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The Phoenix Gate

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Comments for the week ending November 8, 2010

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man i hate not having to go to school there aint shit to do on the weekend i hate to be only one homeon the wekkend just like i am now
joe - [cundyr at bellsouth dot net]
solo

Ehi guys, on youtube I've seen the episodes of the Gargoyles are now in these languages: english, italian, spanish, german, french and portugese.
I am happy about that; the fans are taking the episodes on youtube because they are not arrive in their countries in DVD, The Disney company is very cheapskate.

K7OP
-" In tutti noi c' e' il bene e il male, sia negli umani che nei gargoyle..." - Goliath in Awakening part 5 (italian version)

Woot!

I get a lot of $1's with my job so I have decided that I will save the ones that I receive at the end of my shift in order to buy the Electric Tiki statue. My only rule is, I cant purposefully save them. I went to the store yesterday and paid for my purchase in 14 $1. I had about 7 $1's left over and those went into my statue fund.

I have been saving for 3 weeks now and have $41. Nearly 25% of goal (not including tax.)

Just thought to share that idea with others so maybe they could do it too. You dont feel the loss of $1.

Lurker

Well, I guess thats life. It is the risk Angela took when she left Avalon to "see the world and find [her] place in it."
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"But what do you call each other?" "'Friend...'" - Tom and Brooklyn, "Awakening, Part One"

I am sad for Angela, I really think she has a little desire: her with Goliath and Demona, and all of her friends, all living creatures in a happy life in a totally peace. A good releationship with both Goliath and Demona; but she knows that all is impossible.
K7OP
-" In tutti noi c' è il bene e il male, sia negli umani che nei gargoyle..." - Goliath in Awakening part 5 (italian version)

Gathering up my thoughts from last night and tonight:

Demona and the clan will *never* be friends, and only the most briefest, most uneasy, of allies. Everything we've seen has suggested that. They may be able to to do small things together, like breaking from the Hunters' cell, but that's as far as it goes.

The Quarrymen, certainly, are not a big enough threat to motivate either party to put aside this truth. Demona is a complex character, to be sure, but one thing that isn't that complex is how much she and the rest of Manhattan's gargoyles can tolerate each other. Demona's past deeds and current methods are absolutely vile to the Manhattan Clan, as their beliefs are to her.

Demona loves Angela, but it is not a love that is entirely healthy. It is possessive, and the division between them is not unlike that between Demona and the rest of the clan. Demona would rather have Angela follow her beliefs than accept her daughter as she is. Thus, she does not respect Angela as an individual being, and this cripples any chance at a mother/daughter redemption *before* we get to "The Reckoning" and "Hunter's Moon".

Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality"--Shirley Jackson

While the Quarrymen will obviously be a threat to the gargoyles, I sometimes wonder whether it'll be a really big threat. Castaway wants the gargoyles dead, but at the same time, I think he'll be cautious about his strategies. He wouldn't want to scare more people away from the organization, ordinary people like Vinnie who joined the Quarrymen because they were afraid of what the gargoyles might do to them and their families but who would feel uncomfortable at the thought of actually killing a gargoyle once they'd gotten the upper hand - or, worse, killing humans who might be friendly with the gargoyles. And he'd want a strong percentage of ordinary civilians in the Quarrymen to balance the trouble that people like Chaz and Lou might do.

He also doesn't want to give the Quarrymen a negative public image. I've said before that I think there'd be many people in New York who, while they're not fond of gargoyles, would not be too keen on the idea of a group of vigilantes in uniforms and wielding hammers running about the city and might even see that as more of a danger to public safety than the gargoyles themselves (the kind of people who, if they were living in Gotham City, would be saying that if Batman wants to fight crime, he should put away that costume and join the Gotham City Police Department). Castaway doesn't want the Quarrymen to give people that impression (note his stricture against carrying hammers around on Halloween), so I think he's going to - for some time, at least - keep the physical confrontations with the gargoyles small-scale and unlikely to be noticed by the public or the media.

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1 at mindspring dot com]

I know, but I don't think that was all that conscious a thought. More her being at the end of her rope and needing a way out -- any way out.
Aldrius - [ShadowAldrius at gmail dot com]
"Noo... you remember boy. How I turned defeat into victory! How I left you with a dying system..."

Aldrius: Don't forget that just a few episodes after "The Reckoning," Demona almost killed Angela and Goliath when she threw the vial containing the virus into the air. She wasn't completely sure anyone would catch it.
Harvester of Eyes
"I don't know, I'm making this up as I go." -Indiana Jones

I think one would need a very low opinion of Angela and Goliath to think they'd turn a blind eye to genocide. Look people Demona's a tragic character to be sure, but let's not lose sight of what she's allowed that tragdy to warp her into, a monster.

If Goliath had been just a second too late at the end of Hunter's Moon, Demona would have went down in history as the worst mass murderer of all time, with a body count that would put every warmongering tyrant and deranged serial killer ever to shame.

