Comment Room : Gargoyles : Station Eight

I followed it during it's release and gave my thoughts on each episode as they came out. Heck, that show was pretty much the entire reason I got a DC Universe account (I really wanted to show my support financially besides just vocally).

As for what I thought of the season, to sum up: I wish that they didn't have to use the character models and color palettes from New 52 animated movies but that's a minor inconvenience. Acting was really on point (special shout out Zehra Fazal and her versatility). And when Greg's allowed to cut loose and go dark he can REALLY do that. But I'm glad that it wasn't just dark for it's own sake.

I don't think anyone predicted how this season was going to go (myself included) and I can't wait for season 4.
Matthew
Insert Inspirational Quote Here:________
posted @ Thu, Dec 5, 2019 5:04:27 am EST from 64.85.228.110

On that note, which of you guys got a chance to catch Young Justice: Outsiders, and what did you think of it?
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Thu, Dec 5, 2019 1:26:07 am EST from 174.89.31.180

Tangent, but just wanted to post that I received my blu-ray of Young Justice: Outsiders today. Though I did watch the show on DCUniverse, it'll be nice to watch it on the television instead of a laptop screen (with DCUniverse not supporting Chromecast to date, I can't throw the show up on the tv like I can with Netflix or Disney+).

Like the season two blu-ray release, this one came with bonus features! There's the "Bringing Back Young Justice with Whitney Moore" (which I'm sure was also on DCUniverse), and five other Behind-the-Scenes featurettes which I've yet to peruse. No commentaries according to the cover however.
Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible, I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka
posted @ Thu, Dec 5, 2019 12:31:51 am EST from 68.231.126.227

Greg > Seems pretty likely. Those that survived the battle anyway.

Todd > I think I already commented on grief a bit, but the way the show addresses death is pretty sophisticated. Tony Shaloub IS great and so is Tony Jay, and the animation is pretty amazing overall. The stuff with the Pack is a bit goofy, but I suppose there really isn't much of a conflict without them.
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Thu, Dec 5, 2019 12:20:44 am EST from 174.89.31.180

So here's a thought, I don't think that this has ever been brought up before... there have been times when I wondered why it was Tom and Mary that escorted Princess Katharine, the Magus, and the eggs to Edinburgh... I mean, I know Katharine named Tom the Guardian, but why did Katharine bring these two refugees into her circle? Where were any of Wyvern's soldiers for that journey? We saw some of the soldiers in chains when the Vikings were marching off their prisoners, but we never saw any of them among the prisoners in Part Two.

So, does anyone else think it's safe to say that Wyvern's soldiers were probably all put to the sword? The vikings could probably sell the refugees into slavery, and they were planning to ransom off Katharine and the Magus.

If anything, this also illustrates how much the Captain despised everyone there except for the gargoyles.
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Wed, Dec 4, 2019 8:54:09 pm EST from 73.167.128.71

"Though actually, according to Greg Weisman, Renard's a Calvinist."

Yeah, I'd forgotten that response. I was thinking of speculation from an old fan essay, but obviously Greg W trumps that. Regardless, the point is Renard was a non-Jew exploiting Jewish culture for personal gain.

Actually, though I have issue with Calvinism (despite being a lifelong Presbyterian), his being a Calvinist is kind of fitting. It reminds me of the movie Hardcore (which I can recommend, with the warning that it's pretty explicit). George C. Scott plays a member of the Dutch Reform Church (highly influenced by Calvin) who discovers his daughter has become a porn star. He sets up his own fake porn company to have an excuse to search for her, assuming she's been kidnapped. He ultimately discovers she chose to join the industry, but even though he disapproves of her choices he still loves her. It's obviously a metaphor for God the Father loving His children despite their awful mistakes, but it also tracks neatly with Renard's relationship with his own daughter. After all, he thinks of Xanatos as having seduced Fox and taken her from him, not accepting that she made her own choice, and he's willing to forgive all her mistakes and welcome her back with open arms if she ever asks.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Wed, Dec 4, 2019 8:31:54 pm EST from 174.28.6.34

I bet Demona has an Elisa doll at her townhouse that she sticks pins into.
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Wed, Dec 4, 2019 8:31:17 pm EST from 73.167.128.71

At this point, I think it would take a long while for Demona to be ready to receive Great Love #3 - she'd almost certainly see herself as through with love after the way Thailog broke up with her. (With the real insult being whom he broke up with her for.)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Dec 4, 2019 8:28:35 pm EST from 68.231.65.221

TODD> "BISHANSKY - After "The Reckoning", I think we can safely assume that Demona will stay celibate for a long time."

