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Gargoyles

The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending March 1, 2010

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If TimeDancer proves you wrong, you owe me twelve dollars.
Harlan Phoenix

PAUL> Princess Katharine is not a robot. Just fyi.
Greg Bishansky

Speaking of "You're a dead man, Hakon," I wonder why she singled out Hakon. My guess is that he just happened to be the one who grabbed her and said that the gargoyles were there, and she was under a lot of stress in any case. Maybe it's only in retrospect that the Captain was just as much of a dead man.
Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]

Who are we to presume we are 'meeting all their needs'? I agree with Jazz, nothing beats the sweet taste of freedom. Some need that to thrive.

I really really gotta start going through the series again, I feel left in the dust so very often with the discussions here but reading them fuels my urge to reacquaint myself.

Madame M

I am happy katherine became nice
Emily - [poogleann at yahoo dot com]
Goliath you and I aren't so different we're hated by the normal people outcasts attacked by those who refuse to get to know us (Romania the vampire from my gargoyles in Romania fic)

I figured Katherine's line "You're a dead man, Hakon." referred more to the fact she knew exactly what the remaining gargoyles would want: revenge. Pure and simple. It's hard to shed years of propaganda and fear in a single night, but I think her abduction, the massacre, the fact Goliath rescued her, the fact the last remaining gargoyles were magically turned to stone and the fact 36 eggs would have no one to raise them hit her pretty hard. This was only the beginning of her "transformation" as it were, and I'm sure only after a lot of soul-searching and living life outside of her sheltered, high-class, royal lifestyle helped her to realize that her own prejudice had a lot to do with what happened at Wyvern.
The Barracuda

I can't wait I am going to get the newest gargoyle comic
Emily - [poogleann at yahoo dot com]
Goliath you and I aren't so different we're hated by the normal people outcasts attacked by those who refuse to get to know us (Romania the vampire from my gargoyles in Romania fic)

I think Katharine's turn-around in thinking concerning the gargoyles came when she was tied up in the cave and talking to Hakon and the Captain. She knew the Captain had betrayed them. She knew that most (if not all) of the gargoyles had been destroyed. And she knows she has little chance of getting out of the situation alive. And then suddenly, miraculously, some gargoyles show up. You can see and hear Kath's turn around right there. "The gargoyles?! You're a dead man, Hakon!" Right there she realizes the protectors the gargoyles always were and continue to be. They clearly are coming to her rescue here despite her treatment of them and Goliath's rescue on the cliff only reinforces that feeling. So her saying "We've done ya a great wrong" references her treatment of the gargoyles and her realization that she was mistaken about them all along.

I mean, right?

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" -Sevarius, 'Louse'

PATRICK> <<It could probably be debated how closely Katharine was paying attention to the conversation while she was being dangled over the cliff.>>

Yeah, I find it amazing how some people, not naming names, expect other people to behave like completely logical robots all the time.

Greg Bishansky

THE WHALE WILL KILL US ALL
Emily - [poogleann at yahoo dot com]
Goliath you and I aren't so different we're hated by the normal people outcasts attacked by those who refuse to get to know us (Romania the vampire from my gargoyles in Romania fic)

I think the outlook's pretty bleak for that whale, whatever happens. As others have said, they can't release it. I can't see them continuing to use it in displays, so its interaction with humans is going to be taken away or vastly decreased, meaning it's going to be more like a prisoner than it was before. It might not have been able to roam the ocean and hunt, but at least it had some sort of stimulation when it was being trained to perform ~ maybe not ideal, but certainly better than what it's got now. And of course killing it's hardly an ideal option.

The comment about using him in their breeding programme worries me. It sounds like this particular whale has certain natural tendencies for hunting that are stronger than the other captive whales, making it less suitable as a captive animal ~ that's not a trait you want to be passing on to future whales that will be kept in captivity. Unless the whales they breed are released into the wild? (I don't know anything about their breeding programme, so am assuming they keep the whales they breed ~ if not, that might be a bit different!)

I think the damage has been done now, and there's no perfect solution as to what to do. The mistake was having this particular whale in captivity in the first place, but then they had no way of knowing he'd be like that until the first incident took place, by which time he'd probably have been so reliant on humans he couldn't have been released anyway.

I've never had a problem with captive animals, as long as we look after them properly and meet all their needs. Incidents like this make me wonder if we actually can meet all the needs of an animal such as a Killer Whale. I've been to Sea World in San Antonio once, and the whales looked healthy and happy enough, and didn't seem stressed when they were performing ~ I guess when we see them performing and interacting so well with humans it just helps us forget they're still wild animals. I think this incident will have been an eye opener for a lot of people (including myself ~ even though I knew they were natural hunters, it still shocked me when I heard what had happened. Not because I thought the whale was at fault, but because I just wouldn't have expected something like that to happen.)

Louise

That whale could drown 50 people and they still wouldn't euthanize it because the PETA folks would go ballistic. Sea World doesn't want that kind of press. They can't set it free, either, because that would be a death sentence. After 20 years being fed by people, would have no idea how to survive in the open ocean and it has also lost it's natural wariness of humans.

It could probably be debated how closely Katharine was paying attention to the conversation while she was being dangled over the cliff.

Patrick
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

On the Seaworld topic, imagine being in a prison where they provide you with food and the necessities of life. But they take away the most essential thing: freedom. Living in a large pool at Seaworld is nothing like the openness and freedom of the ocean. Prisoners look at prison as a form of torture. So a degree, I believe the animals look at things the same way.

In my opinion. Its not the animal's fault. They are called wild animals for a reason.

Jazz - [clarkejasmine05 at yahoo dot com]

Reading all the comments here makes me realise just how rusty I am on the plotlines in the show... There are so many things brought up that I would never have thought about!

On the topic of Katharine ~ I hadn't ever thought she might have made the connection with the Captain's betrayal, but it does look like that would be the case.

I'd just thought she'd heard about the Gargoyles contribution to security numerous times from the Captain and had been choosing to ignore it. I'd got that impression when they were in the dining hall and the Captain had said that the Gargoyles deserved the credit for saving the castle. I'd got the impression she was being stubborn, feeling sick to the back teeth of hearing the Captain forever praising the Gargoyles. Then the castle was attacked during the day, and the Gargoyles suddenly weren't there to protect them ~ and she learned the hard way that the Captain had been right. It was all very well to slate the Gargoyles while everything was hunky-dory in her own little self-centred world, but when the castle came under attack during the day, she was forced to see the truth. She then realised that she did need the Gargoyles, and realised just how much they had done to protect the castle, despite the way she continuously put them down. And despite the horror of what had happened to the rest of the clan, Goliath still didn't just leave her to her fate.

This would have explained why she changed her mind from 'beasts in the dining hall' to 'we have done you a great wrong' in such a short space of time and why she would want to apologise for the way she'd treated the Gargoyles, but then if she didn't know about the betrayal she wouldn't have had any reason to feel guilty about what happened to the clan during the attack, and it did sound as though she was feeling responsible for that when she apologised.

(And that's a very long-winded way of me saying, Paul ~ I think you're right!)

Louise

L.T Williams - You're right; Hakon was in on the plan to lure the gargoyles away from the castle, and it is likely that he knew that it was partially successful.

Which means that he knew all along that he couldn't possibly find them all before dusk, and that he was taking a foolish chance by slaughtering those he did find...

Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]

Paul - Didn't Hakon know that Goliath and maybe a few more gargoyles were lured away from the castle by a handful of his own men?
L.T. Williams

Missed you guys...
My thoughts on Tilikum:
I think my own opinion on the Sea World tragedy is a bit fferent than most here? Keeping an animal like that in captivity is rough. How can we begin to replicate it's natural habitat? I realize the science and the research aspect of it all but still.. and now that he's been in captivity, setting him free would be worse. How many hours, dollars, basic man power went into freeing Keiko, Free Willy's Orca? Keiko got a taste of freedom but check out his story online sometime. He wanted to be around people and he just didn't make it very long. I'm glad though that Tilikum was not killed. Not sure what the answer is but I know sometimes I feel uncomfortable around such venues.

Madame M

Here's my take on Hakon's line about the gargoyles not following him: The pedestals on which the gargoyles sleep do seem to be rather differently designed than the rest of the battlements, so I think it is quite plausible that Hakon could have noticed (too late) that seven of those pedestals didn't have gargoyles on them. At the very least, he would have noticed that Goliath's perch on top of the highest tower was vacant; it's pretty hard to miss. (I assume that it WAS vacant, although one of the other gargoyles did take Demona's perch...)

As for Katharine, she had to know that the Captain had faithfully served her father and herself for more than ten years, and that he admired Goliath. So I think it's quite possible that she made a connection between that and the Captain's betrayal (which happened very shortly after she demoted him for his association with Goliath).

