 months without Humanity. She is probably one of the most Human of all the Gargoyles (wanting power, hording treasure, and she seemed much more concerned with biology when dealing with Angela then Goliath ever did); what would she do without them?

I think that after about 6 months to a year she'd be bored out of her mind; either she'd try to find a new hobby (like trying to take over the leadership of the world Gargoyle Population which would put her in the generic villain category in the new world or she could try something constructive like trying to repopulate the empty earth with Gargoyles - its possible that with the object of her hate gone that she might become more pragmatic and constructive in her worldview; forced to do so by boredom and immortality) or just spend her time keeping away from Macbeth who'd probably head into the entirely suicidal realm of thinking considering he'd be the last Human alive.



MATT - You wrote: [besides Greek and Roman gargs, i can see Egyptian gargs too and possibly others. so there is likely a wide range of looks among their clan.]

I don't know about that; logically would there have been that many Gargoyles in the region? Greece and Egypt would have had Clans as there is evidence in those regions that suggest that (God legends in both areas as well as the Sphinx in Egypt suggest that there were Gargoyles there) but would they have been as widespread in the Mediteranean world as we might imagine?

I doubt that the area between Babylon to the Holy Land would have had any Clan living there outside of the distant, distant past. The area was much too volatile, constantly being crossed by armies and filled with war and rebellion. I don't think a Clan in that area would survive very long. And further west I'm not so sure that there would have been a huge Gargoyle presence. Obviously we know that there was at least one Gargoyle in the area of Rome for the Clothing spell to be cast but at the same time I got the impression from the first version of that story (way back when) that the single Gargoyle was taken to be a shocking rarity and that Caesar Augustus was not interested in having more than one or two of them around. I think that its more likely that the Gargoyles in the region were most likely out of Greece and Egypt with maybe a smattering from the area of Carthage/North Africa. I don't think that there was a multitude of Clans in the Mediteranean basin and that Gargoyle populations thinned out the further west in Europe you went. That would give more significance to the existance of Clans in the far north since it would suggest isolated communities of a race that wasn't doing to well in competition with Humanity rather than them thriving everywhere and then disappearing suddenly.



ALLIANE - You wrote: [Then you'd have a Mojo Jojo-like reaction - "No! That was my idea!" ("Forced Kin")]

That episode was just on a few days ago. Demona reacting exactly like MojoJojo did would be hillarious! :-)

You wrote: [Of course, since anime could be seen as a cheap, legitimate threat to Disney's animation studios, wouldn't it suit them to buy the rights and then purposely kill the movie upon release?]

Yes; but on the other hand they could purchase it and then milk it for all its worth in the domestic market to a new older audience while still targeting their traditional animation products at the same single audience they always do.

(USA Today had an article about Disney and SPIRITED AWAY; according to that they basically have lowered expectations on it and mainly are hoping to get the college and anime crowd in to watch it; they aren't trying to get this film out to a wide audience but only to those who already watch anime.)

You wrote: [Btw, just rented "Princess Mononoke" last night and am planning to watch it later today :D]

My advice is to watch it subbed first. The dub is pretty good but this is really a series that cries out to be seen in its original language first. Watch it dubbed immediately after seeing it subtitled and you'll have a deeper appreiciation for the well done dub version too. (Of course if you can't wait to hear Keith David though then just ignore everything I just said. :-) )

You wrote: [And TENCHI MUYO remains my all-time favorite, in part also because Ryoko is my favorite anime character.]

Me too! It has an good story, an interesting cast (Ryoko is my favorite character in the series) and an extremely well done dub. I hope that they can get the dub cast back for the 3rd OVA.

You wrote: [Just finished Vol. 12 in the manga, and I can't wait for the new series :))]

The new manga series already has a few parts out in English but the first collected volume of the SHIN TENCHI MUYO manga won't be out for a while. Its basically more of the same from the original manga - only in Japan it switched magazines it was in so it got itself a "new" title.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Thursday, September 19, 2002 12:24:56 PM
IP: 12.88.87.124

Sorry I haven't posted in a while. School work and more school work. I already have an idea of what to write for my Non fiction workshop papers. The short one will be about my flight to the gathering and my second would be about the gathering.


Greg]----"This is dumb." Nothing you do is dumb. "I'm going to attempt to wear all my gargoyles (and gargoyles-related) t-shirts on consecutive days. Let's see how long it'll last." Cool I only have The One shirt, and I gave that to my dad. "So we toned it down." Dang <<<AFTER this shirt was printed, but before the shirts to come.>>> Double Dang I would love to have one of the original shirts like that.

Todd]---""Holy Terrors: Gargoyles on Medieval Buildings" by Janetta Rebold Benton."
Thanks I'm going to try to find it.

Jimmy]---"I'm going to Chicago today to start college."
Well good luck and have a good semester.

Jim R]---"So what's up next for DCV? I have a feeling it's M.I.A."

I believe you are correct.

Lady Baltimore]---"Ah, wouldn't everyone . . "

Yes but I would use the money for good.

Jurgan]----"Before you point out the twig in your brother's eye, look at the log in your own." Good point. This guys has some issues.

Spacebabie - [LadyAndromeda@smstars.zzn.com]
Orlando, Florida, U.S.A
Thursday, September 19, 2002 11:34:18 AM
IP: 64.156.211.51

Todd > "Demona as non-destroyer of humanity" - She'd certainly be happy that they were all gone, but I think she'd also be angry because she spent a thousand years pursuing that goal, and all for nothing because someone else beat her to it. Also, what if the humans were wiped out by something Demona had thought of but never implemented? Then you'd have a Mojo Jojo-like reaction - "No! That was my idea!" ("Forced Kin")

Spirited Away > My only inkling of this movie's release, other than the discussion here, was a single movie poster I saw in my local movie theater. Of course, since anime could be seen as a cheap, legitimate threat to Disney's animation studios, wouldn't it suit them to buy the rights and then purposely kill the movie upon release?

Btw, just rented "Princess Mononoke" last night and am planning to watch it later today :D

As for CN's other anime, BEBOP is a great series and I enjoyed the Vicious/Spike/Julia storyline, but my favorite episode is still "Pierrot Le Fou". INUYASHA looks like it will fill the void left when I see the last BEBOP. DBZ - I never even liked the animation. Ug-ly. And TENCHI MUYO remains my all-time favorite, in part also because Ryoko is my favorite anime character. Just finished Vol. 12 in the manga, and I can't wait for the new series :))

Sincerely, Allaine

P.S. MONSTERS INC. dvd is finally out. Yippee!
Allaine - [eac2nd@yahoo.com]
Philadelphia, PA
Thursday, September 19, 2002 09:21:20 AM
IP: 152.163.189.68

Here's an odd little creativity demon (and a slightly warped one, I'll admit):

Suppose that, in the Gargoyles Universe, somebody succeeded somehow in wiping out humanity, but that somebody wasn't Demona (or even a gargoyle, for that matter). How would Demona respond to that event? Would she be please that all the humans were gone, or angry because she'd been cheated of her revenge? Or maybe a mixture of both?
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, September 19, 2002 07:18:17 AM
IP: 65.56.173.13

Question -

Who got the Team Atlantis Script and other stuff at the last Gathering Auction? I missed the first part of the Auction and didn't get to bid or see who won. If anyone knows, could you clue me in?

I also missed the Radio Play, which bummed me out as I was really looking forward to it, but lack of sleep caught up with me just before it started and I had to bail. Is there a tape of the radio play show for this year? If so, is there a way I can get a copy?

Much Thanks for any and all help.

Mooncat
Mooncat
Thursday, September 19, 2002 03:48:08 AM
IP: 68.102.23.36

****A flurry of lightning bolts strike a spot in the center of the Comment Room. A flash of red flames in that area gives way to a glowing red mist. The mist gently dissipates as Blaise fades into view.**** After two and a half weeks I'm back! And with an internet connection from home no less. It's taken me a couple hours to catch up on the comments...and unfortunately a lot of them are beyond my knowledge at this moment. But I can catch up with the DCV (even if I watched it over a week ago).

TO ALL OLD FACES> Welcome back!

PHIL> Congrats on the new addition!

