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Gargoyles

The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending September 1, 2013

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Bishoogins> I'm suddenly tempted to try rewriting Genesis Undone.
Harlan Phoenix
The enemy is clever. We're smaller but whatever. When we put it together, I'll form the head.

Todd Jensen> "unless begotten in one-night stands, or worse, through rape.)"

Like either of those exist in The Goliath Chronicles universe:-).


But all kidding aside, yeah I can see why you think your approach feels forced, though no more than what we got. Plus it does run on some logic.

Now would you have tried to rationalize Margot's willingness to associate with Castaway despite her anti-vigilante views as well, or just dismiss it?

Antiyonder

Also, I think the Grimorum and the Archmage's magical training might've given him a little more control over the Eye than the average person.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" - Sevarius, "Louse"

CHIP> In the case of the Archmage, I'd also point out that his worst qualities were already pretty well exacerbated as it is. Their probably wasn't much left for the Eye to do.
Algernon
"Don't blink. Don't even blink. Blink and you're dead. They are fast. Faster than you can believe. Don't turn your back, don't look away, and DON'T blink." ~Tenth Doctor.

In Goliath's case, it wasn't so much revealing an inner self as it was exacerbating all of Goliath's worst qualities. In addition, due to proximity to Odin, it was stealing Odin's power and making Goliath into an Avatar (in much the same manner as Jackal and Anubis, but more slowly.)

In the Archmage's case, he was a sorcerer who'd been seeking the eye for some time. He probably knew what to prepare for, and so in theory, it was just a power boost for him. But whose to say it DIDN'T exacerbate his worst qualities? Those same qualities that made him use a poison to kill Malcolm instead of just killing him outright, giving Hudson a chance to get the book back. That same quality exacerbated is why the Archmage could have killed Goliath "with a word" but didn't because he was "having too much fun."

The eye grants incredible power, but also exacerbates the wearer's worst qualities. Allowing them to gain wisdom and insight from those qualities. At least, in theory. Fox is a hunter, yes, but there are other qualities that the eye tapped into...Her self-loathing (when she attacked Elisa/Herself) her ambition...Which would come up again in "Walkabout" when she talked about reshaping the planet...There's a LOT of insight into Fox's character in that episode. What you should be asking is not "how does the eye work?" Because no one person is the same as another, so the Eye is going to work differently for each individual person. The question is "What qualities in each character has the eye made manifest this time?"

Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
If you are on the wrong road, progress means.. walking back to the right road; ..the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive man~~C.S. Lewis

I'm sure this has been talked of much before, but as is said I am new here. So what do you guys think of the Eye of Odin. How do you suppose it works?

The Archmage seems to have only gotten a boost in power from it. Goliath obtains power, but his protective nature is also distorted. And Fox becomes a feral beast.

Where's the underlying theme? It changed Goliath in a fitting manner. But what of The Archmage? At the very least, any changes he went through were far more subtle. What of Fox? The eye grants "insight," presumably into one's true character, but how does Fox's change reflect her character? She's a fighter, sure, but it's not as if there's some rabid temper right below her surface. For what reason would she totally lose control?

ESG

Bishansky: Thanks to your posting the link to Broadway goes Hollywood, I found several of the most terrible, schlocky, crappiest fanfic stories I had ever written, posted 13 years or more ago. Man, are they terrible!!!

I can't belive I wrote such trash...

Basically, Angela, Brooklyn, Broadway, and Lexington get transported to Avalon via the Phoenix Gate and end up on a world tour themselves, searching for several colored, numbered crystal orbs that, when collected, produce a magical being (I think I was copying Dragon Ball.)

One of my stories was a crossover between Gargoyles and Terry Brook's Magic Kingdom of Landover series.

Man, I can't belive I wrote such trash! I'm embarrased it's still up. If anyone had good sense, they would have deleted it ASAP.

Battle Beast - [Canada]
I did it! I watched all 485 Best picture nominees in 365 days!

ESG> Firstly, welcome to the Comment Room. Secondly, how much a Child is able to get around Oberon's Law depends largely on how well they're able to rationalize some loop hole in their own heads.

Plus, you'll notice a lot of the time when they go mucking about with some mortal, it's either because the mortal in question came to them first or because they weaseled a token of consent out of them. Fara Maku and Anansi, Demona/Macbeth and the Weird Sisters. 'Cuz apparently, it's not interfering if the mortal ASKS you for help.