Besides, even after he betrayed her, he still did everything in his power to keep her alive, i.e. suggest holding her for ransom, even though it was contrary to Hakon's wish to simply kill her. And then, when the Captain tried to explain himself to Goliath ("It was not supposed to be this way; I told you to take the other gargoyles with you!"), Katharine may have guessed that the betrayal was for Goliath's alleged benefit, not Hakon's. (Hakon's subsequent attempt to lay the blame for the massacre entirely on the Captain undoubtedly confirmed, if any further confirmation was necessary, that the two of them weren't seeing eye to eye.)

Besides, it strikes me as odd that Katharine would go from "We are most seriously displeased; to allow beasts in the dining hall!" to "We have done you a great wrong, Goliath" in a mere two days, unless she realized that her previous insult was the catalyst for the Wyvern Massacre.

Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]

Harvester Of Eyes> Maybe I shouldn't have said that. I think it would be better if SeaWorld never used Tillikum again.
Gargoyleslady - [kendal dot renfro at yahoo dot com]

Gargoyleslady: But why did you refer to their statement as an excuse?
Harvester of Eyes
"DO NOT INTERRUPT! There! Happy now? Look what you did! Now you don't get to go on the murder crusade!" -The Monarch

Harvester Of Eyes> SeaWorld has already said they will not have Tillikum destroyed and trainers are currently not allowed in the water with the whales until the investigation is complete.
Gargoyleslady - [kendal dot renfro at yahoo dot com]

Gargoyleslady: I can see how your comment would be misconstrued, though. You describe the reason Seaworld is keeping the whale alive as their "excuse," which suggests you're in favor of its death.


My own thoughts on the matter are: I agree that everyone understands the risks of what they do, and if they don't, they should. If you're going to knowingly step into the domain of a creature that can kill polar bears (and does, in the wild), you have to be prepared for unpleasant possibilities. So we shouldn't fault the whale for doing what it was born for.

Harvester of Eyes
"DO NOT INTERRUPT! There! Happy now? Look what you did! Now you don't get to go on the murder crusade!" -The Monarch

CONCERNING TILIKUM -- Playing something of a devil's advocate here, in that I live in the same state as the park where the incident happened.

The reports from some eye-witnesses -- as quoted in the local papers -- was that the whale was acting out of sorts and "non-responsive" during earlier performances. It could be Tilikum was agitated in some way prior to the attack.

It's also stated by the officials at Sea World have also gone on the record to say that Tilikum -- being a 20-year old male, and a valuable part of their orca breeding program -- will neither be destroyed or released into the wild. They are, however, investigating and will be reworking their safety and handling procedures, to make certain there won't be a repeat of this situation in the future.

I should point out that some professionals have said, even if Tilikum had been released back into the wild, there is an outside chance that, given his contact and being around humans for as long as he has had, he'd be a greater danger to any people out on the open ocean; boaters, kayak enthusiasts, scuba divers, etc.

I personally wouldn't want him destroyed, but I do hope that he's isolated from the other whales and never put back into the performance shows. With his involvement in three trainer deaths, he shouldn't be given the chance to make a fourth.


-- Stephen

Stephen Sobotka
"I believe everyone does what they do with good intentions in mind. No one ever wakes up one morning and says 'I'll be a villan' today.'."

DEMONSKRYE - Since you mentioned the Muppets "Boom!" titles, I wanted to say that I recently read the "Muppet Robin Hood" series in its "trade paperback" format (I checked it out of the local library to save money, I'll confess), and thoroughly enjoyed it. It's an extremely funny take, with a lot of great ideas, such as the form of Prince John and the Sheriff of Nottingham's tyranny in England during King Richard's absence being a lot of garish tourist traps (some literal) - such as a museum of socks (with the suggestion that this is where all those missing socks from the laundry go) and an exhibition of the world's largest Venus fly-trap. But probably my favorite line is when Robin Hood (played by Kermit) has been captured and is about to be hanged in Nottingham town square, the crowd is protesting his death sentence, and the Sheriff (played by Sam the Bald Eagle) indignantly tells them to stop it: "We are going to watch this frog die a painful, horrible death like civilized people!"

(As a minor curiosity, the book includes a couple of the lesser-known members of Robin Hood's band - Much the Miller's son and Arthur a Bland (played by Scooter and Rizzo the Rat respectively) - who usually don't show up in these kinds of treatments.)

I'm looking forward to "Muppet King Arthur"; I've already seen previews of the opening pages of the first two issues; Sam the Eagle again provides one of the best bits. (Kermit, playing Arthur and serving as Sam's squire, is instructed by him to go fetch him a new sword, since Sam's blunted his sword in training exercises. When Kermit asks why they can't just sharpen the sword, Sam indignantly says that it's important to go out and buy a new one rather than just reusing the old sword; it's part of their duty to stimulate the economy.)

(From what I've seen of the previews, the cast for "Muppet King Arthur" includes Kermit as Arthur, Fozzie Bear as Sir Percival, Gonzo the Great as Sir Lancelot, Camilla the chicken as Queen Guinevere - appropriate casting indeed for setting up the Love Triangle, Rowlf as Merlin, Miss Piggy as Morgan le Fay, and Kermit's nephew Robin as Mordred - the last one definitely casting against type, but it fits the family kinship.)

Todd Jensen

PAUL> What's your interpretation of it? You're a good poster, but you seem to ask us to interpret things for you a lot.
Greg Bishansky

I have some questions about the Captain and Hakon. When the survivors of the massacre attacked the Vikings' camp, Hakon said "You said they wouldn't follow us!" This strikes me as odd, since I would think that Hakon would be more surprised that any gargoyles had survived at all. Did the Captain tell him that he had missed a few, or was he just panicking, or what?

Another thing: Did Katharine figure out that her mistreatment of Goliath had led to the Captain's betrayal? It seems to me like that might be part of what she was referring to when she said "We have done you a great wrong, Goliath." (Of course, it was also because of the Magus' sleeping spell, but Katharine had nothing to do with that.) And she was well within earshot of the Captain and Goliath when they had their last argument, so I suspect that she might have figured out that the Captain's motive for betraying her was her earlier mistreatment of Goliath.

Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]

I'm not saying they should kill it.
Gargoyleslady - [kendal dot renfro at yahoo dot com]

Let me make sure I understand this logic here.

We put a natural predator in captivity. It acted like a natural predator. So now you want to kill it as punishment for acting like a natural predator.

I like corn!

Harlan Phoenix

Gargoyleslady> I see no reason to kill a whale just because a trainer did something wrong, and got killed. They're called *Killer* Whales for a reason.

Dawn Brancheau knew the risks when she took the job, and I don't think she'd want the whale killed.

For you to say they should kill it is, in my not so humble opinion, quite disgusting.

Greg Bishansky

okay it is cool looking and its fun to imagine it comes to life at night XD
Emily - [poogleann at yahoo dot com]
Goliath you and I aren't so different we're hated by the normal people outcasts attacked by those who refuse to get to know us (Romania the vampire from my gargoyles in Romania fic)

Rebel> SeaWorld's excuse for not euthanizing the whale Tilikum is that he's, as their president put it "part of the team".
Gargoyleslady - [kendal dot renfro at yahoo dot com]

It sounds as though your friend's teasing you in good nature ~ I wouldn't imagine they would be trying to offend you and buying you a present at the same time! They've obviously put some thought into getting you something they know you would like. I'd definitely take it in good humour.
Louise

Gosh, I wish my friends would bring me presents from France to tease me.

Honestly don't see why you would be offended. If your friends is just poking mild fun at your fondness for the show, I would just brush it off and accept the gift.

Demonskrye - [<---"Toy Story 2" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

So recently a friend of mine bought me a stone gargoyle in france and gave it to me as a gift teasing me about liking the show should I be offended or what
Emily - [poogleann at yahoo dot com]
Goliath you and I aren't so different we're hated by the normal people outcasts attacked by those who refuse to get to know us (Romania the vampire from my gargoyles in Romania fic)

Phil> I buy the BOOM! Muppets titles regularly and I pick up some of the Pixar books from time to time. They've been doing a very good job on the comics I've read. In the past, I've agreed with Greg Wiesman's assessment of the situation: SLG currently has an interest in producing Gargoyles comics, while BOOM! has yet to express one. (Same with Marvel.)But I do agree that BOOM! talking about a Disney Afternoon line does open the door a crack. It's not a sure bet; Gargoyles is still a very different animal from even the other Disney Afternoon properties. But it could be a way to get BOOM! to at least consider adding Gargoyles to their lineup.

The big question is whether or not SLG is still pursuing a graphic novel deal with Disney and whether those discussions are going anywhere. I know the last thing we heard was that Dan Vado was talking with Disney, but it has been a while and nothing has chanced. There is a chance that the reason we haven't heard anything yet was that all parties involved were trying to figure out whether the BOOM! deal would be for all Disney Afternoon shows or just a select few. If the latter is true and BOOM! has passed on Gargoyles then maybe we'll see the SLG deal get rolling. But that's just one possibility among many.