DCV: SANCTUARY> Naturally, Notre Dame had to be brought into this series *sometime* (especially once they started the world tour).
I don't know who I figured the "winged sillhouette" (sp?) at the beginning to be, but I think I may have suspected Demona, because she struck me as the most well-traveled gargoyle I could think of.
Then we see Macbeth with a babe who sports a heavy French accent. It wasn't until she said "we have all the time in the world" (accompanied by a not-too-subtle music sting) that I recognized her (by voice anyway). I knew I was in for a good ep.
And Elisa pretty much admits her romantic view of Goliath. I find it interesting how she so naturally moves from talking to herself to talking to the "snoozing" crew. And of course we have yet another "D'oh" moment when Elisa starts to call her parents...and stops to follow Demona and Macbeth.
Pointless note--I like D & M's costumes here. Very nice.
Elisa eventually makes her way back to the others with the paper and they're off and running after the plot.
Something I'd point out here, Angela never says that Katharine or Tom told her about Notre Dame, yet I've seen several people make that assumption. As far as I can tell, Angela didn't hear about it until Elisa mentioned it.
I believe, when I first saw this, I took Goliath's rebuking Angela for calling him father as him preserving tradition--even though he pretty much states he's concerned about keeping Angela away from Demona the next minute. Gradually, I began to see that this was mostly just his excuse. Unfortunately, in doing that, he was actually pushing her away.
I love Elisa's shocked "What?!" to being put in the role of "helpless damsel who needs protection." Goliath didn't even ask her (or wait to hear what Elisa had to say after "I can sympathize, but--"). He just did it. Yet, Elisa goes along with it. She can barely look Angela in the eye when she says it.
Every time I see Goliath clawing the wall of Notre Dame I cringe. Have some respect for historic sites, will ya?!
I only really noticed Demona's line "In here, my love" the second time I watched it. I think the first time, her actual reaction upon seeing Goliath pushed it out of my mind. I like her line "New York is your protectorate--Paris belongs to me!" This is especially fun in hindsight, because, as we learn later in HUNTER'S MOON (and the unanimated TEAM ATLANTIS episode THE LAST) she has quite a history with this city.
There is some weird animation here. At one point, Demona sends Goliath hutling through the tower and he knocks the head off a stone gargoyle next to Bronx--but there's no sound! I recall that some folks assumed said gargoyle to be Boudicca ducking (probably because of its coloring) before they slowed down the tape. Also, when Demona says "You're not leaving here alive" she seems a bit skinnier than usual (and her halter-top seems to be a bit more...[ahem] revealing).
Enter Thailog. In new threads too! I don't know when/where/how he got that armor, but it does end up making him look even more distinctive from Goliath. And, as per the memo, gives him a little more of a Xanatos quality. And reintroducing him as Demona's love interest! It was a twist but felt so natural at the same time!
Thailog is great here, and Demona's taunting of Goliath is really...something, I don't know. All I know is it's aggravating enough to make me want to strangle her (and that's with the knowledge that I'd be dead within .2 seconds). And Goliath's actions here are endlessly fascinating. He accuses Demona, and tries to save Thailog. I have to wonder at his thoughts about his "son" getting together with his ex. I love Thailog's offering "to share [his] santuary" with Goliath--that is SOOOO Xanatos. And of course Goliath brings up the obvious objection, which Demona taunts him for (honestly, who wouldn't be a little paranoid around that woman?).
Angela, being the good little helper she is, and still eager to stay close with her father, has run to what was supposed to be a battle, and finds herself eavesdropping. I wonder if maybe she regretted having done that once she got back to the skiff. It almost looks that way.
It wasn't until my second viewing that I caught the name of D & T's company--Nightstone Unlimited. Very nice indeed. And we finally hear the human aliases of these two plotters. BTW, much happier that you went with Dominique Destine (sp?) over Dierdre (sp? again). I like their embrace--Thailog's wrapping his wings completely around her, Demona snuggling into his chest when they share a villainous laugh. This is one of the steamiest scenes in the series, I think. You always said, Greg, that although Thailog intended to betray Demona from the beginning, he still found her physically attractive. I'll bet he had his kicks while he had her around.
Anyway, it made sense that Demona had hoarded treasure. How much money does she have anyway?
Meanwhile, Goliath and Angela get into another "family discussion." As someone else has pointed out, Goliath really seems to get angry here...and Angela matches his outrage. Little animation nit though--after our heroes turn to stone, we get a back-shot of Angela, and...she has Demona's hair. A bit distracting.
Elisa talking to herself in the cafe was alright--she has a long established habit of doing this. As for her last line...I recognized that it was a Superman reference (and I probably would have appreciated it more had I known that Cary Bates wrote for that comic way back when), but still...I'm sorry, Greg, it just doesn't do it for me. I do appreciate the referencing behind it, though.
The wedding. Demona really looks good in that wedding dress--and it's a testament to her acting that she looks more comfortable in that than Banquo and Fleance do in their respective outfits. Seriously, those two look so out of place in such fancy clothes--I bet they were happy to be out of them.
I feel real sorry for Macbeth in this episode. He marries this woman, starts to tell her about himself, and it turns out that his "bride" has been his enemy all along. His shock is excellent, and I can only imagine what his initial thoughts were upon coming to in his cell.
I love the animation on Demona's transformation. Very nice, and we see her without her tiara for once.
I also like Macbeth's "Who the blazes are you?!" when he sees Thailog. I wonder what he might have thought about this gargoyle that sounded like Goliath and shared a remarkable number of physical features.
Then Thailog hands Macbeth a gun...and I am left totally clueless. I admit it, I didn't fully grasp Thailog's plan until he spelled it out. Maybe I'm slow, or maybe by this point I just wanted to watch the story unfold. But Thailog is excellent at diverting suspicion from himself. And I love his little "Have a blast, you two" followed by his laugh.
And then he leers at Angela. I partially agree with Airwalker that this might in some part be to creep Goliath out, but I also find it more interesting (and preferable) that Thailog did feel some bit of lust upon seeing her. It just darkens his character more and, IMO, adds a whole lot more fun to him. I don't know why, but I love how Thailog holds Angela by her belt, too.
Thailog reveals the truth, and NOW is, in my mind, when Goliath views Thailog as a true enemy instead of a lost soul. And the amazing thing is, for having so little battle experience, Thailog holds up pretty well. Mostly because of his particle-beam rifle, but that of course also gets him into trouble with the water tower. All that "vast knowledge" and he doesn't try to run when the tower starts to creak--he *is* inexperienced. I also like Goliath's double-fisted punch to Thailog, and Thailog's fall (accompanied with EXCELLENT music thanks to Carl Johnson). Then Thailog gets up and attacks Goliath full force, and it's only through the intervention of Angela and Bronx that G is able to get the upper hand. Seriously, they have Thailog cornered, and only stop when they realise that the battle INSIDE the building has stopped. Thailog is such a cool bastard as he smilingly says "I enjoyed the exercise, Goliath" and soars off the rooftop.
While all of this has been going on, Demona and Macbeth have been having a pretty good scuffle. The highlights for me include that three barralled particle cannon, the bit with the globe (one person gets bowled over by the globe, the other by...NOTHING!), and Demona's oft-mentioned stagger (seriously, how often do you get to see a character "punch drunk" like that?). Then Elisa hits on the solution both I and my brother (who had been watching this with me) figured right away. I like her uncertainty, though--it is a bit of a difficult concept to swallow.
Goliath and Macbeth, who had started out this series as enemies, now are almost like comrades. Similar experience probably paves the way for this, but it really is nice to see the hero show genuine sympathy for a former foe, and for said foe to accept it. And hey, Goliath tells a pretty good joke and even gets Macbeth to smile!
Of course, there is another moment between Elisa and Goliath, fleeting, but still wonderful.
Demona gets her first glimpse of Angela, and her reaction is just right. Of course, before the matter gets pressed, Thailog reappears. He salvages the situation for himself wonderfully (and it's so odd to see Demona being carried off like that...one isn't used to seeing her in such a vulnerable position). And both Macbeth and Goliath have, again, a moment of shared regret.
The episode wraps up with a somber ride into the mists, as Angela seeks the final confirmation for her question. Since Goliath won't answer (won't even look at her, it's too painful), she turns to Elisa, who pretty much admits the presence of the elephant in the room, allowing Angela to cope with that knowledge as best she can.
In case you can't tell, I think this is a great episode--and there's so much in it! Not the least of which is Thailog. I knew from his first episode he'd be someone to watch out for, but this episode cemented him as one of my favorite villains, and led to my brother dubbing him "evil incarnate in GARGOYLES."

I've rambled enough for tonight, but expect me to be popping in more often now that I have home access. Now I'll truly be back when I have something to say, instead of having to wait for time on the weekends. Until then, farewell. ****Blaise lengthens into a red beam of light that slowly dims into nothingness.****
Blaise
Thursday, September 19, 2002 12:29:19 AM
IP: 209.178.155.164

Actually, I forgot to mention what bothered me most about that post. That being that you posted it to the entire group. If you have a problem with something some specific members did, take it up with them. Don't do this to the whole group. It sounds like you're saying that there's a problem with everybody, not just a personal grudge with a handful. It absolutely drives me crazy when people show up and yell about things in this way. The only reason for it is if you're trying to cause trouble. I don't know if this board has had problems with this sort of spam before, but I've seen boards on many occasions degenerate into flame wars over rabble-rousing like yours. Please think before you go off on a tirade and make everyone here party to it.
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
Thursday, September 19, 2002 12:06:02 AM
IP: 199.79.250.254

"Hello all! Remember me?"

Nope, can't say I do. I only started coming here a couple months ago.

"Well incase you forgot, in May I was trying to organize a petition to bring Gargoyles back on the air. I was planning to post it in time for The Gathering but the plan for the petition fell through. The reason it fell through was because I was met with arrogance and cruelty. I was taunted and even INSULTED by one of your chat room members, Hudson. These jestures made me feel very bad as my efforts to try to bring back the show was replied with negativity and ill manneredness."

So, someone on the internet was mean to you, and so you gave up on this whole idea? Sounds like your convictions weren't very strong to begin with. It seems to me that if you were serious about this, then a few rude remarks wouldn't so easily dissuade you.

"For the few that supported me, I thank you. I ask that everyone in this site and every other Gargoyles site, forum, fan club, and viewer to buy the DVD Series set that will be coming out next year.If a striking number of people buy the DVD's, this will give Disney the impression that Gargoyles can still make money and is worth bringing it back with new episodes. Let's try and take this one step at a time."

