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Gargoyles

The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending February 9, 2009

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Spideyforever: Maybe you're the one with weird tastes. Didn't think of that, did you? Of course you didn't.
D. Taina
"The story is told -- though who can say if it be true..." -Shari

Well, yeah. If you disagree with him, he'll call you a racist.

Spideyforever: Last I checked, people had the right to voice their opinions, regardless of whether or not they agree. At least Brook's using punctuation.

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Shut your noise hole, taco human!" -Invader Zim

spideyforever> As long as a person can voice their dislike in a civil manner, then said person is free to state their dislike.

I suppose you prefer that everyone agrees with you?

Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]

If you don't like just keep your mouth shut because you have weird taste.
spideyforever

I'm sorry to say, but MUMMIES ALIVE was one of the worst shows around when it aired!!

Seriously!!

Cliche characters, stupid plot devices, dumb villains and a completely s!!! song made this one of my hate-shos of the late 90s.

However, I LOVED Bob Morane!!
Yellow Shadow... uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh...

Brook

Mummies Alive came out September 1997, Gargoyles ended February 1997. I don't think that they were competition.

I have fond memories of the series and did like to watch it, but I wouldn't consider it en par with Gargoyles.

Anonymouse

Harvester> "There were actually three actors from The Stand who were also in Gargoyles: Bill Faggerbakke, Matt Frewer, and Laura San Giacomo."

A fact that I found/still find very cool, from a Gargoyles fan/filmgeek standpoint.

Only thing I didn't like was what they did with Giacomo's character. What a waste.

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

I was really into Mummies Alive! in middle school. I watched it a few years later and it didn't seem so bad, but nothing I would be able to get back into. As a kid, I enjoyed picking out the references to Egyptian mythology, no matter how bastardized they sometimes were. :) (Like, Set being a *dog* instead of the "Set Animal" WTF?)

I heard recently that it was considered a competing series to "Gargoyles". Any truth to that?

Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream" -- Shirley Jackson

There were actually three actors from The Stand who were also in Gargoyles: Bill Faggerbakke, Matt Frewer, and Laura San Giacomo.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
Turns out Obama was full of shit when he promised change. I almost got arrested when I knocked on the White House door and tried to get four quarters for a dollar.

I saw one multi-part episode of "Mummies Alive!" Prior to that, I had read about the show and seen synopses of most of the episodes. I thought the concept and plot ideas sounded really good, but when I saw the actual show, the execution just seemed very lacking. The one part I recall liking was the male lead mummy (can't recall his name) looking at a tiny handprint his now long dead son left on his wrappings after he was mummified and wondering what became of his family after his death. Aside from that, I found it pretty predictable and uninteresting.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

I remember Mummies Alive. It wasn't the worst cartoon ever made but it was pretty forgetable, and I never understood why Egytian deities like Apophis, Geb and Anubis let themselves be treated like common henchmen by the main villain?
Algernon

Mummies Alive was awful,I just could not get into it.
VickyUK - [Vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]

Patrick> I watched it once or twice (before The Stand, so my last comment still stands), but I never could get into it. Dunno why, it just put me off for some reason.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

spideyforever> I remember Mummies Alive!
Ricky

Sorry thought you were talking to me
spideyforever

What are you talking about?
spideyforever

KingCobra > You never saw an episode of "Coach"?
Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Does anyone remember a show that came out around the same time Gargoyles did? It was called Mummies Alive and unfortunately only lasted for 1 season. It was about this boy who discovered he is the reincarnation of a pharaoh's son. The pharaoh's son was killed by the show's villain because he wanted immortality and reawakened to take it from the pharaoh's reincarnation. He is protected by four mummies. Don't remember what station it aired on but I think it was Fox Kids. It is now on Youtube. Check it out.
spideyforever

Antiyonder: "Heck, at one point we had I believe two years of questions that he had to go through"

Anyone remember, "You'll have to do better than that!" ?

Try a few YEARS -- it essentially became the norm around here for the question queue to be two years behind in answering questions. (I vaguely remember it being almost close to two and a half for a couple months)

If I remember correctly, it wasn't till early 2007 did Greg finally get current -- He even had to go "Robo-Macbeth" on several Gathering entries just get through the morass of submitted questions.

Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka

Ann> As has been said, you can ask your question here as well. As for why the site isn't taking questions for the moment. There are plenty of times when Greg is busy with his job and can't answer the questions right away.

And that to the fact that the page is flooded with:
1. Random questions which have nothing to do with the topic.
2. Or have been asked plenty of times before.
3. Spam.

Too many questions for Greg to answer. Heck, at one point we had I believe two years of questions that he had to go through.

Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]

Ann> When the "Ask A Question" feature is closed, feel free to ask your questions here in the Comment Room and we'll do our best to answer them.

Greg announced that the "Ask A Question" feature will reopen in March. You can read his announcement among other interesting tidbits here: http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=809

Anthony Tini

hi this isn't exactly a comment but the whole point of your website is to ask you questions about witch yet what is the point when you wont let ask you any questions why arent you taking questions.
to people who read this i know this is the comment area but i cant ask a question any where else

ann - [www dot blondiechip at hotmail dot com]
ann

Off-topic> Just found a link to an interesting bit of Halloween 2 casting news here. Posting it here because it's MILDLY Gargoyles related.

http://www.joblo.com/arrow/index.php?id=15513

First time I'd be seeing him in something live action since Stephen King's The Stand...

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

Todd> Moses and Jacob (Musa and Yakub) are also revered prophets in Islam. Not sure about Jeremiah.
Supermorff

spideyforever - Nope, unless there is magic used, they're dead. Greg has said that a severe gouge or amputation of a stone gargoyle kills them (i.e. they never wake up from stone sleep), even if a majority of the body is intact.
Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot mail dot service]

Just because I feel like asking another random question If a Gargoyle fell is he humpty-dumptied or could they be brought back to life by being put back togteher?
spideyforever

Just curious. That was just a random question.
spideyforever

On the 10th Anniversary DVD Commentary it was said that the Gargoyle's stone-skin was part of their bio...
...if it were part of their bio, as-like being a skin/shell layer, instead of the gargoyle from
actually turning to "complete" stone. Then when Goliath returned to Castle Wyvern after the
Vikings sacked it, Goliath picked-up what was a pile of rubble, instead of a bloody-broken mess
and stone-shell. So... I thought that the idea that when the gargoyles turn to stone, they turn
completely to stone, that would explain why Goliath picked-up a pile rubble opposed to a bloody-
broken mess and stone-shell. So-- I thought I would just point that out, because it didn't make any
sense, when it was explained that the gargoyle's skin was part of their bio;)

Justin J. Barney - [phil_laysheo69 at live dot com]
ILuvTimedancers

Greg had the advantage that the three Biblical characters introduced in the Stone of Destiny so far - Jacob, Moses, and Jeremiah - were all from the Old Testament, making them honored by Jews as well as Christians.
Todd Jensen
www.gunnerkrigg.com/index2.php

spideyforever - Speaking from experience, I'd recommend staying away from the AskGreg archives, Wiki, and maybe even the comment room until you're done watching the whole series--if you want to avoid spoilers. I had some key series plot points spoiled by AskGreg because I didn't watch the entire series before browsing around AskGreg.