Algernon
Make a REAL "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!

I don't think not trusting her or not getting along with her necessarily implies anything, though. It could, but I think in 200 years, and after her experiences with MacBeth, Angela, Goliath and so forth, Demona will have learned to deal with her issues a bit better. Not confront them, not have that epiphany that she someday will have. But not have these violent outbursts because of those issues that cause genocides.

I'm sure she'll make mistakes with Angela, I'm sure she'll make even bigger mistakes with Goliath, but I don't know how tragic it will all wind up being. I'm hoping she's learned a little bit and that her transition, like Xanatos' is more natural than just being an evil witch one day, then a huge epiphany which causes her to become heroic the next. Because even her transition to villain-hood was slow, even if it did have a few slopes here and there. (Such as betraying MacBeth)

I think, looking at the Reckoning, siding with Goliath to save Angela is a significant step in the other direction. One which I think will be built upon.

Aldrius - [ShadowAldrius at gmail dot com]
"Noo... you remember boy. How I turned defeat into victory! How I left you with a dying system..."

Even in 997 Demona seemed disdainful of Wind Ceremonies, so I'm inclined to agree with Matt.

I don't think that Goliath and Demona are complete opposites, either; Goliath certainly has a vengeful side, as shown in "Hunter's Moon," and Demona certainly has a protective side, as she showed when she chose to save Macbeth and Gruoch rather than kill Gillecomgain in "City of Stone, Part One."

In fact, that choice reminded me a lot of Goliath's decision to save Katharine rather than kill Hakon and the Captain, and I'm pretty sure that the similarity is deliberate.

Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]

There is a huge difference between Demona not getting along with anyone and everyone hating and distrusting her.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"But what do you call each other?" "'Friend...'" - Tom and Brooklyn, "Awakening, Part One"

MATT> Greg seemed pretty adamant about it here. Look at the emphasis.

http://s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=1923

Greg Bishansky

Greg B> "Considering that when 2198 opens, everyone hates and distrusts Demona... I think we have an idea that she isn't playing nice with them."

Where did you get this information? This is the first I've heard of it.

I generally agree that she'll make some mistakes during the course of the Space Spawn War. And I tend to think you're right that events during this time will finally lead her to see her own mistakes and the epiphany that goes with all that. I also agree that she'll end up feeling a lot of regret about her relationship with Angela and Goliath and Hudson and others. I'm not so sure that means she'll actually side with the Space Spawn over the Resistance though. It is so hard to speculate at this point. But Demona is an interesting character, and her relationships with Guardian and Delilah and Samson and Brooklyn in 2198 are going to be VERY interesting indeed.

As for Elisa's Wind Ceremony, what makes you think Demona would attend at all? Would she even consider it a valid ceremony? I find it highly unlikely that Demona would attend the ceremony, what would be the point for her?

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"But what do you call each other?" "'Friend...'" - Tom and Brooklyn, "Awakening, Part One"

I have a lot to say on this topic because I have given this topic a lot of thought over the years. A lot of thought.

MATT> <<I think the founding of new clans will have an effect on Demona.>>

New gargoyles to convert. She might even be successful with a few.

<<I think Goliath's death will have an effect on Demona.>>

Well, you know what I happen to theorize her role will be in this.

<<I think the Gargoyle Minority Protection Act and the establishment of the Gargoyle Nation will have an effect on Demona.>>

She'll do what she has spent over a thousand years doing. She'll rationalize it to fit comfortably into the world view that she already holds. Because anything else would mean that she would have to admit she was wrong and realize she was responsible for all of her own suffering.

Considering that when 2198 opens, everyone hates and distrusts Demona... I think we have an idea that she isn't playing nice with them.

<<The fact that she would join Samson's Resistance at all means she has changed. And the fact that Samson actively recruits her means he trusts her to a degree.>>

I do not see it that way. In fact, I think the fact that Samson recruits her shows just how necessary it is, that he is willing to make a deal with a devil to defeat the Space-Spawn. What was it that Winston Churchill once said?

"If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to the devil in the House of Commons."

And, I tend to believe that just before Demona has her epiphany, she is going to make the biggest mistake of her life. I think she is going to betray the Resistance to the Space Spawn... before the reality of all of her mistakes and stupid choices hit her like a truck...

... and there is no tragedy to her epiphany if she and Angela ever reconcile. She needs to realize that her inability to own up for the horrible choices she made destroyed a normal relationship with her daughter. That has to be an element in there. If she already made peace with her daughter and came to an understanding with Goliath, that will rob her epiphany of so much of its teeth, I'd have to wonder what the point would even be. And I am coming at this from the perspective of a writer, if I were handling this... I think her already having mellowed out a bit before the Space-Spawn invade would de-fang her epiphany.