Good idea. It sounds like you were jumping the gun, though. How many people do you think would have signed this petition? It'd probably take thousands for a mega-company like Disney to even take notice. Now, the fact that they have noticed The Gathering is a little different, because that involves hundreds of people paying money to travel long distances for years in a row. Signing an online petition is considerably less impressive.

"To all those who spat at my efforts and did their best to shot me down I say, this is the internet. It is not that serious."

I'm sensing a contradiction here. You say "this is the internet. It is not serious." Yet you were planning on organizing something to make a major change over the internet.

"Maybe if you had a life instead of wasting your time online everyday, you could find yourselves some dates instead of offending people on forums and chat rooms."

You're right, it is a shame when people waste their time on the internet just to insult others. Honestly, this attitude drives me crazy. If someone has a serious argument over the internet, that means they have no life? How do you figure? Are you not arguing and flaming over the internet right now? Before you point out the twig in your brother's eye, look at the log in your own.
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
Wednesday, September 18, 2002 11:38:27 PM
IP: 199.79.250.254

Todd> well Greg said that the New Olympus gargoyles were not only from Greece and Rome, but from other Mediterranean locations as well. my guess is that in 1996, the new Olympus Clan is the most (and probably the only) racially diverse gargoyle clan. besides Greek and Roman gargs, i can see Egyptian gargs too and possibly others. so there is likely a wide range of looks among their clan.
matt
Wednesday, September 18, 2002 11:30:56 PM
IP: 216.178.8.101

Bored much, Greg darling? ;)
Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson
Wednesday, September 18, 2002 10:01:31 PM
IP: 216.249.96.150

Something that I forgot to mention, in my report on "Holy Terrors" yesterday; it said that there were "gargoyle-like sculptures" in ancient Greece and Rome shaped like lions. From that, I found myself speculating over the possibility that New Olympian gargoyles might look similar to the London gargoyles (at least like Leo - but unicorns and griffons appear in classical writings, so gargoyles looking like Una and Griff in ancient Greece and Rome would be plausible as well). Of course, unless the "New Olympians" spin-off gets made, we're not likely to find out if that is indeed the case or not.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, September 18, 2002 06:58:19 PM
IP: 67.28.89.235

Hello all! Remember me? Well incase you forgot, in May I was trying to organize a petition to bring Gargoyles back on the air. I was planning to post it in time for The Gathering but the plan for the petition fell through. The reason it fell through was because I was met with arrogance and cruelty. I was taunted and even INSULTED by one of your chat room members, Hudson. These jestures made me feel very bad as my efforts to try to bring back the show was replied with negativity and ill manneredness. For the few that supported me, I thank you. I ask that everyone in this site and every other Gargoyles site, forum, fan club, and viewer to buy the DVD Series set that will be coming out next year.If a striking number of people buy the DVD's, this will give Disney the impression that Gargoyles can still make money and is worth bringing it back with new episodes. Let's try and take this one step at a time. To all those who spat at my efforts and did their best to shot me down I say, this is the internet. It is not that serious. Maybe if you had a life instead of wasting your time online everyday, you could find yourselves some dates instead of offending people on forums and chat rooms. Take care all. I'll post something else soon.
Mark
Brooklyn, New York, USA
Wednesday, September 18, 2002 05:34:37 PM
IP: 205.188.208.9

T-Shirt #2

Black cotton T.

The gargoyles logo, or so it first appears.

The full moon rising over the word "GARGOYLES" in yellow. With the silhouette of Goliath in front of the moon.

But look carefully...

Goliath's mouth is open, showing his teeth. If you look at the garg logo, you're probably most familiar with, his mouth is closed.

That's cuz my boss Gary was nervous tht he looked too demonic in the original superior version of the logo. So we toned it down. Obviously, AFTER this shirt was printed, but before the shirts to come.
Greg Weisman
Wednesday, September 18, 2002 04:34:29 PM
IP: 67.219.22.88

Hello all,

My apologies about the Vicious remark earlier. Just a lot of chatter and hard to find the beginning of a conversation thread.

DCV "MIA"> I don't know if this is where we are at. I'll just put in that I loved the aerial combat scenes. It's in the top ten aerials along with Hunter's Moon and Awakening. I'll add more Friday.

Anime> I have a question. What factors make a good dub? I've heard a lot of complaints about dubbing, but next to none about possible bad subtitles. Is it voice work? Translation? I like that you can get both on DVDs, but I always ran on the assumption that something was lost in the translation like something that would make the story come together, but after trudging through DBZ and scratching my head over Gundam Wing, both sub and dub, I find that I'm not missing anything.

FF> It isn't on my top ten lists, but I did come away with two things from the movie. At the end, it did make ponder how to have flawed heroes and villains on the same stage. Aki could have been intriguing if she wasn't infallible. I've seen it in lots of stories, if the good guys have a hunch or a theory, it is 100% feasible. It's very cliche and very predictable. Some validity in James Woods character would have gone a long way as well.

The second thing was awareness of visual storytelling. One thing I love about the games is the attention to detail. The world the story takes place in has a supporting character role. Not just greasepaint and lighting, the setting adds a dimension to the action. Like when the troopers land in the aersol pillow. I started noticing that in a lot of films like prequels of Star Wars and Minority Report. But I can't argue with what others posters said, a compelling plotted story is a must, visuals can't carry the whole thing yet. thought if anyone has seen Walking with Dinosaurs or Walking with Prehistoric Beast, sometimes a plotted story doesn't need to be out in front.

Well, I'll see you all Friday. Be well and be safe.
Taleweaver - [loremaster27@hotmail.com]
Wednesday, September 18, 2002 04:20:20 PM
IP: 24.205.119.135

Spirited Away> They're driving me crazy... The online movie listings that I keep checking to see if it's going to be playing here are still only up to Thursday. I have to wait another day, and that's assuming that whatever tiny theater _might_ be playing it is even listed... Must strangle Disney...

Jim R.> "And I have one thing to say: I hate MFC."
Really? Why? I don't remember having too many problems with it (until my final project, which I put off until the last minute, naturally ;). Of course, that was several years ago, so I could have blanked it out. And we probably didn't have to do any of the really _evil_ stuff...
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Wednesday, September 18, 2002 02:02:56 PM
IP: 129.21.12.38

JURGAN - You wrote: [Grave of the Fireflies was not Miyazaki. It was a Studio Ghibli production, but it was directed by Isao Takahata.]

My mistake. But Ebert still gave both movies a thumbs up so I can still say I was sorta right. :-) :-)



JIM R - You wrote: [Been watching the new episodes on Toonami? It has the tendency to go somewhere, but still more of the same like Jimmy said]

I've been watching; So far since the previous fight ended they have now restarted the endless cycle and are currently in buildup mode for the next battle. The circle of life continues. :-)

But at least the buildup episodes tend to be a bit interesting - thats when whatever characterization the series has shows up while they look for the Dragonballs to cancel out the effects of the last battle and really have everything start over again. (I'm personally sorry that the GREAT SAIYAMAN Arc didn't get more time; it was an interesting Superman parody that they had going on and it could have used at least if not some more screentime then at least more development in the epilogue section i.e the point after Videl found out Gohan's identity but before it turned into yet another endless Saiyan fight.)

You wrote: [I actually find it the most interesting show on Adult Swim now.]

INU YASHA is pretty good. I've seen all of YYH but I've only seen the first fifteen or so episodes of IY so I have a bit more interest in watching it.

You wrote: [Even the dialogue isn't that bad (despite most say the subtitled version with Japanese dub is better).]

The dub isn't horrible which is what I think most people were thinking it was going to be since it is a VIZ release. I don't mind it (and it is a good effort - Inu Yasha and Kagome are pretty well done) but I still think that the Japanese version is stronger.

You wrote: [And if you pay attention closely, you can point out some similiarities it has to Gargoyles.]

Some similarities. But IY is at heart really a horror story that might not end happily (if it ends at all - this is a Takahashi series we're dealing with after all); and I'm a bit suprised at some of the stuff they left in. I was sure that of the first 3 episodes that only five minutes would be able to make it to the air in the US.

You wrote: [I actually might buy this series on DVD should they release an English dubbed version.]

The DVD release is going to be bilingual; so you'll get the unedited English dub AND the Japanese version too. I'll pick up the DVD when it comes out but its only 3 episodes per DVD and this series is 80+ episodes in Japan and still going; its going to take forever to be released over here.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Wednesday, September 18, 2002 12:45:40 PM
IP: 12.88.92.226

Xanatos FAQ> I would, however, like to have his apparently limitless financial resources!

Ah, wouldn't everyone . . . although I doubt the likelihood of this Xanatos getting signed into the will or whathaveyou. Alas, more's the pity, I suppose.

Come to think of it . . . what IS Xanatos' middle name??
Lady Baltimore
MD, USA
Wednesday, September 18, 2002 12:40:18 PM
IP: 199.183.161.38

An excerpt from the Xanatos FAQ:

-----------------------------------------
Q. Did you know there's a cartoon with a character named Xanatos?