That said, to answer your question: gargoyles turn to an organic, stone-like material during the day as part of a biological process. If a gargoyle falls from a high-enough height after turning to stone, he/she will shatter (i.e. die).

Landon Thomas - [lumpmoose at googles dot email dot service]

"All things are true. Few are accurate."
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Genetic engineering helps us correct God's horrible mistakes, like German people." - Mr. Garrison

i think greg did a good job of not makeing religon one of the major issues in gargoyles. it's not atheistic, not overly christian/jewish/islamic or what-have-you, the subject just rarely comes up and is never elaborated on. and i think thats pretty kool.
sTiTcH

Greg didn't seem shy about touching on religious aspects in the Stone of Destiny story. If "all things are true" -- even if "few are accurate" -- then the historical Jesus existed the "Gargoyles" universe just as he did in ours.
Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Just finished watching parts 3,4,5 of The Awakening. What do you guys think happens if they're in the middle of a fate of the world at stake battle and the sun comes up while they they are in mid-air?
spideyforever

Off the top of my head, I can't think of other aspects to the Grail outside of the Arthurian legend and its layers of additions and modifications. If I recall some random Arthurian program, well before the whole bloodline aspect became in vogue, there was an attempt at tracking the evolution of the Grail mythos and its place in the overall Arthurian mythos. Like many things, I think it started off as just being a very special, supernatural cup with vague abilities. The purpose of the Grail was to be an object to go after. Over time, its history was developed, as well as its purported powers.

One short story I remember reading from a young adult anthology attempted to address the ambiguous nature of the Grail. In it, two young girls/women are each on a quest to find the object to help heal their kingdom. For the Christian girl, it was the Grail, and for the pagan girl, I think it was a cauldron or bowl. Needless to say, the two girls meet and do not get along, even arguing over what they're looking for despite it serving the same purpose. What the author did to get across the significance of the Grail, overcoming the characters' spiritual differences, was to have the Christian girl see the cauldron and the pagan see the Grail. This has probably influenced my attitude a little in regards to the Grail in regards to the Arthurian mythos; it may have Christian connections, but that's not all of it. It reflects the journey of the quest and the mystical/spiritual/magical connection to the health of the land and kingdom.

Asatira

Algernon> To clarify, I don't think the Grail's links to Christianity should be completely omitted from the comic. Even though they apparently aren't part of the original Grail stories, I think you're correct in pointing out that they have become almost inextricably linked to the popular perception of the Grail, so much so that I'd wager most people are not aware that the Grail was not originally identified as the cup of Christ. The idea is so prevalent that if Greg wanted to suggest that the Grail was something other than what most people believe it to be, he would have to go out of his way to make it clear that the idea that the Grail is not a Christian relic is not originally his.

Dealing with major world religions in a world like the Gargoyles universe can be a bit of a minefield. If the Grail does turn about to be the Christian relic its widely thought to be (and this is shown in an indisputable way, not merely suggested in one of Shari's stories), it raises questions about whether Jesus was a real person and the son of God in the Gargoyles universe, which I'm not sure anyone wants to get into just now.

My personal feeling (as someone who also find "Seventh Heaven" rather nausea inducing) is that the best way to handle it is something like how the Stone of Destiny's backstory was handled. Suggest the Christian connection as a possibility - preferably one of a few - and leave it up to individuals readers to decide what's true and accurate, at least for now.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

I'm not sure why everybody wants to jettison the Grail's Christian backstory. I hate it when shows try to ram religion down our throats too, Heck, I can barely watch two miniutes of "Seventh Heaven" before the nausea starts in.

That said, it seems to me that the Christian background is an important part of the mythology of the Grail, heck it's even called The HOLY Grail. Trying to edit that out would seem like having a Batman whose parents never died.

Algernon

Sorry for the double post.

Albert> I'm afraid I don't understand what you're trying to do. How would knowing the cost of producing the second season help to promote the show or increase the chances of a third season being made? I really don't see how fans can use that information. Greg said in his latest Ask Greg response that the remainder of the Spidey crew was laid off on January 30th, so it's too late to do anything before the cast and crew are scattered. Some of them may already have new projects lined up and those who don't will almost certainly start looking for work. While it's possible that many or all of them could be able to come back were a third season approved right now, there are no guarantees.

Personally, while I'm enjoying "Spectacular Spider-Man" very much, I don't feel like I'll be heartbroken if a third season doesn't happen or happens without Greg at the wheel. I would be disappointed, but not devestated. Greg probably knew pretty early on that there was at least a possibility that he might not get to do any more episodes. I expect that season two will conclude with a kind of "open ended closure," not wrapping up every story thread, but still giving you the feeling that a chapter of Peter's life has ended and a new one is beginning. We saw some of that with the season one finale. I'd much rather that Greg get the opportunity to tell all the stories he wants to with these characters, but if not, I'll be pleased that we did get what will likely be two very solid seasons of the best Spider-Man cartoon yet.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Todd> Are there any other explanations for the Grail's history that don't include the Christian connection? I was thinking that if Greg has Shari present a couple of different possible origins for the Grail, it would take the pressure off and the audience would think "Okay, we don't know exactly what the Grail is, but we do know it's a very powerful magical object."
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Spideyforever,

How far into season one are you so far? Which character is your favorite?

David - [souiofangelus at aol dot com]

PATRICK - I don't think that Greg will touch the "Holy Blood" theory. Aside from the controversy, it belongs to the modern-day "de-Arthurianized" Grail concept that focuses on the Grail's links to Jesus and either omits or downplays its connections to King Arthur and his knights. From what evidence we have, Greg intends to concentrate on the Grail's Arthurian function.
Todd Jensen
www.gunnerkrigg.com/index2.php

In the event that spectacular spiderman doesn't get picked for season three, has anybody asked this question? How much did it cost to produce the second season? We need to keep this show going to be able to conclude it's storyline. After finding the cost, then raising awareness and cost before the team disperse. Just a thought. Hopefully someone passes it to Greg and gives me the answer.
Albert - [aasankoh at gmail dot com]

"Here may be found the lst words, of Josepf of Aramathea. He who is valiant, and pure of spirit, may find the Holy Grail, in the castle of... Ahhhhhhh."
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

Ah, the Holy Grail. But is it "san gréal" or "sang réal"? Discuss. ;)
Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Todd> Sounds like we may on something of a Grail Quest ourselves, as we are seeking the significance of the object, not to obtain it.

As for the Grail itself, I would wager it fits into a category of objects (like the Stone of Destiny) that are not mere magical talismans, but are something... more. I believe Greg has hinted in the past that the Stone isn't magical, at least not the same way that, say, the Praying Gargoyle or Eye of Odin are. It seems to me that all the magical objects were created by one of the Three Races, but I don't think the Grail or the Stone were. I think their origin is deeper and older or grander or something. Maybe the Megolith Dance fits into this category as well, though I tend to think of that as still a magical construct, bult by one of the Three Races (or perhaps the Lost Race).