Ultimately, I would like to see new Gargoyles material, whatever form it comes in. If it was up to me to pick which publisher got the license, I'd go with BOOM!. I have absolutely nothing against SLG and I think it's amazing that we go a comic at all. But a lot of what I've been hearing from them recently leads me to believe that they are not on solid financial footing right now. While Gargoyles did sell well for them, the licensing fees meant it wasn't profitable. If the company's future is uncertain, it may be better for them to refocus on their core publications rather than pursuing another big licensing deal. The Disney deal was a very new thing for SLG, who didn't really have (if I remember right) any prior experience with licensed titles. It was a learning experience, with a lot of bumps along the way. BOOM! currently has several licensed books to their name and seems to be avoiding a lot of the problems that SLG had on Gargoyles. I don't know all the facts, but it seems to me that BOOM! is in a better position to take on a project like this.

If a new SLG deal isn't looking likely, I think the best thing would be for something like what happened with MechaNation to occur: everyone involved deciding that the comic being published at SLG isn't in the cards right now, Vado giving his blessing, and the comic finding a home with a new publisher. Again, it's not a given that BOOM! is interested just because they are publishing other Disney Afternoon titles. But if nothing s happening with SLG, it's worth a shot.

Demonskrye - [<---"Toy Story 2" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

I agree with Rebel on the Killer Whale topic. As long as the animals in question are properly looked after, including a living environment which has enough space and is stimulating enough to prevent any form of stress or boredom, I don't have a problem with it. I think the danger comes when people forget that these are wild animals that have certain wild instincts that you can't completely train out of them. I don't know if that's what happened in this case (I haven't heard anything about what actually happened, though I'd imagine the trainers would be well clued up on Killer Whales and would know how to work with them) but it's a potential danger when dealing with any large animal that naturally hunts. It can be only too easy to train an animal to fit in so well with the human lifestyle, that we forget it was designed to fend for itself out in the wild.

Todd ~ I couldn't help thinking about Gargoyles when we did Macbeth in school. I think Glamis Castle would definitely be a worthy location for a Gargoyles tour. There's some basic information about the castle here: http://www.glamis-castle.co.uk/index.cfm
It's a bit of a trek from where I live just now, but my next uni placement (starting September) is in Dundee, and I'm thinking a trip to the castle will definitely be in order. (On the very slim off-chance any other Gargoyles fans will be around then, let me know!)

Louise

Does anybody here read the Boom Kids! Disney comics? They publish titles for the Muppets and most of the Pixar movies, as well as the standard Mickey, Donald, and Uncle Scrooge comics. It's not Carl Barks, Floyd Gottfredson, and Don Rosa, but they're still a lot of fun and I enjoy them. In the January editor's column there was an intriguing note at the end. It said, "In the months to come we'll be announcing some amazing new projects from Walt Disney, Pixar, and BOOM so continue to watch this space! In the meantime we'll leave you with this teaser. Disney Afternoon! The best is yet to come!"

Since the Disney Afternoon was a big part of my childhood (well, actually college years) I'm excited, and I can't help but speculate: DuckTales, Rescue Rangers, Tale Spin, Gummi Bears, maybe even Gargoyles? One thought I've had is that Greg W might not want to put all his eggs in Dan Vado's basket. Boom already publishes a dozen Disney titles, so I'd think that if they want Gargoyles as part of their Disney Afternoon project they're likely to get it over SLG.

I can already hear those who are worried that Boom would sanitize Gargoyles. The February editor's column has an interview with Jesse Blaze Snider, a Boom Kids writer, who said, "I say that Pixar movies and the Muppets were never meant for kids. They were meant for EVERYONE and our comics are no different." If Boom did a Gargoyles title, I wouldn't expect the language and bloodshed to remain at SLG levels, but they wouldn't be all butterflies and rainbows either. I think it would be similar to the animated series, actually. The closest thing Boom publishes now is The Incredibles, and in my opinion it's done very well. And if Greg W were onboard, I'd have no worries whatsoever about the comic, no matter what Boom's S&P are.

I hope everyone reads this carefully. Boom has NOT announced a Gargoyles title, they've only hinted at a Disney Afternoon project. But if I were Greg I'd contact Aaron Sparrow at Boom Kids ASAP. (Anyone with Greg's personal contact information might want to give him a heads-up in case he doesn't see this.)

Phil - [p1anderson at go dot com]

GargoylesLady > I don't have anything against killer whales, or any other wild animal, being kept in captivity as long as they receive proper care and proper precautions are taken to protect their human caretakers. But, I think when an animal repeatedly exhibits aggressive/dangerous behavior, it's foolish to keep that animal around. That particular killer whale had evidently already displayed aggressive/dangerous behavior long before he ever killed that trainer. They should have done something about him the first time he ever caused trouble and this would have never happened.

There will always be an occasional situation in which a captive animal's first display of aggressive behavior is enough to result in a death, and that's unfortunate, and there's nothing we can do about that. But most animal caretakers understand that their job entails some kind of risk, however small.

Rebel

alright sorry I'm just saying if it was them they are jherks
Emily - [poogleann at yahoo dot com]
Goliath you and I aren't so different we're hated by the normal people outcasts attacked by those who refuse to get to know us (Romania the vampire from my gargoyles in Romania fic)

Emily> The term "fae" is not accurate. It's a term that caught on like wildfire with the fandom back in the late 90's. But Weisman has said it's inaccurate because it doesn't encompass the Third Race.

So, Oberon's Children, Children of Oberon, Thir Race, etc. These are more accurate terms.

Gargoylelady> My opinion is... that the idiotic media will forget this story in two days when the next celebrity couple breaks up, or the next time Obama sneezes. Which ever comes first.

Greg Bishansky

Off topic question. As everyone here probably already knows, a Sea World Orlando trainer was killed on Wednesday by the park's whale Tilikum. What's the opinion of killer whales being kept in captivity?
Gargoyleslady - [kendal dot renfro at yahoo dot com]

wow freaky the faes were jerks XD
Emily - [poogleann at yahoo dot com]
Goliath you and I aren't so different we're hated by the normal people outcasts attacked by those who refuse to get to know us (Romania the vampire from my gargoyles in Romania fic)

A while ago, I posted a list of locations for a hypothetical "Gargoyles Tour of Scotland" to visit, one of which was Glamis Castle (which was never featured in the series, but which is associated with Macbeth and Duncan - more through Shakespeare than through history, though). This week, I received the latest issue of "British Heritage", which included an article on Glamis Castle.

According to the article, a legend states that the builders of Glamis Castle originally intended to build it on a nearby hill called "Hunter's Hill", a favorite spot of the "little folk". The "little folk" did not want the humans building their castle there, however, and removed the stones every night, undoing the work, until at last the builders got the message and built the castle on a different spot (the location where it now stands).

Although "little folk" is more likely to suggest some branch of the Third Race, I could not resist playing around with the possibility that the hill was a gargoyle roosting-place and that the gargoyles were the original of the objecting "little folk", particularly because all their work took place at night. (Though I think that gargoyles would be more likely to hinder the construction by swooping down on the builders' camp after dark with eyes blazing than to simply remove the stones - and there's nothing that little about gargoyles - with one or two exceptions such as Lexington.)

Of course, the name of Hunter's Hill made it stand out all the more from the perspective of "Gargoyles", particularly since, not only was Glamis Castle believed to be the site of Macbeth's murder of Duncan (under the influence of Shakespeare), but it's known that Malcolm II (better known to us as Maol Chalvim from "Avalon Part One" and "Clan-Building" #10-#12) died there (in his day, the castle was a hunting lodge) in 1034, an event that the article mentioned. (It suggested that he expired from battle wounds; I've long suspected that in the "Gargoyles Universe", Duncan might have contributed to Maol Chalvim's passing.) Glamis seems all the more appropriate for a "Gargoyles Tour of Scotland" than ever.

Todd Jensen

Antiyonder ~ thanks for the link! I have a funny feeling my studying might be somewhat 'affected' tomorrow...

Vicky ~ I didn't realise there had actually been a hurricane in the UK. I vaguely remember hearing something about tornadoes reported somewhere in the south of England once, though... I'm just glad it's not something I've ever experienced! I probably should never again complain about the rain or snow (or the midges when it's sunny!)

Our village seems to have its own weather system. I couldn't get out of the village yesterday, yet there was no snow on the ground in some of the surrounding towns (about 20 minutes drive away). I'm just glad my placement supervisor lives in an area that had heavy snowfall too, otherwise I doubt she'd have believed me.

