Kaylle writes...

Way back in October 2005, the day they released the cover art for the second DVD set, I watched a bunch of episodes instead of doing my homework and typed up my musings on them (mostly on Hunter's Moon and the Goliath/Elisa relationship) in my livejournal. Today I'm *still* trying to avoid my homework, and the queue is open again, so I thought I'd dig up those old musings and get your opinion on them (I may have posted something like this in the CR once as well; my apologies if you happened to catch it there). So here they are. I wrote:

"At the end of HM3, Elisa and Goliath finally get some "resolution" to their relationship. The infamous kiss it took us (and them) 65 episodes to get to. I hate to call it resolution at all because it doesn't really resolve anything; their relationship is still in a pretty uncertain place and kissing hardly changes that. But it's the first time they both admit what's going on between them and do something, however small, about it. And it provided some small measure of satisfaction for the fans, who were just beginning to realize that was all we were going to get. I remember being so hopeful, so excited, 13 years old, watching in awe as finally, *finally* the two of them "got together." I hadn't realized it was the season finale, although really it was pretty obvious (I didn't know cartoon shows *had* season finales). And I certainly hadn't realized it was, for all intents and purposes, the end." [Of course, I know now what I didn't know in October 2005-- it wasn't the end! We have a comic book!]

"But I digress. Anyway, I noticed two things today. First, in HM1, during the scene on the subway: after he dispatches the muggers, Elisa goes to Goliath, lays her head down on his chest, and says, "Nobody messes with my best friend." I always thought that was kind of a dangerous thing to say in public, although sweet. But I noticed today the way that Goliath reacts to it. Maybe I never noticed before, or maybe I just don't remember, but he reaches to touch her hair and then stops himself, grimaces, and pulls away. It happens so quickly it's easy to miss it. But something about that aborted gesture of affection really intrigues me.

"Did he stop because he thought she wouldn't appreciate the sentiment? Haven't we seen him touch her that way before? It's hard to remember because the two of them get so very few explicitly affectionate moments. There aren't a lot of episodes that deal with them. (The most obvious is The Mirror, but that was so long before this that it's hard to use it as an indication of their relationship now. Although there is that moment, while Demona and Puck are spying on them via the mirror, when Elisa sort of nuzzles her face into Goliath's shoulder. I'd love to know what the conversation was that led her to do *that*...) Their relationship is very clear to the viewer, but it's also very understated. Any romantic moments like that are part of some larger scene, some larger conversation, etc. (I was half-convinced, when I was a kid, that it was because Disney didn't want to deal with the xenophilia aspect. Now I can see that it's in character for them to act that way; both of them know what's going on but they can't admit it, can't act on it because they're certain there's no future in it. But when you're 12-13 years old you miss some of the subtler points <g>.) So, while I can think of romantic moments between Goliath and Demona, MacBeth and Gruoch, etc, Goliath and Elisa are much more subtle than that.

"So then I went picking through episodes looking for Goliath/Elisa moments. (Aren't they cute in Eye of the Beholder, dancing in their Halloween 'costumes'? Even the trio notices. "They should have Halloween more often.") As early as Awakenings 5, we see Elisa take his face in her hands. The closest embrace I can find is in Heritage, after Elisa's disappearance. They both look pretty happy to see each other there, and she doesn't show any reluctance to touch him or be held by him.

"So anyway, it could be because he thinks she won't appreciate the gesture. She has shied away from discussing their relationship in the past. Or it could be because they're in a train full of people (although, again, she's pretty much given them away to everyone on the train already).

"Or it could be because he doesn't want to let himself touch her? Because letting himself caress her hair (the gargoyle equivalent of a kiss, even if Elisa doesn't necessarily know that) means pretending, if only for a moment, that they have a relationship? And because he can't stand doing that to himself over and over again? Something to think about, anyway.

"The other thing that I noticed was that, although Goliath saw Elisa kiss Jason and heard what she said about her feelings, she doesn't know that. As far as she knows, nothing between them has changed since HM1. Obviously they're both happy to see each other after Jason rescues her (although Goliath is probably "happier" than Elisa is; at least, she didn't think he was dead). But nothing has happened, to her knowledge, to bring things between them to a head. So why does she finally decide to admit her feelings to him? Her dialogue doesn't really tell us anything, either. He says, "So... Things have come full circle," and Elisa replies, "Somehow, they always do. You know how I feel about you, right?" She brings it up apropos of nothing. (He doesn't seem startled by it, either. Why is that? I sure as heck was!)

"Is it her relationship with Jason? The realization that, even when presented with someone human who seems to be everything she's looking for (at least at first), she still wants Goliath? When offered the normal life she thinks she wants, she still chooses Goliath and the clan, and all the uncertainty and upheaval they imply. Is that it? Of course, they've had a traumatic couple of days, and that could be a reason all by itself."

At that point I decided that I'd spent way too much time analyzing things and that I really ought to be doing work, so I stopped. But I'm still intrigued by it all. I guess if I had to distill it down into a few questions, they would be:

1) Is there a reason for Goliath's gesture (or lack thereof) on the train, or am I thinking too hard/paying too much attention to tiny details?

2) Does Elisa know that touching hair is the gargoyle equivalent of a kiss? (Maybe not in so many words, since I doubt the gargoyles think of it in terms of how their gestures of affection are equivalent to human gestures, but does she realize the sort of underlying meaning of a touch like that?) And if so, how does she know? Just from observation and intuition? Did someone tell her?

3) Why does Elisa finally speak up at the end of HM3? What changes her mind about keeping quiet?

Thanks for listening to me ramble on a bit, and for taking the time to answer our questions. It's only out of love that we analyze every aspect of things :)

Derek writes...

Considering the Labyrinth clan is being "raised" by the mutates will they have more "humanly" customs than Gargoyles custom's i.e will they use rookeries, will they mate for life. Are these gargoyle customs taught or genetic?

Brigadoon Traveller writes...

First off I want to say that I am enjoying the continuation of Gargoyles in the new SLG comics. My copy of #3 is still in transit (and has been for the past two weeks - hopefully it'll have made its way across to this side of the Atlantic once you get this - the waiting is agonising!) once I get my copy I'll be sure to post a review of it here first thing. I have to admit that at first I was a bit wary about the series continuing as a comic, as I'm not really much a of a comic book reader (but then again I'm not much of an animation buff either). But nonetheless the series is really going quite well so far and I am looking forward to the new spin off series "Bad Guys".

Anyway onto my question; when you first announced the release of the SLG comic along with the set-up of Creature Comics, you gave us some of the events leading up to the sign up with SLG. When you hit your first hurdle with Disney (i.e. lack of money) you mentioned that you guys at Creature Comics (after becoming CreatureComics.com) were prepared to release stories using your own original properties.

My question is how far did you guys get with the production of these properties (if you did at all)? And how much did Gargoyles play a part in influencing any of the characters and worlds you came up (assuming you got that far)?

Anyway thanks for your time.

Tony writes...

1) Is it too late to reconsider the decision to have the "Bad Guys" comic in black and white? I know the economic decision behind it, but I find that certain comics and webstrips that have action in black and white are very hard to follow. I just hope the action isn't hard to follow in "Bad Guys". I believe this spin off will become a great success, and I'd love to see it at full potential which would be having it in color.

2) What is the potential price point for the "Bad Guys" comic?

3) If the first six are successful, will possible future releases remain in black and white?

4) Is the plan for "Pendragon" also black and white?

Thank you for your time.

Adam writes...

Hi Greg. I have a question about Bronx. If Bronx had had a mate before who was the same age as him, would they have had an egg in the rookery that became the Avalon clan? I have looked through the archives and found conficting answers. Bronx hatched in 978, would/could he and a mate have an egg in 998 or would 1018 be the eariest (same as the Trio). Since gargoyle beasts age faster than gargoyles and can potentially lay one more egg, I would think that 1018 would be the eariest for Bronx and a potential mate. Thank.

Laura 'ad astra' Sack writes...

Adendum-
I love the "you did check the archives?" pop up.

Laura 'ad astra' Sack writes...

I read the new issue the day it came out, but it took me this long to read through the other posts about it... it was made somewhat harder to catch up since my home computer gave up the ghost (loveable hubby has been running an ~unupdated~ virus protection for 5 years), and my company blocks s8 for some unfathomable reason, (EBAY I get, IM I get, but s8? I can go to girl-wonder.org with no problem so it isn't a bulletin board thing, and it's not like I can say I have a 'work related' reason calling for access to the site).

Now that I've read and read I can say I am mucho happy. There had been some small concerns I had reading issues 1 and 2 that I assumed would go away with new material, and they did. I'm still not in love with the art, but it is consistent, emotive and reminiscent of the cartoon, and those things are actually more important. And the coloring is great. You know, actually, the art really is growing on me...

The writing was top notch- I'm back to imagining it with the voices running through my head. We got new characters and development on the old ones. The flashbacks were well constructed- besides not being boring to a longtime fan, they gave personality to the newish character telling it. Even Margot Yale is transitioning more and more from being the Yuppie punchline to being an important character, and her being on the taskforce may well be a highlight.

When I first saw the 36/32 greeting I thought it was an FBI thing, upon repeat I figured it was Illuminati related, and the idea that Matt has really progressed in the society leads to so many interesting ideas and conflicts.

I was surpised to see 'the talk' come so soon. It's only been 2 'episodes' since she happily kissed Goliath, and those two involved a date. But something about the art made it feel that enough time passed to make her think these things, and her conversations with Jason and Morgan really sold the idea that these concerns would be foremost in her mind. We got a good dose of Jason's nobility and self pity, and I really liked getting to know Morgan; how he innocently blurts out his surprise that she could have been silently dating a guy for two years and then tries as politely as possible to cover it.

Great art moment when the distance between Goliath and Elisa is both figurative and literal on top of the castle. Great "Wha?!" moment when Elisa talks about Goliath's options being limited and the next page showing Demona. Of course she meant, and he understood, Delilah, but it was a fun mess with your head moment. More fascinating is Delilah's response. It was subtle enough that it doesn't have to be the meat of this story, but it is definately going to come up. When she says "if that is you wish" you know she has a lot to learn about free will and self determination, probably even more than the other clones.

(Yeah. "Send in the clones!" Way hoaky. I would not have said that in their place...if only because I would have already said it too many times and have incured a promise of punishment from the other Labrythians if I were to ever do it again;)

I'll send a much shorter letter for the letter column, but it does bring about the question: why no e-mail address for the letter column?

Thanks and I'm waiting with bated breath for #4 and Bad Guys!

Antiyonder writes...

On a much lighter note, I thought I'd comment on the Kim Possible you wrote. I saw it on Disney Channel.com, and am going to record it when it comes on (I'll be gone this evening). Overall, it's a pretty great episode, better than Queen Bebe (Not that I dislike that episode).

Recently my stepsister had a baby last summer, she's really adorable. So, I can really understand the Stoppable's feelings towards Hana. Right up there with Alexander Xanatos (as a baby).

To bad Ron had to go through all of that flour and of course sugar. Would his preference of Roman Numeral be a reference to the "Bricks of Fury III" in "Team Impossible"?

After some have pointed it out, I did catch the Gargoyles reference in there. That being the statues coming alive. Two questions on that:

1. Did you put any Gargoyle references in Queen Bebe? I would guess no as no one pointed it out, but you never know.

2. Any idea if Hana could say harassment?

I recall hearing that Queen Bebe was changed quite a bit from how you wrote the episode, did Big Bother turn out better in your opinion?

Antiyonder writes...

Most of us have been talking about the yet to be released Volume of Gargoyles, whether it's in the comment room or submitting in the Ask A Question. I do agree that that the Disney blaming has gone overboard at times (I'm guilty of it as well). I can't speak for everyone of course, but I'm going to do my best to describe why we tend to blame the company so to speak (I know you don't mean any offense). Since, you have more business experience than some of us, your POV would be helpful.

1. Again part of the reason why we aren't seeing anymore DVDs are lack of purchases from the previous sets. Yes part of it is due to lack of sales, but also lack of advertising. It's not just DVDs, but with say network television (Not just with Disney). Aside from quality there are many reasons a show would turn up with low ratings, like:

- Lack of commericals, hence the viewer doesn't know it exist.
- The show is aired so much that the viewer gets tired of it, or so little they don't have a chance to draw in fans. Odd thing about that is that a particular program is aired constantly when it only has 13/26 episodes, yet when/if it has 65-78 episode, then it's not aired so often. Should be the other way around.
- The show is aired in a timeslot that most people don't watch.

It just seems like the higher ups don't really understand their audience, or they do but don't want to take responsibility. After all, admiting to a mistake is viewed by some to be a sign of shame and humiliation rather than being responsible.

1a. Also, with the comics, I heard sales lowered for #3. That's due of course to lack of a consistant release. My question is if Disney will acknowledge that lower sales are due to delaying approval, or will they assume that the comic itself is the problem. You can count on us hardcore (in my case semi-hardcore) fans to stick with it to the end, but as has been said in the comment room newcomers or casual buyers are going to be put off by the delays if it keeps up. Regardless, I'm trusting that the situation should improve.

2. Then there's the concept of money. It seems like the higher ups in the business never heard of the saying "You have to spend money to make money". It just seems like with any product (DVD, Comics, etc) they expect to make a fortune by investing a few cents (not literaly mind you).

2a. I know that companies like Disney are in the business to make money and I repsect that. The problem is it seems their ambition is more of an obsession. For instance, I know that you're sure as heck not doing all of this work for free, but for you the money isn't a one-tracked mind thing. Same could be said of folks like Bruce Timm, Paul Dini, Tom Defalco, Peter David, Steve Loter, Mark McCorkie, Bob Schooley.

I really hope this came across as a constructive complaint, rather than a mindless hatefilled rant. After all, I'm not always good at using the right words, to voice my opinion.