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Must you humans name everything? Nothing is real to you til you've named it, given it limits..." - Hudson

Wasn't sure if my first post would be noticed so I posted twice. Just want to get it across. It took an hour to write. On Gargoyles related topic I'm getting really into it now since I missed out on it a lot when I was a younger. My brother thinks Gargoyles sucks lol.
spideyforever

Spideyforever > You already asked that question once. If people have anything to say about your idea, they'll say it.

Demonskyre > Yeah, since the Grail can talk, I'm guessing it has some kind of sentience or consciousness, and therefore maybe it does have some kind of free will, so it may be able to decide who gets immortality. If that's the case, that explains neatly why there aren't a huge number of immortal Illuminati running around (though for all we know, there could be...we don't know much about the people in the top 5 or 10 levels of the Illuminati).

Rebel

spideyforever> Your Batman 3 idea is fine, but like someone else said, this is a GARGOYLES forum.

Let's discuss Gargoyles, okay?

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

Hey tell me what you think about my Batman 3 idea everybody.
spideyforever

I might add that in the Malory version, the Grail Quest is less for the Grail itself, than for what the Grail means. The knights are seeking to understand the Grail's spiritual significance, not bring it back to Camelot.

Also in Malory, the focus is made on the high level of standards that the Grail requires of those who would achieve it. Lancelot, for example, is barred from it because of his affair with Guinevere (at one point, a hermit tells Lancelot that because of his sin, if the Grail were to suddenly appear before them, Lancelot would be no more able to see it than a blind man could see a bright sword). I suspect that Duval is now facing this - presumably, Blanchefleur hasn't been party to the darker behavior of the Illuminati.

Todd Jensen
www.gunnerkrigg.com/index2.php

Todd> Very interesting. If the oldest references to the Grail don't connect it to Christianity, it may be that Greg will go the same route. I could see Shari going over various stories about the Grail's history with Thailog, with her usual caveat that they may or may not be true. But that being said, I feel like Greg is going to have to work out some kind of backstory for the Grail so it isn't just "magical object of unknown origins." The fact that the Grail story's beginning was apparently little more than "Hey, there's a magical cup or bowl and we should go find it!" may be part of the reason addition of a connection to Christ stuck as well as it has. If Greg does decide to do something different with the Grail, I almost feel like he'd have to include something like what you just told me in the story because most people - as I did - probably think the Grail was always a Christian relic and would wonder why Greg would be changing that.

Rebel> It's also possible that there are limitations on who can use the Grail in the first place aside from the ones put in place by the Illuminati. The only people we know of currently who have gained immortality through the Grail are Duval and Blanchfluer. It's possible that any random person could take a sip from the Grail and live forever, but maybe the Grail has more say in who benefits from its gift.

Or maybe the point is that a person who is immortal is going to have a progressively harder time avoiding the temptation to do "evil things." We don't know yet exactly what the Grail's standards are or what Duval has done to upset it. (The Hotel Cabal and funding the Quarrymen may be factors, but they're relatively recent and I suspect the Grail's displeasure with Duval goes back longer than that.) Macbeth is immortal and is largely a "good guy," but I'm sure he's done some things over the past thousand years or so that were somewhat morally ambiguous at least. So maybe that's a consequence of using the Grail to gain immortality: you get to live forever, but you're held to a much higher moral standard.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

I'm not sure how I got this impression, but for a long time I thought that the Holy Grail was the cup the Romans used to catch Jesus' blood when they jabbed him with a spear.

Incidentally, there are, according to Wikipedia, several churches that have claimed to house the Grail (though admittedly not many, and it only directly describes a couple of them). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_grail

Kerry (Kth) Boyd

Just my two cents, but...

There was an early manuscript, earlier than the Arabic one, with Persian orgins. It, however, has been lost to time. And also, the title may be 'Arabian Nights', but, most likely, the whole story took place in ancient Persia. Some stories, such as Ali Baba and the Forty Theives and Aladdin, were added later when the story traveled through trade routes through the Middle East. They were never told by the true Scheherazade in the Nights. At all. It wasn't even called 'Arabian Nights' until it came to Europe.
Also, It might just be me, but, by the way Shari's face is shaped, she looks more Persian (or rather Iranian) than Arabic. Her face is narrower, while most Arabic women have a more roundish shape.

And, as for the Grail...I have no clue.

lonerider26

DEMONSKRYE - The Holy Grail wasn't always a Christian relic; it first appeared in the Arthurian cycle as just a magical vessel (it wasn't always a cup; some versions made it a dinner plate). The idea of it being the cup of the Last Supper came later on, and even then, the Grail remained a literary artifact. Nobody ever claimed to have found the Grail as a relic, as if it was, say, a piece of the True Cross or the crown of thorns. It existed solely within the context of the Arthurian legends. (The claim in some versions, including Malory, that the Grail was taken up to Heaven after Galahad achieved it would only have encouraged that tone; of course, we know that Greg Weisman doesn't follow that.) So the Grail might belong more in the company of the Round Table (which was at one point imagined as a spiritual descendant of the table of the Last Supper) and Excalibur than that of regular relics. I've seen a few pop culture take-offs on the Arthurian cycle which included the Grail (or its counterpart) simply as an object of quest, without saying anything about its Christian connotations.

Of course, many more recent versions do downplay the Grail's Arthurian connotations and focus on its links to Jesus (such as "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade" or "The Da Vinci Code"), which would make it understandable for Greg Weisman to have to take a cautious approach here. But I think he'll still treat it as mainly "the object that Arthur's knights quested after" rather than "the cup that Jesus drank from at the Last Supper".

Todd Jensen
www.gunnerkrigg.com/index2.php

Checked youtube already and just watched the first episode. I actualy saw more than the first I saw episodes 2 and 3 as well.
spideyforever

http://www.youtube.com/user/nayrusavatar?blend=1

This person has the Gargoyles episodes uploaded to youtube. Only seasons 1 and 2 are considered canon in the fandom. The comic books pick up where season 2 left off, ignoring season 3.

You can watch season 3 if you want to. Season 3 is most definitely not up to the same level of quality as the first two seasons.

Rebel

Triple post lol. Anyway my last post had a glitch and should say want to know in the middle.
spideyforever

Sorry about the double post but I what other people think about my Batman 3 idea.
spideyforever

<Phil I know what Gargoyles but I didn't the get the station it was on till LONG after it was canceled so I only saw like the 1st episode and don't know much unlike you fanboys. It is supposedly still on Jetix but I haven't seen it. Anyone know a site where I can watch them?
spideyforever

But if the Grail has so many negative consequences, then what about Blanchefleur? She'll be joining Griff and Arthur on their quest shortly, and I don't imagine she could do that if she had to drink from the grail too frequently or if she was extremely weak.