Depends on when Great Loves #3 and #4 show up... the latter most likely in 2198.
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Wed, Dec 4, 2019 8:25:01 pm EST from 73.167.128.71

JURGAN - Oh, and I spotted your tweet at #KeepBingingGargoyles. Thanks for it. (Though actually, according to Greg Weisman, Renard's a Calvinist.)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Dec 4, 2019 7:46:12 pm EST from 68.231.65.221

Welcome back, Kiva.

BISHANSKY - After "The Reckoning", I think we can safely assume that Demona will stay celibate for a long time.

Rewatched "Grief" on DVD today. I don't have as much to say about it as I did about "M.I.A.", unfortunately.

Angela thinks that the Sphinx looks like "the world's largest gargoyle". I suspect it's another surfacing of what was clearly one of the major inspirations of the Avalon World Tour - using "gargoyle analogues" (or what look like "gargoyle analogues" but aren't, such as the totem poles in "Heritage"); I doubt that the Sphinx was linked to gargoyles in the Gargoyles Universe - it's certainly too large to have been a gargoyle permanently turned to stone. The way Jackal was using it when planning to "clear the globe" suggests that there might be more to the Sphinx in the Gargoyles Universe than a mere ancient sculpture, though. (I recall a story by H. P. Lovecraft set in Egypt - and using Houdini as its protagonist; I am not making this up - which used the premise that the Sphinx didn't always have a human head, but that one of the Pharaohs had it remodelled to shield his people from its original visage.)

I sometimes wonder how much of a surprise it was for the first-time viewers, to see the Emir (mentioned by Xanatos and Owen in "The Edge" and "Double Jeopardy") become an on-stage character. (I still remember Greg Weisman, at the 2001 Gathering, praising Tony Shalhoub's performance.)

Speaking of voice actors, this time I noticed how Keith David did the aged-up version of Goliath; he successfully made it sound much older than his usual delivery. Another great moment for the "Gargoyles" voice cast.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Dec 4, 2019 7:23:26 pm EST from 68.231.65.221

Just had a nice exchange on Twitter. In a discussion of Jewish culture being appropriated, someone mentioned he hated how the Golem of Prague is always portrayed as a villain. Naturally, I told him about a certain TV show that’s currently streaming and got several likes and responses. #KeepBingingGargoyles
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Wed, Dec 4, 2019 6:24:43 pm EST from 174.237.8.72

Well hello there S8! It's been forever and a Hunters Moon since I've been here, but with Disney Plus coming out and streaming the entire series, well, it's no surprise the nostalgia hit hard. The show is still as amazing as ever and it's always cool to see some of you still posting!

Hey Todd and Greg B! Good to see a few very familiar faces! And even though I don't know if they'll be here to read this, more big hugs and hellos to Gorebash, Greg Weisman, Arno, Kyth, Siryn, CrzyD, Pogo, Aimee, Kanthara, Hudson.... I should really know better than to start listing all of you because there's so many of you! Anyway, aloha to all of you!!

It's actually really, really neat seeing people talking about the show again on twitter and seeing how many people say how much they remember loving the show as a kid. And it's great seeing people remember what an inspiration the show was, with characters like Elisa being such a powerful example for women of color, and the stories introducing people to Shakespeare, and exploring other cultures (or even their own heritage). It will always be a show that means a lot to me and watching it again has brought back some really great memories. :)
Kiva
posted @ Wed, Dec 4, 2019 4:42:14 pm EST from 173.227.62.7

GXB> *Eyebrow waggle*
Algae
“Of course, we all wear costumes." ~Double Trouble
posted @ Wed, Dec 4, 2019 12:24:55 pm EST from 51.37.117.20

Oops, looks like I forgot this date.

January 2nd. The Captain has a change of heart and rescues Goliath. The Captain's spirit ascends. Hakon is trapped alone in the caverns below Wyvern. The quartet of travelers return to Avalon so that they may attempt to find Manhattan again. ("Shadows of the Past") Meanwhile in Paris, Demona encounters Thailog. They quickly form an alliance. ("Sanctuary")

Still my favorite euphemism. Greg was a little more graphic about it at the Blue Mug at CONvergence 2014: "Demona was celibate with Thailog for about five seconds."
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Wed, Dec 4, 2019 8:30:56 am EST from 40.131.43.180

I actually think the only consistent thing when it comes to the gargoyles and their design is the basic humanoid body with wings, everything else is subject to change. Actually I kinda like that the gargoyles of the world are designed to reflect their culture of birth, out of universe anyway. In universe it's stated that the gargoyles are sort of the progenitors of human iconography and myths like the more serpentine gargoyles for the feathered serpents found around Central America.
Matthew
Insert Inspirational Quote Here:________
posted @ Wed, Dec 4, 2019 2:55:37 am EST from 73.158.223.17

Dam looking at what Greg said about Magic the gathering I feel really bad about him and how woke culture got to him.