A. I do now, but until I did a search of my name back when I first went online with my business, I didn't, and it was quite a surprise! My full name is David Julian Xanatos, and I am not affiliated in any way with the fine cartoon creation of Disney™. I would, however, like to have his apparently limitless financial resources!
----------------------------------------------------------


Jimmy
Wednesday, September 18, 2002 11:55:15 AM
IP: 172.137.113.36

Sorry for double posting, but I thought I'd share this. Click my name. Go to the very bottom of the page and look at the caption under the picture beside December 7, 2001. Xanatos must have shaved. Heh.
Jim R.
Wednesday, September 18, 2002 10:27:11 AM
IP: 65.173.84.75

Been extremely busy writing code...lots and lots of code. And I have one thing to say: I hate MFC. Not that most in here care or know what I'm talking about...

So, catching up after lots of reading:

Todd> I think I've seen that book before. I looked it up on Amazon.com (click my name) and discovered from looking at the cover that I had, but just never bothered to look inside. The copyright is 1997. I wonder how many other gargoyles books out there make reference to our beloved cartoon series?

Greg W.> There's nothing dumb about that. Perhaps I say that only because everyone thinks it's cool in a Gargoyles appreciation forum anyways. :)

---ANIME RELATED---

In regards to the anime discussion which was going on last week and still some this week, my few cents:

FF> It was...OK. Like Roy said, when they chose to write something that wasn't related to the games (for something more original) many FF gamers bitched about it, including my one friend who is a hardcore FF gamer. He still refuses to buy the DVD because he still sees it as downright awful. It's understandable that Sqaure wanted to reach out to a more broader audience with the movie, and not just to FF gamers, because not everyone is an anime fan or gamer. Still, one wonders how much better or worse it would been had they written the movie more like something the gamers prefered. It's hard to tell, but it will always be remembered for the niche it created in animation/CGI.

DBZ> Been watching the new episodes on Toonami? It has the tendency to go somewhere, but still more of the same like Jimmy said, everyone powering up to fight each other, and then becoming even more powerful. It gets very monotonous.

Inu Yasha> AirWalker mentioned it last week. I've watched the past 3 episodes every Saturdat since it started airing, and I actually find it the most interesting show on Adult Swim now. Even the dialogue isn't that bad (despite most say the subtitled version with Japanese dub is better). And if you pay attention closely, you can point out some similiarities it has to Gargoyles. I actually might buy this series on DVD should they release an English dubbed version.

---END ANIME RELATED---

So what's up next for DCV? I have a feeling it's M.I.A. right?
Jim R.
Wednesday, September 18, 2002 10:02:44 AM
IP: 65.173.84.75

Well, I'm going to Chicago today to start college so my posting rate here is going to go the way of the giant sloth since my free time will be sucked away. But I will drop by when I can. Take care.
Jimmy
Wednesday, September 18, 2002 09:24:57 AM
IP: 172.141.95.140

Greg> "This is dumb."

Perish the thought. :) What's today's shirt?
Ellen - [efstolfa@aol.com]
Chicago
Wednesday, September 18, 2002 08:49:59 AM
IP: 64.12.96.138

Just a quick correction to something someone said earlier: Grave of the Fireflies was not Miyazaki. It was a Studio Ghibli production, but it was directed by Isao Takahata.
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
Tuesday, September 17, 2002 10:51:31 PM
IP: 199.79.250.254

Updated MGC again

Wee. Lots of entries.. O.o

Budclare> You bet you can come. ^_^ Adam says he'll keep an out to see if its playing again. ^_^
Siryn
Tuesday, September 17, 2002 09:38:56 PM
IP: 129.21.145.6

Mooncat - they have a chat room here. I'll hang out a while.

That gargoyle's book actually mentioned Demona? That is cool, I find the cartoon versions of the gargoyles far more interesting than the information on the real ones, but I like that the author seemed to follow the show too.
Princess Alexandria - [princess_alex24@hotmail.com]
Tuesday, September 17, 2002 08:52:16 PM
IP: 64.91.48.238

Jimmy> "I was waiting to see what you had to say." Sorry to keep you waiting. ;) Its funny you mention FF's plot is like a videogame. Movie makers(that make game based stuff) are always in a bind; make it like the game and people complain its unoriginal. Make it different from the original game then all the game freaks come out of shadows and nag why they didn't make it more like the game. You never win. Only in our case, Sakaguchi created the games and directed/wrote the movie so when fans complain about it not being like the games, I just reply, "He's Sakaguchi. He can do what he damn well pleases with FF." You also have to look at from Sakaguchi comes from. He's used to writing these huge, epic stories for these multi-disk, mega-hour games and suddenly he has to carry the same flair into a 90 minute movie that has to please a wide range of audiences. I'd say he did pretty good for his first try, even though the critics tore it apart.

"The movie really didn't deserve to be blasted by the critics as much as it did," When the Oscars ignored us and nominated 'Jimmy Neutron Boy Genius' as one of the nominees for best animated feature, I gave up on those biased idiots. Don't get me started about critics either. ;)

Bud-Clare> The unedited script had much better pacing and quite a bit a wide range of situations that made it more 'natural' to me. If left alone, critics would have probably stamped it rated R. I can't go into detail(legal reasons), but let's just say its like comparing the Goliath Chronicles to the original Gargs series.
Roy Sato
Tuesday, September 17, 2002 08:39:30 PM
IP: 168.215.231.54

Roy> "If you think the screenplay/story was slow for FF, you can thank the American screenwriters who jumped in and "adjusted" it the English speaking world."
What was it like before? While I did like it quite a bit, I can see how there could be room for improvement.

Aaron> "He's like Xanatos in sixth grade. I wanna be just like him when I grow up."
So... wouldn't you want to be just like him when you grown down? If he's in sixth grade? Or did you mean Xanatos?

"<<I don't bother listening to the critics.>> Neither do I, but a lot of people must, else how do they stay employed?"
You don't have to listen to the critics, you just have to be amused by them. ;)

"What a great way to spend two days. (Sighs for the Cyrway fics he never has a chance to reread)"
But they weren't encessarily _good_ fics. I've been reading mostly Highlander fics lately, because they're usually so bad that I laugh my ass off at them. ;)

"(God, I almost typed "what the Rock is cookin'" instead of "the coffee." Have pity on me)"
*L* What the hell is that supposed to mean? (But I'm pretty sure I do pity you, or at least I will, after I've finished laughing. ;)

"<<if you don't knock it off, I'm going to strangle you. :P>> Whoa, now who's having violent urges? ;)"
But I never said I'd _kill_ him, see? Just strangle him until he turned a slightly odd color, and then let go. It's a form of communication. :P

Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Tuesday, September 17, 2002 07:49:51 PM
IP: 129.21.12.10

sorry, just a quick note to Princess -- my personal e-mail is down. Will try and contact you on the yahoo account.

Mooncat
>^,,^<
Mooncat
Tuesday, September 17, 2002 07:23:29 PM
IP: 68.102.23.36

I haven't posted here in a few years, just a Gargoyles fan making a triumphant return.

Goliath & Elisa forever.

Peace,
LOU in NJ
Lou Serbio
Tuesday, September 17, 2002 07:20:11 PM
IP: 206.203.46.6

I checked out a book about gargoyles from the library today, entitled "Holy Terrors: Gargoyles on Medieval Buildings" by Janetta Rebold Benton. It contains a lot of snapshots of gargoyles all over Europe, and information about them. And it briefly mentions the cartoon (specifically describing Demona's transformation from human to gargoyle). "Gargoyles" fans might be interested in looking for it at their local libraries.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, September 17, 2002 06:43:49 PM
IP: 67.28.89.164

Roy> I was waiting to see what you had to say.

Spirited Away> It's coming out friday? Well Disney sure did a crappy job marketing it since I haven't even heard of it outside of this CR.

Final Fantasy> I thought the plot was a little weak, but I never thought the CGI overpowered any thing. My main problem was that it seemed like a video-game story superimposed onto a movie. Video-game stories work because there are consistent breaks in the action, so when you learn something, it is the result of effort. In a movie when you're passively absorbing information, that style of storytelling simply doesn't work and it will en dup looking like a bunch of cutscenes spliced together.
The movie really didn't deserve to be blasted by the critics as much as it did, I guess all the actors just got hung up on themselves and saw the CGI as an affront to their "art."

Jimmy
Tuesday, September 17, 2002 06:11:26 PM
IP: 172.151.245.211

This is dumb. I'm admitting that up-front. But here goes...

I'm going to attempt to wear all my gargoyles (and gargoyles-related) t-shirts on consecutive days. Let's see how long it'll last.

Today's shirt (#1):

Well, I'm cheating a bit on this, but it is Gargoyles related. It's a black cotton t-shirt. With silhouettes outlined in ghostly blue (i think) of three witches around a cauldron. One holds a skull. One holds a cat. One stirs. The Logo reads "Macbeth" of course, in cool blue letters. But the T in Macbeth looks like a dagger and it drips red blood. Beneath that it says: "Utah Shakespearean Festival".
Greg
Tuesday, September 17, 2002 05:17:01 PM
IP: 67.224.9.231

BUD-CLARE - You wrote: [My _entire_ point was that he lost control of his life, and wanted to get it back. That _it_.]

I got that point. And I agree with it more or less; I just latched onto another point you brought up because it caught my attention.

I think that I latched onto the point because I felt that if he does feel that he's lost control of his life and wants it back then the more interesting question is when exactly might he think he lost control; and in that its more likely to me that it'd not be the point that you originally mentioned in passing.