The wording of the article on Duval leads me to believe that the Grail CAN have consequences, if the person who uses it does "evil" things.

Rebel

Tony> I think one of the main themes of "Gargoyles" is that magic in general has its price and is not a free ride to Easy Street. If immortality didn't have a price, if time travel could allow you to go back and fix things, if the dead could be resurrected without consequence, if gargoyles could be made less vulnerable during the day, then everyone would be doing it all the time, which would result in total narrative chaos. It's not as much of a problem to have magic be an all-purpose problem solver if you're doing a comedy show with no episode to episode continuity (though it does raise the issue of how to get your characters into situations they can't immediately magic their way out of). But a continuity heave drama needs more boundaries. To tie this back to the discussion about death and superheroes, I've heard that some editors at Marvel insist that writers who want to bring a character back from the dead must not only figure out a reasonably plausible way to bring that character back, but also concoct an explanation for why that method can't work again. Even with death being pretty much a revolving door in superhero comics these days, it is important to establish that not every dead person can be brought back to life. Otherwise, you'd have readers wondering why Peter Parker can't just bring back Uncle Ben and put an end to the guilt that's been haunting him all these years.

Seeing how the Grail is handled in "Gargoyles" is going to be interesting, in part because it's the most direct reference to Christianity we'll have seen yet. Shari's stories have drawn on Judeo-Christian belief, but they're always presented as just stories, which she herself admits may or may not be true. I'll be curious to see how directly the issue of what the Grail is gets addressed. As a side note, Don Rosa, an extremely talented and prolific writer of Uncle Scrooge comics, had long wanted to do a story where Scrooge, Donald, and the nephews sought the Holy Grail, but he couldn't get around the issue of having to address the Grail's origins and major modern religions were rather touchy subject matter for an all-ages comics. Eventually, he discovered a legend about the Grail being part of a larger treasure stash once guarded by the Knights Templar, which freed him up to do a story with the Grail in it that didn't require him to get into what the Grail is.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Vinnie> Every time the Grail conversation comes up, I can't help but think of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. I always picture Duval like the Grail Knight in that movie where he is pretty much stuck in one room where he can't leave nor can the grail leave or suffer the consequences.

Immortality always has its price, and we know that from the episode "The Price" and "City of Stone", so I wouldn't be surprised to see that theme repeated in one way or another.

SPOILER

Those who went to the 2008 Gathering of the Gargoyles know some of the Grail's powers, and I guess it can talk because it had a role in the radio play when Greg posted the cast list. Unfortunately that's all the info I know since I wasn't there.

End SPOILER

Anthony Tini

Spideyforever> Interesting ideas for Batman 3. Since you're such a fan of Spiderman and Batman, I've got a recommendation for you. You may not have heard of it, since it was cancelled more than twelve years ago, but there was this great show on in the mid-nineties called Gargoyles. It's about a clan of creatures from a thousand years ago who wake up in New York and become crime fighters. The first season and half of the second are out on DVD. It's one of my favorite shows, and if you haven't heard of it you should check it out. Let us know what you think.
Phil - [p1anderson at go dot com]

@ Samuel: Nolan is the kind of guy who only does a movie to outdo what he did before. He stated several times that he would only do Batman 3 if the script would be better than TDK.

Raimi, whilst a good director, stated before the film he didn't like CARNAGE that much, and I guess he wanted to "close" the whole thing off, and finish all remaining strings.
Unfortunately, Raimi also isn't the best director around. :S

@ spidey: It was cool to see you're also settling with BLACK MASK and RIDDLER. Pretty nice idea, but right now, many thse things float around. Personally, I guess Nolan is writing something that is as different to what people think it'll be as with the TDK sript.

Brook

Batman 3: I think that would be a better book or fan-fiction than a movie. There was a lot going on there. I feel like it would probably turn out like Spiderman 3, wherein there were too many characters and no one got any development. (plus Spiderman 3 had some awful sequencing)
Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Noodles, anyone?

Hey Brook what do you think about my Batman 3 idea?
spideyforever

Mark Hamill for Solo performing entire Gargoyles S2!! Guy's a multi talent. :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMPdDa90pLY

Brook

If Greg aims at a dark "TDK"-like approach, I'd totally second your opinnion. :) That would be badass!!

But I guess you're not too far from reality. Either that, or the person in charge cannot leave the place where the grail is at for a long time....

I considered the original weight of the keeper of the grail/the fisherking in the orriginal Parcival, but I guess Greg won't do it.

Brook

My current belief is that the Grail's power isn't permanant. The more you drink the less effective it is at restoring life, not to mention the more you have to drink to stay alive. After so many years of drinking from the Grail Duval probably has to drink from it every couple of hours.
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]
Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them quite so much.

<Brook Here's my Batman 3 idea

Black Mask is buying out Wayne Industries. Bruce Wayne fires company genius Edward Nygma because he thinks the technology he's making too dangerous and Nygma becomes the Riddler to get revenge and teams up with Black Mask. When Bruce Wayne is giving a speech at a public ceremony for Wayne Industries Riddler interrupts and says "What's loud and makes a big boom"? during the panic Bruce escapes and changes into Batman and attempts to stop Riddler from setting off the bomb but fails and the mayor and many other innocent people are killed. Gordon doesn't blame him but Harvey Bullock and the rest of Gotham PD do. Riddler wants to find out Who is the Batman? Meanwhile, assassin named Talia Al'Ghul wants revenge for what happened to Raj in Batman Begins and uses to Bat-Signal to lure Batman into a trap so she can assassinate him. They battle and she unmasks him but he kisses her and they fall in love. However they don't realize Riddler and Black Mask has the fight on surveillance and Riddler now knows Bruce is Batman. Riddler then sets up a trap for Batman by attempting to rob a Wayne Industries lab with a bunch of henchmen. However, Gordon and other police show up first and during the car chase Riddler yells to Gordon "What's black and blue and all blown up"? He pulls out a bomb and yells "Your corpse"! He throws the bomb, the police car explode and Gordon dies. Bullock blames Batman and the police hunt him down. Meanwhile, Garfield Lynns an ex-employee of Wayne Industries who was working on a fire proof suit is working for Black Mask and they stole his old project from the lab and gives it to him and he becomes Firefly. Riddler then hacks the Batcave computer and they go in and Firefly sets bombs all over the place and sets Wayne Mansion on fire. Moments later it explodes. Bruce arrives and finds the rubble. At Wayne Industries Riddler shows up on all of the television and asks Bruce who is falling and who is rising. He says Bruce is falling and Black Mask is rising. A fire errupts and Bruce escapes and Wayne Industries explodes. Batman and Talia battle Riddler and Firefly. They win but Black Mask comes and shoots Talia for joining Batman. Batman then battles and defeats Black Mask. He goes to a dying Talia and she says "Fight to the end beloved" he kisses her and she dies. The poice and arrive and arrest Riddler and Firefly and Black Mask. The camera then shoots to a scene where Bruce is lying flowers at Talia's grave stays still for a minute or two and walks away. We then see Batman on top of a tall building and we hear police sirens and Batman glides off.

spideyforever

@ Greg B.: I thought it over: a LOT of the remarks she makes ("I'm parial to long stories.") make a LOT of sense.

