Nemi writes...

*TWACK!s herself on the head.*

I just remebered and I keep on forgeting.

I meant ot tell you a while ago but as I said I forgot.

Anyways, short but true story:

School made us enter a poetry contest.
I was among the Winners.
Result It gets Published and I lose all rights to the poem (I didn't even get a discount on the book!)

Relavance: Said Poem was inspired by Gargoyles, Macbeth's plight of living forever in patcular. (I had just seen the ep where he was dressed as the hunter and trying to end it all)

Anthology of Poety by Young Americans, 2000 eedition, page tem, the long one, by Rachel Lindenberg.

-Nemi, who is weird and forgetful

Laura 'ad astra' Ackerman writes...

I am terribly sorry about this, but for once I haven't read everything posted to the "waiting to be asked" page before posting this. Although I did do a quick scan. I am tying up my brother's line when he has the good grace to give me indefinite lone of his couch to save me from a monster commute. Of course if no one has asked yet, I am terribly sorry to have admitted that I haven't followed the rules:}

You just [9/5/00] posted: Intern Ideas

"Continuing our reprinting of old documents from the Gargoyles Development File.

This one was written by Regina Dixon, who was a college intern working at Disney TV Animation for the summer. Refer to previously posted documents to see what she was basing these ideas comedy springboards on.

I hate to say it, but in hindsight this seems like busy work to me. We hadn't even sold the show. We were a long way from needing story ideas. Still, I suppose it was good practice."

Is this complete? I have been keeping rather current and I don't remember specific episode ideas in the posting of old stuff.

As long as I am touching on my fear of missing anything.. you mentioned a chat on the 1rst of September (I think). Do you know if there is a transcript that can be posted? Or, Hi Gore! does Gore?

Goliath_994 (aka Michael Norton writes...

Greg, I was in the adult chat the night VP got you and most everybody else upset. I agree with your ramble on the subject 100%. I did not care much for VP's attitude, but what he said made a lot of sense. I didn't jump in and defend the guy because I really didn't want to alienate myself from the rest of fandom or offend you. But the more I thought about it the more I regretted not speaking up and am very happy with what you have said about the subject. At the time of the chat I was thinking things like "What if Frank Paur had other, conflicting ideas, why wouldn't they be considered canon?". Or "What if Disney had other ideas? They do own the show". I don't mean any offense by those statements, but they did go through my mind. That said, I really appreciate the time you spend answering my questions and certainly consider you the top authority on anything Gargoyles related. I hope and pray that Gargs gets back on the air and that you are the creative force behind it.

Aris Katsaris writes...

Tana> Well JRR Tolkien didn't exactly say that what he was writing was fact. More that (like Greg) he seemed to not be inventing, but rather delving into a subcreation - a universe that had some reality of its own, so that instead of inventing he just had to wait until he could see what had 'really' happened...

Todd Jensen writes...

A little comment-ramble-reply to your latest ramble (on whether your ideas for the Master Plan count as fanfic or not).

I certainly agree with you that it isn't really official or canon until it reaches the television screen (or whatever Disney's official medium for "Gargoyles" becomes next, when and if it returns). In fact, we've seen evidence enough already that things may get changed in the process of actually creating the stories (witness the exec who suggested that Goliath ask the Magus to place the "sleep until the castle rises above the clouds" spell upon him, rather than having the Magus make the offer first). But all the same, I do find myself leaning more towards your version of things - not just because you said them, but often because they simply make the most amount of sense to me.