You wrote: [In fact, if you really want to go there, I bet when he's in a particularly depressed mood, he believes that the whole mess started when his father was murder (which it did, really).]

Well, to be completely accurate it would have been a little bit before his father was murdered. :-) And even then I do wonder if he would see it that way considering that he does establish (at least from his perspective) some amount of control in the rest of his mortal life between that point and 1057.

You wrote: [You keep insisting that I'm wrong about something that I never really said, and if you don't knock it off, I'm going to strangle you. :P]

Just for the record I never actually said you were wrong about anything; I just implied it. :-) :-)


But I'll knock it off just the same. :-)



AARON - You wrote: [Although I think you're forgetting Shrek]

SHREK was comedy/drama instead of pure outright drama which is why it didn't come to my mind.

You wrote: [What's WB animated lately, other then the PPG movie?]

Didn't that bomb in the US? (It was a good movie but they put it out at the wrong time; I think they'll make more money off it in the Japanese market.)

You wrote: [But he still went with Disney in the end.]

Mainly because they have the name recognition and distribution power worldwide to be able to push SPIRITED AWAY. The problem in the US is that they aren't pushing it.

You wrote: [I do remember there was a fight about whether the DVD release would even feature the original Japanese language track.]

Yeah but they learned from that; all the Miyazaki movies are supposed to get Japanese tracks with their releases after the uproar that happened when they tried to leave it off the MONONOKE DVD.

You wrote: [If I wanted to prove Miazaki could be big in America, this is not the movie I'd pick.]

I personally would have had them go with LAPUTA which would play extremely well as a Disney release. And they even dubbed it too!

You wrote: [I'd have to go with Castle of Cagliostro]

Disney doesn't have the rights to it; MANGA ENTERTAINMENT got the license a while back. That's why its been out on DVD for so long. And by the way LUPIN III was picked up by PIONEER and FUNIMATION. PIONEER got one of the longer TV series while FUNIMATION picked up a bunch of movies and specials.

You wrote: [Good luck. The CGI is terrible, the characters all look the same, and the hero doesn't even look like he's enjoying himself behind the wheel.]

I never really had an interest in the series. I think that they decided on INITIAL D mainly based on length. Nobody wants a short flagship series after all.

You wrote: [The guy is an exaggerated version of all those other wet rag males who somehow end up with a bunch of women after them.]

Yeah, but it just got so distracting; in the Spring Special at least it was played well for comedy but in the series it just played itself out after a while. Even as parody and exaggeration it was still too much after a while.



ROY - You wrote: [Amazed how many "experts" suddenly came out of the woodworks who claim to know what the creators were thinking when they made their films.]

I never claimed that I knew what was on the mind of the creators; I was giving my personal impression after trying to watch it. The CGI is great but however it got that way in the end the story itself helped put me to sleep. I'd love to see how it was originally produced and intended. But I can only comment on what I've seen. And all I've seen was the dubbed PG US version.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Tuesday, September 17, 2002 05:07:02 PM
IP: 12.88.94.99

Bud-Clare> "Nope. We may all have our dark sides, but they aren't all the same. Thailog is amusing, but no, I wouldn't be like him, even if I were to spontaneously become evil. :P"

I think I'd be like Jackal, myself. ^^ No fun in being evil if I have to hold myself in all the time; really, I'd want the chance to taunt someone I didn't like, hurt them badly, and laugh in their face about it. I hold myself in enough already.

Although, this is if I ever became evil. I'd most certainly never do this under any other circumstances. Yeah . . . that's right. Yep. ;)
Lady Baltimore
MD, USA
Tuesday, September 17, 2002 04:18:21 PM
IP: 199.183.161.123

Interesting opinions about anime. Amazed how many "experts" suddenly came out of the woodworks who claim to know what the creators were thinking when they made their films.

"FINAL FANTASY had the main problem of being so caught up in the pretty CGI that they forgot to actually put out a good and interesting story with a real point that anyone would give a damn staying awake through, forget about sitting through.>> I couldn't agree more. And that sums up my feelings about Spirited away too." Well let me tell you a little story. We at Square were not caught up in just trying to do the prettiest CGI animation. Miyazaki wasn't out there to wow audiences with just his art either(close friend of mine is a veteran Ghibli animator). Sakaguchi and Miyazaki both have created their own strange, twisted worlds that you either understand or totally hate. If you think the screenplay/story was slow for FF, you can thank the American screenwriters who jumped in and "adjusted" it the English speaking world. Think of it as the world's most expensive Japanese to English dub; not to mention good ol' fashioned censorship to get that PG rating. Seeing how awful dubs end up in the US, I don't blame Miyazaki's fear in leaving it to Disney or other so-called experts in tampering with their creation.

Aaron> Didn't know you were a car buff. Whatcha into? Import or domestics? I'm a bike/car nut myself.
Roy Sato
Tuesday, September 17, 2002 04:12:36 PM
IP: 168.215.231.54

MoonCat> <<CARDCAPTER SAKURA - adore the Japanese version, US dub SUCKS>> Well, the dub does prove the awesome power of post-production editing. I mean, altering the storyline to make sidekick #2 seem to have equal import with the heroine? <<KODACHA - my friends like it, but I can't stand it>> Funny, I would have thought Hayama would be right up your alley. He's like Xanatos in sixth grade. I wanna be just like him when I grow up.

Airwalker> <<Let's be honest that if mature animation was going to take hold then most of it is going to be coming out of the Japanese market>> Exactly. Disney doesn't have anything that could compete in-house, (except Gargoyles). The idea of being totally dependant on the Japanese to provide next year's major animated film can't be comforting. Plus, I think Disney just really doesn't want the American public at large to ever come to the conclusion that animation is a means to tell stories to anyone over the age of eleven. (And really, CN's anime invasion aside, how many "normal" people still think that way?) They're preserving the status quo that's done them pretty well so far, (made them pretty much the only game in town animation-wise) Why let anybody rock the boat?

<<the last attempt at mature domestic animation was what, TITAN AE? Which bombed right off the bat.>> Due in part, I think, to poor advertising, and somehow spending eighty million dollars on making it. (Although I think you're forgetting Shrek)

<<Its hard to believe that they would turn away from all that money and the chance to crush their competition and become the only major animation company in the states again.>> What, like they aren't already? Fox is gone. Dreamworks keeps making forgettable pieces like Prince of Egypt and that horse movie. What's WB animated lately, other then the PPG movie?

<<But on the other hand it just seems a little bit too conspiracy theory to me.>> Just call me Bluestone. ;)

<<I need a little more evidence before I can agree with you - and I'll get it when I see how they treat SPIRITED AWAY. If they pull another MONONOKE then just remind me to admit defeat, ok? :-)>> Well, we'll know one way or another starting Friday.

<<Its something that can hurt them in future negotiations in Japan for other movies at other companies.>> Well, Myazaki was allegedly so pissed about the way they've treated his other stuff that he was shopping Spirited Away to Warner Brothers. But he still went with Disney in the end.
<<Do you know how well it did on DVD? I'm curious if they saw a difference and if there was a difference; if it bombed on DVD then I don't know what to say since the DVD release was solid.>> Lemme do some research and get back to you on that. I do remember there was a fight about whether the DVD release would even feature the original Japanese language track.

<<I didn't think TOTORO was bad; not for my age group and a little dull but not bad. Just not geared for me as an audience.>> Or anyone else above the age of four. I watched it on fast forward and I was still bored.

<<judge it as near classic Disney in terms of the animation I have seen>> Oh, it's better. The animation is breath-taking. It's just not got coherent story to tell.

<<I think that they are trying to go for a 15-25 year old audience given the times when they are advertising it, the same one that watches Adult Swim.>> Maybe it could become a cult classic/movie to watch while high, like Fantasia.

<<So its just a longer version of a Classic Disney film? :-)>> No, most Disney films, (except Fantasia) have a classic, three-act progression to them. Set up (who these people are and why we should care about them) Conflict (Enter the villain. Yay!) Resolution (Happy ending all round) Western story-telling in its basic form. Spirited Away, on the other hand... Lacks notably in departments one and three, and doesn't do much better in the middle. If I wanted to prove Miazaki could be big in America, this is not the movie I'd pick. (And, since Disney destroyed choice #1, I'd have to go with Castle of Cagliostro, which, besides being a great movie in it's own right, could jump-start the Lupin franchise, with it's twenty plus years of material, in America)

<<FINAL FANTASY had the main problem of being so caught up in the pretty CGI that they forgot to actually put out a good and interesting story with a real point that anyone would give a damn staying awake through, forget about sitting through.>> I couldn't agree more. And that sums up my feelings about Spirited away too.

<<this was a kids movie in Japan wasn't it?>> I dunno. Most of the people who kept getting up during the movie (the bootleg was filmed in a Japanese theater) looked pretty tall. (Sadly, they were one of the most entertaining things going on)

<<young girl hits adversity and is forced to overcome it ending the movie out learning something and having become more mature and understanding for it; if she had fins we could call it THE LITTLE MERMAID :-)>> Except it's not. It's more like young girl has her parents turned into pigs through means never truly explained, and then falls sideways into some kind of weird parallel dimension, a la Alice in Wonderland. She wanders around for a while, interacts a bit with various strange locals, and then leaves again, having learned to recognize her parents as pigs.