Though, I find it hard to believe that the top 10 has immortality near them. I thought of the top 5, probably top 6 to be the lucky ones to drink from the grail. Before I read the comics, I had the image only the top 2 (or 3) had access.

Don't get me wrong, I don't find that theory illogic or untrue - just a bit hard to swallow at first sight.

(apart from that we might come across Dracula and Sherlock Holmes in the top 10 then also)

Brook

That's also what I was leaning towards. I was thinking her immortality came first, and then her membership in the Illuminati came after that.
Rebel

Greg B> Well, as of yet, we don't know what qualities Shari might have that would make her valuable to the Illuminati. If we assume that we is Scheherazade, all we really know is that she was queen of Persia at one point and that she's good enough at telling stories to keep the Shah's mind on what happens next in the story and off of killing her in the morning. I would assume the number of kings, queens, and other potentates who were members of the Illuminati is vastly outnumbered by the one who were not. I'm not saying Scheherazade wouldn't have had abilities or qualities that would make her appealing to the Illuminati; I just don't know that anything we know about her from the traditional story makes her stand out as Illuminati material.

Or maybe we're thinking about this backwards. It may or may not be the case with Shari, but it seems possible to me that some Illuminati members aren't immortal/extremely long lived because they're valuable to the Illuminati; rather they're valuable to the Illuminati because they're immortal/extremely long lived. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that Macbeth got an invite somewhere along the way and turned it down. Demona might have managed to stay under their radar by virtue of being a gargoyle, or maybe she just had no use for joining a "human secret society." But I'd be willing to bet that immortality would make both of them individuals that the Illuminati would be very interested in recruiting.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Why are some of you assuming that the Illuminati have age-slowing drugs rather than age-stopping drugs? We have no way of knowing what they have at this point. They may have both. Just because we have seen some elderly looking members of the Illuminati doesn't mean they don't have age-stopping drugs.
Rebel

Algernon> Well, Shari was really only described as Arabic in the scripts, not in the comic itself. So, Greg can easily change that since her ethnicity was never outright stated in canon.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Genetic engineering helps us correct God's horrible mistakes, like German people." - Mr. Garrison

Brook> Here is a very novel concept. How did she get her hands on immortality? Maybe, just a hunch, maybe, the Illuminati thought she'd be a valuable addition and recruited her. How about that?

I know, I know, that's crazy talk /sarcasm.

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Genetic engineering helps us correct God's horrible mistakes, like German people." - Mr. Garrison

Of course, the title of the work that Scheherazade comes from, "The Arabian Nights", could have thrown Greg Weisman.

But it's also possible that Shari is an analogue to Scheherazade, in the same way that the ColdTrio are analogues to Othello, Desdemona, and Iago, that Coldstone is an analogue to the Frankenstein monster, that Dingo is an analogue to Prince Hal, etc.

Todd Jensen
www.gunnerkrigg.com/index2.php

Greg B: It's unlikely that Shari is the actual Scheherazade. The original Scheherazade was as you said, a Persian while Shari is explicitly described as Arabic. These are two completly diffirent ethnic and cultural groups. It would be the equivelent of depicting Hercules as a mythic Hungarian hero.
Algernon

@ Greg B.: Now, that is quite an interresting rumour going on... could make sense, but... well... yeah, BUT!!! :|

Dunno, it just seems a bit... unlikely... I mean, how did she get her hands on immortality? Or the holy grail? OK, this might be upcomming... still, I think it could be uite a stretch...

Brook

@ spidey: Look up the interviews with the writer, can't remember his name, but he gave various ideas why it had to be Darkseid. (Joker would NEVER kill the Batman. Never. Not in a hundred years. His job is to kill Robins.)

What causes them to go and become Batmen we do not know just yet. :(

Shoot it out.

Oh, and I have Nolans email, next to Aronofskys, but I as told to not further spread them, sorry. :(

Brook

"Same goes with Bad Guys #5 and #6."

Sorry for the typo. I was still falf-asleep. That was supposed to be 'Gargoyles #8 and #9." Whoops.

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

The Goliath Sculpture is really, REALLY cool, but $275 American??? Geez, why so much?!?! I would buy it in a heartbeat, however... :( I just hope the Chip N' Dale and Gargoyles ones from Elektrik tiki aren't that much...
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

Sean > The individual comics are not going to be released. They will, instead, be published in the tradebacks as 'bonus material'.
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

Sean Tobin> "I've check SLG's site and issues five and six are not posted on their site for Gargoyles: Bad Guys. Did I miss these issues somehow?"

No. Those issues haven't been released yet and in fact will only be available via the TPB. Same goes with Bad Guys #5 and #6.

Hope that clears things up for you.

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

Alright I read Greg's post on the 29th about the TPB's being done. I've check SLG's site and issues five and six are not posted on their site for Gargoyles: Bad Guys. Did I miss these issues somehow? Because my comic book suppliers are reliable guys and have stated that financial issues were causing publication delays. So my question is did the individual issues ever get published, or was that scrapped because of low sales and since everything else was set a TPB was just put through? Same goes for issue nine of the Gargoyles ongoing series; I have up to eight and have been curious about issue nine publication.
Sean Tobin - [sean dot staubin at gmail dot com]
Sean M. Tobin

Greg B > Ah. I missed that theory somewhere. Very interesting indeed. Thanks for that info.
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

Sorry for the double post.

Litwolf> Well, the popular, and most likely theory is that Shari is Scheherazade from "1,001 Arabian Nights." A legendary Persian queen. The oldest Arabic manuscript dates from the 14th century, scholarship generally dates the collection's genesis to around the 9th century.

So, if this is indeed Shari's identity, she's been around for a long time.

Also, in #8 of "Gargoyles," Macbeth toasts "Here's to the immortals." ::Page change:: "There aren't too many like us," imposed over a panel of Shari.

The girl has been around for a long time. I think that's safe to say, especially considering her rank.

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Genetic engineering helps us correct God's horrible mistakes, like German people." - Mr. Garrison

Spideyforever> I doubt Christopher Nolan's e-mail address is public. And, even if it was, he doesn't need you to send him an idea for Batman 3. I'm sure he's got plenty of his own ideas.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Genetic engineering helps us correct God's horrible mistakes, like German people." - Mr. Garrison

While it does seem very likely, how certain are we that Shari isnt the age she appeares to be? Since the Illuminati seem to have age slowing drugs rather than age stopping drugs, even if she took them right away, she looks really young to have been on them for very long. She would have had to start the drugs and joined the Illuminati at a young age. Yet she rose to an extremely high rank. Hm... she certainly is a puzzle. Thats why I so enjoy her character! ^_^
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

Brook<I'm way more into Marvel than DC so I don't read much DC just watch DC based movies and cartoon and know most of my characters from the DCAU but a few questions

1. Two-Face and Hush are good guys now what caused that?

2. I read the wiki Darkseid killed him of all people it why was it a Superman villain that's just another excuse for Sups to kick Darkseid's ass shouldn't it have been Joker, Penguin, Bane, Ra'j Al Ghul Black Mask, or another longtime Batman villain?