DEMONSKRYE> <<The nature of her feelings about humans has changed over the years. It seems that at least for a time during World War II, she was willing to let the humans destroy themselves rather than actively try to wipe out the species.>>

Greg has hinted in ASK GREG that Demona didn't just sit back during World War II. While her hope may have been that we'd destroy ourselves, I am certain she participated enough to attempt to influence things towards that very outcome.

<<Any alliance between Demona and the Manhattan Clan would probably come about spur of the moment, not by the two parties sitting down and laying out a bunch of ground rules and terms beforehand.>>

While I agree there, what happens when Demona decides she wants to skin Castaway alive, and then hang his corpse from the top of a flag pole as a warning to others?

What happens when Demona decides she wants to gut Sarah Browne, and the result is Susan and Billy growing up without a mother?

I'd wager a good 99% of the Quarrymen are good, decent people under those hoods. Banquo and Fleance are an exception who are just in it to make a buck. Castaway, on the other hand, definitely comes off as a good, and decent person if you don't know the gargoyles and don't know he tried to murder two human beings... so yeah, he's chilling.

And while I'm at it; do you really think Demona is going to stop trying to murder Elisa Maza? The same Elisa Maza who is living proof that Demona is wrong about humans? The same Elisa Maza that Demona cannot tolerate to live because of that fact?

And I just suddenly had a thought. Let's say Elisa dies, we know the clan is going to hold a Wind Ceremony for her, we know all are permitted to speak... what do you think Demona is going to show up and say?

Either way, Demona is not going to play by Goliath's rules, and even the most temporary of team-ups will involve her being part of the problem and not the solution. The last time she and Goliath teamed up, it was a very, very, very, very bad thing.

So, how many of you think Goliath and Castaway could join forces against Queen Mab?

Either way, any deals with Demona should be seen as making a deal with the devil, at least until she has her epiphany and repents.

Greg Bishansky

I'm pretty much with Matt on this. We don't know a lot about what happens to Demona between 1997 and 2198 and 200 years is a long time in which a lot could happen. Heck, there's still a lot we don't know about what happened to Demona after she betrayed Macbeth up to the time of the Manhattan clan's awakening. But we do know that the past thousand years haven't been one long campaign of trying to eradicate humanity. The nature of her feelings about humans has changed over the years. It seems that at least for a time during World War II, she was willing to let the humans destroy themselves rather than actively try to wipe out the species. Then the U.S. dropped the atomic bomb and she got worried that either the humans would destroy the world - gargoyles included - in the process of destroying one another or the word left behind would be unable to sustain any kind of life for very long. Who knows how many times she may have gone from actively trying to kill all humans to more passively aiding in their eventual destruction to trying a completely different course of action over those thousand years?

While I'm hesitant to speculate on exactly what Demona will be like in 200 years, I agree with Matt that various events we know about - and probably many we don't - are going to have an effect one her. Not all of them may have a positive effect, but some undoubtedly will. I don't know that Demona and Angela will ever be able to truly reconcile. Whether or not she's been actively pursuing the annihilation of humanity by the time 2198 rolls around, it still seems to be a goal she has. Angela has humans in her life who she considers family and as much as she may care about her mother, she can't ignore the fact that Deona would kill millions of innocent people if she got her way, including people she loves. But I do think Angela is going to have some kind of positive effect one Demona, pushing her in the direction of eventual reform, whether or not Angela ever lives to see that effect.

I don't think a temporary and uneasy alliance between Demona and the Manhattan CLan in the future is entirely out of the question. As Aldrius points out, the Quarrymen are a force that threatens all gargoyles. So there could well be some point where Goliath and some other memebers of the Manhattan CLan are trying to stop a Quarrymen plot to destroy say the Mayan Clan and discover that Demona is apparently doing the exact same thing. Demona decides that more gargoyles will make her life easier and possible convince some of them that they should be one her side, while Goliath decides that he's better off having Demona close by where he can keep an eye on her. Any alliance between Demona and the Manhattan Clan would probably come about spur of the moment, not by the two parties sitting down and laying out a bunch of ground rules and terms beforehand.

Demonskrye - [<---"Ice Age" at The Ink and Pixel Club]

We should be fair here and admit that we don't really know that much about Demona in 2198. And we esspecially don't know much about what happens in Demona's life between 1997 and 2198. A lot can happen in 201 years. We shouldn't assume because she is a certain way in 1997 and a certain way in 2198 that the progression from one to the other will be steady and uninterrupted. I agree with Greg B that Angela will not completly redeem Demona. The 2198 document makes it clear that Demona might still view the Space Spawn invasion to be an oppurtunity to annihilate humanity. However, I think Angela will have an effect on Demona. And I think those 200 years will have an effect on Demona. I think the founding of new clans will have an effect on Demona. I think Goliath's death will have an effect on Demona. I think the Gargoyle Minority Protection Act and the establishment of the Gargoyle Nation will have an effect on Demona. She isn't going to be the same gargoyle we know in the late 20th century.