Louise

well I am curious lol I made my own clan from Romania a friend drew them for me so here is a link please tell me what you think and if you have a DA account comment

http://nebulan.deviantart.com/art/Romanian-Gargoyle-Clan-154933220

Emily - [poogleann at yahoo dot com]
Goliath you and I aren't so different we're hated by the normal people outcasts attacked by those who refuse to get to know us (Romania the vampire from my gargoyles in Romania fic)

Joking aside, I believe Harlan Phoenix is correct. Some versions of the series bible identify Brooklyn as the Goliath second-in-command. And since "Study in Stone" is essentially shortened series bible descriptions of the main characters in comics form, Michael Reaves - who wrote the comic - may have included that factoid without anyone involved with the show - Reaves included - realizing that it was not yet the case and would actually be the subject of a later episode.
Demonskrye - [<---"Toy Story 2" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

Algernon> And that's why Ezekial is the best book of the Bible ever.
Harlan Phoenix

And John 3:16 says "And the Lord said let there be football. And lo, on the seventh day, He looked down upon the end zone, and He saw that the kick was good." That's why you always see people holding those signs at the games.
Patrick
"And if life is just a highway, then the soul is just a car. And objects in the rear view mirror may appear closer than they are." - Meat Loaf

HARLAN> Indeed it was, in Ezekial 23:20. ;)
Algernon

Wasn't Brooklyn's status as second in command established in the bible?
Harlan Phoenix

Just reread the Disney Adeventures story Study in Stone. Not sure if it's a question submitting to Greg, but for those who read it know that Brooklyn is declared as Second in Command even though the story predates Upgrade. Spoiler given out by mistake or was it assumed that Brooklyn was the SiC?
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
Algernon's comment about Norman Osborn: One of the neat things about Dark Reign is that it gives Osborn the chance to expand his horizons beyond tormenting a twenty nine year old who still lives with his mom.

Louise ~ Yeah I'm fed up with the snow, haven't got any now but heard we getting more at the weekend, I can't wait till it gets a bit warmer. You said we don't get Hurricanes, tornados ect we have actually, ok not big like USA do but we have had a hurricane in 1987 and there have been a few (small) tornadoes over the last few years.
VickyUK - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]

http://avalon.gargoyles-fans.org/ftp/pictures/comics/

Here's the comic links, as well as the ones for the comic stories appearing in Disney Adventures.

Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
Algernon's comment about Norman Osborn: One of the neat things about Dark Reign is that it gives Osborn the chance to expand his horizons beyond tormenting a twenty nine year old who still lives with his mom.

Antiyonder ~ thanks! I'd be interested to see that link to the old comic. I only vaguely remember it, as it was a while ago.

I'm so glad we don't get hurricanes, tornadoes, ice storms, etc. here! The worst we had to cope with was snow causing chaos on the roads this past week. The main roads were driveable yesterday, but the roads in the village were awful. A bus got stuck turning out of the village, completely blocking the only road in, and another bus and a lorry got stuck under the bridge further up the road, meaning nobody could get in or out. As a result, I got a day off placement, and missed what would probably have been the most interesting day yet. I liked the snow at Christmas, but I'm sick of it now and definitely ready for summer!

Louise

yikes sort of like hurricane gustav a couple years back only instead of being cold we were sweating where I lived and the mosquito's sucked man
Emily - [poogleann at yahoo dot com]
Goliath you and I aren't so different we're hated by the normal people outcasts attacked by those who refuse to get to know us (Romania the vampire from my gargoyles in Romania fic)

Andrea....back when I ke hit Houston we had no power or water for 2 weeks....now that is fun.

I hope you didn't get dammage at your house.

Sahyinepu

Well, I haven't had anything interesting to post in the past few weeks so I've been hiding in the shadows. Man did I have an interesting night.

It was rainy and windy all day yesterday, with pretty strong winds. My boss is the closing manager and I'm reliving and she's also comming back in the am to work the day shift. Shift handoff goes fine, we expect it to be dead due to the weather, but that didn't deter people.

My job for the night entails working overstock from the backroom. I get back there probably 10:30 or so (I start at 10 pm), and just as I am about to start, the power cuts off for a second. I go back down to check on the registers, and unfortunately, they rebooted, so I stayed downstairs to make sure they came back up okay. During that time, my cashier and I have to go put the sliding doors back on the track (which occasionally blow off when it's really windy, it's an easy fix). A few minutes later once the registers come back on and we handle the line, the weakest one not only blows off the track, but gets thrown in the opposite direction of it, and literally RIPPED off the hinge that hold it to the inside frame. Seriously, this door is almost 7 feet tall and heavy, and the metal is torn and bent at that corner, effectively rendering the door broken for the night. Thankfully, there is another set on the inside.

So right after that BS, I get a phone call...our head cashier, can't make it to work in the AM as she's being driven to the hospital. Luckily we had someone else set to come in that hour so we wouldn't be short on the bare mimimum coverage, and while I'm texting my boss with this info, the power goes out. For good.

I finished my text before doing anything else (so my didn't have to wait 20 min for my message), but between my cashier and the pharmacy people, they took care of getting people out of the store for me.

So now we play the waiting game. We have emergency lights, but they only last a few hours. We're all stuck there until at least they die out, after which my boss wants a call, and then we can all likely go home.

But oh, wait, the broken door. Well, we can't secure the place with it like that, so 2 people have to stay all night, and by default and store rules, it's the pharmacist and the supervisor...lucky me. At this point, we're not likely to get power back before daybreak, so I let my cashier go home.

Armed with flaslights, my pharmacist sits in her box with a battery powered radio, while I'm keeping an eye on the front door listening to my iPod and playing on my DS (and getting paid for it). With no more emergency lights, you can't see more than about 4 inches in front of you, it's that dark.

Boss wakes up around 5:30 and calls me to see how we are, she's on her way and will be there at 7 as scheduled. She's without power too (she lives like 45 min away), and she heard apparently more than 300,000 people in New Hampshire were without power due to the wind knocking down trees and powerlines everywhere. We already knew from the radio over 100,000 were without power in my local area as well. This is like ice storm Dec '08 all over again (feel free to look that up with it's devastating power outage effects).

Anyway, boss ended up taking pictures of the broken door because her boss didn't really 100% believe that, yes, the door was ripped of the hinge and irreparable.

So after doing pretty much nothing productive all night, I go home at my scheduled time, and there's no power at my house either. Damage from wind is evident in place, and the worst thing was one big tree that fell and damaged 2 cars. There were fences flipper over, bend siding, and singles off some roofs. Boss lady said apparently in her area, they got up to 70 Mph.

I went to sleep not long after I went home, since I was bored and cold. Power just came back on about an hour ago, so now I don't have to freeze my buns off in the house.

Man, what a night. Now I know what it's like to camp out in a drug store overnight!

Andrea - [SailorV77 at yahoo dot com]

Will Ask Greg open back up for Gargoyle related questions any time soon?
Sahyinepu

But Ask Greg is only open for Spider Man questions? Waaaaa. I had a follow-up question/comment from my question about Yinepu/Anubis from 2003.
Sahyinepu

RE: Australian Gargoyles

Considering that the Shaman in Walkabout didn't seem at all surprised by Goliath and Angela, I'm guessing the Aboriginal Australians have had dealings with gargoyles in the past.

Algernon

OMG XD your right the message says on a mirror objects in mirror are closer than they seem
Emily - [poogleann at yahoo dot com]
Goliath you and I aren't so different we're hated by the normal people outcasts attacked by those who refuse to get to know us (Romania the vampire from my gargoyles in Romania fic)

With Greg's issue of Spider-Man hitting stores this week Ask Greg is back open to take questions.
Gorebash

Harvester of Eyes> "To answer one of your questions, the last time I was living in a place with a cable hookup, they were showing Gargoyles at either 3 or 4 AM on either ToonDisney or Disney XD. I don't know what the current schedule is."

It's still weeknights on DisneyXD (formerly Toon Disney) at 4 AM. The upcoming episode is "Revelations."

Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

Emily: Because I'm spiking the punch bowl?


Lady of Shallot: I can tell you from experience that asking questions in S8 usually works better for me. Chances are the question's already been asked anyway, and the turnaround time is a lot better.

To answer one of your questions, the last time I was living in a place with a cable hookup, they were showing Gargoyles at either 3 or 4 AM on either ToonDisney or Disney XD. I don't know what the current schedule is.

Harvester of Eyes
"I don't know, I'm making this up as I go." -Indiana Jones

If Puck used the passenger side mirror, would the spell actually be closer than it appeared?
Patrick
"And if life is just a highway, then the soul is just a car. And objects in the rear view mirror may appear closer than they are." - Meat Loaf

Puck looking in the car mirror in "The Mirror" -- I beleive this moment was actually more plot-driven . . . couldn't he access Titania's Mirror through any normal mirror? If that indeed was the case, I beleive he channeled his latest transformation spell to change the Manhattan Clan (who were carrying Titania's Mirror) into humans . . .