<<I don't bother listening to the critics.>> Neither do I, but a lot of people must, else how do they stay employed?

<<I don't remember them mentioning Disney in their commercial; its officially MIYAZAKI'S SPIRITED AWAY not DISNEY PRESENTS MIYAZAKI'S SPIRITED AWAY.>> Doesn't matter. All animated movies in America are "Disney" movies, whether the mouse has anything to do with them or not. Look at all those people who took their kids to Bakshi's Lord of the Rings. I still remember people talking about "The new Disney film, Anastasia" back in the mid-90s.

<<And GTO is a good story about a 22 year old virgin biker who becomes a teacher to meet girls but then got into the whole teaching thing in his own delinquient manner.>> Oh, right. GTO stands for Great Teacher (Something) right? The source for the Great Teacher Largo joke from Megatokyo.

<<They are trying to make a push to have INITIAL D be their flagship anime and get it on TV. They might have some success with it>> Good luck. The CGI is terrible, the characters all look the same, and the hero doesn't even look like he's enjoying himself behind the wheel. An animated The Fast and the Furious it is not. If you cannot interest *me*, car buff, adrenaline junkie, and consummate reckless driver in an anime about *street racing* you are clearly doing something wrong.

<<I liked it but the wet rag of a main male character really got on my nerves. They really overplayed the beating and abusing the hell out of him joke.>> Well, you have to understand, Love Hina is a self-referencing genre parody, kind of like Scream. The guy is an exaggerated version of all those other wet rag males who somehow end up with a bunch of women after them.

Phil> Congratulations. One new fan a year...

Bud-Clare> <<I read a whole lot of fanfic within about two days. I was procrastinating.>> What a great way to spend two days. (Sighs for the Cyrway fics he never has a chance to reread)

<<So... when you were bitching about idealists, you were refering to Demona, too? ;)>> Yeah. That's what happens when people lose themselves to chase ideals. I'd love to see Demona wake up and smell the coffee. (God, I almost typed "what the Rock is cookin'" instead of "the coffee." Have pity on me)

<<Thailog is amusing, but no, I wouldn't be like him>> Me either. I'd be smart enough to stay with Demona. ;)

<<Elisa was making out with a french guy named Jean-Pierre. ;)>> Nah, it was that waiter. You know, the one named Jean-Luc...

And for the record, if your best friend stabs you in the back, I think turn-about is fair play...

<<if you don't knock it off, I'm going to strangle you. :P>> Whoa, now who's having violent urges? ;)

Aaron - [JCarnage@Yahoo.com]
Tuesday, September 17, 2002 03:18:11 PM
IP: 66.142.70.253

Airwalker> "I understand your point but I just think that if he was going to look back, given the information he has, I think that he'd be more likely to think that he began to really lose control of his life in 1057 when everything actually fell apart rather than in 1040 when he made his alliance with Demona which allowed for a lot of that happy controllable life to remain and even fall into place."

No, you don't understand my point. I never said that he necessarily realized that it started in 1040. I mentioned the Weird Sisters in passing, and you latched onto the reference like it was central to my point. It never was. I only mentioned it because that was when it pretty much started, even if he didn't/doesn't realize it. My _entire_ point was that he lost control of his life, and wanted to get it back. That _it_. I don't know exactly when he thinks that things started to go out of control, and I don't care. In fact, if you really want to go there, I bet when he's in a particularly depressed mood, he believes that the whole mess started when his father was murder (which it did, really). But that is all _completely_ beside the point. You keep insisting that I'm wrong about something that I never really said, and if you don't knock it off, I'm going to strangle you. :P
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Tuesday, September 17, 2002 02:57:21 PM
IP: 129.21.12.10

LORD SLOTH - You wrote: [Ebert just said he loved SPIRITED AWAY, Roper agreed]

Can't say I'm suprised; there isn't much to say against Miyazaki films and his past record on them (GRAVE OF THE FIREFLIES and PRINCESS MONONOKE) was extremely positive in terms of the reviews he gave them. I hope that it helps out a bit but more depends on advertising and how wide of a release it gets.

I personally can't wait to see it although most likely what going to happen is that I just won't get a chance until it comes out on DVD; thats what happened with MONONOKE.



ELLEN - You wrote: [Princess Katharine may have mentioned something to her about Demona in the past]

I doubt it; unless there was some positive incident that involved Demona and Katharine prior to AWAKENINGS for her to talk about then I don't think that she would have any reason to bring Demona up except to describe her as the Second in Command and as Goliath's Love interest. (And given how they describe her as Goliath's second rather than his love in AVALON 2 its more likely that this is how they thought of her and remembered her.)

To be honest the only Gargoyle that they really had major contact with and who would factor in their minds the most is Goliath. (It also helps that he had a name to describe him with at the time; it more difficult to try and talk about individual Gargoyles in a mythic context without being able to name them - people tend to lose interest when you start describing someone rather than naming them right from the start.)

You wrote: [And it's true that when Angela and the others saw Demona and Macbeth attacking them, it was clear that they were not acting under their own power.]

Largely I think that the Avalon Clan recognizes that Demona and Macbeth were being controlled by the Archmage and the Weird Sisters. But its still a strong possibility that even with this in mind they don't have a positive impression of Demona and Macbeth and harbor some anger towards them regardless of the circumstances. (I wonder in particular how Ophelia might feel considering how badly hurt she was and that she actually went into direct conflict with Demona and got hurt in a more personal manner.)

You wrote: [Regading when Demona realized that Angela was her daughter, I recall Thailog uttering a line in "The Reckoning" to the effect of, "You've known who she (i.e., Angela) is since Paris, and you've still been unable to turn her." ]

What he actually says is "You've know she was your daughter since before we staged your capture and you've still been unable to turn her". That makes it a bit ambigious since "before we staged your capture" is a pretty large period of time. But still it tends to lean more towards the theory that she wondered and speculated about Angela until Sevarius filled in some of the details for her prior to starting out on the current scheme that they were on.

You wrote: [Thank you for your detailed analysis of my analysis. :)]

Sure. :-) Your original analysis was extremely well done and interesting; it got my creative juices flowing which is why I began analyzing your analysis. :-)



BUD-CLARE - You wrote: [Select theaters, my ass.]

And the probable marketing mishap starts with Miyazaki AGAIN. I'll wait until I see how many theatres in NYC have it before I move into the mob screaming "Disney's DOING IT AGAIN!!". (Its one thing if you can't find a release in Montana but if you can't find it in more than one theatre in NYC then its a problem.)

Still on the positive side they put the Disney brand name in the title even though it seems its going through Buena Vista. With MONONOKE I think they kept the Disney brand name off the advertisements and movie posters.

You wrote: [He was a good king, he had a family he adored (and vice versa), and one day he lost it all.]

Yeah, one day in 1057. :-) I understand your point but I just think that if he was going to look back, given the information he has, I think that he'd be more likely to think that he began to really lose control of his life in 1057 when everything actually fell apart rather than in 1040 when he made his alliance with Demona which allowed for a lot of that happy controllable life to remain and even fall into place.

Its possible that he could look back at the day of his alliance with Demona and say "This is where it all fell apart; cause of that damn spell that came with that wretched alliance" but on the other hand if he was sitting and looking at it rationally that alliance gave him 17 years as a King and 17 more years to spend with his wife and son. He doesn't really know that the moment that Spell was put on him he was solidified as a pawn of the Weird Sisters. In fact he doesn't know that he lost control of his life even earlier in 1032 when the Archmage told them to get him under their control. To him I think that the feeling your describing would occur but that the dating and the reasons for it would differ.

You wrote: [I find it fairly believable that it was left out.]

Its believable that the argument wasn't used given the circumstances. I'm just still a little disappointed that it didn't come up even though I can understand why it didn't; it would have solved a lot of problems for them.

(And its possible that it was put forward to Boreas after Elisa saves the citystate; I can't believe that he'd just let her go just because she saved everyone. Its more likely to me that the saving gave her more credibility and then she put that argument to him offscreen. Putting that together with her actions probably made it easier for him to let her go.)

You wrote: [Excuse me, some people actually liked it.]

Uh, well...... Good for you! :-)



GREG BISHANSKY - You wrote: [I've got the whole series on DVD.]

So far I only got the first DVD. I have seen the entire dubbed on CN and subbed in my college anime club way back when.

You wrote: [As for Vicious's voice. Sorry, but I greatly prefer his American voice. It fits him a lot more, and I felt he was more powerful, angry and evil in the dub. He was also a lot colder, which I felt worked for him.]

I don't actually hate the dub voice or think that its badly done. Its pretty well done and I don't mind listening to the character dubbed; I just prefer the sub version. To me Vicious is someone who is a bit dead inside; I think that comes out better in the subbed version. The dub on the other hand emphasises his hate and cruelty which in one way to go at it. I just prefer looking at it (and hearing it) from the other direction.

(And I'm not someone who's just sub only in the sub VS dub debates; I don't judge dubs without hearing them and there have been in my opinion many well done dubs that people have just dismissed simply because it was a dub. If I have the option (and with DVD the sub/dub argument becomes a bit irrelevent) then I watch both. COWBOY BEBOP has one of the finest dubs I've ever heard and I enjoy watching the series in either language.)



