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So, here was Matt, enjoying his evening, finishing up dinner and dishes and about to settle down to a good book before bedtime when alas he decides to peak into the Comment Room and realizes the Ask Greg queue closes in mere hours (so he gathers) and he has forgotten to post his 2007 Gathering Journal!!!
So in a mad rush to finish he begins to type. Without further ado...
After barely arranging to get Friday off work and saying the goodbyes to my Jason (the boyfriend who will probably attend G '08 with me) I hit the road around 5 AM CT. It had been a while since I had a nice road trip and there is always that fun feeling about leaving when it is still dark outside. Long (and boring) story short, I arrived in the town of Pigeon Forge at about 3:15 PM ET. My first impression of the town was that it seemed to be brimming with traffic and pancake houses. I was relieved to discover the hotel without incident (aside from the aforementioned traffic) and checked in. I quickly found my room, threw down my stuff and made my way to the convention area. I found it a good sign that right after checking in at the Staff table, I ran back to my room to leave some stuff there and on my way back ran into Greg Weisman himself. I was amazed that Greg seemed to remember me by face alone (or maybe he read my badge, but he seemed like he knew me). I wish I had his talent of face/name recognition. I'd only met him once before briefly in 2002. Anyway, Greg tried to convince me to try out for the Radio Play. I had considered it for months, but I greatly enjoy listening to the production so I opted out. Perhaps next year. I'll think about it. Greg seemed in a hurry for something and I made my way back to the art room/dealer's room area. On the way I ran into Harvester of Eyes. We hadn't met before and chatted about Putt-Putt golf a bit and how he dislikes it and then I finally made it back to the main convention room. As I was looking around the wares, I noticed one space left on the sign up sheet for Mug-A-Guest with Greg and I eagerly signed up. I went to examine the art, which was naturally quite good. There were a few really fun pieces, kudos to those who submitted art. I was happily surprised to see a few sample pages for Issue #5. I felt almost guilty seeing Brook's costume, Dr. Sato and Mary and Finella. Of course, at the time I didn't know that I was going to soon learn much more about Issue #5. Ran into Greg X and chatted about the comics, the Comment Room and other silliness for a bit.
The time for Opening Ceremonies came around and I eagerly found a good seat... of course, not long afterwards I found myself sitting on the floor. It was all very kindergarten story/naptime-esque.
I don't care how many times Greg has been through the Opening Ceremonies stuff, I loved seeing and hearing it all. However, I guess Greg felt that he needed to add something new to the routine, so he proceeded to destroy the hotel podium to the delight and amusement of the con-goers .
After the end of Opening Ceremonies, I was famished and made my way to dinner at Shoney's across the street. I went back to my room and laid on the bed and enjoyed that "I'm on vacation" feeling for a while and then, feeling fat, went swimming to burn off the Shoney's. Exhausted, I went back to the room and passed out.
Slept pretty late. Reveled in the feeling of not waking up to an alarm. Took my time getting ready and went down to the complimentary breakfast. Finding no fruit in sight, I shrugged and gorged on biscuits and gravy like I hadn't done in years. Vacation, right?
I made my way back to the con and attended the "Fan to Pro" panel with Karine (and Samuel). I felt guilty again when Karine accidently let slip Quincy's name, but that was nothing compared to later. Anyway, the panel was great, I really enjoyed listening to Karine and there were some great questions. Even though I'm not much of an artist, it was fun. After that I had the Mug with Greg. This was a lot of fun and it really made me realize why the Gathering is so great. When a group of people can sit in an (ever growing) circle (in person!) and chat about Gargoyles, it makes me feel a great sense of community which is only faintly felt via the internet community. Somehow Greg revealed to us that the Jogger is Billy and Susan's uncle. Not sure how we got that out of him, but I thought it was a neat tidbit.
After the Mug, I decided I needed/wanted a walk so I wandered down to Taco Bell for lunch and ended up counteracting the purpose for the walk there when I got a big ole quesadilla thing... ugh, I ate too much on this trip.
I waddled back to the hotel with enough time to get a great seat for the Radio Play. Wow, that was fun. To have brand new canon material revealed to us as a big group like that was just awesome. Something I haven't felt since I was watching the episodes as the came out 11 years ago with grade school friends and talking about them at school. So much fun. Thom Adcox was hilarious as Brentwood (great casting there, ha!), but I was also impressed by a lot of other people, namely Phoenix-Talon as Elisa. Honestly, I can't read the line "I'm a part of this clan. Nothing will ever change that." without hearing Phoenix-Talon. I should be hearing Salli Richardson, I know, but her Radio Play counterpart deserves a round of applause. Great job.
After the Radio Play I congratulated Greg on a great job and then excused myself to call my friend Ryan (another Gargoyles fan who couldn't attend due to med-school) and told him exactly nothing except that I heard the script for Issue #5. He was good about it, but I couldn't stop gushing about how great it was so I decided to spare him (and spot tempting myself) and just get back to the convention. [On a side note, I happened to witness the most interesting scenario involving a baby duck and a fisherman in the stream behind the hotel during this phone conversation. But that, as they say, is a story for another day...]
I went back and made my way to MGT3K, which was one of my favorite events at G'02. Had a lot of fun making fun of the episodes (and Greg's intros for the eps). I truly do feel, however, that the Goliath Chronicles was made for MGT3K, and hope to see TGC in that (and only that) venue at future Gatherings.
Next came the Blue Mug. Never attended that before and I was not disappointed. Goliath's genitalia, Thom Adcox removing his pants and humping a fan (separate incidents of course), and lots of pornographic Gargoyles art and video clips. And I hear this was a MILD year. Yikes. Lot of fun though. I didn't want to miss a minute of it so I remained even though I was very sleepy. Found myself attempting to flirt with Thom from across the room (can't help it, he's cute) but nothing came of that (truly for the best) and after the Mug broke up, I went back to my room to sleep. Instead, on a whim, I jumped in the pool and swam around until the thought of swimming in the dark had me totally freaked out ( I was actually getting "the shivers" imagining monsters below me in the darkness). Well aware of my exhaustion, I went to my room and slept.
Woke up early and got things packed up. I needed to be on the road asap, cuz I had to get back home for stuff on Monday.
Fortunately, I had time for a quick breakfast at that Rooster pace next door. Finally had some fruit for breakfast, although the restaurant insisted on immersing it in some sort of sugary fruit syrup. Went back to the con and listened to a couple of the open-story stuff. Some people had some pretty good stuff, and the stillness of the room and the singular voice was refreshing after the Blue Mug the night before.
Next attended a panel I'd been waiting for all weekend; Gargoyles Physiology and Culture. Though I certainly disagreed with a lot of the ideas floating around that panel (especially involving Gargate evolution), I had a great time. It was nice to actually be able to have that conversation outside of the Comment Room. And we all agreed, for various reasons, that gargoyle eggs do in fact need to be turned. I felt that this consensus, minor though it was, was a good place for us to move to the culture part of the panel. I was surprised that I ended up enjoying this part of the panel even more. Greg really inspires me when he talks about Gargoyle culture. It really was fascinating and wonderful stuff, and Greg explained his thoughts so well. It made me feel I got a glimpse, for a moment, into that universe Greg is always tapping into.
After the panel, most of us moved on to the "Bad Guys" panel. Turned out that Greg, naturally, wasn't ready to reveal much there and the panel turned into a Marketing seminar. Not much I can say about that that others have not already.
After the so called "Bad Guys" panel ended, I realized I needed to hit the road. I said my goodbyes to Greg and a few others and made my way back home. I arrived in my apartment in St. Louis very very late Sunday night (Monday morning?).
It was a great trip and I'm thrilled that the Gathering next year will be even closer! Hopefully, I'll be able to bring my friend Ryan and boyfriend Jason along next year, but I know I'll be there at least.
Now, I need to get this posted before the queue closes again.
Thanks Greg, Thom, Karine, the entire Gathering Staff and everyone who came! It was a lot of fun!
Thank you, Matt. I'll admit I did cheat and glanced at your nametag, but now I swear I know your face. (It usually takes me a couple of Gatherings to nail a name and face together on anyone.)