That's at least how remember the episode . . . it's been about a year since I've last seen it . . .

Amazing Spider-Man #622: Don't know if I'll be able to grab this in time to enter a review in the queue, but [SPOILER] knowing its a Flash Thompson-focused (and how I really enjoyed his characterization in TSS-M) [/SPOILER], I'm looking forward to the issue :D

Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible . . . I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka

Antiyonder here.

Louise> The recent comics are indeed a continuation of the show by Greg Weisman (who was producer of the first two seasons). And at the risk of sounding like a broken record, purchasing the following trades is the best chance at a continuation of the series:

- Gargoyles Clan Building Volume 1-2
- Gargoyles Bad Guys

As for the other comic you mentioned, Marvel did a noncanonical Gargoyles comic during the 90s. I have to leave to catch the bus in a bit, but when I get back in here, I will link you to a site which contains scans of that comic (provided that no one does before me).

Greg B> I don't know which exactly is her final appearance, but I believe the last time Sha Shan was acknowledged before now was ASM Annual #21 when Flash gave a brief account of their relationship.

Anonymous

Greg Weisman has just had "Ask Greg" opened so that people can give their reviews of the "Amazing Spider-Man" issue he wrote, though stressing that it's strictly temporary, for that purpose.
Todd Jensen

Emily ~ I didn't like the 3rd season either. It didn't come close to living up to the high standard set by seasons 1 & 2.

I've not read any of the comics, but am sorely tempted to order the 1st two volumes of clan building. I vaguely remember a comic that was produced while Gargoyles was still being shown, and it didn't seem to follow with the storylines of the show. Are the new comics similar, or do they follow straight on from where the show left off?

Louise

Does anyone know the official status of "Ask Greg"? I know it is closed for now, but is that just temporary, or more a permanent thing?
Sahyinepu

England didn't found their first penal colony in Australia until the late 1700s. By that time, I'm guessing there weren't many clans left in England and the ones (or one) that did survive were probably trying to avoid being noticed by most humans.

I believe Greg said at one point that there were once gargoyle clans on every continent except for Antarctica. So gargoyles were probably in Australia well before the British showed up. As for what they looked like, I would look at figures in the Aboriginal legends and faith and see if anything could potentially resemble a gargoyle.

Demonskrye - [<---"Toy Story 2" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

Um... there were people and animals and stuff in Australia before the British started using it as a dumping ground.
Patrick
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

okay what would a clan from austrailia look like since the british used the place as a prison at first the clan could be like griffs clan only it be like kangaroo's and dingo heads
Emily - [poogleann at yahoo dot com]
Goliath you and I aren't so different we're hated by the normal people outcasts attacked by those who refuse to get to know us (Romania the vampire from my gargoyles in Romania fic)

Emily> It's just kind of the nature of the comment room that some comments go by without much response. Happens to everyone, even people who have been here for years. It's seldom that anyone is deliberately ignoring you; people may just feel like they don't have anything interesting or helpful to add to what you've said. The easiest way to get a response is usually to ask a question, since that makes it clear what kind of reply you might be looking for. Other than that, it's just a matter of waiting until someone feels the need to comment on something you've said.
Demonskrye - [<---"Toy Story 2" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

Emily...go in the chat room and I will talk to you...

sah

Sahyinepu

why do I stay here noone talks to me anymore
Emily - [poogleann at yahoo dot com]
Goliath you and I aren't so different we're hated by the normal people outcasts attacked by those who refuse to get to know us (Romania the vampire from my gargoyles in Romania fic)

Q: "The story is told -- though who can say if it be true --" is that a Greg Weisman story telling device or did he borrow it from somewhere? Thanks.
Anthony Tini

Todd> Yeah, sorry. I realised after I posted that bodyswap was not actually what I meant. The idea that I came up with was pretty much the same as yours, is all I meant.
Supermorff

Sahyinepu> I don't remember the particular rationale this time around, but Ask Greg has generally been closed to new questions for two reasons. One is to give Greg time to catch up on the questions that have already been submitted. Right now, there are over 200 in the queue, so this may well me a factor. The other has been if there is no new material to discuss at the moment. I think this is usually I reason alongside the queue getting backed up and may be more of a reason that the submission feature is sometimes restored even where there are a lot of unanswered questions in the queue. If Greg has something new out - a new show or a new issue of the comic - fans will be allowed to submit questions again so that they can discuss the new material.

As for your actual question, it's been ages since I watched "The Mirror," but since Puck spends most of his time as Owen, it may have been years since he last saw his true reflection. So maybe he's just taking a moment to admire it while he has the chance. Not a definitive answer; just me thinking out loud.

Demonskrye - [<---"Toy Story 2" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

BTW....Been searching "ask Greg" for the answer...can't find it.

I would post the question to Greg, but Ask Greg is shut down for the time.
Any reason for why that is? Todd, anyone?

Sahyinepu

I have an odd question....

did Greg ever mention the significance of Puck's looking at his own reflection in the car side mirror in "The Mirror"?

Sahyinepu

Since Landon mentioned the Nostalgia Critic's shout-out to Dr. Facilier's song, I have to ask this to everyone around here who actually saw The Princess and the Frog. Considering his/its shapeshifting abilities, was anyone else slightly annoyed that the Shadow Man (not the doctor himself, mind you) never took on a large, muscular, bat-winged form?
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

SUPERMORFF - I don't think that "bodyswapping" is the correct term here for my idea about Peredur and Duval, but I'm not certain if there is a good term for it as yet. It was just an attempt to explain how both can be Percival, as the evidence suggests.

BISHANSKY - I haven't read the Spider-Man comics, so everything that's happened in them should be news to me - but I certainly hadn't known that Flash had lost his legs in their continuity until I read your post. That was a definite jolt.

Greg finally got to see my little joke about what could be in store for Owen (alluding to the incorporation of one idea from the original comedy development - Coco and Amp - and my recollection that in the original comedy development, Owen gets turned into an anthropomorphic aardvark), though he admitted that it took him a little while to get it. (Oddly, his response suggested that if that happens to Owen in "Gargoyles" canon, it would be through Sevarius's Mutate experiments; I'd always assumed that if it happened to Owen in "Gargoyles" canon, it would be through a disastrous training session with Alex.)

Todd Jensen

I am trying to carefully avoid Greg B's review of Amazing #622 until I can get my hands on a copy, but I just checked the credits on another site and the guy who drew the other story is a friend of mine. (Well, more friend of a friend, though still a very nice guy who I just don't see that often.) I knew he was going to be doing some work on Spidey, but I didn't know when it would start. So double the reason to buy the book. Yay!
Demonskrye - [<---"Toy Story 2" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

Okay, "Amazing Spider-Man" #622 came out today, and it features two stories in it. The first written by Fred Van Lente. The second written by Greg Weisman.

I figured I'd post my review here.

***

Okay, I'll admit right off the bat that I didn't particularly like the first story in here. The goth/vampire scene was doomed to begin with... and as much as I love Black Cat, I think the way her relationship with Spidey is being handles is just wrong. So, Van Lente's story was doomed from the start with me.

Now, the second story, the Flash Thompson story, was pretty damn good. A very human story. A very moving story. This is a story lots of veterans are facing every single day now, and as such I liked it. More than that, I was very appreciative that the story ended with Flash making the most of his situation, and not taking some easy way out. When real veterans get new legs, then Flash Thompson should be allowed to. Not before. Yes, I know this is comic book land, but when a story is done on a realistic level like this, I think it's cheap to fix it with comic book science.

But, on top of that, this is the Peter Parker I have been missing a while. A stand-up guy who does the right thing by his friends. Yeah, he and Flash had their ribbing going on, but none of it with venom. Just two old friends who had known each other forever, even if the history was colorful. This was the Peter Parker I always enjoyed reading, and the one I've been missing since OMD.

As a continuity whore, it was fun to see Sha Shan Nguyen again. Has she been in the comics since the 80's? I know she was in season two of "The Spectacular Spider-Man" as Flash's love interest.

Overall, it felt like a "Spectacular Spider-Man" story being told in the 616 universe with the characters ten years older. This is a good thing. I hope Marvel gets Greg Weisman to write more issues of Spider-Man, because he writes the characters the way I like to read them.

First story gets a D
Second story gets an A+

***

And to tie this in with "Gargoyles," it reminds me of Jason Canmore and why it always annoys me when I see fanfiction fix his legs.