3. Want to see my idea for Batman 3?

4. You know Christopher Nolan's email so I could send it to him or how I could find out(tried Google nothing)?

spideyforever

We'll probably have to wait for the trade paperback to come out (boy, am I ever looking forward to it), but I suspect that Duval's problems stem less from immortality itself, and more from the Holy Grail disapproving of his running a secret society that makes deals with organized crime, runs the Hotel Cabal, admits people like Xanatos, Thailog, and Castaway, and finances an anti-gargoyle hate group (not to mention having six hundred and sixty-six membership slots).
Todd Jensen
www.gunnerkrigg.com/index2.php

@ spidey: He dies a pretty dull death in FINAL CRISIS 6. From what I've read, a lot of fanboys were shocked at the way he died, because it was so un-Wayne'y. You gtta read for yourself, but it is a bit of a dull read, really.

R.I.P. only handles his psychological deconstruction, but handles it better than FC with his death, IMHO.

In the future, we'll see different Batmen, also Two Face and Hush will don the cap.

It IS kinda dull, but might work...

As for Bruce... I think there can't be a second Batman.
That said, I would hope he comes back, but IF he is to come back, it should be through a logic device. Not some crappy time travel s***. If, then they'd rather leave him dead and let Hush be the new Batman.

Brook

Phoenician > Thanks for correcting me. I guess I got confused.

In that case, I'm even more confident that Mace Malone probably didn't have access to the best that the Illuminati have to offer.

RebelP

Rebel -- According to the Gargwiki, Malone was supposedly in the high twenties.

Third Race -- While there's little doubt that Oberon's Children are naturally immortal beings, I do beleive that is is Canon-in-Training that it is possible for them to be killed (Oberon was close, evidently, in "I'll Met By Moonlight).

And then there's the question that they may not necessarily be immortal, but they just might have ridiculously long life-spans.

Phoenician
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka

Mace Malone probably doesn't have access to the best medicines that the Illuminati has to offer. After all, he was only in the high teens. I imagine that people at the highest levels in the Illuminati have access to much more powerful methods of staving off death. For all we know, Quincy Hemings only looks elderly because that's the age he was when he started taking the drugs or using the Grail. Just because he looks old now doesn't mean he's necessarily done any aging in the past 50 years or so. Furthermore, since Hemings occupies a position in the White House and has been around the same people for years, he may not take any rejuvenation medicines at all. It would be suspicious to them if he didn't age or aged extremely slowly.

So, basically, the idea that he was old when he started taking the drugs or that he's not taking them at all are both possibilities. We can't use Hemings' elderly appearance as an indicator of the effectiveness of the Illuminati drugs.

Additionally, I suspect that although Duval and Hemings are both at the same level, Duval probably has more authority. Duval is probably the de facto leader (assuming position number 1 is vacant) whereas Hemings is the "other number 2". Thus Hemings may not have access to the Grail whereas Duval does. But who knows?

Anyway, I also suspect that Shari's youth is a separate arrangement.

Rebel

Duval> If he does have "true" immortality (as in not just an extended lifespan and still strong enough at his age not to be knocked over by a gentle breeze), I'm guessing there has to be some kind of drawback or we'd have a lot more immortal Illuminati members. It's possible that the "real immortality" treatment is reserved for only the top members, but nonetheless, I figure there has to be some kind of catch. Even Alex Xanatos will likely discover that living forever has its downside.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

<Brook Bruce is dead are you serious? Probably not permanent though. Superman's died what 5 time already I lost track. How did he die because that would be a great idea for Batman 3.
Anyone want my idea for Batman 3?

spideyforever

It seems to me that all the Illuminati does is slow down the aging process, hence Malone and Quincy are still fairly elderly looking. I also suspect that Shari's youth is a seprate arrangement. I haven't "met" Duval yet, so I won't comment.
Algernon

The Iluminatti don't live forever. they just can extend thier life spans for many years.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

Death and immortality> I think the Illuminati doesn't have genuine immortality. I'm under the impression that the members, including Duval, are able to take routine drugs or sips from the Grail that allow restoration and prolonging the lifespan. I can't say this is definitive, but I can see it working.
Asatira

From the gargwiki:

"Percival/Duval founded the Illuminati at some point in the early 7th century, and continues to be one of its leading members even today. He has survived down through the centuries by continued use of the Holy Grail, although, because of the unscrupulous activities of the Illuminati which he, as a high-ranking member, must bear partial responsibility for, he has paid a heavy price, the exact nature of which is unknown but apparently involves some sort of physical weakening. He spends much of his time in the Grail castle of Carbonek."

This seems to suggest that the price he has paid has more to do with his role as Duval than with his use of the Holy Grail, since the page for Blanchefleur makes no mention of any consequences (though there may be some). Interesting.

Rebel

I forgot to add my comments on the off-topic discussion.

I have no problem with off-topic conversations here. But, if it doesn't get a response, I say leave it be. If people are interested, they will comment. There is no need to fish for responses. Actually, I think this is a good rule of thumb even for Gargoyles-related questions, not just off-topic discussions. Bring up your question/idea/topic at a later time if you want and see if it gets more responses, but if it doesn't get any initially, it means that nobody is currently interested in talking about it. So leave it be for now.

Rebel

Rebel > Very true. I think the theory is that the Illuminati (sorry if thats spell wrong) have the Holy Grail allow their favorite members to drink from it. At least, thats what I remember hearing, please correct me if I am wrong. I wonder if the Holy Grail has any unfortunate side effects...
Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

There are also (I think) some people in the Gargoyles universe who have gained immortality from drinking from the Holy Grail. They haven't appeared in the comics yet, as far as I know. I doubt they gained immortality with no strings attached, but we'll see.
Rebel

Greg B > Oops. My apologies, I know that Oberon's Children are not called Fae. Sorry, I just finished reading a book in which they were termed Fae and I applied it by mistake to Gargoyles. I will not do so again.

So Oberon's Children seem to be the only ones with a true grip on immortality.

Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

It is also an interresting question (at least for those concerned) if then Bruce Wayne should stay dead.

Although I would like a dead GARGOYLES protagonist to stay that way (Xanatos, Goliath, Brooklyn - all shall remain buried once they're dead), I think here is no way to have a Batman that is not Bruce Wayne. Even though the series will now center on Nightwing, Jason Todd and even Two Face and Hush being Batmen - in my eyes, it is doomed to fail.

Also, I don't want lex to be Xanatos 2.0. I don't think he will be, but looking at other sons of comicbook characters, I always have been bewildered as to how they were the spitting image of their fathers.

Brook

Litwolf> What's a fae? That term never gets used in the series, and Greg W has said it's not quite accurate.

Why did the fandom as a whole embrace that term for Oberon's Children?