One example that I will give here is the "Jon Canmore = Castaway" idea, which you had in mind in writing "The Journey", but which "The Goliath Chronicles" didn't pick up on, making Castaway just some villainous businessman after the gargoyles for no apparent reason other than "motiveless malignity". I believe in Castaway and Jon Canmore being the same, not just because you said so, but because it makes more sense to me that way. For one thing, it gives a good explanation for why Castaway acts the way that he does in "The Journey", his reason for hating the gargoyles so much and wanting to ruthlessly kill Goliath; take away the "He's really Jon Canmore" bit, as your successors at The Goliath Chronicles did, and he becomes more of an unsolvable mystery. Also, I noticed a few clues to that in "The Journey" - his name, for example (the moment that I heard the name "Castaway" the first time that I watched "The Journey", I automatically thought of the Canmores, since they'd used surnames beginning with hard C's throughout "Hunter's Moon" for their aliases), and also the fact that, if you look closely enough at his Quarryman badge, you can see the three red scratches of the Hunter protruding from beneath it. But at any rate, I do feel that, even without your own words, the notion that Castaway is really Jon makes the most convincing explanation for him.

zippysquir@aol.com writes...

Justa word of caution concerning Mary Mack's summary of The Phantom Menace: some people don't know how to enjoy a movie.
Basically, she wanted the movie equivalent of this: "Take everything you had planned for all 65/66 episodes of Gargoyles and make just ONE episode."

These idiots exist everywhere; beware of them. Bad advice can be the killer.

Watch the movie, forget any opinions but your own, and realize the following Darth Maul created with just ten minutes of screen time.

P.S. Luke Skywalker got a medal for blowing up the Death Star and killing somewhere in the neighboorhood of a million people who were just doing their job.

Aris Katsaris writes...

Btw, LSZ's "Zeroth" was a reference to some of Isaac Asimov's novels - mainly "Robots and Empire" if I remember correctly where the Zeroth Law comes to be added to the first Three Laws of Robotics. I assume you haven't read it? :-)

Blaise writes...

Gotta say, I LOVE reading these early documents of GARGOYLES.

I was rather surprised that Amp had originally been two separate characters (Nick and Trouble), and that there was a second precursor to Lexington (Campbell, I think it was).
I was also surprised to find that Dakota's own precursor, Georgette was not originally the leader, but instead the "should-be-leader" character. You had mentioned that the reason you changed Dakota to Demona was that she was too bland and uninteresting to be the leader of a comic team. Why was she made the full leader when the cast was slimmed? Do you think her more "serious" character would have worked in the original role of Georgette?

Human-wise: I never even suspected the inclusion of Sidero, though it sounds like it could have made for some fun conversations. Xavier sounds every bit as Igthorn-ish as I imagined him to be (I don't know why, but just from your original description of him, I thought of Igthorn). And already, Morgan has gone through THREE changes of profession--before she was named she was a lab person working for Xavier, then she became a curator, and finally an archeologist. Actually, after that, she became BOTH of the latter. This woman just wanted to be everything, didn't she?

Owen...I can't help but smile at the image of an aardvark plunking away at a computer or hitting on a woman.

I have always been interested in how you guys originally developed the series. I remember asking the question of the comedic counter-parts of the characters way back when ASK GREG first went on-line. Now I'm learning more of it than I ever dreamed existed.

Thanks. I mean it.

Todd Jensen writes...

Oh, and thank you for the "Owen as an aardvark" memo (this is one part of the original comedy development that I especially rememebered - I once mentioned it in a Gargoyles newsgroup, in fact - and promptly sent one of the other members into shock over it). It was interesting getting to see the "original draft" character descriptions for Elisa, Owen, and Xanatos (as Morgan, Owen, and Xavier).

And yep, I've got to agree with you that Xavier would have been annoying in a serious drama as a major villain, but works nicely as the main villain of a comedy series (just like Duke Igthorne, whom I recall quite well).

Kelly L Creighton / Kya White Sapphire writes...

ramble:

morgan and dakota as good buddies? o.O ahh?

seriously- thanx for all the pre-gargs info. i love to see what the show evolved from, and laugh at all the close calls ^_^ i still cant get over the pic of RALPH from g2k. oh my GHOD. the show wouldnt have gotten the respect that it did, and the following, if it had stayed in the gummy bears phase. im sure of it. (no offense, but gummybears didnt have that following, and i dont think gargs would have either)

*gets off her soap box* ^_-

Aris Katsaris writes...

To Duncan Devlin who said: "I don't quite understand the response. From my experience, not ALL things are true."