Greg Bishansky

I hope to get the comic soon. It sounds realy good.
Sahyinepu

I hated the third season I like the comics mainly because you can get away with a little more than you can on television
Emily - [poogleann at yahoo dot com]
Goliath you and I aren't so different we're hated by the normal people outcasts attacked by those who refuse to get to know us (Romania the vampire from my gargoyles in Romania fic)

lady of shalott> In answer to your other question, Greg declined to work on The Goliath Chronicles - the third season of Gargoyles because he was offered less control over the show and an extremely tight schedule. The full story direct from Greg is here:

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=649

I don't think Greg has ever said it directly, but it sounds as though someone who was at Disney at the time really wanted him to leave the show for whatever reason. (Again, that's my conclusion, not anything Greg has said outright, so far as I know.) As he said in the answer above, Greg wrote and story edited the first episode of The Goliath Chronicles and was paid as a creative consultant, but asked that the screen credit be removed. As I understand it, at least some of the people working on TGC were aware of what Greg wanted to do with the third season, which is what the SLG comics ended up being, but they chose to go in a different direction.

Demonskrye - [<---"Toy Story 2" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

HELLO WORLD
Emily - [poogleann at yahoo dot com]
Goliath you and I aren't so different we're hated by the normal people outcasts attacked by those who refuse to get to know us (Romania the vampire from my gargoyles in Romania fic)

Todd> I also had that notion re: body-swapping Duval and Peredur, although I'm not sure it really holds up. I also, very briefly, wondered if Peredur was Duval and Blanchefleur's son before remembering "fab Ragnal, right, never mind".

I re-read Greg's original comments on the Arthurian survivors, and I'm now struck at some of the wording he used: Duval is the Fisher King, but not explicitly the King of Carbonek (as Blanchefleur is Queen of Carbonek). Also, while Blanchefleur lives there, Duval only spends a lot of time there. Most importantly, Duval is referred to as the founder of the Illuminati, but not its leader. I don't know what any of this means - maybe nothing - but I find it interesting.

Because of the confusion, I felt the need to separate out the Percival page on GargWiki from the Peredur page. You might like to work your usual magic and add a real world background for the character (or move some sections from the Peredur page or whatever).

Supermorff

lady of shalott - Welcome! Just so you know, Greg doesn't like answering questions in AskGreg that have already been asked in the past. All of yours have been asked before, but asking them in the comment room is perfectly fine! You can check previous answers in the FAQ, Browse the Archives, and Search sections.

1) Greg regularly tries to pitch Gargoyles as a new TV show, so he definitely hasn't given up. New comics from SLG are currently our best shot at getting new Gargoyles stories.

2) If you're in the US, Gargoyles is still shown early mornings on Disney XD: http://tvlistings.zap2it.com/tv/gargoyles/EP00120512 A VCR or DVR is your friend. There's also the DVDs and Netflix.

3) The comics are great and I highly recommend them. Last we heard, SLG is negotiating with Disney to make Gargoyles graphic novels, but there hasn't been any news in a few months on that.

4) The biggest hurdle is that Disney owns Gargoyles and they choose how and when it gets made and released. Another hurdle is simply the lack of interest. If enough new fans become interested in the show, Disney will produce more DVDs, make more comics, start another show, greenlight a movie, etc. The best thing you can do is spread the word about Gargoyles. Tell friends, family, and online folks how great the show is and we will increase the fanbase. Buying the SLG trade paperback comics is the single best way to support Gargoyles at the moment since that's the most recent attempt to make money on the property. Entertainment executives take the comics industry seriously, so there could be residual benefit from a successful comics line.

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

(i orginally wanted to 'Ask Greg' this but i just noticed he is no longer answering questions. Thought i would post it anywayz.
..............................................................

Hey Greg!!,

I am a new fan!!

I originally had friends in High School tell me about Gargoyles but i wouldn't watch it because i thought (at the time) it was Disney taking a kool idea like medieval Gargoyles and dumbing it down into a sad saturday morning cartoon. I WAS WRONG!!!! (lol, since when do saturday morning cartoons say things like "PREVIOUSLY ON...."!!)

I played alot of RPG's when i was a kid and thought they were making a dumb kid cartoon and (at the time) that really pissed me off!!

Just recently however, a friend coaxed me into getting Season One and I was blown away!! I am soooooo sad that this series did not last longer than three seasons. (offically two i guess since my friend told me you backed out of season three due to creative problems with Disney (is that true??)

Anywho, I have acouple of questions fer ya'!

1. Have you or do you have any plans at trying to get your series back on the air? (as a new show)

2. Is the series still in rotation? I had totally forgotten about it until my friend coaxed me into watching it. No rotation = no new fans.

3. Also, do you have any plans on ressuming your comic book of Gargoyles as these i will be checking out next!

4. As far as bringing the series back to television (or the big screen) what are the biggest hurdles in getting this/these to manifest?

Okay, i am gonna stop here cuz i have like several more questions!!

btw: GARGOYLES ROCKZ!

Sincerely,
M
=^^=

lady of shalott - [paulizdreamy at yahoo dot com]

My theory was an attempt to reconcile the various statements about Peredur and Duval. Greg Weisman originally said that Duval is Percival's modern alias, and more recently, since the release of "Clan-Building Volume Two", said that his plans about the Arthurian survivors have not changed. But the evidence that we have about Peredur in "Rock of Ages" points towards his probably being Percival as well:

1. "Peredur" is the Welsh form of "Percival".

2. Peredur's full name is "Peredur fab Ragnall", Welsh for "Peredur son of Ragnall". Greg Weisman's mentioned at "Ask Greg" that he sees Percival as the son of Sir Gawain by Lady Ragnell (an idea he took from Roger Lancelyn Green, one of his favorite Arthurian authors).

3. The Stone of Destiny, when speaking to Peredur, calls King Arthur "your master", indicating that Peredur had been in Arthur's service during his original reign.

So, while the evidence in "Rock of Ages" points to Peredur being Percival, Greg's also implied that his plans about Duval's identity have not changed. So how to reconcile these? My speculation is that Percival was somehow split into two separate bodies over the centuries - Peredur in one, Duval in the other. It's a bit desperate, I'll admit, and might turn out to be wrong, but it seemed like a possible solution. If we get more graphic novels (particularly "Pendragon"), we might find out more.

Since Paul brought up opposition between the Illuminati and King Arthur, I might add that the Peredur scene in "Rock of Ages" and its implications offer some intriguing possibilities for it. The evidence is that Peredur set up the Illuminati to prepare for Arthur's anticipated return in 2198, when the Space-Spawn invade Earth. Now Arthur, thanks to Elisa, has been awakened two hundred years ahead of schedule, upsetting Peredur's plans. From Peredur's point of view, and that of the other upper-echelon members, Arthur's premature return is a disaster, meaning that now he won't be there when the Space-Spawn arrive, and something that they need to rectify before it becomes too late. So the Illuminati leadership would be acting in Arthur's interests - wanting to ensure that he'll be there when Britain, and the rest of the world, needs him - but having a different idea from Arthur and his new friends (such as Griff) over what those interests are. I think that offers possibilities for a more original and complex conflict than the usual scenarios about Arthur's modern-day return and facing old enemies (Morgan le Fay is a popular candidate in such stories) who want to kill him; here, Arthur's chief antagonists want to help him, but Arthur may not agree with their ideas of what he should be doing. Now I hope all the more that Greg will get to tell "Pendragon".

Todd Jensen

Nostalgia Critic says one of the best villain songs is Keith David in Princess and the Frog: http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/videolinks/thatguywiththeglasses/nostalgia-critic/17640-top-11-villian-songs (@3:40) He even gives props to Gargoyles.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

I am in tears, Timedancer Requiem was just to much, try listening to the Armageddon score soundtrack while reading it, you won't stop reading, and you won't stop worrying. I feel like writing out poetry, yet I am no poet.
Jinrou

PAUL> Greg said at the 2008 Gathering that Peredur is #1.
Greg Bishansky

Todd Jensen > That's an interesting idea, and it might explain why King Arthur is working against the Illuminati. Notwithstanding their ranks in the Illuminati (and are we sure that Peredur is #1? He never did that number-exchange thing...), it's entirely possible that the Illuminati might not be as unified as they seem. (On second thought, Blanchefleur is clearly hostile to Duval, and Bluestone to Hacker... and Castaway would probably go berserk if he ever found out that Thailog was an Illuminatus...)

I don't think that there's any reason given in the Arthurian mythos for King Arthur and Peredur to be enemies (unlike, say, Arthur and Lancelot).

Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]

I remember a fanfic that showed what the cast of "Friends" was doing during "The Mirror" but I can't for the life of me remember who the author was so I could find it again.
Patrick
"There's an old saying in Tennessee - I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee - that says, fool me once, shame on - shame on you. Fool me - you can't get fooled again." - George W. Bush

An odd thought I had about Peredur and Duval, inspired by Greg Weisman's recent mention at "Ask Greg" that his plans about Duval have not changed. What if Peredur and Duval are, in a sense, the same person, but divided into two bodies (a bit like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, only existing in separate bodies rather than one body changing back and forth between them)? I know that it sounds strange, but so are a lot of things involving the Holy Grail.
Todd Jensen

Blaise: It's okay. I actually just finally thought of another behind the scenes moment myself. I wouldn't have minded seeing what a few of the incidental characters (like Vinnie, Brendan and Margot) or main ones like Xanatos and Fox were doing during "The Mirror," after Puck cast his spell on the entire city. Basically, it would have been fun to see what they looked like.
Harvester of Eyes
"I can face her. I just can't beat her." Hudson ("Long Way to Morning")

My impression is that ST:TAS was as good as it was largely because of how many of the original cast and crew were involved, including Gene Roddenberry. Filmation was responsible for the show and they're not a company known for great animation, so there is a lot of stock animation and cycles and rotoscoping and closeups where only the characters mouths move and so on. Their original idea for a Star Trek cartoon was essentially Star Trek Jr. a group of young trainees roughly analogous to the crew of the Enterprise having their own adventures. Roddenberry still had creative control and evidently told Filmation where they could stick their Kid Trek concept (the tone is just my guessing; he may have been much nicer about it), and the series was redeveloped as more of a direct sequel to the live action series. Roddenberry also helped to convince panicky network executives that "Yesteryear" (that's the episode about Spock's childhood, Algernon) would not be too traumatizing for the kids. I like that episode very much myself, though I don't think the time travel explanation makes an ounce of sense.
Demonskrye - [<---"Toy Story 2" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

kicken

http://nebulan.deviantart.com/art/Romanian-Gargoyle-Clan-154933220

Emily - [poogleann at yahoo dot com]
Goliath you and I aren't so different we're hated by the normal people outcasts attacked by those who refuse to get to know us (Romania the vampire from my gargoyles in Romania fic)

Demonskrye> Thanks!
Battle Beast - [Canada]
GO CANADA GO!

ANTIYONDER> I watched a couple eps of ST:TAS a while back, I thought it was pretty fun, the writers were obviously treating this as a legitimate succseor to TOS. I also like that they took advantage of the medium to tell the kinds of stories that would never have worked in live action, like the crew visting the planet of the fish people. There's also a really good time travel episode dealing with Spock's past that got "homaged" in the Abrhams movie. Admittedly the series got a little goofy at times like that episode with the fifty foot Spock clone, but mostly it was pretty true to the spirit of the original series.

My only really problems with the show were the somewhat stiff animation and that the voice cast often sounded like they were phoning it in. Still it was an overall enjoyable experiment and it really makes my whish that the Powers That Be would take another crack at an animated Star Trek.

Algernon

Battle Beast> I'm not 100% sure, but I believe this is the deal:

Gemstone released two trades: The Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck, which collects Rosa's 12 original stories in the series along with some text commentary from the author and bonus material, and The Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck Companion, which collects some of the comics Rosa did that tell stories set between issues of the original series of "Life and Times" comics. BOOM! Studios is now publishing a hardcover "Volume One" of Life and Times with evident plans for a second volume later on. Thing is, the hardcover is only 112 pages long, while the Gemstone original Life and Times volume alone is 256 pages. So what I believe is going on is that BOOM! is releasing the original 12 issue series in two volumes, six in each. So if you buy the hardcover, you'll get half the story right away and the second half whenever they release volume two. I think.

If that's the case, a used copy of the Gemstone printing would be cheaper in the long run. Assuming both volumes of the hardcover cost the same, it's going to be a total of around $33.00 for the hardcover (plus shipping) while used copies of the Gemstone paperback sell for around $23.00 (plus shipping). Again, I'm not 100% sure this is what BOOM! is doing - it could be that they're mashing the original and companion material together in chronological order or some such thing, but simple math says you're not getting as much content in volume one of the hardcover as you are in the original paperback collection.

Demonskrye - [<---"Toy Story 2" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

I didn't even know there was an animated series I mean closest I've been to a trekkie is the one with Bacard because some of the voice actors were on that generation
Emily - [poogleann at yahoo dot com]
Goliath you and I aren't so different we're hated by the normal people outcasts attacked by those who refuse to get to know us (Romania the vampire from my gargoyles in Romania fic)

Since I brought it up, anyone else here besides Demonskrye watch Star Trek The Animated Series? If so, any opinions.

Since this was my entry point to the Star Trek series as a whole, what got my interest wasn't how faithful to the Original Series it was, but that it stands out to me as the best 1970s cartoon.

Other toons at that time were either ok or guilty pleasure (crap to some), but storywise some real effort was made for the cartoon (Like many I really enjoy the episode Yesteryear). Plus it avoided many trends at the time (teen tag alongs and animals providing comic relief).

Antiyonder

Blaise> I'm pretty sure that Derek didn't have to tell Maggie his real name; she could have easily overheard it from Elisa in "The Cage" if not also in "Metamorphosis." And Maggie definitely knew that Elisa was his sister.
Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]

Tini> Thanks! Now I can't wait to get the book...

Olympics> WE WON! WE WON! :D

Battle Beast - [Canada]
GO CANADA GO!

@Ian Bassett - Check out your local college to see if they are offering "Mini Courses". Bloomsburg University is offering a class called "Introduction to Voiceovers" taught by a company called "Voices For
All." So if you did a little research, AND it's something you'd like to do, hopefully you can find that opportunity in your area.

@Battle Beast - I'm no Scrooge McDuck expert, but maybe the wikipedia entry can help you. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Life_and_Times_of_Scrooge_McDuck

Anthony Tini

Hi all! Actually here to comment on a recent "Ask Greg" post brought to my attention. From this URL,
http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=11907 , here is an excerpt concerning my involvement in the Gargoyles/ Spectacular Spider-Man crossover:

Question posed:

"4.) You listed Ian Bassett as the voice of Cletus Kasady/Carnage for the Gargoyles/Spidey crossover, so I guess you do like Carnage after all. Stupid internet rumors and false reports. Would you be interested in having Mr. Bassett reprise the role of Carnage on "Spectacular", or maybe have him as another voice if he's available?"

Greg's Response:

"4. Ian was a member of the Gathering Players, not a pro. He did a great job, but I don't even know if he lives in Los Angeles."

Very true. I am not an actor (although I'd love to voice act and do consider I have a slight penchant for voices...but I'm getting ahead of myself) and am not a pro. Concerning the question originally posed, I'd be absolutely enthralled to do any voice work especially if it was on someone like Carnage. I'm a huge comic-book fan, animation fan, and Weisman fan. Concerning Mr. Weisman's response, I actually do live in the Los Angeles area.

Also, let me be clear that I'm more than happy to leave it up to the professionals! Meaning, hoping of course Spectacular Spider-Man gets another season, I wouldn't feel let down in the slightest if Greg got a pro to do the voice of Carnage, in fact I totally expect it. The Gathering was a blast, getting to audition for someone I consider an animation ICON and a voice director that worked on zillions of great shows was incredible. To get to voice 2 parts (or 3, if you consider Carnage and Cassidy seperate) in a radio play including some of my favorite voice actors of all time (Keith David, Steve Blum, and other huge talents from both shows) was a real treat. While the play was amazing to perform, I really look fondly back at the rehearsal before it. Also at the Gathering, I especially enjoyed meeting the musicians behind the shows (being a musician myself), specifically the Dynamic Music Partners, who I've remained in contact with. All that said, I'd do any voice any time for any show any of the people involved with this worked on, and if not a voice I'd be happy to bring the talent all coffee in the studio!

And to the person who originally posed the question to Greg, thank you!

Ian Bassett - [ianbassett at gmail dot com]
Ian Bassett

Demonskrye> Can you help me out a minute? On Amazon.com, they list "The Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck" as comeing out in Hardcover on MArch 10th. Is this the same as the other one they list that was released in 2005? (It's two places below in the lsitings.)

I just want to know if I am still getting Vol. 1 if I buy it in hard cover. (Or the one you and Tood were talking about. I am really interested in it.)

Thanks!

Battle Beast - [Canada]
GO CANADA GO!

BLAISE - So far, there's been no evidence of Brendan and Margot having children; I wouldn't be at all surprised if they didn't have any (Margot would probably see children as getting in the way of her A.D.A. career).

(I've mentioned this before, but I still suspect that Matt and the rest of the Gargoyle Task Force, after working with Margot, will have a lot of sympathy for Brendan (much like, in "Keeping Up Appearances", those who knew Hyacinth Bucket well had a lot of sympathy for her husband Richard).

I've long suspected that Sarah might be having second thoughts about the Quarrymen after actually seeing them in uniform - executioner-style hoods and all. I've mentioned this before as well, but I think that there'd be many people in New York who, while not being all that fond of gargoyles, might be concerned about the Quarrymen as vigilantes (which certainly gives Castaway all the more reason to exercise such restraints over the Quarrymen as "no hammers while out on Halloween patrol").