We even have a section for it on our Misconceptions page at the Wiki:

http://gargoyles.dracandros.com/Misconceptions_and_urban_legends_about_Gargoyles#Fay_is_a_term_for_the_Third_Race

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Register for the Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Genetic engineering helps us correct God's horrible mistakes, like German people." - Mr. Garrison

the taste of true life ever again.

Jean Grey on the other hand gets restored to perfect health, gets absolved of all responsibility for her sins and pretty much pick up her life like nothing happened.

Death for Othello was the end of life as he knew it and the beginning pale shadow existence in an alien world. Death for Jean Grey just means her mail's been pileing up.

Algernon

Adding to Demonskrye's list of 'immortal but with a cost', Xanatos in Future Tense finally achieved immortality but only by becoming a computer program. And, in 'The Price', there is a chance for immortality with that cauldron but only if one is turned permanently to stone.

Truly, the only ones who have immortality with no price seem to be the Fae. They cant die or even be killed its seems. And the only true downside is that they have to listen to everything Oberon says. Those with Fae blood have a kind of immortality as well. Not Fox, because her magic had died long ago, but her son, Alex, is able to live to the Space-Spawn attack so he has a kind of long life. And they are able to give immortality, as they do so with Demona and MacBeth.

If Xanatos wants immortality all that much, he should really make a deal with a Fae it seems.

Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

Death and Gargoyles> I'm with Todd on this. Even though death can sometimes be cheated in the Gargoyles Universe, it is generally permanent and when it is circumvented, it is never without some cost. The majority of the Wyvern Clan is dead and, according to gargoyle faith, in some kind of limbo because no Wind Ceremony has been performed for them. (I wonder if it's possible to have a Wind Ceremony without the actual remains, or if the fragments of the slain gargoyles are still around somewhere? If either is the case, I'd imagine that one of the first acts of the new Wyvern Clan would be to perform a long overdue Wind Ceremony for their fallen ancestors.) Katharine, Tom, the Magus, and the eggs were able to live longer than normal in regular Earth years by traveling to Avalon, but they will all probably still die one day and the Magus has already given his life to protect his family. The Archmage was able to use time travel to cheat death once, but it didn't save him from dying eventually. The Coldtrio were brought back to life, but Coldstone is a combination of machinery and reanimated stone and the other two are souls in robotic bodies. They live deprived of many of the senses and small pleasures we take for granted. Demona and Macbeth are the only mortal character to really achieve immortality, but Demona's extended life has still not allowed her to achieve her goal of destroying humanity and by the time we meet Macbeth, he's ready to commit suicide. The Captain f the Guard and Hakon die but manage to remain in this plane of existence as ghosts. Yet both are trapped until the Captain recognizes that he's been corrupted by Hakon's desire for revenge and Hakon's plans lead to his own exit from the mortal world.

Part of the reason that death has become so meaningless in superhero comic books is that most are handled by multiple writers over time, each of whom has different ideas about which characters are expendable and different pressures from editorial and the fans to kill off characters or resurrect them. "Gargoyles" does have a slightly more flexible vision of death than in the real world, but because it has the single creative vision of Greg Weisman behind it, the possibility for deaths being reversed is much much lower.

Brook> I don't think it was ever directly mentioned in "Grief" that the Emir could not reverse either his son's death or the deaths Jackal had caused. But we never see him do it and the general message of the episode seems to be that Anubis's powers cannot be used to return the dead to life. Jackal killing the people in the nearby village is more canon in training as it's not shown; the only deaths we actually see in the episode are the crocodiles and (I think) the palm trees.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

@ Todd: You sure about that? Not that I don't believe you, but if this was said in the orriginal show, they cut it out over here. :S
Brook

In "Grief", Anubis refused to bring the Emir's son back to life, and when the Emir finally became Anubis's avatar, not only did he realize that he could not use Anubis's powers to do that, but also, while he was able to restore the cast to their original ages, he could not bring back to life those who had actually been killed by Jackal-as-Anubis (the palm trees, the crocodiles, the people in the village).

So death is presumably permanent in the Gargoyles Universe (Coldstone is an unusual case - and he's not exactly alive, being trapped in a body of animated stone and machine parts).

Todd Jensen
www.gunnerkrigg.com/index2.php

@ Matt: Just wanted to clarify, the first post wasn't on Bruce Waynes death, but the last BATMAN run. His death doesn't occur there. I was just very, very amazed by that run, and can tell everybody who loves the Joker to go buy it. They nailed him here.

Oh, and I'd be mad if Greg W brought back Goliath after his death. Out of, uh, various reasons...

Brook

@ Matt & Algernon: I just found it a bit dull, that one of the most popular and most, uh, "consistently alive" comicbook heroes dies, and nobody seems to take notice of it. Not only here, but in the complete media.

Therefore, that link you posted, Algernon, is quite true, and your sentiment, Matt, is also prettyspot on: after the death of Superman (at least from what I know), it was pretty done. Superheroes could and would return from the dead. "No big deal."
I've not followed the X-Men comics that much, but from what I've heard, they've all been dead at least once.

What also brings us back to GARGOYLES - does death have ANY power at all in comic books?
With Gargoyles, we have a villain that cannot die and one that was put together and brought back from the dead a la Frankenstein.

Is death in the Gargerse something permanent?

Brook

RE: Death in comics

Check it out...

http://www.floatinghandsstudios.com/xmen1.html

Algernon

I certainly have no issue with off-topic conversation in here. What caused me to comment on the Bruce Wayne thing was that the off-topic point was made and no one responded so the writer posted again expressing disbelief that no one commented on the off-topic point. There was no malice in my post. I was merely pointing out a very good reason that no one had responded to his comment and was pointing him in a direction where perhaps he'd have better luck with that particular conversation. Chasing the writer off was never my intent. *shrugs*
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Must you humans name everything? Nothing is real to you til you've named it, given it limits..." - Hudson

Brook> I pretty indifferent to death in mainstream superhero comics, esspescialy when it applies to a really popular characters like Batman. Lets face it he'll be back like nothing happened in time for the next movie, same for Captain America.

Death in comics is the equivelent of taking a year off college.

Algernon

Let's not turn this Carnage mess into an excuse to jump down the throats of every person who makes an off-topic comment. My issues with Spideyforever had to do with him being rude to other people in the comment room, extremely quick to anger when he felt his views were being ignored or attacked, and unwilling to talk about anything but a single topic and the very limited number of points he had to make about it. I do not think every off-topic comment should be immediately met with "This is a Gargoyles comment room and we only talk about "Gargoyles." Every internet forum has its off-topic discussion. How do you think the comment room kept going during the many years when there was nothing going on with the franchise? As I see it, we can either accept the off-topic conversation and just not comment if we aren't interested, or discourage all off-topic conversation and increase the frequency of "Gee, it sure is quiet today."

Brooklyn in 2198> Again, I think the best solution would be to have him learn one or two things about his future, then realize that the knowledge hasn't really made him happy and resolve not to actively seek out any more information about himself or his clan. I think most people in his position would at least be tempted to find out some information, so it will be important to make Brooklyn's reluctance to do so understandable.