I've just reread the 2198 document. I get the impression that Demona has mellowed out by 2198. She still has major gripes with humanity and is unwilling to accept her own guilt. She hasn't rejoined the clan or anything... butI don't think she is actively plotting against humanity either. At no place in the document does it say that she would be a villain in this series, the document lists her among the protaganists in fact. The fact that she would join Samson's Resistance at all means she has changed. And the fact that Samson actively recruits her means he trusts her to a degree.

So, lets not jump to conclusions and say Demona isn't capable of change because I think the Demona of 2198 will be a significantly different character then she was in 1997.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"But what do you call each other?" "'Friend...'" - Tom and Brooklyn, "Awakening, Part One"

Sorry, I meant to say SHE knows HE'S right in the second to last paragraph there.
Aldrius - [ShadowAldrius at gmail dot com]
"Noo... you remember boy. How I turned defeat into victory! How I left you with a dying system..."

I'm not really sure why you think I'm confusing the Quarrymen in TGC with the comics' version of them. Their motives are irrelevant to the fact that they're a powerful enemy that will want to kill both Goliath and Demona. They're a force to be reckoned with, they're lead by a member of the Illuminati, they still have some pretty significant manpower and technology at their disposal and they, if not their leader still want to exterminate gargoyles. Demona may be the greater threat, but Demona would work against the Quarrymen and wouldn't MIND working with the Manhattan Clan, particularly in a life or death situation. Under her terms, yes, but sometimes her terms are acceptable. I mean the reason Goliath lets her go in Hunter's Moon, is because he trusts her -- he trusts her to hate the Hunters and he hated the Hunters and let his anger cloud his judgement.

Keep in mind I'm not talking about anything long-term here. Because obviously Demona can't be trusted. But still, Demona's complicated. She's not nearly as vicious as she believes herself to be, she's far more sentimental. I also think she's much more practical than you're giving her credit for. She'll do something she abhors when it's her own life, or her daughter's life on the line. As she has proven in the past. So I think in time they can come to an understanding, it's not going to happen in her next appearance, though, obviously. And it wouldn't be like it is with Xanatos, where they can trust her. But I think they can come to an understanding of sorts. And I don't think that's too idealistic an idea.

To make a comparison with something you're probably not familiar with... In WarCraft 3, there's a character called Illidan. Illidan is a fairly complex character and in some ways a very similar character to Demona. He's his own worst enemy, he betrayed his people but is deluded into thinking that he did them a favour and they just don't appreciate his efforts. He's one of their most bitter enemies, and pretty much roams the world hunting for power (in this instance, magical power). He also loves Tyrande, who is his brother's wife. At a certain point in the story, Tyrande is stranded and is fighting for her life. Illidan, despite hating his people, despite having become a monster, still goes out of his way to work with his hated brother to rescue her. Because he loves Tyrande and will always protect her in the end, no matter how much he hates his people, no matter how monstrous and power-hungry he becomes. And deep down, his own self-loathing is rooted in how much he wants his brother to respect him but he can't help being who he is. Demona's self-loathing is rooted in how much she unconsciously knows she's let Goliath down and he annoys her because he knows she's right, and she does love him. I think she still does.

Outside of the romantic context, that's how I look at Demona's relationship with Angela and Goliath really.

Aldrius - [ShadowAldrius at gmail dot com]
"Noo... you remember boy. How I turned defeat into victory! How I left you with a dying system..."

Aldrius - That was so not a truce. And that was totally on Demona's terms, not the Manhattan Clan's. Ask yourself this: is Demona really going to play by Goliath's rules? Of course she isn't. She won't be part of the solution, she'll be part of the problem, and I will tell you why...

Demona doesn't give a crap about making peace with humanity or how gargoyles perceived, except she enjoys being feared. You're offering a solution that is unfeasable outside of fanfiction and the Goliath Chronicles. Think about how Goliath would handle the Quarrymen. Now think about how Demona would handle them. Between the two there is a galaxy. And she is not Magneto.

And, I think that Demona is a far greater threat than the Quarrymen could ever hope to be. Besides, the Quarrymen are not the same here as they were depicted in TGC. I think you may be confusing things.

We also know that she still wants to take control of the clan, and Goliath would never let her do that. So unless she genuinely reforms, there will be no peace between them that isn't under her terms. Anything else would be character destruction on an epic scale that would make even George Lucas blush.

All of this is moot anyway since we know from the 2198 document that Demona is still plotting humanity's genocide when that series opens.

Greg Bishansky

In the past they have made a truce, though. Against the hunters. Granted, that was treated as a sort of moral failing on Goliath's part. Crossing a line that he shouldn't be, but at the same time, I think it shows that under certain circumstances they can work with Demona. And I think particularly with Angela those circumstances can and probably will become more frequent. Especially since the Quarrymen are their common enemy. And a pretty strong one at that.