Todd Jensen

take a look at this pic its a drawing of my romanian clan XD

http://nebulan.deviantart.com/art/Romanian-Gargoyle-Clan-154933220

Emily - [poogleann at yahoo dot com]
Goliath you and I aren't so different we're hated by the normal people outcasts attacked by those who refuse to get to know us (Romania the vampire from my gargoyles in Romania fic)

Antiyonder> Star Trek: The Animated Series also has an advantage over a lot of animated spin-offs since it plays out like a slightly different continuation of the live-action series. Much of the original cast showed up (thanks in part to Leonard Nimoy sticking up for his fellow actors and the show's view of future tolerance and diversity), as did some of the writers from the live-action series. So while the series may not be known to the general public, it does have credibility with the fans, which is more than some animated shows that are really just cash-ins on a popular property can claim.

And in case anyone was wondering:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1155076/

Demonskrye - [<---"Toy Story 2" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

oh god I found this wierd channel that shows cartoons from the ninety I think gargoyles is on it that or i dreamed it
Emily - [poogleann at yahoo dot com]
Goliath you and I aren't so different we're hated by the normal people outcasts attacked by those who refuse to get to know us (Romania the vampire from my gargoyles in Romania fic)

Demonskrye> Sounds reasonable to me. Star Trek The Animated Series to add another example isn't really one of the most well known cartoons, but having Star Trek in the title makes it's release a no brainer.

Plus The Karate Kid is a short 13 episode series. If it doesn't sell well, doesn't matter because that's the entire series right there.

Antiyonder

Isn't there a new Karate Kid movie or a remake of the original coming out sometime soon? If so, I think that probably has something to do with it. If a property gets some kind of a new push, it's more likely that the past versions of that property will be offered up again to cash in, provided the new version is high profile enough.
Demonskrye - [<---"Toy Story 2" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

Checking out tvshowsondvd.com it never ceases to amaze me some of the stuff they're willing to put on DVD, and then we have Disney that's still holding out on season 2, Vol. 2 of Gargoyles. Just read that Sony is putting out the extremely short lived Karate Kid cartoon series on DVD! I'm sure that will sell really well-NOT. Sony didn't even see a point in doing the Real Ghostbusters-it took Time-Life to license the property and do it up right. Sad that Disney didn't license their properties. We can only dream of what Time-Life could do with a Gargoyles box set. The possibilities!
Wingless

Covers> I am not particularly fond of the cover to issue #4. I find it confusing and generic, two things I don't like in a cover. But the cover for #5, quite possibly my favorite of the series, makes up for it. It isn't so much that I need tons of violence on a cover to find it interesting. What I like about this particular cover is how compelling it is. You look at the cover and you want to read the story inside. You have to read the story inside. Covers that I like are sually ones that give you a taste of what you're about to read. Sometimes a cover that could be just about any issue can make up for it's unspecific nature by being a really cool image, like issue #3. But usually, they leave me cold.

Missing Moments> I don't think I have anything left to say. Everyone has picked really good ones that I would love to see. The only one I can think of that hasn't been mentioned is the Ishimura Clan deciding on Yama's punishment. It wouldn't really have any bearing on the story since we already know the outcome and some of what happened. But it would have been interesting to see the process and get a few more glimpses of the clan aside from the three gargoyles we know.

Demonskrye - [<---"Toy Story 2" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

****With a loud "FWOOM!" and a puff of red smoke, Blaise appears in the Room.**** Hi all! Been a bit preoccupied with RL, but I have a bit of time now.

"MISSING MOMENTS"> Yeah, I know it was last week's topic, but I didn't get a chance to contribute, so...
At any rate, two of them concern the Mutates:
1) Turning the Labyrinth into a homeless shelter. I guess, if I had a complaint about the Mutate storyline in general, it would be that a lot of interesting developments occurred off-screen. After "The Cage" where they meet the Mazas, we next see them in "Kingdom" with their impromptu homeless shelter already established. I just feel like it's something of a missing chapter. I mean, how exactly did the Mutates introduce themselves to the homeless folk? The reaction to a 7-foot cat-like creature with bat-wings offering shelter would have been an interesting one to say the least. And then there's the reaction to the Labyrinth itself.
2) The beginning of Derek and Maggie's relationship. Again, there was a definite change between "Metamorphosis" and "The Cage," and I'm not talking about character designs. Maggie already calls Derek by his real name, and they are definitely the closest of the Mutates even at the beginning of the ep. I would love to see how the two of them got there--when did Derek reveal his name to her and stuff like that. Yes, I know the series is called Gargoyles, not Mutates, but when even the supporting cast is made so compelling, you just hate to miss moments like this.
Here's a few non-Mutate ideas:
3) This one is a bit of a stretch because we don't know if anything happened, but it's still a story idea I'd like to see: Brooklyn and the clan having to foil one of Xanatos's plots while Goliath's still on the Avalon World Tour. Greg Weisman has mentioned that the crew could never figure out an episode in which Xanatos would be able to take advantage of the info that Goliath is missing (http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=192), and I always thought that was unfortunate. Yes it would be more face time for my favorite character (Brooklyn), but it might also be interesting to see if Xanatos changes his "game plan" to take into account the fact that he's facing Brooklyn instead of Goliath.
4) Greg said King Arthur had an adventure or two before he got to London in "Pendragon." I'd be very interested in those as well.

All these "missing moments" makes me think that a Gargoyles graphic novel collecting stories such as these (like a "Lost Tales" of Gargoyles or something) would be nifty.

THOUGHTS I HAD ON RE-READING CLAN-BUILDING: VOLUME 1> On my latest read-through of this I had a few thoughts.
-One of the first was a question on Castaway's choice of timing for his Quarrymen rally. It obviously occurs concurrently with Elisa and Goliath's discussion, so that means it takes place just before and through the dawn. This struck me as odd at first--people aren't usually happy to get up that early, and trying to stay up all night presents its own problems. But then, I thought about the symbolism: when they enter the Quarrymen brownstone, it is dark. But when they leave, after having become Quarrymen, after having "found kindred spirits" if you will, then it will be light. The sun has risen, a new day has dawned, and that's a pretty powerful visual for people who now have something else to be scared off in the dark places of the night. I suppose this would qualify as a moment of "Fridge Brilliance."
-Another thought I had was in regards to Macbeth and Margot's inclusion on the "Nightwatch" Live Gargoyle Debate. When "The Journey" aired as a TGC episode, their inclusion seemed a bit...odd to me. I mean, you had a Medieval scholar and an Assistant District Attorney. Now, I suppose the scholar might make sense, even without definite proof that the gargoyles are medieval, but the ADA just seemed out of nowhere. I suppose they might have volunteered to appear on the show (and I could definitely see that for Macbeth), but...well, it still seemed off. But in the comic, Macbeth is said to have written a book about "Gargoyles in Celtic Mythology" or something like that, and Margot is an official advisor to the Gargoyles Task Force. Suddenly, their inclusion in a debate on gargoyles (and from opposing viewpoints, no less) makes A LOT more sense. I never got to read the original script for "The Journey," so I don't know if these distinctions were originally in there, or if they were added for the comic. Could anyone tell me?
-While on the subject of Margot, do you remember when she says "Our children are not safe" during the debate? I find myself wondering, does Margot even HAVE children?
-One last thought, and it deals with Sarah Browne. I keep going back to the look on her face as the two Quarrymen pass by in "Masque". Is she troubled? If so, why? And, since part of her motivation for joining the Quarrymen is worry for her kids, what would be her reaction should she encounter Nashville? Would she even recognize him as the gargoyle equivalent of a 9-year-old, or would she just see another monster that just happens to be smaller than the others? Yeah, I'm just asking questions here because I can't think of the answers.

Anyhow, that's all I have for now. Until next time! ****Blaise hops up and down three times and vanishes with a "pop."****

Blaise

I was updating my Twitter background to the comic covers (i.e. something people might actually recognize) and was reminded how well the covers turned out: http://www.tc.umn.edu/~thom1576/gargoyles-twitter-bg-wide.jpg

It's really some of the most beautiful art of the entire run. The GargWiki is missing high-res scans of the Bad Guys #1-3 covers without the text. If someone has those scans or knows who does, I'd appreciate an upload.

http://gargoyles.dracandros.com/Strangers
http://gargoyles.dracandros.com/The_Lost
http://gargoyles.dracandros.com/Estranged

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Brainiac> *SIGH*
Battle Beast - [Canada]
GO CANADA GO!

Tenth
Phil - [p1anderson at go dot com]

Ninth. Sorry, Battle Beast.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

8
t
h

Anthony Tini

7TH in the name of a (hopefully) productive week.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" -Sevarius, 'Louse'

6th. Wow, slow morning...
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

5th
VickyUK - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]

(4)FOUR!!!!
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]

Third. (I'm pretty sure I posted third last week too...)
Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]

Second!
Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible, I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka

.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
GO CANADA GO!

First! Go Canada!
battle Beast - [Canada]
GO CANADA GO!