I really enjoyed the Phys/Culture panel also. I'm such a science moron, it felt like a great crypto-education. And, as I'm sure ALL of you know by now, I LOVE talking about this stuff.
If a gargoyle saw and herd the spell in City of Stone whould he stay stone at all times.
Yep. He might have a few seconds here and there, but yep.
If Latin and Hebrew are magical becose of thare age and that the spells where originaly righten in them, why dosn't the Emir in "Grief" read the Egyptian spells in Coptic (the Ancient Egyptian language).
Latin and Hebrew are no more magical than modern languages, but many spells were written originally in those languages. Obviously, for whatever reason, the Emir had his spell translated into English. You may ask, why the heck would he do that? And it's a DARN good question, you know? Darn good. Darn. Good. Darn.
Gargoyles #5: Bash
First off I have to say how spectacular the artwork is looking in this issue; usually I have no problem with the art and actually quite like Hedgcock's work - but Karine Chalebois' experience of the characters certainly shines in what has to be the best looking issue to date! It's not perfect, some of the characters look quite stiff at times (a minor, trivial annoyance in comparison), but there are some scenes which literally shine off the page. I love the view Brendan has of the gargoyles fighting, Thailog and Brentwood gliding off from the Eyrie look spectacular, and Delilah really looks gorgeous as she shines out as her own gargoyle. This issue has made me all the more excited for Bad Guys; with artwork like this hopefully the series will blossom.
But let's get back to the Bash - this issue brings an end to the first all new canon 'episode' and nicely wraps up the story in 3, 4 and 5 whilst setting up even more intriguing questions for future issues.
Side points that really shone out:
There's a couple of familiar faces waiting for us outside the lift; seeing Mary and Finella makes me all the more impatient for Timedancer.
Super-goyle: Brooklyn coming out of the elevator like that really made me chuckle - loved it!
The action scenes - this issue was jam packed with action, so much so that I forgot that Thailog's was waiting for Delilah.
Brentwood - Now that was a surprise! I really thought that he would be the one to rebel against his master, but more on that later.
Now onto the story:
One con about getting the comic a week after everyone else is that the internet is a minefield of spoilers. Despite my best efforts to avoid spoiling the story I somehow found out that Delilah didn't choose Thailog and that Thailog's real goal in attacking was to obtain DNA from the gargoyles.
This latter revelation disappointed me before I'd even got the comic- why? When I heard DNA I thought more clones all over again - which didn't make sense. Thailog already had minions which listen to his beck and call why make more? I didn't understand it. I still don't really.
But as I thought about it (after I actually read the story) I became intrigued. What does Thailog actually want with DNA of the clan? What more could Sevarius do with gargoyle DNA that he hasn't done already (aside from Voodoo magic)? And I'm sure Thailog being a member of the Illuminati (which was a shock of sheer genius) complicates the matter even further. I suppose I'll just have to wait for the rest of Clan Building (and hopefully the rest of season 3) for all of this to be answered. But I have to say I'm intrigued, even excited. And as for Shari, well, she's certainly full of surprises - a number 9! Greg you certainly know how to leave us begging for more! So Shari, the mysterious unnamed woman who's been hanging around in the Labyrinth, is now Thailog's new executive assistant and outranks him as a fellow Illuminatus. And what exactly do the Illuminati want with the gargoyles?
Speaking of the Illuminati, we're certainly learning a lot more about them; Duval is actually no. 2 alongside Quincy Hemings. Who is number 1 then? Hmmm…
So the greeting that started off as 36 : 32 and ended as 36 : 9 is actually a ranking system; with thirty-six 36s, thirty-five 35s, all the way up to two 2s and one 1 that leads up to 666 members!
The Illuminati are certainly turning into the big players of this season, with their fingers in almost all the pots; financing the Quarrymen, overviewing the taskforce, a high ranking member is now working for Thailog, and now they're sending Xanatos on secret missions. These guys are really coming out to the forefront dominating the entire scene from behind the curtains.
Enough of secret societies; lets talk clones again.
One interesting thing about Bash is that the clones, especially Delilah, really come out of their shells.
Delilah: One interesting point was Owen finding her standing around in Xanatos' lab. Wonder what she was doing in there.
I was actually surprised by her language skills; they seem to be a lot better than that of the other clones.
"Is that an order, Angela? Or am I truly free to make my own choices?"
I said that I unfortunately knew already from spoilers that Delilah didn't go with Thailog. So when I first read Delilah say "I believe this fighting may cease now" I thought that she was going to spurt something cheesy to Thailog about him attacking her "friends" so she isn't going to go with him. But to my surprise and delight she makes the above retort to Angela. And after that she starts digging into a wounded Goliath.
"You used me!"
Wow! Not only had she been secretly listening to Goliath and Elisa's heart to heart from the previous issue, but she now reproaches Goliath for bringing her to Xanatos' Masque Ball. Her general attitude towards the Manhattan clan seems to be one of a cold unconcerned frigidity; her short responses to Goliath's proposal in "Invitation Only" at first seems as if she is only acting under her 'Obey Thailog' instincts. And throughout "Masque" she seems quiet and unresponsive; she doesn't stand out. It's only in response to seeing her "brothers" in trouble that she comes out of herself. At first I thought her command to stop the fighting was addressed to Thailog, but I'm now starting to think as to whether she was also addressing the Manhattan gargoyles who she feels are attacking her brothers.
Now onto her brothers;
Malibu: Well he's certainly Brooklyn's clone; this green gargoyle's smitten with Delilah and I think the main reason he stopped fighting is because Delilah arrived and suggested leaving for the labyrinth.
Hollywood: Gar-girl (lol!) that's all I'm going to say!
Brentwood: This guy is turning into a real character! Interestingly he takes a passive role in the fighting and just sits on the sidelines watching. From his constant utterances of "free-will" on Maggie's prompting I was thinking that if anyone would leave Thailog to join the side of the Angels, it would be this guy. I'm going to be following his character development with great interest (hopefully it'll involve gaining better diction and vocabulary). "Thailog smart."
"Dude, you're really making me look bad!"
Lex's reaction though is priceless, but still quite shocking. I feel sorry for the clones at times; these poor souls compelled by their master to attack their "parents" who then later shun them making them live in the underground sewers. Lex doesn't seem concerned that his clone is aligning with the "bad guy" but rather that Brentwood's choice plays badly upon himself.
The Manhattan clan wanted nothing to do with their clones originally; but I feel this only helped to bring this band of misfits even closer. And maybe this abandonment helps explain Delilah's coldness to Goliath's clan. Last time they met she was beaten and chained by Angela; her brothers also beaten and then the five of them are taken in by Talon.
Delilah shines out as the more astute and most intellectually developed and as thus stands out as their natural leader. The other clones seem like children in comparison - "Labyrinth good", "Hollywood not fight" - and in turn Delilah seems to have picked up the 'big sister' role. I think this clan's development is going to be interesting.
Thailog and Sevarius interestingly rendezvous at Nightstone. One thing that struck me when Thailog attacked the Labyrinth to collect his "property" - this is the gargoyle that swindled Xanatos of $20 million and tried to kill Demona and Macbeth only to obtain their fortunes, why would his first course of action upon resurfacing be to collect his minions? He had invested millions into Nightstone and I thought his primary goal would have been to recover his company from Demona. Surprisingly (this issue is full of surprises) it seems Thailog doesn't think he needs to take back Nightstone hostilely; it's obviously more profitable to bankroll Sevarius behind Demona's back.
Dr Sato's reappearance was a welcome return. And it seems he's now been thrust into friendship with the gargoyles. Look forward to how this turns out.
Brendan seems to be close to the end with Margot; he's also got another up close view of the gargoyles.
This review's seems to have turned more into a ramble; all I can say is that this issue was spectacular. I thoroughly enjoyed it. 5/5 well done!
Glad you like it. I wouldn't count Margot out as far as Brendan's concerned though...
Hi Greg. With the success of the Transformers movie and the CGI that went with it, if you got an offer to do a Gargoyles movie with the gargoyles being CGI, would you do it? If you did, I would assume that you would want to use the original voice actors for the gargoyles, but what about the humans in the series? Would you use the original actors or bring in new people? Who would you have play the various roles like Elisa, Xanatos, Fox, and Owen?
Of course, I'd be interested. If for no other reason then it would guarantee the release of the rest of the episodes.
As to casting, I'd love to cast Salli, Jonathan and Jeff as their respective characters. As much as I love Laura, though, I'm afraid she doesn't really look anything like Fox. Don't have anyone in mind... because Laura's so vocally wonderful in the part. But the truth is, casting of the humans would depend quite a bit on financing issues. So this hypothetical is really just that.
Oh dear freaking god!!
In all the joyful bouncing I was doing, I totally forgot something.
The KISS! (Once again, this is where the giant pink sparkly heart would go).
Greg, the next time I make it to The Gathering (ha!) I totally owe you a major hug (how about a bum pinch, that ok too?) :D
Let's start with the hug and see where things go... ;)
I can't remember if I sumbitted a review for the last 4 issues, so I made sure to write one up today :D
I wish we could use HTML on this page, as I would write the word LOVE in giant pink letter, maybe with a sparkle effect. Because I truly do love it.
It's so exciting to get new stories, and this one, oh it just keeps getting better and better. Some questions are answered, a heap more asked and the tension kinda went through the roof :)
Brooklyn's costume reveal gave me the giggles, and I can't help but have a little soft spot for Brendan. I'd like to think he was the one who told Dr Sato that there was someone injured out in the courtyard.
Karine and Steph make an excellent art team, I can't wait to see how Karine goes with Bad Guys.
Greg, thank you once again for giving us Gargoyles.
Thank you, Julie, for being there to receive it!
Did Fox know about Owen/Puck before The Gathering. Though she is suprised by the revelation of her mother's identity? She just doesn't appear startled by the existence of purly magical beings (though, she was preoccupied by worry for her child).
I'm not sure she did.
Wow! What an awesome new gargoyles comic! Number 4 & 5 were brilantly written. I also would like to say that Guler is the man, and Lostimolo is coloriffic. When I saw the cover of #5 I was thrilled as well as horriffied (poor goliath). I had to read it twice to get all the refferences stright.
The Illuminati's numbering system seems to indicate that for every number, there is that amount of people involved, is this the same all the way from 1 to 36?
I also feel bad for Lex since he was dressed just like his "future tense" self as a costume, and his clone brentwood chose to stay with Thalog. Could this be an Omen?
O.o Actullay Brooklyn wasn't having a good night either, witnessing all the couples holding each other at the end. I'm beggining to think that "Time Dancer" may play a role in his future (since everyone seems to be taken)Care to elaborate?
*>.<* still can't believe that Brooklyn's clone is going to make it with someone before he does, any chance that Delilah's affinity for Malabu is really because of her feelings for Brook?
I can't wait for the next Issue!
As alway's you ROCK Greg!
Delilah probably isn't quite as shallow as Brooklyn, I'm guessing.
And yes, just as it's described in the issue, you've got the Illuminati number system right.
I really, really hope the other colourists on the comic take note of Stephanie's colours here. One of the big issues in "Awakening" was the colour and beauty of the city and this is the first time that I've felt the comic has really conveyed that to full effect. The colours on the comic have been good so far, and obviously the darker shades are more intuitive for a comic of this nature, but this issue really captures the feel of the series.
Obviously a big part of that is the tag-team with Kanthara's line-art. And I think you really see the benefit of having people on the art who have a long experience with the series, from little things -- check out the moon, just like the series! -- to the real meat of the story: the characters. Odd things like Brooklyn's superhero pose, the Lex/Brentwood panel really nail the essence of the characters, their movements, the way they carry themselves. All the star characters look amazing, the battle sequences, the cityscapes... a real joy. Smashing work by Kanthara and Stephanie.
Greg B mentioned that the 'Gargoyles' and spin-off art teams would be better off switched around and I do tend to agree. Kanthara rocks the core characters but is on the spin-off book charting new territory in the universe. David Hedgecock is the fresh eye but he's in the shadow of the original series which entrenched a very specific vision of these main guys in our mind. It seems counterintuitive. But I rate both artists and I'm really excited by the prospect of seeing their work on alternate months.
Script-wise, I enjoy the focus on a major narrative strand at last. I found #4 highly entertaining but with so many different things happening, no single plot seemed to have something big happening. This issue has much more momentum and while I love the expansive universe, I hope most stories won't have quite so many separate subplots.
- The clones seem to have characteristics of their 'parents' and it's fun to see how a few lines kind of sets them apart from each other. Brentwood has Lexington's appreciation for intelligence and perhaps some of his capacity for hero worship. Hollywood seemed to enjoy 'playing monster' ("ROOOARR") rather than being genuinely villainous; he's also the only clone who specifically says he wants to not fight. Malibu has Brooklyn's weakness for women, and seems to follow Delilah as keenly as Brooklyn briefly followed Demona. Actually the Clone-Trio's stories here remind me a lot of moments from 'Deadly Force'. Lex falls in with the Pack; Brentwood falls in with Thailog. Brooklyn is starstruck by Demona; Malibu by Delilah. Broadway plays with a gun; Hollywood plays monster. Hard to tell much about Burbank except that he seems to have Hudson's love of the home -- he latches onto the idea of the Labyrinth specifically.
- "I wouldn't want to inhibit you, dear boy" -- great line.
- Thailog in the Illuminati will be very interesting. I wonder how fast our four 36es will climb the pyramid... especially Thailog and Xanatos.
- Thailog doesn't want Goliath dead. Which isn't a big surprise thinking about it (even in "Double Jeopardy", the planned murder wasn't the main aim, and he's already seen the benefit in Sevarius), but shows his Xanatosian strategist side is alive and well.
- Picking up some earlier Ask Greg comments by Alex Garg and Greg B, the slight hypocrisy in the clan's treatment of the clones fascinates me. They boss them around, call them "stupid clone!" and "forgery" and "bastard" (admittedly two of these to Thailog where their disgust is quite justified). But the gargoyles are seen to have 'attacked' the city and the people of NY are lashing out at them, calling them monsters, inhuman, without emotions. But outside Goliath croaking Delilah's name, none of the clones are addressed by name, or even shown any warmth or respect. Lex can't even look Brentwood in the eye at the end, he's more worried about his own standing with the clan. They seek tolerance, but don't offer it to the clones in a meaningful way.
- I like the Xanatosian plan-within-a-plan ending but it does mean that, at the end, this story turns out to be a bit of a cue-chalker for Thailog and Xanatos. Where's this going? Suspense!
- In #3, Hacker said that Duval went to a lot of trouble to arrange the meeting at the White House -- but now we find that it's Duval's equal he's talking to. I can see inviting a couple of ex-cons to a White House party might be politically risky, but I wonder if it was more of a comment on the relationship between the two Twos.
A couple of questions:
1. If #3-5 was an episode, which title would it have gone by? It would be nice to have a single name to refer to it (like #1-2's overall title is still "The Journey" to me) as rather than just issue numbers or a bunch of titles. I think "Masque" seems to be the most all-encompassing title, and we start #3 with a mask on the table and end with an unmasking.
2. I'm not really clear what the function of the Clan-Building title is. Can we expect the last story in the arc to provide some form of (what I imagine would be very open-ended) closure for the story elements currently prominent in the comic, or is it just like a banner title for ease of reference (and for selling trades?), e.g. The World Tour.
Anyway, I'm having a blast. Everyone involved with the comic is doing great work.
1. I've answered this, but I also disagree with the premise. #1&2's "overall title" is only "The Journey" because you know what it was adapted from. But that's old news. The title of issue 1 is "Nightwatch". The title of issue #2 is "The Journey". The title of issue #3 is "Invitation Only". And etc. We're in a different medium. It's pointless to attempt to import tv traditions into it.
2. One would hope that it's more than just a banner. You can decide for yourself in a year.
Would Demona keep on trying to kill Goliath and the others, if doing so would ruin her relationship with Angela?
Would she be willing to sacrifice her relationship with Angela if it meant accomplishing her goals?
Demona has a knack for making her own life miserable. Not to mention the lives of those she most cares about. Beyond that, I'll leave these questions to your own imagination.
What would Demona think of Alan Weisman's novel "The World Without Us"?
I have no idea. Haven't read it myself. Never heard of it actually.
Hey Greg! Thought it was high time to enter my review for #5 Bash!!
First off, it's a shame I coudn't make it to this year's Gathering. However, now knowing that there's bound to be some surprises like Issuess 3,4,&5 for the Radio Play have finally given me the motivation to try Chicago (It's closer, so there's hope!)
Second, on my way to get this comic, I just BARELY got the last one. I followed your advice thi time, Greg and I told the clerk that if they keep running short (it was barely noon!) that they should start ordering more. He assured me that they would do so this September!
Anways, here's my thoughts for Bash:
Beautiful shot of the Eyrie Building. Nice to see the Third Quarter Moon too . . . reminder that it's only been about two weeks since Hunter's Moon.
Mary & Finella . . . Greg, you smug mastermind! You just love throwing little surprises like that, huh? :P
Nice to see Dr. Sato again, though I honestly forgot what he looked like since I haven't seen Deadly Force in about six months.
Brooklyn's costume was wonderful, and it was my brother who noticed that his red wings acted like his cape!
I always did love that line of Robbins' in Dying of the Light about Conrete & Leather, so I was glad to see that survive into Canon.
Quincy & Xanatos were quite fun to watch, especially Quincey's line of "Now don't get smart, boy!" Knowing his estamated age, Hemings has every right to call him that!
I noticed how Thailog kept retracting his blades and using new clean ones, and I first wondered, Does he have a Danny Tanner/Jerry Seinfeld complex of having to always be neat and clean? Then it all made sense: He was taking DNA samples. While I enjoyed this revelation, I was kinda surprised that Thailog would use an old tactic again, clearly when the last time resulted in losing the Clones.
However, I then remembered Xanatos telling Goliath that old habits die hard as well as the thought that maybe Thailog is merely using an old tactic for a new means . . . and as some have said below, he and Sevarius are probably planning an army.
The shot of Thailog & Brentwood leaving the Eyrie was spectacular, IMO.
Brooklyn has one of the best lines in this issue, "You gotta be kidding me!", while looking at Delilah & Malibu. Good lord, his luck is terrible . . . for now at least.
Finally, the new girl . . . well, we don't have to call her new girl anymore, now do we? Shari . . . and she's a rank of nine. And Thailog's a Thirty-six!! Wow . . . wonder what they did to earn those spots??
Speaking on the Illuminati Ranks:
It appears that only WE are surprised by Duval's Number with the fact that even Xanatos knows he's Number #2.
666 Members (or possible members) of the most influential people on earth . . . wow.
Who IS One? I guess we'll find out soon enough . . .
Anyways, #6 can't come soon enough! Thanks again for such a great return into the Gargoyles Universe!
You're welcome. Thanks for being there to read it!
Hey! I'm a big fan of SRMTHFG. Too bad the show's over... for now... I also loved the episodes you worked on. So, what do you think is gonna happen? Who's gonna win the battle? What do you think the battle's gonna be like? Did you enjoy your part as Chiro?
I'm afraid I have no inside info on the Monkey Team. I did have fun writing those two scripts, though the end result was somewhat different than what I wrote.
are gargoyles apart of the reptilian species or something else?
Just came around a character called Reynard T. Fox who also happens to be fox. The character is from a comicbook named Fables i was just wondering if your Fox inspired this character or was Fox inspired by this character or was Fox inspired by something completely different? Is there a significance to the Renard name?
Renard meens Fox in French.
hi greg iam wondering why dose't slg have gargoyles#5 yet what is going on
They do. Check again, please.
Is there any special requirement for the learning of magic (besides the obvious time, preparation and practice)? That is, is everyone capable of performing sorcery if they learn how?
Some would have a greater aptitude than others, I would think, but sure.
Is there any specific, ritualized behavior associated with Gargoyle mating habits (as in, different from humans)?
I'm not trying to ask any, um... dirty questions here, but are Gargoyles anatomically equipt the same (or analogous) as humans?
Speaking of which, Gargates are mammals arn't they? What else would breasts be for, if not for suckling young?
Gargates are gargates, which doesn't mean they don't have things in common with mammals, including breasts which are indeed for nursing and genitals. I think at the Gathering we called this convergent evolution or somesuch.
how will brooklyn and fu-dog get allong when the meet how will fu-dog responed to brooklyn what will be brooklyns reaction to fu-dog
You'll have to wait and see, I'm afraid.
ISSUE 5 - BASH
So, we see more of Sir Ian of Oxford, and also…is that Tom's mother and wossername - the lass who was smitten with Constantine? Bah! You're not going to tell if it is, and I can't be the first one to notice that.
So, Morgan doesn't feel too bad about being rejected - glad he was prepared for it.
Hmmm…so, according to this Number 2, there would be…uh-huh…666 members of the Illuminati. Was this intentional?
So, Brooklyn was going to be Supergoyle, not the Scarecrow. Interesting twist.
And you can tell, when Elisa sees one of Bruno's boys, that she knows something wrong.
Thailog's reaction to Angela's exclamation is akin to my own - I'm surprised that Disney let that through.
Yay for the Old Fart. And this scene is a little reminiscent of Hudson's "outing" in TGC: Dying of the Light. From what I understood, that scene was not one of the bits they took from you. Any reason you decided to include this?
It's a bird! It's a plane! It's…SUPERGOYLE!!
"I'm part of this clan…nothing will ever change that!" How sentimental of Elisa.
"So for decades, the leader of the Free World has been…" "shootin' the breeze in my kitchen every night."
This doesn't come as a surprise. It's been said that even the President works for them.
Uh-oh…Brendan's seen the Gargoyles…this looks to be some serious trouble.
So Thailog calls Delilah "Angel"? Interesting… I don't recall him using that pet name for her, or Demona.
"'Delilah can mean nothing to me.' You used me."
Interesting…I hope that Goliath can clear things up with her. I don't want to see bad blood between the two clans.
Mmmm…Goliath agrees with what I said last review. This pleases me.
So…Dr. Sato now gets pulled into "the know." Let's hope he can be trusted.
And you already know my feelings about the resolution of the Goliath-Elisa relationship.
So, Thailog is still working with Sevarius. No big surprise there…as opposed to the sudden revelation about Shari, Illuminatus Rank 9.
So, let's see…so far, we know of…
ILLUMINATI RANK 36
ILLUMINATUS RANK 32
ILLUMINATUS RANK 9
ILLUMINATI RANK 2
The mysterious Mr. Duval.
I have no doubt that we'll be seeing more soon.
Sleep well, Greg. Pleasant dreams.
The Dying of the Light scene was NOT one of mine -- though the long term plan for Jeff to learn Hudson's identity and be okay with it was. But it seemed to me that that one line of dialogue was a fan-favorite... and since there were few of those in the Goliath Chronicles, I thought a nod to one of the times they got things right was a nice tribute to all the hard work that the TGC crew put in, with little thanks or reward.
Written before release of Issue 5
ISSUE 4 - MASQUE
Once again, Greg, you have completely failed to disappoint.
Last issue, when Hudson said that he had a "previous engagement," I had a feeling that he was going to be spending Hallowe'en with Jeffrey. (Hey, it was either that or spend the party night watching Celebrity Hockey, eh?)
I'm assuming that Margot had intended for herself and Brendan to have a "couple's costume". If Brendan was supposed to be Valentino, who was Margot dressed as?
And the Clan is continuing the costume themes: the Trio (now plus Angela) with their "costume over a costume" as someone put it in "Eye" (was it Vinnie?), and Elisa with her Disney Princess motif. I think she makes a good Jas.
I like Angela's reaction to Elisa with a date. She's a "daddy's girl" through and through.
Nice little continuation from the previous issue with Thailog. A follow-up on his "Trick or treat?" line at the start of the "commercial break." Also, his preparation for the assault is another prime example of his Xanatos-like mindset - prepare for anything. And of course, with Thailog alive, it only makes sense that he'd try to reclaim the Clones.
How did Judge Roebling mistake Delilah for Demona? The coloring's all wrong, and when last he saw, she and Goliath were clearly not on pleasant terms.
Poor "G"…heart breaking… and poor Brooklyn, still ever-so-smitten.
You've commented that Alex X. looks old for his age. Am I correct in guessing that this has to do with his heritage - specifically his maternal grandmother?
I notice that, in contrast with his meeting with Agent Hacker, David looks not at all pleased to speak with mister "Two."
So, the Clones are not quite free of Thailog's programming. Makes sense, as it's been three months at the most since they were "liberated" from him.
I hope we finally get to find out what our mysterious goth girl's name is next ish (she looks like an Alex to me, but with Baby X, that might get confusing).
I kind of feel sorry for Morgan. Elisa built up his hopes on this date, and now it looks like he's being let down again.
Yay for more troubles in the G&E romance dept. I feel bad for them, but it makes for good story writing. Speaking of good writing, I hope that things don't end up all better at the end of the "episode," that would seem a little too sitcom-like to me.
"…your penchant for drama always exceeds expectations, Father." Thailog always seems to know how to push Goliath's buttons, doesn't he?
And let's hear a "Good boy, Owen!" He wouldn't be the major-domo he is, if he didn't try to keep the party going well.
And Owen raises a good point: if Delilah is to have free will, she needs the opportunity to make the decision for herself - even if the decision she makes is the "wrong" one.
OOOHH! Cliffhanger! Great place for the commercial break. Can't wait to see what happens in the final act. Will Goliath survive?!
Well, of course he will, as our leading man. But still…
And I leave you with this thought: You said that, in the comics, three issues is the equivalent of one TV episode. If you were to clump issues 3-5 together into an episode, what title would you use?
Either "Masque" or "Bash", but I'm trying not to slip into t.v. habits. We're in a new medium now.
Margot was a flapper of your choice.
Roebling doesn't really think in terms of their being a lot of gargoyles. He saw a female, he thought of the female he knew of. They all look alike to him. Particularly when he's a touch sloshed.
I know you must get hundreds of these questions every month, but I'd heard Gargoyles #5 was out July 18th and So far neither Slavelabor, nor Amazon, nor my local comic store have any information on it. Why so many set backs to getting them published on time (or at all in most cases)? And aside from asking you every month when they'll be out, is there some place that updates regularly on the status? I know you must be frustrated as much as we are about trying to find the comics in stores and on time..
Gargoyles #5 is out and went on sale at comic book stores this past July. I have NO clue why your store has no info. But that really is an issue with YOUR store. Diamond had it available for distribution. As for SLG, you have to understand that it is a VERY small company, and with the San Diego ComicCon taking up much time and energy, the folks there were a bit slow to get it up on their site, but it IS there now. Amazon... well, you got me. I would hope it's up there now.
This is the first time I'm asking a question here, so I'd like to start by saying thank you for keeping such a close relationship to the fans of your work. That's a rare thing nowadays.
I also want to thank you for creating the greatest animated series ever. I absolutely loved the Gargoyles TV show during the time it aired here in Germany and still do. Sadly, there were no re-runs to date. But I managed to get the episodes via some dark pipes of the internet and while doing so, I noticed that, although the german show had very good speakers, the original english version sounds even better. I'd really like to get those DVDs to enjoy the episodes a) in full quality, b) with subtitles for those parts that are a bit hard to understand, and last but not least c) legally, wich would calm my consience. Sadly, there's no way to obtain the show on DVD here. Disney's european partner, Buena Vista International, hasn't released the DVDs here and the american ones have a region code that prevents us europeans from watching them. I don't know why they didn't release them here, apparently the show was very successful in europe. Here in germany, it looked like it didn't recieve quite the attention it could have, because it aired on a channel that had a much younger audience than the one the show was aimed at, but everyone who knew about the show really liked it a lot and I for one knew a lot of people who knew it. And from what I heard, it was an even bigger big hit in france. But still these facts don't seem to be sufficient enough to convince BVI to consider a european DVD release.
So, summarized, it might be bad that there are only 1 and a half seasons out there with the other half of season 2 missing, but for everyone outside of the US it's even worse, for we have nothing at all!
But now there is the comic. Fortunately, paper has no region codes yet. ;-)
Finally I'm able to enjoy my favourite animated series of all time again, I asked my local comic book store if they could import the comic and they confirmed it. I have to catch up a bit now, because when I heard about the existence of the new comic via pure coincidence, the first three episodes were already out. That discovery re-lighted the torch I once carried for the Gargoyles show and I looked around a bit and found out about stuff like the GotG-Con and websites like the Gargoyles-Wiki and this one. It's unbelievably great to see that there are so many others who also love this show as much as I do.
Ok, enough babbling, let's get to my question:
How will the narrative of the Gargoyles comic book series look like in the future? Will we get more or less closed chapters, spread across a few issues but with a defined ending for each story arc? Or will it turn out to be like so many other comic series that seem to have no real endings, because almost every issue ends with another cliffhanger?
I really hope not... Cliffhangers are useful for keeping the reader's anticipation up, but if even the final episode of a story arc hasn't a real ending but introduces the next arc instead, just to be able to place yet another cliffhanger, it becomes very annoying. Especially with 2 or more months waiting time between two issues. I really hope Bad Guys will be a success, so all of the other mini-series can be produced and sold in between the regular series' releases as well. New stories from the Gargoyles universe every month sounds almost too good to be true... Keep up the great work!
Greetings from Germany,
I'm big on open-ended closure. We will have some cliffhangers, of course, but if you've managed to catch up on the issues you've missed, you'll see that both issues 2 and 5 ended small story arcs. The same will be true for issues 6, 9 and especially 12, which will conclude the Clan-Building arc.
Having said that, nothing in Gargoyles truly "ends". So even issue 12 will still leave some aspects unresolved, and in fact will intentionally raise more and new questions.
Gargoyles #7; "The Rock", is it about Pendragon, or Demona, or Hakon?
I'm not revealing any more at this time beyond what is stated in the solicitation blurb, which can be found here: http://gargoyles.dracandros.com/The_Rock
I know all about the drama that involves Season 2 Vol. 2 and getting Disney/BVHE to release them, so I'll spare you that much. However, I would like to know the following: Is there an alternative to purchasing said second half of the season, or has one even exisited in the past? You know, like that big black thing with the magnetic tape called VHS that is going out of style now?
Could you list the following characters in order of natural intelligence?
Sevarius, Xanatos, Fox, Goliath, Angela, Broadway, Hudson, Elisa, Brooklyn, Lexington, Delilah, Demona, Desdemona, Coldstone, Coldsteel, Gabriel, Ophelia, Princess Katherine, Magus, Tom, Titania, Oberon, Halcyon, Puck, Fang, Talon, Claw, Maggie, Finella, Mary.
P.S I know its an odd question but i'm just curious about a lot of hypothetical questions and i think this could clear things up for me. Just some examples of the questions i think could be cleared up by this question.
1)Could Goliath have the same potential for magic as Demona? 2)Could Demona have the same potential for science as Sevarius etc.
I'd assume Hudson and Broadway or Fox and Xanatos would have roughly the same natural intelligence level in cases like that could you list character of the same intelligence in a row.
I didn't include the clones with exception of Delilah because they'd all have the same level of natural intelligence as their counterparts wouldn't they?
Where was Fox during City of stone part 2 til 4?
did she remain in the helicopter whole night during part 2?
did she know what exactly happened during the entire episodes?
She was stone in the helicopter for the night. Then at daybreak, she awoke, and -- I'm sure -- returned to the castle. The situation was probably explained to her, and I would think David would do his best to make sure that by nightfall she was in a secure location.
What is the bionicle story about anway? I've seen the movei's that I have but I still don't understand what it's about. And why Arn't into bionicle any more?
It's been so long...
To answer your second question first, I was -- basically -- fired by Lego (for yawning). It left a bad taste in my mouth, so I don't follow the property anymore.
As to what it's about, it's about a race of robots. Beyond that basic bit of info, I can only recommend reading the comics, checking out the website or the movies.
How did Xanatos tell Fox about what happened to her in the episode eye of the beholder? and what was Fox's reaction?
I'll leave that to your imagination.
i thought angela had a thing for brooklyn why does she end up with broadway
<<<We were never hinting toward Brooklyn/Angela. Quite the reverse. Gary Sperling and I made this decision together when he was working on Turf. But it just felt right. Broadway seemed the guy who was most attentive to Angela as an individual. The person most in touch with his so-called feminine side. Brooklyn was just after any chick with wings, frankly. And I think Lex pursued her because his brothers were and it seemed like the right thing to do. Only Broadway was interested in who Angela was. In my mind, he's clearly the most mature when it comes to this stuff. Brooklyn's a leader. And I love the guy, but he confuses a crush with deep abiding love. He needs a little more emotional maturity before he's ready for this "Gargoyles mate for life" thing.>>>
Or if you prefer:
<<<Angela and Brooklyn were NEVER an "item". NEVER. Brooklyn certainly had a crush on her. But so did Lex and Broadway. And Broadway's feelings for her were deeper almost from the night they met. And if you caught the look they exchanged at the end of "Possessions" you would have seen that the only "item" in works was Angela & Broadway.>>>
Would you say that it was Demona's fault for creating the Hunter, since it was she who mutilated the young boy's face? I've heard that the boy had an inner darkness inside him, but didn't Demona bring it to the surface by attacking him that day?
Blame to go around.
greg do u think if there was a medical procedur to change a human in to a gargoyle,(full blown everthing glowing,eyes'stone skin,ect)
peopel would it do you think most of all the fans would do it. how would you feel about fans turning them selfs in to real gargoyles
would have it done
thanks for your time
Seriously? Tattoos make me squeemish.
How come Hudson doesn't take on a more fatherly role with the Trio? He seemed to with Goliath and to a lesser extent Demona.
I'd argue he does, keeping in mind that he views the three of them as young adults, not children.
how will brooklyn and katana get along when they first meet what will katana be like how will brooklyn feel about her and how will katana feel about brooklyn
Patience is necessary for all concerned.
My Review for #5
The art is beautiful...Karine and Stephanie did a wonderful job. All the characters on model, colors are great. Finally the male gargoyles don't have 200 pound boulder muscles.
-I love that first panel of the eyrie building! That must have been fun to construct...
-Mary and Finella-hm, don't know what to think about them. Why didn't they meet the gargoyles? I guess they're in costumes of...themselves from 1000 years ago? Cuz I really hope Mary hasn't been wearing that rag on her head for 20 years.
-Dr. Sato is on the scene...we know where this is going. Good thing he's there--coincidence?
-I love those altered glass slipper foot coverings on Angela. I don't think we've ever seen gargoyle foot wear. I also like Broadway's full lion body suit, even though he didn't have it on last issue. It's so cute, especially when we see a shot of his back with the tail hehe.
- Oh man, is Thailog mean or what? He slams Goliath headfirst into a wall AFTER he stabs him. Talk about low.
-So Duval's not number one. Hm interesting. There's been some pretty cool theories going around S8. I don't really know enough about Arthurian legend to speculate though.
-hilarious moment when Brooklyn makes his grand entrance as "Super-Goyle." I like how he shows up right after Margot is berating Brendan for his "stupid get-up". It's funny, when people in here were discussing what they thought Brooklyn would show up as and it wasn't the Scarecrow, I predicted he would be a superhero of some sort, but I didn't post my thoughts about it, ah well. I'm phsychic! Not really, cause I was totally wrong about Brentwood, which I'll get to later.
-Angela: "YOU BASTARD!" Mwahahah. Note to self...Angela is not a sweet little angel, don't get on her bad side-well, unless of course you're Thailog, who was able to slash the whole Manhattan clan singlehandedly. I have no doubt he could have killed them all if he had aimed for their necks.
-I figured Robbins knew Hudson was a gargoyle. Though I'm not sure how he equates the smell of "old leather and concrete" to gargoyles if he only heard about them on the news. And does stone skin actually smell like stone? Does Robbins know the gargoyles turn to stone?
Anyway, some nice elements from the TGC ep, "The Dying of the light" which was one of the better ones of that series. I always kind of liked in that episode how Robbins was annoyed at Hudson for assuming he would want nothing to do with Hudson once he found out he was a gargoyle. Robbins seems to be taking it all in stride here though.
-The fight scenes look great. Very dynamic, and I can tell what's going on, which I had trouble with in earlier issues. I especially love that bird's eye shot of the whole clan and the clones.
-Elisa: "I'm a part of this clan." I think here she realizes that she can never have a normal life as she expected to. How many humans are members of gargoyle clans? I'm willing to bet she's the only one.
Thailog comes on to Elisa as he slashes her. He seems to have a creepy attraction to her...eww.
-Xanatos gets his first assignment from the illuminati. I'm betting it has something to do with the gargoyles. This could cause a lot of problems. I love Xanatos'smirk at Quincy when he's a smart aleck with him.
-Owen finds Delilah...in Xanatos' lab...Okay. Delilah struts into the fight and effectively stops it. I had thought she would be this meek defenseless creature, boy was I wrong. She rocks! She really sticks out as one of the most attractive female gargoyles of the series, if not the most attractive. Goliath must have it really bad for Elisa since he hardly looked Delilah's way. She sticks it to Goliath--who deserves it since he was kind of a jerk to her--but she should wait until he's not spilling his guts on the floor.
-Thailog takes Delilah's refusal in stride. I wasn't expecting that. Obviously she isn't the real reason he came to the castle. He's such a nonchalant jerk-I love him!
-Brentwood stays with Thailog. I had thought he would be the one to go back to the labyrinth. Very tricky! I love Lex's reaction to it-seeing his clone's desicion as a bad reflection on him.
-That's such a beautiful image of Thailog and Brentwood leaving the castle-it just sticks out.
-I've heard that Brendan is the one who alerted DR. Sato. So he does have compassion after all. I hope he leaves that witch of a wife.
So DR. Sato saved Elisa's life and now he's saving Goliath's. Nice, they owe that man a lot.
-and then comes my favorite panels of the book, probably of the whole comic series. Goliath and Elisa exchange "I love you"'s and they kiss! SQUEEEEEEE!!! I've been waiting for this for so long, and seeing it in the morning before work literally made my day. I honestly didn't expect them to say IT so soon, so I was pleasantly surprised. And Goliath's smiling even though he's probably in a heapload of pain--Awwww.
(Though I am somewhat surprised that Goliath is still conscious at this point. Though it's harder to tell passage of time in the comic than in the series, so maybe the fight wasn't as long as it seemed.)
-Brooklyn: "Oh, you gotta be kiddin' me..." hehehe. Even his clone gets more tail than him.
-It took my third reading before I realized Thailog was in Nightstone Unlimited. Hmm, interesting. It seems Sevarius still works there. And we find out Thailog's primary objective for picking up the clones and Delilah was really to get DNA from the clan, one of them being Elisa's, hmm. Thailog+Sevarious+Gargoyle DNA= Very Scary!
-And then we have the shocking ending-Thailog is in the Illuminati, and he's working with Shari the "Labyrinth Girl" who's really high up there on the food chain. Hard times are coming for the clan...I wonder if the Illuminati are in on Thailog's clone plans.
Anyway this has been the most awesome issue so far and I can't wait to read where this is heading. Great job everyone!
Would Demona kill Angela if it meant the achievement of her goal, or would that be too much even for her?
What do you think?
Will we see the romance between Delilah and Malibu develop in the comics?
If it does, you will.
Are sales picking up for Gargoyles Season 2, Volume 1 on DVD yet for Disney to release Season 2, Volume 2 of Gargoyles on DVD that I want to get to complete the entire series of Gargoyles on DVD? Thank you and have a nice day.
Jonny, Jonny, Jonny, Jonny, whoops, Jonny, whoops, Jonny, Jonny, Jonny, Jonny...
Yes, in the three weeks since you LAST asked this question the ENTIRE SITUATION has changed! YAY!!! All is solved! All is grand!! No need to spread the word!! Just camp out in your local dvd store! They'll be there tomorrow morning! In fact, they're free! In fact, they'll be delivered straight to your house without even having to order them in advance! In fact, God has decided they will fall from the sky like manna from heaven! At least that's what the Archangel Gabriel just told me over cards last night.
1. Since Mr. Duval isn't the head of the Illuminati as previously thought then who is the true number one? Is he a previously established character?
2. Given that the Illuminati has a membership of 666, I guess they aren't ubiquitous as previously thought, so how much control do they really have over world affairs?
3. When was Thailog recruited by them?
1. I'll tell you right here and right now in this forum. Where else would I reveal it after all? The answer is, that is the identity of #1 is >urk< >ugh< did you have to use the slow-acting poisonous blow-darts, you bastard?! You know how painful they are!!!
2. How much do you want them to have?
3. Prior to issue #5.
This is more a ramble reply to Alex Garg's post, but I definitely think this is a fascinating subject, and could make a great Ask Greg discussion.
Honestly, at this point, I don't think anyone in the Manhattan Clan cares much about any of the clones. Any of them. What was the first thing said when Thailog appeared to perish and the clones had no where to go? "We can't just bring them back to the Clock Tower can we? I mean, they kind of give me the creeps."
Right there, the Manhattan Clan wanted nothing to do with them. Wanted to pretend they didn't exist. Let Talon take them to live in a sewer. Out of sight, out of mind. Not that the reaction is not understandable, it is. I think we'd all be uncomfortable around clones of ourselves made against our will and knowledge. It's a fundamental violation of our individuality.
Did any of the Manhattan Clan go down to see them between "The Reckoning" and "Invitation Only"? I'd be very surprised if the answer is yes. The one time they do go down, they want something. Goliath is following Elisa's request to attempt to date Delilah. Brooklyn... just wants to make a play for the only available female he's aware of. They were down there both for selfish reasons.
So, yeah, all of their talk about free will probably was less for the clones' sake, and more towards the Manhattan Clan's hatred for Thailog. They hate Thailog, so naturally they don't want the clones to be helping him. At this point, do they have any other reason to care?
Lexington's only real concern when Brentwood chooses Thailog is how it makes him [Lexington] look. Not concern for Brentwood's safety, or eventually having to face him as an enemy. Lex thinks it makes *him* look bad.
I know this is a pretty serious indictment of the Manhattan Clan. I love them, they are heroes, there's a lot to admire in each and every one of them. But, they're not saints. Which is fine, they're more interesting this way... if I wanted a group of pure goodie goods, I'd read a Silver Age Justice League of America comic book.
I don't disagree with any of the above, but I would temper it.
Again, I think Angela has an INTEREST in individuality and wouldn't want Delilah blindly following ANYONE. Delilah may have reacted to Angela as if Angela was giving her another order, but I don't think it's hard to see that that was clearly NOT Angela's intent. And if your looking for proof, just check out Angela's relationship with Goliath. She respects him as a leader. As a hero. A legend. She loves him as a father. But check out the World Tour, particularly Sanctuary. She's hardly following G. blindly.
And Goliath... in his slow, deliberate, bleeding-to-death way... had clearly given all this some thought too. He told Thailog that Delilah would not CHOOSE him (i.e. Thailog). He may seem confident of this (perhaps even over-confident), but there's nothing to indicate that Goliath plans to decide FOR her. And he doesn't decide for Brentwood either. There's preference and action. Two different things.
This is something that had I wanted to bring up in the Culture/Biology panel at the Gathering, but we ran out of time. Besides, it feels a little better to be able to ask this question now that "Bash" has broad exposure (although it's still new enough to constitute a SPOILER warning).
Gargoyles and Free Will.
A theme of Gargoyles since the introduction of the clones has been just how much control they have over making their own decisions, particularly given that they were programmed to obey Thailog. This comes to a head in "Masque" and "Bash," where the clones are bombarded with the "Free Will" message to the point where they can finally make their choices, but what's most curious to me is the pressure that they receive from the Manhattan Clan.
It doesn't surprise me that Maggie would bring it up in "Masque" - she was born and raised in a democratic society, so the idea that people have free will and the right to self-determination is ingrained in her psyche - but for Goliath and Lexington, and Angela to a lesser extent, to make the case for it in "Bash" was more surprising.
Goliath and Lexington both come from an era where there was no broadly applied concept of a person's right to self-determination. On the human side was the reign of the Catholic Church (and I'm writing very generally now) which in terms of ethics framed the argument for free will in such a way that while humans have the *capacity* to choose between different courses of action, our *obligation* is to obey God's commands; the fact that they did not was why we were expelled from the Garden of Eden. Therefore, under those circumstances, we don't really have a choice - God's infinite wisdom overrides our mortal judgments. That dogma then went on to inform the monarchies of the day, Scotland not excepting, where kings ruled by Divine Mandate. The idea that a king could be overthrown for unjust rule wasn't introduced until St. Thomas Aquinas, an act which prior to him (and even well after) would have been viewed as taking up arms against the will of God; and even then it was the laws of the Church which would be the standard by which a king would be considered ruling in an unjust manner, not the opinions of his subjects.
The gargoyles' "government" also has no apparent nod to free will or self-determination. Goliath became the leader because Hudson said so, Brooklyn became second-in-command because Goliath said so, and in each case the other gargoyles appear to acquiesce unconditionally to these decisions. Even in mating, you mentioned in the panel that gargoyles aren't necessarily choosing mates as much as they are naturally drawn to one another - even in human rituals it's a subject of debate over just how much "choice" we have in when and with whom we fall in love.
While you've said that gargoyles are free to pursue their own hobbies and curiosities, it doesn't strike me that alone is enough to constitute an understanding of free will in the sense of making determinations about leadership in the way that the clones were being pressured to choose between the Labyrinth and Thailog.
So from what we saw in "Bash," where Lexington demands to know why the clones are choosing to help Thailog, and where Goliath says that "choice must extend to those who choose unwisely" - which is a very different concept than a basic, arbitrary choice between right and wrong - I have to ask: Where have Goliath and Lexington gotten the understanding to ask those questions?
Angela also presents an interesting case, because while she was raised by humans, she was raised by humans for whom it can't be assumed would have had the same understanding of free will as you and I do having grown up in a democratic society as it applies to personal choice, much less in making decisions of leadership. So is her command to Delilah founded more on her hatred of Thailog, or is she also making a case for free will; and if the latter, what informs that for her?
Touching on the same vein: Since 1996 would be the first U.S. election year that the gargoyles have really been exposed to - it seems to me that in 1994 the Manhattan clan was more curious about their new physical surroundings than cultural; and it was a midterm election anyway with much less media hype than a presidential cycle - what do the gargoyles of the Manhattan clan make of democracy, given their less than democratic heritage?
Free will seems essential to any discussion of Abrahamic religions... starting with the Garden of Eden. What God wants does not mean He FORCES you to do it, and I think even 10th century Catholics and Scotsmen got this idea whether or not they could articulate it.
And free will doesn't absolve us of personal debts, religious responsibilities, community obligations and the like. (Not to mention the laws of physics. Just because I have the free will to say I want to fly, doesn't mean I can.) Certainly Gargoyles would understand that. One ignores community contracts (even -- again -- if one cannot articulate these ideas) at the risk of banishment. (Cf. Iago, Demona or Yama.)
As for the articulation itself, well... I think we have demonstrated that Goliath is very well read. And that Lex is a very fast study. As for Angela... well, like her mother, she's not one to deny the right of the individual. I'll leave the rest to your interpretation.
Democracy probably seems to them to be the lesser of evils vis-a-vis humans. But I don't think of Gargoyle society as undemocratic per se. Leadership questions don't seem to vibe with democracy gargoyles-wise, but a good leader is sensitive to the needs of those he leads. Hudson chose Goliath, and as far as we know there was only one real objection to the choice (a clear minority). Goliath chose Demona as his second, with no objections that we know of. Goliath chose Brooklyn as his second with, again, NO objections... even from the two other gargoyles competing for the gig. So... draw your own conclusions. Gargoyles may just be better attuned to each other based on NON-verbal cues... They don't need to name things or spend a fortune on television advertisements to know what there community is looking for in a leader.
Or maybe not. Interesting questions. We should definitely raise these issues again next summer.