I'm by no means a Demona apologist, but I think particularly now, she's not as inclined to kill the Manhattan Clan as she had been prior to The Reckoning and Hunter's Moon. And while obviously her ultimate goal is the complete extermination of the Human Race. She's not going to have that opportunity every time the Manhattan Clan runs into her. The stakes won't always be that high.

As for not being able to imagine it, Greg. I think it's more that it would be very complex, not that it wouldn't work at all. Like, I know it's not going to end with a perfect little bow on it, but seeing Demona make some sort of reconciliation with Angela and even Goliath really before either of them dies. I could see that really. Not a perfect ending, but something.

Aldrius - [ShadowAldrius at gmail dot com]
"Noo... you remember boy. How I turned defeat into victory! How I left you with a dying system..."

ALDRIUS - The big difference is that Xanatos' goals aren't anything along the lines of "unleash the crime wave of the century on New York" or "take over the world" (except in "Future Tense", which obviously doesn't count) - big super-villain-type goals that the clan, because of its oath to protect Manhattan, would have to oppose. His goal is to increase his wealth, power, and influence, and to become immortal. The gargoyles would obviously oppose some of the methods he takes to achieve those goals (especially when those methods involve his coming after them and trying to capture them), but they don't rule out a truce (if an uneasy truce) with him. It's not like (to use an example from another animated series Greg Weisman worked on), Spiderman moving into the Big Man/Tombstone's headquarters.

Demona's big goal, on the other hand, is to wipe out humanity, something which Goliath and his clan cannot permit. So long as she persists in trying to achieve it, a truce between her and the Manhattan clan is impossible.

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1 at mindspring dot com]

Greg Bishansky: Maybe Demona becomes addicted to marihuana and gets civil for the rest of Angela's life- When marihuana gets extint along 90% of the rest of the world's flora,she gets violent and rabid once more.
Anonymous

Aldrius - If we are going with the idea that Demona is her own worst enemy than, yes I think she's going to lose Angela. Demona certainly has a knack for making her own life miserable, doesn't she?

Demona can either plot against humanity or have a relationship with Angela. She can't have both. And, honestly, we would be delving straight into bad fanfiction land if she could. She is a tragic character and her future epiphany must come with a very steep price. Otherwise we are sacrificing drama in favor of wish-fulfillment.

Or if you can't think of how it would work, it's probably because you know it wouldn't.

Greg Bishansky

Todd: ewwww....please tell me you wrotte it somewhere x-D
Anonymous

Haha, thanks a bunch Todd for that last little thought -- now I have an image of Demona telling anyone who would listen:

"I could not, would not, in a house. / I would not, could not, with a mouse. / I would not eat them with a fox, / I would not eat them in a box. / I would not eat them here or there, / I would not eat them anywhere!!"

>_<

Deepest apologies to all Demona fans for the above image XD

Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible, I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka

The mention of Demona and Angela reminded me of a rather dark creativity demon I had a while ago. Angela (or someone else wanting to see Demona change for the better) is granted a wish, and wants to see Demona cured of her hatred, but phrases it as wanting her "to become a humanitarian". Unfortunately, the being granting the wish doesn't know what a humanitarian is, and guesses at it, along the lines of "Well, a vegetarian is someone who eats vegetables, so a humanitarian must be...."

(I might add that I don't think that Demona would eat humans under normal circumstances; I think she hates them so much that she doesn't want them anywhere near her mouth.)

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1 at mindspring dot com]

Greg X> So, no, Demona is not going to have the cliched redemption via child end that Darth Vader had, and I'm happy about that.

Wasn't suggesting that. She doesn't need to be redeemed to make peace with Angela. Same way Xanatos doesn't need to stop scheming for the clan to start living in his castle.

I'm not sure how that would work, but I think it's possible.

Aldrius - [ShadowAldrius at gmail dot com]
"Noo... you remember boy. How I turned defeat into victory! How I left you with a dying system..."

ALDRIUS> Read the Gargoyles 2198 proposal again. Demona is STILL plotting against humanity when the series begins. Not just hating humanity, but actively plotting against humanity. And the proposal specifically says the events of 2198 may be her final opportunity to destroy the human species.

So, no, Demona is not going to have the cliched redemption via child end that Darth Vader had, and I'm happy about that.

I don't think the Angela/Demona dynamic is going to have a happy ending. At all.

Greg Bishansky

"So, she must be generally well known by 2198... and you know a ton happened between 1997 and 2198... and that her and Angela reconciling was not one of those things."

Do we really know this for certain? Has Greg actually said this?

In some capacity I could see Demona reconciling with Angela in some way without having to necessarily reconcile her hatred for humanity. I'm not sure how that would work exactly, but I don't exactly think the Demona of 2198 will be the same Demona we know in 1997.