Incidentally, I wonder if the 2198 cast knows who Brooklyn is right off the bat? It's possible that he doesn't explain his situation to everyone he meets on his timedancing adventures, just to keep life simple. ("Hi, I'm a time traveling gargoyle from 20th century New York." "Oh that's nice. Would you like to come in and have some soup?") So maybe Brooklyn doesn't immediately reveal that he's a time traveler from centuries past. It's possible that someone might take a look at old photos of Brooklyn and Fu-Dog from the 20th century, read up on Brooklyn's time-traveling exploits, and put two and two together, but maybe this isn't their first priority given the little space-spawn issue they have to deal with. Of course, Demona would probably recognize Brooklyn right away, but maybe there's a little time between Brooklyn's arrival and Demona being recruited in which he can keep the secret of his identity.

Here's another time travel question. Since Brooklyn will return to his own time with full knowledge of the coming space-spawn invasion and the battles that will follow, do you think he might do anything to try to help his clan get through this future crisis? He can't change history, of course. He can't stop the invasion from happening or prevent the abduction of the eggs and clan leaders because that is what happens. But maybe there's minor stuff that he does to aid the resistance and himself in battle. Of course, since Brooklyn has already been to 2198, he would already know upon his return home that he needs to do these things at some point, or he'll eventually realize that some of the good fortune he may have experience during that time was actually due to his past actions. ("So it must have been me who buried that time capsule we found.")

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Superheroes die all the time (and come back a short time later).
Unless one of the Batman actors died, it's not particularly surprising.

I think Brooklyn not finding out about the past is due to the already mentioned spoiler reasons. someone might even comforted by knowing what is coming and experiencing the good times that much more intensive.

Anonymouse

Brook, like we told Spideyforever, this is not the place for stuff like that. I really dont care about Batman, he was my least favorite superhero.

Anway, back to Gargoyles...

Algeron - Im still laughing after reading that earlier. That was so perfect! And a perfect example of one would not want to know their own future.

Rebel > Im with you. I mean, there's a few things that I could see him trying find out, like whether or not her gets a mate. But stuff like dying or injuries or anything like that, why know and then be terrified for the rest of your life of your death?

Litwolf
<Be happy for me and for all who fly free.> - Tobias of Animorphs

Sure, I just wanted to point out that after all this is a cultural comic icons death. And in a comment room concerning an ex-animated-series-now-comicbook and a currently ongoing animated series of a comic book, I thought it was worth mentioning.
Brook

This is a Gargoyles Comment Room.

Have you tried a Batman Comment Room?

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Must you humans name everything? Nothing is real to you til you've named it, given it limits..." - Hudson

Uh, guys, Bruce Wayne is dead and nobody CARES TO EVEN MENTION?????????

BRUCE EFIN WAYNE IS DEAD!!

Uh, discussion?

Brook

Rebel> That is interesting that the Wiki says that. I may have to change that. I'm pretty sure that all Greg has ever said is that the clan leader tends to be one of the pendant wearers. I dunno.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Must you humans name everything? Nothing is real to you til you've named it, given it limits..." - Hudson

Just reading BATMAN 676 - 681!!

HOLY EFFIN EFF!!!

Joker: "Don't... call... me... SERVANT!!"

All I gotta say is: I'm impressed!! :O

Brook

@ Algernon: *laughs*

I can *see* it!!

Brook

Sorry for the double.

I just noticed this on the gargwiki page for the Mayan Sun Amulet:

"The clan kept the Mayan Sun Amulet safe for a thousand years, passing the pendants on from one group of four gargoyles in a rookery generation to the next."

Given that Zafiro and Obsidiana are 20 years older than Jade and Turquesa, isn't it more likely that there are TWO pendant wearers in any given rookery generation, rather than four? Then, once the two oldest pendant wearers have reached a certain age, they pass their pendants on to two gargoyles from the rookery that is a generation younger than the (formerly) youngest pendant wearers? That makes the most sense, since the group of pendant wearers would never be an entirely new group; at least two of them would always be experienced.

Rebel

To better illustrate what I'm trying to say:

If you were about to watch a movie, would you want someone to spoil all the major plot points for you or would you want to just watch the movie and see what happens?

Brooklyn will probably avoid finding out about his future because he doesn't want spoilers for his own life. I think this is a perfectly good reason and, personally, I don't need any other reason besides this to feel satisfied with Brooklyn's decision not to learn about his own future.

Rebel

There's probably alot of stuff Brooklyn wouldn't want to know anyway...

NICK MAZA: Hey, You're Brooklyn! I remember my dad telling stories about the time you got your arm ripped off.

SAMSON: Nick!

BROOKLYN: What did say about my arm?

Algernon

I don't see what the big deal is. I don't think Brooklyn needs any kind of special justification for why he doesn't want to learn about his own future. If he knew all about his own future, then he would live his life dreading the bad things to come and eagerly anticipating the good things. Nothing would be a surprise anymore and life would become merely waiting for the next thing to happen.

I mean, if you were in Brooklyn's shoes and you had the ability to know whether/when you're going to meet your future mate, when you're going to die, when you're going to get to go back home, etc., would you actually want any of that information? If I were in his shoes, I'd be really curious about it, but for the sake of my own sanity, I'd try to avoid finding anything out so I could discover it for myself as it happened.

Rebel

Brooklyn in 2198> I am fairly certain that Brooklyn is aware that the course of history is fixed by the time he gets to 2198. Even if Goliath hasn't told him about his own experiences with time travel, it seems that Brooklyn would have ample time to figure out that particular fact on his own. The presence of Fu-Dog would seem to indicate that Brooklyn has had a few adventures prior to arriving in 2198. And the solicitation for "Phoenix" - the twelfth issue of the "Gargoyles" comic - suggests that he will be dealing with these issues pretty early on. So personally, I don't think Brooklyn's desire not to learn about his future and the futures of his clan stems from a misguided fear that he might alter the course of history.

What I would like to see is Brooklyn actually learning something particular about the future in 2198 (Demona still being alive and fighting alongside the resistance could serve that purpose), having to deal with the consequences of knowing it, and then making the decision not to actively try to learn anything more about what happened in the years leading up to 2198. That would make a lot more sense to me than having him be set on not learning anything about his own future from day one of his 2198 stop.

Of course, the real behind the scenes reason that Brooklyn wouldn't want to know anything about the years since his departure is that - ideally - 2198 would be running concurrently with the main "Gargoyles" storyline and possibly other spin-offs. So making Brooklyn aware of what had happened in the past could result in major spoilers for the audience. But I'm sure that Greg will come up with a convincing in-universe argument for Brooklyn's decision, should he be given the opportunity.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

And away we go on with the show!
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]
Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them quite so much.

10.
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D. Taina
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Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Must you humans name everything? Nothing is real to you til you've named it, given it limits..." - Hudson

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Noodles, anyone?

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Phoenician
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Spen
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