Let me just paraphrase a sentence of Terry Pratchett: "All things are true, for a given value of 'true' "

Dracolich writes...

By the time you read this, you will probably have the answer, but just in case:

A poster has been asking you questions about the "connection" of the fey. I beleive what he or she is referring to is what powers or forces they are associated with. Example: Aphrodite, love. Seth(or Set), storms and evil. I hope this helps. See 'ya again! P.S. I'm shortening my name.

Entity writes...

Hi,

I'd just like to back Mary Mack's summary/review of The Phantom Menace. It was everything she described it as.

I'd also like to voice my pleasure at the sight of Wrath of Khan in your list of favorite movies. It's in mine, too, but most of the time that film seems to get jipped. Either the person's someone who has an inexplicable (and I venture to say shallow) distaste for Star Trek, or they'd rather claim First Contact as the hands-down best film, ignoring the originals.

Incidentally, I thought First Contact was a travesty. Maybe think "First Knight" for Arthurian Legend, to get an idea.

Kelly L Creighton / Kya White Sapphire writes...

*reads your post about needing a tape recording of her voice* well, i work at an 800 number. ill send it to gorebash, and you can feel free to call me any time. ^_^ im the receptionist, so unless im at lunch (generally between 11:45 and 12:45 eastern) ill be the one to answer the phone!

Matthew Smith writes...

hey Greg, what's up? Well, this isn't really a Gargoyle related question, it's more about one of the movies you mention being one of your favorites: Ghostbusters. That is one of my all time favorite movies. I see you didn't seem to like the sequel. I rather enjoyed GB2, heck I bought both movies last weekend, but I guess i can see why you didn't like it. I mean walking Statue of Liberty, "Mood Slime" that responded to good/bad vibes...ect...
My passion for Ghostbusters goes back to my when I was 5. Oh I remember religiously watching "The Real Ghostbusters" every day before kindergarten. Me and my brother used to dress up in old pyjammas, which our mother altered to have the Ghostbuster logo on the shoulders, and would run around the neighbourhood pretending to "bust" ghosts.
Anyway, back to the movie. My mother must have hated that movie with a passion, simply because it was the only thing we'd rent whenever we'd go to our grand-parents house (who had a VCR when we didn't) must have seen the movie like 60 times back then, and that was before I could appreaciate the witty humor, let alone understand the plot.
Last year, I watched the movie for the first time in about 10 years. I never realized excactly how clever of a movie it was. It was hillarious, yet not off the wall not to be taken seriously. Even the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man provided a serious enough threat.
Come to think of it, this actually is a Gargoyles question. Gozer's Terror Dogs, the one's who possessed Dana and Louis reminded me an awful lot of Bronx. Did this in anyway inspire you to create the Gargoyle Beasts? Also, the Terror Dogs came to life by breaking out out of it's stone shell, much like the way Gargoyles do. Is this simply a coincidence? I remember you stating that your inspirations for Gargoyles were Gummi Bears, actual stone gargoyles, Hill Street Blues. But is it possible that Ghostbusters is among one of the inspirations for Gargoyles? Or am I just making wild speculations in hoping that one of my favorite movies helped inspire one of my favorite animated shows?

Todd Jensen writes...

This is a sort of response to your comments on doing or not doing a Gargoyles/super-hero crossover of any sort. You mentioned that you didn't see it happening, short of a crossing between parallel universes, because the Gargoyles Universe and the super-hero universes of DC and Marvel Comics are very different in style. From what I know of mainstream super-heroes (which, I will confess, isn't all that much), I can certainly agree with you.

Take Batman, for example. The Batman Universe is clearly different enough from the Gargoyles Universe. In the Batman Universe, the "super-villains" are more out in the open, with the public all too aware of them. In the Gargoyles Universe, the "super-villains" are more low-profile; the general public don't know that Demona, Thailog, Oberon's Children, and the Illuminati actually exist. They know about Xanatos and Macbeth, but only in terms of their public personas; they know about the Pack, but only as "TV actors who went bad" - I haven't seen any indications that the general public know as yet about Jackal and Hyena being cyborgs now or Wolf being a mutant wolf-man. They don't even know for certain about the gargoyles until the end of "Hunter's Moon Part Three" - and even then all that they know is that the gargoyles exist, and nothing more than that.