Aldrius - [ShadowAldrius at gmail dot com]
"Noo... you remember boy. How I turned defeat into victory! How I left you with a dying system..."

To Anonymous' question on the Young Justice premiere date: November 26. Someone spilled the beans at NYCC.

http://poptimal.com/2010/10/ny-comic-con-2010-young-justice-preview/

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

K7OP> Those are just Region 1 DVDs imported from the US, that's how I got my own copies of the DVDs. They won't work on region 2 players and they haven't been properley released outside North America.
Algernon

Ehi guys, sorry if I disturb you again, I went to this web site 1 minute before: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/search/ref=pd_lpo_ix_dp_am_us_uk_en_gargoyles.020dvd_gl_dvd?keywords=gargoyles%20dvd&tag=lpo%5Fixdpamusukengargoyles.020dvdgl%5Fdvd-21&index=blended. It looks like the Gargoyles DVD, both season 1 and season 2 volume 1, are relased in U.K.
What do you think?
In my opinion it is a hope the DVDs will finally arrive in other countries, in Italy too.

K7OP
-In tutti noi c'è il bene e il male sia negli umani che nei gargoyle...- Goliath in Awakening part 5 (italian version)

Masterdramon> Read the transcripts of the oral arguments for Schwarzenegger v. EMA that went before the Supreme Court during Election Day. It'll probably cheer you up.

http://www.joystiq.com/2010/11/02/transcripts-from-supreme-courts-violent-game-case-available-now/

Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

joe: Some of us are already upset enough about the events of the day that actually matter, thank you very much.

[SPOILER] Republicans have more-or-less officially won the House at this point. Even though I expected this, it's still not making me any happier. XP [/SPOILER]

Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"I don't care how much I pay...too much, Magic Bus!" - Roger Daltrey of The Who

MAN I AHTE TO SEE THE YANKEES LOSE MY TEAM IS GONE NOW SO I HATE THE WORLD RIGHT NOW
joe - [cundyr at bellsouth dot net]
solo

Todd Jensen: Its always like that. Bad people (a minority) do bad things and the rest of the people (except those 5% of willing and brave people that in gargoyles is represented by Elisa and Matt)just watch, panic, scream, feel sorry and miserable, but never do anything at all. Its more surprising the inactivity of the mayority than the cruelty displayed for the destructive minority
Anonymous

Whoops, lost my forms.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Brandon Vietti on the costume designs of Young Justice: http://brandonvietti.blogspot.com/2010/11/costumes.html
Anonymous

Todd: "But I think that Demona's lost sight of this, especially in light of a line in "Re-Awakening" when she shouts that Goliath's clan was "smashed to pieces by the humans [he] trusted". Of course, the Wyvern massacre was carried out by the Vikings, whom Goliath certainly did *not* trust. I suspect that Demona, in her state of mind, has fused Hakon's war-band with the humans of Castle Wyvern in a tone of "They're all guilty". (Of course, the human who betrayed the castle to Hakon and thus helped bring about the massacre was the Captain of the Guard, whom Goliath *did* trust.)"

To be fair, Goliath didn't make any distinction between Hakon and the Captain either. In "Awakening, Part 2" after Xanatos compliments and thanks Goliath for stopping the commandoes' attack, he said "Someone I once trusted said the same thing to me, and then destroyed my people."

I don't think that Goliath realized that the Captain regretted the Wyvern Massacre until "Shadows of the Past."

Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]

I red many times book of history and I know the vikings came to America, Amerigo Vespucci came to America, a lot of the same calibre people came to America. I only wanted to know who came in America with Macbeth. Okay, we do not know? maybe we will discoreved soon.
And please Mr.Bishansky, I do not want offend you but be more courteous. :-) :-) :-) :-)

K7OP

Brainiac: In a word...d'oh. XD
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"I don't care how much I pay...too much, Magic Bus!" - Roger Daltrey of The Who

Masterdramon> Look at the right side of a page just above the regular title. If there are any alternate titles, they'll be listed there.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

Greg B:<You should read a history book, some time, I think.>


It;s a sad fact but K7OP probably has read a history book. Most of them aren't worth the paper they are printed on.

Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]

Taleweaver> I'll add this. Katara carried this same grudge and wish of vengence on Jet. I don't see where the out of the blue question comes from. As for teasing Toph on her blindness. Check out the commentary track on 'The Chase'.

Oh I wasn't complaining about what she said to Toph, I was merely pointing out that if she would say something hurtful to someone she considers a friend that it shouldn't be surprising that she'd threaten or insult someone she didn't consider a friend.

Antiyonder

Brainiac: Ah, I see. As a point of curiosity, how do you see the alternate title(s) of a TV Trope page?
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"I don't care how much I pay...too much, Magic Bus!" - Roger Daltrey of The Who

Masterdramon> Well, first off, I didn't count "Xanatos Planned This Index" as that's basically just a clearinghouse of related tropes. The other four you mentioned I did count while my others were, as I said, alternate titles.