We know for a fact that he tries to be inclusive and a lgbt ally... but he has to pay the bills and he could't make them an offical couple due to the fact this was against his employer wishes.

It pains me to see so many people going after him and calling him a bad writter.
anonymous
posted @ Wed, Dec 4, 2019 1:58:29 am EST from 201.114.253.3

It's a cool choice, and I don't mind the designs in of themselves, I just find it's a bit too much and doesn't fit the internal consistency of the world. Like if Una just had a unicorn horn (gargoyles have horns), and maybe a few feathers here and there, rather than having a horse head. Subtle, suggestive, rather than them just looking like chimera. Maybe Leo has big blond mutton chops that suggest a lion, rather than having a lion's head. That kind of thing.

It's not a deal breaker for me, it's just a quibble.
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Wed, Dec 4, 2019 1:17:01 am EST from 174.89.31.180

The decision to base the London Clan off of creatures in heraldry both real and fictional to be an interesting one. Besides a lion, unicorn, griffin, hippogriff, boar and stag there's plenty of strange creatures that would make for interesting designs.

My personal choices would be the Alphyn: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphyn
The Lampago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lampago
And the Reremouse (aka Bat): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat_(heraldry)
Matthew
Insert Inspirational Quote Here:________
posted @ Wed, Dec 4, 2019 12:47:09 am EST from 73.158.223.17

Thanks Greg! I'm sure at some point I knew all that. Though you actually left out what your referencing with "they quickly form an alliance." (though I can guess well enough). I guess it is all rather straightforward really.

M.I.A. is an alright episode. The design of the English gargoyles have always struck me as probably a little too distinct from the others -- they don't even look like the same species, whereas Guatemalan, Scottish and Japanese gargoyles all look pretty much the same. I like the creativity, though, and they are good designs. Though I'm not sure what happened with Griff's design, though.

Gargoyles sometimes struggled with getting authentic sounding accents, but these are all pretty good. Gregg Berger, who does an awesome performance, especially in the scene at the end where he releases Angela, Elisa & Bronx, has an accent that's all over the place, but he never lets it get in the way of his performance, which is the mistake a lot of actors make. A good performance can make up for a spotty accent.

I remembered really not liking this one before I rewatched it and I don't love a lot of the aesthetics, but it's a really solid story, the mystery is fun, I think the London clan is probably the most fully realized of the international gargoyle clans. Each character has a really distinct personality and I love their little shop of curiosities. I just wish the visual designs on the London Clan had been done a LITTLE differently. Probably just tone down the heraldic elements to a degree, and maybe incorporate those into what they were wearing or something instead of Una literally having a unicorn head.

Always love the Phoenix Gate storylines. For a long time I felt like the only real way to do a time travel storyline was the Gargoyles way. Though I think now there are limitations. But putting limits on your time travel, and not making the story about the actual traveling through time are things gargoyles does very well. Since everything that had happened, always happened, you never have to worry about "we need to avoid messing with the time stream!!" which is always a sloppy plot point in most time travel stories.
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Tue, Dec 3, 2019 11:14:25 pm EST from 174.89.31.180

I rewatched "M.I.A." today.

I remember being enthusiastic about this one, the first time I saw it, because of the London setting (I spent much of my boyhood in England and have fond memories of my time there) and the "historical time travel" element, taking Goliath to the Battle of Britain. (I also spotted various familiar London landmarks - the Tower of London, the Houses of Parliament, and Tower Bridge all show up in the background.) I didn't realize until later the deeper significance of this episode - we discover that there's another gargoyle clan out there, that the gargoyles aren't confined to just the surviving members of the Wyvern clan. It's a further sign of hope for the species.

(I spotted a scene from "Awakening Part Two" in the "Previously On...." section where, when the gargoyles hear that they're the last of their kind, Lexington closes his eyes and bows his head in silent grief. It makes a great contrast with the revelation here, even if Lex won't learn about it for a few more episodes.)

I still can't help wondering who raised that memorial to Goliath and Griff. Leo and Una's remarks suggest some involvement. Certainly, given that living gargoyles would have sounded like just a story to nearly all the Londoners at the time, it must have seemed like raising a monument after World War I to the Angels of Mons. (Though we know that at least one of the humans in the war had learned that the gargoyles were real, and fighting the Germans alongside the RAF. Which reminds me - I hadn't heard of Douglas Bader, the man in my previous sentence, until after I first saw this episode - I learned about him in this very comment room when someone brought up that he was a real historical figure. Since then, I've learned a bit more about him, and even saw some mentions of him in a "behind-the-scenes" piece after a few episodes of "Foyle's War" on PBS.)

I took a close look at the contents of Leo and Una's shop - African masks, a scimitar, herbs hanging from the ceiling, lots of books (we know that at least one was a genuine spell book), a crystal ball, a very creepy goat-like mask in the cellar where they were holding Goliath's friends prisoner (it looked like those depictions of Satan with a horned beast's head presiding over witches' gatherings); I even spotted what looked like an old phonograph, though I'm not certain that that's what it was.

Greg Bishansky has often protested here a tendency among some "Gargoyles" fans to look upon gargoyles as if they were "humans with wings". It struck me here that Leo and Una were almost trying to be "humans with wings" (without realizing it) in their attempts to sit out the troubles around them and focus on running their shop - and it definitely didn't work out well for them. Fortunately, they recognize it by the end.

(They've certainly shown some strong English traits - for example, having tea - I particularly liked the touch where they're apologizing to Goliath for no sugar because of wartime rationing - and, of course, running a shop. Gives new meaning to the famous description of England as "a nation of shopkeepers" - popularly attributed to Napoleon, though there's some doubt on whether he actually said it, and Adam Smith came up with the term first anyway.)

Griff, when introducing himself, says "They call me Griff" - from the way he said it, I wonder whether the London clan hadn't fully settled into having names in 1940.

I wonder whether the racist hooligans in the present-day part of the story would be likely to join the Quarrymen, if it ever started a London branch. (If we ever get any British Quarrymen, it'd be kind of fun - if a bit obscure - for one to be named Openshaw. Sherlock Holmes joke - "The Five Orange Pips", to be precise.)

Incidentally, when we see the human Londoners standing behind the gargoyles at the very end, this time around, I realized that they were the same people we'd seen staring at the gargoyles in shock near the beginning, when Leo and Una come out to confront Goliath. From the way they were gathered behind Leo, Una, and Griff at the end, they must have gathered that they didn't need to be frightened of the gargoyles after all, which makes a lovely additional touch to the ending.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Dec 3, 2019 7:32:57 pm EST from 68.231.65.221

I imagine that Demona loved Thailog's proposal for the company that she would end up naming Nightstone Unlimited. She was allied with Xanatos prior mostly because she needed his assets and resources. But, as Thailog said, by all estimates her wealth combined with Thailog's and Macbeth's would put them on equal footing with Xanatos... and best of all, she'd be in control (with Thailog). No more quid pro quos with Xanatos (and she had burned that bridge anyway). And, as seen in "Hunter's Moon", she was right.

Plus, I imagine twisting a knife in Macbeth gave her a perverse sense of satisfaction.

As for the timeline of events:

January 1st. King Arthur leaves Avalon on his own to explore the world. The Weird Sisters are forced to release Macbeth and Demona from their thrall. Goliath pushes his unconscious foes off of Avalon. They land in Paris, where Demona awakens first, sees Macbeth unconscious and flees. Minutes later, a confused Macbeth regains consciousness. Realizing where he is, he retreats to his Chateau on Paris' famous Left Bank. (Neither retain any memories of events that have taken place between November 12th, 1995 and January 1st, 1996.) Meanwhile, Goliath takes possession of the Eye of Odin and the Phoenix Gate, then releases the Weird Sisters, who vanish. Goliath leaves Tom, Katharine and Gabriel in charge of Avalon and the Avalon Clan. Only Angela chooses to join Goliath, Elisa and Bronx aboard the skiff. They begin their "World Tour" while attempting to find their way home from Avalon. ("Avalon" Part Three) Avalon sends Goliath, Elisa, Angela and Bronx to Wyvern Hill in Scotland. There the ghosts of Hakon and the Captain attempt to drive Goliath insane and steal his life force. ("Shadows of the Past")

January 9th. Dominique Destine has an "accidental" encounter with Lennox Macbeth. [257]

January 21st. Elisa Maza and the gargoyles arrive in Paris during the day. Elisa starts to call her parents, but when she spots Macbeth and Demona together, she follows them to Macbeth's Chateau. Then she follows Demona to Notre Dame Cathedral, where she loses her trail. After sundown, she rejoins the gargoyles and fills them in. Goliath attempts to confront Demona at the Cathedral and is surprised to find her allied (and apparently in love) with Thailog. Angela overhears their confrontation and realizes that Demona is her biological mother. Goliath and his friends depart. Demona informs Thailog that she has successfully set up their new international corporation: Nightstone Unlimited, owned and operated by Dominique Destine and "Alexander" Thailog. ("Sanctuary") [263]

January 22nd. "Dominique Destine" marries "Lennox Macbeth". But as the sun sets, Macbeth learns the truth when Dominique transforms back into Demona. She quickly renders him unconscious. But when Thailog arrives, he secretly helps Macbeth escape. His plan is for Macbeth and Demona to kill each other so that he will inherit both their fortunes. Elisa Maza intervenes by temporarily "killing" both of them. Demona flees with Thailog, but Macbeth and the gargoyles declare a truce. Later, Elisa and the gargoyles take the skiff back to Avalon. ("Sanctuary") [264]

By the way... "they quickly form an alliance" is my favorite euphemism ever.
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Tue, Dec 3, 2019 6:32:21 pm EST from 73.167.128.71

Oh, definitely. I’ve also always liked the symmetry of Xanatos starting with $20,000 and Thailog starting with $20,000,000. Also Thailog chooses the first name “Alexander,” which is also what Xanatos’s actual son is named.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Tue, Dec 3, 2019 12:13:57 pm EST from 64.106.111.69

I think in the heat of battle, she was more concerned with Macbeth. I'm not sure hate is something you can really quantify -- I'm sure whoever Demona is actively hating in a given moment is the person she's hated the most in her whole millennium-long life. Though obviously, as the mirror shows, if given the opportunity, killing Elisa is probably the one thing Demona wants more than anything, at least at that point in the show.

I always kinda wondered about how Demona and Macbeth's arrival in Paris worked. And how Thailog and Demona met and came to their planned conclusion. There's a lot that happened in the background here, and I don't mind really, it all adds up, it's just interesting. Because I can't imagine Demona is that dedicated to stealing Macbeth's money and that's what's motivating her here. So either she was doing it for Thailog's sake, or she was doing it to screw over Macbeth, or both.
Aldrius
posted @ Tue, Dec 3, 2019 12:12:47 pm EST from 174.89.31.180

GXB> It suddenly occurs to me you could easily draw a line from Thailog's "daddy issues" back to David's attempts to show up his own father in Vows. Granted, David never takes it anywhere near as far as Thailog but there is still that sentiment of sticking it to the Old Man.
Algae
“Of course, we all wear costumes." ~Double Trouble
posted @ Tue, Dec 3, 2019 11:51:59 am EST from 51.37.40.42

It’s funny you quote that comment, because I remember seeing it as well, but I didn’t see who wrote it. I’d assumed it was one of yours. You have a similar writing style.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Tue, Dec 3, 2019 11:39:32 am EST from 64.106.111.69

YouTube comments are usually terrible, ergo this is the greatest comment ever posted to YouTube. A terrific analysis of Thailog:

"I thought Thailog was a pretty interesting villain. His main goal wasn't just "to get rich," but to prove his superiority to his three 'fathers.' The reason he was so obsessed with wealth, wasn't simply due to generic moustache-twirling greed, but because he wanted to surpass Xanatos in monetary power (in the same vein as how he tried to surpass Sevarius by creating the clone clan in 'The Reckoning,' and how he tried to best Goliath by hooking up with his former mate Demona...and then creating an implied sex slave by cloning the G man's two major love interests...nasty stuff!).

"The dude is pretty much a walking Oedepus Complex, thanks mostly to the mistreatment he received from his 'fathers' (Xanatos and Sevarius pretty much treated him like shit from day one, and Goliath dismissed him as "an abomination" upon seeing him for the first time...true he regretted it almost immediately afterwards, but like nearly every other villain on the show, Thailog isn't one to forgive or forget). So yeah, Thailog is plenty of things, but never dull."
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Tue, Dec 3, 2019 11:14:20 am EST from 174.199.19.95

GXB> Might also be a rare instance of Demona favoring pragmatism over personal grudges. As the only one able to slay her permanently, Macbeth is by far a bigger threat than Elisa.
Algae
“Of course, we all wear costumes." ~Double Trouble
posted @ Tue, Dec 3, 2019 9:10:44 am EST from 51.37.40.42

Yes, I think that Demona would have had good reason not to mention her "wipe out humanity" schemes to Thailog. He'd definitely want to thwart them, since if all the humans are gone, his fortune will be worthless.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Dec 3, 2019 8:31:54 am EST from 68.231.65.221

TODD: "Thailog states that Demona keeps nothing from him; he was clearly right about that, since she'd shared the conditions of her link to Macbeth with him, thereby unwittingly allowing him to come up with his plan to dispose of them both."

She shared all that with him, probably also underestimating him... like Goliath did. But I asked Greg if Thailog was aware of her Hunter's Moon scheme and while he didn't provide a solid answer, it was a lean towards no. By the time they returned to NYC, she probably had an idea that he was more invested in Nightstone than she was... for her, it's a tool in her arsenal; for him, he wants to rival and exceed Xanatos.

"When Elisa's making a little chart about the characters and their interactions with each other, she writes Macbeth's name as "MacBeth". Not quite as bad as the infamous "Servarius" error in "The Cage", but still...."

I find that more forgivable, I can buy Elisa making that error when making notes... whereas I am sure Sevarius knows how to spell his own name and would likely have made them fix it. But there probably wasn't time to call for the animators to do that re-take.

"Demona shows just how intent she is on that same fight, by the way (and this is something that hadn't occurred to me before) - Elisa's standing in the room with them, calling out to them, and Demona continues to fight Macbeth without even noting Elisa's presence - until just before Elisa shoots her. (Demona *does* turn towards Elisa at that moment and point her gun in her direction - but Elisa takes her down before Demona can do anything more.) Apparently even her hatred towards Elisa pales beside her feud with Macbeth (which, of course, has lasted several centuries longer)."

I don't think it was that. Demona despises Elisa far more than she hates Macbeth... but I can buy that Demona is capable of pulling herself together for the benefit of the plan. Now, had that situation gone longer or had Elisa made any other moves, I can also buy Demona throwing it all to the wind. And like you pointed out, she does turn her gun on Elisa.

Keep in mind, Demona despises Elisa even more than she hates the Hunters. She's that fucked up.

"And I still get a kick out of Thailog calling Demona "night angel" - his variant on it illustrates his difference with Goliath, a far more flippant tone in contrast with Goliath's more dignified speech patterns."

I never caught that... and I love it.
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Tue, Dec 3, 2019 8:21:03 am EST from 40.131.43.180

@ Matthew

I kinda hated using the term b-tier villain because it sounds like I'm saying he's a bad character or something, but I couldn't think of a better term. It's more that the episode's whole momentum is built around him (because there's just not much else going on) and his goals are kind of nebulous, and in this instance he's just not that threatening. There's no real dramatic tension that Angela is actually in danger.

@Todd & Jurgan

It's not the logistics of it so much or that it doesn't make sense or anything. I'm not speaking of the decision in terms of the diagesis; it's more that it just takes away the agency on Goliath's part, and it's also a very sudden decision. It also just takes away a lot of the dramatic tension of "when will they get home" when they were given the option to go home and chose not to take it because of fate.

----------------------------------------------

Sanctuary is a pretty good episode. Paris is obviously a very cool setting for an episode of gargoyles, and I like a lot of the imagery. Demona and Macbeth's return is welcome. Seeing Thailog's new design and what he's capable of as a bad guy is neat. The pacing and the tension are great, and I like that the heroes have to rescue Demona and Macbeth. Demona and Thailog's relationship is also super twisted and I love it. It's pretty clear Demona sees Thailog as an amoral Goliath that doesn't judge her make her feel bad for what she's done. Which is a nice tie in to what was the last big moment she really had. "The access code is Alone".

The performances are great as always. I can't believe how good John Rhys Davies is in the part of Macbeth. He just makes this character sound so grounded and real, when he could have sounded absurd or silly.

I have a few issues with the episode, though. I'm not the world's biggest Thailog fan and I think ultimately both Demona and Macbeth wind up kind of coming across as chumps here in a way I don't really like. The animation is a bit wonky, and Dominique's accent is really distracting and just makes her seem transparently insincere. But these are pretty minor elements of what is overall a very solid story.

I have such complicated, mixed feelings about how Angela and Demona's relationship is handled. I think it's a super rare thing for literally any story to handle. That a mother can be imperfect, that a mother can be selfish. So it's really a trailblazer in that respect, because it's something even much more adult oriented content is afraid to handle.

I think perhaps because Demona's a recurring character, everything that happens to them kind of winds up feeling a bit... odd? Is that unfair to say? I have other thoughts on Angela's character in general, but I'm having trouble articulating them without them just sounding unfair or overly critical.
Aldrius
posted @ Tue, Dec 3, 2019 2:44:21 am EST from 174.89.31.180

I didn't have any problems with Goliath's realization that there was a purpose behind the World Tour and accepting it - certainly, it had already been spelled out by Tom's warning as well as the consequences of the adventures they'd already had.

Seeing that moment reminds me of an old 80's cartoon based on the Dungeons and Dragons game - Michael Reaves was one of the writers for it, by the way, and wrote some of its best episodes - in which a group of modern Earth kids was transported into a weird fantasy world and was constantly trying to get home. There were repeated hints delivered (mostly by their mentor-figure) that they were supposed to be there to do something important, and almost every one of their failed attempts to return to their own world involved putting some bad situation to right, but they never seemed to catch on, continued to see "getting home" as their primary goal, which felt like a flaw in the series. I was glad to see that Goliath and Co. did catch on.

Rewatched "Sanctuary" on DVD today.

I wonder how many watching that episode now (whether on DVD or Disney +) find the Notre Dame scenes a bit - well, different - after the fire earlier this year.

I might have mentioned it before, but that gargoyle silhouette against the moon in the newspaper photograph looked rather like the Bat-Signal. (Probably unintentional, given their attempts to avoid being perceived as a "Batman: TAS' imitation.)

Thailog states that Demona keeps nothing from him; he was clearly right about that, since she'd shared the conditions of her link to Macbeth with him, thereby unwittingly allowing him to come up with his plan to dispose of them both.

When Elisa's making a little chart about the characters and their interactions with each other, she writes Macbeth's name as "MacBeth". Not quite as bad as the infamous "Servarius" error in "The Cage", but still....

I find myself mentally shuddering during Demona and Macbeth's fight in the library, when they're demolishing the bookshelves filled with books while firing at each other.

Demona shows just how intent she is on that same fight, by the way (and this is something that hadn't occurred to me before) - Elisa's standing in the room with them, calling out to them, and Demona continues to fight Macbeth without even noting Elisa's presence - until just before Elisa shoots her. (Demona *does* turn towards Elisa at that moment and point her gun in her direction - but Elisa takes her down before Demona can do anything more.) Apparently even her hatred towards Elisa pales beside her feud with Macbeth (which, of course, has lasted several centuries longer).

And I still get a kick out of Thailog calling Demona "night angel" - his variant on it illustrates his difference with Goliath, a far more flippant tone in contrast with Goliath's more dignified speech patterns.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Dec 2, 2019 7:29:21 pm EST from 68.231.65.221

To respond to Aldrius' comment about Sevarius being a B-tier villain, if feel that it's important that a proper rogue's gallery should have a whole spectrum of different kinds of characters that can challenge the protagonist(s) in different ways.
Sevarius isn't a physical threat to our heroes the way Thailog, Xanatos or Demona is that doesn't mean he isn't dangerous. One thing that's been consistent about him besides his genius is his amoral attitude that causes him to ruin other people's lives in the name of science or because he wants to. We saw hints of this in "Metamorphosis" and then to an even more extreme degree in "Bad Guys" where his victims included children.

Speaking of which, in the comic we learn that he acquired Gargoyle DNA from Angela and was planning on using it on Robin. God only knows what would've happened then.
Matthew
Insert Inspirational Quote Here:________
posted @ Mon, Dec 2, 2019 6:01:37 pm EST from 64.85.228.110

I've been reading a lot about anti-Jewish violence by Christians lately, and in rewatching Golem I was surprised to see it portrayed so frankly. As a kid, I'm sure I just saw it as a riot or an invading army or something like that, but now I realize it's clearly a pogrom.

I do like that discussion from Greg about WWII. It was always sort of an "elephant in the room" question that was probably too heavy for the show to address head-on (they did go after the Nazis by name in M.I.A., but there was no mention of genocide). But when I stop to think about it, it seems obvious that the Nazi war machine was simply too big for a golem to stop. Powerful as it is, a few anti-tank rounds would likely turn it to dust. But there are any number of ways it could have helped the resistance. It could sabotage supply lines, help smuggle Jews out of the country, etc. It would be a good story, at least as fanfiction if not within the show itself.

From a character perspective, I think Renard's turn to and from the dark side was a bit too heavy-handed. It works overall, as I can believe his fear of death would lead him to take drastic measures. But having him literally say "it's not my fault" is a pretty blatant call-back to Outfoxed, and I would have liked a little more subtlety. It also ties in with both The Price and The Gathering- the former talks about focusing on what you leave behind rather than extending your life, while the latter shows Renard what the next generation of his family will be.

And Aldrius, the fate thing never really bothered me. But I would have liked to see them explicitly released from their quest in The Gathering, maybe via the skiff sinking the same way Arthur's did. Greg suggested once that they realized their quest was not over but decided to abandon it once they got to New York, but that seems really irresponsible. After all, if Goliath had taken Renard up on his offer, just imagine how Grief or Walkabout would have ended.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Dec 2, 2019 4:10:16 pm EST from 64.106.38.254

And I guess that makes me eleven then.
Matthew
Insert Inspirational Quote Here:________
posted @ Mon, Dec 2, 2019 3:05:41 pm EST from 64.85.228.110

Hi Mr. Weisman. I have a question for you:

I don't know if you are aware, but in the "Early Warning" episode of Whelmed: The Young Justice Files the host quoted you on something you told him in conversation. This is something that used to happen now and then, but lately it happens in almost every episode: "Greg texted me this", "Brandon emailed me that", "Greg/Brandon told me whatever", etc.

So, looking at your 2-year backlog of 2000 questions, I'm wondering: why are you giving BTS information to this one person while the rest of your fanbase has to submit questions and wait months (at least) or YEARS (worst case and more likely scenario) for an answer???? It must be really cool to be so intimate and chummy with one's idol, and I bet the host feels super important and validated, but this is some double standard bullshit!

Are you aware of this? And if you are, how can you be okay with it? Don't you think this is unfair? You have thousands of fans who support your work whichever way they can, but 99.9% of them have never even met you in person, let alone exchanged emails or text messages with you.

If I make an entire podcast dedicated to kissing your asses, will I earn the same privileges? Will I be able to ask all my questions without a waiting queue? Will I get to hang out with you, have lunch together or exchange personal contacts?

(Originally I posted this on AskGreg, but then I decided I shouldn't have to wait 2 years for an answer, for all the reasons above.)
Jordan
posted @ Mon, Dec 2, 2019 2:54:57 pm EST from 51.89.139.89

<double-checks> And I'm tenth. Looks like the Disney+ presence has enhanced the post rate back to getting the count done in one day!

Jurgan> Concerning last week; ursine combat is not in my contract. Oh wait, wrong Brainiac...but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't bother.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Mon, Dec 2, 2019 1:32:34 pm EST from 104.129.205.35

Monsters is mostly a pretty underwhelming episode. I had to re-watch it just to remind myself what happened in it exactly. Sevarius, as entertaining as he is and as much as I love Tim Curry is kind of a B-tier bad guy. The biggest revelation is probably Angela finding out that Goliath is her father, but nothing comes of it in this story. I don't really feel like that, at this point, the relationship between Angela and Goliath is really going anywhere in general. And I would have liked to have maybe seen some more momentum in the story in that respect by this point in the show.

Golem is much stronger, if only because Halcyon Renard is in it, and I think that his relationship with Goliath is always really well done, plus Culp is amazing. It feels like a real friendship and the characters have great chemistry. The moral dilemna is also really satisfying and feels very real. Halcyon's plight is understandable, he's very sympathetic and this creates a strong core for the episode.

My only real problem is the ending where Renard offers to send them home, and Goliath is just like "nah, we'll let fate decide when we're allowed to go home." The whole conceit of Goliath not wanting to be brought home because of fate has never really felt right to me. Especially when I think there're lots of other better reasons for him to want to stay on his journey. (Looking for other gargoyle clans, though they haven't run into a real one by this point). I think there were other forces that could have been used to push him along rather than just him trusting in fate too.
Aldrius
posted @ Mon, Dec 2, 2019 1:09:59 pm EST from 174.89.31.180

Greg does seem to indicate that may have been the case in the below post:

https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=460
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"I'm still Lily, and that's who I'm always going to be!" - Lily Hoshikawa
posted @ Mon, Dec 2, 2019 12:33:58 pm EST from 76.173.134.25

TODD> I mean, there's really no way to be sure what was going on with the Golem during WW2. Maybe its guardian at the time did try to waken it but was prevented by external forces?
Algae
“Of course, we all wear costumes." ~Double Trouble
posted @ Mon, Dec 2, 2019 12:12:41 pm EST from 78.152.227.196

(7th)Lucky seventh!!!!!!!
Vinnie - [thomaspeano at yahoo dot com]
Deplorable and loving it!
posted @ Mon, Dec 2, 2019 9:38:00 am EST from 172.14.186.123

Sixth.

Watched "Golem" on DVD yesterday; I decided to wait until the room cleared before giving my thoughts on it.

I don't have much in the way of new observations, I'm afraid. One detail that stood out to me was a tribute to the late Robert Culp's voice actor skills - look at the way he does Renard's voice when he was in the Golem's body. It sounds more vigorous than Renard's regular voice does, but still recognizable as Renard.

I began wondering this time around about Rabbi Loew's instructions to his descendant in a dream - to the best of my knowledge, the only case in the series where such an event took place. Presumably the phenomenon was strictly connected with the Golem. (I do recall the occasional question over why the Rabbi didn't provide similar instructions when Prague was occupied by Germany during World War II, where what was going on then was far more serious than anything that Brod could do.)

Followed up by the line "Now we find out if dreams come true" - another little "Disney joke"?

The Golem does strike me as (like the Loch Ness Monster) a natural candidate to show up in "Gargoyles" at some point, given its parallel to the gargoyles - a formidable protector-figure with links to myth and legend. The obvious difference is that the gargoyles are flesh-and-blood beings, while the Golem is a magically animated clay statue.

(I remember seeing a children's picture book retelling of the Golem story some years ago. In it, the Golem had much more awareness than the one in "Gargoyles"; after Rabbi Loew brings him to life, he walks about gazing up at the sky in wonder, and at the end, when the Rabbi is about to make him dormant, the Golem begs the Rabbi not to do it, pleading that he wants to continue to be conscious and look at the beauty of the natural world around him. I'll have to see if the local library has a copy, and reread it if it does.)

One small pleasant touch: Janus petting Bronx's head. All the more impressive, given that he's just met the gargoyle beast minutes before.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Dec 2, 2019 7:50:34 am EST from 68.231.65.221

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