"The rule that cannot be broken can surely be bent"

Algernon
"Don't blink. Don't even blink. Blink and you're dead. They are fast. Faster than you can believe. Don't turn your back, don't look away, and DON'T blink." ~Tenth Doctor.

ESG> Here.

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=3152

Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.

What I'm wondering currently is, to what extent does Oberon's decree forbid The Third Race from meddling with humans? Because honestly, were I not aware of its existence I wouldn't have guessed it. It didn't stop the Banshee from meeting Rory Dugan, nor trapping and attacking the Gargoyles and Elisa. Furthermore, she was given no invitation or orders.
ESG - [brevondavis at yahoo dot com]

Thanks for those edits, Bishansky.

Sounds like a real case of "didn't do the research" with the Goliath Chronicles production team not discovering that there were talk shows in New York (though they might have thought that putting Fox and Broadway in a city on the opposite coast from New York would force them to handle it themselves without help from the rest of the clan and Xanatos).

Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders

TODD> I hope you like this one, too.

http://gargwiki.net/Fox#The_Goliath_Chronicles

I'm going to try to fit Fox crying into a teddybear in there.

Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.

Thanks, Bishansky. Those two pictures captured the difference perfectly.
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders

Here you go, Todd.

http://gargwiki.net/Quarrymen#The_Goliath_Chronicles

Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.

I think it was Merlin Missy who wrote the redoing of "Broadway Goes to Hollywood" as a musical.

Incidentally, I also had a little reimagining of the ending of "To Serve Mankind" - darker than the original (as if its ending wasn't dark enough), but giving the Illuminati more of a victory.

Instead of the scene where the Illuminati higher-ups are confronting an uneasy Dr. Nexus (in a manner that suggests the old cliche of "villains punish their henchmen for mere failure"), one of the senior Illuminati members walks up to E--n P-x's aides and talks in a concerned tone (sounding genuinely concerned, too) about his being carried off by a gargoyle and almost killed. "Fortunately it didn't kill him, but even so, I'm worried about his health. He already seemed old and frail before it happened, and add onto that the shock of being abducted by a gargoyle...."

Scene changes to the Illuminati headquarters, where they're watching a news broadcast about increasing concern that E--n P-x may be too worn out and in poor health to continue as President of his country, indication that he may be forced to resign, and that, unfortunately, all of his likely successors are far less concerned about ending the civil war in his country than he is - that all of them, in fact, are high-ranking members of the various factions who want to see that faction triumph, even at the cost of more war. The Illuminati comment that their plan has succeeded and that they should be selling more weaponry to the different sides in the war within a few weeks - with the additional benefit that the public is convinced once again that the gargoyles are a serious threat.

(I'll confess that this was influenced by an episode of "Doctor Who" where the Doctor brings down the Prime Minister of Great Britain by suggesting to one of her aides that she looks tired.)

Good point about "Rhapsody" in relation to "Angels in the Night".

Thanks for the compliments about the work at GargWiki, by the way, Bishansky. I'm afraid it's going a bit slowly at present; the main goal (entries for all the Stone of Destiny's aliases listed at the end of #9) is a bit monotonous, writing the same opening for each entry ("[insert name] here is one of the names of the Stone of Destiny {"Rock of Ages")"), followed by the Categories at the end, but I'm hoping for more variety once we reach the entries relating to other mythical and real objects identified with the Stone (such as the Philosopher's Stone and the Rosetta Stone).

Incidentally, does anyone here know Gaelic or have a good Gaelic dictionary? I'll need to find out what "Clach-na-Cinneamhain" and ""Clach Sgain" mean in English.

Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders

Never mind, I found it. "Broadway Goes to Hollywood: The Musical."

http://fanfic.gargoyles-fans.org/author.php?author=Merlin%2BMissy&sortorder=DESC

It's better than the episode.

Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.

I remember back in 1997, there was a challenge in the fandom to re-writer TGC, but improve upon them. I know Christine Morgan did a re-write of "For It May Come True" and I know there is a "Broadway Goes to Hollywood: The Musical" floating around out there (I forget who wrote it, so don't ask me where).

I remember I said I would take on "Angels In the Night" and then never did. Come 2009, I release my fic, "Rhapsody" which is Goliath's last stand against Demona. A confrontation with the Quarrymen. The passing of the GMPA (which isn't the same as societal acceptance). And I wonder if, without intending to, that was my re-write. Hmmm.

As for your idea for GargWiki, Todd? Hmmmm.... ;)

On another note, thanks for your recent contributions.

Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.

This would need someone better suited at handling screen captures than me, but I think that the ideal feature for a GargWiki page on the Quarrymen as depicted in "The Goliath Chronicles" would be a shot of the people in chairs at Castaway's meeting in "The Journey", next to a shot of the people in chairs at Castaway's meeting in "Angels in the Night", with possibly a caption along the lines of "How did they go from this to this?" (It might fit the tone of Bishansky's screen captures and captions for his review of "Angels in the Night" at GargWiki, though he'd no doubt be able to come up with a better piece of barbed wit for the caption than I did.)

Maybe a slightly better ending to "Angels in the Night" (though still clearly forced) would be something like this: Castaway announces triumphantly to the Quarrymen that with the gargoyles either dead or held prisoner by the authorities, no longer able to interfere, "the city is ours!" The Quarrymen cheer and head out to start holding up stores, banks, etc. The police are taken aback by this new upsurge, and the mayor holds a special meeting with a lot of other important people in Manhattan to decide how to handle this emergency, only for Castaway and the Quarrymen to charge in and take them all prisoner, with Castaway demanding that the mayor turn Manhattan over to him as his own private kingdom. "But the gargoyles are all gone!" protests the mayor. "You've no more reason to keep on doing this." Whereupon Castaway embarks on the conventional Villainous Monologue in which he boasts that he and the Quarrymen wanted to get rid of the gargoyles so that the gargoyles couldn't stop them from embarking on the crime wave of the century, and engaged in all that anti-gargoyle propaganda that they never believed in to dupe everyone into thinking them just a hate group (and mistaking the gargoyles for a threat) rather than the biggest crime faction in New York. "And now that your winged protectors are no longer around, we run this city!" Whereupon Goliath and his clan swoop in to save the day, defeat Castaway and his henchmen, are hailed as public heroes, etc.

Still hopelessly cliched, of course, but at least it would solve some of the inconsistency with the Quarrymen's motivations.

Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders

I'm thinking of this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRNjpQGjP3k

Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.

TODD> "The other was an episode of "The Real Ghostbusters" (which I know Michael Reaves worked on), where the Ghostbusters meet a vampire in a castle in eastern Europe who wants to live in peace with humans (and even lives on artificial blood), but an old enemy of his people, a scientist called Van Heldun whose family has been hunting vampires for years (and who were the original of Bram Stoker's Van Helsing, in case the name sounds familiar to you) has been stirring up the villagers with holographic illusions and other tricks into believing the vampire to be evil and plotting their destruction, so that they'll storm the castle. The Ghostbusters drive off the villagers with enough ease (and again, in a relatively light-hearted tone) to indicate that they're the secondary antagonists, and that Ven Heldun is the real threat (and soon afterwards, the Ghostbusters discover that he's gone to "Plan B", and broken into the castle himself to try staking the vampire in his sleep - the episode makes that act look as cowardly as smashing a gargoyle in stone sleep)."

Is it wrong that I immediately think of this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqxCN-GrRjU

Algernon
"Don't blink. Don't even blink. Blink and you're dead. They are fast. Faster than you can believe. Don't turn your back, don't look away, and DON'T blink." ~Tenth Doctor.

Sorry for the double post, but:

MASTERDRAMON - Yes, it'd be great to have "The Journey" on DVD, and even compare it to the comics version. I've already seen the first act of it on YouTube. (Having seen the Quarryman assemblies both in that episode and the "Angels in the Night" one that I mentioned yesterday evening, I could see more than ever how different the new production team's take on the Quarrymen was from Greg's. In "The Journey", the people in the chairs in front of Castaway's podium are ordinary folks; I spotted Billy and Susan's mother and Art and Lois among them, as well as Vinnie. In "Angels in the Night", they're all evil-visaged men who look like professional thugs. Castaway's audience in "The Journey" could be appealed to with the fear that the gargoyles would carry off their children; the "Angels in the Night" crowd didn't seem likely to *have* children - unless begotten in one-night stands, or worse, through rape.)

I've thought of two animated stories preceding "Gargoyles" which I think give a better idea of the function Greg Weisman saw the "rank and file" Quarrymen playing in contrast to Castaway. The first is "Beauty and the Beast" (an obvious influence on "Gargoyles", especially in light of Elisa's costume in "Eye of the Beholder"), when Gaston manipulates the villagers into helping him storm the Beast's castle, playing upon their fears in the same manner (including the fear that the Beast might steal their children). The movie handles it in such a way as to make it clear where the focus lies; the villagers are defeated by the Beast's furniture/staff in a comical fight, while Gaston faces the Beast himself in a serious drama-type confrontation.

The other was an episode of "The Real Ghostbusters" (which I know Michael Reaves worked on), where the Ghostbusters meet a vampire in a castle in eastern Europe who wants to live in peace with humans (and even lives on artificial blood), but an old enemy of his people, a scientist called Van Heldun whose family has been hunting vampires for years (and who were the original of Bram Stoker's Van Helsing, in case the name sounds familiar to you) has been stirring up the villagers with holographic illusions and other tricks into believing the vampire to be evil and plotting their destruction, so that they'll storm the castle. The Ghostbusters drive off the villagers with enough ease (and again, in a relatively light-hearted tone) to indicate that they're the secondary antagonists, and that Ven Heldun is the real threat (and soon afterwards, the Ghostbusters discover that he's gone to "Plan B", and broken into the castle himself to try staking the vampire in his sleep - the episode makes that act look as cowardly as smashing a gargoyle in stone sleep).

I suspect that Greg Weisman had the same basic idea; the ordinary Quarrymen are just duped citizens, with Castaway being the real villain, and the spotlight would be on him. If only the new production team had gotten that....

Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders

BATTLE BEAST - Something hypothetical that Bishansky mentioned in an "It'd be great if we got it if sales of the new DVD continue to do well" way. We should really have stressed more in the conversation here that it *was* hypothetical, to avoid confusing anyone.
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders

Well, I finished blogging about the first season of Gargoyles. It's been so much fun revisiting this show for the first time in years. It's even better than I remember.

http://ramblingsofpicturebox.blogspot.com/

Melissa

What the heck is the "Direct-to-DVD Story of Gargoyles"?
Battle Beast - [Canada]
I did it! I watched all 485 Best picture nominees in 365 days!

Is Gargoyles Season Two, Volume Two selling very well on DVD and will we get the direct-to-DVD story of Gargoyles?
Jonny Modlin - [jmodlin210 at gmail dot com]
Jonny Modlin

Being perfectly honest, I would purchase a hypothetical "Goliath Chronicles" DVD simply to own "The Journey" in video form.

Yeah, there are some silly changes to the script and it's now superceded by the canon version in the comics. But it's still a lot more satisfying to hear "It just ain't right..." than merely read it.

Despite the bonehead move at the very end, it's still a really good episode, and I'd like to have it myself.

Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"Begin the day with a friendly voice, a companion unobstrusive..." - Rush

No, it was more "suspicion confirmed".
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders

I'm genuinely curious if you expected to be surprised.

This isn't rhetorical. I really want to know.

Harlan Phoenix
The enemy is clever. We're smaller but whatever. When we put it together, I'll form the head.

I took a peek at YouTube's copy of "Angels in the Night" - to be precise, the scene at the end of Act Two where Castaway's rallying the Quarrymen to attack the passenger train (I haven't seen that episode since 1997). We get a brief look at the Quarrymen before they don their hoods - and, yep, every one of them looks like a professional mercenary or violent criminal. (At least this could solve the jarring problem of the Quarrymen knowing, from their strategy and tactics, that gargoyles protect the innocent - if we assume that their motive wasn't "destroy the frightening monsters" but "get some payback for all the muggings those nuisances foiled".)
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders

HARLAN> <<But I do not agree with the notion that I should be obligated to purchase something I don't want to get something I do want.>>

I agree. We shouldn't and no one is. But if we want the franchise to succeed, it could only help. Of course no one is obligated to do anything. I'll likely buy it through gritted teeth, but no one else has to.

Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.

It'd need to be a story that best emphasizes, if not the status quo, the most iconic elements of the series.

No idea what that could be, but City of Stone and Hunter's Moon were both originally supposed to be movies so I wonder if a film would follow in their lead? Weird Macbeth would be boss hog, but probably wouldn't be the most viable pitch. Good a time as any to wonder what Hobgoblin of Little Minds is about.

But given that a DTV is just speculation, it's difficult for me to get behind the idea of wasting money on Goliath Chronicles. I'm one of the more sympathetic people about it and I STILL don't want to own it. I still don't even have a copy of season 2 volume 2 (though now that buying it isn't completely butt stupid, it may see my possession sometime).

But I do not agree with the notion that I should be obligated to purchase something I don't want to get something I do want.

Harlan Phoenix
The enemy is clever. We're smaller but whatever. When we put it together, I'll form the head.

Good point. To help the series - if we must, we will buy "The Goliath Chronicles". Nobody said we'd have to watch it. (Let's hope that Disney doesn't get the idea from the sales that "The Goliath Chronicles" should be canon.)
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders

TODD> I tend to think they wouldn't make anything original until TGC is released. It's a hurdle, but I tend to think it's one we can overcome. Casuals who want the series will buy it. Hardcore fans will buy it to support the franchise... mine will get tossed in a drawer or closet somewhere.

TGC killed the series once, let's not let that happen again... especially since we have another chance.

Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.

ALGERNON - Good point.

Earlier this week, Bishansky speculated that if Disney was impressed enough with the sales of the Season Two Volume Two DVD we might get a direct-to-DVD story (though with the fear that instead, it might decide to release "The Goliath Chronicles" on DVD). If it did just that, which "Gargoyles" story that Greg Weisman has hinted at but not yet been able to tell (whether as an animated episode or a story in the comic books) would you most like to see on it?

I'd choose the "Weird Macbeth" story, which appealed to me ever since Greg mentioned it at the 2001 Gathering - though I'll admit that Disney might think it too oddball for such a release, and prefer something more conventional (say, the gargoyles versus the Ultra-Pack, or whatever Thailog and Sevarius plan to brew up from the clan's blood samples). It'd be a lot of fun to see the cast actually performing that Shakespeare story, and see who the rest of the characters would be placed in the role of. (I'm particularly curious about "Young Macduff", the son of Macduff and Lady Macduff who gets killed by Macbeth's henchmen alongside his mother in Act Four, Scene Two - since we know that Goliath and Elisa would be cast as Macduff and Lady Macduff.)

Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders

TODD> In fairness, stuff like particle guns, force-fields and robot gargoyles are hardly the kind of thing Oberon would have run into on a regular basis if he was living as an ordinary mortal during the thousand and one year exile.
Algernon
"Don't blink. Don't even blink. Blink and you're dead. They are fast. Faster than you can believe. Don't turn your back, don't look away, and DON'T blink." ~Tenth Doctor.

Dread at SHH made it to "Upgrade". So far, so good.

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=370493&page=3

Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.

Incidentally, the most recent time I watched "The Gathering", I paid close attention to Oberon's speech patterns, which I thought were well-handled; they had the right archaic note for a ruler of an ancient magical people (and who'd even featured in a Shakespeare play), with such lines as "A pleasant conceit" about the remodelled castle atop the Eyrie Building that really did sound like something out of an Elizabethan drama.

Oberon's references to human technology (whenever he spoke of a specific example and not technology in general), such as "mechanical men in iron" (the Iron Clan robots) or "man-made lightning rod" (for the force field generators) had that old-fashioned tone in particular, which, combined with his response towards them (as if they were intriguing new curiosities - at least, until his anger overwhelms his detachment) made me wonder how much attention he'd been paying to human science and technology in the last hundred years. He certainly didn't seem to have been studying it the way Titania had.

Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders

Matt and Todd> Oberon himself admits "Anger clouds my judgement." After all, he could have just dived under the force-field from the beginning rather then waste all that time and energy going all Godzilla on the Eyrie Building.
Algernon
"Don't blink. Don't even blink. Blink and you're dead. They are fast. Faster than you can believe. Don't turn your back, don't look away, and DON'T blink." ~Tenth Doctor.

I liked Greg Weisman's explanation; the way that Oberon spoke about that "man-made lightning rod" certainly sounded angry enough to suggest that was his motivation. He was rapidly losing his temper in that battle.
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders

Yeah, I did consider both of those reasons after I made the post.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" - Sevarius, "Louse"

Or, you know, cuz he was ticked.
Greg Weisman
RAIN OF THE GHOSTS - You know you can't live without it! Pre-Order Now! ;)

MATT> Probably so Titania could teleport inside the building.
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.

I watched "The Gathering 1 & 2" today. It occured to me that Oberon made a mistake. When he went beneath the Eyrie to get around the building's force field, he destroyed the generators and brought down the shield. Why? He was already in the building and taking down the force field allowed Goliath and the others entry. If he had left the shield up at least long enough to nab Alex, he might've gotten away with him.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" - Sevarius, "Louse"

Read more of "A History of the World in 100 Objects" last evening, with two more entries linked to "Gargoyles". One was about a reliquary that contained a thorn from Jesus's Crown of Thorns (which is still only apocrypha for the Gargoyles Universe, of course - but still led to my making some modifications to the "Crown of Thorns" section of the "Religious Studies 101" entry at GargWiki). The other about one of the heads of Easter Island (which included some discussion of the environmental deterioration of Easter Island; presumably Nokkar was too busy looking for Space-Spawn scouting parties to warn his human friends about what they were doing to the island).
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders

WHAT.

The filler arcs are awesome.

I was just rewatching some of them the other day and I still love that they're willing to flat out admit the Pharaoh is a sociopathic douchebag while the manga-derived arcs try so hard to make him seem like a kind and loving mentor.

YGO's writers are awesome. They derive so much glee from twisting subpar material. Easily my favorite writing staff from ANY SHOW EVER, behind Gargoyles.

Harlan Phoenix
The enemy is clever. We're smaller but whatever. When we put it together, I'll form the head.

Todd: Strictly speaking, the anime - or rather, the manga it was based on - preceded the defictionalized card game. Later, yes, the two became more synergized, but this is hardly unusual; even most American cartoons, up to and including "Gargoyles," exist in some capacity as toy commercials (Pack-Attack helicopter, anyone?).

In-and-of-itself, the fact that conflict resolution takes place through a card game rather than physical violence doesn't affect story quality - otherwise, every sports movie/anime is completely pointless.

Now, that being said, Yu-Gi-Oh!'s story quality was affected by other factors, including an ever-changing staff of writers, some truly terrible filler, and a consistent difficulty with portraying strong female characters.

I'm a big fan, but it's definitely not a franchise I'd recommend to anyone not already inclined to such a thing (and then, only the subtitled versions...the 4Kids dub is nigh-unwatchable).

But while I could rattle off numerous faults in the anime, I doubt the occasional egregious marketing stunt would even make my top 10.

Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"Begin the day with a friendly voice, a companion unobstrusive..." - Rush

TODD> Agreed, but more power to those who enjoyed it. I'll stick with "Cowboy Bebop".
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.

It's difficult to take seriously an anime that felt like a half-hour commercial for a collectible card game.
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders

Harlan>With "studying" I didn't mean STUDYING. I don't want to get a degree in this. Maybe I write some fanfiction (not necessarily Gargoyles), maybe I write my own little story, maybe it helps me in the future... I KNOW Gargoyles so it's the logical choice for me if I ever wanted to teach myself in writing fiction.

To Yu-Gi-Oh:
I stopped watching this after Pegasus lost against Yugi. That was the stupidest crap I've seen. Imagine Xanatos had the ability to look into the future. No way he would be that stupid.

Neill - [neillgargoyle(a)gmail dot com]

Neill>"TGC is good for showing how to suck at this and you need good and bad examples."

There're a MILLION different things that can show you how to do that. Hell, I could recommend FAR better examples than Goliath Chronicles. Goliath Chronicles isn't even the worst continuation of a TV show I've ever seen. Trying to watch the latter half of Yu-Gi-Oh! 5D's legitimately made me crave something as basic and satisfying as Goliath Chronicles. Goliath Chronicles is terrible, but at least its terrible logic breaking stories only last 22 minutes. And I could at least actually finish TGC.

Personally, and if we're bringing this up as a thing, I could see a lot of ways Goliath Chronicles is an intriguing educational tool. But it seems like, if you're really going for studying TV fiction for this, you may as well try to drift into lessons that play to the strength of television. Even within Weisman's oeuvre, you have a trinity of conveniently underwhelming shows that can all be studied through the same general lens of "these were developmentally stunted".

-WITCH's first season, forced to go from comedy to action mid-way through development.
-Gargoyles's third season, expected to continue a massive mythology with a different crew and more constraints.
-Max Steel's first season, developed to be a 2D show but was then produced with CGI.

You have a nice pleasant trinity of shows to study, with a wide array of results with what happens when circumstances dictate the development and performance of scripts. I feel like that could be super useful and interesting and I'm tempted to make that my newest study project myself, now. Within a Weisman-related template (and you could find more examples if you branch out, I'm sure), you conveniently have a way to compare and examine how different showrunners handle different cases of developmental difficulties while trying to bring those developments to executed stories.

mite b cool

Harlan Phoenix
The enemy is clever. We're smaller but whatever. When we put it together, I'll form the head.

PHOENICIAN - Let's hope this doesn't further the "gargoyles are aliens" myth that Nokkar (and some of the viewers) fell victim to. :)

BISHANSKY - That's certainly good news. (If Disney *does* bring out "The Goliath Chronicles" on DVD next, I hope it'll understand *why* the sales were so poor. Though it's always possible that a lot of the fans will buy the DVDs of that one so that they can have a great time destroying them.:) )

Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders

A rather silly story . . . but, a shout out's a shout out d:

http://screen.yahoo.com/13th-century-abbey-features-alien-231505393.html

Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible, I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka

<<But who are we kidding, Goliath Chronicles comes out next, bombs, and we're back to where we started.>>
I'd buy the Goliath Chronicles to support the legacy. It has it's uses... I always wanted to study story writing, how to make fiction consistent. TGC is good for showing how to suck at this and you need good and bad examples.

There are not many new Gargoyles items coming out, so it really isn't that big of a deal. And I get one decent episode, too.

Neill - [neillgargoyle(a)gmail dot com]

Well, look what's now even more widely available. I like to think this is because it's selling well on the internet.

http://www.disneystore.com/gargoyles-season-2-volume-2-3-disc-dvd-set/mp/1341274/1000316/

Best case scenario, Disney notices and decides to exploit the property even more with a direct-to-dvd movie. But who are we kidding, Goliath Chronicles comes out next, bombs, and we're back to where we started.

Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.

Thanks. I'll have to see to that.
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders

TODD> If you're looking for a GargWiki project, take a look at some of the dead links here.

http://gargwiki.net/Stone_of_Destiny

You're well versed in this, better than I.

Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.

We've also had several cases (though several years ago) of people mistaking the comment room for a chat room, and a lot of questions to "Ask Greg" that had nothing to do with the shows that Greg's worked on (apparently the people who posted them had mistaken it for "Ask Jeeves").

Maybe the person who posted this question thought that, since he or she couldn't submit it to "Ask Greg" with the queue closed, he/she might as well try submitting it here. (And a "Young Justice" question at that, like the bulk of the queue at present.)

BISHANSKY - Thanks. I'd been thinking of a few of those additions (especially the Victoria Tower entry) for a while, and found more when I visited the site recently (as well as a few technical edits, such as fixing spelling errors). Pity that there's not more to do, but I doubt we'll be getting much new information about the Gargoyles Universe for a long time. (The most likely revelations, unless/until Greg gets to tell more "Gargoyles" stories, will be more "behind-the-scenes" tales, such as how they were originally going to have the Magus offer to put the stone sleep spell on Goliath, but then one of Greg's higher-ups said, "No, have Goliath be so devastated by the loss of his clan that he begs the Magus to turn him to stone", and Greg's probably already told all the good ones.)

I noticed in a recent ramble at "Ask Greg" that Greg was at a convention last week-end which included a "Gargoyles" talk, but I don't know if anyone here attended it.

Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders

It's amazing that "Comment Room" is a more logical Ask Weisman a Question tab than "Ask Greg" to a lot of people.
Harlan Phoenix
The enemy is clever. We're smaller but whatever. When we put it together, I'll form the head.

TODD> I just wanted to thank you for your recent contributions to GargWiki. Great stuff.
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.

Kaiba: Two things...

A) Greg doesn't answer questions in the Comment Room.

B) Even if he did, the only answer you'd get to that query would be "SPOILER REQUEST. NO COMMENT." I guarantee you that.

Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"Begin the day with a friendly voice, a companion unobstrusive..." - Rush

Hello Greg, hypothetically speaking, if you could make a third season you would consider doing that Nightwing and Zatanna are together again?
Kaiba - [fsaucedo11 at hotmail dot com]

Todd> Neither Korea is particularly large geographically, but I wouldn't call the Bukhan River and the city of Gyeongju particularly close (yay for revised Romanizations). The city is along the far southeastern coastal region of South Korea while the Bukhan River flows between North and South Korea.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

Sorry for another double post, but I was reading more of "A History of the World in 100 Objects" last evening. Object No. 49 was a roof tile from Kyongju, which was the capital city of Korea around 700. The tile bore a depiction of a gargoyle-like face on it, and Neil MacGregor (the author) looked upon it as indeed bearing the function of a gargoyle in protecting the house that the roof tile would have been part of from evil spirits.

Unfortunately, my Korean geography isn't good enough to know how close Kyongju is to the Pukhan river (where we know the Korean gargoyles in Greg Weisman's MasterPlan live). The gargoyle on the tile looked something like a Chinese dragon (though all it showed was its face), but we don't know whether the Pukhan gargoyles look like that or not. Still, Korea seems all the more an appropriate home for a gargoyle clan after this.

Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders

Just finished writing an entry for the Victoria Tower (and its role in the Stone of Destiny story) for the Gargoyles Wiki. The real-world background section was a bit of a challenge; a lot less has apparently been written about the Victoria Tower than its famous "sister-tower" at the other end of the Houses of Parliament, the one popularly known as Big Ben (actually, Big Ben's the name of the bell inside the clock tower; its official name used to be St. Stephen's Tower, but was recently changed to the Elizabeth Tower). At least Greg Weisman may have given it a bit of publicity in having Hudson, Lexington, Griff, Staghart and Constance perch there during their vigil.
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders

Algernon> And with your new signature to boot.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

David Tennant!

Haven't done that in a while.

Algernon
"Don't blink. Don't even blink. Blink and you're dead. They are fast. Faster than you can believe. Don't turn your back, don't look away, and DON'T blink." ~Tenth Doctor.

Ninth
Anthony Tini

Eighth.

While a lot of people here may share Greg Weisman's dislike of hypotheticals, I found myself wondering this recently:

The reason why the "Goliath Chronicles" came out on ABC was that it was desperately short of a boys' action-adventure cartoon for its Saturday morning line-up. What if ABC had found something else for that time-slot, meaning that the "Goliath Chronicles" were never made?

The obvious answer would be that we wouldn't have twelve episodes made by a new production team who didn't know the series as well as Greg Weisman did and which were therefore generally inferior (though we wouldn't have "The Journey", either). But how would that have affected the response of the fans to the series' impending end. I know that, at least here in St. Louis, the first two seasons of "Gargoyles" still aired on weekdays in syndication during the 1996-97 season, so (apart from their being all reruns, with no new episodes), it wouldn't have been as obvious that the show was ending. And when it became clear that there would be no new episodes of "Gargoyles" at all, how would the response of the fans differed from that in the real world? In this scenario, "Gargoyles" would have ended with the high epic of "Hunter's Moon", rather than the contrived and plot-hole-ridden "Angels in the Night"; would that have made the viewers more content to see that as the ending of "Gargoyles" and move on? Or would there still be the plea for new stories and more "Gargoyles"?

While this is still a "what if" scenario, it's based on serious speculation over "what effect did the lower quality of the 'Goliath Chronicles' have on the fan response to Disney ending the series?"

Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders

Seventh!
Neill - [neillgargoyle(a)gmail dot com]

Sixth!
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"Begin the day with a friendly voice, a companion unobstrusive..." - Rush

FIFTH!
Matthew
"Shall we their fond pageant see? Lord, what fools these mortals be!"-Puck

Fourth!
SomeGeek
http://www.squidoo.com/thegeeklens-cartoons

Third!
Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible, I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka

Second
Wingless

FIRST!!!!
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" - Sevarius, "Louse"