A Spanner in the Works is also known as a Xanatos Gilligan.
An Unwitting Pawn is also known as a Xanatos Sucker.
A Thanatos Gambit is also known as a Xanatos Funeral.
Finally, being Hoist By His Own Petard can be called experiencing a Xanatos Backfire.

Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

One extra thought I have on Demona, linked to an overall observation I've made before about gargoyle massacres.

While we don't have the details of every gargoyle massacre carried out by humans, the ones we do know about seem to have always been performed by marauders and tyrants, not by "John and Jane Q. Public": Hakon and his Vikings, Constantine, Gillecomgain, Duncan, Canmore, the poachers in Guatemala. The ordinary citizenry don't seem to contribute much more than panic and doing nothing to stop the people who commit the actual slaughter. (The Quarrymen might be an exception to the rule, depending on how things go - Castaway certainly wants to keep it a movement of ordinary citizens, if under his control, and to repress the desires of the more thuggish members like Chaz and Lou.) In short, the guys who do most of the gargoyle-killing are the guys whom Goliath and his clan would be opposing anyway, in their role as protectors.

But I think that Demona's lost sight of this, especially in light of a line in "Re-Awakening" when she shouts that Goliath's clan was "smashed to pieces by the humans [he] trusted". Of course, the Wyvern massacre was carried out by the Vikings, whom Goliath certainly did *not* trust. I suspect that Demona, in her state of mind, has fused Hakon's war-band with the humans of Castle Wyvern in a tone of "They're all guilty". (Of course, the human who betrayed the castle to Hakon and thus helped bring about the massacre was the Captain of the Guard, whom Goliath *did* trust.)

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1 at mindspring dot com]

Brainiac: On the subject of TV Tropes, the ones I counted for my original tally were "Xanatos Gambit," "Xanatos Roulette," "Xanatos Speed Chess," "Thirty Xanatos Pile-Up," and "Xanatos Planned this Index." I'm mildly curious as to what the other three you found are.

Taleweaver: As powerful as she is by the last half of Season 3, I doubt that even Katara can Bloodbend in broad daylight. I do agree that Bloodbending's copious dramatic potential was underutilized in the series, but hey, I suppose that's what fanfiction is for (non-Zutara fanfiction, anyway...>shudders<).

Greg X: That's not even counting the follower-gathering potential of her Dominique Destine persona. There are a Hell of a lot of sick people in the world, and supreme hypocrite Demona has amply demonstrated her willingness to ally with humans when she believes they can further her goals. I do not find it inconceivable that certain humans could be swayed to her way of thinking if they knew her true form and true agenda.

...Great, now I'm imagining a massive underground "Cult of the Demon" existing by 2198. And it's freaky how utterly likely its existence could eventually be. XP

Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"I don't care how much I pay...too much, Magic Bus!" - Roger Daltrey of The Who

TALEWEAVER> But, whether she thinks so or not, Demona doesn't know every clan. We don't know which ones she knows and which ones she doesn't. We haven't even met every clan yet. And yes, I truly believe that there have to be at least one or two other gargoyles on the planet who might think she has the right idea. Nothing in Weisman's universe is ever that monolithic.

We know that when Gargoyles 2198 begins, she is still plotting against humanity, and that her uneasy alliance with Samson's resistance is hostile at best. So, she must be generally well known by 2198... and you know a ton happened between 1997 and 2198... and that her and Angela reconciling was not one of those things.

Yeah, I don't think we've seen the worst of what Demona is capable of, and we know she's capable of demagoguery.

Greg Bishansky

TVTropes> Yep that's what put me in mind to pop back here. I was reading it this week and giggled everythime a Xanatos gambit was mentioned.

Demona debate> I know it's a week late, but I haven't had one of these in years and forgot how maddening and fun they can be. I agree with Patrick that Demona is more the Unabomber of the Gargoyle universe. She's been around for a millenium knows where a few clans are and still lives alone. I don't think that's entirely by choice. I think she probably weirded out the London Clan and others. She parted ways and they lost her forwarding address right quick. On the other question of horality and redemption, I think City of Stone settled much of this. Demona's own guilt and lonliness fuel her rage and without her rage she doesn't have much. I think Demona has done too much to truly be sorry, but I can't speak for the characters in the story. Angela and Goliath may be more forgiving because they are closer connected to her. Brooklyn and Hudson may be less forgiving because they know better. If it were my immortal self, I'd let it go. Mankind does a good enough job killing one another and spreading misery, I'd look like a rank amateur by comparison.

