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1. In 'Double Jeopardy' Lexinton and Broadway view the tapes of Severius, detailing the creation of Thailog. (I'm being a bit specific in case some details have slipped your mind over the years) Anyway, Severious artfically aged Thailog to be the age of Goliath, but how did Severious know Goliaths age or did he just estimate?
2. Also in that tape, Severious mentioned how he managed to counter the 'slow aging process'. Goliath would later explain to Elsa that gargolyes age at 1/2 of humans, so once again, how did Severious know that?
3. If Thailog had been aged differently, say to the age of the Trio or Hudson, would that have affected his mind by much?
4. In Vows, Thailog and Macbeth meet for the first time and I do love Macbeths reaction. 'Who the blazes are you?!'. Did Macbeth react like that because he was put off by Thailog's resemblance to Golaith?
5. In that same scene, Thailog slips Macbeth a gun and allows him to escape. So I'm assuming that Macbeth was not entirely sure of Thailog's intentions, other than that it looked like he was double crossing Demona, but it has me thinking. Does Macbeth count Thailog as an alley, enemy, or just neutral?
1. He estimated, I suppose. But I also think it's possible that he had that information from Xanatos, who may have gotten in the past through Demona.
2. I don't remember this. Are you sure you heard that right? Because Thailog from this point on ages at a normal rate.
3. Too hypothetical to answer.
4. He was reacting to that, yes.
5. I think by the time Macbeth and Goliath were done comparing notes, Macbeth would regard Thailog at best as someone to be very wary of.
Hey Greg hope your novel is turning out well I look forward to reading it.Anyway, these questions are about the mutates, clones and Labyrinth Clan.
1). For the most part how do the majority of mutates and humans view the Gargoyle clones? Is it more of a blessing more bodies or a burden because of the lack development and free will?
2). By 2198 how do the mutate members and the gargoyle clone members view each other is it animosity different origins possibly beliefs, respectful because of shared location or have they established a unique culture that blends the various backgraounds of the groups making alot more differnt than your typical Garg clan?
3) You mention that by 2198 the two different clans in NY would have different priorties which is why they did not merge. Is there any animosity from the two clans because of different origins?
4). We know Talon and Maggie can have children but could different members of the mutate group have kids with another like Claw with Lisa despite being mixed with different species DNA?
5). How does the current Manhatten Clan view the Labyrinth "Clan"(not yet a Clan I know) Do they feel like they need to show the Clones and Mutates, Gargoyle customs or is it more like let them find their own way and we'll give advice as needed kind of deal?
1. A mixed blessing, I guess.
2. SPOILER REQUEST.
3. I wouldn't say animosity. But they don't always see things eye to eye.
4. We don't know that. We know Maggie's pregnant. Anything beyond that is a SPOILER REQUEST. (Also, I'm not sure I understand your question... are you trying to mate off Claw with Elisa?)
5. More the latter.
And RAIN OF THE GHOSTS, BOOK TWO: SPIRITS OF ASH AND FOAM is going very well. In fact, I've finished writing it and sent it off to my editor at St. Martin's Press yesterday! Thanks for asking (and for giving me any excuse to pimp it!)
Hey, Greg! Love Gargoyles, excited for Rain of the Ghosts, and I just reread the comics and have a question about the clones.
We know that if gargoyles A and B are cloned, the clones, C and D, will have photo-negative coloration. Now, let's say A and C are female, and B and D are male. Let's also say that A and B do not become mates, but C and D do. The egg, E, is not artificially sped up, but develops over the ten year period. When E hatches, will its coloring resemble that of A/B or C/D?
Just curious about the practical application of the clones. Also, I think a Gargoyles Kickstarter would be a great idea! Have a nice day!
Oy, that made my head hurt.
Well, first - you need to remember that the color change was a result of the accelerated aging, not of the cloning process.
So the assumption that C and D are photo-negative assumes that they were accelerated. Not a safe assumption, but for the sake of argument...
Would E's colors resemble A/B or C/D?
I do not know. I'd have to consult my Garg-science buddies.
And now, here's a question about gargoyles, clones, attraction, and gender traits. I really miss the Blue Mug A Guests, this would have been a perfect question for them.
Male gargoyle clones' eyes glow red, and the female clones' glow white. The complete opposite of natural hatched gargoyles. I was just wondering, how would gargoyles who might attempt to mate with clones deal with this?
The only way I can extrapolate is by picturing human women with gender specific traits that only a man would have, or vice-versa. Most heterosexuals would consider such things to be massive turn-offs, unless they're a bit kinky. I know it's not as extreme as a female with a penis, or a male with a vagina. But I'm trying to extrapolate. Maybe like a beard on a woman, or breasts on a man. Okay, that feels a bit off too.
Now, we didn't see Brooklyn get anywhere with Delilah, he probably never even saw her eyes glow. And considering he was just seeing her as a body, an available female, I wonder just how much of a turn-off that would have been for him if he did make even a little progress.
On the other hand, we have Demona who was with Thailog for at least half a year, and assuming she is 100% heterosexual, I am wondering if that would have unnerved her at all. But, she definitely seemed very physically into him, so maybe she has bisexual tendencies, or she's just really kinky, or maybe she just didn't care one iota. I don't know.
What are your thoughts on this?
I don't get monolithic about this stuff. Different gargoyles would respond differently. To some, maybe to most, it might just seem exotic.
I was sure this was in the archive, but when I checked I couldn't find it. The clones coloring is different because of the forced maturation process. Is that also why Thailog's eyes glow red instead of white.
(I could've sworn I remembered you answering it, but when I looked to confirm the answer, even going into the Thailog section and manually searching for 'red' turned up nothing.)
I was reading through the archives just a moment ago, when a question occured to me about Demona and her actions during "The Reckoning." You stated that the reason Thailog did not clone Angela was that he did not have the opportunity to get her DNA at that point because Demona controlled the release of the mosquito that took the blood samples and when Angela was around, she just didn't release it. But she DID release it when Elisa was around (hence Delilah). My question is: Why did Demona, who despises Elisa, want to steal her DNA and clone her? My understanding is that she didn't know Thailog was creating a female replacement for herself, but was cloning Elisa or making a hybrid human-gargoyle part of the plan Thailog and Demona hatched together? If cloning Elisa was part of their plan, what was the purpose of it? What justification did Thailog give Demona to convince her to capture Elisaâs DNA? If cloning her were not part of their plan, why would Demona snatch a blood sample from Elisa?
Demona controlled the release, but not who the mosquito stung. She released a mosquito once when Elisa AND a few gargoyles were present. She didn't anticipate that Elisa would get bit, nor what Thailog and Sevarius would do with the DNA.
When Thailog produces his new batch of clones will they be carbon copies of the Manhattan clan, or will he have Sevarius dabble about to mix and match, so he has clones that are mixed like Delilah?
Why did Thailog not clone Angela? I know in the past you've said that Demona never released the mosquito to gain Angela's dna and that's why. But Thailog could have easily have had his own mosquito(sounds so silly when I say it like that) and got dna samples from the clan himself like he did from Demona and Eliza. Wouldn't he have wanted the additionally manpower? He was planning on betraying Demona anyway that's why he created Delilah. Why respect Demona wishes with Angela? Did he think the other male clones would be easier to control without another female gargoyle?
Your premise is incorrect.
When would Thailog have had the opportunity to gather Angela's DNA (before Clan-Building, I mean)? He got Elisa's DNA from one of Demona's mosquitos. We saw that in the episode. One presumes he got Demona's the same way. That is, the mosquitos were released and took a blood sample. It's not like Demona could tell them whom to bite. Her only control was to NOT release a mosquito. So when Angela was around, she didn't release one.
Well, I sadly can't buy the individual comic issues anymore. Since Disney won't let SLG publish any after 9/31, I'll have to wait for the trades. I can't afford to buy each issue twice.
I do have a question about the Labyrinth Clan, who are sort of topical:
We know that gargates gain energy by absorbing heat or sunlight during the day, and that if a gargoyle were deprived of this for enough nights in a row, she would eventually start feeling some kind of negative effects.
Given this, what will happen to the clones as they continue to sleep underground every day? It's dark and probably cold and damp down there.
Um, there are no individual issues anymore, I'm afraid.
I'm not sure it's all that cold in the Labyrinth.
A short response to Avator -- ~mammal~ red blood cells have no DNA, but gargoyles are not mammals. Other vertebrates have red blood cells with DNA in them.
Hmmm... I'm looking smarter all the time, aren't I?
Genetics, from Gargoyles in 1994 to now!
This isn't so much a question as general very late reply to a few things I've seen here that had been posted years ago. (about cloning, and how it was done in gargoyles)
I've noticed people mentionned dr. Severino Antinori as being some sort of real-life version of our catroon "friendly genetecist". It's interesting to notice that Severino actually said he'd have a first human clone done around 2002 and then said it wasn't true. The guy actually seems to be generally creepy and even fake-starved himself in his homeland to protest the refusal of the country to allow human cloning. Either way, it can only be assumed that this fellow who really was a genycologist to begin with (and not a molecular biologist), never did a human clone. But the fact is that he's interestingly as "scary" in his actions and words as Savarius.
To this day, few can say they really succeeded at cloning humans. Dr. Zavos is probably the only one with some credibility. But that aside, onto results...
While it's impossible to say how "well" cloning would work with humans, it's well known that it doesn't work much if at all for primates and other animals like dogs. Yes, it's been done with cats, horses, cows, mice, mules, etc--- but here's the catch. Most cloning issues have to do with the mother (the one who will be pregnant with the clone). For example, dogs only can breed twice a year and it's impossible to change that. So timing this with the making of cloned embryos is just too far out. WIth gargoyles I could see an even bigger issue here--- but Savarius luckily managed to create "in vitro" type uterus environment. I think just this would solve a whole lot in terms of cloning difficulty for gargates (or even humans or primates or canines) So already, even more than 14 years after the episodes were written, it's interesting to still see some credibility in the story of the gargoyle clones. Of course we're far from replicating the environment of a uterus and it is known that embryos implanted -elsewhere- in a creature sadly ends into the embryos becomming aggressive cancers instead of lifeforms of their own.
No matter how clones are of have been done to this day, there's always one element that is required, the ovocyte. Which means a female subject is -always- necessary for cloning (at least so far). So unless, again, Savarius had broken the mold... then it seems plausible that he could have used some from Demona. Of course that'd mean putting her under and cutting her open to get them. (would she have been willing?) And it would also mean that all the clones would have her mitochondrial genome (as a perfect clone can only be done with females, males inherit the mitochondrias from whoever the ovocyte was taken from). Now the mitochondrial genome has very important yet small things.. it basically commands your cellular breathing. What's funny about this though is that IF that's how it was made, then Thailog and Demona shared at least.. part of a genome ;)
While this is all speculations, perhaps it could explain why Bronx wasn't cloned--- because they didn't have access to garg beast ovocytes because... no female was around! (how conveniently credible again!)
As a last point... which is slightly negative though, is the usage of blood to make clones. Now the best cells one can get their hands on are stem cells, to make a cloning procedure. From embryos this works great... from adults it's still better than nothing. (when cloning females though they were able to take cells from part of ovaries that seems to give the best result so far) Adult creatures still have stem cells around, some in the spinal cord for example... and even some in the skin! So it's sort of great that "Thailog" material came from a robot scratching Goliath. It can be assumed they used the skin material and not the blood... but sadly this can't apply to the robot musquitos that they used for the others.
Now why is that--- well red blood cells simply have no nucleus so they have no genome DNA. At all. And while you can still have white blood cells... which have DNA... well those simply give -awful- result for cloning so far. It's been done, yes, but with less than 0.3% even on animals easily cloned. Now I'm not sure how much blood those musquitos took but it seems very unlikely that they found enough material to even do a successful cloning with white blood cells in there.
Now with that said, and forward to the comic, it seems Thailog took consierable quantities of blood from each gargoyle again for genetic issues.... which would probably give a better yield than just a drop or two. Still we can say they got skin cells from it to work with... I like to think, in the light of this, that there's some sort misconception about how blood carries "life" in itself... and while this falls into psychology it's sort of silly since we know that "breeding" has little to do with blood, unless you're a vampire ;)
Seeing what another person wrote on the subject, I think it is interesting to note the difference between clones and clonee. It's true "calico" female cats cloned didn't always have the color of their cloned parent. That's because female calico cats have their color on the X chromosome and they have two X chromosomes like humans... and that randomly one X is inactivated at some point thus resulting sometimes in patched colors and sometimes not. This has nothing to do with DNA on it's own, but rather is something that happens well after an embryo is made. I'm fairly sure this means cloned -male- cats would effectivly be the same color than their "father". And unless gargoyles also have their colors on a simili-X chromosome in the same way humans and cats function, then there's no reason the clone would be another color except through epi-genetics (which genes activate and which don't or chromosome inactivation etc) or... as you said... something to do with Savarius' tampering. (So I think that explanation still holds really well and is probably the best)
But what I really enjoyed most of all in the show is how clones were really perceeved as nothig more than twin brothers (or a child) whose mentality had nothing to do with the person whose genes they inherited, but really with their education. Even to this day there's so many people trying to trick the population (specially those with money to waste) in thinking that their clones will carry their spirits, which is plain out ridiculous....
So all this was my two cents, or maybe two dollars ;) To say that I really love how cloning was tackled in the show, it's far more realistic than most would have had it.
I'm glad... since of course I know NOTHING.
I asked this question before. You said Thailog would have insisted on Delilah having an egg. "Delilah is genetically much more Gargoyle than human. She is capable of laying a gargoyle egg. Thailog would have insisted on that. But she couldn't mate with a human without some scientific or magical help."
This suprised me as Thailog doesn't strike me as the parenting type. Does Thailog want his own family? As a clone i found it odd that he would have insisted on procreating naturally. Why do you think this is, deep down does he consider himself something lesser than other gargoyles as a clone?
I meant Thailog would have insisted on Delilah being CAPABLE of laying eggs.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Anton Sevarius begins to clone Goliath.
The Magus passes away inside the Hollow Hill.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Elisa Maza, Broadway and Lexington are lured to Long Island after midnight by a false tip. They are assaulted by a creature that appears to be Goliath. That morning, mercenaries hired by Anton Sevarius steal a stone Thailog from David Xanatos. After sunset, they deliver their prize to Sevarius on an oil rig just off the coast of Long Island. Not long after, Elisa, Goliath, Broadway and Lex return to Long Island to investigate Goliath's mysterious look-alike. They find a Gen-U-Tech Systems tracking device. Meanwhile, Xanatos receives a ransom call demanding twenty million dollars in exchange for the creature. He and Owen Burnett quickly deduce that Sevarius is behind the gargoyle-napping. At Gen-U-Tech, Lexington and Broadway discover the truth about Goliath's clone Thailog. Meanwhile, in Scotland, Xanatos' security team begins searching for the Loch Ness Monster.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Using the Phoenix Gate, Goliath, Demona, David Xanatos, Petros Xanatos and Fox come back in time from the year 1995. Demona immediately uses the Gate to disappear again. Xanatos saves the life of Princess Elena of Normandy. He is rewarded with a coin, which he gives to the Norman Ambassador, a fellow member of the Illuminati Society. The 1995 Goliath encounters the 975 Hudson. The 975 Demona is studying under the Archmage as his apprentice. He instructs her to steal the Phoenix Gate from Princess Elena, which she does. But then she is confronted by the 1995 Demona and Goliath. After a brief trip for all three to 994, the 975 Demona returns them to her time and winds up on the outs with the Archmage. She breaks the Phoenix Gate in two and gives half of it to the 975 Goliath at the wedding of Malcolm and Elena. Meanwhile, all the 1995 participants return to their own time.
David Xanatos receives an anonymous gift of a medieval coin worth $20 grand. It is the start of his fortune, and was actually sent to David by his 1995 counterpart, via the Illuminati Society from the year 975.
A fully-grown Thailog is released from his maturation chamber and takes up residence at the Eyrie Building. Xanatos receives a letter from the Illuminati Society. It is from himself, sent in the year 975. It explains that he sent himself the medieval coin that was the basis of all his wealth. The letter also explains how he set this all up by turning his wedding to Fox into a time travel excursion to 975.
Xanatos gets a new assignment from Quincy and the Illuminati. Hudson confirms he is a gargoyle to Robbins. Thailog and the clones fight the Manhattan Clan. During the battle, Thailog gets DNA samples from Goliath, Angela, Broadway, Lexington, Elisa, Brooklyn, Hudson and Bronx. Delilah, Malibu, Burbank and Hollywood reject Thailog, but Brentwood chooses to depart with him. Thailog gives the DNA to Sevarius and gains a new personal assistant, Shari. Doctor Sato treats Goliath. Goliath and Elisa declare their love for each other.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
In part because both he and Elisa want to conceal the gargoyles' existence, Xanatos and the D.A.'s office agree to a plea bargain. He pleads guilty to the sole count of Receiving Stolen Property. He will be sentenced to six months in county jail including time served, with every hope that the sentence will be reduced to three months for good behavior.
Xanatos confronts Fox and attempts to get the Eye back from her. She transforms in front of him and escapes. Xanatos intentionally involves Goliath and Elisa in an attempt to manipulate them into helping Fox and retrieving the Eye. Goliath quickly catches on and initially refuses to help. Later that night, the Trio, Goliath, Elisa, Vinnie, Brendan and Margot all attend a Greenwich Village Halloween block party. When the Werefox attacks, Goliath and Elisa agree to help Xanatos save Fox. Together, they manage to remove the Eye from the creature, which reverts to Fox. Goliath takes possession of the Eye.
Matt Bluestone convenes a meeting of the Gargoyle Taskforce (including himself, Elisa, Officers Morgan & Travanti, Detectives Harris & Chung, Margot Yale and Martin Hacker). Hacker has Illuminati meetings with Matt, Xanatos and Castaway. Morgan asks Elisa on a date. After turning him down and spending time with Jason in the hospital prison ward, she goes to the Eyrie. The gargoyles awaken at sunset. Fox has Halloween costumes for Brooklyn, Lexington, Broadway and Angela in anticipation of the Masque that Xanatos is throwing later that night. Elisa breaks up with Goliath. Demona recovers the Atlantean crystal that was at the heart of the Praying Gargoyle. In, the Labyrinth, Al is showing Shari around. Goliath and Brooklyn arrive. Brooklyn wants to ask Delilah to the party, but Goliath does instead. Goliath, Brooklyn and Delilah depart. Thailog attacks. Terry Chung, Billy Greene, Susan Greene and Sarah Browne trick-or-treat at Jeffrey Robbins' home, where Hudson and Bronx are visiting. Following Illuminati orders, Xanatos takes Fox and Alexander to a party at the White House. They chat with Ambassador Chung, and David meets Illuminatus Quincy Hemings. Meanwhile, Xanatos' Masque goes on without him at the Eyrie. Attendees include Judge Roebling, Doctor Sato, Brendan, Margot, Lexington, Brooklyn, Angela and Broadway. Elisa and Morgan arrive together, as do Goliath and Delilah. Thailog, having taken the male clones from the Labyrinth, arrives to collect Delilah and stabs Goliath.
Xanatos' probation expires.
Do the other clones resent Brentwood for going with Thailog?
We'll have to ask them.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
When Demona refuses to allow Thailog to kill Angela, he reveals an additional clone: Delilah, created from a combination of Demona and Elisa's DNA. Demona frees Talon, Goliath and the clan. They manage to recapture Fang and take down the clones. But while fighting each other, Demona and Thailog seemingly perish in a fire. Talon offers to take the other clones back to the Labyrinth where he promises to teach them to think for themselves.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Xanatos acquires the Cauldron of Life and prepares to test it by ordering the construction of a pair of Macbeth robots and a statue of Hudson. He also begins looking for a sword that will match Hudson's to be used with the statue.
Relieving Talon, Goliath takes his shift guarding the Labyrinth prisoners. Thailog busts Demona and Fang out. Talon and Goliath pursue them to Coney Island. Goliath departs and quickly returns with Angela, the Trio and Hudson. All are captured by Fang, Demona, Thailog and his clones: Hollywood, Brentwood, Malibu and Burbank (made from the DNA of Broadway, Lexington, Brooklyn and Hudson, respectively).
Second, could Sevarius clone Bronx. And I know this next one sound's silly but if one was clone do you think he would be named after an area in Los Angeles.
He can now. As for the name... depends on the context, I guess.
This is more a ramble reply to Alex Garg's post, but I definitely think this is a fascinating subject, and could make a great Ask Greg discussion.
Honestly, at this point, I don't think anyone in the Manhattan Clan cares much about any of the clones. Any of them. What was the first thing said when Thailog appeared to perish and the clones had no where to go? "We can't just bring them back to the Clock Tower can we? I mean, they kind of give me the creeps."
Right there, the Manhattan Clan wanted nothing to do with them. Wanted to pretend they didn't exist. Let Talon take them to live in a sewer. Out of sight, out of mind. Not that the reaction is not understandable, it is. I think we'd all be uncomfortable around clones of ourselves made against our will and knowledge. It's a fundamental violation of our individuality.
Did any of the Manhattan Clan go down to see them between "The Reckoning" and "Invitation Only"? I'd be very surprised if the answer is yes. The one time they do go down, they want something. Goliath is following Elisa's request to attempt to date Delilah. Brooklyn... just wants to make a play for the only available female he's aware of. They were down there both for selfish reasons.
So, yeah, all of their talk about free will probably was less for the clones' sake, and more towards the Manhattan Clan's hatred for Thailog. They hate Thailog, so naturally they don't want the clones to be helping him. At this point, do they have any other reason to care?
Lexington's only real concern when Brentwood chooses Thailog is how it makes him [Lexington] look. Not concern for Brentwood's safety, or eventually having to face him as an enemy. Lex thinks it makes *him* look bad.
I know this is a pretty serious indictment of the Manhattan Clan. I love them, they are heroes, there's a lot to admire in each and every one of them. But, they're not saints. Which is fine, they're more interesting this way... if I wanted a group of pure goodie goods, I'd read a Silver Age Justice League of America comic book.
I don't disagree with any of the above, but I would temper it.
Again, I think Angela has an INTEREST in individuality and wouldn't want Delilah blindly following ANYONE. Delilah may have reacted to Angela as if Angela was giving her another order, but I don't think it's hard to see that that was clearly NOT Angela's intent. And if your looking for proof, just check out Angela's relationship with Goliath. She respects him as a leader. As a hero. A legend. She loves him as a father. But check out the World Tour, particularly Sanctuary. She's hardly following G. blindly.
And Goliath... in his slow, deliberate, bleeding-to-death way... had clearly given all this some thought too. He told Thailog that Delilah would not CHOOSE him (i.e. Thailog). He may seem confident of this (perhaps even over-confident), but there's nothing to indicate that Goliath plans to decide FOR her. And he doesn't decide for Brentwood either. There's preference and action. Two different things.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Sevarius completes his involvement with Thailog's project and is paid off. Thailog begins programming his new clones. Meanwhile, Angela and Demona are still debating the latter's behavior. Claw arrives to take over guarding the prisoners for the day shift. Angela elects to sleep as stone in front of her mother's cell.
Does Demona have any interest in any of the Clones? They could have been a new clan for her even Delilah after Thailog was presumed dead why did she abandon them so quickly?
Demona is, ironically, quick to declare things, people, plans, etc. a lost cause.
You said Thailog would have insisted on Delilah laying an egg, does he want his own offspring?
Did I say that? Where? When?
I was just wondering why Thailog didn't clone Angela, i know Demona didn't release the bug when she watching her but even still if he could get Eliza's dna without her knowing he could do the same for Angela. If he was expecting Demona to betray him anyway even with Delilah he was at a one "man" disadvantage from a tactical point of view it just would have made more sense for Thailog to clone Angela too.
When would he have gotten Angela's DNA?
You can pinpoint EXACTLY when he got Elisa's, BTW, if you watch the episode carefully.
Of course, NOW he has everyone's DNA, everyone in the Manhattan Clan, that is.