My review and observations of issue #5, SPOILER heavy.
Starting with the big picture first, this issue is by far the finest to date. It completes the first new canon arc with great pacing, excellent character interactions, and action! Action is always good. The art, too, is some of the best Gargoyles artwork since the series was on air, but then Karine has been drawing Gargoyles artwork since the series was on the air and Stephanie coloring since that time as well, so I will avoid making comparisons to the other artists who have contributed to the comic as newcomers to the property (to say nothing of my bias towards those artists).
Diving into it…
The cover illustration was probably the most eye-grabbing covers I've seen on my local (…ish) comic book store's shelves in a while. It's been a while since Goliath has been so obviously, severely wounded - other times he's tended to suck it up and stay in the fight, this time he was clearly out.
I will be honest that I did NOT catch Mary and Finella's appearance on the first read. It's just been so long since I've seen them that I passed them over; but once I did recognize them, I was glad to see them again - and took my anticipation of Timedancer up a notch.
I also liked how the Judge's opening line was repeated by Thailog under much different circumstances (and I am blanking on the literary term for this…), much like in "Invitation Only" where Thailog took off of the DJ's opening statement.
Jumping ahead to keep with the conflict, I know you said at the Gathering that Angela was speaking *literally* when she called Thailog a bastard, it still seems to me that Angela, of all the clan, would be the least likely to drop that term - because even as Demona's daughter, it's hard for me to perceive even Demona using terms like that. But then Gargoyles was a show for a younger audience, so only you know what the characters are saying "off-screen."
As for the battle itself, Thailog does seem to be having a grand old time going around and slashing the gargoyles and Elisa, really, unopposed - even Brooklyn doesn't seem to put up much of a fight. More here than at other points he comes off as one sadistic, well, bastard.
Delilah's appearance at the end of the battle raises some very interesting questions - which I ask in a post right behind this one - but what I find particularly interesting is just how dismissive she is of the Manhattan clan in favor of her clan. She shuts Angela down, doesn't hesitate to stick it to Goliath, despite his pain, and she doesn't help Brooklyn to his feet on her entrance but rather Malibu. Granted, she has every right to be mad at Goliath for using her, but she seemed pretty cold to him in "Invitation Only" to begin with; and it's not that I ever thought of Delilah as being a friend of the Manhattan clan's, but I also hadn't pictured her as being quite this cold as well.
That she dismisses Thailog too, then, seems to be perfectly in keeping with her character - or what we know of it to this point. Despite being programmed as the "perfect companion," she does not like to be thought of as other people's property.
And then there's the conclusion of the combat where Brooklyn is shot down once again. It can't be easy being Super-Goyle.
Of course, Brooklyn's grief can't overshadow Elisa and Goliath finally coming to terms with their feelings for each other, but what in my mind does seem to rise to the forefront is how Dr. Sato is feeling at that moment. Not only have gargoyles been revealed to him as more than a good foundation for a costume, but that one of his acquaintances has a deep relationship with one must be a lot to take in.
I almost hope that he's too concentrated on keeping Goliath's vitals up to not pick up on Elisa's relationship to him, but somehow I doubt that.
On the Illuminati arc…
So we learn some more about the structure of the Illuminati; not only in the number of members (I should have expected nothing less than for you to have chosen the mother of all numbers in Western culture, and yet I was still surprised) but that at least the senior membership of the Illuminati does have access to a pretty good health plan.
As I said in my review/observations of "Masque," the personal staffers of powerful people tend to have the best access to said powerful people, so why Quincy's revelation necessarily *impressed* Xanatos rather than made sense to him kind of raised my eyebrow.
Then there's Shari, who I was obviously very wrong about being "third wheel." Really I don't have much else to say except mea culpa, and that Thailog looked slightly less than happy that he might be taking marching orders from her, "executive assistant" or not (whereas she seemed fine with it).
Back to the big picture…
What I like most about this issue is that it brings out everything we had seen in the last two issues - the way characters were behaving and interacting with each other, their motives and thought processes, and it resolves a number of issues from "Invitation Only" and earlier while keeping things open for stories down the road. Combined with the last two issues, it finally feels like we've gotten a new *episode* of Gargoyles out rather than a few interesting stories.
Very well done.
Thanks. That was the intent.
Hi! My name is Rodrigo, I'm 28, from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. I got to know Gargoyles on TV down here. One of our networks showed the whole series back to back 2 or 3 times, I think, some time after it was already canceled in the US, or about to be. It was dubbed to Portuguese. Years later, with full grasp of the internet, I got to know more about it, and even managed to watch the whole series again, this time in English.
I was very happy when I heard about the series coming to DVD, and later about the new comic series. And even though I'm sad about the packs not progressing because of sales, that's kinda my question. You see, I know I could by the sets through Amazon.com. Thing is, even though I'm completely able to watch and understand them completely in English, it'd still be nice to have the option of the Portuguese dubbing, since it's how I got to know it in the fist place. Also, with dollar rates, the sets are almost twice as expensive to us down here. Of course, Disney considers risky to release the final set as it seems there weren't enough sales of the other 2, but wouldn't it help if they released it in other markets, International markets that may find difficult to acquire the Region 1 set? Do you believe is it possible for Disney to release the series in other regions, or is it your honest opinion that international fans should try their best to acquire the Region 1 sets?
Thank you very much for your time.
It's hard to imagine that Disney would invest it regional and international sets when they've decided that the property is a non-player. So if we don't get sales up on the merchandise they ARE releasing, it's hard to imagine them extending the release and spending money on alternatives.
I can't find issue #5 of the comic book anywhere and I know it was going to be released on July 18. I'm going crazy!!! Can you please tell ne why I can't find it!
Have you tried ordering it online from SLG or Amazon or Midtown Comics?
So, you recently said that "Goliath makes a bargain" on July 19th 1997. What do you mean? What bargain?
Seriously... why would you think I'd answer that now? It's not like I didn't know I was being cryptic.
1.Why did Thailog set the ransom demand in Double Jeopardy for $10,000,000? I mean why not more or why not less.
You pick a number that's the highest possible number you think you can get without causing the ransom-payer to balk -- for any reason. I'm sure Thailog did his research.
This is partially in response to Antiyonder's third question.
Is Brendon really that much of a jerk? I mean, clearly Margot is, but Brendon seems just scared of gargoyles. I mean, in issue #5 I first thought that it was him who informed Dr. Soto that his services were needed. Or was it Owen who called the doctor?
I'll leave that up to your interpretation.
In "A Long Way To Morning," Demona, Hudson and Goliath do not turn to stone until the clouds clear and the sunlight shines through - with the sun clearly well over the horizon, suggesting a bit of time has passed after sunrise. However, in "The Silver Falcon," Broadway turns to stone even though he is in a basement, cut off from the light of the sun, suggesting a circadian rhythm. Was it simply an animation error in "A Long Way To Morning," or is there a reason for this. (I assume it's the animation, but I was curious)
A little from column A, a little from column B.
Read issue 5 today. Looking at the pictures, it really does look like I'm watching/reading the cartoon. Comments and question (though not in that order).
1. Has the Illuminati numbering always been consistent? Or has there been say an occasional 19 "20 ranked members" or 20 "30 ranked members"?
2. I was pretty much expecting Morgan to be the one who finds out about the clan, but Dr. Sato was a good choice as well. Nice to see Robbins figuring out Hudson's secret as well.
3. Nice to see that there isn't any lost love between Brendan and Margot. Though I fear for the fate of the Gargoyle Universe if those two have children. Demona, Thailog, The Space Spawn, even Mab couldn't be that much of a threat to the planet. Just had to say that here.
4. Been meaning to bring this up sooner, but thought I'd ask given Brooklyn's costume choice. Out of any of the Manhattan Clan, which if any do you see enjoying a good comic book.
As far as the absense of voice actors go, at least any mystery theme characters showing up will be more of a challenge to figure out without vocal clues.
Looking forward to #6.
1. Not all slots are always filled.
2. Glad you liked it.
3. Then consider it said.
4. Brooklyn, Lex, Broadway, Hudson, Angela.
"mystery theme characters"...?