Katara>
I'll add this. Katara carried this same grudge and wish of vengence on Jet. I don't see where the out of the blue question comes from. As for teasing Toph on her blindness. Check out the commentary track on 'The Chase'. They explained they were going strong on the theme of siblings, especially how siblings fight dirtier. It's not just Katara teasing Toph; Toph teases Sokka dismissively and Azula jokes about Zuko. I can't speak for other siblings, but my brothers and I often had no hold bars fights. I had a problem with Season 3's pacing especially with Katara but her threat to Zuko seemed sincere. If she had bloodbended him while she delivered that threat it would have been perfect. I see what you mean about moving Katara away from den mother to a girl on the team.

Taleweaver - [rfootman at gmail dot com]

Meant to add this to the last post...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldseem%C3%BCller_map

Algernon
Make a REAL "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!

GREG B> "There have been plenty of people who came to America before it was called America. Amerigo Vespucci for one. Vikings for centuries"

Not to mention the Aztecs, Mayans, Incans, Hopi, Apache, Olmecs, Toltecs, Inuit, Navajo ect.

According to the all knowing Wikipeda, the first recorded use of the word "America" was in 1507; a good 15 years after Columbus' first arrival in the New World.

Algernon
Make a REAL "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!

K7OP> There have been plenty of people who came to America before it was called America. Amerigo Vespucci for one. Vikings for centuries

You should read a history book, some time, I think.

Greg Bishansky

But in Gargwikipedia there is write Macbeth came to America before it was called America.
And so if he did not know Columbus, with who was Macbeth when he discovered America?
I hope my english it is understanable, exspecially with the last question.

K7OP

MATT> Yeah, Greg never mentioned Macbeth meeting Columbus.

K7OP> GargWiki does not say that Macbeth met Christopher Columbus.

Greg Bishansky

I don't recall ever hearing that Macbeth might have met Columbus.
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"But what do you call each other?" "'Friend...'" - Tom and Brooklyn, "Awakening, Part One"

I'm certain that, over the course of a thousand years, Demona eventually interacted directly with various humans (and indirectly, probably many more). Her monstrous appearance, forced nocturnal lifestyle, and genocidal hatred for our entire species probably ensured that it did not happen nearly as often as it did for Macbeth, however.
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"I don't care how much I pay...too much, Magic Bus!" - Roger Daltrey of The Who

Hi guys, a thought has hit me: I red in Gargwikipedia Macbeth has known hisorical characters like Shakespeare and Columbus; but did Mr. Weisman say that Demona too during the centuries mets some historical characters?
okay I hope my english it is understandable.

K7OP

10th!

Even though Uncle Scrooge and Mecha-Nation fell off Diamond's Top 300 list, that might not be bad news, according to Comic Chronicles: http://blog.comichron.com/2010/10/september-2010-sales-down-but-lower.html

"Believe it or not, a record for high sales was actually set in September. The 300th place comic book, Boom's Farscape #11, sold more copies to retailers in September than in any month since November 1996: 4,702 copies. That's a record for the period following Marvel's return to Diamond. This bellwether tells us about the shape of the market, and how prolific the major and middle-tier publishers are; when many of their titles are being released and reordered, higher-volume titles tend to push farther into the list."

Comics at the lower end of the Diamond sales list--even those not in the top 300--are selling more than ever.

"And that's why this is important, because those publishers are still in the market and are still selling comics. They're just not in the charts that are most frequently reported on. Diamond does release a handful of data points below 300th place, a "Small Publishers List"; I include them at the bottom of the Top 300 table each month, but they are not calculated as part of the Top 300 totals. From these comics in September, we can extrapolate that items ranked #301-370 sold about 250,000 copies worth $1 million. That would add 4% to the unit sales for the Top 300, and closer to 5% to the dollar sales (because these lower-ranked comics tend to be more expensive). Back in the days when Capital City ranked everything, we find in one month that the 296 comic books not in the Top 300 only added about 4.8% to the larger total. If just the next 70 comics today are adding 4%, then the Top 300s are capturing a lot less than they used to; the most commonly referred-to aggregates, then, may increasingly be under-reporting Direct Market performance."

Mecha-Nation and Uncle Scrooge may be selling well enough for Ape and BOOM!--there's no way to guess without a complete sales list.

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

9th!
Algernon
Make a REAL "Gargoyles" movie, Disney!

Eight is the number of Xanatos references I found on TVTropes (counting alternate titles, of course).
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

Wow, slow countdown today. Seven
Phil - [p1anderson at yahoo dot com]

SIXTH!
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"But what do you call each other?" "'Friend...'" - Tom and Brooklyn, "Awakening, Part One"

Five is the number of TV Tropes that directly reference David Xanatos. Zvarri!
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"I don't care how much I pay...too much, Magic Bus!" - Roger Daltrey of The Who

(4)FOUR!!!!
Vinnie - [tpeano20 at hotmail dot com]

Third!
Sir_Griff723@yahoo.com - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
Cheese, it's as good an answer as any.

Second
Justin

FIRST on what is still Halloween where I live :D
Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible, I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka