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was it planned for elisa and goliath to fall in love
ILL MET BY MOONLIGHT
I never misunderstood the title, although it wasn't until I actually read "A Midsummer Night's Dream" years down the road that I got the reference.
Our travelers are finally back in Avalon again. Sure, they may have stopped off between trips, but this is the first time since AVALON part 3 that we actually meet the characters again. I sometimes think Angela's line ("I'm beginning to think this Manhattan is a myth.") and Elisa's homesickness are nods to the audience as well as character moments. By this point, I was quite ready for them to get home. And I had a suspicion that it was going to be soon--both because of the above referenced lines, and also because I knew we'd be getting the big card and seeing Oberon and Titania. The "Previously on..." segment hinted that this would be the episode in which they made their appearance.
In answer to your question, Greg, I can't remember if I thought we'd be seeing Titania as early as the appearance of Titania's Mirror. I think not, simply because I didn't expect the plethora of Children that the World Tour brought out. And, after THE MIRROR, it wasn't until AVALON part 1 that Oberon was at all mentioned again.
The Lord and Lady's entrance was indeed grand (make a platform for yourself and materialize in a bolt of lightning), and their designs were nice. I'd always wondered about the skin-color choice, and I can appreciate and support the decision to not specify any human skin color on their preferred forms. I do wonder about the choice of color though--blue for Oberon, green for Titania. Was the choice based on their distinctions of "King of the Night" and "Queen of the Day" (I'm not sure, but I thought I heard them referred to as such)?
The female gargoyle with the triceratops plate finally speaks! And later on we learn her name, Ophelia! I was very glad for this--by virtue of both design and exposure in the AVALON three-parter, Ophelia really stood out. I'd hoped she'd be given a bit more in the way of character and was pleased to see that happen.
The "conversation" with Oberon always struck me as an exercise in "leaping before looking." Here you have two beings making a flashy entrance, and one of them the Weird Sisters refer to as "my Lord." So what do you do? You *demand* them to declare themselves while partially drawing your sword. You threaten to throw them out. You leap at them. You basically do all you can to piss them off.
Goliath was the one to have the right idea. I like his line "These strangers may fail in courtesy, but we need not." He actually manages to respectfully phrase a request for identification that Oberon finally answers. Of course, by this time Elisa had already pulled her partially-iron gun on Oberon and definitely pissed him off, so Oberon starts to "quicksand" everyone.
"Once and Future Queen"...I'm sorry, but I couldn't help but flash back to King Arthur with that line.
It always struck me that Oberon spoke in the third-person plural ("the Royal 'We'"). Really makes him sound like royalty of old.
Titania intervenes on behalf of our heroes (and just before Goliath's face was about to be covered with soil). "You are over-pert, my Queen." That's such a strange phrase, "over-pert." I'm not sure of its meaning (nor its proper spelling for that matter).
"Why bother with such foolish fairness." That has to be one of the most cliched-villain lines I've ever heard Oberon say. And his reaction when Titania offers herself as prize is just so great--he loses his dignity for a moment at his joy at the mere thought of remarrying Titania. Well, she is kinda hot.
Goliath, Angela and Gabriel are the chosen champions. Somehow, I just knew that was how things would turn out. I mean, they're the main gargoyles on this Island. It's kind of like Kirk, Spock and McCoy. You don't send out Kirk, Spock and Ensign Ricky unless Ensign Ricky's going to die horribly. Similarly, you don't send out Goliath, Angela and Job unless you want Oberon to make Job die horribly. It's all in good fun!
Now we have the "iron" discussion. This was a new aspect of the Oberati for me--they have a weakness! And I loved the "silver be for vampires and weres" line.
Sadly, this is one of the more foolish cuts I've seen Toon Disney make. They seem to want to cut out any close-ups of the gun or scenes where the ammo casing is shown being removed (they can't show how a gun can be loaded, Heaven forbid!). As a result, the whole conversation skips over this IMPORTANT bit of information. It goes from Elisa saying, "Oberon didn't seem too pleased when I pulled my piece on him," to the Guardian saying "Oberon's children have always been vulnerable to it..." It's like they're talking about the gun now! They can at least TRY to edit it in a way that doesn't screw up the information.
Sorry, my digression.
Gabriel complains about "running away from a fight" and Goliath says, "Consider it a strategic withdrawal." I kind of laugh at that simply because I just start thinking of other "pleasant euphemisms" for the same thing--kind of like, "I'm not going to the bathroom, I'm freshening up."
Angela says "Oberon's no stronger than a child now." Goliath corrects her, "As strong as any of Oberon's Children," but it's too late for me, my brother and some of my friends. I just get this vision of a mini-Oberon running up and kicking them in the shin or something.
Back at the ranch--er, palace--the forging has begun. I like Guardian's almost pleading line, "I still think a sword makes more sense." Here, Princess Katharine points out that Titania gave them a clue. Now I was quite interested to see what the weapon was going to be.
Oberon's "pillar of flame" bit is very nice. Even as a Child he has great power. But he still falls into the pit-trap. It's rather funny just how sure Angela and Gabriel are that it worked.
"Dare you try to make me look foolish, mortals?!" Every time Oberon says that, I just want to yell out, "Who needs to try?!" I don't know if I'd do that if I was actually in that situation, but it might almost be worth it to see Oberon's reaction. Is it possible for Oberati to have conniption fits?
Despite having his powers reduced, Oberon is able to pull rank over the terrain quite admirably.
I will confess, when Angela and Gabriel grasped hands in the air, and smiled at each other, I was one of those who misread that. Looking at it now, it seems more like a "coming up with an idea" expression. Immediately after this, they dive towards the volcano.
The flight over the lava is...problematic somewhat for me. Visually, it's gorgeous. This is the best lava in the series, period. And the hands are great (ironic that Oberon conjures up gargoyle hands to catch the gargoyles). And I love the way they turn Oberon's trick against him. However, once again, reality just wants to cut the suspension wires of disbelief. The fact that they fly so close to the lave without their skin searing off, the way they're able to maintain a steady altitude with all the hot air beneath them. Thankfully, the scene is still well done in the visual and staging department, so in the end, I'm all right with it.
I have to agree with you on the forging, Greg. I think I was okay with it until my brother pointed out that you're supposed to cool it AFTER it's been hammered into a proper shape. I never thought about the lack of a mold before, but pouring it on the ground never made much sense to me. Still, I love your little "forgotten scene," Greg.
Ophelia really did raise a good point here. And even though Elisa's argument seems to close the discussion, it really was kind of lame (at least my mother thought so we she saw this). I mean, how would Elisa feel if she came back from the World Tour and found a bunch of strangers squatting in her apartment? Oberon and his Children may have been gone for 1001 years, but as Luna said, "What is time to an immortal."
A better argument would have been that while Oberon can afford to be magnanimous and allow them to stay with no real problem, the Avalon clan couldn't so easily pull up stakes and leave to a world they are not really prepared for. Thus it becomes a question of necessity and survival. They HAVE to use the weapon, whether they like it or not.
Goliath typically tries to send Angela and Gabriel away, and typically they remain. "Gargoyles stand together. That is our way." So things have come to where Angela is reminding Goliath of the Gargoyle Way.
I love the way Oberon's hand looks when he calls up the ground to attack the gargoyles. I also enjoy Goliath's little dig, "But did Titania want the Island to defeat us, or you?"
Goliath has a real "Hulk" moment here. His eyes glow brighter then I've ever seen them, his roar manages to sound fiercer, and he breaks the rocks in front of him with a two fisted smash as he lunges at Oberon.
Then Oberon turns into a diamond. Jerk. I did love the "Now you're just quibbling" bit. And it's a wonder Angela and Gabriel didn't cut their knuckles on Oberon's cheeks and chin (those edges could probably cut glass). Even though his power is reduced, Oberon uses it more effectively than most of the Children we've found in this series.
But even after taking out Angela and Gabriel, Oberon gets caught off guard by one last attack from Goliath. His "Good, very good," actually sounds impressed.
A tangent here, I wonder if maybe Goliath really did impress Oberon--more then anyone else even. I mean, Goliath was the first one to speak to him with some amount of respect and decorum, and has displayed great strength and at the end a bit of wit and cunning. Of course, Oberon still knows that Goliath could never beat him, but maybe he gained a little respect for the gargoyle.
Oberon returns home to what was supposed to be victory and winds up facing defeat. I had not expected a bell--having not been as familiar with the old legends as Todd--but when Elisa gave a little re-statement of Titania's lines, it started to make perfect sense.
I don't know for certain if the Guardian was going to kill Oberon and only let up at the last minute. I kind of hope not, I hope it was more of a show for Oberon, but I admit it would be more interesting if that was the case. At any rate, Ophelia seems pleased that they weren't going to kill the proper Lord of the place. And heck, Goliath helps Oberon to stand.
Oberon says he will reward the "strange behavior" of mercy by allowing the clan to stay with his blessing and bestowing upon Goliath's clan the Honor Guard position as well as immunity to the arts of the Oberati. Still, the cynic in me wonders if maybe Oberon's just trying to save face with that "reward" bit. ;-D
When Titania calls Oberon "husband"...he smiles. He has a very quiet, but at the same time a very strong joy. I guess he really did miss her.
While Titania is speaking with Goliath, Oberon is in the background talking rather animatedly with...I think it was Angela and Gabriel. Complimenting them on their performance in the chase? I guess he can be a rather nice guy to speak with when he's not pulling rank.
And then Titania says she helped "To repay a favor rendered." I had not picked up that both she and Anastasia were voiced by Kate Mulgrew, and didn't until Anastasia spoke in THE GATHERING. As a result, this left me racking my brain trying to figure out when they came across Titania and whether or not it was in one of the two episodes I missed.
I figured, with all the talk from our travelers about going home, and with finally seeing the Lord and Lady of the Third Race, we'd finally get home in the next episode.
I wasn't quite right. :-))
A nice payoff to nearly a season's worth of pipe-laying.
Hey, I'm nothing if not a good pipe-layer.
I was justwondering what are some of gargoyles sex moves?
You'll have to come to a Blue Mug-a-Guest at a Gathering to ask about that. (This is a PG rated site.)
To find out more about the Blue Mugs or the Gathering, check out
After reading your old outline of "Future Tense", I had a couple of comments on it.
1. I honestly hadn't realized the irony involved there in having Demona reform - only now Goliath still can't be reunited with her since now she's Brooklyn's mate! That certainly gives a whole new dimension to her role in "Future Tense". (Maybe I hadn't picked up on it since by now Goliath was moving towards Elisa anyway, in such a way that would make Demona's reform too late in another manner.)
2. I also noticed that, at this stage in the development, Talon had the role which would later be occupied by Alex in fighting Xanatos in cyberspace in Act II. I can't help but think that the later decision to make it Alex instead actually made the scene better, because it added a new and chilling element to it: Xanatos is killing his own son. That made the scene even darker than just killing Talon (who wouldn't have as much significance to him) - not to mention making possible the line "Since I'm immortal, I have no need for an heir."
Yeah, being chilling was the whole point. So we tried to constantly up the stakes in that episode. Nowadays, you could never do half what we did in "Future Tense". Frankly, I'm amazed it still airs.
When this episode first aired, I had missed both THE CAGE and KINGDOM--leaving me very out of the loop as far as what happened with Derek was concerned, and making this episode the first time I ever saw Beth Maza. As a result, my initial feeling was one of frustration at having lost part of the continuity. Thankfully, however, it was easy enough to figure out that the Maza family had found out about Derek's condition and Xanatos' part in it. I guess that made it *slightly* easier for them to accept living gargoyles.
In addition, since I had missed KINGDOM, this was the first time I had seen Xanatos since the World Tour started.
And Xanatos is just GREAT here. He has his moment of "cliched villainy" with the death trap (and even looks upon it as such), but he also seems much more intense this time around. He has that large "staple gun" thingy that he uses to restrain Angela and Goliath, but he also uses it on two seperate occasions as a weapon--and this thing could really kill someone! Even as a villain, Xanatos is likeable enough that you kind of forget he has the potential to be a killer. Even the death trap doesn't drive that home to me as much as his battle tactics here do.
However, before that, Xanatos' admission that he really has no interest in killing Goliath and Angela is quite refreshing--and further proof that he's not the typical animated nemesis. I even love the almost friendly look on his face as he admits neither gargoyle has done anything he'd hold a grudge against (does Xanatos even HAVE any grudges?).
Naturally, once I found out he was after Coyote the Trickster, I figured he was after immortality. His whole conversation with the Trickster is just perfectly written.
I also loved Xanatos "annoyance" at the end--FINALLY he got handed a real defeat that he could not look on the bright side of. Finally, Goliath (with a little help from his friends) was able to get under his skin, if just a smidge. I wondered, and I'm sure I wasn't alone, if this indicated a "final confrontation" was brewing. Of course, that's not what happened, but this works as a nice little misdirection.
The Robot, Coyote 4.0 was also nice, and a real treat for me to have him and Xanatos interacting. Nice design, although the "face" looked weird. More angular than usual, and sometimes the "skull" side looked like it had an eyebrow. Regardless, I love the two playing off each other, and am goofishly pleased when Xanatos, with his helmet on, is talking with Coyote 4.0, whose "face" is showing. I've always wondered what someone flipping channels would have made of this scene where there appear to be two robots talking--one with a half-human face.
Actually, that particular conversation does not speak very highly for Coyote 4.0's intelligence. He releases the Trickster ("I will check...") and then allows himself to be goaded into bringing a building down on top of him ("I should warn you, I'm programmed for vengence"). Yeah, you can definitely see the Wile E. Coyote resemblence. Now if you could have just had him hold up a little pink umbrella a split-second before the building came down on him.... ;-)
The Trickster himself was unique--the only wholly sympathetic Trickster we have met. Raven and Anansi were the antagonists of their respective episodes, and Puck...while he was enchained by Demona he didn't seem to mind giving our heroes a hard time. Coyote (the Trickster, not the Robot) not only willingly helped our heroes, but actually showed some real affection for one of them--that, of course, being Peter Maza.
Also, this Trickster was a lot more subtle--he rarely used any overt magic (a little hypnosis here, vanishing there, changing his clothes inside the Robot...). He mostly goaded others into acting (influencing luck from the sidelines, of course), and managed to take out the Robot by just dodging behind the support beams.
As for Peter Maza himself, it's nice to see more development in Elisa's dad, and showcasing where he came from. His story kind of parallels with Natsilane's, but Peter is older, more set in his beliefs--it takes more than gargoyles to convince him to believe in Coyote the Trickster. Peter also had a much more bitter break with his traditions, a good deal of which comes through with what was probably his last conversation with his father. When I first saw this ep, I had no idea that Carlos Maza had died. Having Elisa and Beth refer to "Grandpa" made me think he was still around for some reason. Of course, that made the final scene all the more poignant.
It was also nice to see and learn more about Beth. I like how each of the Maza "kids" are distinctive in personality and looks as well.
It's also nice that when Elisa realizes where they are, her first thought has to do with her family ("Beth might be in danger"). And I love the surprise in her voice when she sees her father is there as well. She is really happy to see them.
It took me a couple viewings before I started to pick up on the skiff having arrived in a pool. I rather like that twist.
When Peter and Beth start to explain to Elisa about being arrested and she asks them to start from the beginning. I don't know why but I really find that scene interesting.
Beth and Peter's reactions to the gargs are nice. Peter shows that he's probably not 100% on the whole "gargoyle" thing when he refers to them as "strange company." Beth is obviously a bit more open to them, although even she admits they seem "alien" (and no, I did not take that to mean "extraterrestrial"). Elisa, however, is used to looking at them through her own eyes, and as she says, all she sees is the beauty.
Coyote the Trickster's reverse psycology was a rather nice touch. Even better was Elisa's later comment that it was "pretty blatant."
Xanatos tries to fire from his arm-cannon only to have it kind of blow up in his face since Bronx already chewed it up. Xanatos' line here ("Big mistake, people!") always struck me as odd for some strange reason. I guess I'm not used to hearing Xanatos say something like that.
"No way my luck's this bad." I just love that line.
Beth's little pause before clarifying "uh, The Trickster, not the Robot." A nice beat that also kind of winks at the audience.
"The last thing I remember was ordering a pizza." Another bit I just love for some reason.
Peter's change of heart and appearing in the kachina garment was something I had been expecting. However, Coyote the Trickster's little speech was a surprise. It added an extra level to what Coyote was doing and Peter's part in everything. I love that little "I had to get you back" moment.
I noticed that Beth Maza had a different voice actress here than she did in THE CAGE. I'm not offering this as a complaint or nitpick, I'm just curious if there's any particular reason why.
Xanatos and Coyote alone make this a worthwhile ep, but the other elements really help turn it into one of the best eps on the World Tour.
It's been a long time. The casting change was the choice of our voice and casting director Jamie Thomason. But I can't now recall what the reason was. Perhaps the original actress was unavailable. And in any case Roxanne Beckford, who also played Tea in "Night of the Panther" is always great.
I just wanted to post a review for the Gargoyles DVD... something I waited for, and with great relish purchased, after 10 years of waiting! This DVD is awesome! I just finished watching (and listening to) the commentary track.... and was blown away by the factoids and the care that the creators still have for the show. Like many others... Gargoyles had a big influence on my life and artistic career! I certainly hope that Disney will satisfy my desire and put the rest of the Gargoyles episodes (yes the ENTIRE second season!) on another DVD set!
Thanks so much! Take care!
Thank you. Hope you picked up Season Two, Volume One....
In some of the episodes of Gargoyles I noticed how similar the storylines are to Star Trek. Did Star Trek influence some of your plot devices for Gargoyles?
Only one that I can think of, which was "Possession". The bit where three "ghosts" take over three of our leads and one wants to keep the bodies was partially inspired by a Star Trek episode, as I've always acknowledged.
I can't think of any others. What did you have in mind?
Thanks for the "Ill Met By Moonlight" ramble, Greg! (And it's a pity that people keep on misreading it, as well. Maybe they need to read a little more Shakespeare and come across the original line. :))
I'm at a slight disadvantage at reviewing this episode, since I missed "Ill Met By Moonlight" the first time that it aired (or, more accurately, wasn't able to see it properly, since I'd just gotten a new television set that didn't have an antenna yet and so wasn't able to make out the picture very well). By the time that I did get to see it properly, I'd also already seen "The Gathering" and so got to meet Oberon and Titania through it instead. (It also meant that I already knew that Titania and Anastasia Renard were the same person, and since I'd already seen "Walkabout" by this time, knew therefore what Titania was talking about when she made that remark to Goliath at the end.)
You didn't say much about the Weird Sisters in this episode, but there were two small bits about them that stick with me. The first is that, when Oberon's burying the Avalon clan alive, the Sisters exchange little smiles with each other in a way that makes them look almost like a school tattletale who's just gotten someone sent to the principal's office and is gloating about it.
The second (which I think is especially intriguing) comes at the end, when Selene (the Sister representing vengeance) is clearly angry over the way that events have turned out, but Luna (the Sister representing fate) holds up one hand silently. Fate restraining Vengeance - that definitely makes me wonder what was going on there, especially since you said that the Sisters still had other plots brewing. Pity that we'll probably never find out now what they were.
I don't know for certain whether I was expecting Oberon and Titania to show up in the series, but I'm glad that they got in; it would be odd if they were only to be mentioned but never actually appear.
This was definitely one of the more "Shakespeare-heavy" episodes. Oberon, Titania, and the Weird Sisters are on-stage characters, Puck is mentioned, the title is taken from Shakespeare, there's a gargoyle named Ophelia, plus the lines "The game is afoot" (I wonder how many people know that Shakespeare wrote that long before Sir Arthur Conan Doyle created Sherlock Holmes) and "All's well that ends well".
Ophelia raised a good point about the issue of Oberon having a prior claim over Avalon. (Indeed, one question that I've seen raised once in the comment room is why the Avalon clan stayed so long on Avalon; the initial reason was to escape Constantine, but since he was overthrown only two years after they fled, that reason was now moot. On the other hand, anti-gargoyle sentiment didn't die with Constantine - not by a long shot - so I can see why it would want a hiding place that humans could never reach.)
The notion of casting the iron into the shape of a bell worked for me, and fitted in nicely with faerie lore, where the faerie-folk couldn't stand bells. (This seems to have been for religious reasons in the original stories - the bells in question were church bells and the faeries were imagined as being old gods dwindled with the waning of paganism - but here the concept used instead is that the bell is made out of iron.) I'll confess that I don't know enough metallurgy to recognize that the forging of the bell wasn't all that accurate. I also liked Titania's clever little word-play with "ring" in giving the clue.
Good explanation for why Oberon was acting in the same way towards mortals that he'd condemned Titania for acting a thousand years earlier. (Though I did wonder when I first saw the episode why Oberon hadn't had any problems with another mortal - King Arthur - sleeping on Avalon. Of course, the fact that Arthur was spending all that time in an enchanted slumber in an out-of-the-way location like the Hollow Hill would have made that different - as well as what you mentioned about Oberon owing Merlin a favor.)
Thanks again for the ramble. I'm looking forward to the "Future Tense" one next.
Re: the Weird Sisters plots. I wouldn't say never. Especially now that we've got the comic book.
First off, thank you for a great show. It was truely one of the best ever and doesn't seem to have as much cred. as it deserves like Superman or Batman, but then again I am bias ;) I am very happy that there is a DVD release.. now my old cruddy tapes which are worn from viewing can be put away and replaced with non-wearing DVDs ^_^ Just gotta worry about keeping them scratch-free o_O.
Anywhoo, onto my question. Do you think that if by some chance Gargoyles was brought back into production, or one of it's spin-offs... with as cruddy as cartoons are today, particularly with the "modern" style of animation that seems more blocky and fake.. an example would be Kim Possible and Fairy Odd-Parents, do you imagine Gargoyles would end up being of the same quality or much like the original?
In my view, Gargoyles should be laid to rest simply because I think if it were to be brought back into production, it'd just not be the same Gargoyles. :/ I feel a dvd release of all 78 eps would best so they're all preserved on dvd and that be the end of it, unless of course the style/quality would remain unchanged.. but I doubt Disney would opt for that.
Well, there are of course no guarantees, but personally I would jump at the chance to do more stories in this universe, and one of my few professional regrets is not sticking around to do the Goliath Chronicles.
We'd strive to keep the quality high.
But for now, that's all moot. We have the DVDs (some of them anyway) and the comic (yes, issue #2 will come out soon, and we should be back to a bi-monthly schedule thereafter). That works for me.
Oh, and by the way, BIG KIM POSSIBLE FAN HERE. I've written two of them, so I'm not unbiased. But I really like the show.
I looked through the archives the best I could, but found nothing of this question. Basically I wanted to know "IF" and "WHEN" the second DVD is greenlit, would it be possible to get Jonathan Frakes and Marina Sirtis for the commentary or even an extras docomentary like the Gathering?
It was not possible on Volume One. They were invited but unavailable. We can cross our fingers if and when Volume Two is prepared.