PATRICK - You wrote: [No one who's spent any amount of time working among mobsters as Elisa has in the course of her undercover duties is EVER going to offer the line "I won't talk, but even if I do..." as a defense.]

True. If she did put it like that then it would cause her more trouble than she was already in. I just think that since they are assuming that she's going to talk to begin with that if she framed it correctly then pointing out that nobody in the Human world believes they exist and would think it insane to say they do couldn't hurt.

The New Olympians are acting pretty self centered in worldview in the episode and the leadership is acting pretty irresponsibly in how they are analysising and looking at the bulk of Humanity as a lump - the argument against Elisa was more an argument on Humanity in general; pointing out little bits like that might not help Elisa with the general population but it could have influence on Talos and Boreas who are ultimately making the decision.
Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Tuesday, September 17, 2002 01:02:06 AM
IP: 12.88.85.209

Cowboy Bebop > Not sure I buy into that "Spike stole Julia from Vicious" idea. We don't really see Julia and Vicious together in that context, so the door's wide open. And I kinda doubt that Spike was all that different from Vicious in those syndicate days. He was probably just as cold and heartless until he met Julia. She "thawed" him, so to speak.

As I watched the show, I kept getting this feeling that Spike and Vicious had a sort of Demona/Macbeth dynamic. Anyone agree?
Scott Iskow - [smiskow@lycos.com]
Tuesday, September 17, 2002 12:36:35 AM
IP: 68.50.37.201

Siryn> "Tempest mentioned a small threatre in town where mononoke hime was shown, so HOPEFULLY it will be shown there again... "
TAKE ME WITH YOU!?! (If it's showing somewhere...)
Why can't they just post a list of theaters that are showing it? Lazy bastards.)
I've been checking the online movie listings, but so far, they only have up through wednesday posted.

Clicky:
Bud-Clare
Monday, September 16, 2002 10:40:31 PM
IP: 129.21.10.107

BUD-CLARE> Very true, good points all around.

TALEWEAVER> No one is lamenting Vicious, I was just talking about the way I perceive him, not justifying his actions. I thought he was a very interesting villain, and we need more of those. Not dull one dimensional characters like say the Shredder.
Greg Bishansky
Monday, September 16, 2002 10:06:11 PM
IP: 216.179.1.27

Bud Clare> Tempest mentioned a small threatre in town where mononoke hime was shown, so HOPEFULLY it will be shown there again... >:) MUST SEE MOVIE!

(thankyou for the link, and I added you to my lj list. ^_^)
my nick is 'laurean'

Wee..updated MGC too! Congrats to Sara Berkeley and Stephen Sobotka our most artistic and most creative winners respectively! ^_^ We're still currently taking submissions for the Wild Wild West MGC topic!! :D So you still have lots of time to enter!
Siryn - [<--MGC]
Monday, September 16, 2002 09:41:10 PM
IP: 129.21.145.6

Hi all,

Spirited Away> You know I could just kick myself. I was in Kong Kong last month. I saw the DVD and VCD in the stores and didn't buy it. it was there, I had the money and I for some reason I didn't pick it up. Nuts and Raisins!

Cowboy Bebop> Lament for poor Vicious? I think not. I remember Jupiter Jazz. Vicious was an unfeeling no-goodnik well before he met either Spike or Julia. on top of that Vicious was amoral, meaning he had no code of honor. I'm still trying to figure out how you can betray someone with no code to cross?

One question though. What was the secret in the data dog, Ein?

Just my two cents on that. Talk to you later.
Taleweaver - [loremaster27@hotmail.com]
Monday, September 16, 2002 09:18:28 PM
IP: 24.205.119.135

"Nope. We may all have our dark sides, but they aren't all the same. Thailog is amusing, but no, I wouldn't be like him, even if I were to spontaneously become evil. :P"

Actually, I think my evil clone would end up a lot like Thailog as far as his MO. But I don't think it would be able to keep that Xanatosian composure when someone does something to get me angry. My evil twin would have a vicious temper.
Jimmy
Monday, September 16, 2002 07:14:58 PM
IP: 172.146.103.94

Greg B.> "But tell, me who's never had violent fantasies when they're angry at someone, and I mean, really, really angry?"
But it's a question of _who_ you're having these fantasies about. It's one thing to briefly fantasize about killing someone you hate, but when it's someone you are supposed to care about... I can understand hating someone that you used to care about because you think they betrayed you, but... not really in that context. The first response to someone "stealing" your girlfriend away should be "what the hell just happened?", not "I'm going to kill him/her/them." There is no such thing as "stealing" someone's girlfriend, they do whatever they do of their own free will. And if she's capable of being "stolen," there was something really wrong with the relationship that she was in (or else something really wrong with her, so good riddance). (Of course, that's all a vast oversimplification, since motives vary from person to person, but it's sufficient for the point.) All right, maybe if the whole thing was a plot between the girlfriend and the best friend to steal the poor bastards money or something, but under normal circumstances... the guy ought to be reevaluating his relationship and trying to understand why she left him, not violently lashing out. To react violently against someone you love just because they did something you didn't understand (even if the violence is only in your imagination) indicates that you're a little unhinged, and that may well be the reason she left. If you really love someone, violence shouldn't be such a short step away... (Don't even get me started on Othello...)

Patrick> Re: Elisa's arguments
*L* Good point.
Bud-Clare
Monday, September 16, 2002 07:04:12 PM
IP: 129.21.10.108

Elisa and the New Olympians > No one who's spent any amount of time working among mobsters as Elisa has in the course of her undercover duties is EVER going to offer the line "I won't talk, but even if I do..." as a defense. That's one of those "but now I've said too much" phrases that instead of calming the situation ends up getting you in more trouble then you were already in, by reinforcing things the other person is already worrying about.

Just my two cents on that. :)
Patrick Toman
Monday, September 16, 2002 05:34:23 PM
IP: 67.38.251.218

BUD-CLARE> What do you want from me? I'm EVIL! EVIL! ;)

Seriously, I agree with you. Especially on the intelligent women part. The key word is 'want', not "I would". But tell, me who's never had violent fantasies when they're angry at someone, and I mean, really, really angry? Doesn't mean a person would of course.

But Vicious is an anime bad guy, so what else should we expect from him? ;)
Greg Bishansky
Monday, September 16, 2002 04:47:13 PM
IP: 216.179.1.177

Greg B.> "if my best friend ran off with my woman, I'd want to slice him up with a katana also"
Gosh, that's a really nice attitude, but I've detected one _tiny_, insignificant flaw in your brilliant logic: intelligent women dump sorry losers who would kill someone just because they're mad at them. Just a thought.

Airwalker> "It could be argued that he'd focus more on the betrayal on that Hill in 1057 rather than the spellcasting in 1040."
That may well be true, but that's still entirely beside the point that I was trying to make. He was a good king, he had a family he adored (and vice versa), and one day he lost it all. He went from being about as much in control of his own life as any person can be, to more or less floating around the world for centuries, unable to stay in any place for too long, etc. I'm sure that many times during his life, he regained a large degree of control over his life (like during the series, for instance), but never to the degree that he had before, and he was never as quite as happy again. Then a sword comes along that, to his mind, can make him king again. It's no damn wonder he latched onto the idea of claiming it for himself, for any number of reasons.

Jim R., Aaron> Thank you.

Sloth> "WOULD it be appropriate for Carl Johnson to create a sing song for Gargoyles. Could you picture it happening?"
You're evil. :P

Aaron> "Really? Who's it by? I'm always on the look-out for good fanfic. (So much of what appears in the archive these days is... distressing, to say the least)"
It wasn't Gargoyles, and I'm not sure I remember which one it was besides. (I read a whole lot of fanfic within about two days. I was procrastinating.) It _might_ have been a Trigun fic...

"Goliath and Demona are both idealists, they just happen to hold different ideals."
So... when you were bitching about idealists, you were refering to Demona, too? ;)

"Like the regular B&N stores, they'll only carry trade paperbacks."
*whimpers* I'm scared...

Airwalker> "I was disappointed that Elisa or Goliath didn't try to make the arguement that even if she did want to tell anyone in the outside world about New Olympus that nobody would believe her since nobody believes in the Myths anymore"
I find it fairly believable that it was left out. For one thing, you never think of the really _good_ arguments until afterwards. ;) Secondly, Goliath is himself a myth, and they've met so many other myths... I think that, after awhile, they'd sort of stop noticing. It's one of the most obvious arguments for them to use, so eventually it'd suffer from the right-in-front-of-your-nose phenomanon. Also, they were probably so overwhelmed by the moral issues involved, that they sort of forgot the more practical. They were more concerned with making the NO see that not all humans are evil, rather than trying to take the direct route to getting Elisa released. Plus, Xanatos would believe them, and most definitely be interested. It's not like Goliath and Elisa were going to think to themselves "Well, I could use this argument, even though it's not strictly true, because they have no way of knowing that its not true." I can't believe that I just wrote so much on such a stupid topic. Moving on.

Jimmy> "because he swears that there are Gargoyles living in the cave outside his house."
Weird.

Ellen> "Isn?t the terrible truth behind Thailog?s tremendous appeal as a villain the fact that, deep down, on a level that most of us don?t even care to acknowledge, we all want to be him, and know that we mustn?t/shouldn?t/can?t?"
Nope. We may all have our dark sides, but they aren't all the same. Thailog is amusing, but no, I wouldn't be like him, even if I were to spontaneously become evil. :P

Airwalker> "Go to a "Big Apple" and well, uh I'm not sure what you should expect. :-)"
A funny smell? Apples don't last long in the summer heat. ;)

"The next we see, she tells Goliath about Demona and he goes to Notre Dame. A couple minutes later, he says that the sun is about to rise. Did it take Elisa a long time to get back?"
Elisa was making out with a french guy named Jean-Pierre. ;)

Mooncat> "Current recommend if you go for anime, Noir"
It's one of my favorites. :)
(And I finally found out who "Coppelia" is! Woohoo! :)

Airwalker> "Between hearing the plan, escaping, suiting up, and then heading off to the fight with Demona plus considering his emotional state at the time I don't think he would have put two and two together so easily."
Plus, he didn't know anything about Demona and Thailog's financial partnership, so he'd be missing a big piece of the puzzle.

"FINAL FANTASY had the main problem of being so caught up in the pretty CGI that they forgot to actually put out a good and interesting story with a real point that anyone would give a damn staying awake through, forget about sitting through."
Excuse me, some people actually liked it. Do I say rude things like that about movies that you like? :P

Kit Kat> *pounces* Hey! I was just thinking about you recently. Can't remember why, though. Maybe just general nostalgia. How are you?

Phil> Congratulations. :)

Behold, my shiny new LiveJournal:
Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Monday, September 16, 2002 03:11:44 PM
IP: 129.21.10.108

AIRWALKER> <<I love that episode although I liked Vicious better in Japanese than in the dub; not that the dub version was bad but he seemed more powerful, angry and evil in the sub than in the dub.>>

Oh, I definetly have to add in my $.02 on this one ;). Episode 5, "Ballad of Fallen Angels" is a great episode, one of my favorites. All the Vicious episodes are great, particularly both parts to "Real Folk Blues". I've got the whole series on DVD. Vicious is one of my favorite villains.

As for Vicious's voice. Sorry, but I greatly prefer his American voice. It fits him a lot more, and I felt he was more powerful, angry and evil in the dub. He was also a lot colder, which I felt worked for him. Which leads into...

SPOILERS

Vicious is well, a vicious killer (pun not intended), and given the life he's led, I don't think he opened himself up to many people. Till he met Julia and Spike way, way back. Julia was obviously his girlfriend, and Spike his best friend. When Spike and Julia got together, and were going to run off and leave the Syndicate, Vicious saw it as a terrible betrayal, which it was (if my best friend ran off with my woman, I'd want to slice him up with a katana also), and he became a lot colder, less prone to show emotion (though it still seeps through on occasion), and I felt the American voice actor captured that a lot better than the Japanese VA did.

And hell, his hatred for Spike is definetly justified. How often do you see a case where the villain was the one that was wronged by the hero? Really genuinly wronged?

END SPOILERS

I now return you to your On-Topic conversations ;)
Greg Bishansky
Monday, September 16, 2002 02:03:00 PM
IP: 216.179.5.254

Yep, Greg Weisman did mention that it was Sevarius who clued Demona in on Angela being her daughter. (I've got to admit that I'm surprised that I'd never considered that possibility of how Demona found out before he mentioned it, given that it's so logical).

I don't know if Greg's going to be able to post his ramble about "M.I.A." this week or not (he seems, at the moment, to be doing them on alternate weeks), but I'm certainly looking forward to it. (One thing that we should be grateful for about this episode; Goliath and Co. didn't visit Trafalgar Square during their visit to London. Things could have gotten pretty ugly if Bronx had gotten loose there. :) )
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, September 16, 2002 07:21:50 AM
IP: 63.208.47.116

Dang... missed the top ten.

How she knew > I always figured Demona found out that Angela was her daughter from Dr. Sevarius, who sampled Angela's DNA at Loch Ness. In "The Reckoning" and later "Hunter's Moon" we saw that Anton had evidently been working in the employ of "Dominique Destine" for some time.
Patrick Toman
Monday, September 16, 2002 07:14:59 AM
IP: 67.38.240.160

*grumbles* Select theaters, my ass. Clicky:
Bud-Clare
Monday, September 16, 2002 05:11:51 AM
IP: 129.21.10.112

It's been a busy weekend - I finally have a chance to steal some time from sleep and add a few follow-up points.

Airwalker and Jurgan: Good questions regarding how Angela could regard Demona as such an enemy of her clan at this point. I don't have any answers. Princess Katharine may have mentioned something to her about Demona in the past, but it's evident from "Sanctuary" that it wouldn't have been much, and she certainly wouldn't have known much about Demona's life post-Wyvern herself. And it's true that when Angela and the others saw Demona and Macbeth attacking them, it was clear that they were not acting under their own power. The subject could logically have come up at some point in the skiff, but it's not one that either Elisa or Goliath would be very willing to discuss in any detail, I'm sure. My bad.

Airwalker et al.: Regading when Demona realized that Angela was her daughter, I recall Thailog uttering a line in "The Reckoning" to the effect of, "You've known who she (i.e., Angela) is since Paris, and you've still been unable to turn her." That's why I assumed that, when Demona comes to in the chateau and looks into Angela's face, she, like Elisa, quickly puts two and two together.

Airwalker: Thank you for your detailed analysis of my analysis. :) In my opinion, the fact that different people can examine the plot and characters of "Gargoyles" and come up with varying interpretations the way this fandom does speaks volumes about the artistic nature of this series.

Todd: Regarding "Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow…" Maybe he figured it was something Christopher Marlowe added. :)

And MC, you're a dear. Thanks (again).

By the way, everyone, I see that the movie "Barbershop" is getting rave reviews (including from the Wall Street Journal, and that reviewer tends to be picky) and is cleaning up at the box office.

Ellen - [efstolfa@aol.com]
Chicago
Monday, September 16, 2002 02:55:57 AM
IP: 205.188.208.9

tenth? Did I make it?
Princess Alexandria - [princess_alex24@hotmail.com]
Monday, September 16, 2002 02:50:16 AM
IP: 209.206.249.67

Ah! SPIRITED AWAY talk! Well, we got a chance to see this movie and... it rocks. So here's our take of the movie. :)(may contain spoilers of Spirited Away.)

ROY SAYS, KIVA SAYS: A Discussion about "Spirited Away"

Kiva: So what did you think of Spirited Away, hon?
Roy: It rocks.
Kiva: It does, ne?
Roy: Yeah, it does.
Kiva: Best line of the movie?
Roy: "Gooda rucku!"
Kiva: "Don't insult the customer!!(nasal breath) Peee-yweeww!!"
Kiva: Favorite character? I like Haku. Haku rules. I want a Haku now.
Roy: Hamaji. Who wouldn't want that many arms? Think of how much more animation I could do in one day!
Kiva: So how does this rank among your favorite Ghibli films? It replaced Princess Mo as my favorie. Heehee. :)
Roy: Originally I was a Kiki fan(gotta like them little kid does good stories), but Sen took it to another level. And for those of you who are wondering about the original title, "Sen to Chihiro no Kamikakushi" (literally translated as Sen and Chihiro's hiding by the gods), how da heck did that become "Spirited Away"? Guess its easier to say the latter for us english speaking folk. Or just call it S.A.C.H.B.T.G. Oh well.
Kiva: Final thoughts of the movie? Disney sure as heck better not screw it up. ;)
Roy: Knowing Eisner, he'll make a part 2 direct to video, advertise how great sequels are and continue to drive the company into the ground. "Spirited Away 2: Sen and Chihiro rejected by the gods."

And that, as they say, is that. ^_^
Roy & Kiva (the betrothed)
Honolulu, Hawaii!!!, USA
Monday, September 16, 2002 02:10:39 AM
IP: 64.75.151.24

JENNA> The Eyrie Building is on Central Park South.
Greg Bishansky
Monday, September 16, 2002 01:25:20 AM
IP: 216.179.5.254

Ok Question of the week:
Where is the location on Manhattan Island that the Erie building stands?
Jenna
Monday, September 16, 2002 01:22:13 AM
IP: 65.59.37.146

Sixth?

Sloth> No way. I had Ebert and Roper on, but I was totally not watching it. I can't believe that I missed it. :(
Bud-Clare
Monday, September 16, 2002 12:44:12 AM
IP: 129.21.12.22

<ENTER LORD SLOTH>
Fifth.
And in case you all don't know already, and a good number of you want to know; Ebert just said he loved SPIRITED AWAY, Roper agreed, and I am now definitly intreeged. It looks like the epitome of creative diversity, know what I mean?
<EXIT LORD SLOTH>
Lord Sloth
Oakville, ON, Canada
Monday, September 16, 2002 12:36:37 AM
IP: 142.55.21.45

I claim 4th in the name of the Fay!

MOONCAT
>^,,^<
Mooncat
Monday, September 16, 2002 12:16:56 AM
IP: 68.102.23.36

Number 1!

SOK
Monday, September 16, 2002 12:03:11 AM
IP: 67.233.23.64

SECOND? Wahoo! :)
Ravyn and Coyote
Monday, September 16, 2002 12:02:59 AM
IP: 150.135.118.57

1ST!! ;)
Knoxville - [knox@kentar.org]
Monday, September 16, 2002 12:02:21 AM
IP: 208.54.204.224