In conventional super-hero universes, the weird and paranormal is very public and high-profile, known to the public. In the Gargoyles Universe, the weirdness exists just as surely, but is far more "covered up". For this reason, I can't seriously imagine Batman or Superman or Spiderman or the X-Men existing in the same universe as the gargoyles.

Todd Jensen writes...

This is a comment inspired by your recent answers to the "Tempest" question. While you never did manage to get "The Tempest" into Gargoyles outright (and I found that a pity, for my own part), I've sometimes thought that Angela does resemble Miranda a little (in the same way that, to me, Thailog resembles Edmund in "King Lear" and Demona Shylock) - there's the same general concept there of a sweet, innocent girl being brought up on a mysterious magical island and filled with wonder at the outside world (Miranda's "brave new world" lines strike me as being just as suitable for Angela as they were for the original speaker). I just thought that you might be interested.

Mary Mack writes...

So, you didn't see The Phantom Menace.

SPOILERS

Lucky guy. That movie got me all bent out of shape for lots of reasons, and I think some of them stem from being a Gargoyles addict. I respect nonhumans. In Phantom Menace, the nonhumans were either villains (the inept flunkie-type, at that) or stupid as dirt and present only for comic relief. Anybody who could possibly save the day had to be human and under twenty-one, and somebody thought that having a nine-year-old boy destroy a battleship full of sentient beings was a GOOD idea. (Okay, so the kid grew up to be Darth Vader, but really, they practically threw him a party for mass murder!) Qui-Gon Jinn, our first real look at a Jedi Knight in his prime, cheated at dice. How very, very honorable of him. Darth Maul, who had the potential to be scary and evil and really, really neat, talked a little, did some impressive acrobatics (played by Toad from X-Men, now there's a good movie), and died. Seven minutes of screen time, tops. Folks mention racial stereotypes in the film; they're right. I wondered why those trade federation guys didn't just say "Ah, so!" and get it over with. Or why Jar-Jar didn't offer Obi-Wan a hit of whatever he was smoking. The direction was minimal, the dialog weak, and most of the actors seem too scared of Mr. Lucas to improvise. The special effects were eye-popping, but hardly ever seemed to have anything to do with the plot. One character is introduced solely as comic relief (Jar-Jar), and he has no witty repartee, just slapstick that occurs beacuse he's the stupid nonhuman.

Basically, you missed a gaping wad of nothing by missing Phantom Menace, and you're luckier than I am. That movie managed to sour me on Star Wars as a whole-- pre-Phantom, I'd read every book, bought action figures, comics, expensive expandable lightsabres... post-Phantom, zip. Gargoyles, Star Wars fiction, Star Trek, Sci-Fi and Fantasy books all gave me an appreciation for good stories where the villains were interesting, the plots thick, and the heroes not neccesarily caucasian humans. The Phantom Menace was bad. It was, to Star Wars, what the Goliath Chronicles was to Gargoyles. Only shorter.

Man Mountain writes...

Greg, You seemed confused on LSZ's use of "Zeroth." I first read it as ZEH-roth but then realized he meant
ZEE-rothe as in 0th, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Is that what confused you as well or am I just... um, dumb?

LSZ writes...

As to the Zeroth thing; I'm not sure if you used it or not, but it seemed a logical thing to call the pre-First Race; thought of this while reading Asimov on his Three and then Four Laws of Robotics..

Todd Jensen writes...

I just read the latest "early development" memo. I found it another fun "behind the scenes" peek at the early history of "Gargoyles".

The two bits that particularly stood out to me were:

1. The gargoyles fondness for partying (which was also mentioned in the earlier memos). That obviously pre-dated Goliath's introduction into the project, given that I have a very hard time imagine Goliath partying. The trio (whose proto-versions WERE in the original comedy development, I recall), yes, but Goliath - I don't even want to make the attempt.

2. Xanatos's original as the several-times-great-nephew to the evil wizard (the original of the Archmage, the Magus, or both?). The thing that stood out to me here was that the nephew character struck me from the description as sounding like a conventional cartoon villain rather than the very memorable and convention-flouting David Xanatos. It makes it amazing when you think over what this character would eventually become.

I'm looking forward to the rest of the memos, to see what other treasures they might contain.

Ambrosia writes...

Okay, this is a response to that S.T. Coleridge reference and suspending disbelief.
I've been blessed with a really great English teacher who I loved so much in Freshman Comp 101, that I took him again for Literature and again in Survey of Shakespeare. Last spring semester, he lectured a bit about how to read fiction effectively. In my notes I have written down:
"be imaginatively involved in the work" That's Mr. Farrell and not Coleridge. He then quoted Coleridge saying reading fiction should be "a willing suspension of disbelief." In other words, while reading about a giant dragon, you're not supposed to think to yourself, "there's no such thing as a giant dragon." In a work of fiction, you put yourself into that world... like a certain universe we all know and love.
Just thought I'd clarify.
On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with suspending belief either...

Calvina Richardson writes...

I just want to say that Gargyles is one of my alltime favorite cartoons and I am 25. I just want to know is there
a time or place that I can view Gargoyles outside of toon disney since it is not available in my area.

Scott Iskow writes...

You asked me (warily) why I didn't like "Leader of the Pack" as much as other episodes. Oh, gee, where do I start? ;)

First off, let me say that I didn't hate it. In fact, I think I liked it originally. This episode, unfortunately, had a nasty habit of being constantly rerun to the point of nausea. I'd get sick of the *best* of episodes if it kept being shown over and over. It eventually came to a point where I'd turn off the TV as soon as I'd hear the music that began the ep, (on a good day, I'd get through the entire first act before shutting it off).

Another thing that didn't quite work for me was the animation. Some parts looked good. Other parts looked like a sloppy version of Darkwing Duck or Tiny Toons. Just how big were Lexington's eyes, anyhow?

I also didn't buy that Lexington could be so vengeful. Didn't seem in character.

It was a nice touch to have Brooklyn giving him the "don't be vengeful" lecture, but later episodes depict Brooklyn jumping the gun just like Lex does here. Similarly, (a la "Hunter's Moon 1"), Brooklyn endangers the clan by giving up the element of surprise. Awful reckless for someone who both recognizes the pitfalls of vengeance and is the second-in-command.

Also, it may just be that I didn't like this episode as much as others because it was a Pack episode. The Pack is the closest thing the gargs have to cliched villains. I liked "Thrill," "Brother's Keeper," and "Upgrade," but disliked others like "Leader," and "The Green." Maybe I just find the Pack inaccessible as characters.

Criticism aside, I'm still a big fan of the show as a whole. There are an extremely small number of episodes that I thought were mediocre, (looking forward to your ramble on "Monsters", BTW). An excellent show like "Gargoyles" can get away with a few lesser-quality eps.

"Gargoyles" wasn't perfect. It was only damned good.

Now, before I offend thee further, I shall depart most hastily.

<leaves smoke trail in his wake>

puck40 writes...

Puck40's top five favorite episode list. Yeah yeah, I'm sure no one out there cares. But I'm telling for those people who are bored and just want something to read.... yeah thats it. So I'll put a quote in for each one that I think makes the episode *the* episode. (mind you, this isn't necessarilly the order I like the episodes in)

Enter Macbeth.
Why? look at my post praising if if you want. But this quote should justify all that is good.
~~"Its not you I'm after, your just a pawn, I want your QUEEN" - "Queen? We have no Queen" - "No?! then what about... Demona" - "You know Demona?" - "KNOW HER?! (doesn't Macbeth laugh so cool right here?) I *named* her... if I captured you, the last of your kind, she will come to free you, its *her* I want." - (twisted Goliath Thailog like laughter, guess he does know how to laugh maniacally) "Then you are a FOOL! She is our enemy... she wouldn't lift a talon to save us."

The Edge.
This almost doesn't make it due to the fact I hate broadway and he got lots of action shots. But ah... Xanatos.
~~"I was a little worried that I might be getting soft. But I was able to stand up against Goliath, the greatest warrior alive. I'd say I've still got the edge."~~
If that line right there doesn't clench people into the episode... you all suck. His triumphs over losses. How his goal is always usually a small one that no one knows about, versus the fight that he fights. With freeing the pack and Coyote its all about Fox. Everything else is just subterfuge, yeah he kicks ass. And this episode was him, just wanting a self esteem boost. Something so trivial yet massively important! Spoon.

The Mirror.
Hey.... its Puck. its a really *fun* episode, and massively well written and acted besides the "cheesy" one liners. they were here... like the one that went something like "my strength has never depended on brute force, but on true friends" blah... or... "with Demona involved its more than (insert word lex or brook said here) its dangerous." But it was also the true *start* of the relationship with Elisa/Goliath. Very cool. which quote to choose from though... not any of the three bad ones... oh heck
~~"It was a ROMP indeed!" - "Spare me your gloating just go...." - "With out giving you something in return for all this merriment? Puck is many things, but never a poor guest!" - "Please.... Leave." - (an annoyed Puck right here) "You wanted to be your gargoyle self by night, and *not* stone by day? So be it."~~ (am sure everyone knows the spell by heart if your actually reading stuff in the Ask Greg.)

Vows.
The episode on my top five didn't use to be Vows, it was Avalon Part 2. Until I realized, when you go Time Travel wise... sure David Warners cool. But this episode so takes the cake. Again Xanatos is the "anti-hero", wouldn't say villian for this one. Whats his goal? To make sure he's rich, sure... but above all. He wants to impress his dad. Its such a childish thing, wanting to impress your dad, it always sticks with you. You don't want to be the dissapointment. So this was his alterior motive. And Petros... Clencher for this episode has to be this quote which by far gave me goosebumps first time I heard it.
~~"Whats this?" "A simple American penny, its not worth much now but in a thousand years.... Who knows? Its my wedding present to you, because its *all* you seem to care about."~~
yeah

And last but not least..

Future Tense.
Come on, you all knew it'd be here. I first saw it and was like... god... this is is so wrong but good!! and the end with Puck it was like. heheh, kickass! This episode was good for so many multiple reasons. The future depiction... the epic storyness. Xanatos killing Alexander, Hudson the first Hero of the war. That was SOOO cool. Lex the villian, Brooklyn punching out Goliath. Goliath showing he semi still had feelings for her by the end, hey... this was more the "old" her afterall, ne ne Greg? But as I said just above... I hated broadway. But I swear... this episode almost made me cry. The quote.
~~"Hold on Broadway... if you can last until sunrise you'll be healed." - "ohhh.... yes..... the sun. Can you see it Goliath... its.. beautiful...." - ".... goodbye.. my friend.."~~
(sniffle) that ones in the Avalon Archives.

Okay okay. the main reason I put this post up was to see if anyone else would put up there favorite top 5 or so episodes and "why" they were there favorite.

I'm gonna end this with one more quote since I've been doing them throughout... This one shows... that this show in general was more than a normal cartoon. It had depth.. continuity.. emotion... I give you the quote I think sums up that this series was truely unique.

Katherine: "Oh Magus... what have yae done?"
Magus: "Princess.. I-"
Katherine: "shhh... lay still now.. we'll get yae back tae th' palace an the-"
Magus: "n-no.... no katherine. i think i shall like to stay here.."
Goliath: "I owe you a great debt Magus"
Magus: "yooou... but, i cursed your clan"
Goliath: "You saved my children"
Magus: "hnn... oh I'm so tired... i think I would.... like to resst."
Katherine: "Yae *caenot" leave mae now."
Magus: "neveerr.. my princess.."
Katherine: "nooo Magus"
~and cue the music played over Katherine crying~
~on a note, most of these quotes are downloadable at http://avalon.gargoyles-fans.org~